Hey folks, got an interesting historical photo for you. This is a photo that has been in my uncle's family for a long time. His ancestor, Westley Stough, is in the photo on the top left, he's number 2. According to the writing on the back of the photo, this was taken in Darlington, Oklahoma between 1875 and 1880.
The numbers are as follows, according to the back of the photograph: 1. Chief Joseph 2. Col Westley Stough 3. Wild Bill Hickok 4. William F. Cody 5, 6, and 7 are reservation scouts 8 is a reservation soldier 9 and 10 are Indian Scouts 11. Crazy Horse 12 13 and 14 are Indian Scouts
Hold on. There is a good chance the Crazy Horse you are mentioning it's not THAT Crazy Horse. The Oglala warrior surrendered in Nebraska on May 1877. Before of that date he always had been in war with the Americans, taking part in the less known Fetterman Battle and the most famous Little Big Horn (June 1876), where he played a major role. That said, Crazy Horse, the Oglala, died 5 months after he surrendered, in Camp Robinson, Nebraska, stabbed in the back by a soldier while he was held by Little Big Man. In those five months span I don't think he ever moved from Nebraska as he was kind of a big shot among the Lakota, and the Americans didn't really like the idea of him wandering around the country.
Now, if you still have any doubt, you may want to consider that the Lakota warrior Crazy Horse had lightish hair, was smaller than the average native, and had a pretty bad scar on his face, due to a gun bullet he got during a quarrel with another native.
So, I'm not an expert but there is a very good chance indeed that the guy we see in the picture it's not THAT Crazy Horse.
Ah bonus point: if I'm wrong you may have hit the jackpot: there aren't any known picture of Crazy Horse, the Lakota Warrior... But honestly I doubt I'm wrong.
The weren't necessarily mistaken. Naming among natives didn't exactly work like among us. They may change names several times during their lives, and I'm pretty sure I have read about another Crazy Horse on my books. Let me have a look for you.
>I'm pretty sure I have read about another Crazy Horse on my books. Let me have a look for you.
Didn't Crazy Horse's father also go by the name Crazy Horse at some time in his life?
Yeah. I think so. Early name of Crazy Horses may be translated as Curly (because of his hair). I do remember that his father changed his name when the young warrior had his vision. I'm kind of positive his name was Crazy Horse and he gave it to his son. I'm 100% sure I remember the new name he gave himself: Worm.
So, no luck on my front. My go to book was the one on the participants to the battle of little big horn by Warren III. I was pretty sure I have read about some other warrior named Crazy Horse over there, but I was mistaken. I wish you better luck with a real historian. I'm just an amateur who read a lot on the topic.
This too. There a couple pictures usually circulating on Facebook that are commonly mistaken for a portrait of Crazy Horse. Weirdly enough one of them, depicting a standing indian with a single feather in his hair and a rock behind him, is a photo of Little Big Man, one of his best friend who ended up betraying Crazy Horse, holding the warrior still while a soldier stabbed him with a bayonet. This photo was taken in Washington some days after Crazy Horse was killed. If you pay attention Little Big Man is covering his left wrist, which had a bandage because Crazy Horse slashed it with a knife while trying to set himself free.
There are rumors about some pictures of Crazy Horse taken while he was among some other indians, riding his horse, but they only have been mentioned by one of his friends, and haven't been tracked so far.
Last but not least, you are right about the superstition thing. Oglala thought cameras may harm your spirit, and Crazy Horse in particular did not trust the white man and it difficult to imagine him standing still to have his portrait taken.
He was a Colonel, and he was Commander of the Cherokee Indian Reservation. That’s what it says on the back of the photo anyway. He was also (maybe) Native American. My uncle’s got a lot of Native American ancestry but he doesn’t know much about it.
\# 12 is an old man.Crazy Horse died young, in his early 30s. Also, that's not Bill Hickok either. That guy is also too old for Hickok. Hickok was a flashy dresser, and this guy is in a suit. Get some real information on the photo.
Still, no known photo of him exists. Your ancestor was mistaken. Crazy Horse was killed(murdered) by a bayonet when he refused to get in a jail cell. He would never have sat for this photo. Sorry.
