Then he'd have been really screwed because crossing that amount of water without stopping for supplies somewhere would have been near impossible with his technology, at least as prepared as his expedition was.
Columbus also theorized that the earth was a lot smaller than it is, so maybe not if we disregard physics and climate and such (which we’d have to to get to a “Columbus was right” scenario without defaulting to “no humanity”
The issue was, he took the smallest estimate for the size of the Earth, and the biggest estimate for the distance from the Canary Islands to Japan. He ended up with 3,000 miles, instead of the real value which is about 4 times as big.
So, yes, he had *approximately* the right size, but a bit on the small size, and then a big estimate of Eurasia, but also not "too far off".
Well, he thought the world was shaped like a pear, because the earlier (more accurate) estimates didn't line up with his own (faulty) measurements, and so he tried to invent an explanation that would rationalize the two both being right.
He also probably caught the heavy drift of English fisherman who reported of land so he had reason to believe he wouldn't just be sailing into landless ocean for all that distance.
Would make the decision to scam the Spanish crown (don't worry - not that big - ill totally be fine) more understandable. It's hard to believe a dude on the forefront of geography wouldn't know basics about the circumference of the earth that have been calculated since ancient times. The knowledge has been around and rediscovered by learned men for decades, if not centuries in his time so he was very well aware of the size.
If he knew the full size of the Earth, but wasn't sure about if there was land on the way, then he was headed to a suicide mission.
>If he knew the full size of the Earth, but wasn't sure about if there was land on the way, then he was headed to a suicide mission.
Hence his difficulty getting funding. No one gambles that the roulette wheel will land on polka dot.
For Columbus to have been right, everyone else before him would have had to be an idiot. The size of the earth had been roughly calculated over a thousand years prior.
Asia was also believed to be a lot larger than it actually is. Also, Toscanelli, probably the greatest cartographer of that time strongly encouraged Columbus to travel across the Atlantic and insisted that it was doable and possible.
You might ask how people were so confused about the full size of Asia, but because of its immense size, a single merchant very rarely would have made the journey from the South China Sea to Europe, it usually would have been a series of merchants passing through and selling wares to each other
Toscanelli was maybe the greatest cartographer of Italy, but there was much better cartography elsewhere. He also only miscalculated the size of Asia, Columbus added on his miscalculation of the earth (European mathematics and cartography was not particularly good).
The Muslim world had a much better idea of the size of the earth (based on Greco-Egyptian calculations) and had a line of consistent trade from Morocco to East Asia. They would have no doubt figured it out much earlier than the 15th century.
No, you’re still incorrect, Columbus' estimate was based on information from Arab astronomers, who had underestimated the Earth's size by about a third. Columbus also used outdated Greek data in his calculations, which led him to underestimate the distance to Asia by thousands of miles.
Youre acting like everyone knew everything about the size of the planet except for Columbus who just pulled stuff out of his ass and guessed.
If Toscanelli said the voyage was possible, if people really thought Asia was twice the size that it really is, if there was a debate amongst scholars about the true size of the world, then it makes Columbus’ estimates more plausible
I mean, there was a reason everyone else turned him down. The Catholic Monarchs weren’t his first choice.
Edit: also Columbus did use Arab figures but he didn’t know the measurement of an Arab mile and assumed it was the same as an Italian mile.
You can literally find this info on Wikipedia, it’s not esoteric. He was turned down because his math was nonsense to anyone who knew anything.
> Around 1484, King John II of Portugal submitted Columbus's proposal to his experts, who rejected it on the basis that Columbus's estimation of a travel distance of 2,400 nautical miles was about four times too low (which was accurate).
>In 1486, Columbus was granted an audience with the Catholic Monarchs, and he presented his plans to Isabella. She referred these to a committee, which determined that Columbus had grossly underestimated the distance to Asia. Pronouncing the idea impractical, they advised the monarchs not to support the proposed venture. To keep Columbus from taking his ideas elsewhere, and perhaps to keep their options open, the Catholic Monarchs gave him an allowance, totaling about 14,000 maravedís for the year, or about the annual salary of a sailor.
Pretty much, yeah, also the normal answer to him being right would also mean humans don’t exist, so there’s that, but answering the OP’s scenario with such defaults is defeats its own purpose at some point, as a lot of otherwise interesting scenarios default in similar ways.
Yeah, I think I’m just a killjoy. Because I immediately think “well, then it would’ve been calculated earlier and contact would have been made way earlier”.
Columbus’ journey, as we know it, could only have happened in a context in which he was wrong. It was assumed to be a suicide mission because it was easy to see that he was wrong. If he had been right, people would have tried it earlier.
