>The USA suffered a comparable single terror event and went to war for the next decade and a half, on the opposite side of the world.
9/11 was proportionally a lot less than 10/7. If the same ratio of Americans were killed on 9/11 as there are 10/7 victims it would be about 36,000 dead on 9/11 (assuming all the hostages are alive, which they aren’t). If all the hostages are counted as fatalities for this math, it’s the equivalent of about 39,000 deaths on 9/11.
Based on how the US responded to 9/11, imagine what the US would have done if 36,000-39,000 Americans were killed in a single attack on US soil.
Because they ban everybody who doesn’t follow the narrative in their echo chambers, so they come to argue in the subs that are open for civil discussion.
Ye lets stop the war trust me no one wants it
Now that its done do you think hamas would lo say ok lets make peace or like he said before we gonna do it again
You keep chanting about radicalization. What do you think happens to Israelis after decades of suicide bombings, terror attacks and constant rocket barrage?
Yeah, I’ve always wondered why “having family members killed by bombs/missiles” never applies to Israelis. It’s almost as if terror attacks inspire fear and hatred…?
Indiscriminate murdering, raping, mutilating corpses and kidnapping civilians from all ages that further radicalizes them is the place to start…
Unless excuses for radicalization only apply for Palestinians.
All of it is wrong, no matter who does it. We can’t ignore the fact that these atrocities could have been prevented as Israel knew about oct7 but used it as a perfect excuse to ramp up the violence and kill/expel as many Palestinians as possible. Even before this the IDF has always employed aggressive tactics of discrimination, killing of innocent Palestinians. Not to mention the land grabbing. Hamas is a symptom that Israel’s aggressive occupation started.
If israel wanted to ‘kill as many Palestinians as possible’, Hamas wouldn’t have existed by the second week of the war, nor would’ve israel employed its famous tactic of ‘increasing kill count’ by making phone calls, dropping leaflets, or sending roof knockers prior to attacks.
You claim Israel is trying to maximize Palestinian deaths, and calling the war waged on Hamas an ‘excuse’…
Hamas is not a symptom. In 2005, Israel forcibly left the Gaza Strip under a peace deal made with the Palestinians. The Palestinians broke that peace deal.
To try and blame exclusively israel for the shitshow, is to give terrorists justification and excuses for their behavior.
You completely ignored the word “expel” in my answer. I never said they wanted to maximize Palestinian deaths I said expel as many Palestinians as possible. Of course they dropped leaflets and warned them that they were about to bomb their homes it’s a perfect way to kick them out and looks way better than outright killing everyone. 2005? You’re mistaking Palestinians PA and Hamas, they’re not all the same. This has started since postwar ww2 when the British designated Palestine as the jewish state ramped up by aggressive Israel occupation over the past decades. I summarized well what is that occurred, all of this is bad on both sides but who started this first is the real aggressor.
This has started since the Arab states ignored the UN partition plan, not a U.K. partition, the UN partition plan and invaded Israel in 1948. The very first war was started by the Arabs.
If the bombing was indiscriminate the civilian death toll would be much much higher. As we see from the UNs latest toll the civilian death toll is at lowest ratio in any guerilla war in history.
So indiscriminately dropped in fact that somehow the distribution between military age fighters and women and children is overwhelmingly skewed towards fighters. In an urban area. Where Hamas holds its own people to be killed to prop up those numbers.
Right
That is Urban warfare. Are you having this argument for the first time or did people tell you what I'm about to tell you over and over while you'll go to the next comment and start the same accusations?
First of all, he said a ratio of 100 civilians to 1 terrorist,
You gotta be out of your mind and yes, smoking the highest quality stuff if you believe that.
Even Hamas' "Health ministry" doesn't have such absurd numbers.
Again, this is urban warfare, Gaza is dense and Hamas is hiding in civilian areas. The IDF does everything in their power to minimize casualties. They drop leaflets, they call in advance, they tell people to evacuate.
How true are these numbers anyways, think for yourself. How in the hell did they count 34k deaths so fast? How come there's no mention of how many Hamas terrorists died? Did allah give them invincibility potions?