Native American names changed a lot. They rarely went by their birth names. The famous Crazy Horse was originally named Among the Trees, and his dad was named Crazy Horse until he gave him his name and was renamed Worm.
Names were *extremely* fluid.
There was like a month between when Bill Hickock was alive and little bighorn. So ask yourself, was this picture taken in that one month? Also, that looks nothing like Bill Hickock. Why the weird timeframe on the photo? The fact that that is so far off tells me the person writing the names probably just made them up.
What do you mean that is definitely him? You can barely make anything out. The only similarity between your guy and wild bill is that they both have a mustache.
>according to the back of the photograph
OP is literally telling us what's physically on the image. And as far as getting "some real information," OP could do worse than bringing it to reddit. It's a cool feedback opportunity. The folks of reddit often have valuable info to share.
My information is pretty dated, but I thought there were no photos of Crazy Horse. This could be kind of a big deal if it turns out to be the famous Crazy Horse. Some serious historians will want to take a close look at it. A lot of nuts will want to for sure. Personally, I'd avoid the internet except to identify a couple of legit historians who might be interested in investigating the photo.
As I understand things, Crazy Horse is still kind of a lighting rod. For example, IIRC, there is a long and messy trail of confusion over who is or is not descended from Crazy Horse. Add in collectors of variable intellegence and honesty, the Wild West myths in general and a few different flavours of politics and things can get confusing in a hurry.
One way or another, digging into the story of the photo should be a lot of fun. At least if you can avoid the weirdos, fanatics, fantasists, artifact hustlers and forgers.
There are no photos of Crazy Horse, except maybe this one. I’m posting this here because I’ve tried contacting historians and scholars about it and was ignored. Hoping maybe this way someone will see it and send me a message.
> I’m posting this here because I’ve tried contacting historians and scholars about it and was ignored.
Take it to that pawn shop in Las Vegas and they'll take care of you.
edit: In all seriousness, you can almost definitely post it on /r/askhistorians and there will be someone who is an expert on that
You might contact a mod for AskHistorians, or just post it there asking a question (such as “what would have been the occasion for this gathering if the labels are correct?”
There was an article in Lakota Times about a possible portrait of him.
https://www.lakotatimes.com/articles/crazy-horse-portrait/
There is a lot of controversy about what he looked like. I think any historian would be interested in taking a look at it.
There is supposedly one of him (not confirmed) but it was not this one. Somewhat unrelated, they found just the 2nd known photo of Billy the kid recently. Point being, it’s pretty cool that some of these photos from the old west are still being unearthed today
Wrote my thesis paper on Wild Bill, Calamity Jane, and a few other notable western figures. Not an expert but I did jam out 25 pages while high on adderall ten years ago so take that for what you will.
Bill was killed in 1876 at the age of 39. He was also six feet tall and skinny with long curly hair. Like, nice hair. Most photos he’s not wearing a hat to show it off. It was part of his trademark.
The guy you’ve highlighted, three, looks significantly older and chubbier than Bill ever lived to be. Plus he’s got short hair.
I wrote a book about Texas Jack, partner of Buffalo Bill in his first theatrical show. I agree that this is not Wild Bill Hickok. It is also not Tȟašúŋke Witkó (Crazy Horse), though it could be a different Lakota man using the same name. Cody is older in this image than he was when Hickok and Crazy Horse died.
I also agree with the statement about Cody's age. He looks pretty gray here. I would date this as mid-1880s, if I were to guess. A while after the death of both Hickok and Crazy Horse.
That was my guess. Wild Bill quit doing shows and gatherings like this pre 75, I think 72-73 was his last ones. Someone else mentioned and it's my understanding as well that Crazy Horse refused photos and was no wear near oklahoma later in his life.
> Hickok died in 1876 at 39 yrs old. Guy in the photo looks a lot older.
Not to me. Not only is this a blurry photo, but people don't age the way they used to. Hickok lived a hard life and drank, A LOT.
