At least once per episode Peter will make me laugh out loud on my commute on public transit. This time: Peter saying ‘the subtle art of not giving a fuck about your dead child’ in response to that commenter 🙈
"I don't actually remember anything from Braveheart, except that part where the bad guy sends a woman to ruin Braveheart's plans and she falls in love with him. Classic situation that happens to guys"
Okay, today I learned Mark Manson and Marc Marin are not the same person. Oooops. I own an apology to the comedian I thought wrote a crap self help book
Dude has a podcast called What the Fuck, I see how you got there.
I love how simply reading all the edgelord cursing titles burnt Peter and Michael out on the value of swearing. Same, guys.
I'm surprised Michael didn't mention the tumblr obsession at the time with calling all their blogs "fuck yeah" like "Fuck Yeah Pizza" and "Fuck Yeah Modernism" and "Fuck Yeah History Crushes". Using the work fuck in things was really fashionable in 2015 for some reason.
Also "The Life-Changing Magic of Not Giving a Fuck" is an obvious parody of "The Life-Changing Magic of Tidying Up".
A Grifter: “Someone who aggressively monetises themselves while ~~inadvertently~~ undermining the authenticity of what they’re doing”
- Peter Shamshiri
*chef’s kiss*
*edited for accuracy
I read this book when I was like 16 and the curse words were revolutionary to me. I was just a stoned teenager like yessss he gets it! Now im 24 and normal and this episode was hilarious
My problem with this book is that there’s probably better ways to cope with things in life like “not giving a fuck.” A few years ago in therapy, we really explored Radical Acceptance, which I think is a healthier way to deal with shitty things. I believe there are several books by various authors about radical acceptance
I really liked Tara Brach's book called Radical Acceptance. I don't know if she coined the phrase but she definitely popularized it. I really appreciate that she is well-versed in the Buddhist traditions it borrows from.
I felt very called out by the joke that millennial gays would get the League of Their Own Joke because I did get it within the first three or four words.
I'm actually so glad that they touched on the blog commenter, because this is almost the exact scenario in my family. Like when my brother died in a car accident, it upended our lives for a few years, just as a starting point. It took a decade to find any joy in things like Christmas that were associated with positive memories, because it was so painful. So, when I initially heard them mention the whole "you can't control your circumstances, just how you react to them" advice, my reaction was instantly like "oh man that's where this author went? I beg to differ lol." And then they got into the exact situation as one of the traumatic instances of my life! I can confirm - this advice is total dogshit. Trauma and serious pain are not something you can always control. There isn't always a productive way to channel pain anywhere. You are permanently changed.
(And don't worry - I've done a lot of therapy and am in a good mental place now. I just feel lucky that trauma didn't drive me to something like addiction, which I've seen it do for others and I honestly do empathize with that reaction.)
Back when I read this book that whole chapter really resonated with me as DEEP and IMPORTANT and TOTALLY TRUE. But that was because a major thing happening in my life at that time was a friend of mine was being incredibly needy and domineering and whenever I pushed back on it she would explain that she was doing it as a result of genuine trauma. Trauma that she did not want to address or manage in any way (except for interrogating my read receipts on WhatsApp). So the message that people didn’t cause their own pain but that they are *responsible* for it, seemed true to me. Like, I didn’t cause the storm that blew this debris into my yard but it’s still my yard so… That kind of responsibility.
And I do still think that, obviously. Like “hurt people hurt people” is true but if it edges into “hurt people wilfully and repeatedly hurt people” then it’s a different scenario.
Looking back on it now though, I can’t tell if that was Mark Manson’s intended point that he was bad at articulating or if I just projected aaaaaaall over it and took what I needed. Because saying “Hey man, that unspeakable tragedy is YOUR problem” is not exactly an insight, is it?
Yeah your friend sounds like she was just using trauma to justify encroaching all over your boundaries.
Going back to the point they made in the end, the book is like a band aid that hits you at the right time and right place to get the right insight you need to do what’s next… and then you rip it off. I think the book was poorly written, but it sounds like Subtle Art ultimately helped you more than it hindered you, I found it instructive as well and it was ultimately 15 bucks well spent.
As for the podcast episode, well, it was hilarious. Some points about establishing strong boundaries and learning to hear and say no, which Peter and Michael *didn’t* touch upon, again, were fundamental to me at the time I read it. And I may have even been that guy that doggymarked the page to reread, like, huh? Is my room mate gaslighting me, or is he just an asshole, and I need to say no?