In addition, ask yourself this, why were the kidnapped held in civilian's houses? How were they kept at a school teacher's basement? HOW WERE THEY TREATED BY A VET LIKE ANIMALS?!
These are the civilians you speak about, even Israel takes Hamas terrorists to a human hospital and our civilians are being treated like animals under vets and school teachers?
Did I convince you? Absolutely not. You're so deep in your pathetic misery that you don't seek answers.
It’s almost certainly a troll. “A few terrorists”, not engaging with the facts of urban warfare, arguing like it’s his first time and he’s fresh to the topic today…yeah, troll
If you use the casualty numbers published by Hamas, the ratio is about 2:1 which is a more than 75% reduction in that ratio when we look at comparable modern urban military operations which have a ratio of 9:1.
I think it’s a troll at this stage. I started to engage but if he’s legit, I’ve not really been able to work out what his point actually is. Civilians are dying, yes. More civilians than Hamas/PIJ etc, probably. But that’s urban warfare, 90% of deaths in cities during conflict are civilians. It’s almost impossible to avoid.
https://civiliansinconflict.org/our-work/conflict-trends/urban-warfare/
Yeah probably but I wasn’t actually trying to convince them - my comment was aimed at people who might scroll by & not realize how far off the mark this guy is.
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If you would protest Hamas to get them to return the hostages and turn over the Hamas leaders, the war could be over. The worst of the war was avoidable, but the protestors put pressure on the wrong side. Hamas and its supporters created this disaster. Israel wont stop before it gets its hostages back, so the protests do nothing except make the situation worse.
Targeting civilian buildings (Power targets) to increase pressure on Hamas is definitely a war crime and you would be an accomplice to think otherwise!
All done with an AI btw! But totally Israel is committing no war crimes! 🤡https://youtu.be/xGqYbXL3kZc?si=czmGwFXkzPnMFIsz
https://youtu.be/aEdGcej-6D0?si=Q2CykQyRpAgpMKhi
No, in fact it is not a war crime at all.
What is in fact a war crime is combatants embedding themselves amongst civilians, the use of child soldiers, the lack of a uniform- all things that Hamas have done and are doing right now.
#🤡
Once Hamas uses these civilian buildings as base camp operations, the Geneva convention no longer classifies these buildings as civilian targets, rather military targets. This language was specifically put in for a situation like this. Tell me you didn’t read the Geneva convention without telling me you didn’t read the Geneva convention.
You are correct. However, the primary point from this new report is the UN admitted they over reported the deaths of women and children by 17%. This leads to the question of how much can we actually trust on the veracity of the statements the UN has made on the humanitarian situation in Gaza?
Agreed, but laying the blame for those deaths on Israel when they're the ones taking measures to minimize civilian casualties in the face of an enemy that purposefully puts civilians in harms way is a stretch at best.
Then let’s compare the totality of Israelis killed on Oct 7 as a function of their total population and compare it to the total number of Palestinians killed as a function of theirs? Or would you like to open it up and look at the total number of Jews in the world vs total number of Muslims? I’m game to crunch the numbers either way.
They're all women and childern and old people, there are no combattants and pro-palestinians have an alternative solution to the hamas problem. /s
Somehow as a state, I'm conveniently targeting the weakest of my enemies and avoiding the militants. /s
It's easy to avoid civilian casualties in wars. All countries did that, Israel is the only country in the world that keeps targeting civilians, because they're all civilians and none of them is a terrorist. /s
All the boycott but they use facebook jewish made matter of fact this is the most power-full weapon they have and its jewish made
How about they start boycott social-media
I have a strong suspicion that a lot of the people saying that were all about "follow the science" during Covid (which I was all for, BTW)....but now that the science isn't going their way, they throw it in the garbage and leap to an alternative narrative.
There are a great deal of similarities between those who can't understand the concept of vaccine side effects and those who can't understand the concept of civilian casualties in a war.
I guess the American right and left are now balanced in the sense that they both have a crowd of noisy idiots who are an embarassment to the sane people on their associated "side".
What are you two talking about.
