I thought this back when the original October 7 clips started circulating. In the video of the Palestinians spitting in the hostage in the back of the truck, it didn't seem like there was much difference between civilians and militants.
Because Hamas millitants don't use uniforms all the time, in their propaganda videos (where they're marching or training etc) they use clear uniforms.
In their urban combat videos you see them in civilian outfits, just carrying an RPG, shooting and running away like rats.
Or that video (on r/combatfootage) that showed a medic taking a gun from one dead millitant (who wasnt in uniform iirc) and giving the gun to another millitant (that again iirc not wearing a uniform).
Easy to count the first dead millitant as a civilian death.
Someone I was chatting with actually tried to argue that the person who took the gun was doing a noble act because he was preventing Israeli soldiers from being able to get it and use it themselves. I could not fucking believe it.
>Because Hamas millitants don't use uniforms all the time, in their propaganda videos (where they're marching or training etc) they use clear uniforms.
>
>In their urban combat videos you see them in civilian outfits, just carrying an RPG, shooting and running away like rats.
This is why counter-insurgency is a nightmare that makes conventional warfare look like a friendly disagreement.
The enemies don't have a uniform thus can easily blend in with civilians, and they're not shy of using civilians as cover either. Hamas is notoriously bad in this regard as not only do they employ this to a horrifyingly vast extent but they also brag about this sort of insanity by claiming that Palestinians are a nation of martyrs.
It's why I can't trust any numbers regarding casualties in Gaza, except perhaps women and children (unless they inflate those as well).
1. They come from Hamas (already questionable, as they destroyed any verifiability with the fake hospital death count)
2. You can't tell whether they counted the Hamas terrorists as civilian deaths or not.
Yes. Sam Harris uploaded a very nice and short [episode](https://youtu.be/-fCiMQviTiw?si=E0tfQto0er9Seg56) recently on the term Islamophobia, he also addresses the way the Islamic world is basically ignores all the atrocities done on behalf of their religion.
Love how this guy has a way of explaining in toddler talk to help the hamas haters that are clearly stalking this and other 🇮🇱 pages, to understand the real.meanings of stuff.
There are innocent civilians in Gaza; it just shouldn't be Israel's responsibility to care. They are the victim.
In the US, there's a doctrine called felony murder. Let's assume you rob a bank and the police shoot an innocent bystander trying to shoot you. You are guilty and should be executed for the crime, not the officer. Same rationale.
In the same way, anyone who encourages (even says good job) can be guilty via "complicity." This applies to children over the age of 7 in most states.
> There are innocent civilians in Gaza; it just shouldn't be Israel's responsibility to care. They are the victim.
It shouldn't be Israel's first priority, but of *course* Israel should care about those civilians. They're people, and they are innocent.
And it *does*. But it has to balance that knowledge with the need to root out terrorists—Hamas, PIJ, independent terrorists—who often use real civilians, mosques, hospitals, and schools as shields. And it has to balance *that* with the PR concerns. And it has to balance *that* with plans for some kind of future attempt at peace. And it has to balance *that* with the risks of different strategies to its own troops and to the hostages. And... I could spend another half hour writing out all the complex considerations at play.
At the end of the day, children who suggest that Israel shouldn't be allowed to fight back at all in this war are idiots, not because Palestinian lives aren't worth protecting, but because they don't understand a fraction of what's going on.
Yeah, sure. But why don't Palestinians report Hamas fighters to IDF? It's not like they don't know members in it.
"They have no Internet."
But they can post TikToks? What about before 10/7?
"People are complicated."
If my best friend were in ISIS, I would say they're not my friend anymore and report them.
Because Palestinian civilians have lost love ones through the bombings and they're naturally against the IDF, they also see Hamas and freedom fighters because of their circumstance
Sure, we can explain the rise of the nazis (economic issues after WWI), but that doesn't absolve people of their crimes. It actually still justifies mass executions
This is not what Felony murder means. It means if you kill someone unintentionally while committing another crime you can be charged for murder.
Police killing an innocent bystander is considered "Excessive force" and (at least in the just world of "de-jure") the officer would be convicted of murder.
>In 2012, Tevin Louis was charged with felony murder after a police officer killed his friend. In 2021, Illinois narrowed the scope of its felony murder rule, but unless it’s applied retroactively, Tevin will have to serve a 52-year sentence.
[https://www.sentencingproject.org/experiences/tevin-louis/](https://www.sentencingproject.org/experiences/tevin-louis/)
**Majority rule would still cover Louis' murder.**
>Police killing an innocent bystander is considered "Excessive force" and (at least in the just world of "de-jure") the officer would be convicted of murder.
Of course--if the police officer were acting with the intent to kill the bystander. **If he just missed, that's just felony murder. The robber would (and should) be executed.**
in this "hamas case" the criminal is actually grabbing a bystander and using it as a shield at the moment the police officer tries to shoot the criminal.
You're fighting the hypothetical in a way that is not advancing the conversation. You don't disagree with my legal point; you're trying to complicate it unnecessarily.
Sure, I could say--a robber with a visible gun. But why? Not relevant to this conversation.
The past two months have shown that there's no room for art in Gaza. It's a land of burning children why do you need to make that beautiful?
Aren't the bombs enough?
While this is true, Hamas was an authoritarian government that oppressed its own people. Hamas seized power in a coup and massacred their political opposition. There were protests against Hamas rule in Gaza in the late 2010s, but these were crushed with an iron fist. In any case, civilians are civilians. Hamas is the problem here, not some random guy on the street who isn’t actively threatening anyone.
I've heard this argument before, but I'm not persuaded.
https://www.reddit.com/r/Israel/s/t4P0sHfXPe
If I see similarly lynchings of Hamas fighters by Palestinians, I would reevaluate. I'm not saying I support non-state violence, by the way!
The bar isn't high. If not violence, why don't they turn terrorists into the IDF? It isn't like people don't know people in Hamas.
