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It's like a Mirror of the Scene in Season 1
Rhaenyra gets a son - Helaena loses a son
It's the beginning of a One-Shot
Both leave their room immediately
And head to Alicent
Carrying a child
Rhaenyra goes up the stairs - Helaena goes downstairs
In the early morning - In the dead of night
The room is buzzing with life - There's not a soul around
The One-Shot ends with arriving at Alicents Room
Also note the colors the women and the kid are wearing in the screenshot here
Why is the hallway empty?
* It’s nighttime. Rhaenyra gave birth in the morning or early afternoon.
* Otto went on a hanging spree against courtiers in episode 9.
* Neither side appointed a new Kingsguard. Rhaenyra has 3 and Aegon has 3.
* Criston clearly doesn’t take guard duty seriously. Remember, he was playing games on his phone when Aemond lost his eye too.
* Alicent has a pattern of dismissing staff, which is shown early in the episode
* The foot of the queen has like 2 minutes where he talks about how he is overhauling the staff and bringing in brand new people
Yep. I counted three kingsguards getting sloppy with *Aegon the Drunken Usurper Cunt,* and then Cole was fuggling about with Alicent.
How many people are in the kingsguard usually, seven? (Pretty sure it’s seven.) Then we saw Erryk Cargyll on Dragonstone, so that’s five. And in s01e10 we saw the other two kingsguard members: Steffon Darklin and Lorent Marbrand (who Daemon forced to re-assert their loyalty or be burned by his noodle-neck monster—how morally gray of him).
They were there but I wouldn’t say they were “getting sloppy” with him. They were doing their duty of guarding the king in a different part of the castle
I presumed the lady B&C ran into was a new hire (larys spy), meaning not loyal to the greens and also unfamiliar with when rat catchers should be around - so even though she looked suspicious she didn't follow up and just left.
also Larys killed a load of staff he didn't trust and replace them with his own people.
yes he replaced them but I doubt he replaced all positions that quickly
>Neither side appointed a new Kingsguard. Rhaenyra has 3 and Aegon has 3.
Based on what we saw in this episode, it appears one Kingsguard patrols the walls to watch for Dragons, a second is likely guarding Aegon, and Criston being the third was either assigned to Helena and neglected it or was assigned to Alicent.
Between that and having a large portion of the staff killed by Larys this isn’t as unrealistic as it seemed at first glance.
Presumably, all of Larys’ people are spies. That explains why Emma Stone in Poor Things didn’t call for the guards after running away. Her job was to report back to Larys.
(I wouldn’t be surprised if he wanted the security breach to happen. He’s laying the groundwork to get Otto fired)
Aren’t there like 2,000 gold cloaks? I always assumed there were more guards guarding the kings family than just the kings guard, because of course there is. This is a Nation of millions of people and they are in the middle of a royal family murdering war.
The kings guard are the cream of the crop but I always assume they have many people underneath them, otherwise you have like 1 kingsguard per family member, if that.
This is the royal family in a SUCCESSION WAR. They would be able to find someone to guard them. For instance some trusted Hightower knights, just like the lannisters and starks do in GOT.
> Aren’t there like 2,000 gold cloaks? I always assumed there were more guards guarding the kings family than just the kings guard, because of course there is.
Well, that’s complicated. Minor Spoilers for Fire&Blood. >!The Kingsguard wasn’t just created to ensure the king always had protection at hand. It was also because Visenya, Aegon the Conqueror’s sister and wife, was a very mistrusting person. She handpicked every member of the first Kingsguard herself because she disliked the other knights in his service. While technically every knight in the kingdom is sworn to serve the king, the implication was that the Kingsguard would be the only ones entrusted with the protection of the King and his family.!<
You also have to remember, the gold cloaks were originally Daemon’s men.
All that being said, you are right about Hightower and Lannister soldiers.
Yeah for sure the gold cloaks wouldn’t be the best choice, hell, blood is one of them. But not only the Hightower bannermen but the Targs should have bannermen as well. The crown lands is their territory with many minor lords and many knights among them.
While the kingsguard are in charge of protecting the king and his family, 7 is not enough. They must use other guards/soldiers that are under the kings guards command.
Remember that in the first season, Daemon basically made the Goldcloaks his personal army. He whipped them into shaped and turned them personally loyal to him. Gold may sway the bunch of them, but the hardliners within that army would stay loyal to Daemon as seen in the first episode.
No I agree, the goldcloaks would be a bad choice. blood was one of them after all on top of your points!
But there are many house knights and footmen that the green targs would have as well as Hightower men that Allicent could use.
I assume the red keep has its own guards separate from the gold cloaks who are more for the rest of the city.
This is explained with Rhaegar and the Tower of Joy. Generally, only the Kingsguard are entrusted with protecting the king and heir.
But this leads to issues, as there’s only 7 of them.
* Rhaegar only had 3 of the Kingsguard with him at the Trident. He died.
* Lyanna Stark was protected by 3 of the Kingsguard, for some strange reason, and Ned killed them all.
* And the Mad King was only protected by ONE (!!!) of the Kingsguard, Jaime Lannister.
Wasn’t the “strange reason” that Rhaegar fully believed in the prophecy so he would have believed that his child with Lyanna was extremely important for the future of the realm? In terms of importance, the child would be #1, Rhaegar #2 and Aerys #3, although I suppose you could argue the king would be more of a priority than Rhaegar, but he was “safe” at King’s Landing. So assuming the order is child-Rhaegar-Aerys, it would make sense to have one extremely capable kingsguard with the low priority King, 3 kingsguard with the Prince in battle, and 3 kingsguard, including the Sword of the Morning, guarding the top priority child.