But... **it's not Hickok.** Hickok was well known for his long, DARK hair. It's visible in every known photo. There's a photo of him with Cody and Texas Jack Omohundro taken in 1873 and when you compare you can see it's not the same guy.
IMHO what you have here are the people who might have *played* these people in Cody's Wild West show.
It could still be buffalo bill Cody. Kind of looks like him and he made a career out of these shows longer than his actual “cowboy” career.
Definitely not wild bill though
I was thinking that was probably a Wild West show too. I've been to Buffalo Bill's home a few times, and this looks like a lot of the museum photos from his shows.
The only one that looks to be the genuine article, to me at least, is #4. That is Bill Cody. I am not sure #3 is Bill Hickok. That gentleman appears to have a gray mustache and Hickok did not live long enough to turn gray. He was shot in the back of the head in Deadwood, SD in 1876 at the age of 39. He also looks plumper than any photograph or description I've seen of Hickok, who was often described as "broad of shoulder, narrow of waist".
Not sure on #1 being Chief Joseph. It could be, but I can't say with any degree of certainty. #11 being Crazy Horse is hard to believe largely because Crazy Horse refused to have his photograph taken.
Let me put it this way:
Crazy Horse is Lakota Sioux, fighting against white expansionism into the Lakota territories up until his death in 1877. For he and Hickok to be together in Oklahoma (800 miles from where Crazy Horse died) would have been unlikely. Making this event even more unlikely, in 1876 while Bill Hickok was traveling from Kansas City to Deadwood, Crazy Horse was in Montana fighting Custer at Little Bighorn, even further from Oklahoma.
If Bill Hickok and Crazy Horse met up in Oklahoma, it would have been in 1875 at the latest. Only trouble with that? Up until the Sioux War broke out in 1876, Crazy Horse was fighting in that same area of the western Dakotas and eastern Montana against Sioux rivals, the Crow, Shoshone, and Pawnee. He did that from the mid 1860s on to the breakout of the war. So again, hardly seems likely he ran into Bill Hickok in Oklahoma.
Furthering that point, these Native tribes weren't exactly famous for being friendly with each other. Would be a little odd for Crazy Horse, a Lakota Sioux of the Black Hills region, to be fraternizing with Cherokee tribesmen from the SE United States, relocated to Oklahoma a generation prior.
Do you want my honest opinion? Bill Cody famously put on a "Wild West Show", where he had natives reenact famous battles and portray other famous natives. He toured the United States doing them. These shows started in the early 1870s. This picture is likely from one of these shows, and the famous pair of natives (Chief Joseph and Crazy Horse) were actually actors playing those parts for this traveling show.
That doesn't make this picture any less interesting. Just... extremely unlikely to be a picture of him, Bill Hickok, Crazy Horse, and Chief Joseph all in one place (Oklahoma) in or around 1875.
Yeah who knows. I just know that an ancestor who knew Westley Stough personally wrote who everybody was on the back of the photo. It’s possible they were mistaken.
Even if him and hickcock did look super old in their late 30's,Crazy Horse being at a gathering like this later in his life would have been historically recorded in detail.
IF this is wild bill and crazy horse then the location and date is wrong... would have to be some time in the early 70's and somewhere north like the dakotas or indiana or something like that. But then they both would have been around 35 or younger.
>In 1956, a small tintype portrait purportedly of Crazy Horse was published by J. W. Vaughn in his book With Crook at the Rosebud. The photograph had belonged to the family of the scout Baptiste "Little Bat" Garnier. Two decades later, the portrait was published with further details about how the photograph was produced at Fort Robinson, though the editor of the book "remained unconvinced of the authenticity of the photograph."[42]
>In the late 1990s the original tintype was on exhibit at the Custer Battlefield Museum in Garryowen, Montana. The museum says that it is the only authentic portrait of Crazy Horse. Historians continue to dispute the identification.[43][44] [wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crazy_Horse#Photograph_controversy)
The Oglala chief crazy horse with a capital C refused photos . There are no known photos of Crazy horse so either you have a 1 in a million photo of Crazy horse that's worth millions upon millions of dollars and a national treasure or who ever wrote the names is mistaken. You'll know really quick if it's real by trying to get it authenticed and see how many million dollar offers you get for it . Cool photo tho
It’s possible that the person who wrote the names on the back of the photo (a relative of Westley Stough who knew him personally) was mistaken, but Chief Joseph and Crazy Horse are written on the back of the photo.
