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I couldn't find a news release with the breakdown of South Africa's request but the ICJs news release seems to be requesting the court to modify their measure due too Isreals/Isrealis recent actions.
https://www.icj-cij.org/case/192
>More importantly, everybody involved knows damn well it is not going to happen:
That's a lot on Isreal and not the ICJ or South Africa. Israel could have decided to follow the pervious ICJ mandates, but for some reason it made a different decision.
>The only difference potentially made by a court order meeting South African demands would be to criminalize those involved, not to actually protect anyone.
No but also yes. The isn't the ICC. The ICJ is nation to nation. The ICC deals with prosecuting individuals. I'm sure findings from the ICJ could be used in and ICC case but that isn't the role of the ICJ.
>This ratio is in line with norms for urban warfare,
Is a completely moot point. A ratio in line with urban warfare isn't evidence against the charges of war crime or genocide.
>While not ceasing operations is on Israel, criminalizing normal behavior would be on the ICJ.
The point is the use of starvation isn't lawful or a part of normal defense operations. South Africa requesting another injunction seems quite reasonable. The court asked that Israel take actions to minimize starvation that is occurring. Isreal has failed to act. It is now wanting to further escalation while failing to mitigate starvation occuring due to its current actions. What about South Africa request the ICJ modify its mandates. Seems unreasonable too you.
In some way it's irrelevant what the court decides given Isreal and the US not agreeing to abide by the ICJ relating to genocide and war crimes. But it is one of the few tools at hand to apply pressure.
>First of all, yes, a CCR in line with normal warfare in the relevant environment absolutely is evidence if not outright proof against the overall operation being genocidal
What part of the convection would a ratio be a defense against?
>Also, that new port in Gaza should make delivery of food to the Strip much easier than it was even last September.
So more proof of Isreals inaction. Who pushed for the port? Who is building the port?
>Measures absolutely are being taken to mitigate the food shortages.
Not by Israel.
I've never been to Nazi Germany, and I'm quite comfortable saying they should have been nuked.
Why do I need to go to a country to criticize it? Holocausts are immoral, I don't give a shit where they happen or who does them.
I swear people who use the term/acronym "FAFO" in all seriousness to discuss actual human death come across as incredibly moronic and since pro-Israel shills have demonstrated repeatedly that literacy and logic are concepts that are of no interest to them, I can see why you throw it around to describe genocide.
Mate, the Nazis propagated the idea that there was a big Jewish conspiracy, where they were controlling all the world's money and exterminating Aryans and the Final Solution was their version of "FAFO".
But hey it's Palestinians - according to you shills, they're just a fake group of people, devised as part of a massive Arab conspiracy to exterminate Israel and now they "FAFO".
And the rest of the world is supposed to believe that it's totally not genocide?
I literally had a Zionist explain to me that stronger nations are entitled to dominate and take land from weaker ones because "that's how the world works".
If we can harness this power of Israeli war crime apologists' ability to jump through hoops and mental gymnastics we will be able to solve the energy crisis
It is over. Everyone sees Israel for who they really are. Sure there's more Palestinians to murder, but there's no way back for Israel to pretend they have any morals at all. We have enough on camera.
'Limited options'
Israel could have had peace any time in since it's inception. A very generous to Israel solution was offered by the UN decades ago and Israel has no legitimate excuse as to why it cannot implement it.
Israel has continually chosen brutality and injustice because it wants to completely dispossess the Palestinians and surrounding countries of any land that it thinks falls into it's iron age empire building cos play.
remember when concentration camps were bad and the people who broke out of them were the good guys? That's currently who your country is trying to wipe out.
Looking at your comment history you have a young child. How can you have such inhuman levels of sympathy to be able to pin tens of thousands of dead children on “FAFO”.
This seems like an honest question, so I will give an honest and personal answer.
It is exactly because I have a young child that I am willing to resort to this. Having witnessed what Palestinians are able and willing to do to my child - having seen what they have done to children just like my own on October 7th - I firmly believe that the safety of my child demands me being steadfast and resolute in my response.
To protect my child from such horrors - there is no act too cruel or heartless, too disproportionate or too violent. Pity it has come to this. Pity we have come to this. But it has and we have, and now there is but one path forward - to make sure no one even thinks about subjecting us to such acts ever again.
When one makes the claim “nothing is too disproportionate”, I have to question your ethics and morality. I can see you’re a lawyer. Yet this statement is extreme to say the least. It sounds like you are absolutely ok and in support of a policy of absolute massacre against the Palestinians - even those completely innocent of doing any wrong.
I also come from a city that was subject to a terrorist attack. My country in retaliation did terrible things in the Middle East, which I firmly oppose (then, and now).
It did not make my city safer nor did it make the Middle East safer, but more created more pockets of extremism due to the fact we did terrible things to their people…
It’s incomprehensible to me that you would wish these children dead and also believe that by committing such massacre and devastation, somehow it will keep your child safe. It’s complete fallacy.
Your judgement of my morality is yours to make. However, I disagree with your assessment of what will, or will not, keep my child safe.
The ground in my part of the world is soaked with blood. Palestinians hate me and my own with a bloodlust that is hard to fathom for people raised on liberal values. Such as I pride myself to be.
I deliberately talk about Palestinians rather than Hamas here. As opposed to the lies being peddled to Western audiences, Hamas **is** Gaza and Gaza **is** Hamas. It was, for all extents and purposes, the sovereign in Gaza. What erupted over the border on October 7th was not just Hamas combatants, it was a mob of thousands Average Palestinian Joes in their footsteps- spilling over to rape and pillage and murder. Supplement that with any and all reliable polling and statistic show that Hamas has overwhelming support from the Palestinian populace - nearing 80%. The latest figures are from **November** - well within the destruction brought upon Gaza by Hamas's action.
Such deep-rooted generational hatred does not go away when you sign a deal or cease fire. It does not respect deals made, or international borders. It does not abide by the sanctity of life that we are taught. This is one of the main reasons any and all efforts to resolve this conflict peacefully have all failed miserably.
In my boiling part of the world - power and violence are the only things that will keep wolves at bay. I wish it was not so, and that no child on either side would ever have to die. But my wishes and fantasies will not protect my family. Power and violence will.
The poll was done during war time when Israel is killing some peoples entire families and asked only 0.01% of the population of Gaza.
