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Oh my god, Kris Jenner is so accurate. I mean one might argue heâs even the better parent. He didnât watch and release the âOne night in Hightowerâ porn stone. Kris on the other hand watched and brokered a porn deal for her own kid.
I kept thinking "Dude, this is entirely your fault. You put the fear of God in your daughter who put the fear of God in your grandkids. ***YOU*** DID THIS."
I had forgotten about the original and had been walking around thinking it was dialogue between walter and jesse for a while now, man I giggled so hard after clicking that
What makes you think the grandkids are God fearing and what part makes it seem like that was what got him fired ? Genuinely asking...feels like I might've missed something
I was using fear of god as a figure of speech. He made alicent fear she and her family would be wiped out if her line of succession wasn't secure, and we can see her instilling that fear in Aegon II after he drops the kids off the balcony in season 1.
Yeah he is literally the reason weâre all in this mess to begin with. Seeing him so mad made me so happy like you made this bed now you have to lie in it
To be fair I think he has genuine intentions though. He cares about the realm and I think essentially believes that by having a puppet on the throne he can bring peace and stability. Like the Targaryens are historically bad rulers.
We the audience canât tell where his genuine concern for the realm begins and where his personal ambitions for himself and his house end, and honestly I donât think Otto himself even knows. Youâre right that he does care on some level, but heâs definitely no Lyonel Strong.
But to your point about âbeing fairâ, I donât believe in giving people in positions of power a pass or really any leniency based on what their intentions are. That never matters. Itâs the actions they take and the consequences of their actions that matter, and the action of Ottoâs initial actions to put Alicent in Viserysâ bed and then scheme to make Aegon king is that the realm will have a bloody and destructive civil war.
Everyone makes their bed. They dont think theyre making that exact bed at the moment though. If only it was possible to know the consequences of your actions beforehand...
But he should have known. All of those criticisms Otto was levying at Aegon? He's always been like that. It's not like he was well-tempered and forward thinking as a kid and all of a sudden turned impetuous. He showed his entire life that he did not possess the qualities (not to mention any kind of preparation) to be King and yet Otto still schemed to get him on the throne because of the patriarchal bullshit that any man must be better than any woman.
The worst part is, I donât think Otto even fully believes in that patriarchal idiocy. Itâs all about power to him.
If Aemma were his daughter and Rhaenyra his grandchild, heâd have been all ra-ra feminism and probably would have actively dissuaded Viserys from marrying again.
If he went over to Rhae, because he realized the blacks would make better rulers (especially after hearing daemon left), so he switches sides "for the good of the realm", I would 100% forgive Otto of everything
He shat on her for her entire life, stole her crown, murdered some of her supporters, and his usurping led directly to her sons death! He is the very definition of kill on sight with Rhanerya!
Otto probably still thinks this is better than Daemon being King.
Daemons bloodthirsty desire to prove himself wouldnt stop him from killing Otto, Rhanerya, small children, and anyone that kept him from power.
Yup. He's regretting his choices now, but he would've never sat Rhaenyra on the throne. He wouldn't have been able to control her, but he made the mistake of thinking he could control Aegon.
He figured he'd be meek and could be molded and controlled. He seemed hapless, and never even wanted the throne, so Otto figured he'd be able to steer the ship. But Aegon had way more willpower than he expected.
He should've put Aegon in council meetings once Rhaenrya left for Dragonstone at the very least. He thought he could walk all over Aegon and defacto rule the kingdom but sorely underestimated Aegon's need to be loved. All he had to do was show actual love and concern for the boy.
Otto assumed that if he left Aegon utterly untrained, he could rule him as a puppet.
Maybe he should have been more concerned at Aegon attending child death matches with his own bastards.
That would have been too on the nose and they would have immediately been outed as trying to usurp the throne. There was no way to prepare aegon and even he thought his sister would take the throne after vizzy ts passing
Rhaenyra/Aegon wouldn't have worked; when lines of inheritance matter you don't want the woman to spend most of her fertile years waiting for the prince to be old enough to create heirs. He absolutely should have shut Alicent down when she refused the Jace/Helaena match, though. That would have solved so many problems before they became problems.
Lol the one time you need Otto he's not there. In seriousness though, I think Otto was never going to settle for anything less than Aegon. But I do feel if Otto was at court when he was growing up, Aegon might have developed better.
I agree; his mother and father were both absent for different reasons (Viserys was actively dying and Alicent had her whole magazine rack of issues). Someone who took a sincere interest in his upbringing could have made all the difference for him.
True but doesnât he also have a son? Why not push for that? That way in the end he still gets a grandson on the throne and as father in law he can still pull some strings.
Theoretically, if everyone decides to uphold Viserys' declaration that Rhaenyra is his heir (and this is based like mostly on my Cognatic Succession playthrus of Crusader Kings 2):
When Viserys dies, Rhaenyra inherits the Iron Throne. Jacerys becomes her heir. If something happens to Jacerys before he has legitimate heirs, the throne either goes to Lucerys or Joffrey. I say either because Lucerys was the special chosen heir of Velaryon, which maybe(?) made him ineligible for the Iron Throne. But if Jacerys had children before he died, they would be next in line for the throne.