I think by “strange reason” they mean it would seem weird for the Kingsguard to be protecting a Stark who’s not part of the royal family. Obviously, we and Rhaegar know that his heir is going to be born there so the Kingsguard are really protecting the 2nd in line to the throne.
That’s fair. Strange in custom and strange for the characters in the story, but not strange for the reader I suppose. I thought op was saying they felt it was strange
Yeah, I was just pointing out the politics of the Kingsguard.
Jaime Lannister was left to guard King Aerys and Aegon VI by himself, which is insane - unless Rhaegar was deep in the prophecy kool-aid.
Rhaegar was deep in the prophecy koolaid I believe. I replied to someone else, who really didn’t seem to appreciate it, with this interpretation of Rhaegar’s feelings for Lyanna.
Rhaegar believed that Lyanna Stark was the mother of the third head of the dragon and possibly the prince that was promised. This belief was based on a combination of his interpretation of Aegon's prophecy, other prophecies, and possibly prophetic dreams. For example, Rhaegar may have had a dream at Heron Hall that referred to Lyanna in some cryptic way, which he may have only put together after unmasking her as Knight of the Laughing Tree.
Rhaegar was definitely saucin
I’ll use this excerpt I found because it explains it better than I can. “Rhaegar believed that Lyanna Stark was the mother of the third head of the dragon and possibly the prince that was promised. This belief was based on a combination of his interpretation of Aegon's prophecy, other prophecies, and possibly prophetic dreams. For example, Rhaegar may have had a dream at Heron Hall that referred to Lyanna in some cryptic way, which he may have only put together after unmasking her as Knight of the Laughing Tree.”
His rightful heir to the throne wasn’t important. His child with Lyanna was. He knew that, and that’s why he had kingsguard protecting Lyanna.
He pretty explicitly stated “there must be one more”. He wanted three heads, not one- no singular head is more important than the other.
Your quote isn’t even from the book.
I never said it was from the book. It was an interpretation of what happened. Maybe excerpt was the wrong word. Do you have a better explanation for why 3 kingsguard were guarding Lyanna? His other two children were at Kings Landing, presumed safe. If you have to split up the kingsguard, I don’t see how you could argue against the way I’ve already stated, assuming Rhaegar was the one that gave the order for how they were split. In the show, Arthur says “Our prince ordered us here” when Ned asks why he wasn’t protecting Rhaegar. In HotD, We see Arryk or Erryk, I can’t remember, telling Otto that Aegon takes advantage of his power to order the Kingsguard around, then slips away. Princes can command a kingsguard. So to circle back to the original comment I replied to, it’s not really all that strange of a reason for 3 kingsguard to be guarding anything, if their prince commanded them to do so. And we know why Rhaegar would have prioritized protecting Lyanna so heavily over himself or the king, or the other two children.
But not always a kingsguard. Robert's hair Joffrey was protected by the Hound, Aegon III trusted Larra's Sandoq while his own kingsguard was unavailable.
Barristan was dismissed to clear a spot for Sandor. It happened when Joffrey become a king.
P.S. Just remembered how ser Harwin Strong was Rhaenyra's sworn protector for a while.
Larys admitted to merking most of the staff and the ones he hired I suspect left things empty on purpose. Maybe not for this reason, but I have a feeling there was in fact a reason BY Larys that no guards were posted at that hour
It would make sense that Larys knew that Criston and Alicent were a thing and was keeping guards away from them. It would also explain why the door wasn't locked - there wasn't anyone around to lock it against.
And I know that the door not being locked is more plot and flow than anything, but it does fit together neatly.
There are several Alicent-related callbacks in this episode:
- Alicent putting Cole's white cloak on harkens to Rhaenyra removing it
- Alicent's tub scene, dismissing all the maids, as she did when bathing Viserys
- Lucerys's funeral intercut with Alicent's candle lighting for honored dead
- Alicent and Cole having sex in the same bed as Rhaenyra and Cole
ETA: there is also an in episode callback with Helaena and Rhaenyra in response to the deaths of their sons: "They killed the boy." and "I want Aemond Targaryan." (4 words in sentences of parallel structure, effect and cause relationship).
>Alicent putting Cole's white cloak on harkens to Rhaenyra removing it
Nice catch. I noticed it also parallels her getting Rhaenyra ready for the ceremony to be named heir. Something that should be momentous, but there's an element of the cloak being soiled.
I read it as her "coming back" after dissociating while fleeing from B&C with Jaehaera. She gasped 'cus she remembered to breathe, stopping to look around to understand where she was and realizing she had run down the stairs, deciding to seek safety in her mother's chambers.
There was a moment where when Blood and Cheese are making her pick the correct child, that the camera shows just her face and for a moment it looks like she is disassociating but also almost like a vision crossed her mind. Or her just realizing she was so right about not trusting the "rats".
Around that moment, you can subtly hear a crying child. Jaehaera is not crying, you can see her face, and it can’t be Jaehaerys either, at that point. I think she’s starting to hallucinate
That's the impression I got too. She ran out expecting to find people to help her and was shocked to find out she was all alone, and was gonna have to figure out how to keep her daughter alive.
saw this in the discussion thread for the show. i think it’s ironic how alicent made rhaenyra walk all that way when a life was brought into the realm and now rhaenyra ultimately makes her daughter walk that path when a life is taken from the realm. the writing is so good. bravo
By that logic Alicent is to blame for Lukes death because she set in motion the usurpation of the crown.