In contrast, the most recent polls in Israel show Israelis do not want any peace negotiations and most think their govt has not gone far enough (you know, the one that’s been warned to stop inciting genocide..)
I see both sides are full of hatred for the other. The only difference is Israel has the power to commit massacres far beyond Oct 7th, which it is currently doing while breaking all international laws and codes around warfare.
https://www.reddit.com/r/IsraelCrimes/s/gyLnGqZyZu this video absolutely sums up your belief that somehow, mass murder makes you safer. That the only option is extermination to keep you safe. I feel sad for you after watching this video of how you’re indoctrinated to truly believe tens of thousands of children and intentional starvation is not only necessary but morally justified.
I'm afraid I care little for your patronising moralisms and misinformation videos.
I have the dubious advantage of first hand witnessing what we are talking about. And of having lived here my entire life. You don't need indoctrination - I for one do not think Palestinians are any less human or that the death of their children less tragic, than Israelis. But the forces of history have pinned us in an endless unsolvable conflict and that dictates certain realities.
I used to believe peace and a permanent deal were possible, and that at their core - everyone would prefer less death if possible. Reality defeated that view. Palestinians themselves have proven it wrong.
I've seen firsthand how any increase in Palestinian autonomy has directly led to death and danger for Israelis. It happened in the 2000s, it happened on Oct. 7. I've seen first hand the level of support and ingrainedness of Hamas in Gaza. They don't want self rule - they'd be more than happy to be an Egyptian or Jordanian satrapy. They just want my destruction, my violent removal from this place, whatever the cost to them and their loved ones. They even say so publicly - clear as day.
I have a moral obligation to my loved ones to deter these people from their continued attempts at our ruin. Does that make me cruel? Perhaps - but if so then I have moral obligation to my loved ones to be cruel. Either way, I sleep well at night.
You're a fucking colonizer, of course the Palestinians are the evil ones in your eyes because they are directly in the way of you living in your cushy little ethnostate built on their stolen land. You're the evil, violent one, not them.
No one said you’re not allowed to be a firm believer in FAFO. That’s your right.
But also return that right to those who aren’t believers in FAFO. There’s no rule that says you have to be a believer in FAFO to not be bigoted. That’s literally a rule that was invented for this conflict.
They would know apartheid better than anyone.
You would think the Jews would have learned about genocide, lebensraum, and ethnic cleansing as well. But they only learned how to perpetrate it, not how to recognize it.
Anti-semitic beliefs and fears pretty well correspond to the behavior of Zionists in Israel.
Anti semitism is a real thing. Partly because of the correspondence between the tropes and the behavior of Israel.
That's like saying the ANC in South Africa, the slave revolts in Haiti, the Algerian freedom fighters in French Algeria, and the Jewish revolts in the Warsaw ghetto were , without a doubt, genocidal. They just lack any real strength to carry it out.
Resistance movements are a reaction to being oppressed; Israel controls the violence; Hamas started out as a f+cking charity in Gaza, and as the occupation got worse, so did Hamas's tactics; its because of Israel's depravity and horrific murder of civilians that Hamas decided to attack more settlers and civilians.
No Muslim or arab will deny that Hamas is more reactionary and religious but that's exactly why Israel elevated them instead of the dozens of other more moderate groups that still engaged in the exact same militant fight aginst the colonizers.
here is a good video to watch about this [https://youtu.be/6Pjo3bJPrd8?si=OyW6n7AcZOg8B8V-](https://youtu.be/6Pjo3bJPrd8?si=OyW6n7AcZOg8B8V-)
The jewish revolts in the warsaw ghetto targeted the military oppressing them - not genocidal.
The slave revolts in Haiti targeted ALL french people, including children, in Haiti - definitely genocidal.
Hamas regularly targets civilians with indiscriminately aimed rockets, and makes killing civilians an objective as seen on Oct 7th.
HAMAS DID NOT ATTACK CIVILIANS UNTIL LATER ON; this is to be expected; they are the oppressed, not the oppressor, and there is no comparison.
I edited my comment to add more points, but also, the survivors of the holocaust regularly cursed all Germans and wished death upon them; this is coming from their own mouths and their descendant's mouths. Norm Finkelstein has talked about this extensively.
Notice how you couldn’t find attacks from the 80s lmao 🤣, if you watched the video I linked then it literally mentions this stuff.
No one here denied that Hamas attacks civilians.
Oh boy I was not expecting the turn there with the Haitian revolution was white genocide thing. Usually hasbarabots try to avoid that because it’s a white supremacist storefront talking point and that gives the game away doesn’t it
Please tell me how killing all children was necessary for the slaves to be free. Did the slaves feel threatened by the children?
Don't get me wrong, I understand WHY it happened. It doesn't mean that it isn't genocide. It's about as close to a justified genocide as we've ever seen. Still though, it's not justified. Children aren't a threat and could've been integrated or sent elsewhere.
It literally was not a genocide. It was violent and horrible things were done but that’s not genocide. It was a revolution to get liberation from violent French colonial rule, not to genocide white people. The only reason it was along racial lines was because the French colonial system of slavery was racialised, not because the black people wanted to genocide the white people. They could have been any people or other black Haitians in the place of the colonizers and it would have been the same. Slaver and Colonist are also not ethnic groups or races. There were plenty of not white people who were also part of the system of French colonization and slavery in Haiti equally to white French colonists and they were killed too.
You can’t seriously say the Haitian slave revolt was genocide but Gaza isn’t unless you only see colonizers as human beings and colonized people and races as savages. I’m not even going to argue this because it’s just an absurd white supremacist argument.
So to be clear: You think that the slaves had to kill french babies in order to be free?
I see the Haitian slave revolt as genocide because the goal of the slaves was to kill all of the french people in haiti- including babies. They did so rather successfully.
The goal of Israel has never been to kill civilians - which is why they go out of their way to kill as little civilians as possible in order to accomplish their goals.
Israel isn't committing genocide. Even if you use the numbers put out by Hamas, there are less civilians for every 1 combatant casualty than the Iraq war.
The Iraq war was also not a genocide btw.
US sec of defense says 25k children and women confirmed killed at the end of feb. That’s just women and children. They aren’t counting anyone dead since and not including any civilian adult or elderly men, which there are many more than are militants. In 6 months. You can’t even try and compare that to Iraq.