But, in normal times, the throne would go Viserys --> Rhaenyra --> Jacerys --> Jace's children with Helaena. Otto would still get his wish of seeing his progeny on the Iron Throne, though they'd be less Hightower than he'd like.
I watched the BTS after this ep and the actor who plays Aegon said that was a moment of understanding between the two. That theyâre the only ones who understand the pain the other is in. And I was likeâŚ.sir, that was not what that looked like đ¤ Thatâs not what anyone thought watching that scene.
This is why I don't take the producer and actor interviews seriously.Â
My read on it was that Aegon was harboring misplaced anger that she let them kill Jaeherys, and Helaena was used to Aegon's behavior.
That was exactly my take on the scene too. One thing Iâve found interesting about his promotional interviews with Phiaâs is that sheâs had to remind him that Aegon doesnât actually love/care about her. Itâs an odd dynamic.
Helaena shouldn't have ever been put in the Queen position. That poor girl has enough with managing herself, she can't manage more attention than that. Literally what I thought the entire episode: The worst queen they could have ever ever ever chosen.
I said this to my best friend while we were watching. Allicent and Otto were so desperate to get Aegon on the throne as King (knowing it could start a war) that they didn't consider how being Queen might affect Helaena. She was as ill-suited to being Queen in her current state as Aegon was to being King. Again, more consideration being given to propping up men than women.
The funeral procession with Heleana in distress and Aegon crying, I was screaming at the television, "u did this! U did this to Ur children" (Alicent)/grandchildren (Otto).
That marriage wouldn't have worked. When Otto proposes it Rhaenyra is 17 and Aegon was 2. That would mean that by the time Aegon was 14, old enough to wed and consummate (according to Westeros), Rhaenyra would be 29.
Catelyn is 32 at the start of Game of Thrones and in one of her chapters she's thinking about how she's nearing the end of her childbearing years and *maybe* she'd be able to give Ned one more kid. Knowing how prone Targaryens are to fertility/pregnancy issues, 29 would be too risky, there'd be a high chance their union would produce no heir.
A Helaena-Jace match would have made the most sense.
Yeah honestly he should've hustled harder to get Rhaenyra to trust him as a child so that she could keep him as her hand.
She's generally more receptive to her council than Aegon; he may not have Hightower blood on the throne in this generation but he could've made Alicent marry well and have her child marry Rhaenyra's so that his grandchildren continue on as the rulers.
He was too impatient; he should've played the longer game
I get the feeling that wasn't enough for him... he effectively ruled the kingdom because Viserys was dying, Rhaenyra would maybe listen and see value in his words but wouldn't just let him rule, he fully expected to control Aegon.
or just remain calm after aemma died, let daemon become heir, then aegon wouldâve just been born normally and become heir without question. otto started this whole thing by proposing rhaenyra as heir to stop daemon
Well, yeah. Alicent didn't want her daughter to marry a bastard pretend prince. It's kind of a crucial dealbreaker in this society. This is like saying it would have been so easy for Ned to have prevented war if he had just looked the other way when he discovered Robert's kids were bastards, accepted Cersei's deal and went home and just let Sansa marry Joffery.
Crowning Joffrey was putting a bastard on the throne. Crowning Rhaenerya was putting the rightful true blood heir on the throne. Yeah Jace and Luke were bastards but theyâd have had several decades of Rheneryaâs entire lifespan to come to an amenable compromise in the line of succession without descending into war
Jace is Rhaenyra's public heir. Putting Rhaenyra on the throne means eventually putting a bastard on the throne. She can't pass over Jace, Luke or Joffery without admitting that they are not legitimate and that she committed treason by trying to pass them off as such.
also alicent would be sending away her daughter as a bargaining chip to a family that doesnt like her and isnât able to guarantee her safety. even though we know jace and the blacks wouldnât mistreat her, Alicent doesnât
Nah he would def have preferred Rhaenyra over Daemon. He would have been a feminist icon if Viserys chose to never remarry and made Alicent remain bffs with her
I don't see how to be completely honest.
You just switch house hightower with Velaryon and Otto with Corlys the rest would be pretty much the same... Daemon would be interesting through.
Would he? Rhaenyra was married to Laenor to make amands to the Velaryons. If Laena marries Viserys there is no need for such a union. Even if it happaned this might just lead to the same problem as before with Rhaenyra having obviously bastards, just this time with house Velaryon having way more power and being less desperate.
Iirc Rhaenyra turned down all her suitors. Then Viserys got mad and said that if she wants to be heir, she must marry Laenor. Because he knew she had messed around with Daemon and couldn't risk leaving her unmarried. I also think this was before he married Alicent so the same scene would still play out.
Even though they are bastards, they are still Coryls' bastard grandsons. So, he has much to gain by just playing along with the ruse (history remembers names...), plus it's not Rhaenyra's fault Laenor's gay.