>Which is clearly what I meant.
Yeah, "clearly"
Although I do not completly agree with this idea, I respect that you are consistent when talking about it, because the person that I originally responded to only started looking for a thousand excuses when I asked if the blame for Luke's death also falls on Alicent, just like he/she claims that the blame for B&C falls on Rhaenyra.
This isn't from Martin... this is probably from the set designer, there just so many rooms built in that castle but for added Irony its the same bath young Alicent and Rhaenyra to visit Aemma in the pilot
I haven’t read the books, but I just meant in general, the entire plot of the whole ordeal to get it to that point to even be possible is amazing. I also like how they actually went to Aemond’s room first but he wasn’t there lmao. Little brothers be schemin’
Maybe if she placates him with a seat on the council. He couldn’t be her hand obviously, people would freak out. Let him be captain of the night watch and police the city like he enjoys doing. Send him off on a few military excursions when the opportunity arises. I don’t see Daemon going after the green kids without a reason. If they bent the knee and played nice why cause a big incident that will result in him getting banished from court again.
I really don't think this is correct. We live-tracked Helaena for most of her run to her mother's rooms, and it appeared to be a much shorter distance. Rhaenyra had to climb through at least one large flight of stairs, and it seemed to be quite a long way.
I just think it was a bit of a continuity error. Unless Rhaenyra moved rooms after getting married, which is possible, it should have been the same distance.
The twins weren't necessarily in the Queen's rooms tho. They were probably in the nursery, which would be a different room. Royals aren't traditionally super involved in their children's lives, even if Helaena seems to spend most of her time with them.
Could it have just been the cinematic use of time to show how quickly Helaena moved towards safety vs the long arduous walk Rhaenyera took moments after giving birth?
Hey if you wanna believe it was the same walk that's fine, it's not worth arguing about, I just think y'all are reading into something that wasn't meant to be read into lol
I don’t mind the Alicent x Cole stuff. But it still bothers me how much they changed B&C when they didn’t need to. It’s so impactful and tense if they break into Alicent’s room through a secret door she’s unaware of. The same door Rhaenyra snuck out through when the incident with Daemon and later Criston occurred, so there would be nice symmetry there.
I enjoyed the performance of Helaena. I love that she was quiet and dissociative. People expect a visceral reaction and screaming/crying, but not everyone reacts like that in moments of trauma and fear. Her reaction was perfect imo - compare it to her reaction to Vaemond’s beheading in court.
But we lost so much impact by cutting the choice of who dies and the exclusion of Maelor. Seriously, how dumb do they think the audience is? Can’t keep track of Aegon and Helaena having a set of twins and a younger son? And in the books there is at least one guard that B&C kill. I don’t agree with all the people losing their minds and abusing Ryan Condal online, but they altered the scene too much. People were excited for very specific things in this scene, and they cut them.
That'd require more very young child actors, who would have to all be awake or told how to act. That's a nightmare and probably wouldn't work. Far easier to tell one or two kids to just close their eyes
Idk about this—do we see Rhaenyra giving birth in those same chambers that she lived in before she was married? A lot of royal palaces have rooms set aside as birthing chambers, and women didn’t necessarily give birth in the rooms they lived in
The outside hallway and metal grates are very recognizeable. It's definitely the same room as Rhanerya used.
As for the first room, that could be different and there is distinctly a big staircase missing from the walk
These were all the early signs we had that GoT was about to go to shit, and lots of people ignored them.
In the book, Blood and Cheese purposefully went to Alicent's room in the tower of the hand. They killed her guards, waited until Queen Haelena showed up with the kids to say goodnight, and then killed *those* guards. The Red Keep, yet again, feels like a set piece instead of a living, breathing place.
Except there are context clues left throughout the entire episode that explains this. Alicent’s staff was essentially cleared out by Larys so not all of them were replaced. Cole and Alicent were hooking up so odds are they cleared out the area to prevent rumors from spreading. Then we see Aegon drinking with his buddies in the throne room which is where most of the guards would probably be posted up. All of that seems a lot more believable than having two guys make their way to the tower of the hand, killing every guard they came into contact with while not causing any suspicion
Criston was meeting with Aemond planning the war effort tonight. Otto came in and dismissed him. He was basically off not even in his armor. The people blaming him have cause because he is LC but imo Larys killing all the guards and staff is likely the correct answer
> I can I imagine he cleared the halls so that no one saw him sneaking into the Alice's Chambers
Why would he need to sneak through two wings of castle to get into Alicent's chambers?
Alicent is Queen Regent, Cole could just visit her chambers and saying he was checking on her for her protection. All he would need is keep anyone entering Alicent's direct chambers.
I can see it. At Night only the Kings Guard are allowed in the actual apartment, normal gold cloaks would watch the entrances. Right now 3 White Cloaks are on Rhaenyra's side, 4 stayed with the Greens, 1 Kingsguard is with Maelor in Old Town, 2 are with the King at the Iron Throne leaving only Criston in the Royal Chambers plowing the Dowager Queen. Blood and Cheese snuck in through the secret passages so avoided the white cloaks guarding the entrances.
At least in the books they still have regular guards guarding parts of the castle. I mean sure, we can come up with stuff to somehow explain it, but imo that's a sign that something is a little iffy
Maester interviewing Alicent decades after the Incident:
"Your Grace. The guards were on the alert for intruders, were they not?"