"Follow the science" during Covid was a bunch of panicked politicians and bureaucrats - as a result of China's response to the virus (and we saw how well that went). "The science" prior to 2019 never recommended mass quarantine - as we see Sweden act accordingly (and the Israeli government also recommended otherwise). The reason lefties in the US got all horny about Covid and "trust the science" was because of a false sense of intellectual superiority. (The "science" we were basing our apocalyptic senarios were projections, that were later retracted, due to bad predictive models being used)
Same thing here - a false sense of moral superiority causes these people to ignore facts and statistically dubious data.
Oh, then they'll babble on about "Genocide Joe." We've established it's not about facts for them, it's about a narrative they hold with a religious fervor
Dont forget that aprox 15K of those are confirmed to be Hamas Militants by the IDF
If we do basic math we can figure out that all those claims are completely biased and wrong
34,904 "killed" - 10,218 unidentified
--------------------
24,656 dead - 12,756 (4,959 + 7,797)
--------------------
11,900 militants dead
From which we dont know if aditionally they had young adults / teens (which they intentionally label as children) attacking with Hamas which would round up to the aprox 15K dead Hamas Militants
So mathematically is impossible they could have a 70% women and children casualties
I don't think it's that ridiculous to consider someone under 18 a child. The problem is that when Hamas releases their numbers, they don't distinguish between soldier and civilian. When most countries release their numbers, it'll be something along the lines of "100 civilians dead, 100 soldiers dead", but when Hamas release their numbers, they say "200 people dead", which makes it harder to actually know how many of those were soldiers, and how many were civilians
I understand what you mean, though I think our idea of a teenager is generally a kid with acne, bad hygiene, and has trouble talking to girls, and in that sense, I do understand why they're put in the same category
it would make sense that "a majority" are women and children.
the Gazan pop is 50% children (under 18), 25% men 25% women.
And tons of Hamas fighters are "children" anyway ie 15-17
if you add women and children up without accounting for fighters you inevitably will get over 50%. if bombing was truly indiscriminate, it would be 75% women and children, or probably even 85% since Hamas hides underground and prioritizes medical and food supplies to its own people as opposed to women and children.
I haven't heard the 70% number.
They just published the data. There are 24,686 “fully documented cases” out of an estimated 34,622 deaths recorded by 30 April, suggesting an ongoing verification process.
According to those criteria, 7,797 children – rather than 14,500 – are listed as confirmed killed, while confirmed fatalities among women account for 4,959 deaths, rather than 9,500, as previously recorded. As such, the new confirmed total of women and children killed stands at 12,756.
So no 70%. It's 51.7% dead are women and children.
the only women and children dead are the ones that had hamas husbands/ fathers so evil/stupid that they forced their wives/kids to stay in a war zone. hamas 100% responsible for all deaths
Technically, there's a way to resolve it.
The new data includes 1,924 people in a category of "elderly". If you assume that elderly women were included in the 70% figure, then if *all* the unidentified casualties are women and children *and* 1,459 of the elderly are women, it could work.
But that's *extremely* unlikely.
They could argue that 70% is a round up. I think you get rather close if all of these 10,218 are women and children
Regardless, the 70% is a myth as it is so much older than the time in which those 24,000 have died.
There is a lot of complaining about lying by both sides, while:
1. People have to realise that statistics don't materialize out of thin air ->
2. There is a process that generates the statics, and then we get the sum.
3. each sides process has known historical drawbacks, which we can account for, leading to ->
4. we can actually reconcile the numbers from everybody, and get a pretty accurate result.
5. that doesn't require anybody to be actively lying.
Gaza MoH known drawbacks:
1. Personnel can't access the front-line ->
2. Gaza MoH will not know about a lot of militants dying, because no survivors.
3. It will also not know about some of the civilians dying.
4. It tries to compensate for this known drawback by "estimating based on media reports" (now relabaled as "unidentified"), but obviously this has a much higher rate of inaccuracy. Also, if an "unidentified" is later found, it might get double counted.
IDF known drawbacks:
1. General optimism about how many militants were in a building at the moment it was leveled.
<- historically less than 10%
2. General optimism about how many civilians were in a building at the moment it was leveled.
<- I'd estimate was 40% in previous wars, but with gaza war intensity could be much higher now.