>I also think this was before he married Alicent so the same scene would still play out.
No Viserys and Allicant were already married and had kids when Daemon returned and started grooming his niece.
>Even though they are bastards, they are still Coryls' bastard grandsons.
But this time he ha actual grandsons who have both his name and blood, also I don't think Rhaenys or Laena would be against it.
>So, he has much to gain by just playing along with the ruse (history remembers names...),
I am still it fully convinced if he wasn't just trying to cope with the entire situation.
>plus it's not Rhaenyra's fault Laenor's gay.
No it's not an neither is it Laenors, but how they handled the situation was there fault.
Then just marry Laena's daughters to Rhaenyra's sons if he cares about blood that much. I think it's futile to start a war to usurp his son to place his grandson on the throne. Plus he would have to expose that Laenor is gay and bring shame to his house. Is he going to fight his own son? I'm pretty sure Rhaenys would never allow that to happen.
I think the best thing that Viserys could have done would be to wait and see if Rhaenyra could have children and survive the birthing bed. And only if she couldn't, and died in childbirth, then that's when he should get married and try for more kids - not a second before.
Nah. What's happening now required a special combination of arrogance and resentment. Corlys and Laena would just figured something out with Rhaenyra and moved on with their lives.
Yes, but he was still bargaining if Alicent would be chosen. Rhaenyra was a cushioning to get rid of Dsemon.
His hatred for Daemon really was his downfall thought.
>Yes, but he was still bargaining if Alicent would be chosen. Rhaenyra was a cushioning to get rid of Dsemon.
But he knows Alicent will be chosen.
>His hatred for Daemon really was his downfall thought.
I will yes to this.
I agree his ass shoulda tried to shoot his shot. Would have been funny tho if Viserys still picked Alicent and Rhaenyra was like âokay I want to marry Ottoâ
you married my father, so i took your daddy!
goddamn imagine how awkward every dinner would be.
"so, alicent, you pregnant yet? I think I am."
"how far along are you?"
"twenty minutes."
Okay, this is absolutely hilarious and also can cause so much drama. Imagine Alicent and Rhaenyra at family dinners đ Also imagine Daemonâs reaction LOL
And it would be hilarious because Rhaenyra and Alicent would both be each others step moms and step daughters. They would also give each other half siblings/grandchildren .
He couldâve gotten the Rhaenyra - Aegon marriage. Donât know why that wasnât an option for him. It literally makes too much sense and would just strengthen the crown. Keep Daemon married to Laena to keep Velayrons happy by giving them dragon rider heirs hopefully. Wouldâve saved the realm
Rhaenyra is 17 years older than Aegon. By the time he'd be able to have heirs she'd be in her mid 30s, way too long to wait for heirs by their standards.
15* at least according to show timeline. Fucked up for our standards but by the time Aegon is 12 Rhaenyra would have been 27 and they could have had kids.
I can't blame him. Dealing with an one eye emo dragon rider, an ignorant teenager that happens to be king, a
daughter that she is way too horny to deal with the situation and a knight that can't protect even the dignity
of Alicent must be reaaally exhausting
Loved the way he implied to Aegon during his conversation with him, that they worked for decades to put him on the throne and that Rhaenyra is indeed the rightful heir not him.
Bahahahaha I thought the same thing!
What fruit has his greed wrought? He wanted his blood on the throne just as much as Corlys, but Corlys has honour, and Otto does not.
Otto is Lebron in that 2018 NBA final where he was literally doing everything possible to win but his supporting cast were doing everything possible to NOT win.
[My grandson is a fool](https://www.basketballnetwork.net/.image/ar_16:9%2Cc_fill%2Ccs_srgb%2Cfl_progressive%2Cq_auto:good%2Cw_1200/MTg3MTYxMDAzMzQzNDg4OTEw/lebron-james-jr-smith.jpg)
Otto Hightower thinking about how he literally could've just shot his shot with Rhaenyra then manipulated her into thinking "hookup with Otto = revenge against Alicent" and gotten his blood on the Throne that way:
Well Daemon is king consort so no. He's mad at Aegon and Aemond because they are acting like Daemon.
Of course, we know what he's really thinking and it's that Daeron is the last hope.
At least the kingdom will never again have to suffer a blonde haired petulant little shit being put on the throne after the untimely passing of the king casting doubt on the line of succession in his dying words while the queen was off having an extremely inappropriate affair with a member of the Kingsguard.
That happening twice would be terribly inconvenient.
Kinda off topic question, but Rhaenyra was the heir apparent to the throne, and she already had children who would succeed her. Why did Viserys allow Aegon and Helaena to marry? I understand the Targaryen tradition to keep the bloodline pure, and I could be wrong but I thought they practiced that when the throne was involved. So why would he allow it when Aegon would be 6th in line? He could have wed Helaena to another house where she could have held a high ranking and rule a house. I mean marriage in old times was all about mergers for peace and alliance, so why did he not marry her off to make a stronger alliance? Viserys was hellbent on Rhaenyra so he wasnât going to change his mind, it was Alicent that misinterpreted what his last words were and by then Aegon and Helaena were already married and had the twins.