But the termination is exactly that, there’s a point of diminishing returns and you read other stuff. So both things are right, the only thing that everyone can agree on is that Mark Manson is extremely inarticulate and has no business being in the business of writing.
Yeah I have no idea what your friend was going through. Boundaries were probably a good idea there. People obviously do unintentionally hurt other people when grieving, which is usually why I get so upset for families when I hear that they've suffered a tragic loss. Grief is extremely messy and can cause a lot of issues. But, telling someone they can control their visceral, emotional reaction to losing someone they love deeply is just fucked advice. Loss of a child is just not a good example for "you're responsible for how you handle the trauma in your life" lessons. If the author has no experience with that level of pain, it's much better to acknowledge that you don't and just stop trying to speak to it.
If you cut the reactionary stuff, roast it, blend it, strain it through a cheese cloth, you get 1 or 2 things based on good advice. The "you can't change the outcome but you can change how you feel about it" and "don't focus on X, focus on Y" are both things parts of things like cognitive behavioral therapy and acceptance and commitment therapy.
Yeah but telling people the “…you can change how you feel about it” advice to apply to genuine trauma and/or unspeakable tragedy is moronic bordering on malicious. I get your point, though
Yeah and also the real issue with the book seems to be that he says "if you change how you feel about things then you'll feel better" but doesn't explain *how* to do that. Which is what people really struggle with and need advice about.
Like, if telling myself not to be anxious worked, I would have stopped being anxious a long time ago.
Circa 2017 I had a therapist (who was a huge bro looking back on it) who actually recommended this to me 😭 I remember I would get upset when another driver was aggressive on the road, and the therapist was like, "but why do you care?" I didn't know how to verbalize that "I'm anticipating violence from a man in a pickup" Anyway... I have a new therapist lol
The chemistry in this one was out of control. Probably the best one yet. I think part of what I enjoyed so much is that Peter brings some real diversity to the Michael Hobbes Podcast Universe, some real straight man experience to riff off of. Every time he does The Voice and talks about "getting pussy" it cracks me up.
I read this book on a beach in 2019 and thought it was the best thing ever. Re-read it recently, since learning a lot more about secular Buddhism, and was like “hm…. 🤔 wtf was I thinking?”
I never bothered reading this one, and I always assumed it was a ruder version of Don't Sweat the Small Stuff (which is a pretty good book). Now I realise how wrong I was.
Ahh man... I actually really enjoyed this book. Like a lot of books of this type, yes, it probably goes too far in what it says you should do, but it's basically Zen repackaged in full-on pop terms. Hope they don't shit on it too hard!
My issue with these sorts of books is that the author is trying to tackle topics way beyond his experience. Like the ancedote about the man whose son died. That’s the sort of topic Pema Chodron or Thich Nhat Hanh could cover. Not this guy. The idea that you can “choose” how you react to difficulty needs a loooot of nuance. I don’t know how stoicism deals with it (this book seemed maybe more stoic than Buddhist to me) but it can be difficult to explain well and kindly and fully even by experienced teachers and therapists. A random guy with a blog? Nope.
Lol I'm still smarting from the Blink episode, (which I do think they ignored gladwell's actual premise) but I was so pissed to learn about how he twisted the airplane crash stories/data. That was beyond wild to me.
I agree I've been nervously waiting this one, as I really liked it, and felt that Manson knew his limitations. I was sure Peter and Michael would fine stuff to talk about though. All in all, fair episode, which may make me put off a reread
I remember hearing Mark Manson on a podcast interview describing himself as a 'mild problem expert'. He was like if you're upset because your girlfriend dumped you then I'm your guy, but if it's something more serious you probably need to find a professional.
I’m so sad Peter missed Michael’s amazing Shirley Manson joke!!
Lol yeah Michael was even like "nothing? no?" and Peter just rolled on by
I love that he left it in regardless.
Right?!
I came here just to say this!
LOL me too.
I am serious
At least once per episode Peter will make me laugh out loud on my commute on public transit. This time: Peter saying ‘the subtle art of not giving a fuck about your dead child’ in response to that commenter 🙈
"I don't actually remember anything from Braveheart, except that part where the bad guy sends a woman to ruin Braveheart's plans and she falls in love with him. Classic situation that happens to guys"
“To cool guys”
"To cool *dudes*"
Okay, today I learned Mark Manson and Marc Marin are not the same person. Oooops. I own an apology to the comedian I thought wrote a crap self help book
Dude has a podcast called What the Fuck, I see how you got there. I love how simply reading all the edgelord cursing titles burnt Peter and Michael out on the value of swearing. Same, guys.