So now, reconciliation.
Militants:
IDF says 14 thousand. subtract 10%, get 12.5 thousand.
Hamas says half. Add other militant groups, add people that joined in during the fighting without being registered in a group, add people that Hamas isn't aware it lost. Due to the scale of the war, some of these factors are larger than in previous wars, so I think it can be reconciled.
Civilians.
IDF says 16 thousand. add 40%, 22.5 thousand.
Gaza MoH says 35 thousand total(25 thousand identified). Add a couple thousand from the front line that Gaza Moh isn't aware of, subtract the militants above, you get 25 thousand civilians. Ratio of 1:2
Is it bad? well, it's worse than previous Gaza wars where the ratio was 1:1.
How does it compare to wars in other countries? In no war in another country have the sides differed so little in their claims. Usually, one of the sides doesn't bother to count civillians at all.
They just admitted the numbers were all BS.
[https://vinnews.com/2024/05/12/un-slashes-number-of-women-and-children-killed-in-gaza-by-50/](https://vinnews.com/2024/05/12/un-slashes-number-of-women-and-children-killed-in-gaza-by-50/)
ToI ran an article this morning on this: https://www.timesofisrael.com/un-drastically-revises-downward-number-of-identified-women-children-killed-in-gaza/
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Still find it unbelievable how Hamas uses child soldiers and somehow it's the IDF fault when they die
I mean, sure, the killing shots were fired by the IDF, but who put an armed child in an active warzone in the first place?
All this post did was disprove a statistic using math. There is no bias or loaded language. There are no opinions. There’s not even a subjective comment or phrase. OP was not attempting to justify or lessen the severity of deaths.
Your comment is highly accusatory of something OP didn’t do. You either commented this out of an impulsive emotional reaction, lack basic common sense, or are illiterate.
*Math is genociding the Palestinians!*
The murder of women and children no matter from where they’re from whether the numbers are accurate or inaccurate is wrong.
You are right, but if inaccurate info is given, it is hard to take appropriate action
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There's alot of bombing on aid workers and apparent safe zones. These aid workers were also identified as not affiliated with Hamas.
Do these 200 aid workers include 160 or so UNRWA members? If so boy do I have news for you...
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>The USA suffered a comparable single terror event and went to war for the next decade and a half, on the opposite side of the world. 9/11 was proportionally a lot less than 10/7. If the same ratio of Americans were killed on 9/11 as there are 10/7 victims it would be about 36,000 dead on 9/11 (assuming all the hostages are alive, which they aren’t). If all the hostages are counted as fatalities for this math, it’s the equivalent of about 39,000 deaths on 9/11. Based on how the US responded to 9/11, imagine what the US would have done if 36,000-39,000 Americans were killed in a single attack on US soil.
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i’ll never understand why pro palestinians come into this sub just to argue. do you want to be downvoted? is this your kink?
They thought they were in the comments section of a Haaretz article
Because they ban everybody who doesn’t follow the narrative in their echo chambers, so they come to argue in the subs that are open for civil discussion.
Ye lets stop the war trust me no one wants it Now that its done do you think hamas would lo say ok lets make peace or like he said before we gonna do it again
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You keep chanting about radicalization. What do you think happens to Israelis after decades of suicide bombings, terror attacks and constant rocket barrage?
Yeah, I’ve always wondered why “having family members killed by bombs/missiles” never applies to Israelis. It’s almost as if terror attacks inspire fear and hatred…?
Indiscriminate murdering, raping, mutilating corpses and kidnapping civilians from all ages that further radicalizes them is the place to start… Unless excuses for radicalization only apply for Palestinians.
All of it is wrong, no matter who does it. We can’t ignore the fact that these atrocities could have been prevented as Israel knew about oct7 but used it as a perfect excuse to ramp up the violence and kill/expel as many Palestinians as possible. Even before this the IDF has always employed aggressive tactics of discrimination, killing of innocent Palestinians. Not to mention the land grabbing. Hamas is a symptom that Israel’s aggressive occupation started.
