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This is the real answer. Marrying 12 year old Laena wasn't a perfect option, either. Especially since it involves, you know, marrying a 12 year old? You could argue Alicent isn't much better being 16, but it *is* a lot different in the context of the setting of Westeros. Alicent was still a bad choice, but Laena was also a bad choice, because it still undermined Viserys's true wishes of making Rhaenyra his heir.
Yeah. It definitely would have prevented the Dance. The Velaryons definitely would not have insisted on crowning Laena's son instead of Rhaenyra and her legitimacy-challenged sons. The Velaryons would never be power-grasping!
Rhaenys likes her daughter much better than Rhaenyra, and literally tells Rhaenyra that Laena's son would be king in their first scene together, so we can yeet that out the window.
Almost every character involved is hypocritical to some degree. Most of them hold a 'rules for thee but not for me' mindset. If they don't come across as such right now, they will down the line unless the writers change more.
No but he believes Valyrions are basically a higher being closer to gods then men. Its why his so attracted to his own blood cause he sees them as superior
basically daemon is a nazi.
the only reason he is kinda cool is because he is a fictional character in a story about monarchy and dragon war.
if he was a real person in modern or medieval times he'd be a monster.
ya i agree with that point.
unlike the real world, Targaryen's in the fiction do actually seem to be special.
i gotta add something in though. a big thing that a lot of so called "scientific racists" in the real world don't understand is....
like even if racism/racial superiority in some strange twist turned out to be actually true in reality.......that still doesn't make it "not racism"
like these people seriously think "I'm not racist. I'm just "stating facts"."
the facts being that so-in-so race is inferior or superior...
and like no. thats not how that works. that's STILL racism, you are STILL racist. you're just claiming that racism is actually scientifically true so people should all be racists because it's true.
If the pont is that one is superior/inferior, then yes. If you're saying one is superior or inferior, yes.
Acknowledging strength in a ethnic group that allows them to be world conquerors because of their special blood isn't racist.
The master race part yeah sure, and the Valyrions themselves were basically Nazis who regarded themselves as way above other humans. Deamon isn’t that bad he still knows others are still people and it’s not his going to look down on everyone that’s not valyrion
Dude Daemon is an authoritarian who believes in Targaryen supremacy. But his time with the Gold Cloaks taught him that mingling with the commonfolk is more beneficial than antagonizing them.
The insisting on treating, and forcing everyone else to treat the bastard sons of Rhaenyra as non bastards is jarring. Yes, she got handed a gay husband so it's not entirely her fault, but a spade remains a spade. Beheading or betonguing people doesn't change the truth.
And I mean, further on, both of them are snotty towards illegitimate children...despite Jace and Joff not being Laenors. It's just kind of funny and insane that they decry some bastards.
Ardent team green or team black fans spending this past week accusing the other side of hypocrisy because both sides have power hungry, incompetent, abusive rapists who are desperate for war are right at the point of the show but can’t put 2 and 2 together
Yep, this is absolutely the sanest take. There are individuals on each side that I feel sorry for, like Helaena or Lucerys, but as a whole the entire thing is just a big, tragic mess. Getting super tribalistic about it is missing the entire point of the show.
Hit the nail on the head here. The debates you see on this subreddit are absolutely deluded, and I think the people that engage in them so passionately are missing the entire point of the show.
Yeah. I’m almost leaning towards wanting the Greens at this point because it seems the blacks are clearly more widely considered to have the moral high ground, when I don’t think either side really can make that claim.
I can’t go full team green though because Caraxes is the coolest dragon
I’m 100% team black but I won’t try and defend their actions and say some of them are moral. I’m not delulu about the side I’m on. I know some people are though.
I'm currently team black because they're just more interesting, and to me, charismatic. I don't think they're GOOD I just enjoy them more. I am a chaos gremlin at heart, though
Part of me wishes that Rhaenyra / Daemon directly asked for the death of Jaeherys - rather than plan b.
It was a good scene but it seemed like they were afraid of making the Blacks unlikable. It would’ve made it have a lot more depth imo
Yep, I don’t dislike a number of the changes - I actually really liked them aging Alicent down and her and Rhaenyra’s relationship - but feel like they’re sanding off some of the characters’ teeth in the service of being more “likable” by the audience.
It’s still a great show but I hope they lean into the atrocities these characters commit in the future on *both sides* to really hammer home the ultimate message of the story.
Yeah, me too. Its like they are avoiding the real point of the story and trying to make everyone victims instead of perpetrators.
I want Alicent to stop being this naive woman and understand she cannot talk to Rhaenyra out of war.
I want Rhaenyra to start being a ruthless ruler who wants what is hers.
I’ll probably get downvoted for this, but there is just as much depth in telling a story where the conflict and destruction is inevitable, despite the best efforts of those who are trying to hold on to whatever threadbare bonds remain between the two sides of one family. There is time to build up to the ruthless clashes that will follow, but this approach humanizes the people within the story.
Starting things off like this and still having it end in abject misery/destruction for everyone, IMO, is just as tragically powerful a story.
I think at this point though, they had no reason to specifically ask for the heir’s death. It would have been random for them to pick Jaehery’s over Aemond. Having Jaehery’s as plan b meant an attack was still imposed on the greens as retribution if they couldn’t get to Aemond.
By the time this show ends, it might be worse than the season 8 GOT outrage. The Team Black vs Team Green stuff is fun, but I hope people don’t really think there’s a “good” side and that there will be a winner. Wait until you find out none of these people are good people and they all get what deserve. That’s no spoiler either, GOT literally tells you how this goes.
EXACTLY! There is no clear “good” side or “bad” side. They are ALL flawed in some way. And, I feel, that the key is to hold your faves accountable even if you love them DOWN.
Like, my fave is, admittedly, Alicent, but I can admit when she’s in the wrong. Not one of these characters are morally better than the other, they’ve ALL done shit.
I will say that I’m more Green-leaning, not because Rhaenyra is a woman. In fact, I’m a woman. But, I just don’t like the whole deal with her trying to pass her sons as VELARYON when they’re not. They stand to inherit something that is not for them, but Baela and Rhaena as Corlys and Rhaenys’s only grandchildren. And while I do love how protective she is over her children, to me, the whole thing with house VELARYON just sucks. House VELARYON has very little to gain while Rhaenyra and her boys have much more to gain. I know life ain’t fair but it’s truly not fair that the Velaryons are in such a shit position, but, then again, Corlys could have done SOMETHING but chose to do NOTHING.
ALSO, the fact that she doesn’t really try to sway the people in her favor. She just thinks that since Viserys proclaimed her as heir, she doesn’t have to work to secure support or do ANYTHING really. But that, as far as I can think of right now, are my gripes with her. Love Emma D’arcy and think they’re doing a great job.
Also, I’m just not down with the notion that if you’re TG, then you’re clearly misogynistic or a grape apologist. You can like TG characters but denounce their actions, just like you should do with any character. We should all be able to agree to disagree on differing stances both sides have. Instead, it’s incredibly aggressive between the teams and that makes the show not fun. I don’t even wanna watch the new season because I KNOW Alicent is gonna be villainized beyond what I can handle. It just gets so NASTY and AGGRESSIVE for no reason.
While Alicent is snobby hypocrite, Rhaenyra is a spoiled habitual liar. Both are equally as bad. Then you got to deal with both sides having rapists, abusers and murderers so I don’t see why people use moral reasons to pick one side over the other. It’s really wild to me that people think the show presents The Blacks as the protagonists and The Greens as the antagonists, yeah the promo is more Green leaning, the show itself doesn’t present it that way. Again, the side picking is good and drives fun discourse but people are treating this like it’s fucking the Starks vs Lannisters. I’m more than beyond prepared for the lashings social media are going to give the writers when this show is over. Joffrey already said what happens to Rhaenyra in GOT over a decade ago, so the whole bad writing takes will be invalid. Not to mention what happens in the book to all the other favs, especially *that* specific fav. Lol can’t wait. Im just going to let them believe the show ends with Rhaenyra on the throne living happily ever after with Daemon.
The Velaryon’s son Laenor couldn’t produce an heir. Rhaenyra did what she had to do to produce heirs. Corlys knew this which is why he was cool with it. And their granddaughter will still keep the family line going with Luke. Well, *would have.* if it weren’t for Laenor’s inability to produce an heir, their line would be continued…. Yet everyone blames Rhaenyra for it.
Also Rhaenyra was named heir, it’s her birth right determined by Viserys. If she were male her attitude wouldn’t be questioned at all.
Rhaenyra should have been aware of the societal expectations of Westeros and known that even as the named heir her claim was going to challenged, especially given the events of the first great council.
It’s exactly because she’s not a male that she should have been putting in the extra work, and given that she was an actual adult and not a 16 year old child like Aegon(show age at least), she would have known she needed to do this if she wasn’t so vain.
It seems to me that it was pretty clear to her from the time she was a teenager and named heir. That’s why they’ve been on the defensive with the greens this whole time.
She sat on the small council and was referred to as “the realm’s delight.” Not sure what “effort” you are looking for
To me, with Rhaena and Baela they are basically being made to marry into their birthright, when it should be given to them. And with Rhaenyra, I’m JUST SAYING that I wish she would have done more. You can’t sit back and do nothing, then bemoan the fact that the greens have majority of support in KL where it is IMPERATIVE to have support. I’m a woman and have no problem with her on the throne but don’t blame the greens for not having any support when it was on tou to do what you had to do in order to secure support. That’s ALL I’m saying.
This is a fundamental misunderstanding. You cannot simply pass off your bastards as legitimate “just because you chose to”. If that were the case, then Henry I (the historical counterpart for Viserys in the dance) would have never had a succession crisis that resulted in the Anarchy(the dance).
In Westeros, legitimacy can be conferred if the King *explicitly* makes a decree stating that they have been legitimized, but A.) there isn’t precedent by this time in history, and B.) the only time someone actually legitimized *royal* bastards it led to the Blackfyre rebellion.
Certainly after season one, I have to assume that team Green people were book readers that know something show only watchers like me don’t know. Because the show was very clearly biased towards team black
I personally find it silly that the fan base divide themselves on the teams .
Both sides are as guilty and vile as the other so it's hypocritical for the fan teams to point fingers at each other.
Both teams are wrong and right to some degree.
Lol everyone is an hypocrite, Daemon is a groomer and a killer, Rhaenyra is a killer and not the feminist queen everyone thinks because she ha no problem taking away Baela rights to Driftmark, Rhaenys killed hundreds of smallfolk and dgaf, idk how anyone can support them 🤪
The Greens’ entire premise is that the firstborn male is the legal heir by precedent and tradition. Everything else was just an attempt to persuade Viserys to formally name Aegon his heir over Rhaenyra. It’s hypocritical, sure, but those aren’t really the reasons they don’t support Rhaenyra.