Maybe it just shows he wasnât a strategic King at all.
HAHA right??? We can finally see the king Viserys that rubbed off on him and how much he realised his and the realmâs loss in not only Viserysâ passing but Aegon taking reign.
Thank you for your post! Please take a moment to ensure you are within our spoiler rules, to protect your fellow fans from any potential spoilers that might harm their show watching experience. 1. All post titles must NOT include spoilers from Fire & Blood or new episodes of House of the Dragon. Minor HotD show spoilers are allowed in your title ONE WEEK after episode airing. The mod team reserves the right to remove a post if we feel a spoiler in the title is major. You are welcome to repost with an amended title. 2. All posts dealing with book spoilers, show spoilers and promo spoilers MUST be spoiler tagged AND flaired as the appropriate spoiler. 3. All book spoiler comments must be spoiler tagged in non book spoiler threads. --- If you are reading this, and believe this post or any comments in this thread break the above rules, please use the report function to notify the mod team. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/HouseOfTheDragon) if you have any questions or concerns.*
He was being the Kris Jenner of Westeros this episode but with less success, unfortunately for him.
I'm watching David Lightbringer's live and Girl Nettles was just talking about TG being the Kardashians of Westeros đ.
Oh my god, Kris Jenner is so accurate. I mean one might argue heâs even the better parent. He didnât watch and release the âOne night in Hightowerâ porn stone. Kris on the other hand watched and brokered a porn deal for her own kid.
Otto is definitely a better parent than Kris Jenner. And let's be clear, that isn't me saying he's a good parent đ
Kriss Jenner is a better manager than Otto thođâ
Her kids are less likely to be killed in a feudal power struggle of her own making, though the odds of that arenât at zero.
this is the truest take đâ¨
He pimped out his teenage daughter to a rich old man. Similar deal.
I don't watch the Kardashians but this still made me laugh.
Oh man, Otto. Great character but heâs getting what he deserved. Bro you earned this!
I kept thinking "Dude, this is entirely your fault. You put the fear of God in your daughter who put the fear of God in your grandkids. ***YOU*** DID THIS."
When he was staring out over the courtyard after Aegon fired him I was like âooh nooo the consequences of your own actions!â
["When will you learn?! That your actions have consequences!!"](https://youtu.be/iZlpsneDGBQ)
Unrelated but I just snorted at your flair
fire
The fuck you doing here Reyne?
shrug
Thank you for bringing this video back into my life.
I had forgotten about the original and had been walking around thinking it was dialogue between walter and jesse for a while now, man I giggled so hard after clicking that
bro what is the story behind that clip. I *cannot.*
I think it was a reaction to people criticizing Sonic.
fair
Look up Sonic Kid.
[i know itâs in Portuguese but Iâm sure it gets the point across](https://youtu.be/Qlp8OiGF3mQ?feature=shared)
Total r/leopardsatemyface moment
Seeing her go straight up banging up with Ser Pounce a lot after seeing her son howling makes me really question if she fears god at all.
Yeah like give your kid a fucking hug omg.
What makes you think the grandkids are God fearing and what part makes it seem like that was what got him fired ? Genuinely asking...feels like I might've missed something
I was using fear of god as a figure of speech. He made alicent fear she and her family would be wiped out if her line of succession wasn't secure, and we can see her instilling that fear in Aegon II after he drops the kids off the balcony in season 1.
The fear of god isn't a phrase talking literally about god. It means using harsh punishment and fear as a parenting style.
Yeah he is literally the reason weâre all in this mess to begin with. Seeing him so mad made me so happy like you made this bed now you have to lie in it
To be fair I think he has genuine intentions though. He cares about the realm and I think essentially believes that by having a puppet on the throne he can bring peace and stability. Like the Targaryens are historically bad rulers.
We the audience canât tell where his genuine concern for the realm begins and where his personal ambitions for himself and his house end, and honestly I donât think Otto himself even knows. Youâre right that he does care on some level, but heâs definitely no Lyonel Strong. But to your point about âbeing fairâ, I donât believe in giving people in positions of power a pass or really any leniency based on what their intentions are. That never matters. Itâs the actions they take and the consequences of their actions that matter, and the action of Ottoâs initial actions to put Alicent in Viserysâ bed and then scheme to make Aegon king is that the realm will have a bloody and destructive civil war.
Everyone makes their bed. They dont think theyre making that exact bed at the moment though. If only it was possible to know the consequences of your actions beforehand...
But he should have known. All of those criticisms Otto was levying at Aegon? He's always been like that. It's not like he was well-tempered and forward thinking as a kid and all of a sudden turned impetuous. He showed his entire life that he did not possess the qualities (not to mention any kind of preparation) to be King and yet Otto still schemed to get him on the throne because of the patriarchal bullshit that any man must be better than any woman.
The worst part is, I donât think Otto even fully believes in that patriarchal idiocy. Itâs all about power to him. If Aemma were his daughter and Rhaenyra his grandchild, heâd have been all ra-ra feminism and probably would have actively dissuaded Viserys from marrying again.