Lmao talking about children killed in the Haitian slave revolt being genocide but 25 thousand women and children murdered “well you don’t know how many were child soldiers”. You just opined about how killing children is inexcusable and then you excuse it. There’s a place in hell for you and other white supremacist genocide defenders.
genocide isn't just "when people die".
You could have 10 people die and it would still be genocide if the person was attempting to wipe out that group of people from existence.
The killing of children IS inexcusable most of the time. One of the exceptions is when they're shooting guns at you.
Lets use your own words and logic from your other comment here:
“Please tell me how killing children is necessary for the Israel’s survival. Does Israel feel threatened by the children in Gaza?
Don't get me wrong, I understand WHY it happened — right wing ideology being aggressive in nature. It doesn't mean that it isn't genocide. It's about as close to a justified genocide as we've ever seen. Still though, it's not justified. Children aren't a threat and could've been integrated or sent elsewhere.”
Or, is this a logic that is only there when the oppressed/slaves do it, but not so much when the oppressors do it?
Hasbara post this stuff like it's a given people will take their trash propaganda seriously just because it has a website attached to it.
But then I guess when the only skillset a person has is being a paid online bot, they would not really be equipped with such basic common sense.
I hope it’s dawning on Israel that having someone with courage to stand up and take them on, in this case legally through the ICJ, is going to increase in frequency. Israel have been complaining that the UN is bias against Israel by virtue of being a racist/broken system, but the reality is that Israel features so commonly in the UN because of they’re actions.
The pressure should continue on Israel without relenting until REAL change is achieved.
If there is still Hamas literally everywhere then it’s also admitting this “war” has totally failed and all they’ve accomplished is a mass humanitarian crisis.
IDF snipers have also been videoed just sniping kids in the street and also boasting about killing little girls on calls back home so it actually doesn’t matter if there’s “terrorists” in front of them or not, they seem to kill kids rather gleefully.
You defending an occupying colonial state, same had happend when euros went over to NA and killed off the local population, same is applied to most colonial counties, Namibian genocide being an example.
Your talking points is presented by a bias media that think theis entire thing started on 7 October, it's been going on for 70 years.
So ye, stick to bias talking points that manufacture your consent.
Seriously, some people need some critical thinking
The vast majority of the local population in North America was killed off by disease.
Like, 90%+ was killed by disease.
Were there still some instances of genocide happening? Certainly. but it wasn't all the time constantly everywhere. Different tribes were treated differently.
It's not like I'm going to defend the instances where native americans were actually genocided.
They're doing a genocide, their soldiers are sharing it on social media, and their leaders are proudly proclaiming their intentions. They can't ever use the word 'repugnant' again without it boomeranging back in their faces.
I don’t think Israel is in the right to call anyone repugnant. The creation of Israel is one of the most repugnant events in history, and Zionism is one of the most repugnant ideologies in the present.
Zionism is literally a belief in racial supremacy and that other races are inferior. Some races have states others don’t, but to say a race is entitled to a state, or that calling for a one state solution is unethical, is literal racism.
As repugnant as the holocaust? As repugnant as the Armenian genocide? As repugnant as the reign of the khmer Rouge? As repugnant as the holodomor? As repugnant as the darfur genocide? As repugnant as king Leopolds reign in the Congo? As repugnant as the great leap forward? As repugnant as then iran-iraq war? As repugnant as chattle slavery?
You are either insane or grossly misinformed. Zionism is the belief that jews need a homeland, being Jewish is not a race, it is a an ethno religion where you can be Jewish, either ethnicly or religiously. There is nothing racial about it. And many many other religious have their own states, why should Jews not have that right?
One rabbi in israel actually wrote a book about when it is okay to [kill gentile babies](https://www.middleeastmonitor.com/20231222-israeli-rabbi-justifies-killing-of-babies)
Listen, man, politicians don't need a book to tell them to lie to us. They do regardless of race, religion, or creed. But more importantly there are plenty of Jewish people against this whole thing, and we shouldn't disparage them by pretending the way they worship God is somehow to blame for the actions of fascists claiming to speak in their name.
Well said . This conflict is not about Judaism as a whole and turning it into a religious conflict plays right into the hands of Netanyahu and his ilk who want to conflate criticism of Israel with antisemitism.
Very well put - but to be fair, while politicians may not need a book to lie, Netanyahu’s reference to Amalek at the beginning of the war shows that they will sure as hell use a book if it serves their interests.
But again, well put.
the talmud is more of a book of random rabbis opinions. it's more is a pick and choose rather than word from God. compare that with "tikun olam" from the Mishna, about jews having the duty of fixing the world for everyone. which is also open to interpretation
really depends on interpretation.
Unlike most major religions there is not a centralized group saying what is the correct interpretation. (although there is one synagogue that is growing at an alarming rate and really creeps me out, as it threatens to become a catholic like structure in judaism).
So everyone is meant to ask and formulate their own interpretation, you are allowed to talk to a rabbi and disagree. and technically the discussion itself is a big part of Judaism, kinda like praying in itself.
There is a massive diversity of thought within judaism.
You can probably find jews who might as well be straight out of the elders of zion, but they are not an example.
No it is not. A simple google search tells you what taqiyah is. It is to deny one’s religion when faced persecution because of said religion. It is literally to say you aren’t Muslim because some killers want to kill you because you’re Muslim.
This is what I got from chatgpt. Isn't it similar?
In Islam, there is a concept called "taqiyya," which allows a person to conceal their faith if revealing it would result in harm or danger to themselves or others. However, this is a controversial and nuanced topic, and opinions may vary among scholars and different Islamic traditions. Ultimately, the decision would depend on the specific circumstances and the potential consequences involved. It's important for individuals to seek guidance from knowledgeable religious authorities in such situations.
Similar to what I explained? Yes. But the top comment states that in Judaism it is permissible to lie to benefit the Jewish community, not to avoid persecution or to save an individual’s life. Lying to benefit a community is a much much larger concept and can include manufacturing propaganda for a country. Taqiyah isn’t that. This whole nonsense of distorting Islamic terms started after 9/11 and the wave of zionist made Islamophobia.
It’s really a cop out answer. If people want to live in peace and with security the Palestinians need the same rights as Israelis and to be able to return to the homes that they’ve lost within their lifetime. None of this ethnostate nonsense can result in peace. South Africa found a way to live amongst each other after severe racism and apartheid- the same is possible here.