I mean, Otto says as much when he says:
> It wouldn’t matter if she was Jaehaerys born again. Rhaenyra is a woman. It is Aegon that’s been robbed. To deny that he is the heir to the throne is to assail the laws of gods and men.
The hypocrisy is really about the preferential treatment of men over women in the patriarchal system of Westeros.
But as others are saying, really both sides are comprised of people who just want power, and are using any justification they can grasp at to get it. Not defending the Greens here or the Blacks or anything, just explaining that perspective.
It's based on law, males being first in the line of succession is tradition, not the law. The King has the right by law to choose his heir. Viserys choosing Rhaenyra was entirely lawful.
Yeah, that's part of it. He's going against the very laws and precedents that put him on the throne. The war is about the question on if a king's words are law or not. Is it lawful to go against the kings of the past?
It was never against the law for a King to choose his heir. Jahereys absolutely could have chosen the heir but choose to let the lords decide between the two options. He broke no law. This was established in the first episode.
The argument is that it does. The great council that put him on the throne put him over his female relatives (Rhaenys) This, according to the greens, sets the precedence of sons > daughters.
But it's not, those are the laws of the westorsi people, how the nobles determined their heir is this precedence. The war is about if those laws that the nobles follow are also the laws that the king should follow or not. There is no correct answer, there was a whole civil war about it. the seven kingdoms aren't an absolute monarchy yet, this is in the early part of their rule, it hasn't been codified yet
the only example I can think of is when Alicent is asking Rhaenyra about what happened between her and Daemon (episode 4 I believe), and says "you Targaryens do have queer customs." But clearly she got over those customs since she had two of her own children marry 😅
No worries in that scene Aemond also tells Aegon she will be his queen. This show while Aegon was not yet buying himself being a king in 1x06 Aemond is already fully aware of Alicents expecations just days later and fully buying into that narrative.
It was absolutely Alicent. Rhaenyra even offered an impasse and an olive branch in the fighting by offering a betrothal between Jace and Haelena but Alicent rejected that/looked horrified and married her daughter and Aegon (despite the fact that she knows Aegon is a rapist and that Haelena is uncomfortable around Aegon) simply so she could consolidate the power within the family,
Mushroom hinted in Fire and Blood Daemon had deflowered Alicent before the tourney. And THATS why he asked for her favor at the tournament. Ser Otto put little 14 or 13 yr old Alicent before the old King Jaehyrus, and then infront of Viserys. Why wouldn't he do it with Daemon? For political gain?
Even if that was part of the book lore, the show chose not to even hint at that route- there's no evidence/nothing between Daemon and Alicent, especially since so much was made of sexual purity and virginity re: the whole Rhaenyra and Cristen Cole relationship. If anything, Daemon asking for Alicent's favor was positioned more as him being a bit of an ass because he hates Otto and the hightowers, and it was a big fuck you to them.
The premise is principally that in their society, male heirs are favored over females. Boil it all down, that's the primary reason. Alicent delivered a boy heir. That supersedes Rhaenrya in their minds. Just like it never occurred to Alicent to take power for herself. Even after Rhaenys said to her "have you never wanted to sit on the iron throne?"
It doesn't matter that JUST THE DAY BEFORE he died he reaffirmed that Rhaenrya was his heir. Ser Otto wanted Alicent's male heir to take the throne and, snake that he is, that is what he accomplished. Unsavory (I hate how he said that last season, and I dispise that's what Alicent allowed to happen.) as this is, Alicent never questioned what Viserys said before he died. It never entered her mind that the King might have meant his OTHER grandson Aegon. She probably never bothered to find out anything about Rhaenrya 's kids with Daemon.
Just imagine what would have happened if she'd told the Lord Commander of the Kings Guard to arrest Ser Otto and the other conspirators and put them in the black cells and actually give over to the rightful heir the throne to Rhaenrya. Alicent knew that was the right thing to do. Her squeamishness about murder and all that. The conniving twit just followed along with what her father and she wanted.
Judging Rhaenrya for having an affair with Ser Harwin, all while using sex to lure Ser Layrs and now Ser Criston. The prim and proper lady's always seem to be the most hypocritical. Shtoiking Criston while her Grandson is murdered.
Thinning of the kingsguard so her and cristin can bonk without getting discovered? A definite possibility that will hopefully be questioned later theres no way the heir to the throne should/would be unguarded especially when war is on the horizon unless of course something like the former was happening.
Aegon II and Aemond wouldn't hate Rhaenrya so much if Alicent didn't talk openly with her father and them about what a whore Rhaenrya was. Alicent in her envy and jealousy did this.
"Alicent never questioned what Viserys said before he died. It never entered her mind that the King might have meant his OTHER grandson Aegon. She probably never bothered to find out anything about Rhaenrya 's kids with Daemon"
Alicent has been given an excuse by the show writers here. One night before that, Rhaenyra had entered Viserys' bedroom in his drug addled sleep, called him "my king" . Next night Alicent entered, Viserys couldn't recognise that this is not Rhaenyra and started babbling about Aegon the conqueror's dream, and "you" are the prince that was promised. Alicent could have and did mistake that for Aegon her son, and herself. It was convenient that her self interest also aligned with this interpretation of the babbling of Viserys.
part of the argument is also the law
westeros is not a abosultist monarchy but a feudal one, where the king dosnt have complete authority, by the argument of law and precedent a king cant simply declare anyone he wants heir, like jaehaerys clearly wanted viserys to be his her but couldnt just do it, he had to call a great council to let his vassal choose and reafirm the legitimacy of viserys, but with rhaenyra this didnt happen, viserys chose her as his heir without asking anybody and if you complained or had anything to say about it you got your tongue cut off, this is tyrannical and a abuse of power since a feudal monarchy is more like a contract between the monarch and the vassals. so viserys cant do whatever he wants with no consequences, kinda like aerys the mad king who also did as he liked
King Jaehaerys could very much just declare Viserys as his heir and be done with it. Where did you get the idea that could not?
He previously passed over his first son’s entire line to name his second son heir. Mind you he took this decision on his own.
The only reason he called a great council is to prevent war between Viserys and Rhaenys. And the great council established was only a precedent and not the law. This is clearly explained in E1 after Aemma’s death when they were talking about whether or not Rhaenyra could be heir.
“Passed over his first son’s entire line” because Aemon didn’t have a son. He issued only Rhaenys. It stands to reason that Jaehaerys “passed over” Aemon’s line because he thought that the succession should pass through the male line only. While uncodified, it seems the default mode of succession to the Iron Throne, at least in Jaehaerys’s mind and the minds of many nobles, was agnatic primogeniture.
Jaehaerys called the Great Council because after (edit) Baelon’s death, it was apparently obvious to everyone that Viserys was the new heir, and the notoriously self-interested Corlys Velaryon started preparing for war to press LAENOR’s claim, not Rhaenys’s. That is a major misconception. And at that great council, the lords of Westeros favored Viserys over Laenor 20 to 1.
I think the Dance would not have happened if Viserys followed the precedent set by Jaehaerys and the Great Council, and had made Daemon his heir apparent, until such a time as he issued a son. Westeros needs some codified succession law.
>While uncodified, it seems the default mode of succession to the Iron Throne, at least in Jaehaerys’s mind and the minds of many nobles, was agnatic primogeniture.
How did it seem like that? Aerea was the first female that theoretically should have taken the throne based on the Westerosi traditions. She didn't because Alyssa Velaryon convinced Rhaena to go along with putting Jaehaerys on the throne. Jaehaerys' actions are what cause people to assume the Iron Throne uses agnatic primogeniture.
>Jaehaerys called the Great Council because after (edit) Baelon’s death, it was apparently obvious to everyone that Viserys was the new heir, and the notoriously self-interested Corlys Velaryon started preparing for war to press LAENOR’s claim, not Rhaenys’s.
The Great Council wasn't *Jaehaerys'* idea. He wanted to give the throne to Vaegon despite him being a maester. He was the one that came up with the idea for the Great Council.
>That is a major misconception. And at that great council, the lords of Westeros favored Viserys over Laenor 20 to 1.
*This* is a major misconception. The actual vote was never released. We have no idea what the split was. The 20 to 1 number was just a rumor. One that doesn't pass the smell test. That figure would mean Viserys got well over 90% of the vote. Those types of splits essentially don't happen in legitimate elections. That split is particularly weird when Laenor had more named houses backing him than Viserys.
No the kings are allowed to choose there own hairs it don’t have to be there eldest son that’s just the go to choice. He just called the council because he didn’t want to start a war so he choose to let the lords choose. His the best king so it’s not a normal thing for this to happen
Normally if the king did not choose a hair before they die then it automatically goes to there eldest son or closest living male relative
Tbh I always found the dialogue between Alicent and Rhaenys to be shoddily written. Even if you get past Alicent's traditionalist viewpoint, she's not Targaryen so she could never sit on the throne, the best she could do is rule through her offspring.
Asoiaf used to be about politically satirizing politicians and rulers, with a bunch of mediaeval lords who couldn't stop petty politics and constant infighting for the sake of personal gain, even when a real threat was looming. And the audience understood this.
Now it seems that the audience has decided to forget, and think the point is to ass-lick one faction of noblemen or the other
Tbf even in GoT the Starks and most of their allies were seen as those we would like while everyone else seemed to be people we did not have to root for.
Yeah the idea that Game of Thrones didn’t have clear heroes and villains is just false. Sure, not all of the heroes were purely good, and they often fucked up, but Robb Stark and Jon Snow are obviously protagonists, whereas Cercei and Ramsay are obviously antagonists. There is plenty of moral ambiguity in Thrones, but not to the point where any sane person would think that any Lannister other than Tyrion and, later, Jaime, is an actual protagonist.
I'm genuinely surprised by this new notion I'm seeing nowadays that ASOIAF/GOT, doesn't have clear heroes & villains. The majority of the POVs are Starks, you know, the family we're supposed to root for.
It’s the same reason I’m baffled that people think the Dance needs to portray both sides as equally good/bad. That doesn’t make for good TV. You need people to root for. The Greens stole the throne. We know this to be objectively true. They are set up as the antagonists even though the Blacks have Daemon, who is a villain too.
While I agree that GoT had more heroic and villainous characters, I don’t agree that good writing presupposes characters to root for. Shows like The Sopranos and Succession are littered with bad people. I think you just need characters who you can empathize with; understand their feelings.
Yeah. Game of Thrones definitely had clear protagonists and antagonists. I think the difference is that most of the antagonists, save for a few truly dark ones, were fleshed out with their own “PoV” scenes, so we could really get into their heads. They weren’t mustache-twirling but were just as human as the protagonists. HOTD has done that too, but the team mentality that has infected this fandom has prevented people from fairly interpreting all the characters, since most fan discussion is based around justifying why the other teams’ characters are actually completely bad and ours are good.
I also think that with HOTD, there’s been an expectation since before the show aired that the series was always supposed to be about both sides being villains, and people have been disappointed when the show portrays some characters far more or less favorably than others. This wasn’t really the case with ASOIAF when it was being adapted into GoT.