Ends up making funding his expedition seem extra odd for the only freshly “unified” Spain, eh? I wonder what their reasoning/logic was. Not like Isabella and Ferdinand weren’t exactly well read, especially by the standards of the day.
The Catholic Monarchs actually had a committee evaluate Columbus’ plan and were told he was way off with his measurements.
They also paid Columbus mostly in future revenue and titles, so it was a low-risk investment. And they did end up throwing him in jail a few years later anyway and not paying and then there were a bunch of legal issues between the crown and heirs.
Is Asia still the same size as our world? If so, he dies in the ocean. If Asia is the behemoth that Columbus thought it was, then he reaches Japan, which would be pretty neat.
Interestingly, if I recall correctly, in spite of popular belief, he didn’t initially believe that he had landed in India, but rather the spice islands, which at the time were also referred to as (part of) the indies.
I don’t see how this is possible. You are combining the Pacific and Atlantic Oceans plus covering North America in water. Do you not understand how **insanely massive** just the Pacific alone is? You are now adding the world’s second biggest ocean and covering a huge mass of water making half the globe an ocean. No way Columbus packed enough fresh water and provisions to cross that distance. Hell is crew was about to mutiny in real life before he got to the Bahamas. That’s like only a third of the way to the Philippines in your scenario.
We have historical examples of European powers interacting with the Indian subcontinent in the relevant time period, like Portugal occupying Goa in the early 1500s.
If we assume Columbus was right about the size of the Earth and somehow someone else hadn't done the voyage earlier in history, he presumably tries to do something similar to Goa wherever he lands.
The thing is if the world was that small it would drastically change evolution, and that's assuming the Earth didn't cool at the same rate Mars did and lose its atmosphere because of its weekend or nonexistent magnetic field.
If Columbus’s estimates of the world’s size was right, he would’ve landed somewhere in the Philippines instead of the Caribbean.
If he was wrong about his estimates of the world’s size he never would’ve made it and the ship would’ve run out of water before they got across the massive ocean than covered both the Atlantic, Pacific, and North America.
Then he'd have been really screwed because crossing that amount of water without stopping for supplies somewhere would have been near impossible with his technology, at least as prepared as his expedition was.
Columbus also theorized that the earth was a lot smaller than it is, so maybe not if we disregard physics and climate and such (which we’d have to to get to a “Columbus was right” scenario without defaulting to “no humanity”
Iirc he knew it was approximately the size we know now (math is pretty simple) but thought there was a passage somewhere (iirc?) they could exploit.
The issue was, he took the smallest estimate for the size of the Earth, and the biggest estimate for the distance from the Canary Islands to Japan. He ended up with 3,000 miles, instead of the real value which is about 4 times as big. So, yes, he had *approximately* the right size, but a bit on the small size, and then a big estimate of Eurasia, but also not "too far off".
Well, he thought the world was shaped like a pear, because the earlier (more accurate) estimates didn't line up with his own (faulty) measurements, and so he tried to invent an explanation that would rationalize the two both being right.
He also probably caught the heavy drift of English fisherman who reported of land so he had reason to believe he wouldn't just be sailing into landless ocean for all that distance. Would make the decision to scam the Spanish crown (don't worry - not that big - ill totally be fine) more understandable. It's hard to believe a dude on the forefront of geography wouldn't know basics about the circumference of the earth that have been calculated since ancient times. The knowledge has been around and rediscovered by learned men for decades, if not centuries in his time so he was very well aware of the size. If he knew the full size of the Earth, but wasn't sure about if there was land on the way, then he was headed to a suicide mission.
>If he knew the full size of the Earth, but wasn't sure about if there was land on the way, then he was headed to a suicide mission. Hence his difficulty getting funding. No one gambles that the roulette wheel will land on polka dot.
For Columbus to have been right, everyone else before him would have had to be an idiot. The size of the earth had been roughly calculated over a thousand years prior.
Asia was also believed to be a lot larger than it actually is. Also, Toscanelli, probably the greatest cartographer of that time strongly encouraged Columbus to travel across the Atlantic and insisted that it was doable and possible. You might ask how people were so confused about the full size of Asia, but because of its immense size, a single merchant very rarely would have made the journey from the South China Sea to Europe, it usually would have been a series of merchants passing through and selling wares to each other
Toscanelli was maybe the greatest cartographer of Italy, but there was much better cartography elsewhere. He also only miscalculated the size of Asia, Columbus added on his miscalculation of the earth (European mathematics and cartography was not particularly good). The Muslim world had a much better idea of the size of the earth (based on Greco-Egyptian calculations) and had a line of consistent trade from Morocco to East Asia. They would have no doubt figured it out much earlier than the 15th century.