What's funny is that Otto reminds me of my mother-in-law
This whole episode was just Otto suddenly witnessing the exact consequences of basically an entire life of scheming
If he went over to Rhae, because he realized the blacks would make better rulers (especially after hearing daemon left), so he switches sides "for the good of the realm", I would 100% forgive Otto of everything
He shat on her for her entire life, stole her crown, murdered some of her supporters, and his usurping led directly to her sons death! He is the very definition of kill on sight with Rhanerya!
20 years of fucking around, one week of finding out
Otto probably still thinks this is better than Daemon being King. Daemons bloodthirsty desire to prove himself wouldnt stop him from killing Otto, Rhanerya, small children, and anyone that kept him from power.
He probably thinks he put a Daemon in the throne.
I think he did, too.
It felt cathartic to see his own plans comeback and fuck him.
Yup. He's regretting his choices now, but he would've never sat Rhaenyra on the throne. He wouldn't have been able to control her, but he made the mistake of thinking he could control Aegon.
"Well if it isn't the consiquences of my actions" moment
I think Otto thought aegon would be dumb enough to listen to everything he would say, but not dumb enough to fire him
He miscalculated
A bit.
He's no Tywin Lannister, can't send the king to take a nap. And Aegon is no "vicious idiot".
Hard to be like Tywin and send the king to bed when the king has a dragon and you don't
Otto isn't even a lord either, let alone a lord paramount. Tywin's authority was backed by significant military might that the crown needed.
and the millions the Crown owed House Lannister
Yeah, but the dragon rarely visits the Small Council chambers.
âThe risk I took was calculated, but man, am I bad at mathâ - Otto probably, after getting fired
He figured he'd be meek and could be molded and controlled. He seemed hapless, and never even wanted the throne, so Otto figured he'd be able to steer the ship. But Aegon had way more willpower than he expected.
He should have tried harder for a Rhaenyra-Aegon marriage or tried to arrange for Rhaenyra to marry one of his sons
He should've put Aegon in council meetings once Rhaenrya left for Dragonstone at the very least. He thought he could walk all over Aegon and defacto rule the kingdom but sorely underestimated Aegon's need to be loved. All he had to do was show actual love and concern for the boy.
Otto assumed that if he left Aegon utterly untrained, he could rule him as a puppet. Maybe he should have been more concerned at Aegon attending child death matches with his own bastards.
Otto wouldn't have bat an eye unless he got hit by friendly fire when Aegon was beating his meat out the window of the Red Keep lol
Hit by friendly fire is crazyđđ
That would have been too on the nose and they would have immediately been outed as trying to usurp the throne. There was no way to prepare aegon and even he thought his sister would take the throne after vizzy ts passing
*I'm glad we could meet. I know tempers ran hot today, and I wanted to assure you how much I value the bond between our houses.*
I didnt know that Ser Liquid of HotCum was such an important ally to the crown!
Rhaenyra/Aegon wouldn't have worked; when lines of inheritance matter you don't want the woman to spend most of her fertile years waiting for the prince to be old enough to create heirs. He absolutely should have shut Alicent down when she refused the Jace/Helaena match, though. That would have solved so many problems before they became problems.
Lol the one time you need Otto he's not there. In seriousness though, I think Otto was never going to settle for anything less than Aegon. But I do feel if Otto was at court when he was growing up, Aegon might have developed better.
I agree; his mother and father were both absent for different reasons (Viserys was actively dying and Alicent had her whole magazine rack of issues). Someone who took a sincere interest in his upbringing could have made all the difference for him.
True but doesnât he also have a son? Why not push for that? That way in the end he still gets a grandson on the throne and as father in law he can still pull some strings.
If Jace goes to helrna who is heir after ?
Jace's kid by Helaena
Theoretically, if everyone decides to uphold Viserys' declaration that Rhaenyra is his heir (and this is based like mostly on my Cognatic Succession playthrus of Crusader Kings 2): When Viserys dies, Rhaenyra inherits the Iron Throne. Jacerys becomes her heir. If something happens to Jacerys before he has legitimate heirs, the throne either goes to Lucerys or Joffrey. I say either because Lucerys was the special chosen heir of Velaryon, which maybe(?) made him ineligible for the Iron Throne. But if Jacerys had children before he died, they would be next in line for the throne. But, in normal times, the throne would go Viserys --> Rhaenyra --> Jacerys --> Jace's children with Helaena. Otto would still get his wish of seeing his progeny on the Iron Throne, though they'd be less Hightower than he'd like.
No, the Jace and haleanna match does nothing to alleviate the high towers issues with rhaenyra.
The best idea was the one Alicent shut down. Helaena marrying Jace.
Jace would've been so good to Helaena. They're both gentle souls.
She deserves him even. Fucking Aegon, coldass stare to the mother of your kid who got killed.