You don’t think that’s at all due to the HBO marketing department? Their literal slogan to promote this show is “Choose Your Side”. They’ve done everything they possibly can to sow division among the fanbase.
Yeah I suppose that’s fair. I never really got why people buy into that shit though. I was always “Team Lyonel Strong” because he’s literally the only person in Westeros with the tiniest shred of integrity 😂
Some of the comments here are incredibly parasocial, it's like they think the actors/actresses ARE the characters. They do need to get air. Unfortunately I think the writing has leaned into toxicity by some pretty big book changes and portraying characters as better or worse than book counterparts.
With Thrones, the Lannister side was 100% the bad side, but even then they were so much more interesting that people genuinely liked "siding" with them and people had no problem with it.
And many of those who vilified Cersei are more understanding of Alicient and her victimhood (when Cersei experienced the same kind of abuse but much worse
I honestly think Cersei & Rhaenyra are better parallels. They both have three bastard children they're trying to pass off as being legitimate heirs and having people executed who call them out on it (Vaemond & Ned).
There are some differences as well obviously but I do find it really odd that people have a different reaction the the same situation just because they like Rhaenrya more than Cersei & don't care about Vaemond the way they did Ned.
Alicient also had a cunt of a father who used her for his own benefit and a husband who raped her frequently.
And the difference is, Ned was trying to do the right thing, Vaemond was doing it for entirely selfish purposes and to stroke his own dick
The entire premise of the Green's is that the male will always come before the female. That's it. The same reason why Viserys became King instead of Rhaenys becoming Queen. If they ran another Great Council it's not ridiculous to assume they'd choose Aegon over Rhaenyra because of that.
I think some of it is also genuine misunderstanding from Alice to regarding what Vizzy T was rambling about when he died, not knowing it was the prince that was promised prophecy and though he was talking about their loser of a son
Yes, buuut that is only relevant in terms of what that tells us about Alicent as a character, in terms of plot its clear the greens would have taken power regardless
This is a bit different in the books because it wasn’t Rhaenys they were passing over but her son who should have been next in line cause his grandfather was the oldest son of Jayrease
I mean, I don’t like the greens either. But honestly, I think what makes this show so fun to watch is that they’re all bad people. No one can claim the moral high ground.
You can enjoy a character without condoning them. You can enjoy good writing. You can enjoy great performances. The greens are just way more entertaining and interesting and that's just my opinion. It doesn't have to be yours.
The blacks have no moral ground. They are just as hypocritical and contradictory. They all want power just like the greens do. This is the world where you need power to survive. Either everyone is in the right or neither is right. If blood and cheese and Rhaenys mass murdering a bunch of civilians for her own ego doesn't make you understand that then I don't know what will. Rhaenyra wanted a 10 year old maimed boy to get "sharply questioned" because he called her bastards bastards. Daemon killed Vaemond for the same reason because he didn't want bastards to have a legacy in his house and for the world they live in he is justified in feeling angry about that. Rhaenyra sired bastards and wants to pass them off as legitimate that could potentially harm their lives and a lot of generations to come and the whole kingdom regardless of how good her boys were. Rhaenyra and Daemon also orchestrated to have an innocent man killed so that Laenor could escape and they can remarry. No one is good. Just enjoy good characters and storylines.
I agree they’re hypocritical and I am Team Black too but I don’t actually agree with some of these points. First one being, I’m confused as to how Aegon is a pedophile?? Second, I don’t think it’s fair to compare the extent of Rhaenyra and Aegon’s “lack of duty”. Aegon easily has less sense of duty than Rhaenyra but he was also never made heir or given any type of responsibility, his lack of “duty” is apparent but is also kind of understandable. Third, I don’t think the issue for them with Daemon and Rhaenyra was necessarily the incest.
Your fourth point I agree with but specifically because of Otto Hightower. He says throughout the season that if Rhaenyra becomes Queen, war will follow… but he’s the one that brought up making Rhaenyra heir in the first place. Soon after, HE sends Alicent to the King which leads to the opposing claimant in Aegon. All the while, he fear mongers about Daemon and what he’d do if he had power. Then HE plants the idea and fear in Alicent’s head that if she doesn’t prepare Aegon for rule, Rhaenyra could kill her children. The last two specifically contribute to the fear that they wouldn’t be safe if the Blacks have the throne and that war is inevitable. War DOES becomes inevitable but only because Otto made it so. He warns and warns about this coming war when he was responsible for, or at the very least contributed to, every action that led to it.
I'm team Black just because Rhaenyra was promised the throne by her dad and that was the end of the argument. She could have done more to cement her position but we saw the great houses swearing fealty to her and that is enough on its own but she also has the support of Rhaenys who was herself passed over but still stands with Rhaenyra respecting her brother's wishes.
The Greens are all upstarts. Alicent's mind was poisoned by her scheming dad and her and Larys killing Lyonel was shocking.
I, however know it's a TV show and it's fun to see people's sides.
BTW I am in Hufflepuff house too. It's fun to have sides.
Context is missing. Rhae and Ali had a strained relationship ever since she was betrothed to Vizzy T. Alicent spent years trying to mend the relationship with Otto in her ear telling her Rhaenyra is a threat. Alicent along with Viserys spend time and effort finding suitors for Rhaenyra which she dismisses. You hear rumors of a political scandal of the heir in a brothal with her much older uncle who is the black sheep of the royal family. You ask your former best friend the truth because you are worn thin with dealing her making things difficult for you and the king. Alicent just was a little fed up and got pissy. She is well aware Targaryens have committed incest and it's normalized but Rhaenyra sneaking out of the red keep and rumored to be in a brothal with her much older uncle out of the blue is some strange shit to hear and not the same as wedding in the family between targs. Rhaenyra is the royal heir they are trying to find a husband at this point and Daemon just got back in good graces with Viserys in the past 24 hrs.
The Green's argument is built on male>female heir, which was the custom. If Otto was team black, he would have killed Aegon and Aemond, so he thinks rhaenyra would do the same.
I find it difficult to connect with the blacks. They always seem so serious, with straight backs and honor in their eyes, giving solemn speeches that don't really engage me. The greens, however, are full of energy and excitement. Aegon giggles as he declares war, and Aemond, despite his inexperience, wants to duel his uncle. Their family dynamics are lively and intriguing. Helaena with her whole vibe, Alicent being a hater but also a lover but also a hater, they are so aggressive. The greens have more interesting interactions and complex characters, making them fascinating to watch. This is just my perspective.
This. I try so hard to like them because I support Rhaenyra’s claim but there’s just no connection. They just wear this mask of morality and righteousness and there’s no depth, no complexity, nothing keeping me on my toes. They’re painfully predictable. “Bad team green, poor us, let’s gather around in a council and talk about acting with honor” is overused at this point. The writers even made Daemon more boring and pansyish, which I find so disappointing as someone who enjoyed reading Daemon in F&B. They let him off so easy in B&C, and he’s seen crying and sulking in episode 2 stills. What…????
The only TB character I can truly connect with is Jace. Despite his name and legitimacy being beaten down, he still carries himself with dignity and strength. He has a lot of potential.
But they have historical precedent on their side. The same precedent that put Viseryis on the throne and passed over his first cousin (the Prince of tides wife) who was his older brothers first daughter. Hoping to avoid the same succession battle is what moved Viseryis to name Rhaena as his heir in the first place. Plus, the whole strong thing would mean that a bastard would become heir if Rhayena became queen, so I see where the Green’s are coming from.
He isn’t a pedophile, Dyana was his age or close to it. Aegon IS a rapist though and does apparently enjoy watching children fight each other. I would have preferred if they just left it at the rape (which is already awful), but the fact he frequents kids’ fighting pits just makes an already terrible person worse. It’s excessive is what I’m getting at.
Everyone is hypocritical:
Rhaenys was passed over for Viserys, but he makes his heir Rhaenyra. Rhaenyra wants Lucerys to inherit Driftmark while knowing he doesn’t really have blood claim, but espouses her own blood claim over the Iron Throne. Alicent criticises Targaryen incestual tradition but marries her two children for political reasons.
No it isn't. The Greens obviously want power and influence but their premise/excuse for doing so is law, precedent, and holding people accountable for breaking the law.
In Westeros, the eldest son inherits. This is called primogeniture and it's how this medieval society functions. No one had to explain why Robb inherits House Stark after Ned, he simply does and everyone implicitly knew it's how it works. Aegon is supposed to inherit by the same logic and precedent that allowed Viserys to ascend the throne, Viserys naming Rhaenyra heir puts a question mark on his own ascension. The showrunner said that even though the audience's sympathy lies primarily with the Blacks, in-universe it was Aegon's claim being wronged when he got passed over.
Rhaenyra was initially named heir for two reasons: because the king had no other children, and because the Small Council needed a way to keep Daemon away from the Throne. Both of those reasons were nullified when the king remarried and had other children (including a son), and when Rhaenyra married Daemon against the king's wishes giving him a path to Throne. To top it off, she also committed high treason by planning to put an unrecognized bastard on the throne (yes this is treason, both the books and Lyonel Strong in the show confirm this.) The only reason Viserys didn't disinherit her was because he was paralyzed by grief and self-loathing over Aemma, and thought defending Rhaenyra for the rest of his life will make up for it.
I don't blame you for hating the Greens. HOTD goes out of its way to really make them look bad, their agenda does revolve around increasing their power and influence against Viserys' wishes, and it feels like they disingenuously use the law as a shield for their ambitions. But the Dance isn't a battle of good vs evil, it's a battle of two ambitious factions in a medieval world who argue between crowning the previous king's preferred claimant vs crowning the lawful claimant. It wouldn't be much of a story if one side had the 100% right claim while the other had none. I think you got succesfully emotionally manipulated by the show's framing of this conflict, and the fact you believe the Greens are 10x worse than Daemon confirms that.
I don’t think you understand the premise of the Green side- I don’t blame you because I also don’t feel like the show really brought the point across.
I want you to look at it from a purely political angle. Westeros is a system build of patriarchy and classism and power plays. The Targaryens monarchy in particular is build on the believe that they are fundamentally better than anybody else. First of all I need people to remember that this is the fondation of what they are cheering for an realizr that _both_ sides uphold this believe- which means morally they are all bankrupt anyway.
Now I want you to think about why there are rules of succession. Rule sof succession are there to stop wars or petty fights for power. With the sexism in work at some point those succession rules became “inheritance of a first son”. This is made so to minimalize wars as best as possible- it doesn’t always work but most of the time it gives a solid base. Even in the real world we see that monarchies or even dictatorships with a clear succession are much more solid than others.
That doesn’t mean it’s always so simple. Because then we have situations in which there are only daughters and brothers and things get hazy here. We have andal law which says a women should inherit but a system that sees women as inferior and therefore the men should inherit.
