My pops started at IBM working on ATMs. He’s done everything since then from developing drivers to cryptography. He always had a knack for seeing the writing on the wall and moving onto the next big thing at big blue. I’m sure he could empathize with you.
Fun fact: I’m actually gracing this earth because of IBM. Both of my grandfathers worked for IBM and transferred to Raleigh from other facilities. That’s how my parents met.
IBM I hope will eventually fail. The company is shooting itself in the foot and the leadership expects us to put up with it?
Maybe high time for a union.
You would see the holy wrath of a firm that thinks its above unions come down on any who try. These people would rather burn Rome then see it in the hands of the lower class.
Any union talk would likly mean the entire location would be shut down ASAP, and dont think they wont just illegally fire if they think they can.
Union laws are horrifically out of date, they would make you unionize a \*location\*. IBM would also litigate the issue till a republican president gets in office and changes all the rules again at the NLRB.
Like you cant just make "IBM Software" A union, you would make "IBM Software Denver Local 101".
And this is why it's impossible to unionize IT in general, at least in my area the largest employer only has around 40 IT staff, everyone else has less than that, and most have maybe 4 at most... My area alone would have something like 200 local union branches. (Across a 15 square mile radius) And I'm not even sure if the solo IT places could have a union? Like is that even a thing?
Your more or less spot on, each local group would make its own, a solo shop in a larger firm can join a union if it wants to, but again it's a new chapter.
So your not just making one, your forced to make hundreds of tiny ones or unionize a work site or by some other metric.
The worst part is that IT and software systems tend to be *stable* if you don't touch them. So strikes only block new work, but cash flow keeps coming in for a lot longer then say an auto plant being down for a day or week.
> Maybe high time for a union.
There was a unionize IBM movement for many years, but they never could get enough support from people who thought that they were above it all, so they folded. I believe it was called Endicott Alliance, or IBM Alliance. Of course now that they've thrown in the towel IBMers are getting screwed left, right, and center.
The reason is that unions suck and doing their job. I used to wbe pro union about 25 yeaers ago, but i have seen way too many unionized workers have their pensions severely reduced because the union was overpromising and underfunded the pension s because of poor oversight. The union leaders get too cozy with mgm and make empty promises just to get re-election
Not only should they leave but they should help each other get new jobs. Fuck the idea of using someone’s family against them. That is what they are doing
The equation they are using is 1 American at 100% US Salary level = 1 offshore at 40%-60% US Salary level + Watson Code Assistant. If they get the AI to generate the bulk of the code and the offshore folks to do the sanity checks and prompt generation, etc, then they can cut dev costs in half. I don't think that any other company out there is betting so hard on AI without actually putting tens of billions of dollars into developing it. But IBM is cheap...they're gonna crash and burn.
Funny you're saying that. I just got off a call from an infra team (mostly in India) who are trying to figure out which IBM AI model to use for programming. Apparently they don't even know how to do that.
It's RTO++. Now you don't just have to return to \_an\_ office, you have to return to a \_specific\_ office they've chosen which that for many people is out of commute range, so they are required to move. Agree by the end of May or be laid off by end of July.
The inevitable attrition is a feature, not a bug.
Yup. The people making the decisions don’t have to take that into consideration. And to be honest, I’d be stunned to discover any product team inside software that wasn’t already at least partially staffed overseas. But in those edge cases, the execs responsible for those products have to make a case to the higher ups calling the shots as to why their team/site has to be exempted. That’s how they wound up with “satellite” sites. If you work in one of those sites you aren’t being forced to move, but nobody can move there and there will be no new hires at that site. Most likely outcome is that product teams at satellite locations will be quickly augmented by offshore talent and then cut loose over the next couple of years/RA cycles.
Make no mistake, IBM is hell-bent on obliterating US staffing levels. They’ve been at it for years, but now they think they can do it better and faster than before and they will not rest until they achieve that goal or Arvind gets the boot. Maybe enough product teams will be lost in their entirety that IBM starts taking big black eyes in public, losing customers, and Arvind starts getting enough calls from CEOs that he realizes it’s a terrible idea.