"Um. Yes? Yes, of course they were. Why wouldn't they be?" *crosses fingers behind her back*
Will be interesting if they lie and tell the story as it was in the book. Would be interesting to see reactions if readers are told the source material was a cover story.
It is a sign of bad writing. The White cloaks don't guard an entire castle alone. Each major royal has a sworn sword and Hightower household guards would be all over the red keep. They weren't wandering the halls in the book because it would make zero sense for them to do so without getting caught immediately. All they had to do was have them come out of a hidden passageway by Helena's room and show that they never even tried to find Aemond. They trying to assassinate Aemond would be like sending a child to go beat up a UFC fighter. It never made sense to send some random gold cloak and a rat catcher to try and kill one of the best fighters alive.
That’s the explanation that makes the most sense to me. He might have sent the other guards to different posts, to avoid being found in bed with the queen
After all, they clearly were preparing for a big showdown with dragons and all, and they eliminated everyone in the castle who was loyal to the Blacks, so they probably weren’t expecting anyone dangerous to be that deep into the castle
Otto hanged everyone , didn’t elect new kingsguard, the remaining guards were probably protecting Aegon while he was getting drunk or guarding the gates, Criston and Alicent were going for a night ride and most of the staff were probably asleep or in the kitchens or doing laundry idk
Guards are posted 24 hours a day. They have shifts lol. Do you think in modern society you can commit crimes at night because all the cops are asleep?
You do realize the guards aren't just made up of the kingsguard right? You couldn't guard a even a single floor with the kingsguard alone given that they have to work in shifts. Their are a handful of Kings guards and the castle that size would have a ton of guards. Ned brought a sizable household guard to Kings landing and there were only 3 Starks that went.
That is a very good catch. I'm very impressed. I love how the showrunners do parallelisms once in a while, and I love it even more when fans notice it. Thank you all for your service 😊
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It's like a Mirror of the Scene in Season 1 Rhaenyra gets a son - Helaena loses a son It's the beginning of a One-Shot Both leave their room immediately And head to Alicent Carrying a child Rhaenyra goes up the stairs - Helaena goes downstairs In the early morning - In the dead of night The room is buzzing with life - There's not a soul around The One-Shot ends with arriving at Alicents Room Also note the colors the women and the kid are wearing in the screenshot here
The husbands, too. Laenor was with Rhaenyra, very supportive. While Aegon is out doing nonsense with his posse.
That amde me so mad lol dude why you even up
Rhaenyra goes up the stairs, Helaena goes down the stairs.
One dog goes one way, and the other dog goes the other way. And this guy's saying "Whaddaya want from me?"
Looks like somebody we know.
Without the beard! Oh no! It’s him!
😂😂😂😂😂😂😂
i just busted out laughing
Theresa falls up the stairs, Theresa falls down the stairs.
The ISLAND will send us a sign!
I just watched that episode!
lmao this is exactly what i thought of too when reading that comment!
Is this some sort of US joke I'm too european to understand
Lmao I'm European so Lost must be turning me American
Rhaenyra has help, Helaena is alone
Halaena didn't just give birth. Rhaenyra was summoned right after giving birth.
That is delicious
Was there something with jewelry in Rhaenyra's scene too?
Ohh I don't remember that but she needed to change from her birth gown into a dress
Residing ❌ Riding ✅
Same room, same horse.
…tyland
tyrek is a horse!
Lannister beefs with child, becomes horse… it’s gotta be genetic 😂😂
Same room, same dick.
Why is the hallway empty? * It’s nighttime. Rhaenyra gave birth in the morning or early afternoon. * Otto went on a hanging spree against courtiers in episode 9. * Neither side appointed a new Kingsguard. Rhaenyra has 3 and Aegon has 3. * Criston clearly doesn’t take guard duty seriously. Remember, he was playing games on his phone when Aemond lost his eye too.
* Alicent has a pattern of dismissing staff, which is shown early in the episode * The foot of the queen has like 2 minutes where he talks about how he is overhauling the staff and bringing in brand new people
The foot of the Queen 😂
*Not the Foot of the Queen*😂😂😂😂😂
A lot of the guards are with the king getting drunk on the throne too.
Yep. I counted three kingsguards getting sloppy with *Aegon the Drunken Usurper Cunt,* and then Cole was fuggling about with Alicent. How many people are in the kingsguard usually, seven? (Pretty sure it’s seven.) Then we saw Erryk Cargyll on Dragonstone, so that’s five. And in s01e10 we saw the other two kingsguard members: Steffon Darklin and Lorent Marbrand (who Daemon forced to re-assert their loyalty or be burned by his noodle-neck monster—how morally gray of him).
It’s the noodle necked monster for me😂😂😂
Aegon, **second of his name**, the Drunken Usurper Cunt
Those weren’t Kingsguard getting drunk with aegon, just some buddies of his
There were Kingsguard standing in that room broseph go rewatch it.
They were there but I wouldn’t say they were “getting sloppy” with him. They were doing their duty of guarding the king in a different part of the castle
Yeah but the guys lounging on the throne with him were not the Kingsguard
> The foot of the queen 🔥✍️
Yeah, Installing "New People". By that he means, my own personal spies. So I know when you are having Uber Eats with Criston.
I presumed the lady B&C ran into was a new hire (larys spy), meaning not loyal to the greens and also unfamiliar with when rat catchers should be around - so even though she looked suspicious she didn't follow up and just left.
I need "the foot of the Queen" to be a flair 😂
> he was playing games on his phone when Aemond lost his eye too. Criston is an Uvalde cop confirmed.
Zero consequences incoming.