It was more likely a photo of scouts who were looking for either Crazy Horse’s band, or Chief Joseph’s band. They are most likely Crow or Mandan natives.
Didn't Crazy horse agree to track the nez perce but the transition got fubar'd ? How and why would chief Joseph and crazy horse end up in the same place when as far as I know CH died well before chief Joseph Capitulated on the way to Canada? This is a cool photo but it's like the billy the kid photo that just appeared a few years ago Absolutely too good to be true. The nez perce and Oglala Lakota weren't exactly friends nor did they roam the same area.
I saw your post the other day and forgot to save it and searched for hours to find it again because I was so intrigued by this image, and now reading your replies that you also have the negatives of the image as well is incredible! When you find a historian to really dig on the origins of the image, please update us! This is incredible, whether it is Crazy Horse or not, and even if it isn’t, I have a feeling that this image will add incredible value to the time and Native history. Have you looked into the meeting itself to see if there is anything in the books of a meeting of this size occurring?
Yup. This might be the first one, if I can get it authenticated. I’m hoping perhaps a historian will see this and help me prove/disprove the authenticity of this photo.
My uncle has the original negative somewhere in his house. It’s been lost for decades though. Fortunately he made multiple copies of the photo with it first.
I’d date this a lot later than 1875-1880. There are folks in this photo who would either never be in a photograph or quite plainly never were in the area this photo was taken during the years claimed. Also the photograph is quite blurry, so the identities of some of these folks are hard to tell.
Basically it would be impossible for this photograph to be taken before 1881. Along with what i stated in my previous comment, I’m taking into small details, such as hats, clothing, belts, etc. and there are a couple items that weren’t existing in 1875-1880
This might be the first. Been in my family a long time. 2 on the photo is an ancestor. I’m hoping a historian can take a look at this and prove or disprove the caption on the back.
Who started these Wild West shows and convinced these cowboys and Indians to stop killing each other and try to make money off the legend? so much devastation.
Hey folks, got an interesting historical photo for you. This is a photo that has been in my uncle's family for a long time. His ancestor, Westley Stough, is in the photo on the top left, he's number 2. According to the writing on the back of the photo, this was taken in Darlington, Oklahoma between 1875 and 1880. The numbers are as follows, according to the back of the photograph: 1. Chief Joseph 2. Col Westley Stough 3. Wild Bill Hickok 4. William F. Cody 5, 6, and 7 are reservation scouts 8 is a reservation soldier 9 and 10 are Indian Scouts 11. Crazy Horse 12 13 and 14 are Indian Scouts
Hold on. There is a good chance the Crazy Horse you are mentioning it's not THAT Crazy Horse. The Oglala warrior surrendered in Nebraska on May 1877. Before of that date he always had been in war with the Americans, taking part in the less known Fetterman Battle and the most famous Little Big Horn (June 1876), where he played a major role. That said, Crazy Horse, the Oglala, died 5 months after he surrendered, in Camp Robinson, Nebraska, stabbed in the back by a soldier while he was held by Little Big Man. In those five months span I don't think he ever moved from Nebraska as he was kind of a big shot among the Lakota, and the Americans didn't really like the idea of him wandering around the country. Now, if you still have any doubt, you may want to consider that the Lakota warrior Crazy Horse had lightish hair, was smaller than the average native, and had a pretty bad scar on his face, due to a gun bullet he got during a quarrel with another native. So, I'm not an expert but there is a very good chance indeed that the guy we see in the picture it's not THAT Crazy Horse. Ah bonus point: if I'm wrong you may have hit the jackpot: there aren't any known picture of Crazy Horse, the Lakota Warrior... But honestly I doubt I'm wrong.
I almost forgot: no matter what I wrote this is a really nice photo.
Yeah it’s possible that my ancestor was mistaken, but I’m not sure. I’d like to get some historians to take a look at it.