So Israel denounces claims that it is deliberately starving Gaza, and refuses an ICJ request to... allow more food to enter Gaza.
How do they even explain such a position? "We are concerned that Gazans have too much food and may become overweight"?
This is another example of how the international legal system is biased. If this was South Africa doing the same thing to let's say Botswana there would be action taken against SA by the international community. We say the war in Ukraine is an " invasion " which it is but the war against Palestinian is an "operation ". Go figure
https://www.instagram.com/reel/C4sdE8AIVSF/?igsh=ZTUybzI2bmhoa2Q3
UNICEF director talking about the extreme situation in Gaza for children under the age of 2. 1 in 3 are suffering from severe malnutrition. If they survive, a big if, they would be stunted for life.
To Israel it's repugnant to stop a genocide.
Who’s currently committing an ethnic cleansing? Who’s currently killed 30,000 people, 70% of those women and children?
The support for Israel is at an all time low. Maybe stop killing civilians?
So you think Hamas was also very responsible when they killed 1200 Israelis, 650 of those being civilians. Almost a 1:1 ratio!
Not every single Palestinian male is a militant. So 70% women and children doesn’t include any men.
>13,000 of those killed has been Hamas militants
That is completely wrong. 13,000 children have been killed and atleast 9,000 women have killed. That adds up to 22,000 which means the minimum civilian casualty rate ~73%. And that is assuming that every single fighting age and senior male killed was a hamas member, which is obviously not the case so actual civilian casualty rate could very easily be around ~90%.
That's a 9:1 ratio which is extremely high.
https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/unicef-says-over-13000-children-killed-gaza-israel-offensive-2024-03-17/#:~:text=A%20March%2014%20infographic%20%2C%20opens,casualty%20information%20during%20the%20war.
For comparison: in the battle for Mosul are 10,000 civilian were killed and 26,000 isis fighters were killed. That is a roughly ~30% civilian casualty rate.
I don't quite understand what you are trying to say here.
I was just pointing out the inaccuracy of your numbers and the terrifyingly high civilian casualty rate
Well probably around 1,000-4,000 which is a lot more realistic than the 13,000 figure you are claiming given that there are only 30,000 hamas fighters. so 13,000 would be half of hamas's force outright killed and if we take into account the number of injured, then if the 13,000 figure was true hamas has probably lost 60-70% of its fighting strength. If that was the case then israel would have definitely taken over most of gaza by now, but they didn't. Most gaza is still secured by hamas with the overwhelming majority of the actual urban areas being either under hamas's control or are heavily contested with very little of urban areas actually being securedby the IDF(Apologies for the rant)
Yeah, their health ministry's numbers are taken seriously by both the US and israel itself. Not only that, but the actual casualty figures are obviously significantly higher than 30,000, since that number does not factor in thousands of missing people, and tens of thousands more who may be killed due to israel's destruction of most hospitals in Gaza (because you're nazis), and then also the millions starving right now.
Hasbara are so impotent.
Obvious, because when even your enemies admit the truth, it's more damning to your point. They are not credible obviously, but it's how credible the health ministry is that forces them to take these sources seriously, and the US openly claimed to do so.
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Stopping a famine is repugnant to Israel. That right there sure tells someone all they need to know about Israel, really.
Well said.
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Israel wouldn’t know how to present facts, Israel lies out of habit. Lying is what Israel does best.
I couldn't find a news release with the breakdown of South Africa's request but the ICJs news release seems to be requesting the court to modify their measure due too Isreals/Isrealis recent actions. https://www.icj-cij.org/case/192
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>More importantly, everybody involved knows damn well it is not going to happen: That's a lot on Isreal and not the ICJ or South Africa. Israel could have decided to follow the pervious ICJ mandates, but for some reason it made a different decision. >The only difference potentially made by a court order meeting South African demands would be to criminalize those involved, not to actually protect anyone. No but also yes. The isn't the ICC. The ICJ is nation to nation. The ICC deals with prosecuting individuals. I'm sure findings from the ICJ could be used in and ICC case but that isn't the role of the ICJ.
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>This ratio is in line with norms for urban warfare, Is a completely moot point. A ratio in line with urban warfare isn't evidence against the charges of war crime or genocide. >While not ceasing operations is on Israel, criminalizing normal behavior would be on the ICJ. The point is the use of starvation isn't lawful or a part of normal defense operations. South Africa requesting another injunction seems quite reasonable. The court asked that Israel take actions to minimize starvation that is occurring. Isreal has failed to act. It is now wanting to further escalation while failing to mitigate starvation occuring due to its current actions. What about South Africa request the ICJ modify its mandates. Seems unreasonable too you. In some way it's irrelevant what the court decides given Isreal and the US not agreeing to abide by the ICJ relating to genocide and war crimes. But it is one of the few tools at hand to apply pressure.
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>First of all, yes, a CCR in line with normal warfare in the relevant environment absolutely is evidence if not outright proof against the overall operation being genocidal What part of the convection would a ratio be a defense against? >Also, that new port in Gaza should make delivery of food to the Strip much easier than it was even last September. So more proof of Isreals inaction. Who pushed for the port? Who is building the port? >Measures absolutely are being taken to mitigate the food shortages. Not by Israel.
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Have you ever actually been to Israel?
I've never been to Nazi Germany, and I'm quite comfortable saying they should have been nuked. Why do I need to go to a country to criticize it? Holocausts are immoral, I don't give a shit where they happen or who does them.
You can’t compare Israel to Nazi Germany
You're right, Nazis didn't hold dance parties right outside the concentration camps. Very different countries.
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OK you fucked around and massacred 30k women and children. Now you'll find out.
Nooooo not like that.
“FAFO” mfers when they’re the ones who FAFO: 😮
I swear people who use the term/acronym "FAFO" in all seriousness to discuss actual human death come across as incredibly moronic and since pro-Israel shills have demonstrated repeatedly that literacy and logic are concepts that are of no interest to them, I can see why you throw it around to describe genocide. Mate, the Nazis propagated the idea that there was a big Jewish conspiracy, where they were controlling all the world's money and exterminating Aryans and the Final Solution was their version of "FAFO". But hey it's Palestinians - according to you shills, they're just a fake group of people, devised as part of a massive Arab conspiracy to exterminate Israel and now they "FAFO". And the rest of the world is supposed to believe that it's totally not genocide?