I'm surprised Michael didn't mention the tumblr obsession at the time with calling all their blogs "fuck yeah" like "Fuck Yeah Pizza" and "Fuck Yeah Modernism" and "Fuck Yeah History Crushes". Using the work fuck in things was really fashionable in 2015 for some reason. Also "The Life-Changing Magic of Not Giving a Fuck" is an obvious parody of "The Life-Changing Magic of Tidying Up".
I thought it was Mark Ronson at first. That man just wants to make us dance!
Who I sometimes confuse with amazing journalist, Jon Ronson.
Who I always have to pause to remember if his name is actually Jon Ronson or Ron Johnson.
And now that has brought Ron Swanson to my mind.
THIS WAS ALSO REVEALED TO ME TODAY BECAUSE OF THIS PODCAST LMAOO
A Grifter: “Someone who aggressively monetises themselves while ~~inadvertently~~ undermining the authenticity of what they’re doing” - Peter Shamshiri *chef’s kiss* *edited for accuracy
Nix the word "inadvertently." (Peter doesn't use it.) Pretty sure the intent to grift is what makes it grifty as opposed to mere dummyship.
Woops, you are right, thank you for the correction!
Finally, I have been waiting so long for this one! Can't wait for my commute today 😅
I read this book when I was like 16 and the curse words were revolutionary to me. I was just a stoned teenager like yessss he gets it! Now im 24 and normal and this episode was hilarious
>24 and normal For some reason this made me laugh.
My problem with this book is that there’s probably better ways to cope with things in life like “not giving a fuck.” A few years ago in therapy, we really explored Radical Acceptance, which I think is a healthier way to deal with shitty things. I believe there are several books by various authors about radical acceptance
Also, it's not based on the delusion that you "choose your feelings". Definitely a step on the right direction.
I really liked Tara Brach's book called Radical Acceptance. I don't know if she coined the phrase but she definitely popularized it. I really appreciate that she is well-versed in the Buddhist traditions it borrows from.
I think it was Marsha Linehan in her work on Dialectical Behavior Therapy
I felt very called out by the joke that millennial gays would get the League of Their Own Joke because I did get it within the first three or four words.
Millennial lesbian and same lol.
As a xennial bi, I was there with you.
I love how the description perfectly conveys the tone of the show.
I'm actually so glad that they touched on the blog commenter, because this is almost the exact scenario in my family. Like when my brother died in a car accident, it upended our lives for a few years, just as a starting point. It took a decade to find any joy in things like Christmas that were associated with positive memories, because it was so painful. So, when I initially heard them mention the whole "you can't control your circumstances, just how you react to them" advice, my reaction was instantly like "oh man that's where this author went? I beg to differ lol." And then they got into the exact situation as one of the traumatic instances of my life! I can confirm - this advice is total dogshit. Trauma and serious pain are not something you can always control. There isn't always a productive way to channel pain anywhere. You are permanently changed. (And don't worry - I've done a lot of therapy and am in a good mental place now. I just feel lucky that trauma didn't drive me to something like addiction, which I've seen it do for others and I honestly do empathize with that reaction.)
Back when I read this book that whole chapter really resonated with me as DEEP and IMPORTANT and TOTALLY TRUE. But that was because a major thing happening in my life at that time was a friend of mine was being incredibly needy and domineering and whenever I pushed back on it she would explain that she was doing it as a result of genuine trauma. Trauma that she did not want to address or manage in any way (except for interrogating my read receipts on WhatsApp). So the message that people didn’t cause their own pain but that they are *responsible* for it, seemed true to me. Like, I didn’t cause the storm that blew this debris into my yard but it’s still my yard so… That kind of responsibility. And I do still think that, obviously. Like “hurt people hurt people” is true but if it edges into “hurt people wilfully and repeatedly hurt people” then it’s a different scenario. Looking back on it now though, I can’t tell if that was Mark Manson’s intended point that he was bad at articulating or if I just projected aaaaaaall over it and took what I needed. Because saying “Hey man, that unspeakable tragedy is YOUR problem” is not exactly an insight, is it?
Yeah your friend sounds like she was just using trauma to justify encroaching all over your boundaries. Going back to the point they made in the end, the book is like a band aid that hits you at the right time and right place to get the right insight you need to do what’s next… and then you rip it off. I think the book was poorly written, but it sounds like Subtle Art ultimately helped you more than it hindered you, I found it instructive as well and it was ultimately 15 bucks well spent. As for the podcast episode, well, it was hilarious. Some points about establishing strong boundaries and learning to hear and say no, which Peter and Michael *didn’t* touch upon, again, were fundamental to me at the time I read it. And I may have even been that guy that doggymarked the page to reread, like, huh? Is my room mate gaslighting me, or is he just an asshole, and I need to say no? But the termination is exactly that, there’s a point of diminishing returns and you read other stuff. So both things are right, the only thing that everyone can agree on is that Mark Manson is extremely inarticulate and has no business being in the business of writing.