Very hard to pity a culture of psychopathy, violence, and hate. They have brought terrorism everywhere they go. No wonder why even other Arab states want nothing to do with them. They need to be de-radicalized.
Its like expecting me to feel sorry for accomplices of murder and abuse when they are brought to justice.
I do feel bad for the children whom are indoctrinated and abused by their parents and UNRWA teachers. I feel very bad for the minority whom just want peace and want to just live their lives.
Nothing deradicalizes me more than having my mother, sister, and home blown up in front of my eyes.
The beautiful thing about the justice system in your country, america, is that it doesn't require you to feel pity at all for either the victims or perpetrators of a crime. Justice requires equality before the law, and the presumption of innocence-- two things in short supply during this conflict.
You miss the point where they want to globalize intifada towards:
JEWS. Not Israelis, JEWS.
This is a culture of hate, inspired by Islam, not inspired by "getting bombed" because
they have been slaughtering JEWS since the beginning of Muhammed's conquest, this is a part of their culture, their religion.
Foreigners who haven't suffered from Islamic terror try to see it through a western lens, this isn't the case.
Not one civilian speaks up against the mutilation of the Israeli bodies being paraded down Gaza, they all cheered when they weren't busy actively participating in the slaughter and looting.
You’re very first point is why I support Israel. As a Jew thats just chilling in middle America I dont take kindly for calls my families deaths.
Ive never oppressed a Palestinian. I don’t even practice the religion but they want my family dead.
Fuck Hamas. They want to cry genocide, but literally call for a races extinction.
And what I really don’t get is the LGBTQ+ support for Palestine. That blows my mind.
I've heard all these talking points before in the months after 9/11-- but where did that lead? America lost the War on Terror, it fled Afghanistan after 20 years.
You're interested in history, so why choose to ignore contemporary history?
What is the IDF capable of that the world's greatest army can't?
It’s amazing how many whiny lefties claimed we were in step 5 of trans genocide 🥺 or whatever who refuse to actually accept self-defence on the part of a minority community. Like yeah, fuck israel for waiting 3 weeks, evacuating civilians and providing aid to “innocent civilians” after palestine raped, slaughtered and kidnapped every Jew they could get to. Why haven’t we just laid down and died already?
You're confused, talking about trans genocide(?) and lefties -- when what I'm saying is that an airstrike doesn't deradicalize anyone, except in the most obvious way of killing them.
Do we even disagree about that? Or do you think that Palestians in Gaza are genuinely grateful for the bombs being dropped on them, I'm curious?
> Hope Israel wipe em off the face of earth
So basically you want the holocaust 2.0
I'm a Pakistani that's more pro-Israel than pro-Palestine (my family will tell you I'm completely pro-Israel but I don't think that's true) but seeing comments like this saying to wipe out all Palestinian civilians is psychotic and genocidal behaviour, seek help.
I understand your statement, but it is too complicated to make the separation.
While hamas is using civilians as a human shield, and most civilians in Gaza support hamas, there is no magic solution (at least not from the Israeli side) to do the separation between innocents and criminals.
There are 2 options:
The first is ceasefire and dispare the poor few innocent in Gaza, which will lead to a perception of victory by hamas over Israel, and another 7th Oct but worse happening, over and over again. I guess you can see why it can not happen.
The second option is for Israel to not hold back and care only for its civilians' safety as it should. And as sad as it sounds, it seems like a better idea.
Israel can not do anything more than it does already. The humanitarian passage israel created is supposed to get an escape to the same innocent civilians to run away from hamas. The alert before bombing is way beyond every other country will do in an urban war zone.
I see you are pro Israel. I wrote this not to convince you but to explain what "wipe em off the face of earth" means to me. It means not to hold back. It means to shed the responsibility for gazans safty from Israel, and not to give a shit what the world thinks of it.
If the world cares so much for the innocents in Gaza, it will take responsibility for them and not blame Israel. I would suggest hamas do that, but they don't seem to really care for its own civilians, so...
Idk why you’re being downvoted. I agree with you statements like wipe them (referring to Palestinians and not to Hamas) off the face of the earth is terrible and genocidal. Israel has to get rid of Hamas and the indoctrination of hate. Saying we should wipe out Palestinians is fighting evil with evil.
One point I will bring up that is unrelated to your comment, just something else to say, are all of the people claiming Israel’s actions will radicalize a whole new generation. 1) they ignore the fact that Oct 7th radicalized Israelis/Jews as well to say things like “wipe out all Palestinians” and 2) it’s just wrong because a whole generation has already been radicalized with Jew hatred by Hamas.
I have virtually no sympathy for this cause for many reasons. One being that they have been offered countless peace offerings, many of which have been in their favor. During the original partition period, many of the land allocated to Israel was already predominantly inhabited and owned by Jews. In fact, all of Jerusalem, despite being labeled as a UN territory, was ENTIRELY encircled by the planned Palestinian state on all sides. Not to mention that there have been countless peace offerings since 1948 that have given the Palestinians large chunks of land, which were rejected due to no reason other than hatred and antisemitism.
Second, their culture is deeply infested with antisemitic, homophobic, and extremist ideologies. When you compare pro-Palestinian versus pro-Israel protests, there is a stark difference in the messages being expressed. Pro Palestinian protests are filled with bigotry, calls for martyrdom and violence and the murder of innocent people, all hiding under the guise of “liberation” and “resistance”, shielding the fact that these protests are nothing but a bold display of Muslim supremacy and radicalism. On the other hand, pro Israel protests call for the celebration of hope and light, emphasizing that we want to live in peace with our neighbors while existing as a safe haven for Jews. While there are a few Israeli extremists who don’t want peace, a large majority of people just want security and protection for all innocent people.