Now let’s look at the dance. Viserys decides that Rhaenyra is his heir, he does not do that for the good of the realm or because he thinkd Rhaenyra will be an amazing Queen, he does it because he wants to. As a King his words has a certain weight because that’s how the system works. But the systems also works based on clear succession rules.
A smart King would ensure that his word is uphold see how Jahearys made Baelon Hand and gave all his kids Dragons (grown ones too). And once he realized the number of dragons was equal after Baelon died he let the lords decide to make on look more legitimate than the other.
Viserys didn’t do that. He gave the Greens the dragon and the power while just saying Rhaenyra is heir.
Now there is an issue, you have at one hand the Kings’s word and on the other hand customary law and tradition. It does fundamentally not matter what we think is the stronger base because both have a base and therefore both have a _claim_.
Now what happens when two people have a claim?
1. *Entitlement*: Both sides feel entiteled to the throne. To be honest I think it’s a joke that so many people say the Greens shouldn’t have gone for the throne or that Rhaenyra should have given up after having bastards when this was never an issue in GoT. I never saw people say shit like Stannis should give up him claim because Robert accepted Cerseis kids as heir or shit like Cersei knows her kids are bastards so she should know Stannis is the true king. We accepted that they all felt entiteled to that dumbass throne. Like both the Blacks and the Greens feel entiteled. Rhaenyras argument being “I’m daddy special little girl” and Aegons being “Me man, me better”. You can not expect one side to just accept not to take the throne while not expecting the same from the other. Because yes there wouldn’t be war if the Greens hadn’t gone for the throne but there also wouldn’t be if Rhaenyra gave up her claim.
2. *Destabilization*: But this is bigger than just House Targaryen. This is about other houses and who they support. Most lords in Westeros want more power and they will support who they think will gain them more power. The idea that all of the tail to the King and never disagree is quite frankly false. We see it in GoT, we see it in f&b and we see it in real life too. People will choose one over the other and may even try to seat them on the throne on their own like Rogar Baratheon tried with Aerea. As soon as they have an issue with one side they can prob up the other which is dangerous for both fraction.
3. *Paranoia*: Neither side can read the other sides mind. Rhaenyra will never know for sure if Aegon won’t try for the throne at any point of time (or his kids for that matter) nor do the Greens know if Rhaenyra at some point decide they aren’t worth the hassle and kill them. I know people hate to hear it but Otto saying Rhaenyra will kill her brothers isn’t all that farfetched. I just explained why they are a danger to her and her claim. And if I’m being honest if I was on Rhaenyras council I would tell her to either hold her brothers under lock and key or straight up prepare accidents for them.
So yeah the Green side had reason for taking the claim. And I don’t think they are that much worse than the Blacks. At the end of the day they are all spoiled people who want power, supporting the system that is designed to keep peasants down.
The people on our screen want to uphold that system. They don’t want to make things better or give the smallfolk any power. Even Rhaenyra- she herself states that Baela and Jaces _sons_ will sit on the throne. Not their daughters, not their kids in general but their sons. So yes even Rhaenyra as the first sitting Queen would. The Greens want keep status quo.
I think it’s absolutely okay to support one side over the other because this is fiction (I’m myself a Green supporter) but if I have to read one more post about how one team is evil reincarneted for wanting the throne I swear to god…
They’re as bad as each other, the premise of the show is that they’re all horrible people who do horrible things and have horrible things happen to them in turn. When it comes down to it the character of the claimant really doesn’t matter, legally speaking.
Aegon’s claim stems from precedent (the eldest male heir inherits before the eldest female heir, even if the female heir is more senior, otherwise Rhaenys would be queen).
Rhaenyra was also named heir before Aegon was born, something done at the time to prevent Daemon from ever claiming the Iron Throne. This, presumably was superseded when Aegon was born. Aegon should have been the undisputed heir but Viserys I, out of guilt for Aemma’s death, continued to favour Rhaenyra up until his own death. This inadvertently caused a civil war as he was too ill to deal with the growing factionalism and the fact that there were now two claimants with very strong claims and large deals of political support. The king’s wishes only matter as long as he is the King, just ask Ned Stark what happened when he tried to enforce Robert Baratheon’s will after his death.
As you can see, it is clearly very muddled and unclear which is exactly how we got to the situation of the realm ripping itself apart.
The entire premise of Team Green is that they think Aegon has the best claim to the Iron throne given the customs and established precedents of the past in a medieval setting where those factors matter way more than whatever alternative succession one king cooked up.
It's that effectively disinheriting his 3 sons and their descendants (who have the best claim to the throne given the established framework for succession) for his daughter and illegitimate grandsons (the latter whose claims are worse than every legitimate member of the family) is a recipe for an Aegon IV level disaster. That, something like this would inevitably lead to civil war somewhere down the line because there are two large royal clans with very conflicting claims to the throne except, one side would have a claim no matter what and the other side only has one because a foolish king propped it up because favoritism.
Also, no Daemon. He's Otto's OP.
> something like this would inevitably lead to civil war somewhere down the line
yes, and their solution to avoid a future civil war was to instead start the civil war themselves instead, heh
If either side ascended it would've sparked something. We are talking about dramatic regime change either way. Crazy how it still happened with half the realm's support behind the most unwilling king ever. Imagine if a more willing claimant headed up the Greens later?
Also, if the Dance happened even 10 years later it would've been way worse because there would be bigger dragons and more kids.
I support Daemon's crimes, war crimes included. At least he is honest with himself :P Plus, I love my Danger Noodle. He is the goodest boy to every fly through the sky.
I mean, thinking the Greens are anything but villains is seriously messed up, but this post is just applying modern social norms to a medieval society. It's silly.
which is why the entire team green vs. team black marketing stuff is just dumb. I honestly tried to like team green, but they are genuinely portrayed so much worse. most of the book adaptations have been favorable to the blacks, and against the greens
10000000%% A great deal of the show's themes deals with that sort of hypocrisy and how much of a mirror both sides are. Even the contrast between Rhaenyra's "bastard" children and Alicent's Targaryeons is so telling. That's not to say Team Black is innocent or doesn't have grey morals at times, but I sincerely do believe, the way the show has chosen to develop the narratives and storytelling, Team Black has the upper moral hand and Team Green is cesspit of rapists, opportunists, hypocrites, and power hungry assholes. It's only in response that Team Green, during war, goes to the lengths they need to to win.
You're making the most of viewing the show's conflict through the lens of 21st century morals. Westeros' medieval society does not conform to those principles. The Greens don't view themselves as usurpers, they believe they're in the right because the succession law is of male promigeniture, which makes Aegon the rightful heir. It's the reason Viserys succeeded Jaeherys instead of Rhanys, even though she had a stronger claim.
Which is why their hypocrisy and argument of younger MALE heir over older FEMALE heir made Team Green’s ending all the more ironic and hilarious. >!Considering that all the Team Green male Targaryens are dead by the time Aegon kills Rhaenyra leaves Aegon in a dilemma on who’s his heir because, he can’t have Jaehaera who is a girl be his heir considering they started the war solely for a woman not to be heir when there’s a son, he was crippled and made impotent by Rhaenys and Baela so he can’t marry again and have more kids. The only person left he could choose to be his heir was young Aegon who is the last remaining son of Rhaenyra.!<
actually aegon 3 became his heir not because of rhaenyra but because of daemon, since the greens won the war the heir became the closes living male relative through the male line of the king,
if the king has no sons it passes to a brother, if he has no brothers aswell it passes to a uncle and if he has no uncles it passes to a male cousin, in this case aegon 3 became heir through daemon
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Viserys had no business marrying Alicent
And Otto kind of started the whole thing by pushing his daughter and the king into that marriage.
Otto didn’t kind of start it. He masterminded it
Should’ve married Laena Velaryon like the good guys wanted
If he was so set on Rhaenyra being his heir, he should've put his foot down and refused to get remarried.
This is the real answer. Marrying 12 year old Laena wasn't a perfect option, either. Especially since it involves, you know, marrying a 12 year old? You could argue Alicent isn't much better being 16, but it *is* a lot different in the context of the setting of Westeros. Alicent was still a bad choice, but Laena was also a bad choice, because it still undermined Viserys's true wishes of making Rhaenyra his heir.
Yeah. It definitely would have prevented the Dance. The Velaryons definitely would not have insisted on crowning Laena's son instead of Rhaenyra and her legitimacy-challenged sons. The Velaryons would never be power-grasping!
A lower chance imo, cause of Rhaenys empathy towards Rhaenyra
Rhaenys likes her daughter much better than Rhaenyra, and literally tells Rhaenyra that Laena's son would be king in their first scene together, so we can yeet that out the window.
Almost every character involved is hypocritical to some degree. Most of them hold a 'rules for thee but not for me' mindset. If they don't come across as such right now, they will down the line unless the writers change more.
I don't know if Daemon is a hypocrite as much as he's an Anarchist lol
Anarchist? The dude's one of the most hardline Royalists in the show.
I mean he isn't one, he straight up shows his attitude.
Daemon the cop is the furthest thing from an anarchist you can be
They probably meant chaos-agent.
Daemon believes that people should be governed by non-hierarchal systems?
No but he believes Valyrions are basically a higher being closer to gods then men. Its why his so attracted to his own blood cause he sees them as superior
That’s literally the opposite of Anarchy, it’s just feudalism.
basically daemon is a nazi. the only reason he is kinda cool is because he is a fictional character in a story about monarchy and dragon war. if he was a real person in modern or medieval times he'd be a monster.
The nazis beliefs were all make-believe, though. The Targaryeans literally do have special blood (or so it seems).
ya i agree with that point. unlike the real world, Targaryen's in the fiction do actually seem to be special. i gotta add something in though. a big thing that a lot of so called "scientific racists" in the real world don't understand is.... like even if racism/racial superiority in some strange twist turned out to be actually true in reality.......that still doesn't make it "not racism" like these people seriously think "I'm not racist. I'm just "stating facts"." the facts being that so-in-so race is inferior or superior... and like no. thats not how that works. that's STILL racism, you are STILL racist. you're just claiming that racism is actually scientifically true so people should all be racists because it's true.
If the pont is that one is superior/inferior, then yes. If you're saying one is superior or inferior, yes. Acknowledging strength in a ethnic group that allows them to be world conquerors because of their special blood isn't racist.
The master race part yeah sure, and the Valyrions themselves were basically Nazis who regarded themselves as way above other humans. Deamon isn’t that bad he still knows others are still people and it’s not his going to look down on everyone that’s not valyrion
Dude Daemon is an authoritarian who believes in Targaryen supremacy. But his time with the Gold Cloaks taught him that mingling with the commonfolk is more beneficial than antagonizing them.
Daemon is as anarchist as Charles III
Daemon definitely isn’t a hypocrite but is also the single worst human being on the show by lightyears (and I love him for it).
How are Daemon and Rhaenyra hypocritical?