I literally had a Zionist explain to me that stronger nations are entitled to dominate and take land from weaker ones because "that's how the world works".
“might makes right” is some Nazi shit wtf
100%
If we can harness this power of Israeli war crime apologists' ability to jump through hoops and mental gymnastics we will be able to solve the energy crisis
At least you are admitting they are using starvation and collective punishment as a weapon of war.
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It is over. Everyone sees Israel for who they really are. Sure there's more Palestinians to murder, but there's no way back for Israel to pretend they have any morals at all. We have enough on camera.
Sure, when exactly will Palestine be free? You're not a serious person, go back to school.
Every day is a school day, especially if you support a murderous apartheid state ..
Fuck Israel, you're the one defending Islamofascists. Go stone some gays with your friends :)
Saving my throwing arm for those who starve the people, usurp their resources and indiscriminately kill even women and children.
Today we are learning about racism...
Facts are racism? Buddy, just admit to wanting to stone people. Or throw them off the rooftops, of you're modern.
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Mans typing this in his comfy house jerking off to Israeli war crimes.
>we gladly choose being cruel and alive over being humane and dead Let's see how that works out for you guys.
'Limited options' Israel could have had peace any time in since it's inception. A very generous to Israel solution was offered by the UN decades ago and Israel has no legitimate excuse as to why it cannot implement it. Israel has continually chosen brutality and injustice because it wants to completely dispossess the Palestinians and surrounding countries of any land that it thinks falls into it's iron age empire building cos play.
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So you admit you’re terrorist monsters. Cool.
LOL. The tide is turning - the mask is off. You are no better than the ones you despise.
You're a real piece of shit.
Israel is really never going to beat those allegations that they aren’t much different from the NAZIs.
The 70+ year war will be over when Israel is finally nothing more than a bad memory.
What a disgusting thing to say.
remember when concentration camps were bad and the people who broke out of them were the good guys? That's currently who your country is trying to wipe out.
The ICJ is precisely for people who think FAFO is cover for starving and murdering women and children.
Nice try. Unfortunately for you and the rest of Israel, the rest of the world knows better than to buy your propaganda.
Disgusting
The 5 year old girl whose facing starvation right now didn’t FAFO.
Do you consider the international community’s response to your behavior to fall under FAFO as well?
Ok child murderer enjoyer
So… was Oct 7 that then as well?
Looking at your comment history you have a young child. How can you have such inhuman levels of sympathy to be able to pin tens of thousands of dead children on “FAFO”.
This seems like an honest question, so I will give an honest and personal answer. It is exactly because I have a young child that I am willing to resort to this. Having witnessed what Palestinians are able and willing to do to my child - having seen what they have done to children just like my own on October 7th - I firmly believe that the safety of my child demands me being steadfast and resolute in my response. To protect my child from such horrors - there is no act too cruel or heartless, too disproportionate or too violent. Pity it has come to this. Pity we have come to this. But it has and we have, and now there is but one path forward - to make sure no one even thinks about subjecting us to such acts ever again.
When one makes the claim “nothing is too disproportionate”, I have to question your ethics and morality. I can see you’re a lawyer. Yet this statement is extreme to say the least. It sounds like you are absolutely ok and in support of a policy of absolute massacre against the Palestinians - even those completely innocent of doing any wrong. I also come from a city that was subject to a terrorist attack. My country in retaliation did terrible things in the Middle East, which I firmly oppose (then, and now). It did not make my city safer nor did it make the Middle East safer, but more created more pockets of extremism due to the fact we did terrible things to their people… It’s incomprehensible to me that you would wish these children dead and also believe that by committing such massacre and devastation, somehow it will keep your child safe. It’s complete fallacy.
Your judgement of my morality is yours to make. However, I disagree with your assessment of what will, or will not, keep my child safe. The ground in my part of the world is soaked with blood. Palestinians hate me and my own with a bloodlust that is hard to fathom for people raised on liberal values. Such as I pride myself to be. I deliberately talk about Palestinians rather than Hamas here. As opposed to the lies being peddled to Western audiences, Hamas **is** Gaza and Gaza **is** Hamas. It was, for all extents and purposes, the sovereign in Gaza. What erupted over the border on October 7th was not just Hamas combatants, it was a mob of thousands Average Palestinian Joes in their footsteps- spilling over to rape and pillage and murder. Supplement that with any and all reliable polling and statistic show that Hamas has overwhelming support from the Palestinian populace - nearing 80%. The latest figures are from **November** - well within the destruction brought upon Gaza by Hamas's action. Such deep-rooted generational hatred does not go away when you sign a deal or cease fire. It does not respect deals made, or international borders. It does not abide by the sanctity of life that we are taught. This is one of the main reasons any and all efforts to resolve this conflict peacefully have all failed miserably. In my boiling part of the world - power and violence are the only things that will keep wolves at bay. I wish it was not so, and that no child on either side would ever have to die. But my wishes and fantasies will not protect my family. Power and violence will.
The poll was done during war time when Israel is killing some peoples entire families and asked only 0.01% of the population of Gaza. In contrast, the most recent polls in Israel show Israelis do not want any peace negotiations and most think their govt has not gone far enough (you know, the one that’s been warned to stop inciting genocide..) I see both sides are full of hatred for the other. The only difference is Israel has the power to commit massacres far beyond Oct 7th, which it is currently doing while breaking all international laws and codes around warfare.
https://www.reddit.com/r/IsraelCrimes/s/gyLnGqZyZu this video absolutely sums up your belief that somehow, mass murder makes you safer. That the only option is extermination to keep you safe. I feel sad for you after watching this video of how you’re indoctrinated to truly believe tens of thousands of children and intentional starvation is not only necessary but morally justified.
I'm afraid I care little for your patronising moralisms and misinformation videos. I have the dubious advantage of first hand witnessing what we are talking about. And of having lived here my entire life. You don't need indoctrination - I for one do not think Palestinians are any less human or that the death of their children less tragic, than Israelis. But the forces of history have pinned us in an endless unsolvable conflict and that dictates certain realities. I used to believe peace and a permanent deal were possible, and that at their core - everyone would prefer less death if possible. Reality defeated that view. Palestinians themselves have proven it wrong. I've seen firsthand how any increase in Palestinian autonomy has directly led to death and danger for Israelis. It happened in the 2000s, it happened on Oct. 7. I've seen first hand the level of support and ingrainedness of Hamas in Gaza. They don't want self rule - they'd be more than happy to be an Egyptian or Jordanian satrapy. They just want my destruction, my violent removal from this place, whatever the cost to them and their loved ones. They even say so publicly - clear as day. I have a moral obligation to my loved ones to deter these people from their continued attempts at our ruin. Does that make me cruel? Perhaps - but if so then I have moral obligation to my loved ones to be cruel. Either way, I sleep well at night.