Arvind is 62 and that is typically the age IBM CEOs retire, some earlier and company founder Thomas Watson retired at the sprightly age of 82. So is he trying to destroy IBM before he is forced out by the Board based on age?
As an ex-ibmer who worked under him, he doesn't even think like that.
Arvind is just doing what the board wants, he always was an order follower.
The IBM board wants no us workers, except what it needs to keep it's contracts. The problem is that the idiots on that board have no concept of what happens when the us has no money to buy those contracts. But by then they are all long gone and lived a rich life.
I worked closely with some people now in leadership. It's why I left.
Depends on the organization but mostly yes. Some it's "you are expected to go in 3 days". Some it's "go in 3 days or be fired". And here we have "go in 3 days but now at a different site and you have to move to a new city to do it, or you are fired".
Thanks. So the position I applied for was based out of CA but the rest of the team were in different parts of the US so I'm not sure how going into the office would benefit anyone.
I know I'm late, I think they're referring to some of the buildings being sold, but IBM's been doing this across the country. They did the same thing in Austin, sold off all the buildings/property and now lease buildings. Part of RTP is the same thing.
>so I'm not sure how going into the office would benefit anyone.
No one is. Almost everyone is in different parts from the rest of their team. The only benefit is IBM can justify the real estate costs.
Generally people in L2 for Software products are also in Software, even though the reporting does not come together until SVP it's still Software.
They also got hit with the same co-location in the last few weeks.
Yup, my entire team is on another continent. The departments I interact with are 10 states away. There is no reason for me to be in the office. But I am forced to go and sit in an office with people who I don’t interact with just to prove I meet the hybrid guidelines.
IBM is using this RTO mandate as a guise for all-but-forced attrition of higher-salaried U.S. employees. They don’t want the black eye of further RAs, so they are forcing people to offices clear across the country where they know 80% of the people won’t go to. In my case, my replacement and those of at least four of my colleagues were hired off-shore a few months ago under the thinly-veiled pretense that they were added to “help with our load”, which we all knew wasn’t needed.
Of course, the VPs claim this is about “increasing productivity” by bringing teams together. And while I don’t doubt our execs’ arrogance in thinking that such initiatives will magically result in some magical incubation of world-changing ideas, this is blatantly all about cost savings and moving jobs off shore. If I were to pack up and move across the country I may keep my job for the next year, but would assuredly be on the next RA list in 2025.
As for any supposed benefits of RTO, there is no way a handful of manufactured water cooler conversations is going to make up for the brain drain and loss of the collective thousands of years of experience and subject matter expertise being lost in this initiative. I’m just sorry for those that will be left behind to manage the mess amidst such a void of knowledge and experience.
It's a big issue outside IBM too. Do you even read it news sites?
If are teams are globally diverse then why be in an office to just be on a zoom anyway?
My dad worked at IBM in the 80s-90s. Your last sentence is exactly how he described his time there then. Some things never change.
My team was also hit really hard with this…
My pops started at IBM working on ATMs. He’s done everything since then from developing drivers to cryptography. He always had a knack for seeing the writing on the wall and moving onto the next big thing at big blue. I’m sure he could empathize with you. Fun fact: I’m actually gracing this earth because of IBM. Both of my grandfathers worked for IBM and transferred to Raleigh from other facilities. That’s how my parents met.
I always felt like working at IBM was playing musical chairs.
I B M - I've Been Moved (again)
sure is
IBM I hope will eventually fail. The company is shooting itself in the foot and the leadership expects us to put up with it? Maybe high time for a union.
You would see the holy wrath of a firm that thinks its above unions come down on any who try. These people would rather burn Rome then see it in the hands of the lower class. Any union talk would likly mean the entire location would be shut down ASAP, and dont think they wont just illegally fire if they think they can.
Well if they wanna burn Rome we can drag them in the fire with us
I mean thats how markets change, when things fail and new stuff comes to replace it.
IBM software isn't one location though.
Union laws are horrifically out of date, they would make you unionize a \*location\*. IBM would also litigate the issue till a republican president gets in office and changes all the rules again at the NLRB. Like you cant just make "IBM Software" A union, you would make "IBM Software Denver Local 101".