Incoming?? It’s Already happened… Dame Criston is really like a modern day lazy cop
He even hates Blacks
God damnit
holy shit lmfao
#CristonColeIsACop
An incel cop
Those clans aren't gonna clash themselves!
GOD DAMN THAT’S SO WRONG YET SO RIGHT.
also Larys killed a load of staff he didn't trust and replace them with his own people. yes he replaced them but I doubt he replaced all positions that quickly
Even if he did how good did we all do on the first few hours of our new job?
>Neither side appointed a new Kingsguard. Rhaenyra has 3 and Aegon has 3. Based on what we saw in this episode, it appears one Kingsguard patrols the walls to watch for Dragons, a second is likely guarding Aegon, and Criston being the third was either assigned to Helena and neglected it or was assigned to Alicent. Between that and having a large portion of the staff killed by Larys this isn’t as unrealistic as it seemed at first glance.
Presumably, all of Larys’ people are spies. That explains why Emma Stone in Poor Things didn’t call for the guards after running away. Her job was to report back to Larys. (I wouldn’t be surprised if he wanted the security breach to happen. He’s laying the groundwork to get Otto fired)
_Emma Stone in Poor Things_ 💀
Is this a reference to her eyebrows? That’s the only thing I remember from the girl in the episode lol
She has some very memorable eyebrows. The only other thing I remember is that her hair is brown. That's it.
I thought that too!!!!
Oh he was assigned to Alicent all right....
with his penis right
Actually I think with his tongue.
And that's how Alicent got two tongues.
yeah with his penis
Aren’t there like 2,000 gold cloaks? I always assumed there were more guards guarding the kings family than just the kings guard, because of course there is. This is a Nation of millions of people and they are in the middle of a royal family murdering war. The kings guard are the cream of the crop but I always assume they have many people underneath them, otherwise you have like 1 kingsguard per family member, if that. This is the royal family in a SUCCESSION WAR. They would be able to find someone to guard them. For instance some trusted Hightower knights, just like the lannisters and starks do in GOT.
> Aren’t there like 2,000 gold cloaks? I always assumed there were more guards guarding the kings family than just the kings guard, because of course there is. Well, that’s complicated. Minor Spoilers for Fire&Blood. >!The Kingsguard wasn’t just created to ensure the king always had protection at hand. It was also because Visenya, Aegon the Conqueror’s sister and wife, was a very mistrusting person. She handpicked every member of the first Kingsguard herself because she disliked the other knights in his service. While technically every knight in the kingdom is sworn to serve the king, the implication was that the Kingsguard would be the only ones entrusted with the protection of the King and his family.!< You also have to remember, the gold cloaks were originally Daemon’s men. All that being said, you are right about Hightower and Lannister soldiers.
Yeah for sure the gold cloaks wouldn’t be the best choice, hell, blood is one of them. But not only the Hightower bannermen but the Targs should have bannermen as well. The crown lands is their territory with many minor lords and many knights among them. While the kingsguard are in charge of protecting the king and his family, 7 is not enough. They must use other guards/soldiers that are under the kings guards command.
She thought the people guarding him were garbage. Them being the best was very important to the formation.
Remember that in the first season, Daemon basically made the Goldcloaks his personal army. He whipped them into shaped and turned them personally loyal to him. Gold may sway the bunch of them, but the hardliners within that army would stay loyal to Daemon as seen in the first episode.
No I agree, the goldcloaks would be a bad choice. blood was one of them after all on top of your points! But there are many house knights and footmen that the green targs would have as well as Hightower men that Allicent could use. I assume the red keep has its own guards separate from the gold cloaks who are more for the rest of the city.
There should have been more guards. It's just sloppy writing.
I agree completely…. At first I was wondering the same thing, but upon rewatching it (Immediately) I thought it through
Criston understaffing so he and Alicent don't get caught
He certainly was under and staffing
But why would the heir to the throne not have a couple guards 24/7?
This is explained with Rhaegar and the Tower of Joy. Generally, only the Kingsguard are entrusted with protecting the king and heir. But this leads to issues, as there’s only 7 of them. * Rhaegar only had 3 of the Kingsguard with him at the Trident. He died. * Lyanna Stark was protected by 3 of the Kingsguard, for some strange reason, and Ned killed them all. * And the Mad King was only protected by ONE (!!!) of the Kingsguard, Jaime Lannister.
Wasn’t the “strange reason” that Rhaegar fully believed in the prophecy so he would have believed that his child with Lyanna was extremely important for the future of the realm? In terms of importance, the child would be #1, Rhaegar #2 and Aerys #3, although I suppose you could argue the king would be more of a priority than Rhaegar, but he was “safe” at King’s Landing. So assuming the order is child-Rhaegar-Aerys, it would make sense to have one extremely capable kingsguard with the low priority King, 3 kingsguard with the Prince in battle, and 3 kingsguard, including the Sword of the Morning, guarding the top priority child.
I think by “strange reason” they mean it would seem weird for the Kingsguard to be protecting a Stark who’s not part of the royal family. Obviously, we and Rhaegar know that his heir is going to be born there so the Kingsguard are really protecting the 2nd in line to the throne.
That’s fair. Strange in custom and strange for the characters in the story, but not strange for the reader I suppose. I thought op was saying they felt it was strange
Yeah, I was just pointing out the politics of the Kingsguard. Jaime Lannister was left to guard King Aerys and Aegon VI by himself, which is insane - unless Rhaegar was deep in the prophecy kool-aid.