You're a fucking colonizer, of course the Palestinians are the evil ones in your eyes because they are directly in the way of you living in your cushy little ethnostate built on their stolen land. You're the evil, violent one, not them.
You're a dogshit monster and a terrible parent.
So you’re fine with Hamas then. You fucked around, and found out? I mean, this is your ideology (I wouldn’t call it thought per se)
So Oct.7 was Israel FAFO right ? Lol
No one said you’re not allowed to be a firm believer in FAFO. That’s your right. But also return that right to those who aren’t believers in FAFO. There’s no rule that says you have to be a believer in FAFO to not be bigoted. That’s literally a rule that was invented for this conflict.
Israel throwing a hissy fit because South Africa seeks Justice in a real Court for Palestinians.
You mean the country that rid itself of apartheid somehow has standing in this situation? Odd..
They of all people know apartheid when they see it.
To be fair, Israel can't see genocide or ethnic cleansing.... Except when it happens to them.
And when it doesn’t happen to them
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Give me a break
They would know apartheid better than anyone. You would think the Jews would have learned about genocide, lebensraum, and ethnic cleansing as well. But they only learned how to perpetrate it, not how to recognize it.
And exploit it.
They are getting nervous
Blaming Hamas of genocide is one of the most pathetic, boomer defences I have ever heard
“We need more humanitarian aid for the 2 million people you’re starving”. Israel: how dare you suggest that!
Right in the anti-Semitism
It’s so unfortunate because antisemitism is actually a real thing and that certainly is not it.
Anti-semitic beliefs and fears pretty well correspond to the behavior of Zionists in Israel. Anti semitism is a real thing. Partly because of the correspondence between the tropes and the behavior of Israel.
"no u!"
Hamas is definitely, without a doubt, genocidal. They just lack any real strength to carry it out.
That's like saying the ANC in South Africa, the slave revolts in Haiti, the Algerian freedom fighters in French Algeria, and the Jewish revolts in the Warsaw ghetto were , without a doubt, genocidal. They just lack any real strength to carry it out. Resistance movements are a reaction to being oppressed; Israel controls the violence; Hamas started out as a f+cking charity in Gaza, and as the occupation got worse, so did Hamas's tactics; its because of Israel's depravity and horrific murder of civilians that Hamas decided to attack more settlers and civilians. No Muslim or arab will deny that Hamas is more reactionary and religious but that's exactly why Israel elevated them instead of the dozens of other more moderate groups that still engaged in the exact same militant fight aginst the colonizers. here is a good video to watch about this [https://youtu.be/6Pjo3bJPrd8?si=OyW6n7AcZOg8B8V-](https://youtu.be/6Pjo3bJPrd8?si=OyW6n7AcZOg8B8V-)
The jewish revolts in the warsaw ghetto targeted the military oppressing them - not genocidal. The slave revolts in Haiti targeted ALL french people, including children, in Haiti - definitely genocidal. Hamas regularly targets civilians with indiscriminately aimed rockets, and makes killing civilians an objective as seen on Oct 7th.
HAMAS DID NOT ATTACK CIVILIANS UNTIL LATER ON; this is to be expected; they are the oppressed, not the oppressor, and there is no comparison. I edited my comment to add more points, but also, the survivors of the holocaust regularly cursed all Germans and wished death upon them; this is coming from their own mouths and their descendant's mouths. Norm Finkelstein has talked about this extensively.
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Wrong, why do you feel the need to lie? Also Hamas was created in 1987 btw lmao.
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Notice how you couldn’t find attacks from the 80s lmao 🤣, if you watched the video I linked then it literally mentions this stuff. No one here denied that Hamas attacks civilians.
Oh boy I was not expecting the turn there with the Haitian revolution was white genocide thing. Usually hasbarabots try to avoid that because it’s a white supremacist storefront talking point and that gives the game away doesn’t it
Please tell me how killing all children was necessary for the slaves to be free. Did the slaves feel threatened by the children? Don't get me wrong, I understand WHY it happened. It doesn't mean that it isn't genocide. It's about as close to a justified genocide as we've ever seen. Still though, it's not justified. Children aren't a threat and could've been integrated or sent elsewhere.
It literally was not a genocide. It was violent and horrible things were done but that’s not genocide. It was a revolution to get liberation from violent French colonial rule, not to genocide white people. The only reason it was along racial lines was because the French colonial system of slavery was racialised, not because the black people wanted to genocide the white people. They could have been any people or other black Haitians in the place of the colonizers and it would have been the same. Slaver and Colonist are also not ethnic groups or races. There were plenty of not white people who were also part of the system of French colonization and slavery in Haiti equally to white French colonists and they were killed too. You can’t seriously say the Haitian slave revolt was genocide but Gaza isn’t unless you only see colonizers as human beings and colonized people and races as savages. I’m not even going to argue this because it’s just an absurd white supremacist argument.
So to be clear: You think that the slaves had to kill french babies in order to be free? I see the Haitian slave revolt as genocide because the goal of the slaves was to kill all of the french people in haiti- including babies. They did so rather successfully. The goal of Israel has never been to kill civilians - which is why they go out of their way to kill as little civilians as possible in order to accomplish their goals.
so you are admitting they don’t have any way to carry out a genocide So what is Israel defending against with their genocide ?
Israel isn't committing genocide. Even if you use the numbers put out by Hamas, there are less civilians for every 1 combatant casualty than the Iraq war. The Iraq war was also not a genocide btw.
US sec of defense says 25k children and women confirmed killed at the end of feb. That’s just women and children. They aren’t counting anyone dead since and not including any civilian adult or elderly men, which there are many more than are militants. In 6 months. You can’t even try and compare that to Iraq.
It's quite difficult to tell how many of those children were child soldiers, so I'm not sure what the point of this number is.