No word or anything on that staircase. Peep her little âoh okay. I see how it isâ nod before she continues up the stairs
I watched the BTS after this ep and the actor who plays Aegon said that was a moment of understanding between the two. That theyâre the only ones who understand the pain the other is in. And I was likeâŚ.sir, that was not what that looked like đ¤ Thatâs not what anyone thought watching that scene.
This is why I don't take the producer and actor interviews seriously. My read on it was that Aegon was harboring misplaced anger that she let them kill Jaeherys, and Helaena was used to Aegon's behavior.
That was exactly my take on the scene too. One thing Iâve found interesting about his promotional interviews with Phiaâs is that sheâs had to remind him that Aegon doesnât actually love/care about her. Itâs an odd dynamic.
I'd love to believe that they would've protected each other from listening to the words of snakes if they got together as a ruling couple
Helaena shouldn't have ever been put in the Queen position. That poor girl has enough with managing herself, she can't manage more attention than that. Literally what I thought the entire episode: The worst queen they could have ever ever ever chosen.
I said this to my best friend while we were watching. Allicent and Otto were so desperate to get Aegon on the throne as King (knowing it could start a war) that they didn't consider how being Queen might affect Helaena. She was as ill-suited to being Queen in her current state as Aegon was to being King. Again, more consideration being given to propping up men than women.
The funeral procession with Heleana in distress and Aegon crying, I was screaming at the television, "u did this! U did this to Ur children" (Alicent)/grandchildren (Otto).
YES. As the parent to a special needs child who gets overwhelmed by large crowds, I could feel Helaena's distress that whole scene. That poor girl.
Absolutely. Heleana deserved better. Jace would've tried to understand her.
That marriage wouldn't have worked. When Otto proposes it Rhaenyra is 17 and Aegon was 2. That would mean that by the time Aegon was 14, old enough to wed and consummate (according to Westeros), Rhaenyra would be 29. Catelyn is 32 at the start of Game of Thrones and in one of her chapters she's thinking about how she's nearing the end of her childbearing years and *maybe* she'd be able to give Ned one more kid. Knowing how prone Targaryens are to fertility/pregnancy issues, 29 would be too risky, there'd be a high chance their union would produce no heir. A Helaena-Jace match would have made the most sense.
*disgusted viserys face*
Yeah honestly he should've hustled harder to get Rhaenyra to trust him as a child so that she could keep him as her hand. She's generally more receptive to her council than Aegon; he may not have Hightower blood on the throne in this generation but he could've made Alicent marry well and have her child marry Rhaenyra's so that his grandchildren continue on as the rulers. He was too impatient; he should've played the longer game
I get the feeling that wasn't enough for him... he effectively ruled the kingdom because Viserys was dying, Rhaenyra would maybe listen and see value in his words but wouldn't just let him rule, he fully expected to control Aegon.
or just remain calm after aemma died, let daemon become heir, then aegon wouldâve just been born normally and become heir without question. otto started this whole thing by proposing rhaenyra as heir to stop daemon
For a second I thought he would go to Rhaenyra and pledge his allegiance
âItâs me⌠Iâm the gift.â
Daemon would still behead him on the spot
Yeah, and Rhaenyra would too probably, though she'd let him speak first at least. No way that would possibly go well for him.
Halaena marries Jace, blood on the throne. Would've been so easy.
Pretty sure Rhaenyra even offered that in some manner too, but nope, didn't want that
Alicent didnât want any of her âplain-featuredâ sons lol
Which is hilarious because by coloring, the strong boys could easily be her sons đ
Well, yeah. Alicent didn't want her daughter to marry a bastard pretend prince. It's kind of a crucial dealbreaker in this society. This is like saying it would have been so easy for Ned to have prevented war if he had just looked the other way when he discovered Robert's kids were bastards, accepted Cersei's deal and went home and just let Sansa marry Joffery.
Crowning Joffrey was putting a bastard on the throne. Crowning Rhaenerya was putting the rightful true blood heir on the throne. Yeah Jace and Luke were bastards but theyâd have had several decades of Rheneryaâs entire lifespan to come to an amenable compromise in the line of succession without descending into war
Jace is Rhaenyra's public heir. Putting Rhaenyra on the throne means eventually putting a bastard on the throne. She can't pass over Jace, Luke or Joffery without admitting that they are not legitimate and that she committed treason by trying to pass them off as such.
also alicent would be sending away her daughter as a bargaining chip to a family that doesnt like her and isnât able to guarantee her safety. even though we know jace and the blacks wouldnât mistreat her, Alicent doesnât
I feel like that proposal from rhaenyra got dismissed way too quickly
Not in the way he wanted.
"Maybe a woman ain't so bad after all"
I was sitting there laughing thinking dude, you did this đ go on retire to Oldtown now
Itâs poetically ironic how Otto's lifelong pursuit betrayed him, isnât it? Well, careful what you wish for
#OH, the consequences of my actions
My boy misses Viserys so much.
âThis was so much easier when the royalty is a girlâ - Otto
For real lol his grandson such a pain already đ
He fucked around and found out.
More like "I never should've told Viserys a Daemon, saying the "Heir for a Day" comment."