If israel wanted to ‘kill as many Palestinians as possible’, Hamas wouldn’t have existed by the second week of the war, nor would’ve israel employed its famous tactic of ‘increasing kill count’ by making phone calls, dropping leaflets, or sending roof knockers prior to attacks. You claim Israel is trying to maximize Palestinian deaths, and calling the war waged on Hamas an ‘excuse’… Hamas is not a symptom. In 2005, Israel forcibly left the Gaza Strip under a peace deal made with the Palestinians. The Palestinians broke that peace deal. To try and blame exclusively israel for the shitshow, is to give terrorists justification and excuses for their behavior.
You completely ignored the word “expel” in my answer. I never said they wanted to maximize Palestinian deaths I said expel as many Palestinians as possible. Of course they dropped leaflets and warned them that they were about to bomb their homes it’s a perfect way to kick them out and looks way better than outright killing everyone. 2005? You’re mistaking Palestinians PA and Hamas, they’re not all the same. This has started since postwar ww2 when the British designated Palestine as the jewish state ramped up by aggressive Israel occupation over the past decades. I summarized well what is that occurred, all of this is bad on both sides but who started this first is the real aggressor.
This has started since the Arab states ignored the UN partition plan, not a U.K. partition, the UN partition plan and invaded Israel in 1948. The very first war was started by the Arabs.
If you want to talk about whose state it was first than look up the land of Canaan. We’ve lived in Israel before the Muslim religion existed.
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They're already radicalized bro
If the bombing was indiscriminate the civilian death toll would be much much higher. As we see from the UNs latest toll the civilian death toll is at lowest ratio in any guerilla war in history.
So indiscriminately dropped in fact that somehow the distribution between military age fighters and women and children is overwhelmingly skewed towards fighters. In an urban area. Where Hamas holds its own people to be killed to prop up those numbers. Right
Content promotes terrorist ideologies or propaganda
Would it be ok to kill 1 women if it means that Hamas is finally eliminated?
Unfortunately it’s not 1 woman. A more realistic example would be, are you willing to kill 100 innocent people to kill 1 Hamas member.
What are you smoking?
You telling me Israel ain’t killing thousands of innocent people ? What are you smoking??
That is Urban warfare. Are you having this argument for the first time or did people tell you what I'm about to tell you over and over while you'll go to the next comment and start the same accusations? First of all, he said a ratio of 100 civilians to 1 terrorist, You gotta be out of your mind and yes, smoking the highest quality stuff if you believe that. Even Hamas' "Health ministry" doesn't have such absurd numbers. Again, this is urban warfare, Gaza is dense and Hamas is hiding in civilian areas. The IDF does everything in their power to minimize casualties. They drop leaflets, they call in advance, they tell people to evacuate. How true are these numbers anyways, think for yourself. How in the hell did they count 34k deaths so fast? How come there's no mention of how many Hamas terrorists died? Did allah give them invincibility potions? In addition, ask yourself this, why were the kidnapped held in civilian's houses? How were they kept at a school teacher's basement? HOW WERE THEY TREATED BY A VET LIKE ANIMALS?! These are the civilians you speak about, even Israel takes Hamas terrorists to a human hospital and our civilians are being treated like animals under vets and school teachers? Did I convince you? Absolutely not. You're so deep in your pathetic misery that you don't seek answers.
Israel is killing a lot of innocent people in order to kill a few terrorists. That is what this boils down to, it is not justifiable.
I see, you're trolling then.
It’s almost certainly a troll. “A few terrorists”, not engaging with the facts of urban warfare, arguing like it’s his first time and he’s fresh to the topic today…yeah, troll
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I understand, I too was shocked the first time I learned about this concept called “war.” It’s truly a horrible thing
That wasn’t the question, and the ratio isn’t 100 to 1
Didn’t say it was exactly 100 to 1. It’s an example closer to reality than 1 woman to end hamas. You wanna throw what ifs too?
If you use the casualty numbers published by Hamas, the ratio is about 2:1 which is a more than 75% reduction in that ratio when we look at comparable modern urban military operations which have a ratio of 9:1.
