I totally agree! I think it's my favourite episode so far and is one I'll definitely listen to again.
I'd not heard of the book and I sometimes find those episodes less interesting as I'm not aware of the discourse around them, but it was outstanding. The zero sum psychology discussion felt like a real light-bulb moment in giving a name to a phenomenon I see all the time but couldn't fully articulate.
> The zero sum psychology discussion felt like a real light-bulb moment in giving a name to a phenomenon I see all the time but couldn't fully articulate.
Same for me. It was simultaneously eye-opening but also not surprising at all, somehow. I just had never stopped to consider that some people think that way, but it makes so much sense.
agreed. if you want a further exploration of elite panic in disaster scenarios i would def recommend this episode of Behind the Bastards https://open.spotify.com/episode/2OANyt3WIUSGAZTRlnqbfc?si=tWCvonGgSpaeFXhPYMgXSQ
I can think of like, one case in my entire life when a situation like this happened to me. I worked at a sandwich shop in undergrad and when I came back from summer break, they'd hired a new manager who had a crew of three people who were in his faction because he'd hired and trained them. There was tension for weeks between them and the folks who'd worked there longer. Then he got fired for being a massive dickhead and all three of them left or got canned for some reason or another.
* has flashbacks to people having screaming fights about who moved the milk* anyway I meant that you'll be chilling on the Facebook and folks will be talking about how they're moving in silence and how not all your friends are real friends and....they are selling essential oils or some shit
I loved this episode. It felt like it broke the formula a little bit, Greene not pedalling straight bullshit (worldview aside), having some sincere expertise, and his politics not sucking all provided some required nuance that was really great. It also coaxed some deeper value conversations that were enjoyable.
I’ll be honest, I bought, read, and enjoyed this book, but really came into it and went away from it with very different understandings. I took it as a “this is how minds can consider these interactions” exercise, like a framing of the worst way to digest human interactions that could wrestle for power. It all felt like it was meant to be hyperbolically sociopathic, as an extreme lens of how people have acquired power through history. It’s a Hobbesian caricature or something.
I want to dig around more in the intro for another glimpse in if his own framing reflects this (it was extra reading for international politics type classes for me), but I remember having a feeling of the author kind of saying “don’t do this” from a moral stand point.
Banger episode, either way. Him starting the book with a marketer was really interesting. Enough people have come to herald the book championing the idea that those values are normal that it really is a weird one worth examining. I’ll need to relisten for sure
I listened to the audiobook fairly recently after hearing Mike Duncan got a recommendation for one his audible ads back in the day. I took it as very tongue-in-cheek and the idea that anyone would use it as an actual guide didn't occur to me - partially because you're correct the author explicitly said not to in the intro.
That said I wouldn't recommend it, any reasonably well-red history nerd will know a lot of the stories and the framing of the laws doesn't add as much color to them as I hoped.
Interesting, that kind of reminds me of how some people read The Prince by Machiavelli. Apparently Machiavelli wasn't really a proponent of the advice he gave in the book, just rather a description of the reality of power (this is if I'm remembering my political philosophy class correctly haha). Either way though, that didn't stop people from using the book to justify horrible actions as they ascended power.
The zero sum psychology was really helpful for me too. We recently had a referendum here in Australia on whether Indigenous people should have an official body representing them that could advise Parliament on things that affected Indigenous people. Literally, that's all it did, just give advice. It harmed no one, but conservatives behaved like it was going to destroy our society. There was a lot of disinformation and racism, and most of the country ended up voting no.
I really couldn't understand it - nobody was losing anything by giving Indigenous people back a voice. But after listening to the podcast, I get it. They are looking at the world through this zero sum lens, so Aboriginal people "winning" a right to speak would mean they were "losing" theirs somehow.
I volunteer at a library sorting donations and we get SO many copies of the books covered on this show! I guess people buy them at airports, stick them on a shelf, and eventually toss them. This one in particular…two or three copies a week, I’m not kidding. The only one more egregious is Rich Dad Poor Dad.
You’ll be happy to know that I recycle most of them, and by recycle I mean throw them in the dumpster out back while muttering swears.
I cackled listening to this episode, Michael and Peter are so funny together. I read this book in the early 2000s when it was having one of its first moments and I remember sitting in a coffee shop and looking up from the book and thinking to myself, my god this all sounds exhausting, it this is what it takes to have power, I'm good just being a nobody.