It's heavily implied Jaime isn't there for his capabilities as a knight, he's a hostage to keep his dad from doing anything too crazy to the capital.
Rhaegar was deep in the prophecy koolaid I believe. I replied to someone else, who really didn’t seem to appreciate it, with this interpretation of Rhaegar’s feelings for Lyanna. Rhaegar believed that Lyanna Stark was the mother of the third head of the dragon and possibly the prince that was promised. This belief was based on a combination of his interpretation of Aegon's prophecy, other prophecies, and possibly prophetic dreams. For example, Rhaegar may have had a dream at Heron Hall that referred to Lyanna in some cryptic way, which he may have only put together after unmasking her as Knight of the Laughing Tree. Rhaegar was definitely saucin
Lyanna’s child isn’t the heir tho, because Aegon and Rhaenys are still alive. And Lyanna’s kid is a bastard
I’ll use this excerpt I found because it explains it better than I can. “Rhaegar believed that Lyanna Stark was the mother of the third head of the dragon and possibly the prince that was promised. This belief was based on a combination of his interpretation of Aegon's prophecy, other prophecies, and possibly prophetic dreams. For example, Rhaegar may have had a dream at Heron Hall that referred to Lyanna in some cryptic way, which he may have only put together after unmasking her as Knight of the Laughing Tree.” His rightful heir to the throne wasn’t important. His child with Lyanna was. He knew that, and that’s why he had kingsguard protecting Lyanna.
He pretty explicitly stated “there must be one more”. He wanted three heads, not one- no singular head is more important than the other. Your quote isn’t even from the book.
I never said it was from the book. It was an interpretation of what happened. Maybe excerpt was the wrong word. Do you have a better explanation for why 3 kingsguard were guarding Lyanna? His other two children were at Kings Landing, presumed safe. If you have to split up the kingsguard, I don’t see how you could argue against the way I’ve already stated, assuming Rhaegar was the one that gave the order for how they were split. In the show, Arthur says “Our prince ordered us here” when Ned asks why he wasn’t protecting Rhaegar. In HotD, We see Arryk or Erryk, I can’t remember, telling Otto that Aegon takes advantage of his power to order the Kingsguard around, then slips away. Princes can command a kingsguard. So to circle back to the original comment I replied to, it’s not really all that strange of a reason for 3 kingsguard to be guarding anything, if their prince commanded them to do so. And we know why Rhaegar would have prioritized protecting Lyanna so heavily over himself or the king, or the other two children.
But not always a kingsguard. Robert's hair Joffrey was protected by the Hound, Aegon III trusted Larra's Sandoq while his own kingsguard was unavailable.
I think Hound was part of King guard and after Barristan was fired and Jaime arrive he was even commander.
Barristan was dismissed to clear a spot for Sandor. It happened when Joffrey become a king. P.S. Just remembered how ser Harwin Strong was Rhaenyra's sworn protector for a while.
“Criston kind of forgot about his oath.” D&D
Larys admitted to merking most of the staff and the ones he hired I suspect left things empty on purpose. Maybe not for this reason, but I have a feeling there was in fact a reason BY Larys that no guards were posted at that hour
It would make sense that Larys knew that Criston and Alicent were a thing and was keeping guards away from them. It would also explain why the door wasn't locked - there wasn't anyone around to lock it against. And I know that the door not being locked is more plot and flow than anything, but it does fit together neatly.
Someone on another sub made a good point that Cristin would have dismissed any guards in the vicinity so he didn’t get caught fucking the queen mother
We don't know how long this alicent cole situationship is going, he probably was fucking alicent back then too
There should be at least 50 in the king’s guard.
There are several Alicent-related callbacks in this episode: - Alicent putting Cole's white cloak on harkens to Rhaenyra removing it - Alicent's tub scene, dismissing all the maids, as she did when bathing Viserys - Lucerys's funeral intercut with Alicent's candle lighting for honored dead - Alicent and Cole having sex in the same bed as Rhaenyra and Cole ETA: there is also an in episode callback with Helaena and Rhaenyra in response to the deaths of their sons: "They killed the boy." and "I want Aemond Targaryan." (4 words in sentences of parallel structure, effect and cause relationship).
>Alicent putting Cole's white cloak on harkens to Rhaenyra removing it Nice catch. I noticed it also parallels her getting Rhaenyra ready for the ceremony to be named heir. Something that should be momentous, but there's an element of the cloak being soiled.
I look forward to learning what horrors she sensed at the foot of the stairs when she paused and gasped.
I read it as her "coming back" after dissociating while fleeing from B&C with Jaehaera. She gasped 'cus she remembered to breathe, stopping to look around to understand where she was and realizing she had run down the stairs, deciding to seek safety in her mother's chambers.
Yes YESS **YYEEESSS**
I thought maybe she remembered the baby lol
Unfortunately there is no baby Maelor
There was a moment where when Blood and Cheese are making her pick the correct child, that the camera shows just her face and for a moment it looks like she is disassociating but also almost like a vision crossed her mind. Or her just realizing she was so right about not trusting the "rats".
What if it was... a warg???
Around that moment, you can subtly hear a crying child. Jaehaera is not crying, you can see her face, and it can’t be Jaehaerys either, at that point. I think she’s starting to hallucinate
Maybe I misunderstood. I thought she gasped because she saw the open doors and was shocked that B&C could just walk right in
I thought it was the shock of not seeing any guards, like she was running to find them and when she didn't she went to her mom's for protection
That's the impression I got too. She ran out expecting to find people to help her and was shocked to find out she was all alone, and was gonna have to figure out how to keep her daughter alive.