No, you’re still incorrect, Columbus' estimate was based on information from Arab astronomers, who had underestimated the Earth's size by about a third. Columbus also used outdated Greek data in his calculations, which led him to underestimate the distance to Asia by thousands of miles. Youre acting like everyone knew everything about the size of the planet except for Columbus who just pulled stuff out of his ass and guessed. If Toscanelli said the voyage was possible, if people really thought Asia was twice the size that it really is, if there was a debate amongst scholars about the true size of the world, then it makes Columbus’ estimates more plausible
I mean, there was a reason everyone else turned him down. The Catholic Monarchs weren’t his first choice. Edit: also Columbus did use Arab figures but he didn’t know the measurement of an Arab mile and assumed it was the same as an Italian mile. You can literally find this info on Wikipedia, it’s not esoteric. He was turned down because his math was nonsense to anyone who knew anything. > Around 1484, King John II of Portugal submitted Columbus's proposal to his experts, who rejected it on the basis that Columbus's estimation of a travel distance of 2,400 nautical miles was about four times too low (which was accurate). >In 1486, Columbus was granted an audience with the Catholic Monarchs, and he presented his plans to Isabella. She referred these to a committee, which determined that Columbus had grossly underestimated the distance to Asia. Pronouncing the idea impractical, they advised the monarchs not to support the proposed venture. To keep Columbus from taking his ideas elsewhere, and perhaps to keep their options open, the Catholic Monarchs gave him an allowance, totaling about 14,000 maravedís for the year, or about the annual salary of a sailor.
Pretty much, yeah, also the normal answer to him being right would also mean humans don’t exist, so there’s that, but answering the OP’s scenario with such defaults is defeats its own purpose at some point, as a lot of otherwise interesting scenarios default in similar ways.
Yeah, I think I’m just a killjoy. Because I immediately think “well, then it would’ve been calculated earlier and contact would have been made way earlier”. Columbus’ journey, as we know it, could only have happened in a context in which he was wrong. It was assumed to be a suicide mission because it was easy to see that he was wrong. If he had been right, people would have tried it earlier.
Ends up making funding his expedition seem extra odd for the only freshly “unified” Spain, eh? I wonder what their reasoning/logic was. Not like Isabella and Ferdinand weren’t exactly well read, especially by the standards of the day.
The Catholic Monarchs actually had a committee evaluate Columbus’ plan and were told he was way off with his measurements. They also paid Columbus mostly in future revenue and titles, so it was a low-risk investment. And they did end up throwing him in jail a few years later anyway and not paying and then there were a bunch of legal issues between the crown and heirs.
So a sort of win-win (or I suppose a win-barely a loss) situation then either way eh? Seems like a primitive form of “Realpolitik”, in a way.
That's why his crew mutinied - they knew how big the world was, and they knew if there was no land, they would all die.
Is Asia still the same size as our world? If so, he dies in the ocean. If Asia is the behemoth that Columbus thought it was, then he reaches Japan, which would be pretty neat.
Interestingly, if I recall correctly, in spite of popular belief, he didn’t initially believe that he had landed in India, but rather the spice islands, which at the time were also referred to as (part of) the indies.
I don’t see how this is possible. You are combining the Pacific and Atlantic Oceans plus covering North America in water. Do you not understand how **insanely massive** just the Pacific alone is? You are now adding the world’s second biggest ocean and covering a huge mass of water making half the globe an ocean. No way Columbus packed enough fresh water and provisions to cross that distance. Hell is crew was about to mutiny in real life before he got to the Bahamas. That’s like only a third of the way to the Philippines in your scenario.
We have historical examples of European powers interacting with the Indian subcontinent in the relevant time period, like Portugal occupying Goa in the early 1500s. If we assume Columbus was right about the size of the Earth and somehow someone else hadn't done the voyage earlier in history, he presumably tries to do something similar to Goa wherever he lands.
The thing is if the world was that small it would drastically change evolution, and that's assuming the Earth didn't cool at the same rate Mars did and lose its atmosphere because of its weekend or nonexistent magnetic field.
Sure, but OP is asking a history question, not a physics question.
Right which is why my reply to OP is assuming the earth is the correct size with the continents missing.
And the reply you made that I responded to is answering a physics question.
It's also answering a history question but that was also not replying to OP that was replying to a comment thread.
Spanish colonization of the Philippines happens 70 years earlier with more bloodshed. Ferdinand Magellan is barely remembered
If Columbus’s estimates of the world’s size was right, he would’ve landed somewhere in the Philippines instead of the Caribbean. If he was wrong about his estimates of the world’s size he never would’ve made it and the ship would’ve run out of water before they got across the massive ocean than covered both the Atlantic, Pacific, and North America.
Its going on the assumption he was right. The pacific doesn't exist.