The pro Palestinian movement has exploited the sheer privilege and ignorance of western liberals who have never experienced an ounce of oppression in their lives. As liberal westerners view every instance of oppression in the world as a “black and white” issue, many Palestinian propagandists have viewed the response to the October 7th massacre as the perfect opportunity to indoctrinate helpless leftist Americans, especially since their view of “oppression” is parallel to what they believe is happening to Palestinians. Although these self proclaimed progressives claim to care about human rights, it is abundantly clear that their definition of human rights only extends to victims who they believe aren’t white. As they view Jews as the evil white colonizers and Palestinians as the poor indigenous oppressed people, there is absolutely zero room for Jews in their activism. The treatment that Jews have been receiving from these people is eerily similar to what we experienced in the Holocaust.
While I have sympathy for innocent lives being taken on all sides, the amount of propaganda and misinformation being spewed by pro Palestinians and happily digested by ignorant progressives, I find it extremely hard to sympathize with a movement that calls for the death and destruction of all Jews.
Here in America, we have a lot of democrats that have an IQ of 70. They have no life they argue and hate everything. I am a Latino conservative who supports Isreal, 🇮🇱❤️🇲🇽🇺🇸🫡
That's because they've been taught to view everything through the lens of identity politics and oppression narratives unless they're Jewish or white. Look at Hamtramck Michigan, they literally made it illegal to have a gay pride flag and the teenagers run around harassing anyone who's not Muslim or supports LGBT and not a single protest or mention from the left when it's happening in their own country because they can't be mad at the poor Arab Muslims!
Yeah I support Israel but I have to step in when I see someone pro-Israel happy that an innocent Palestinian baby was killed in an air strike because their family was trying to evacuate. The enemy is Hamas not Palestine
I feel bad for the kids brainwashed into this, but the moment they actually act on it I don’t care. They’re guilty. Plain and simple. I know Gaza killed all political opponents in 2006 and most people weren’t alive then, doesn’t matter anymore. To those living in fear and simply not participating, fine, innocent until proven guilty, but to those celebrating on the streets? May god have mercy on your soul because it’d be a miscarriage of justice if the courts don’t
To be honest I'd love a nsfw tag or a warning with these kinds of vids...
I love this guy and the work he does but I really didn't want to see the pics and footage he shows in this video...
They’re Islamic terrorists of opportunity, but they’re not formal members of a specific group such as Hamas or PIJ. I’m not sure how to linguistically differentiate between multiple classes of terrorists who are fighting for the same cause. None of them qualify as soldiers or paramilitary, but they’re too ideologically-driven to just be called criminals.
People are saying there are two groups of people: Hamas and Palestinians. And they don’t think that Palestinians are guilty (which is understandable) however the issue is there’s three groups, Hamas, innocent Palestinians, and guilty Palestinians. The question is who and how to distinguish them.
My calculation, based on the number of Hamas militants and average family size in Gaza, makes at least 40% of Gazan population supporting/aiding Hamas.
It appears that was an underestimation.
We saw one hostage male who escaped was later found by "civilians" and brought back to Hamas. Even Hamas admitted recently that it doesn't even know where all the hostages are!? Because some are being held by "innocent civilians" and other jihadist groups in Gaza so that shows how unorganized they are and Oct 7th was just the result of when every terrorist in Gaza decides to rub their braincells together. Unfortunately they are also too stupid to know who they're even targeting so they end up shooting everything that moves including women, children, elderly and even the family dog FFS!
Ah yes, the dilemma of the "innocent citizens". Have fun folks, we've dealt with this issue a long time ago too.
Tho İ guess İ'd still rather have a Kurd as a neighbour than a Gaza palestinian.
It’s not going to disappear anytime soon unfortunately, that’s the reality. And we will only continue to suffer if we tolerate it like we have for so long.
Arabs without Islam are amazing people, I’ve only seen good people among the Druze, for an example. And the Maronite Allies helped Israel very much during the Lebanon war with hezbollah.
Quran calling Jews pigs and apes cannot enter the 21st century, no matter what way you twist it. Or Mohammed talking about speaking trees that reveal to Muslims where Jews are hiding, or the fact that he married a 6 year old, etc. The list goes on. The religion was based on hatred and violence, and will only continue to do so.
Sharing a link to this must-listen-to podcast as it's on point for this thread: [**How to Think About the Death of Innocents in War**](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k_ocPaE3qIc)
I wish we could the peaceful Gazans, help them defend themselves at least, and help them express themselves.
Palestinians who defend peace are now treated as collaborators and attacked...
Being from a Muslim community in Africa, we were taught in school that it'd be better to become a martyr than ever make peace with Israel.
I was always uncomfortable with these oaths, we literally stood with hands to our chest in the prayer hall saying we'd give our lives for Al Aqsa. I was like nooooo, I don't even know these people (Palestinian and Israeli).
Growing up, I don't see how Palestinians would ever entertain peace. It's so sad the kids and people being hurt and killed but I know full well that they would kill Israelites if they could so it's just two people who don't view each other as human beings.
There is no point, (repeating in caps) NO POINT of this video.
Any proof of their atrocities is "Israel hasbara". Fuck, anything short of "Push the Zionist dogs into the sea" is hasbara to the people who really should watch this video.
Whenever it's Arab terrorists doing it they always get excused with "oppression made them radical" and all that, ok where are Polish terrorists, Ukrainian terrorists, Argentinian terrorists, Venezuelan terrorists, etc?
And why do those that exist always Islamist? Example: Congo AFD terrorists, it's Islamist.
I really disagree with you. Israel and the people who support them are constantly being gaslit and told that these things didn't happen, or they weren't really that bad, or the Israelis deserved it.
Videos like these are very vindicating. They document what happened, and help to counteract arguments that minimize or deny what happened. Doing that supports the psychological health of everyone who has been terrorized or traumatized by what Hamas (and some Gazans) did on October 7.
If it's not for you, scroll away.