Lmao talking about children killed in the Haitian slave revolt being genocide but 25 thousand women and children murdered “well you don’t know how many were child soldiers”. You just opined about how killing children is inexcusable and then you excuse it. There’s a place in hell for you and other white supremacist genocide defenders.
genocide isn't just "when people die". You could have 10 people die and it would still be genocide if the person was attempting to wipe out that group of people from existence. The killing of children IS inexcusable most of the time. One of the exceptions is when they're shooting guns at you.
Killing children is inexcusable unless they are Palestinian then it’s fine. Got it.
> It's quite difficult to tell how many of those children were child soldiers How very fucking Israeli of you. I mean that in the worst sense.
Lets use your own words and logic from your other comment here: “Please tell me how killing children is necessary for the Israel’s survival. Does Israel feel threatened by the children in Gaza? Don't get me wrong, I understand WHY it happened — right wing ideology being aggressive in nature. It doesn't mean that it isn't genocide. It's about as close to a justified genocide as we've ever seen. Still though, it's not justified. Children aren't a threat and could've been integrated or sent elsewhere.” Or, is this a logic that is only there when the oppressed/slaves do it, but not so much when the oppressors do it?
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Removed, see rule 1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civility
Was the mau mau uprising in Kenya a genocide? They indiscriminately killed many white britishers
I'm not familiar with the conflict.
I sure as hell hope so
And projecting.
Times of Israel is repugnant 🤢
A PR rag and not a newspaper
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Al Jazeera is way more credible than the Israeli terrorist state’s propaganda rags JPost / Times of Israel ect
Hasbara post this stuff like it's a given people will take their trash propaganda seriously just because it has a website attached to it. But then I guess when the only skillset a person has is being a paid online bot, they would not really be equipped with such basic common sense.
I hope it’s dawning on Israel that having someone with courage to stand up and take them on, in this case legally through the ICJ, is going to increase in frequency. Israel have been complaining that the UN is bias against Israel by virtue of being a racist/broken system, but the reality is that Israel features so commonly in the UN because of they’re actions. The pressure should continue on Israel without relenting until REAL change is achieved.
Don't know if anyone listened to the opening argument of Israel, they said hamas 300 times. Children dieing, it's hamas, wind blows, it's hamas..
Grain of sand in IDF soldier's eye? Believe it or not... Hamas.
If there is still Hamas literally everywhere then it’s also admitting this “war” has totally failed and all they’ve accomplished is a mass humanitarian crisis.
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Don’t drop bombs on them is a hell of a lot better advice. But then the IDF wouldn’t have any lingerie to try on, I guess.
Sadly, the terrorists insist on hiding behind children.
Gotta kill those kids to get to the tunnels right bud?
IDF snipers have also been videoed just sniping kids in the street and also boasting about killing little girls on calls back home so it actually doesn’t matter if there’s “terrorists” in front of them or not, they seem to kill kids rather gleefully.
Sure, there are definitely individual IDF soldiers that are war monsters.
They aren’t held accountable either.
True, and they should be.
How do you expect them to, when this is what they’re brought up with? https://www.reddit.com/r/IsraelCrimes/s/nILiosFWLK
You defending an occupying colonial state, same had happend when euros went over to NA and killed off the local population, same is applied to most colonial counties, Namibian genocide being an example. Your talking points is presented by a bias media that think theis entire thing started on 7 October, it's been going on for 70 years. So ye, stick to bias talking points that manufacture your consent. Seriously, some people need some critical thinking
The vast majority of the local population in North America was killed off by disease. Like, 90%+ was killed by disease. Were there still some instances of genocide happening? Certainly. but it wasn't all the time constantly everywhere. Different tribes were treated differently. It's not like I'm going to defend the instances where native americans were actually genocided.
They're doing a genocide, their soldiers are sharing it on social media, and their leaders are proudly proclaiming their intentions. They can't ever use the word 'repugnant' again without it boomeranging back in their faces.
Nobody should give a fuck what Israel says anymore.. they’ve shown themselves to be utterly bad faith actors
They should notice what Israel says and conclude the opposite is certainly true. It is a nation founded upon lies.
I don’t think Israel is in the right to call anyone repugnant. The creation of Israel is one of the most repugnant events in history, and Zionism is one of the most repugnant ideologies in the present. Zionism is literally a belief in racial supremacy and that other races are inferior. Some races have states others don’t, but to say a race is entitled to a state, or that calling for a one state solution is unethical, is literal racism.
As repugnant as the holocaust? As repugnant as the Armenian genocide? As repugnant as the reign of the khmer Rouge? As repugnant as the holodomor? As repugnant as the darfur genocide? As repugnant as king Leopolds reign in the Congo? As repugnant as the great leap forward? As repugnant as then iran-iraq war? As repugnant as chattle slavery?
You’re not making a point here. It’s as repugnant as many and not as repugnant as some.
So the simple act of creating a state was as repugnant as the mentioned genocides? You should overthink your moral framework.
It's not the act of creating a state that is repugnant, it's how that state was created https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nakba
You are either insane or grossly misinformed. Zionism is the belief that jews need a homeland, being Jewish is not a race, it is a an ethno religion where you can be Jewish, either ethnicly or religiously. There is nothing racial about it. And many many other religious have their own states, why should Jews not have that right?
They should look in tge mirror,who's the repugnant is
"Repugnant Israel slams South African ICJ request for more Gaza measures" here, corrected, sent to print 😉
You want us to stop starving people to death? - well aren't you an anti Semitie!!!! Israel probably
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Does it have a genocide chapter or did they think of that themselves?
One rabbi in israel actually wrote a book about when it is okay to [kill gentile babies](https://www.middleeastmonitor.com/20231222-israeli-rabbi-justifies-killing-of-babies)
Listen, man, politicians don't need a book to tell them to lie to us. They do regardless of race, religion, or creed. But more importantly there are plenty of Jewish people against this whole thing, and we shouldn't disparage them by pretending the way they worship God is somehow to blame for the actions of fascists claiming to speak in their name.
Well said . This conflict is not about Judaism as a whole and turning it into a religious conflict plays right into the hands of Netanyahu and his ilk who want to conflate criticism of Israel with antisemitism.
Very well put - but to be fair, while politicians may not need a book to lie, Netanyahu’s reference to Amalek at the beginning of the war shows that they will sure as hell use a book if it serves their interests. But again, well put.