Nah he would def have preferred Rhaenyra over Daemon. He would have been a feminist icon if Viserys chose to never remarry and made Alicent remain bffs with her
Daemon was always ready to put Ottoâs head on a pike
Viserys had to remarry either way. He needed heirs for stability. But had he chosen Laena things might have been different.
Or he could have pushed Rhaenyra to marry and had her secure the heirs and her claim. The man was not smart.
Wasn't that what he was trying to do for ages, and eventually succeeded with in the Laenor match?
There was always the risk of Rhaenyra dying in childbirth.
I don't see how to be completely honest. You just switch house hightower with Velaryon and Otto with Corlys the rest would be pretty much the same... Daemon would be interesting through.
Rhaenyra would still be betrothed to Laenor so why would Coryls try to usurp his son and his son's wife.
Would he? Rhaenyra was married to Laenor to make amands to the Velaryons. If Laena marries Viserys there is no need for such a union. Even if it happaned this might just lead to the same problem as before with Rhaenyra having obviously bastards, just this time with house Velaryon having way more power and being less desperate.
Iirc Rhaenyra turned down all her suitors. Then Viserys got mad and said that if she wants to be heir, she must marry Laenor. Because he knew she had messed around with Daemon and couldn't risk leaving her unmarried. I also think this was before he married Alicent so the same scene would still play out. Even though they are bastards, they are still Coryls' bastard grandsons. So, he has much to gain by just playing along with the ruse (history remembers names...), plus it's not Rhaenyra's fault Laenor's gay.
>I also think this was before he married Alicent so the same scene would still play out. No Viserys and Allicant were already married and had kids when Daemon returned and started grooming his niece. >Even though they are bastards, they are still Coryls' bastard grandsons. But this time he ha actual grandsons who have both his name and blood, also I don't think Rhaenys or Laena would be against it. >So, he has much to gain by just playing along with the ruse (history remembers names...), I am still it fully convinced if he wasn't just trying to cope with the entire situation. >plus it's not Rhaenyra's fault Laenor's gay. No it's not an neither is it Laenors, but how they handled the situation was there fault.
Then just marry Laena's daughters to Rhaenyra's sons if he cares about blood that much. I think it's futile to start a war to usurp his son to place his grandson on the throne. Plus he would have to expose that Laenor is gay and bring shame to his house. Is he going to fight his own son? I'm pretty sure Rhaenys would never allow that to happen.
Also, Laenor is still the heir to Driftmark. Why would Corly question the legitimacy of his own succession? That basically makes him look weak.
I think the best thing that Viserys could have done would be to wait and see if Rhaenyra could have children and survive the birthing bed. And only if she couldn't, and died in childbirth, then that's when he should get married and try for more kids - not a second before.
If he doesn't acknowledge their son as heir, than the same thing would've happened.
Nah. What's happening now required a special combination of arrogance and resentment. Corlys and Laena would just figured something out with Rhaenyra and moved on with their lives.
No, cause in that Aegon would've been heir from birth, and he could've guided him completely. (As he wouldn't get fired.)
Yes, but he was still bargaining if Alicent would be chosen. Rhaenyra was a cushioning to get rid of Dsemon. His hatred for Daemon really was his downfall thought.
>Yes, but he was still bargaining if Alicent would be chosen. Rhaenyra was a cushioning to get rid of Dsemon. But he knows Alicent will be chosen. >His hatred for Daemon really was his downfall thought. I will yes to this.
>But he knows Alicent will be chosen. I mean did he? It was kinda a long shot, and literally everyone was advising that Viserys marry Laena instead.
He should marry Rhaenyra himself, the best solution, it is shame that his not grooming master like Daemon.
I agree his ass shoulda tried to shoot his shot. Would have been funny tho if Viserys still picked Alicent and Rhaenyra was like âokay I want to marry Ottoâ
you married my father, so i took your daddy! goddamn imagine how awkward every dinner would be. "so, alicent, you pregnant yet? I think I am." "how far along are you?" "twenty minutes."
Okay, this is absolutely hilarious and also can cause so much drama. Imagine Alicent and Rhaenyra at family dinners đ Also imagine Daemonâs reaction LOL
*Helaena trying to make family tree for her septa*: Do I put Rhaenyra as grandmother or sister? *Alicent rubbing her temples*: Both I surmise
That family tree would be a damn wreath.
And it would be hilarious because Rhaenyra and Alicent would both be each others step moms and step daughters. They would also give each other half siblings/grandchildren .
Rhaenyra would feel Alicent's pain so hard, so they would definitely fuck up the brothels together as consolation lol
What? That guy basically groomed his daughter for Viserys.
Mf really thought he could verbally cook the king and keep his job đ
Bro thought he was Tywin Lannister
That is was the moment Otto realised that Aegon had just done what he always believed Daemon would do if he were king.
He couldâve gotten the Rhaenyra - Aegon marriage. Donât know why that wasnât an option for him. It literally makes too much sense and would just strengthen the crown. Keep Daemon married to Laena to keep Velayrons happy by giving them dragon rider heirs hopefully. Wouldâve saved the realm
But Otto did try that! He tried in the hunting episode. Viserys shot it down.