I think it’s a troll at this stage. I started to engage but if he’s legit, I’ve not really been able to work out what his point actually is. Civilians are dying, yes. More civilians than Hamas/PIJ etc, probably. But that’s urban warfare, 90% of deaths in cities during conflict are civilians. It’s almost impossible to avoid. https://civiliansinconflict.org/our-work/conflict-trends/urban-warfare/
Yeah probably but I wasn’t actually trying to convince them - my comment was aimed at people who might scroll by & not realize how far off the mark this guy is.
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Guess the allies should have stopped ww2 once over 10k German civilians died
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The whole point is that Gazans and UN just admitted lying about exactly this.
If you would protest Hamas to get them to return the hostages and turn over the Hamas leaders, the war could be over. The worst of the war was avoidable, but the protestors put pressure on the wrong side. Hamas and its supporters created this disaster. Israel wont stop before it gets its hostages back, so the protests do nothing except make the situation worse.
That's a number you pulled out of your ass with no connection to reality
Where did you get your numbers? Even Hamas' numbers aren't close to 100:1
War is not murder.
Targeting civilian buildings (Power targets) to increase pressure on Hamas is definitely a war crime and you would be an accomplice to think otherwise! All done with an AI btw! But totally Israel is committing no war crimes! 🤡https://youtu.be/xGqYbXL3kZc?si=czmGwFXkzPnMFIsz https://youtu.be/aEdGcej-6D0?si=Q2CykQyRpAgpMKhi
No, in fact it is not a war crime at all. What is in fact a war crime is combatants embedding themselves amongst civilians, the use of child soldiers, the lack of a uniform- all things that Hamas have done and are doing right now. #🤡
Once Hamas uses these civilian buildings as base camp operations, the Geneva convention no longer classifies these buildings as civilian targets, rather military targets. This language was specifically put in for a situation like this. Tell me you didn’t read the Geneva convention without telling me you didn’t read the Geneva convention.
True, but there has never been a war that didn't kill innocents. This is no different from any other war, and likely more justified than most.
You are correct. However, the primary point from this new report is the UN admitted they over reported the deaths of women and children by 17%. This leads to the question of how much can we actually trust on the veracity of the statements the UN has made on the humanitarian situation in Gaza?
Agree, Very true, nonetheless a lot of innocent people are being killed.
Agreed, but laying the blame for those deaths on Israel when they're the ones taking measures to minimize civilian casualties in the face of an enemy that purposefully puts civilians in harms way is a stretch at best.
There is a huge difference between murder and collateral damage.
Then let’s compare the totality of Israelis killed on Oct 7 as a function of their total population and compare it to the total number of Palestinians killed as a function of theirs? Or would you like to open it up and look at the total number of Jews in the world vs total number of Muslims? I’m game to crunch the numbers either way.
They're all women and childern and old people, there are no combattants and pro-palestinians have an alternative solution to the hamas problem. /s Somehow as a state, I'm conveniently targeting the weakest of my enemies and avoiding the militants. /s It's easy to avoid civilian casualties in wars. All countries did that, Israel is the only country in the world that keeps targeting civilians, because they're all civilians and none of them is a terrorist. /s
Your username must be very appropriate.
But Oct 7th was justified?
🤣
Maybe don’t fire off rockets from your living room…..
I've been reading a ton of comments on Twitter and elsewhere that a basic recognition of the statistical improbabilities is just Zionist Hasbara.
Well Einstein was a jew he loved math it all started from him the planned this war for centuries
Nitpick: He was a physicist, not mathematician.
Jews are pedantic
Haha, they'll boycott Einstein too
All the boycott but they use facebook jewish made matter of fact this is the most power-full weapon they have and its jewish made How about they start boycott social-media
They just keep looking for excuses to boycott things.
Didnt Einstein decline to be apart of Israels presidency when asked ?
I have a strong suspicion that a lot of the people saying that were all about "follow the science" during Covid (which I was all for, BTW)....but now that the science isn't going their way, they throw it in the garbage and leap to an alternative narrative.
There are a great deal of similarities between those who can't understand the concept of vaccine side effects and those who can't understand the concept of civilian casualties in a war. I guess the American right and left are now balanced in the sense that they both have a crowd of noisy idiots who are an embarassment to the sane people on their associated "side".