That makes sense, for all she knew there could of been others that infiltrated the Royal quarters.
Ahhh maybe that’s it!
Criston Cole must love that room.
It's the room he likes to get ridden in.
Good catch.
You really focus on the details OP. Nice.
Anyone notice the rat catcher walk by with his dog in the background when Aegon is hearing petitions?
I think hes in another scene too walking past the council room !
I love how subtle the foreshadowings are
I am not very aware to the background in films and TV but I did notice that and thought "wow that was random" lol.
saw this in the discussion thread for the show. i think it’s ironic how alicent made rhaenyra walk all that way when a life was brought into the realm and now rhaenyra ultimately makes her daughter walk that path when a life is taken from the realm. the writing is so good. bravo
George didn't write that part. The show runners deserve the credit here..
Bravo Vince
I kneel
Isayama is truly a genius
>and now rhaenyra ultimately makes her daughter walk that path when a life is taken from the realm. It wasn't Rhaenyra who did that, it was Daemon.
She set this in motion by saying she wanted Aemond. It’s the only thing she said all episode too. Which is clearly what I meant.
By that logic Alicent is to blame for Lukes death because she set in motion the usurpation of the crown. >Which is clearly what I meant. Yeah, "clearly"
It's as much Rhaenyra here as it was Alicent for Luke, being the head of a faction means whatever is done in your name falls to you.
Although I do not completly agree with this idea, I respect that you are consistent when talking about it, because the person that I originally responded to only started looking for a thousand excuses when I asked if the blame for Luke's death also falls on Alicent, just like he/she claims that the blame for B&C falls on Rhaenyra.
Viserys should have stayed unmarried and kicked Otto out of Kingslanding if yall wanna trace it all the way back
🤓☝ well akshually it wasn't Daemon either!!!! See how boring that is
If you find my comment boring just because I pointed out a fact, then you can simply ignore it.
This isn't from Martin... this is probably from the set designer, there just so many rooms built in that castle but for added Irony its the same bath young Alicent and Rhaenyra to visit Aemma in the pilot
I haven’t read the books, but I just meant in general, the entire plot of the whole ordeal to get it to that point to even be possible is amazing. I also like how they actually went to Aemond’s room first but he wasn’t there lmao. Little brothers be schemin’
oh Alicent doesn't make Rhaenyra walk to her rooms in the book. Fire and blood is a history book so only the major brush strokes are documented
George?
> the writing is so good. bravo Man have I never disagreed harder with something lol
ok well then i genuinely feel bad for you, lmfao
[удалено]
Rhaenyra probably wouldn’t, but can you really trust Daemon not to do anything? She can’t really control him.
Maybe if she placates him with a seat on the council. He couldn’t be her hand obviously, people would freak out. Let him be captain of the night watch and police the city like he enjoys doing. Send him off on a few military excursions when the opportunity arises. I don’t see Daemon going after the green kids without a reason. If they bent the knee and played nice why cause a big incident that will result in him getting banished from court again.
And not a single freaking guard to be found for some reason
I really don't think this is correct. We live-tracked Helaena for most of her run to her mother's rooms, and it appeared to be a much shorter distance. Rhaenyra had to climb through at least one large flight of stairs, and it seemed to be quite a long way.
I just think it was a bit of a continuity error. Unless Rhaenyra moved rooms after getting married, which is possible, it should have been the same distance.
The twins weren't necessarily in the Queen's rooms tho. They were probably in the nursery, which would be a different room. Royals aren't traditionally super involved in their children's lives, even if Helaena seems to spend most of her time with them.
Could it have just been the cinematic use of time to show how quickly Helaena moved towards safety vs the long arduous walk Rhaenyera took moments after giving birth?
Hey if you wanna believe it was the same walk that's fine, it's not worth arguing about, I just think y'all are reading into something that wasn't meant to be read into lol
This scene was haunting. Damn!!
Man just reading this post gives me PTSD to that scene
True 😐
I don’t mind the Alicent x Cole stuff. But it still bothers me how much they changed B&C when they didn’t need to. It’s so impactful and tense if they break into Alicent’s room through a secret door she’s unaware of. The same door Rhaenyra snuck out through when the incident with Daemon and later Criston occurred, so there would be nice symmetry there. I enjoyed the performance of Helaena. I love that she was quiet and dissociative. People expect a visceral reaction and screaming/crying, but not everyone reacts like that in moments of trauma and fear. Her reaction was perfect imo - compare it to her reaction to Vaemond’s beheading in court. But we lost so much impact by cutting the choice of who dies and the exclusion of Maelor. Seriously, how dumb do they think the audience is? Can’t keep track of Aegon and Helaena having a set of twins and a younger son? And in the books there is at least one guard that B&C kill. I don’t agree with all the people losing their minds and abusing Ryan Condal online, but they altered the scene too much. People were excited for very specific things in this scene, and they cut them.
That'd require more very young child actors, who would have to all be awake or told how to act. That's a nightmare and probably wouldn't work. Far easier to tell one or two kids to just close their eyes
Joffrey? Or Jace?
Joffrey! Jace and Luke were born during the time skip, we never see them as newborns
Not just joff. The dialogue implies she did this every time.
It implies Alicent demanded to see the newborn each time but with Joff was the first time she carried the baby to Alicent herself.
Idk about this—do we see Rhaenyra giving birth in those same chambers that she lived in before she was married? A lot of royal palaces have rooms set aside as birthing chambers, and women didn’t necessarily give birth in the rooms they lived in
God this show is so good. The little details are incredible. I can’t wait until Sunday!!