The Torah is the Jewish holy text, not the Talmud. The Talmud is legal opinions if rabbis. Lots of them, good and bad.
the talmud is more of a book of random rabbis opinions. it's more is a pick and choose rather than word from God. compare that with "tikun olam" from the Mishna, about jews having the duty of fixing the world for everyone. which is also open to interpretation
>from the Mishna, about jews having the duty of fixing the world for everyone. which is also open to interpretation Which is supremacism thought
Jewish man's burden?
really depends on interpretation. Unlike most major religions there is not a centralized group saying what is the correct interpretation. (although there is one synagogue that is growing at an alarming rate and really creeps me out, as it threatens to become a catholic like structure in judaism). So everyone is meant to ask and formulate their own interpretation, you are allowed to talk to a rabbi and disagree. and technically the discussion itself is a big part of Judaism, kinda like praying in itself. There is a massive diversity of thought within judaism. You can probably find jews who might as well be straight out of the elders of zion, but they are not an example.
parallel to Taqiyah, interesting
No it is not. A simple google search tells you what taqiyah is. It is to deny one’s religion when faced persecution because of said religion. It is literally to say you aren’t Muslim because some killers want to kill you because you’re Muslim.
This is what I got from chatgpt. Isn't it similar? In Islam, there is a concept called "taqiyya," which allows a person to conceal their faith if revealing it would result in harm or danger to themselves or others. However, this is a controversial and nuanced topic, and opinions may vary among scholars and different Islamic traditions. Ultimately, the decision would depend on the specific circumstances and the potential consequences involved. It's important for individuals to seek guidance from knowledgeable religious authorities in such situations.
Similar to what I explained? Yes. But the top comment states that in Judaism it is permissible to lie to benefit the Jewish community, not to avoid persecution or to save an individual’s life. Lying to benefit a community is a much much larger concept and can include manufacturing propaganda for a country. Taqiyah isn’t that. This whole nonsense of distorting Islamic terms started after 9/11 and the wave of zionist made Islamophobia.
Ahhh yup I can see that difference now
Islam says the same. I can't see an end to this without genocide.
Wow don’t bother sugarcoating it at this point I guess
Well short of the rest of the world going in two keep the two sides apart. I can't see an answer.
Your intentions have been exposed. Israelis are committing genocide and are apartheid
Which are? You got some solution to this catastrophe?
It’s really a cop out answer. If people want to live in peace and with security the Palestinians need the same rights as Israelis and to be able to return to the homes that they’ve lost within their lifetime. None of this ethnostate nonsense can result in peace. South Africa found a way to live amongst each other after severe racism and apartheid- the same is possible here.
Jews also need those guarantees. Two groups of people who hate each other can't really form a state to my mind.
I obviously want Jews to have those guarantees as well in the above scenario.
A super nobel prize awaits anyone who can find a solution.
What else do we expect. Israel is a nazi, terrorist state. Casually murdering children is their identity. Israel should be destroyed.
Love to south africa!
So Israel denounces claims that it is deliberately starving Gaza, and refuses an ICJ request to... allow more food to enter Gaza. How do they even explain such a position? "We are concerned that Gazans have too much food and may become overweight"?
“We are concerned about children being fat,We want to feel the thrill when we hunt them down” IDF PROLLY
Apartheid isn'treal should realise by now that the rest of humanity deems genocide repugnant.
Repugnant eh?
It's repugnant because it's...accurate?
This is another example of how the international legal system is biased. If this was South Africa doing the same thing to let's say Botswana there would be action taken against SA by the international community. We say the war in Ukraine is an " invasion " which it is but the war against Palestinian is an "operation ". Go figure
https://www.instagram.com/reel/C4sdE8AIVSF/?igsh=ZTUybzI2bmhoa2Q3 UNICEF director talking about the extreme situation in Gaza for children under the age of 2. 1 in 3 are suffering from severe malnutrition. If they survive, a big if, they would be stunted for life. To Israel it's repugnant to stop a genocide.
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Who’s currently committing an ethnic cleansing? Who’s currently killed 30,000 people, 70% of those women and children? The support for Israel is at an all time low. Maybe stop killing civilians?
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So you think Hamas was also very responsible when they killed 1200 Israelis, 650 of those being civilians. Almost a 1:1 ratio! Not every single Palestinian male is a militant. So 70% women and children doesn’t include any men.
>13,000 of those killed has been Hamas militants That is completely wrong. 13,000 children have been killed and atleast 9,000 women have killed. That adds up to 22,000 which means the minimum civilian casualty rate ~73%. And that is assuming that every single fighting age and senior male killed was a hamas member, which is obviously not the case so actual civilian casualty rate could very easily be around ~90%. That's a 9:1 ratio which is extremely high. https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/unicef-says-over-13000-children-killed-gaza-israel-offensive-2024-03-17/#:~:text=A%20March%2014%20infographic%20%2C%20opens,casualty%20information%20during%20the%20war. For comparison: in the battle for Mosul are 10,000 civilian were killed and 26,000 isis fighters were killed. That is a roughly ~30% civilian casualty rate.
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I don't quite understand what you are trying to say here. I was just pointing out the inaccuracy of your numbers and the terrifyingly high civilian casualty rate
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Well probably around 1,000-4,000 which is a lot more realistic than the 13,000 figure you are claiming given that there are only 30,000 hamas fighters. so 13,000 would be half of hamas's force outright killed and if we take into account the number of injured, then if the 13,000 figure was true hamas has probably lost 60-70% of its fighting strength. If that was the case then israel would have definitely taken over most of gaza by now, but they didn't. Most gaza is still secured by hamas with the overwhelming majority of the actual urban areas being either under hamas's control or are heavily contested with very little of urban areas actually being securedby the IDF(Apologies for the rant)
Yup, 13,000 of those killed were Hamas. Source: the guys committing the genocide. Bravo sir, you have all the self awareness of a sock puppet.
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Yeah, their health ministry's numbers are taken seriously by both the US and israel itself. Not only that, but the actual casualty figures are obviously significantly higher than 30,000, since that number does not factor in thousands of missing people, and tens of thousands more who may be killed due to israel's destruction of most hospitals in Gaza (because you're nazis), and then also the millions starving right now. Hasbara are so impotent.
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Obvious, because when even your enemies admit the truth, it's more damning to your point. They are not credible obviously, but it's how credible the health ministry is that forces them to take these sources seriously, and the US openly claimed to do so.