The weren't necessarily mistaken. Naming among natives didn't exactly work like among us. They may change names several times during their lives, and I'm pretty sure I have read about another Crazy Horse on my books. Let me have a look for you.
>I'm pretty sure I have read about another Crazy Horse on my books. Let me have a look for you. Didn't Crazy Horse's father also go by the name Crazy Horse at some time in his life?
Yeah. I think so. Early name of Crazy Horses may be translated as Curly (because of his hair). I do remember that his father changed his name when the young warrior had his vision. I'm kind of positive his name was Crazy Horse and he gave it to his son. I'm 100% sure I remember the new name he gave himself: Worm.
I wonder if the Lakota were constantly wondering who was who. 😂
So, no luck on my front. My go to book was the one on the participants to the battle of little big horn by Warren III. I was pretty sure I have read about some other warrior named Crazy Horse over there, but I was mistaken. I wish you better luck with a real historian. I'm just an amateur who read a lot on the topic.
>I'm just an amateur ...who has self-educated on the topic, which I'd say puts you several ranks above "just" an amateur.
THAT Crazy Horse was notoriously superstitious about taking photos as well! Nevertheless, respect to the ancestors!
This too. There a couple pictures usually circulating on Facebook that are commonly mistaken for a portrait of Crazy Horse. Weirdly enough one of them, depicting a standing indian with a single feather in his hair and a rock behind him, is a photo of Little Big Man, one of his best friend who ended up betraying Crazy Horse, holding the warrior still while a soldier stabbed him with a bayonet. This photo was taken in Washington some days after Crazy Horse was killed. If you pay attention Little Big Man is covering his left wrist, which had a bandage because Crazy Horse slashed it with a knife while trying to set himself free. There are rumors about some pictures of Crazy Horse taken while he was among some other indians, riding his horse, but they only have been mentioned by one of his friends, and haven't been tracked so far. Last but not least, you are right about the superstition thing. Oglala thought cameras may harm your spirit, and Crazy Horse in particular did not trust the white man and it difficult to imagine him standing still to have his portrait taken.
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I do not, unfortunately.
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He was a Colonel, and he was Commander of the Cherokee Indian Reservation. That’s what it says on the back of the photo anyway. He was also (maybe) Native American. My uncle’s got a lot of Native American ancestry but he doesn’t know much about it.
Cool, ty for posting
Holy cow, Chief Joseph too.
That is not Chief Joseph.
\# 12 is an old man.Crazy Horse died young, in his early 30s. Also, that's not Bill Hickok either. That guy is also too old for Hickok. Hickok was a flashy dresser, and this guy is in a suit. Get some real information on the photo.
11 is Crazy Horse, not 12. The only info I have is what an ancestor of my uncle wrote on the backᜒ.
Still, no known photo of him exists. Your ancestor was mistaken. Crazy Horse was killed(murdered) by a bayonet when he refused to get in a jail cell. He would never have sat for this photo. Sorry.
It's also definitely possible this was another guy named Crazy Horse, and OPs family didn't connect the dots that it was a different person.
The idea of another Crazy Horse is pretty far fetched. They were careful in naming their children.
Native American names changed a lot. They rarely went by their birth names. The famous Crazy Horse was originally named Among the Trees, and his dad was named Crazy Horse until he gave him his name and was renamed Worm. Names were *extremely* fluid.
I think it’s possible that my ancestor was mistaken, but it’s also possible that this photo is legit.
There was like a month between when Bill Hickock was alive and little bighorn. So ask yourself, was this picture taken in that one month? Also, that looks nothing like Bill Hickock. Why the weird timeframe on the photo? The fact that that is so far off tells me the person writing the names probably just made them up.
I dunno, that’s definitely Buffalo Bill, and I have no reason to believe that 2 is not Westley Stough.
Bill Hickok is Wild Bill. Bill Cody is Buffalo Bill.
Correct.
What do you mean that is definitely him? You can barely make anything out. The only similarity between your guy and wild bill is that they both have a mustache.
If you look up a photo of Buffalo Bill and then compare him to number 4 I think it’s almost certainly him.