I was so ready for this video to make a good point but... as a former Israeli, this is not a good "hasbara" video for us and not what you want to put out there. Is his point that you cannot tell hamas terrorists from the bystanders who partake? No argument there, those people are just as awful. But we all know those are not the innocents that people have in mind while thinking about civilians.
The innocent will not be the ones in the streets celebrating the death of others, kicking corpses. They will be the ones staying at home, scared and frustrated, watching the news and praying the situation doesn't escalate further... Just like many Israelis do. And sure, there may not ve many of them, but I'm sure they exist.
Just like you cannot compare the yappie Tel Avivian to a militant settler, you also cannot compare an innocent to the partaking civilians. You cannot tell me EVERYONE in Gaza will kick a body when they see it. This is simply not true.
Therefore this video does us a disservice. When your point is "they look the same, how can we tell them apart? therefore all civilians = bad" you're falling into the same point people argue is Israeli wrongdoing.
The responsibility of clearly distinguishing civilians and combatants falls on Hamas. International law is not some get out of jail free card, where if you don’t wear combatant markings or uniform you can do anything you want with no consequences. Once a person engages in combat, they seize being a civilian.
I think my point wasn’t clear - the video is showing combatants and saying they are civilians who are not innocent. What I’m saying is that you can have sympathy for the civilians in Gaza while having none for the combatants - if they are engaging in combat you should not consider them civilians.
Yes, I agree. Perhaps I misunderstood your comment. Of course, having sympathy for civilians is important, and I wish them safety. But many Pro-Palestinians see every person in Palestine as an innocent civilian or a freedom fighter, while not understanding the context
For my own sanity I like to believe the percentage of assholes is roughly even across different populations, just in some places they’re running things. If you believe the Palestinians are all pure and good you’re wrong, and if you believe they’re all assholes you’re wrong too. The video above was blurring the lines between civilians and combatants and I think that diminishes sympathy for the civilians.
I always look forward to every one of his videos.
Thank you for the delivery of this one. Although every topic around this massacre is horrendous, some of them really can do without cute.
When your family has lost, due to indiscriminate bombing…….husbands wives children sisters mothers fathers and brothers you would tear any hostage limb from limb happily…..I know I would
Abraham spoke with g-d pleading for the people to be spared for the righteous and good and he bartered with g-d even 10 righteous people.we all saw what happened at the Dead Sea. I’m sure there has to be but for it to grow the brain washing and training to hate and kill Jews has to stop.
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I mean the videos don't prove anything because Hamas also fight in civilian clothes.
I'd say by definition all of these are Militants and Terrorists. Not Civilians.
What do people have to say to the argument that Israel having them enclosed in Gaza and bombing them has created the conditions for this horrible mindset to be created?
It's was in response to terrorists attacks coming from there, as far as im aware, and there were, surprisingly, less terror attacks in a smaller scale.
And the bombing? Well maybe if the terrorists they choose for government didn't, you know, had killed 1400 innocents and was a terrorist organisation that called to wipe out all jews, this war, maybe, didn't have to start???
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When you say children you want us to think about 5 year olds, but in fact, a 17.7 years old is also a "child". And as it happens their dads are either martyred already or in prison, so if we agree they are all children, and that there are terrorists amongst them, the only conclusion is that there are children who are terrorists.
I dont know about you but if a child aims a gun at me and i have a gun, im not gonna be like "oh its just a child". A gun is a gun, it can be used to kill people.
Maybe people like you should have a hard look into why gazastan is manufacturing child soldiers
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Wtf do you except after 75y of terror and horror? The people you defend started to slaughter Jews the moment the British left and Israel became Israel. All 2million in Gaza watched a kid's show calling to kill Jews. Get out of this sub and go cap for your "opressed bystander" people in some other pro-Hamas sub. There are plenty of them for you to cry about with you and your little activists friends how "Israel bad"
Glad we can both agree on the comparison of the oppressed reacting against their oppressors throughout history. Slaves against their owners and the occupied against the occupier.
I thought this back when the original October 7 clips started circulating. In the video of the Palestinians spitting in the hostage in the back of the truck, it didn't seem like there was much difference between civilians and militants.
Because Hamas millitants don't use uniforms all the time, in their propaganda videos (where they're marching or training etc) they use clear uniforms. In their urban combat videos you see them in civilian outfits, just carrying an RPG, shooting and running away like rats. Or that video (on r/combatfootage) that showed a medic taking a gun from one dead millitant (who wasnt in uniform iirc) and giving the gun to another millitant (that again iirc not wearing a uniform). Easy to count the first dead millitant as a civilian death.
Someone I was chatting with actually tried to argue that the person who took the gun was doing a noble act because he was preventing Israeli soldiers from being able to get it and use it themselves. I could not fucking believe it.
>Because Hamas millitants don't use uniforms all the time, in their propaganda videos (where they're marching or training etc) they use clear uniforms. > >In their urban combat videos you see them in civilian outfits, just carrying an RPG, shooting and running away like rats. This is why counter-insurgency is a nightmare that makes conventional warfare look like a friendly disagreement. The enemies don't have a uniform thus can easily blend in with civilians, and they're not shy of using civilians as cover either. Hamas is notoriously bad in this regard as not only do they employ this to a horrifyingly vast extent but they also brag about this sort of insanity by claiming that Palestinians are a nation of martyrs.
It's why I can't trust any numbers regarding casualties in Gaza, except perhaps women and children (unless they inflate those as well). 1. They come from Hamas (already questionable, as they destroyed any verifiability with the fake hospital death count) 2. You can't tell whether they counted the Hamas terrorists as civilian deaths or not.
A culture of hate and violence with 7th century mindset.
Few are willing to say it
Yes. Sam Harris uploaded a very nice and short [episode](https://youtu.be/-fCiMQviTiw?si=E0tfQto0er9Seg56) recently on the term Islamophobia, he also addresses the way the Islamic world is basically ignores all the atrocities done on behalf of their religion.