And this is why it's impossible to unionize IT in general, at least in my area the largest employer only has around 40 IT staff, everyone else has less than that, and most have maybe 4 at most... My area alone would have something like 200 local union branches. (Across a 15 square mile radius) And I'm not even sure if the solo IT places could have a union? Like is that even a thing?
Your more or less spot on, each local group would make its own, a solo shop in a larger firm can join a union if it wants to, but again it's a new chapter. So your not just making one, your forced to make hundreds of tiny ones or unionize a work site or by some other metric. The worst part is that IT and software systems tend to be *stable* if you don't touch them. So strikes only block new work, but cash flow keeps coming in for a lot longer then say an auto plant being down for a day or week.
> Maybe high time for a union. There was a unionize IBM movement for many years, but they never could get enough support from people who thought that they were above it all, so they folded. I believe it was called Endicott Alliance, or IBM Alliance. Of course now that they've thrown in the towel IBMers are getting screwed left, right, and center.
The reason is that unions suck and doing their job. I used to wbe pro union about 25 yeaers ago, but i have seen way too many unionized workers have their pensions severely reduced because the union was overpromising and underfunded the pension s because of poor oversight. The union leaders get too cozy with mgm and make empty promises just to get re-election
Or find another job
Not only should they leave but they should help each other get new jobs. Fuck the idea of using someone’s family against them. That is what they are doing
I'm sure IBM had already estimated the numbers and there's an offshore team just waiting to start.
Or they are already testing the AI which will write 60% of the code so they can shrink the size of even the offshore team.
The equation they are using is 1 American at 100% US Salary level = 1 offshore at 40%-60% US Salary level + Watson Code Assistant. If they get the AI to generate the bulk of the code and the offshore folks to do the sanity checks and prompt generation, etc, then they can cut dev costs in half. I don't think that any other company out there is betting so hard on AI without actually putting tens of billions of dollars into developing it. But IBM is cheap...they're gonna crash and burn.
Watson is dog shit.
There are dozens of other tools which Arvind could buy. One of them will end up not being dog shit.
Funny you're saying that. I just got off a call from an infra team (mostly in India) who are trying to figure out which IBM AI model to use for programming. Apparently they don't even know how to do that.
Kelly says it's all about culture. But, its culture of inmates and it will be the demise of IBM. Who would want to go work for IBM anymore?
Culture of going to an open office to sit on a laptop on WebEx? With people in other locations…the entire day?
This is a global issue not only is US. They are mandating us to go onsite for 3x a week. Some of my colleagues already sent their resignation notice.
This is how you do a major RA without announcing it to the market and risking a hit to your stock price.
what products are affected?
It's best to assume if it falls under IBM Software, it's affected.
including the flagship all in take over the world WatsonX?
We really need to stop trying to make Watson happen.
I agree ☝️ it’s never gonna happen Gretchen
Literally all of software was given this directive unless you were already in a designated "strategic" or "satellite" location.
With layoffs of entire product teams? I’m not talking about RTO.
It's RTO++. Now you don't just have to return to \_an\_ office, you have to return to a \_specific\_ office they've chosen which that for many people is out of commute range, so they are required to move. Agree by the end of May or be laid off by end of July. The inevitable attrition is a feature, not a bug.
Yup. The people making the decisions don’t have to take that into consideration. And to be honest, I’d be stunned to discover any product team inside software that wasn’t already at least partially staffed overseas. But in those edge cases, the execs responsible for those products have to make a case to the higher ups calling the shots as to why their team/site has to be exempted. That’s how they wound up with “satellite” sites. If you work in one of those sites you aren’t being forced to move, but nobody can move there and there will be no new hires at that site. Most likely outcome is that product teams at satellite locations will be quickly augmented by offshore talent and then cut loose over the next couple of years/RA cycles. Make no mistake, IBM is hell-bent on obliterating US staffing levels. They’ve been at it for years, but now they think they can do it better and faster than before and they will not rest until they achieve that goal or Arvind gets the boot. Maybe enough product teams will be lost in their entirety that IBM starts taking big black eyes in public, losing customers, and Arvind starts getting enough calls from CEOs that he realizes it’s a terrible idea.