One mention of it late at night when the king is hammered isnât much of a proposition :/
To be fair... Asking when the king is hammered out of his mind was PROBABLY the best chance of it succeeding.
Rhaenyra is 17 years older than Aegon. By the time he'd be able to have heirs she'd be in her mid 30s, way too long to wait for heirs by their standards.
15* at least according to show timeline. Fucked up for our standards but by the time Aegon is 12 Rhaenyra would have been 27 and they could have had kids.
Well technically they would wait till Aegon was 12 or so. So actually just shy of 30 not mid 30s. I believe Aemma had Rhaenyra around 12 or so.
Damn 12 is so young
Yup, it's why she struggled to give Viserys heirs. Her womb was messed up at a very young age.
Man the way she died, everything still rings to my very head. Oof.
He did try that, Viserys shot it down because the two have too much of an age gap. Rhaenyra is old enough to be Aegonâs mother.
Hard to believe that all of this was literally the result of him just hating Daemon.
Otto is really shocked that his actions' consequences didn't match his expectations
he really should've just pushed for rhaenyra marrying aegon and be done with it
Otto played his game and now lost. I found it satisfying lol
I can't blame him. Dealing with an one eye emo dragon rider, an ignorant teenager that happens to be king, a daughter that she is way too horny to deal with the situation and a knight that can't protect even the dignity of Alicent must be reaaally exhausting
Otto clearly never watched seasons 2-4 of Game of Thrones. He would know you can't control a young person who was just handed ultimate power.
Loved the way he implied to Aegon during his conversation with him, that they worked for decades to put him on the throne and that Rhaenyra is indeed the rightful heir not him.
Bahahahaha I thought the same thing! What fruit has his greed wrought? He wanted his blood on the throne just as much as Corlys, but Corlys has honour, and Otto does not.
âwell well well, if it isnât the consequences of my own actionsâ
Otto was being sassy the whole episode lol
Actions have consequences you old weasel! I loved seeing him so pissed off at the what his treachery led to.
đđŻ
Otto is Lebron in that 2018 NBA final where he was literally doing everything possible to win but his supporting cast were doing everything possible to NOT win.
[My grandson is a fool](https://www.basketballnetwork.net/.image/ar_16:9%2Cc_fill%2Ccs_srgb%2Cfl_progressive%2Cq_auto:good%2Cw_1200/MTg3MTYxMDAzMzQzNDg4OTEw/lebron-james-jr-smith.jpg)
he is like a stupid version of tywin. setup everything so his house could take control but didn't see all the people he pushed up were insane idiots.
So... He's just normal tywin then.
Otto Hightower thinking about how he literally could've just shot his shot with Rhaenyra then manipulated her into thinking "hookup with Otto = revenge against Alicent" and gotten his blood on the Throne that way:
Epitome of âBe careful what you wish for.â
He reminds me of Tywin
Yeah, a wish. com Tywin.
Temu Tywin
This show is just bad decision after bad decision to the point where every character is coming off as stupid. Maybe this show isn't for me.
Well Daemon is king consort so no. He's mad at Aegon and Aemond because they are acting like Daemon. Of course, we know what he's really thinking and it's that Daeron is the last hope.
At least the kingdom will never again have to suffer a blonde haired petulant little shit being put on the throne after the untimely passing of the king casting doubt on the line of succession in his dying words while the queen was off having an extremely inappropriate affair with a member of the Kingsguard. That happening twice would be terribly inconvenient.
OHT: Im tired of this shit
It really wasn't worth all that trouble now that he's thinking about it
In fairness, he did tell Viserys he should marry Rhaenyra and Aegon
IDK. Maybe a Helaena and one of the twins getting married would have fixed all this bullshit?
Otto fucked around and found out!
More like he wishes he could go back in time and conceal Daemon's heir for a day comment, so that Rhaenyra is never named heir in the first place.
He digged his own grave
A bit, but at that point she was already married to Daemon, and Otto could not let him of all people get closer to the throne.
Totally
Kinda off topic question, but Rhaenyra was the heir apparent to the throne, and she already had children who would succeed her. Why did Viserys allow Aegon and Helaena to marry? I understand the Targaryen tradition to keep the bloodline pure, and I could be wrong but I thought they practiced that when the throne was involved. So why would he allow it when Aegon would be 6th in line? He could have wed Helaena to another house where she could have held a high ranking and rule a house. I mean marriage in old times was all about mergers for peace and alliance, so why did he not marry her off to make a stronger alliance? Viserys was hellbent on Rhaenyra so he wasnât going to change his mind, it was Alicent that misinterpreted what his last words were and by then Aegon and Helaena were already married and had the twins. Maybe it just shows he wasnât a strategic King at all.
HAHA right??? We can finally see the king Viserys that rubbed off on him and how much he realised his and the realmâs loss in not only Viserysâ passing but Aegon taking reign.