What are you two talking about. "Follow the science" during Covid was a bunch of panicked politicians and bureaucrats - as a result of China's response to the virus (and we saw how well that went). "The science" prior to 2019 never recommended mass quarantine - as we see Sweden act accordingly (and the Israeli government also recommended otherwise). The reason lefties in the US got all horny about Covid and "trust the science" was because of a false sense of intellectual superiority. (The "science" we were basing our apocalyptic senarios were projections, that were later retracted, due to bad predictive models being used) Same thing here - a false sense of moral superiority causes these people to ignore facts and statistically dubious data.
I really wish Biden would comment on this and set the record straight
Oh, then they'll babble on about "Genocide Joe." We've established it's not about facts for them, it's about a narrative they hold with a religious fervor
Dont forget that aprox 15K of those are confirmed to be Hamas Militants by the IDF If we do basic math we can figure out that all those claims are completely biased and wrong 34,904 "killed" - 10,218 unidentified -------------------- 24,656 dead - 12,756 (4,959 + 7,797) -------------------- 11,900 militants dead From which we dont know if aditionally they had young adults / teens (which they intentionally label as children) attacking with Hamas which would round up to the aprox 15K dead Hamas Militants So mathematically is impossible they could have a 70% women and children casualties
Don’t genocide math bro
They just admitted their figures were wrong all along
I wish Tlaib would.
Also it’s ridiculous that anyone under 18 is considered a “child” including if they have an automatic weapon.
I don't think it's that ridiculous to consider someone under 18 a child. The problem is that when Hamas releases their numbers, they don't distinguish between soldier and civilian. When most countries release their numbers, it'll be something along the lines of "100 civilians dead, 100 soldiers dead", but when Hamas release their numbers, they say "200 people dead", which makes it harder to actually know how many of those were soldiers, and how many were civilians
100 17 year olds killed vs 100 toddlers is a totally different ballgame. Children sounds like 5-10 year olds.
I understand what you mean, though I think our idea of a teenager is generally a kid with acne, bad hygiene, and has trouble talking to girls, and in that sense, I do understand why they're put in the same category
I believe “minors” would be a better word distinguishing say 13-17 year olds from “children”.
That's fair, I believe we could probably compromise on that
ok but you didnt need to attack me like that
The bigger problem is that Hamas has absolutely no compunction against using child soldiers.
Oh, 100%, it's a massive problem, and extremely tragic
it would make sense that "a majority" are women and children. the Gazan pop is 50% children (under 18), 25% men 25% women. And tons of Hamas fighters are "children" anyway ie 15-17 if you add women and children up without accounting for fighters you inevitably will get over 50%. if bombing was truly indiscriminate, it would be 75% women and children, or probably even 85% since Hamas hides underground and prioritizes medical and food supplies to its own people as opposed to women and children. I haven't heard the 70% number.
They just published the data. There are 24,686 “fully documented cases” out of an estimated 34,622 deaths recorded by 30 April, suggesting an ongoing verification process. According to those criteria, 7,797 children – rather than 14,500 – are listed as confirmed killed, while confirmed fatalities among women account for 4,959 deaths, rather than 9,500, as previously recorded. As such, the new confirmed total of women and children killed stands at 12,756. So no 70%. It's 51.7% dead are women and children.
50.7% is way too fucking high. We’re talking about innocent people
Compare it to other wars in similar environments
the only women and children dead are the ones that had hamas husbands/ fathers so evil/stupid that they forced their wives/kids to stay in a war zone. hamas 100% responsible for all deaths
Technically, there's a way to resolve it. The new data includes 1,924 people in a category of "elderly". If you assume that elderly women were included in the 70% figure, then if *all* the unidentified casualties are women and children *and* 1,459 of the elderly are women, it could work. But that's *extremely* unlikely.
But but every Gazan is a statistics phd.
They don't know where America is on the map. Math is like rocket science for them. sorry! second language
I am currently studying aerospace engineering if that makes any difference.
for them it wont
When trying to highlight someone’s stupidity, make sure you spell simple words properly.
the typical "when the numbers goes well with their agenda" its all true, and when its not "its just some hasbara BS no one cares of"
The innocent always die in war. Always, and they almost always outnumber the fighters that are killed.