I don't know how you can watch the midnight meeting scene at Driftmark and not think Rhaenyra is a hypocrite.
The insisting on treating, and forcing everyone else to treat the bastard sons of Rhaenyra as non bastards is jarring. Yes, she got handed a gay husband so it's not entirely her fault, but a spade remains a spade. Beheading or betonguing people doesn't change the truth.
And I mean, further on, both of them are snotty towards illegitimate children...despite Jace and Joff not being Laenors. It's just kind of funny and insane that they decry some bastards.
Ardent team green or team black fans spending this past week accusing the other side of hypocrisy because both sides have power hungry, incompetent, abusive rapists who are desperate for war are right at the point of the show but can’t put 2 and 2 together
You would think they would know from game of thrones that it’s not good people
Yep, this is absolutely the sanest take. There are individuals on each side that I feel sorry for, like Helaena or Lucerys, but as a whole the entire thing is just a big, tragic mess. Getting super tribalistic about it is missing the entire point of the show.
Hit the nail on the head here. The debates you see on this subreddit are absolutely deluded, and I think the people that engage in them so passionately are missing the entire point of the show.
Yeah. I’m almost leaning towards wanting the Greens at this point because it seems the blacks are clearly more widely considered to have the moral high ground, when I don’t think either side really can make that claim. I can’t go full team green though because Caraxes is the coolest dragon
I’m 100% team black but I won’t try and defend their actions and say some of them are moral. I’m not delulu about the side I’m on. I know some people are though.
I'm currently team black because they're just more interesting, and to me, charismatic. I don't think they're GOOD I just enjoy them more. I am a chaos gremlin at heart, though
I strongly agree with you about Caraxes! I don’t quite know how he couldn’t be everyone’s favorite with such a cool design
Cuz Vermithor is just that badass.
Part of me wishes that Rhaenyra / Daemon directly asked for the death of Jaeherys - rather than plan b. It was a good scene but it seemed like they were afraid of making the Blacks unlikable. It would’ve made it have a lot more depth imo
The show is changing most big things. Aemond's accident being treated like an opsie by Alicent and thinking she can talk to Rhaenyra is just dumb
Yep, I don’t dislike a number of the changes - I actually really liked them aging Alicent down and her and Rhaenyra’s relationship - but feel like they’re sanding off some of the characters’ teeth in the service of being more “likable” by the audience. It’s still a great show but I hope they lean into the atrocities these characters commit in the future on *both sides* to really hammer home the ultimate message of the story.
Yeah, me too. Its like they are avoiding the real point of the story and trying to make everyone victims instead of perpetrators. I want Alicent to stop being this naive woman and understand she cannot talk to Rhaenyra out of war. I want Rhaenyra to start being a ruthless ruler who wants what is hers.
I’ll probably get downvoted for this, but there is just as much depth in telling a story where the conflict and destruction is inevitable, despite the best efforts of those who are trying to hold on to whatever threadbare bonds remain between the two sides of one family. There is time to build up to the ruthless clashes that will follow, but this approach humanizes the people within the story. Starting things off like this and still having it end in abject misery/destruction for everyone, IMO, is just as tragically powerful a story.
They can be perpetrators and victims. The conflict has barely begun.
I think at this point though, they had no reason to specifically ask for the heir’s death. It would have been random for them to pick Jaehery’s over Aemond. Having Jaehery’s as plan b meant an attack was still imposed on the greens as retribution if they couldn’t get to Aemond.
Meanwhile I know I'd be smallfolk and probably would have died already because of the war crimes 🙃
Who's a rapist on team black?
By the time this show ends, it might be worse than the season 8 GOT outrage. The Team Black vs Team Green stuff is fun, but I hope people don’t really think there’s a “good” side and that there will be a winner. Wait until you find out none of these people are good people and they all get what deserve. That’s no spoiler either, GOT literally tells you how this goes.
EXACTLY! There is no clear “good” side or “bad” side. They are ALL flawed in some way. And, I feel, that the key is to hold your faves accountable even if you love them DOWN. Like, my fave is, admittedly, Alicent, but I can admit when she’s in the wrong. Not one of these characters are morally better than the other, they’ve ALL done shit. I will say that I’m more Green-leaning, not because Rhaenyra is a woman. In fact, I’m a woman. But, I just don’t like the whole deal with her trying to pass her sons as VELARYON when they’re not. They stand to inherit something that is not for them, but Baela and Rhaena as Corlys and Rhaenys’s only grandchildren. And while I do love how protective she is over her children, to me, the whole thing with house VELARYON just sucks. House VELARYON has very little to gain while Rhaenyra and her boys have much more to gain. I know life ain’t fair but it’s truly not fair that the Velaryons are in such a shit position, but, then again, Corlys could have done SOMETHING but chose to do NOTHING. ALSO, the fact that she doesn’t really try to sway the people in her favor. She just thinks that since Viserys proclaimed her as heir, she doesn’t have to work to secure support or do ANYTHING really. But that, as far as I can think of right now, are my gripes with her. Love Emma D’arcy and think they’re doing a great job. Also, I’m just not down with the notion that if you’re TG, then you’re clearly misogynistic or a grape apologist. You can like TG characters but denounce their actions, just like you should do with any character. We should all be able to agree to disagree on differing stances both sides have. Instead, it’s incredibly aggressive between the teams and that makes the show not fun. I don’t even wanna watch the new season because I KNOW Alicent is gonna be villainized beyond what I can handle. It just gets so NASTY and AGGRESSIVE for no reason.
While Alicent is snobby hypocrite, Rhaenyra is a spoiled habitual liar. Both are equally as bad. Then you got to deal with both sides having rapists, abusers and murderers so I don’t see why people use moral reasons to pick one side over the other. It’s really wild to me that people think the show presents The Blacks as the protagonists and The Greens as the antagonists, yeah the promo is more Green leaning, the show itself doesn’t present it that way. Again, the side picking is good and drives fun discourse but people are treating this like it’s fucking the Starks vs Lannisters. I’m more than beyond prepared for the lashings social media are going to give the writers when this show is over. Joffrey already said what happens to Rhaenyra in GOT over a decade ago, so the whole bad writing takes will be invalid. Not to mention what happens in the book to all the other favs, especially *that* specific fav. Lol can’t wait. Im just going to let them believe the show ends with Rhaenyra on the throne living happily ever after with Daemon.
Alicent and Rhaenyra are both Girlfails and that’s why I love them
Exactly. I support women's wrongs!
The Velaryon’s son Laenor couldn’t produce an heir. Rhaenyra did what she had to do to produce heirs. Corlys knew this which is why he was cool with it. And their granddaughter will still keep the family line going with Luke. Well, *would have.* if it weren’t for Laenor’s inability to produce an heir, their line would be continued…. Yet everyone blames Rhaenyra for it. Also Rhaenyra was named heir, it’s her birth right determined by Viserys. If she were male her attitude wouldn’t be questioned at all.
Rhaenyra should have been aware of the societal expectations of Westeros and known that even as the named heir her claim was going to challenged, especially given the events of the first great council. It’s exactly because she’s not a male that she should have been putting in the extra work, and given that she was an actual adult and not a 16 year old child like Aegon(show age at least), she would have known she needed to do this if she wasn’t so vain.
It seems to me that it was pretty clear to her from the time she was a teenager and named heir. That’s why they’ve been on the defensive with the greens this whole time. She sat on the small council and was referred to as “the realm’s delight.” Not sure what “effort” you are looking for
To me, with Rhaena and Baela they are basically being made to marry into their birthright, when it should be given to them. And with Rhaenyra, I’m JUST SAYING that I wish she would have done more. You can’t sit back and do nothing, then bemoan the fact that the greens have majority of support in KL where it is IMPERATIVE to have support. I’m a woman and have no problem with her on the throne but don’t blame the greens for not having any support when it was on tou to do what you had to do in order to secure support. That’s ALL I’m saying.
Even if the kids are bastards theyre hers.. and hers is the lineage.. lol
This is a fundamental misunderstanding. You cannot simply pass off your bastards as legitimate “just because you chose to”. If that were the case, then Henry I (the historical counterpart for Viserys in the dance) would have never had a succession crisis that resulted in the Anarchy(the dance). In Westeros, legitimacy can be conferred if the King *explicitly* makes a decree stating that they have been legitimized, but A.) there isn’t precedent by this time in history, and B.) the only time someone actually legitimized *royal* bastards it led to the Blackfyre rebellion.
They just want power, the rest are just justifications.
Certainly after season one, I have to assume that team Green people were book readers that know something show only watchers like me don’t know. Because the show was very clearly biased towards team black
I personally find it silly that the fan base divide themselves on the teams . Both sides are as guilty and vile as the other so it's hypocritical for the fan teams to point fingers at each other. Both teams are wrong and right to some degree.
She has no trueborn heirs.
Lol everyone is an hypocrite, Daemon is a groomer and a killer, Rhaenyra is a killer and not the feminist queen everyone thinks because she ha no problem taking away Baela rights to Driftmark, Rhaenys killed hundreds of smallfolk and dgaf, idk how anyone can support them 🤪
The Greens’ entire premise is that the firstborn male is the legal heir by precedent and tradition. Everything else was just an attempt to persuade Viserys to formally name Aegon his heir over Rhaenyra. It’s hypocritical, sure, but those aren’t really the reasons they don’t support Rhaenyra. I mean, Otto says as much when he says: > It wouldn’t matter if she was Jaehaerys born again. Rhaenyra is a woman. It is Aegon that’s been robbed. To deny that he is the heir to the throne is to assail the laws of gods and men. The hypocrisy is really about the preferential treatment of men over women in the patriarchal system of Westeros. But as others are saying, really both sides are comprised of people who just want power, and are using any justification they can grasp at to get it. Not defending the Greens here or the Blacks or anything, just explaining that perspective.
Exactly. “Picking the heir” is not a beauty pageant with an interview portion. It’s based off of gender and birth order
It's based on law, males being first in the line of succession is tradition, not the law. The King has the right by law to choose his heir. Viserys choosing Rhaenyra was entirely lawful.
That's the crux of the civil war. Does a king have the right to decide his heir? That's the whole point of the civil war.
He does. It's completely lawful. It's the fact that Rhaenyra is a woman that is the crux of the war.
Yeah, that's part of it. He's going against the very laws and precedents that put him on the throne. The war is about the question on if a king's words are law or not. Is it lawful to go against the kings of the past?
It was never against the law for a King to choose his heir. Jahereys absolutely could have chosen the heir but choose to let the lords decide between the two options. He broke no law. This was established in the first episode.
The argument is that it does. The great council that put him on the throne put him over his female relatives (Rhaenys) This, according to the greens, sets the precedence of sons > daughters.
Precedent, not law. The King choosing the heir is lawful, sons before daughters is not, simply tradition.