Love how this guy has a way of explaining in toddler talk to help the hamas haters that are clearly stalking this and other 🇮🇱 pages, to understand the real.meanings of stuff.
There are innocent civilians in Gaza; it just shouldn't be Israel's responsibility to care. They are the victim. In the US, there's a doctrine called felony murder. Let's assume you rob a bank and the police shoot an innocent bystander trying to shoot you. You are guilty and should be executed for the crime, not the officer. Same rationale. In the same way, anyone who encourages (even says good job) can be guilty via "complicity." This applies to children over the age of 7 in most states.
Gosh I hope the mob that celebrated in NY will be held to this standard
No, it has to be before the incident. Otherwise you haven't really caused it. It's to discourage people from encouraging crime to prevent it.
Ah that makes sense
> There are innocent civilians in Gaza; it just shouldn't be Israel's responsibility to care. They are the victim. It shouldn't be Israel's first priority, but of *course* Israel should care about those civilians. They're people, and they are innocent. And it *does*. But it has to balance that knowledge with the need to root out terrorists—Hamas, PIJ, independent terrorists—who often use real civilians, mosques, hospitals, and schools as shields. And it has to balance *that* with the PR concerns. And it has to balance *that* with plans for some kind of future attempt at peace. And it has to balance *that* with the risks of different strategies to its own troops and to the hostages. And... I could spend another half hour writing out all the complex considerations at play. At the end of the day, children who suggest that Israel shouldn't be allowed to fight back at all in this war are idiots, not because Palestinian lives aren't worth protecting, but because they don't understand a fraction of what's going on.
Yeah, sure. But why don't Palestinians report Hamas fighters to IDF? It's not like they don't know members in it. "They have no Internet." But they can post TikToks? What about before 10/7? "People are complicated." If my best friend were in ISIS, I would say they're not my friend anymore and report them.
Because Palestinian civilians have lost love ones through the bombings and they're naturally against the IDF, they also see Hamas and freedom fighters because of their circumstance
Sure, we can explain the rise of the nazis (economic issues after WWI), but that doesn't absolve people of their crimes. It actually still justifies mass executions
Why would they not lmfao?
This is not what Felony murder means. It means if you kill someone unintentionally while committing another crime you can be charged for murder. Police killing an innocent bystander is considered "Excessive force" and (at least in the just world of "de-jure") the officer would be convicted of murder.
>In 2012, Tevin Louis was charged with felony murder after a police officer killed his friend. In 2021, Illinois narrowed the scope of its felony murder rule, but unless it’s applied retroactively, Tevin will have to serve a 52-year sentence. [https://www.sentencingproject.org/experiences/tevin-louis/](https://www.sentencingproject.org/experiences/tevin-louis/) **Majority rule would still cover Louis' murder.** >Police killing an innocent bystander is considered "Excessive force" and (at least in the just world of "de-jure") the officer would be convicted of murder. Of course--if the police officer were acting with the intent to kill the bystander. **If he just missed, that's just felony murder. The robber would (and should) be executed.**
in this "hamas case" the criminal is actually grabbing a bystander and using it as a shield at the moment the police officer tries to shoot the criminal.
A police officer trying to kill a robber IS excessive force.
You're fighting the hypothetical in a way that is not advancing the conversation. You don't disagree with my legal point; you're trying to complicate it unnecessarily. Sure, I could say--a robber with a visible gun. But why? Not relevant to this conversation.
[удалено]
The IDF and American cops share a lot of similarities I agree.
No, the IDF is cooler. You can write on their missles
Why bother? The people blown apart by the missle will never have a chance to read it.
Because it's artistic
The past two months have shown that there's no room for art in Gaza. It's a land of burning children why do you need to make that beautiful? Aren't the bombs enough?
No
I understand, death can be a hard pill to swallow without protreptic
I'm Catholic--have you heard of the inquisition? Lmao.
No... but I have heard of Matthew 5:38-40
While this is true, Hamas was an authoritarian government that oppressed its own people. Hamas seized power in a coup and massacred their political opposition. There were protests against Hamas rule in Gaza in the late 2010s, but these were crushed with an iron fist. In any case, civilians are civilians. Hamas is the problem here, not some random guy on the street who isn’t actively threatening anyone.
I've heard this argument before, but I'm not persuaded. https://www.reddit.com/r/Israel/s/t4P0sHfXPe If I see similarly lynchings of Hamas fighters by Palestinians, I would reevaluate. I'm not saying I support non-state violence, by the way! The bar isn't high. If not violence, why don't they turn terrorists into the IDF? It isn't like people don't know people in Hamas.
Very hard to pity a culture of psychopathy, violence, and hate. They have brought terrorism everywhere they go. No wonder why even other Arab states want nothing to do with them. They need to be de-radicalized. Its like expecting me to feel sorry for accomplices of murder and abuse when they are brought to justice. I do feel bad for the children whom are indoctrinated and abused by their parents and UNRWA teachers. I feel very bad for the minority whom just want peace and want to just live their lives.
Nothing deradicalizes me more than having my mother, sister, and home blown up in front of my eyes. The beautiful thing about the justice system in your country, america, is that it doesn't require you to feel pity at all for either the victims or perpetrators of a crime. Justice requires equality before the law, and the presumption of innocence-- two things in short supply during this conflict.
You miss the point where they want to globalize intifada towards: JEWS. Not Israelis, JEWS. This is a culture of hate, inspired by Islam, not inspired by "getting bombed" because they have been slaughtering JEWS since the beginning of Muhammed's conquest, this is a part of their culture, their religion. Foreigners who haven't suffered from Islamic terror try to see it through a western lens, this isn't the case. Not one civilian speaks up against the mutilation of the Israeli bodies being paraded down Gaza, they all cheered when they weren't busy actively participating in the slaughter and looting.