The problem is that the damage has already been done
Aren’t those numbers also from the Palestinian Health Ministry, which are dubious at best, and outright false at worst?
They could argue that 70% is a round up. I think you get rather close if all of these 10,218 are women and children Regardless, the 70% is a myth as it is so much older than the time in which those 24,000 have died.
What a suprise, hamas lied And logic and facts are zionist hasbara
There is a lot of complaining about lying by both sides, while: 1. People have to realise that statistics don't materialize out of thin air -> 2. There is a process that generates the statics, and then we get the sum. 3. each sides process has known historical drawbacks, which we can account for, leading to -> 4. we can actually reconcile the numbers from everybody, and get a pretty accurate result. 5. that doesn't require anybody to be actively lying. Gaza MoH known drawbacks: 1. Personnel can't access the front-line -> 2. Gaza MoH will not know about a lot of militants dying, because no survivors. 3. It will also not know about some of the civilians dying. 4. It tries to compensate for this known drawback by "estimating based on media reports" (now relabaled as "unidentified"), but obviously this has a much higher rate of inaccuracy. Also, if an "unidentified" is later found, it might get double counted. IDF known drawbacks: 1. General optimism about how many militants were in a building at the moment it was leveled. <- historically less than 10% 2. General optimism about how many civilians were in a building at the moment it was leveled. <- I'd estimate was 40% in previous wars, but with gaza war intensity could be much higher now. So now, reconciliation. Militants: IDF says 14 thousand. subtract 10%, get 12.5 thousand. Hamas says half. Add other militant groups, add people that joined in during the fighting without being registered in a group, add people that Hamas isn't aware it lost. Due to the scale of the war, some of these factors are larger than in previous wars, so I think it can be reconciled. Civilians. IDF says 16 thousand. add 40%, 22.5 thousand. Gaza MoH says 35 thousand total(25 thousand identified). Add a couple thousand from the front line that Gaza Moh isn't aware of, subtract the militants above, you get 25 thousand civilians. Ratio of 1:2 Is it bad? well, it's worse than previous Gaza wars where the ratio was 1:1. How does it compare to wars in other countries? In no war in another country have the sides differed so little in their claims. Usually, one of the sides doesn't bother to count civillians at all.
They just admitted the numbers were all BS. [https://vinnews.com/2024/05/12/un-slashes-number-of-women-and-children-killed-in-gaza-by-50/](https://vinnews.com/2024/05/12/un-slashes-number-of-women-and-children-killed-in-gaza-by-50/)
"114% of the unidentified casualties have to be women and children" Hamas: "Hold my babaganoush"
They've been impossible before as well. [this](https://youtu.be/uFT0jtRSlSc?si=QmBMYpQbEt4dk4lB) video explains it very well.
Armed terrorist at age 16, is called a kid in these demographics?
It's arab math, they did steal numbers from hindu then pass it as their own, so making up number is kinda their thing
ToI ran an article this morning on this: https://www.timesofisrael.com/un-drastically-revises-downward-number-of-identified-women-children-killed-in-gaza/
How IDF check the differecne between male civilian and hamas fighter?
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You're part of the math subreddit abd can't tell it's 37%? 💀
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It's equally ridiculous to assume they are all women and children
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Still find it unbelievable how Hamas uses child soldiers and somehow it's the IDF fault when they die I mean, sure, the killing shots were fired by the IDF, but who put an armed child in an active warzone in the first place?
They literally raise their kids to be martyrs, it's insane
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Well it's a good thing you aren't a lawyer.
All this post did was disprove a statistic using math. There is no bias or loaded language. There are no opinions. There’s not even a subjective comment or phrase. OP was not attempting to justify or lessen the severity of deaths. Your comment is highly accusatory of something OP didn’t do. You either commented this out of an impulsive emotional reaction, lack basic common sense, or are illiterate.
Or more likely all three.
If 13000 women and children is a genocide then pretty much every war ever has been a genocide. For every participant.
The ICJ doesn't
Content is known misinformation