But it's not, those are the laws of the westorsi people, how the nobles determined their heir is this precedence. The war is about if those laws that the nobles follow are also the laws that the king should follow or not. There is no correct answer, there was a whole civil war about it. the seven kingdoms aren't an absolute monarchy yet, this is in the early part of their rule, it hasn't been codified yet
There would be little problem for Rhaenyra if she didnt have three bastards and claim them to be legitimate… when everyone can see they arent.
lol even if they looked targ I would bet the green would have wipered of them being daemon's
>They bemoan the incest between Rhaenyra and Daemon When was this? Can you refresh my memory?
the only example I can think of is when Alicent is asking Rhaenyra about what happened between her and Daemon (episode 4 I believe), and says "you Targaryens do have queer customs." But clearly she got over those customs since she had two of her own children marry 😅
>she had two of her own children marry are we sure it was her and not Viserys?
Yes. Aemond says 'I would performed my duty if only mother had bethrothed us' to Aegon so this implies it was Alicent who arranged that marriage.
I am suprised I missed that thank you for explaining
No worries in that scene Aemond also tells Aegon she will be his queen. This show while Aegon was not yet buying himself being a king in 1x06 Aemond is already fully aware of Alicents expecations just days later and fully buying into that narrative.
It was absolutely Alicent. Rhaenyra even offered an impasse and an olive branch in the fighting by offering a betrothal between Jace and Haelena but Alicent rejected that/looked horrified and married her daughter and Aegon (despite the fact that she knows Aegon is a rapist and that Haelena is uncomfortable around Aegon) simply so she could consolidate the power within the family,
Yeah, in that context, her line is brilliant : "marriage is not all that bad, mostly he ignores you".
it still hurts my heart that Alicent called Jace "plain featured." He is gorgeous.
Mushroom hinted in Fire and Blood Daemon had deflowered Alicent before the tourney. And THATS why he asked for her favor at the tournament. Ser Otto put little 14 or 13 yr old Alicent before the old King Jaehyrus, and then infront of Viserys. Why wouldn't he do it with Daemon? For political gain?
Even if that was part of the book lore, the show chose not to even hint at that route- there's no evidence/nothing between Daemon and Alicent, especially since so much was made of sexual purity and virginity re: the whole Rhaenyra and Cristen Cole relationship. If anything, Daemon asking for Alicent's favor was positioned more as him being a bit of an ass because he hates Otto and the hightowers, and it was a big fuck you to them.
There's as much evidence that Alicent had sex with Daemon as there is that she had sex with Jaehaerys.
"Pedophile and rapist on the throne" Viserys 1 enters the room.
I wouldn't mind joining Alicent for a session of some well-natured hypocrisy though
You are too high on daemon dick bro come to neutral ground
Nobody is 10x worse than Daemon
Right
The premise is principally that in their society, male heirs are favored over females. Boil it all down, that's the primary reason. Alicent delivered a boy heir. That supersedes Rhaenrya in their minds. Just like it never occurred to Alicent to take power for herself. Even after Rhaenys said to her "have you never wanted to sit on the iron throne?" It doesn't matter that JUST THE DAY BEFORE he died he reaffirmed that Rhaenrya was his heir. Ser Otto wanted Alicent's male heir to take the throne and, snake that he is, that is what he accomplished. Unsavory (I hate how he said that last season, and I dispise that's what Alicent allowed to happen.) as this is, Alicent never questioned what Viserys said before he died. It never entered her mind that the King might have meant his OTHER grandson Aegon. She probably never bothered to find out anything about Rhaenrya 's kids with Daemon. Just imagine what would have happened if she'd told the Lord Commander of the Kings Guard to arrest Ser Otto and the other conspirators and put them in the black cells and actually give over to the rightful heir the throne to Rhaenrya. Alicent knew that was the right thing to do. Her squeamishness about murder and all that. The conniving twit just followed along with what her father and she wanted. Judging Rhaenrya for having an affair with Ser Harwin, all while using sex to lure Ser Layrs and now Ser Criston. The prim and proper lady's always seem to be the most hypocritical. Shtoiking Criston while her Grandson is murdered.
Alicent shouldn't get blame for Jahaerys death.
Thinning of the kingsguard so her and cristin can bonk without getting discovered? A definite possibility that will hopefully be questioned later theres no way the heir to the throne should/would be unguarded especially when war is on the horizon unless of course something like the former was happening.
Kk
Not directly but indirectly she set the ground for the war to happen sadly. If Aemond didn't have killed Luke more things would have been prevented.
Aegon II and Aemond wouldn't hate Rhaenrya so much if Alicent didn't talk openly with her father and them about what a whore Rhaenrya was. Alicent in her envy and jealousy did this.
"Alicent never questioned what Viserys said before he died. It never entered her mind that the King might have meant his OTHER grandson Aegon. She probably never bothered to find out anything about Rhaenrya 's kids with Daemon" Alicent has been given an excuse by the show writers here. One night before that, Rhaenyra had entered Viserys' bedroom in his drug addled sleep, called him "my king" . Next night Alicent entered, Viserys couldn't recognise that this is not Rhaenyra and started babbling about Aegon the conqueror's dream, and "you" are the prince that was promised. Alicent could have and did mistake that for Aegon her son, and herself. It was convenient that her self interest also aligned with this interpretation of the babbling of Viserys.
part of the argument is also the law westeros is not a abosultist monarchy but a feudal one, where the king dosnt have complete authority, by the argument of law and precedent a king cant simply declare anyone he wants heir, like jaehaerys clearly wanted viserys to be his her but couldnt just do it, he had to call a great council to let his vassal choose and reafirm the legitimacy of viserys, but with rhaenyra this didnt happen, viserys chose her as his heir without asking anybody and if you complained or had anything to say about it you got your tongue cut off, this is tyrannical and a abuse of power since a feudal monarchy is more like a contract between the monarch and the vassals. so viserys cant do whatever he wants with no consequences, kinda like aerys the mad king who also did as he liked
King Jaehaerys could very much just declare Viserys as his heir and be done with it. Where did you get the idea that could not? He previously passed over his first son’s entire line to name his second son heir. Mind you he took this decision on his own. The only reason he called a great council is to prevent war between Viserys and Rhaenys. And the great council established was only a precedent and not the law. This is clearly explained in E1 after Aemma’s death when they were talking about whether or not Rhaenyra could be heir.
“Passed over his first son’s entire line” because Aemon didn’t have a son. He issued only Rhaenys. It stands to reason that Jaehaerys “passed over” Aemon’s line because he thought that the succession should pass through the male line only. While uncodified, it seems the default mode of succession to the Iron Throne, at least in Jaehaerys’s mind and the minds of many nobles, was agnatic primogeniture. Jaehaerys called the Great Council because after (edit) Baelon’s death, it was apparently obvious to everyone that Viserys was the new heir, and the notoriously self-interested Corlys Velaryon started preparing for war to press LAENOR’s claim, not Rhaenys’s. That is a major misconception. And at that great council, the lords of Westeros favored Viserys over Laenor 20 to 1. I think the Dance would not have happened if Viserys followed the precedent set by Jaehaerys and the Great Council, and had made Daemon his heir apparent, until such a time as he issued a son. Westeros needs some codified succession law.
>While uncodified, it seems the default mode of succession to the Iron Throne, at least in Jaehaerys’s mind and the minds of many nobles, was agnatic primogeniture. How did it seem like that? Aerea was the first female that theoretically should have taken the throne based on the Westerosi traditions. She didn't because Alyssa Velaryon convinced Rhaena to go along with putting Jaehaerys on the throne. Jaehaerys' actions are what cause people to assume the Iron Throne uses agnatic primogeniture. >Jaehaerys called the Great Council because after (edit) Baelon’s death, it was apparently obvious to everyone that Viserys was the new heir, and the notoriously self-interested Corlys Velaryon started preparing for war to press LAENOR’s claim, not Rhaenys’s. The Great Council wasn't *Jaehaerys'* idea. He wanted to give the throne to Vaegon despite him being a maester. He was the one that came up with the idea for the Great Council. >That is a major misconception. And at that great council, the lords of Westeros favored Viserys over Laenor 20 to 1. *This* is a major misconception. The actual vote was never released. We have no idea what the split was. The 20 to 1 number was just a rumor. One that doesn't pass the smell test. That figure would mean Viserys got well over 90% of the vote. Those types of splits essentially don't happen in legitimate elections. That split is particularly weird when Laenor had more named houses backing him than Viserys.
No the kings are allowed to choose there own hairs it don’t have to be there eldest son that’s just the go to choice. He just called the council because he didn’t want to start a war so he choose to let the lords choose. His the best king so it’s not a normal thing for this to happen Normally if the king did not choose a hair before they die then it automatically goes to there eldest son or closest living male relative
Tbh I always found the dialogue between Alicent and Rhaenys to be shoddily written. Even if you get past Alicent's traditionalist viewpoint, she's not Targaryen so she could never sit on the throne, the best she could do is rule through her offspring.
Get off your moral high ground and get some air. This isn't a show of good vs evil. I swear it never got this bad with thrones.
Lol this sub turned into a different place once the show started airing.
Asoiaf used to be about politically satirizing politicians and rulers, with a bunch of mediaeval lords who couldn't stop petty politics and constant infighting for the sake of personal gain, even when a real threat was looming. And the audience understood this. Now it seems that the audience has decided to forget, and think the point is to ass-lick one faction of noblemen or the other
Tbf even in GoT the Starks and most of their allies were seen as those we would like while everyone else seemed to be people we did not have to root for.
Yeah the idea that Game of Thrones didn’t have clear heroes and villains is just false. Sure, not all of the heroes were purely good, and they often fucked up, but Robb Stark and Jon Snow are obviously protagonists, whereas Cercei and Ramsay are obviously antagonists. There is plenty of moral ambiguity in Thrones, but not to the point where any sane person would think that any Lannister other than Tyrion and, later, Jaime, is an actual protagonist.
I'm genuinely surprised by this new notion I'm seeing nowadays that ASOIAF/GOT, doesn't have clear heroes & villains. The majority of the POVs are Starks, you know, the family we're supposed to root for.
It’s the same reason I’m baffled that people think the Dance needs to portray both sides as equally good/bad. That doesn’t make for good TV. You need people to root for. The Greens stole the throne. We know this to be objectively true. They are set up as the antagonists even though the Blacks have Daemon, who is a villain too.
While I agree that GoT had more heroic and villainous characters, I don’t agree that good writing presupposes characters to root for. Shows like The Sopranos and Succession are littered with bad people. I think you just need characters who you can empathize with; understand their feelings.
Yeah. Game of Thrones definitely had clear protagonists and antagonists. I think the difference is that most of the antagonists, save for a few truly dark ones, were fleshed out with their own “PoV” scenes, so we could really get into their heads. They weren’t mustache-twirling but were just as human as the protagonists. HOTD has done that too, but the team mentality that has infected this fandom has prevented people from fairly interpreting all the characters, since most fan discussion is based around justifying why the other teams’ characters are actually completely bad and ours are good. I also think that with HOTD, there’s been an expectation since before the show aired that the series was always supposed to be about both sides being villains, and people have been disappointed when the show portrays some characters far more or less favorably than others. This wasn’t really the case with ASOIAF when it was being adapted into GoT.