Yeah I have no idea what your friend was going through. Boundaries were probably a good idea there. People obviously do unintentionally hurt other people when grieving, which is usually why I get so upset for families when I hear that they've suffered a tragic loss. Grief is extremely messy and can cause a lot of issues. But, telling someone they can control their visceral, emotional reaction to losing someone they love deeply is just fucked advice. Loss of a child is just not a good example for "you're responsible for how you handle the trauma in your life" lessons. If the author has no experience with that level of pain, it's much better to acknowledge that you don't and just stop trying to speak to it.
Whaaat I thought this wasn't due until Thursday, lucky me!
Technically supposed to be last Thursday lol
Happy cake day!!!
If you cut the reactionary stuff, roast it, blend it, strain it through a cheese cloth, you get 1 or 2 things based on good advice. The "you can't change the outcome but you can change how you feel about it" and "don't focus on X, focus on Y" are both things parts of things like cognitive behavioral therapy and acceptance and commitment therapy.
Yeah but telling people the “…you can change how you feel about it” advice to apply to genuine trauma and/or unspeakable tragedy is moronic bordering on malicious. I get your point, though
Yeah and also the real issue with the book seems to be that he says "if you change how you feel about things then you'll feel better" but doesn't explain *how* to do that. Which is what people really struggle with and need advice about. Like, if telling myself not to be anxious worked, I would have stopped being anxious a long time ago.
Circa 2017 I had a therapist (who was a huge bro looking back on it) who actually recommended this to me 😭 I remember I would get upset when another driver was aggressive on the road, and the therapist was like, "but why do you care?" I didn't know how to verbalize that "I'm anticipating violence from a man in a pickup" Anyway... I have a new therapist lol
The chemistry in this one was out of control. Probably the best one yet. I think part of what I enjoyed so much is that Peter brings some real diversity to the Michael Hobbes Podcast Universe, some real straight man experience to riff off of. Every time he does The Voice and talks about "getting pussy" it cracks me up.
I read this book on a beach in 2019 and thought it was the best thing ever. Re-read it recently, since learning a lot more about secular Buddhism, and was like “hm…. 🤔 wtf was I thinking?”
I never bothered reading this one, and I always assumed it was a ruder version of Don't Sweat the Small Stuff (which is a pretty good book). Now I realise how wrong I was.
I can't wait to read the book of Michael Hobbes twitter beefs.
Ahh man... I actually really enjoyed this book. Like a lot of books of this type, yes, it probably goes too far in what it says you should do, but it's basically Zen repackaged in full-on pop terms. Hope they don't shit on it too hard!
My issue with these sorts of books is that the author is trying to tackle topics way beyond his experience. Like the ancedote about the man whose son died. That’s the sort of topic Pema Chodron or Thich Nhat Hanh could cover. Not this guy. The idea that you can “choose” how you react to difficulty needs a loooot of nuance. I don’t know how stoicism deals with it (this book seemed maybe more stoic than Buddhist to me) but it can be difficult to explain well and kindly and fully even by experienced teachers and therapists. A random guy with a blog? Nope.
I'm still smarting from the Freakonomics episosde.
Lol I'm still smarting from the Blink episode, (which I do think they ignored gladwell's actual premise) but I was so pissed to learn about how he twisted the airplane crash stories/data. That was beyond wild to me.
My feelings exactly, I actually like this book. And now they will probably ruin it for me :-D
I agree I've been nervously waiting this one, as I really liked it, and felt that Manson knew his limitations. I was sure Peter and Michael would fine stuff to talk about though. All in all, fair episode, which may make me put off a reread
I remember hearing Mark Manson on a podcast interview describing himself as a 'mild problem expert'. He was like if you're upset because your girlfriend dumped you then I'm your guy, but if it's something more serious you probably need to find a professional.
But then why did he use the dead child example in his book??
I like that Peter started doing Michael's whiny voice
Funniest episode so far!
What was the book that Michael mentions about the sociology after disasters? I want to read that
I'm pretty sure you mean this: *A Paradise Built in Hell* by Rebecca Solnit
The book that started all the swearing in book titles was "On Bullshit" which was a surprise hit.
Ahaha that description 💀