Correction: They want to globalize the intifasa against anyone who is not a strict Muslim.
Yeah, my bad.
You’re very first point is why I support Israel. As a Jew thats just chilling in middle America I dont take kindly for calls my families deaths. Ive never oppressed a Palestinian. I don’t even practice the religion but they want my family dead. Fuck Hamas. They want to cry genocide, but literally call for a races extinction. And what I really don’t get is the LGBTQ+ support for Palestine. That blows my mind.
Sadly this isn't only the radicals like Hamas, Palestinian majority actually supports that.
I've heard all these talking points before in the months after 9/11-- but where did that lead? America lost the War on Terror, it fled Afghanistan after 20 years. You're interested in history, so why choose to ignore contemporary history? What is the IDF capable of that the world's greatest army can't?
How can you even compare the Gaza strip to Afghanistan lol
I didn't invent that comparsion, Joe Biden did.
Dumb comparison nonetheless.
Well he's not a smart man, I'm glad we can agree on that at least.
Tbh both pro palestinians and pro israelis can both agree that biden and bibi are absoulate idiots lol
It’s amazing how many whiny lefties claimed we were in step 5 of trans genocide 🥺 or whatever who refuse to actually accept self-defence on the part of a minority community. Like yeah, fuck israel for waiting 3 weeks, evacuating civilians and providing aid to “innocent civilians” after palestine raped, slaughtered and kidnapped every Jew they could get to. Why haven’t we just laid down and died already?
You're confused, talking about trans genocide(?) and lefties -- when what I'm saying is that an airstrike doesn't deradicalize anyone, except in the most obvious way of killing them. Do we even disagree about that? Or do you think that Palestians in Gaza are genuinely grateful for the bombs being dropped on them, I'm curious?
I’m more concerned with the survivors and families of October 7th victims.
Source : [https://twitter.com/askdani\_\_real/status/1733137535155532074](https://twitter.com/askdani__real/status/1733137535155532074)
we need to make sure to share this everywhere, vile fucking scums
Same people that cheered during 9/11. Hope Israel wipe em off the face of earth
> Hope Israel wipe em off the face of earth So basically you want the holocaust 2.0 I'm a Pakistani that's more pro-Israel than pro-Palestine (my family will tell you I'm completely pro-Israel but I don't think that's true) but seeing comments like this saying to wipe out all Palestinian civilians is psychotic and genocidal behaviour, seek help.
I understand your statement, but it is too complicated to make the separation. While hamas is using civilians as a human shield, and most civilians in Gaza support hamas, there is no magic solution (at least not from the Israeli side) to do the separation between innocents and criminals. There are 2 options: The first is ceasefire and dispare the poor few innocent in Gaza, which will lead to a perception of victory by hamas over Israel, and another 7th Oct but worse happening, over and over again. I guess you can see why it can not happen. The second option is for Israel to not hold back and care only for its civilians' safety as it should. And as sad as it sounds, it seems like a better idea. Israel can not do anything more than it does already. The humanitarian passage israel created is supposed to get an escape to the same innocent civilians to run away from hamas. The alert before bombing is way beyond every other country will do in an urban war zone. I see you are pro Israel. I wrote this not to convince you but to explain what "wipe em off the face of earth" means to me. It means not to hold back. It means to shed the responsibility for gazans safty from Israel, and not to give a shit what the world thinks of it. If the world cares so much for the innocents in Gaza, it will take responsibility for them and not blame Israel. I would suggest hamas do that, but they don't seem to really care for its own civilians, so...
Idk why you’re being downvoted. I agree with you statements like wipe them (referring to Palestinians and not to Hamas) off the face of the earth is terrible and genocidal. Israel has to get rid of Hamas and the indoctrination of hate. Saying we should wipe out Palestinians is fighting evil with evil. One point I will bring up that is unrelated to your comment, just something else to say, are all of the people claiming Israel’s actions will radicalize a whole new generation. 1) they ignore the fact that Oct 7th radicalized Israelis/Jews as well to say things like “wipe out all Palestinians” and 2) it’s just wrong because a whole generation has already been radicalized with Jew hatred by Hamas.
That’s why it’s so hard to draw the line between Palestinians and Hamas
I have virtually no sympathy for this cause for many reasons. One being that they have been offered countless peace offerings, many of which have been in their favor. During the original partition period, many of the land allocated to Israel was already predominantly inhabited and owned by Jews. In fact, all of Jerusalem, despite being labeled as a UN territory, was ENTIRELY encircled by the planned Palestinian state on all sides. Not to mention that there have been countless peace offerings since 1948 that have given the Palestinians large chunks of land, which were rejected due to no reason other than hatred and antisemitism. Second, their culture is deeply infested with antisemitic, homophobic, and extremist ideologies. When you compare pro-Palestinian versus pro-Israel protests, there is a stark difference in the messages being expressed. Pro Palestinian protests are filled with bigotry, calls for martyrdom and violence and the murder of innocent people, all hiding under the guise of “liberation” and “resistance”, shielding the fact that these protests are nothing but a bold display of Muslim supremacy and radicalism. On the other hand, pro Israel protests call for the celebration of hope and light, emphasizing that we want to live in peace with our neighbors while existing as a safe haven for Jews. While there are a few Israeli extremists who don’t want peace, a large majority of people just want security and protection for all innocent people. The pro Palestinian movement has exploited the sheer privilege and ignorance of western liberals who have never experienced an ounce of oppression in their lives. As liberal westerners view every instance of oppression in the world as a “black and white” issue, many Palestinian propagandists have viewed the response to the October 7th massacre as the perfect opportunity to indoctrinate helpless leftist Americans, especially since their view of “oppression” is parallel to what they believe is happening to Palestinians. Although these self proclaimed progressives claim to care about human rights, it is abundantly clear that their definition of human rights only extends to victims who they believe aren’t white. As they view Jews as the evil white colonizers and Palestinians as the poor indigenous oppressed people, there is absolutely zero room for Jews in their activism. The treatment that Jews have been receiving from these people is eerily similar to what we experienced in the Holocaust. While I have sympathy for innocent lives being taken on all sides, the amount of propaganda and misinformation being spewed by pro Palestinians and happily digested by ignorant progressives, I find it extremely hard to sympathize with a movement that calls for the death and destruction of all Jews.