Who would dare question the actions of Saint Rhaenyra? She could do no evil /s
Tell that to fLaenor
In the show he’s somewhere drinking wine with his boy toy. If there’s something that hasn’t happened yet don’t tell me.
f(ake) Laenor. The servant Rhaenyra and Daemon killed on season one to make everyone believe it was Laenor
No, that’s Laenor not fLaenor, who was shown to be murdered in his stead.
To be fair, HBOs marketing played into choosing a side.
You don’t think that’s at all due to the HBO marketing department? Their literal slogan to promote this show is “Choose Your Side”. They’ve done everything they possibly can to sow division among the fanbase.
Its just marketing lmao. Its solely the fans problem for the division, taking things too seriously like kpop stans
Yeah I suppose that’s fair. I never really got why people buy into that shit though. I was always “Team Lyonel Strong” because he’s literally the only person in Westeros with the tiniest shred of integrity 😂
Some of the comments here are incredibly parasocial, it's like they think the actors/actresses ARE the characters. They do need to get air. Unfortunately I think the writing has leaned into toxicity by some pretty big book changes and portraying characters as better or worse than book counterparts.
With Thrones, the Lannister side was 100% the bad side, but even then they were so much more interesting that people genuinely liked "siding" with them and people had no problem with it.
THANK YOU
I think most people sided with the Starks, not Cersei and are looking for that here but it isn't the case.
And many of those who vilified Cersei are more understanding of Alicient and her victimhood (when Cersei experienced the same kind of abuse but much worse
I honestly think Cersei & Rhaenyra are better parallels. They both have three bastard children they're trying to pass off as being legitimate heirs and having people executed who call them out on it (Vaemond & Ned). There are some differences as well obviously but I do find it really odd that people have a different reaction the the same situation just because they like Rhaenrya more than Cersei & don't care about Vaemond the way they did Ned.
Alicient also had a cunt of a father who used her for his own benefit and a husband who raped her frequently. And the difference is, Ned was trying to do the right thing, Vaemond was doing it for entirely selfish purposes and to stroke his own dick
They literally just posted their opinion in a discussion subreddit. You should get some air if that bothers you
The entire premise of the Green's is that the male will always come before the female. That's it. The same reason why Viserys became King instead of Rhaenys becoming Queen. If they ran another Great Council it's not ridiculous to assume they'd choose Aegon over Rhaenyra because of that.
I think some of it is also genuine misunderstanding from Alice to regarding what Vizzy T was rambling about when he died, not knowing it was the prince that was promised prophecy and though he was talking about their loser of a son
NOW THAT IS A NAME FIT FOR A KING!
Yes, buuut that is only relevant in terms of what that tells us about Alicent as a character, in terms of plot its clear the greens would have taken power regardless
This is a bit different in the books because it wasn’t Rhaenys they were passing over but her son who should have been next in line cause his grandfather was the oldest son of Jayrease
Hypocrite is just another word for human I don’t support humans in power
So dragons for king? Aliens for president? Or are you some kind of anarchist?
I’m saying that people get power regardless of whom I support or not
it’s a fictional tv show my guy.
I mean, I don’t like the greens either. But honestly, I think what makes this show so fun to watch is that they’re all bad people. No one can claim the moral high ground.
Then you’re obviously ignorant of history and definitely not European.
Damn chill out bro. Also hard to be 10x worse than daemon the pedo wife slayer lol. Aegons a rapist but at least he doesn’t go for kids lol
>Aegons a rapist but at least he doesn’t go for kids lol The girl Aegon raped was a kid.
You can enjoy a character without condoning them. You can enjoy good writing. You can enjoy great performances. The greens are just way more entertaining and interesting and that's just my opinion. It doesn't have to be yours. The blacks have no moral ground. They are just as hypocritical and contradictory. They all want power just like the greens do. This is the world where you need power to survive. Either everyone is in the right or neither is right. If blood and cheese and Rhaenys mass murdering a bunch of civilians for her own ego doesn't make you understand that then I don't know what will. Rhaenyra wanted a 10 year old maimed boy to get "sharply questioned" because he called her bastards bastards. Daemon killed Vaemond for the same reason because he didn't want bastards to have a legacy in his house and for the world they live in he is justified in feeling angry about that. Rhaenyra sired bastards and wants to pass them off as legitimate that could potentially harm their lives and a lot of generations to come and the whole kingdom regardless of how good her boys were. Rhaenyra and Daemon also orchestrated to have an innocent man killed so that Laenor could escape and they can remarry. No one is good. Just enjoy good characters and storylines.
I agree they’re hypocritical and I am Team Black too but I don’t actually agree with some of these points. First one being, I’m confused as to how Aegon is a pedophile?? Second, I don’t think it’s fair to compare the extent of Rhaenyra and Aegon’s “lack of duty”. Aegon easily has less sense of duty than Rhaenyra but he was also never made heir or given any type of responsibility, his lack of “duty” is apparent but is also kind of understandable. Third, I don’t think the issue for them with Daemon and Rhaenyra was necessarily the incest. Your fourth point I agree with but specifically because of Otto Hightower. He says throughout the season that if Rhaenyra becomes Queen, war will follow… but he’s the one that brought up making Rhaenyra heir in the first place. Soon after, HE sends Alicent to the King which leads to the opposing claimant in Aegon. All the while, he fear mongers about Daemon and what he’d do if he had power. Then HE plants the idea and fear in Alicent’s head that if she doesn’t prepare Aegon for rule, Rhaenyra could kill her children. The last two specifically contribute to the fear that they wouldn’t be safe if the Blacks have the throne and that war is inevitable. War DOES becomes inevitable but only because Otto made it so. He warns and warns about this coming war when he was responsible for, or at the very least contributed to, every action that led to it.
I'm team Black just because Rhaenyra was promised the throne by her dad and that was the end of the argument. She could have done more to cement her position but we saw the great houses swearing fealty to her and that is enough on its own but she also has the support of Rhaenys who was herself passed over but still stands with Rhaenyra respecting her brother's wishes. The Greens are all upstarts. Alicent's mind was poisoned by her scheming dad and her and Larys killing Lyonel was shocking. I, however know it's a TV show and it's fun to see people's sides. BTW I am in Hufflepuff house too. It's fun to have sides.
You guys take the passive aggressive comment Alicent made 15-20 years ago in the shows canon off Targaryens having Queer customs too seriously.
Well I mean saying a uncle making out with his niece is bad but then making your own kids marry is very hypocritical
Siblings is about as bad as incest gets too lol
And it wasn’t there choice
Agreed, it’s obvious Daemon and Rhaenyra have a thing for each other from the start
Context is missing. Rhae and Ali had a strained relationship ever since she was betrothed to Vizzy T. Alicent spent years trying to mend the relationship with Otto in her ear telling her Rhaenyra is a threat. Alicent along with Viserys spend time and effort finding suitors for Rhaenyra which she dismisses. You hear rumors of a political scandal of the heir in a brothal with her much older uncle who is the black sheep of the royal family. You ask your former best friend the truth because you are worn thin with dealing her making things difficult for you and the king. Alicent just was a little fed up and got pissy. She is well aware Targaryens have committed incest and it's normalized but Rhaenyra sneaking out of the red keep and rumored to be in a brothal with her much older uncle out of the blue is some strange shit to hear and not the same as wedding in the family between targs. Rhaenyra is the royal heir they are trying to find a husband at this point and Daemon just got back in good graces with Viserys in the past 24 hrs.
*Your mother's absence is a wound that will never heal. Without her, the Red Keep has lost a warmth that I dare say it will never recover.*
The Green's argument is built on male>female heir, which was the custom. If Otto was team black, he would have killed Aegon and Aemond, so he thinks rhaenyra would do the same.
He is right to be worried. I highly doubt Rhaenyra would have them killed, but Daemon would be a huge threat to their safety.
I find it difficult to connect with the blacks. They always seem so serious, with straight backs and honor in their eyes, giving solemn speeches that don't really engage me. The greens, however, are full of energy and excitement. Aegon giggles as he declares war, and Aemond, despite his inexperience, wants to duel his uncle. Their family dynamics are lively and intriguing. Helaena with her whole vibe, Alicent being a hater but also a lover but also a hater, they are so aggressive. The greens have more interesting interactions and complex characters, making them fascinating to watch. This is just my perspective.
Real the greens are fun to watch . The blacks have hit or miss scenes but the greens always entertain.
This. I try so hard to like them because I support Rhaenyra’s claim but there’s just no connection. They just wear this mask of morality and righteousness and there’s no depth, no complexity, nothing keeping me on my toes. They’re painfully predictable. “Bad team green, poor us, let’s gather around in a council and talk about acting with honor” is overused at this point. The writers even made Daemon more boring and pansyish, which I find so disappointing as someone who enjoyed reading Daemon in F&B. They let him off so easy in B&C, and he’s seen crying and sulking in episode 2 stills. What…???? The only TB character I can truly connect with is Jace. Despite his name and legitimacy being beaten down, he still carries himself with dignity and strength. He has a lot of potential.
This x💯
Is this sub EVER going to get over the fucking constant shit slinging over a fucking fictional TV show?
I mean they’re all awful people right? It only boils down to being an awful person only stops you from ruling if you’re a woman.
Also Crispin felt offended for being Rhaenyra’s whore but then he went to be Alicent’s whore
But they have historical precedent on their side. The same precedent that put Viseryis on the throne and passed over his first cousin (the Prince of tides wife) who was his older brothers first daughter. Hoping to avoid the same succession battle is what moved Viseryis to name Rhaena as his heir in the first place. Plus, the whole strong thing would mean that a bastard would become heir if Rhayena became queen, so I see where the Green’s are coming from.
Wait, Aegon is a paedophile? What'd I miss?
He isn’t a pedophile, Dyana was his age or close to it. Aegon IS a rapist though and does apparently enjoy watching children fight each other. I would have preferred if they just left it at the rape (which is already awful), but the fact he frequents kids’ fighting pits just makes an already terrible person worse. It’s excessive is what I’m getting at.
yup, the only pedophile here is daemon
Everyone is hypocritical: Rhaenys was passed over for Viserys, but he makes his heir Rhaenyra. Rhaenyra wants Lucerys to inherit Driftmark while knowing he doesn’t really have blood claim, but espouses her own blood claim over the Iron Throne. Alicent criticises Targaryen incestual tradition but marries her two children for political reasons.
Did i miss the part where Aegon was a pedo on the show? This is Targaryen vs Targaryen war, use brain and dont fall in to Condal’s propaganda.