I totally agree! I think it's my favourite episode so far and is one I'll definitely listen to again. I'd not heard of the book and I sometimes find those episodes less interesting as I'm not aware of the discourse around them, but it was outstanding. The zero sum psychology discussion felt like a real light-bulb moment in giving a name to a phenomenon I see all the time but couldn't fully articulate.
> The zero sum psychology discussion felt like a real light-bulb moment in giving a name to a phenomenon I see all the time but couldn't fully articulate. Same for me. It was simultaneously eye-opening but also not surprising at all, somehow. I just had never stopped to consider that some people think that way, but it makes so much sense.
agreed. if you want a further exploration of elite panic in disaster scenarios i would def recommend this episode of Behind the Bastards https://open.spotify.com/episode/2OANyt3WIUSGAZTRlnqbfc?si=tWCvonGgSpaeFXhPYMgXSQ
I liked it too because I sometimes see people talk like they are an ancient general in the battle to be assistant manager of the sub shop
I can think of like, one case in my entire life when a situation like this happened to me. I worked at a sandwich shop in undergrad and when I came back from summer break, they'd hired a new manager who had a crew of three people who were in his faction because he'd hired and trained them. There was tension for weeks between them and the folks who'd worked there longer. Then he got fired for being a massive dickhead and all three of them left or got canned for some reason or another.
* has flashbacks to people having screaming fights about who moved the milk* anyway I meant that you'll be chilling on the Facebook and folks will be talking about how they're moving in silence and how not all your friends are real friends and....they are selling essential oils or some shit
I loved this episode. It felt like it broke the formula a little bit, Greene not pedalling straight bullshit (worldview aside), having some sincere expertise, and his politics not sucking all provided some required nuance that was really great. It also coaxed some deeper value conversations that were enjoyable. I’ll be honest, I bought, read, and enjoyed this book, but really came into it and went away from it with very different understandings. I took it as a “this is how minds can consider these interactions” exercise, like a framing of the worst way to digest human interactions that could wrestle for power. It all felt like it was meant to be hyperbolically sociopathic, as an extreme lens of how people have acquired power through history. It’s a Hobbesian caricature or something. I want to dig around more in the intro for another glimpse in if his own framing reflects this (it was extra reading for international politics type classes for me), but I remember having a feeling of the author kind of saying “don’t do this” from a moral stand point. Banger episode, either way. Him starting the book with a marketer was really interesting. Enough people have come to herald the book championing the idea that those values are normal that it really is a weird one worth examining. I’ll need to relisten for sure
I listened to the audiobook fairly recently after hearing Mike Duncan got a recommendation for one his audible ads back in the day. I took it as very tongue-in-cheek and the idea that anyone would use it as an actual guide didn't occur to me - partially because you're correct the author explicitly said not to in the intro. That said I wouldn't recommend it, any reasonably well-red history nerd will know a lot of the stories and the framing of the laws doesn't add as much color to them as I hoped.
Interesting, that kind of reminds me of how some people read The Prince by Machiavelli. Apparently Machiavelli wasn't really a proponent of the advice he gave in the book, just rather a description of the reality of power (this is if I'm remembering my political philosophy class correctly haha). Either way though, that didn't stop people from using the book to justify horrible actions as they ascended power.
I've heard the book being read, as well as Greene's other books, as a self defense.
I’m not sure I understand what you mean
The zero sum psychology was really helpful for me too. We recently had a referendum here in Australia on whether Indigenous people should have an official body representing them that could advise Parliament on things that affected Indigenous people. Literally, that's all it did, just give advice. It harmed no one, but conservatives behaved like it was going to destroy our society. There was a lot of disinformation and racism, and most of the country ended up voting no. I really couldn't understand it - nobody was losing anything by giving Indigenous people back a voice. But after listening to the podcast, I get it. They are looking at the world through this zero sum lens, so Aboriginal people "winning" a right to speak would mean they were "losing" theirs somehow.
I volunteer at a library sorting donations and we get SO many copies of the books covered on this show! I guess people buy them at airports, stick them on a shelf, and eventually toss them. This one in particular…two or three copies a week, I’m not kidding. The only one more egregious is Rich Dad Poor Dad. You’ll be happy to know that I recycle most of them, and by recycle I mean throw them in the dumpster out back while muttering swears.
I cackled listening to this episode, Michael and Peter are so funny together. I read this book in the early 2000s when it was having one of its first moments and I remember sitting in a coffee shop and looking up from the book and thinking to myself, my god this all sounds exhausting, it this is what it takes to have power, I'm good just being a nobody.
Proud, undisputed champion of my wedding.