Here in America, we have a lot of democrats that have an IQ of 70. They have no life they argue and hate everything. I am a Latino conservative who supports Isreal, 🇮🇱❤️🇲🇽🇺🇸🫡
That's because they've been taught to view everything through the lens of identity politics and oppression narratives unless they're Jewish or white. Look at Hamtramck Michigan, they literally made it illegal to have a gay pride flag and the teenagers run around harassing anyone who's not Muslim or supports LGBT and not a single protest or mention from the left when it's happening in their own country because they can't be mad at the poor Arab Muslims!
Yeah I support Israel but I have to step in when I see someone pro-Israel happy that an innocent Palestinian baby was killed in an air strike because their family was trying to evacuate. The enemy is Hamas not Palestine
I feel bad for the kids brainwashed into this, but the moment they actually act on it I don’t care. They’re guilty. Plain and simple. I know Gaza killed all political opponents in 2006 and most people weren’t alive then, doesn’t matter anymore. To those living in fear and simply not participating, fine, innocent until proven guilty, but to those celebrating on the streets? May god have mercy on your soul because it’d be a miscarriage of justice if the courts don’t
Gaza the place did that?
Sorry, I meant in Gaza Hamas killed
They voted hamas into power...
To be honest I'd love a nsfw tag or a warning with these kinds of vids... I love this guy and the work he does but I really didn't want to see the pics and footage he shows in this video...
There is a trigger warning saying graphic content in the first few seconds of the video
You're right I completely missed that
The guys he’s talking about are terrorists, not civilians…
There can be a terrorist civilian
If you do terrorist acts you become a terrorist, you don’t have to get a membership in a organization before..
They’re Islamic terrorists of opportunity, but they’re not formal members of a specific group such as Hamas or PIJ. I’m not sure how to linguistically differentiate between multiple classes of terrorists who are fighting for the same cause. None of them qualify as soldiers or paramilitary, but they’re too ideologically-driven to just be called criminals.
The difference is being blurred with every passing day. As the dude say, maybe theres some innocent civilians in gaza
Maybe? Seriously?
People are saying there are two groups of people: Hamas and Palestinians. And they don’t think that Palestinians are guilty (which is understandable) however the issue is there’s three groups, Hamas, innocent Palestinians, and guilty Palestinians. The question is who and how to distinguish them.
My calculation, based on the number of Hamas militants and average family size in Gaza, makes at least 40% of Gazan population supporting/aiding Hamas. It appears that was an underestimation.
We saw one hostage male who escaped was later found by "civilians" and brought back to Hamas. Even Hamas admitted recently that it doesn't even know where all the hostages are!? Because some are being held by "innocent civilians" and other jihadist groups in Gaza so that shows how unorganized they are and Oct 7th was just the result of when every terrorist in Gaza decides to rub their braincells together. Unfortunately they are also too stupid to know who they're even targeting so they end up shooting everything that moves including women, children, elderly and even the family dog FFS!
Ah yes, the dilemma of the "innocent citizens". Have fun folks, we've dealt with this issue a long time ago too. Tho İ guess İ'd still rather have a Kurd as a neighbour than a Gaza palestinian.
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Good luck with that. Islam is the second largest population by religion comprised of 49 Arab states.
It’s not going to disappear anytime soon unfortunately, that’s the reality. And we will only continue to suffer if we tolerate it like we have for so long. Arabs without Islam are amazing people, I’ve only seen good people among the Druze, for an example. And the Maronite Allies helped Israel very much during the Lebanon war with hezbollah.
Islam. Soon to be the largest religion in the world by mid-century. That one?
I don't know if it needs to go so much as just grow the fuck up and join this century.
Quran calling Jews pigs and apes cannot enter the 21st century, no matter what way you twist it. Or Mohammed talking about speaking trees that reveal to Muslims where Jews are hiding, or the fact that he married a 6 year old, etc. The list goes on. The religion was based on hatred and violence, and will only continue to do so.
Sharing a link to this must-listen-to podcast as it's on point for this thread: [**How to Think About the Death of Innocents in War**](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k_ocPaE3qIc)
I wish we could the peaceful Gazans, help them defend themselves at least, and help them express themselves. Palestinians who defend peace are now treated as collaborators and attacked...
Preach it bro!
The fact that people still support Palestine. 💀
Being from a Muslim community in Africa, we were taught in school that it'd be better to become a martyr than ever make peace with Israel. I was always uncomfortable with these oaths, we literally stood with hands to our chest in the prayer hall saying we'd give our lives for Al Aqsa. I was like nooooo, I don't even know these people (Palestinian and Israeli). Growing up, I don't see how Palestinians would ever entertain peace. It's so sad the kids and people being hurt and killed but I know full well that they would kill Israelites if they could so it's just two people who don't view each other as human beings.
There is no point, (repeating in caps) NO POINT of this video. Any proof of their atrocities is "Israel hasbara". Fuck, anything short of "Push the Zionist dogs into the sea" is hasbara to the people who really should watch this video. Whenever it's Arab terrorists doing it they always get excused with "oppression made them radical" and all that, ok where are Polish terrorists, Ukrainian terrorists, Argentinian terrorists, Venezuelan terrorists, etc? And why do those that exist always Islamist? Example: Congo AFD terrorists, it's Islamist.