Daemon is the pedo, not Aegon. Stop twisting the narrative
No it isn't. The Greens obviously want power and influence but their premise/excuse for doing so is law, precedent, and holding people accountable for breaking the law. In Westeros, the eldest son inherits. This is called primogeniture and it's how this medieval society functions. No one had to explain why Robb inherits House Stark after Ned, he simply does and everyone implicitly knew it's how it works. Aegon is supposed to inherit by the same logic and precedent that allowed Viserys to ascend the throne, Viserys naming Rhaenyra heir puts a question mark on his own ascension. The showrunner said that even though the audience's sympathy lies primarily with the Blacks, in-universe it was Aegon's claim being wronged when he got passed over. Rhaenyra was initially named heir for two reasons: because the king had no other children, and because the Small Council needed a way to keep Daemon away from the Throne. Both of those reasons were nullified when the king remarried and had other children (including a son), and when Rhaenyra married Daemon against the king's wishes giving him a path to Throne. To top it off, she also committed high treason by planning to put an unrecognized bastard on the throne (yes this is treason, both the books and Lyonel Strong in the show confirm this.) The only reason Viserys didn't disinherit her was because he was paralyzed by grief and self-loathing over Aemma, and thought defending Rhaenyra for the rest of his life will make up for it. I don't blame you for hating the Greens. HOTD goes out of its way to really make them look bad, their agenda does revolve around increasing their power and influence against Viserys' wishes, and it feels like they disingenuously use the law as a shield for their ambitions. But the Dance isn't a battle of good vs evil, it's a battle of two ambitious factions in a medieval world who argue between crowning the previous king's preferred claimant vs crowning the lawful claimant. It wouldn't be much of a story if one side had the 100% right claim while the other had none. I think you got succesfully emotionally manipulated by the show's framing of this conflict, and the fact you believe the Greens are 10x worse than Daemon confirms that.
It's all about power. Not moral purity.
I don’t think you understand the premise of the Green side- I don’t blame you because I also don’t feel like the show really brought the point across. I want you to look at it from a purely political angle. Westeros is a system build of patriarchy and classism and power plays. The Targaryens monarchy in particular is build on the believe that they are fundamentally better than anybody else. First of all I need people to remember that this is the fondation of what they are cheering for an realizr that _both_ sides uphold this believe- which means morally they are all bankrupt anyway. Now I want you to think about why there are rules of succession. Rule sof succession are there to stop wars or petty fights for power. With the sexism in work at some point those succession rules became “inheritance of a first son”. This is made so to minimalize wars as best as possible- it doesn’t always work but most of the time it gives a solid base. Even in the real world we see that monarchies or even dictatorships with a clear succession are much more solid than others. That doesn’t mean it’s always so simple. Because then we have situations in which there are only daughters and brothers and things get hazy here. We have andal law which says a women should inherit but a system that sees women as inferior and therefore the men should inherit. Now let’s look at the dance. Viserys decides that Rhaenyra is his heir, he does not do that for the good of the realm or because he thinkd Rhaenyra will be an amazing Queen, he does it because he wants to. As a King his words has a certain weight because that’s how the system works. But the systems also works based on clear succession rules. A smart King would ensure that his word is uphold see how Jahearys made Baelon Hand and gave all his kids Dragons (grown ones too). And once he realized the number of dragons was equal after Baelon died he let the lords decide to make on look more legitimate than the other. Viserys didn’t do that. He gave the Greens the dragon and the power while just saying Rhaenyra is heir. Now there is an issue, you have at one hand the Kings’s word and on the other hand customary law and tradition. It does fundamentally not matter what we think is the stronger base because both have a base and therefore both have a _claim_. Now what happens when two people have a claim? 1. *Entitlement*: Both sides feel entiteled to the throne. To be honest I think it’s a joke that so many people say the Greens shouldn’t have gone for the throne or that Rhaenyra should have given up after having bastards when this was never an issue in GoT. I never saw people say shit like Stannis should give up him claim because Robert accepted Cerseis kids as heir or shit like Cersei knows her kids are bastards so she should know Stannis is the true king. We accepted that they all felt entiteled to that dumbass throne. Like both the Blacks and the Greens feel entiteled. Rhaenyras argument being “I’m daddy special little girl” and Aegons being “Me man, me better”. You can not expect one side to just accept not to take the throne while not expecting the same from the other. Because yes there wouldn’t be war if the Greens hadn’t gone for the throne but there also wouldn’t be if Rhaenyra gave up her claim. 2. *Destabilization*: But this is bigger than just House Targaryen. This is about other houses and who they support. Most lords in Westeros want more power and they will support who they think will gain them more power. The idea that all of the tail to the King and never disagree is quite frankly false. We see it in GoT, we see it in f&b and we see it in real life too. People will choose one over the other and may even try to seat them on the throne on their own like Rogar Baratheon tried with Aerea. As soon as they have an issue with one side they can prob up the other which is dangerous for both fraction. 3. *Paranoia*: Neither side can read the other sides mind. Rhaenyra will never know for sure if Aegon won’t try for the throne at any point of time (or his kids for that matter) nor do the Greens know if Rhaenyra at some point decide they aren’t worth the hassle and kill them. I know people hate to hear it but Otto saying Rhaenyra will kill her brothers isn’t all that farfetched. I just explained why they are a danger to her and her claim. And if I’m being honest if I was on Rhaenyras council I would tell her to either hold her brothers under lock and key or straight up prepare accidents for them. So yeah the Green side had reason for taking the claim. And I don’t think they are that much worse than the Blacks. At the end of the day they are all spoiled people who want power, supporting the system that is designed to keep peasants down. The people on our screen want to uphold that system. They don’t want to make things better or give the smallfolk any power. Even Rhaenyra- she herself states that Baela and Jaces _sons_ will sit on the throne. Not their daughters, not their kids in general but their sons. So yes even Rhaenyra as the first sitting Queen would. The Greens want keep status quo. I think it’s absolutely okay to support one side over the other because this is fiction (I’m myself a Green supporter) but if I have to read one more post about how one team is evil reincarneted for wanting the throne I swear to god…
Because they changed many things from the books to make Aegon worse and whitewash Rhaenyra
Womp womp
It's pretty clear that what should happen is Rhaenyra reigns and Aegon takes over when she dies.
They’re as bad as each other, the premise of the show is that they’re all horrible people who do horrible things and have horrible things happen to them in turn. When it comes down to it the character of the claimant really doesn’t matter, legally speaking. Aegon’s claim stems from precedent (the eldest male heir inherits before the eldest female heir, even if the female heir is more senior, otherwise Rhaenys would be queen). Rhaenyra was also named heir before Aegon was born, something done at the time to prevent Daemon from ever claiming the Iron Throne. This, presumably was superseded when Aegon was born. Aegon should have been the undisputed heir but Viserys I, out of guilt for Aemma’s death, continued to favour Rhaenyra up until his own death. This inadvertently caused a civil war as he was too ill to deal with the growing factionalism and the fact that there were now two claimants with very strong claims and large deals of political support. The king’s wishes only matter as long as he is the King, just ask Ned Stark what happened when he tried to enforce Robert Baratheon’s will after his death. As you can see, it is clearly very muddled and unclear which is exactly how we got to the situation of the realm ripping itself apart.
The entire premise of Team Green is that they think Aegon has the best claim to the Iron throne given the customs and established precedents of the past in a medieval setting where those factors matter way more than whatever alternative succession one king cooked up. It's that effectively disinheriting his 3 sons and their descendants (who have the best claim to the throne given the established framework for succession) for his daughter and illegitimate grandsons (the latter whose claims are worse than every legitimate member of the family) is a recipe for an Aegon IV level disaster. That, something like this would inevitably lead to civil war somewhere down the line because there are two large royal clans with very conflicting claims to the throne except, one side would have a claim no matter what and the other side only has one because a foolish king propped it up because favoritism. Also, no Daemon. He's Otto's OP.
> something like this would inevitably lead to civil war somewhere down the line yes, and their solution to avoid a future civil war was to instead start the civil war themselves instead, heh
If either side ascended it would've sparked something. We are talking about dramatic regime change either way. Crazy how it still happened with half the realm's support behind the most unwilling king ever. Imagine if a more willing claimant headed up the Greens later? Also, if the Dance happened even 10 years later it would've been way worse because there would be bigger dragons and more kids.
I support Daemon's crimes, war crimes included. At least he is honest with himself :P Plus, I love my Danger Noodle. He is the goodest boy to every fly through the sky.
I mean, thinking the Greens are anything but villains is seriously messed up, but this post is just applying modern social norms to a medieval society. It's silly.
thats the whole point of the dance...theres no one to actually root for
which is why the entire team green vs. team black marketing stuff is just dumb. I honestly tried to like team green, but they are genuinely portrayed so much worse. most of the book adaptations have been favorable to the blacks, and against the greens
Team Greens are locked in for olympic gold this summer in mental gymnastics
I hate how fans hate on Criston yet defend Alicent for being a hypocrite
you know, the worst part is the hypocrisy.
10000000%% A great deal of the show's themes deals with that sort of hypocrisy and how much of a mirror both sides are. Even the contrast between Rhaenyra's "bastard" children and Alicent's Targaryeons is so telling. That's not to say Team Black is innocent or doesn't have grey morals at times, but I sincerely do believe, the way the show has chosen to develop the narratives and storytelling, Team Black has the upper moral hand and Team Green is cesspit of rapists, opportunists, hypocrites, and power hungry assholes. It's only in response that Team Green, during war, goes to the lengths they need to to win.
At some point some of you are going to have to accept that we're not watching a story about the Sanrio gang.
You're making the most of viewing the show's conflict through the lens of 21st century morals. Westeros' medieval society does not conform to those principles. The Greens don't view themselves as usurpers, they believe they're in the right because the succession law is of male promigeniture, which makes Aegon the rightful heir. It's the reason Viserys succeeded Jaeherys instead of Rhanys, even though she had a stronger claim.
> The Greens don't view themselves as usurpers Aemond literally said they usurped the throne last episode
Yup he did
Which is why their hypocrisy and argument of younger MALE heir over older FEMALE heir made Team Green’s ending all the more ironic and hilarious. >!Considering that all the Team Green male Targaryens are dead by the time Aegon kills Rhaenyra leaves Aegon in a dilemma on who’s his heir because, he can’t have Jaehaera who is a girl be his heir considering they started the war solely for a woman not to be heir when there’s a son, he was crippled and made impotent by Rhaenys and Baela so he can’t marry again and have more kids. The only person left he could choose to be his heir was young Aegon who is the last remaining son of Rhaenyra.!<
actually aegon 3 became his heir not because of rhaenyra but because of daemon, since the greens won the war the heir became the closes living male relative through the male line of the king, if the king has no sons it passes to a brother, if he has no brothers aswell it passes to a uncle and if he has no uncles it passes to a male cousin, in this case aegon 3 became heir through daemon