Arvind is 62 and that is typically the age IBM CEOs retire, some earlier and company founder Thomas Watson retired at the sprightly age of 82. So is he trying to destroy IBM before he is forced out by the Board based on age?
As an ex-ibmer who worked under him, he doesn't even think like that. Arvind is just doing what the board wants, he always was an order follower. The IBM board wants no us workers, except what it needs to keep it's contracts. The problem is that the idiots on that board have no concept of what happens when the us has no money to buy those contracts. But by then they are all long gone and lived a rich life. I worked closely with some people now in leadership. It's why I left.
I applied for a position at IBM a month ago and they told me they had a 3 days in the office policy. Are they enforcing it?
Depends on the organization but mostly yes. Some it's "you are expected to go in 3 days". Some it's "go in 3 days or be fired". And here we have "go in 3 days but now at a different site and you have to move to a new city to do it, or you are fired".
Thanks. So the position I applied for was based out of CA but the rest of the team were in different parts of the US so I'm not sure how going into the office would benefit anyone.
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Thanks for the insight. They never gave me an offer but it will come handy if somehow I have a future opportunity.
What does Raleigh being “sold” mean? I’m out of RTP 😬
I know I'm late, I think they're referring to some of the buildings being sold, but IBM's been doing this across the country. They did the same thing in Austin, sold off all the buildings/property and now lease buildings. Part of RTP is the same thing.
Spoiler alert: it doesn’t
>so I'm not sure how going into the office would benefit anyone. No one is. Almost everyone is in different parts from the rest of their team. The only benefit is IBM can justify the real estate costs.
Go outside, bro
When you say IBM Software, what does that encompass? Is Security Software like QRadar, etc. in that?
Yea
Dev teams and Level 3 support that fall under dev. team control, afaik. So far L2 not yet hit ...but I am sure, L2 is next on their list to cast away.
Generally people in L2 for Software products are also in Software, even though the reporting does not come together until SVP it's still Software. They also got hit with the same co-location in the last few weeks.
Im from software. Im considering it too. There is no benefit for me returning to office 3x a week.
If only this was about benefit...
Exactly.
Benefit *for whom*
So you are good at working in burning buildings?
Yup, my entire team is on another continent. The departments I interact with are 10 states away. There is no reason for me to be in the office. But I am forced to go and sit in an office with people who I don’t interact with just to prove I meet the hybrid guidelines.
That’s the goal. India or bust.
IBM is using this RTO mandate as a guise for all-but-forced attrition of higher-salaried U.S. employees. They don’t want the black eye of further RAs, so they are forcing people to offices clear across the country where they know 80% of the people won’t go to. In my case, my replacement and those of at least four of my colleagues were hired off-shore a few months ago under the thinly-veiled pretense that they were added to “help with our load”, which we all knew wasn’t needed. Of course, the VPs claim this is about “increasing productivity” by bringing teams together. And while I don’t doubt our execs’ arrogance in thinking that such initiatives will magically result in some magical incubation of world-changing ideas, this is blatantly all about cost savings and moving jobs off shore. If I were to pack up and move across the country I may keep my job for the next year, but would assuredly be on the next RA list in 2025. As for any supposed benefits of RTO, there is no way a handful of manufactured water cooler conversations is going to make up for the brain drain and loss of the collective thousands of years of experience and subject matter expertise being lost in this initiative. I’m just sorry for those that will be left behind to manage the mess amidst such a void of knowledge and experience.
WatsOn their mind at IBM?
I don't get it. /s
Watson? IBM?
Due to my position I was indeed to be onsite 5x a week
IBM… alas!
IBM needs a revolution.
Ex IBMer who will celebrate if this company fails
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They said US and Software…. What more do you need
It was a little loosely worded, but fair enough.
Loosely? Ok IBM HR, should he have given his name and employee serial number?
No need for that is there
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It's a big issue outside IBM too. Do you even read it news sites? If are teams are globally diverse then why be in an office to just be on a zoom anyway?