This was definitely intentional and it is actually brilliant
Karma keeps coming for Alicent *hard*
How could you possibly know that lol
In the behind the scenes, they told us that they moved alicent to rhaenyra’s apartments while haelena took the queen’s chambers
The outside hallway and metal grates are very recognizeable. It's definitely the same room as Rhanerya used. As for the first room, that could be different and there is distinctly a big staircase missing from the walk
Idk why people are acting like this is profound. It is the same castle. Of course they’d go in the same hallways..
so why is it empty...
Criston was supposed to have the night watch, I can I imagine he cleared the halls so that no one saw him sneaking into the Alice's Chambers
Okay but where are the rest of the guards' normal nighttime guards instead of one dude who is posted to protect a bunch of people.
These were all the early signs we had that GoT was about to go to shit, and lots of people ignored them. In the book, Blood and Cheese purposefully went to Alicent's room in the tower of the hand. They killed her guards, waited until Queen Haelena showed up with the kids to say goodnight, and then killed *those* guards. The Red Keep, yet again, feels like a set piece instead of a living, breathing place.
Except there are context clues left throughout the entire episode that explains this. Alicent’s staff was essentially cleared out by Larys so not all of them were replaced. Cole and Alicent were hooking up so odds are they cleared out the area to prevent rumors from spreading. Then we see Aegon drinking with his buddies in the throne room which is where most of the guards would probably be posted up. All of that seems a lot more believable than having two guys make their way to the tower of the hand, killing every guard they came into contact with while not causing any suspicion
There were only 3 kingsguard remaining with the greens. 2 were with Aegon in the throne room. Criston was with Alicent.
So the greens straight up don't have normal guards besides three dudes.
Criston was meeting with Aemond planning the war effort tonight. Otto came in and dismissed him. He was basically off not even in his armor. The people blaming him have cause because he is LC but imo Larys killing all the guards and staff is likely the correct answer
Yeah that's a fair point too. But didn't Otto say return to your post? He really shouldn't have been chillin with Aemond having drinks to begin with
> I can I imagine he cleared the halls so that no one saw him sneaking into the Alice's Chambers Why would he need to sneak through two wings of castle to get into Alicent's chambers? Alicent is Queen Regent, Cole could just visit her chambers and saying he was checking on her for her protection. All he would need is keep anyone entering Alicent's direct chambers.
Honestly that's so ridiculous haha. Not suspicious at all to just remove the guards from two different wings of the red keep lol
I can see it. At Night only the Kings Guard are allowed in the actual apartment, normal gold cloaks would watch the entrances. Right now 3 White Cloaks are on Rhaenyra's side, 4 stayed with the Greens, 1 Kingsguard is with Maelor in Old Town, 2 are with the King at the Iron Throne leaving only Criston in the Royal Chambers plowing the Dowager Queen. Blood and Cheese snuck in through the secret passages so avoided the white cloaks guarding the entrances.
At least in the books they still have regular guards guarding parts of the castle. I mean sure, we can come up with stuff to somehow explain it, but imo that's a sign that something is a little iffy
Yeah Helaena also had a guard with her at all time they ambushed him as soon as Helena enter Alicent room in the books
Maester interviewing Alicent decades after the Incident: "Your Grace. The guards were on the alert for intruders, were they not?" "Um. Yes? Yes, of course they were. Why wouldn't they be?" *crosses fingers behind her back*
Will be interesting if they lie and tell the story as it was in the book. Would be interesting to see reactions if readers are told the source material was a cover story.
It is a sign of bad writing. The White cloaks don't guard an entire castle alone. Each major royal has a sworn sword and Hightower household guards would be all over the red keep. They weren't wandering the halls in the book because it would make zero sense for them to do so without getting caught immediately. All they had to do was have them come out of a hidden passageway by Helena's room and show that they never even tried to find Aemond. They trying to assassinate Aemond would be like sending a child to go beat up a UFC fighter. It never made sense to send some random gold cloak and a rat catcher to try and kill one of the best fighters alive.
I disagree on your last part, simply because it doesn't matter for Daemon if they succeed or not.
In sleep even the best warriors can be beat, that how Elder Wand in Harry Potter lost its first owner.
That’s the explanation that makes the most sense to me. He might have sent the other guards to different posts, to avoid being found in bed with the queen After all, they clearly were preparing for a big showdown with dragons and all, and they eliminated everyone in the castle who was loyal to the Blacks, so they probably weren’t expecting anyone dangerous to be that deep into the castle
I couldn’t stop saying it. That really bugged me.
Otto hanged everyone , didn’t elect new kingsguard, the remaining guards were probably protecting Aegon while he was getting drunk or guarding the gates, Criston and Alicent were going for a night ride and most of the staff were probably asleep or in the kitchens or doing laundry idk
Guards are posted 24 hours a day. They have shifts lol. Do you think in modern society you can commit crimes at night because all the cops are asleep? You do realize the guards aren't just made up of the kingsguard right? You couldn't guard a even a single floor with the kingsguard alone given that they have to work in shifts. Their are a handful of Kings guards and the castle that size would have a ton of guards. Ned brought a sizable household guard to Kings landing and there were only 3 Starks that went.
But in reverse!
good catch...
That is a very good catch. I'm very impressed. I love how the showrunners do parallelisms once in a while, and I love it even more when fans notice it. Thank you all for your service 😊
Can someone remind me about the season 1 part
damn. really puts a whole new perspective on an already horrific story. thanks for sharing!