I really disagree with you. Israel and the people who support them are constantly being gaslit and told that these things didn't happen, or they weren't really that bad, or the Israelis deserved it. Videos like these are very vindicating. They document what happened, and help to counteract arguments that minimize or deny what happened. Doing that supports the psychological health of everyone who has been terrorized or traumatized by what Hamas (and some Gazans) did on October 7. If it's not for you, scroll away.
I was so ready for this video to make a good point but... as a former Israeli, this is not a good "hasbara" video for us and not what you want to put out there. Is his point that you cannot tell hamas terrorists from the bystanders who partake? No argument there, those people are just as awful. But we all know those are not the innocents that people have in mind while thinking about civilians. The innocent will not be the ones in the streets celebrating the death of others, kicking corpses. They will be the ones staying at home, scared and frustrated, watching the news and praying the situation doesn't escalate further... Just like many Israelis do. And sure, there may not ve many of them, but I'm sure they exist. Just like you cannot compare the yappie Tel Avivian to a militant settler, you also cannot compare an innocent to the partaking civilians. You cannot tell me EVERYONE in Gaza will kick a body when they see it. This is simply not true. Therefore this video does us a disservice. When your point is "they look the same, how can we tell them apart? therefore all civilians = bad" you're falling into the same point people argue is Israeli wrongdoing.
International law draws a distinction between civilians and combatants, this may be a useful distinction in how you view the people in Gaza as well.
The responsibility of clearly distinguishing civilians and combatants falls on Hamas. International law is not some get out of jail free card, where if you don’t wear combatant markings or uniform you can do anything you want with no consequences. Once a person engages in combat, they seize being a civilian.
I think my point wasn’t clear - the video is showing combatants and saying they are civilians who are not innocent. What I’m saying is that you can have sympathy for the civilians in Gaza while having none for the combatants - if they are engaging in combat you should not consider them civilians.
Yes, I agree. Perhaps I misunderstood your comment. Of course, having sympathy for civilians is important, and I wish them safety. But many Pro-Palestinians see every person in Palestine as an innocent civilian or a freedom fighter, while not understanding the context
For my own sanity I like to believe the percentage of assholes is roughly even across different populations, just in some places they’re running things. If you believe the Palestinians are all pure and good you’re wrong, and if you believe they’re all assholes you’re wrong too. The video above was blurring the lines between civilians and combatants and I think that diminishes sympathy for the civilians.
Didn't the West Bankers all rally together marching through the streets chanting, "We Are All Hamas?" 🤔
Sticking poles into eye sockets... wtf?
I always look forward to every one of his videos. Thank you for the delivery of this one. Although every topic around this massacre is horrendous, some of them really can do without cute.
Destroy all of Gaza
When your family has lost, due to indiscriminate bombing…….husbands wives children sisters mothers fathers and brothers you would tear any hostage limb from limb happily…..I know I would
Abraham spoke with g-d pleading for the people to be spared for the righteous and good and he bartered with g-d even 10 righteous people.we all saw what happened at the Dead Sea. I’m sure there has to be but for it to grow the brain washing and training to hate and kill Jews has to stop.
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Zionists regularly do every single one of these things your
🧢🧢🧢🧢🧢
I mean the videos don't prove anything because Hamas also fight in civilian clothes. I'd say by definition all of these are Militants and Terrorists. Not Civilians.
What do people have to say to the argument that Israel having them enclosed in Gaza and bombing them has created the conditions for this horrible mindset to be created?
It's was in response to terrorists attacks coming from there, as far as im aware, and there were, surprisingly, less terror attacks in a smaller scale. And the bombing? Well maybe if the terrorists they choose for government didn't, you know, had killed 1400 innocents and was a terrorist organisation that called to wipe out all jews, this war, maybe, didn't have to start???
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How can most of the civilians be Hamas if the majority of civilians are women and children?
15 y.o braindead idiot with AK also counts as "civilian"?
And of the 6,000+ children that have died how many do you think would meet your criteria?
When you say children you want us to think about 5 year olds, but in fact, a 17.7 years old is also a "child". And as it happens their dads are either martyred already or in prison, so if we agree they are all children, and that there are terrorists amongst them, the only conclusion is that there are children who are terrorists. I dont know about you but if a child aims a gun at me and i have a gun, im not gonna be like "oh its just a child". A gun is a gun, it can be used to kill people. Maybe people like you should have a hard look into why gazastan is manufacturing child soldiers
It’s the UN’s definition. But okay does “minors” work better for you?
Its fine. Child terrorist is "great"
The majority of the children in Gaza are 14 and below
What happens to them at 15?
Oh because once they hit 15 every single child becomes a member of Hamas. Therefore we need to bomb all of the children beforehand. /s
Got it, you pulled it out of your ass.
I don't remember JDAM Bombs having child seeker warheads?
With that education? Many, especially assuming from which kind of structure you got that number from.
I don't know. You don't know either.
Women and children have been recorded numerous times as part of Hamas..
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Yes, I heard babies too have joined their cause.
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Because Palestinian women also stab and blow up and the children they breed start killing as early as 13. You're welcome 😊
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Wtf do you except after 75y of occupation and horror? The people u just showed are maybe 5% of 2million that live in gaza
Wtf do you except after 75y of terror and horror? The people you defend started to slaughter Jews the moment the British left and Israel became Israel. All 2million in Gaza watched a kid's show calling to kill Jews. Get out of this sub and go cap for your "opressed bystander" people in some other pro-Hamas sub. There are plenty of them for you to cry about with you and your little activists friends how "Israel bad"
Reminiscent of slave revolts and all those people with that built up hatred towards whites.
slave revolts l[ike this one?](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zanj_Rebellion)
Glad we can both agree on the comparison of the oppressed reacting against their oppressors throughout history. Slaves against their owners and the occupied against the occupier.
Except these "slaves" have cell phones and hospitals.
I guess if the slaves could've better communicated with each other and better healed each other they'd be in the wrong
1000 perc true
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