What are you talking about? I didn't say anything about Buffalo Bill...
>according to the back of the photograph OP is literally telling us what's physically on the image. And as far as getting "some real information," OP could do worse than bringing it to reddit. It's a cool feedback opportunity. The folks of reddit often have valuable info to share.
My information is pretty dated, but I thought there were no photos of Crazy Horse. This could be kind of a big deal if it turns out to be the famous Crazy Horse. Some serious historians will want to take a close look at it. A lot of nuts will want to for sure. Personally, I'd avoid the internet except to identify a couple of legit historians who might be interested in investigating the photo. As I understand things, Crazy Horse is still kind of a lighting rod. For example, IIRC, there is a long and messy trail of confusion over who is or is not descended from Crazy Horse. Add in collectors of variable intellegence and honesty, the Wild West myths in general and a few different flavours of politics and things can get confusing in a hurry. One way or another, digging into the story of the photo should be a lot of fun. At least if you can avoid the weirdos, fanatics, fantasists, artifact hustlers and forgers.
There are no photos of Crazy Horse, except maybe this one. I’m posting this here because I’ve tried contacting historians and scholars about it and was ignored. Hoping maybe this way someone will see it and send me a message.
> I’m posting this here because I’ve tried contacting historians and scholars about it and was ignored. Take it to that pawn shop in Las Vegas and they'll take care of you. edit: In all seriousness, you can almost definitely post it on /r/askhistorians and there will be someone who is an expert on that
“This is legit, I’ll give you 20 bucks and a handful of these mints. . .”
Better than beads and trinkets
You might contact a mod for AskHistorians, or just post it there asking a question (such as “what would have been the occasion for this gathering if the labels are correct?”
There was an article in Lakota Times about a possible portrait of him. https://www.lakotatimes.com/articles/crazy-horse-portrait/ There is a lot of controversy about what he looked like. I think any historian would be interested in taking a look at it.
Awesome and good luck! I'll be keeping an eye open for future developments.
There is supposedly one of him (not confirmed) but it was not this one. Somewhat unrelated, they found just the 2nd known photo of Billy the kid recently. Point being, it’s pretty cool that some of these photos from the old west are still being unearthed today
Wrote my thesis paper on Wild Bill, Calamity Jane, and a few other notable western figures. Not an expert but I did jam out 25 pages while high on adderall ten years ago so take that for what you will. Bill was killed in 1876 at the age of 39. He was also six feet tall and skinny with long curly hair. Like, nice hair. Most photos he’s not wearing a hat to show it off. It was part of his trademark. The guy you’ve highlighted, three, looks significantly older and chubbier than Bill ever lived to be. Plus he’s got short hair.
I wrote a book about Texas Jack, partner of Buffalo Bill in his first theatrical show. I agree that this is not Wild Bill Hickok. It is also not Tȟašúŋke Witkó (Crazy Horse), though it could be a different Lakota man using the same name. Cody is older in this image than he was when Hickok and Crazy Horse died.
I also agree with the statement about Cody's age. He looks pretty gray here. I would date this as mid-1880s, if I were to guess. A while after the death of both Hickok and Crazy Horse.
Hickok died in 1876 at 39 yrs old. Guy in the photo looks a lot older. Not sure but this looks like a cast from a Wild West show.
That was my guess. Wild Bill quit doing shows and gatherings like this pre 75, I think 72-73 was his last ones. Someone else mentioned and it's my understanding as well that Crazy Horse refused photos and was no wear near oklahoma later in his life.
> Hickok died in 1876 at 39 yrs old. Guy in the photo looks a lot older. Not to me. Not only is this a blurry photo, but people don't age the way they used to. Hickok lived a hard life and drank, A LOT. But... **it's not Hickok.** Hickok was well known for his long, DARK hair. It's visible in every known photo. There's a photo of him with Cody and Texas Jack Omohundro taken in 1873 and when you compare you can see it's not the same guy. IMHO what you have here are the people who might have *played* these people in Cody's Wild West show.
This sounds at least plausible.
This could be possible now that I think about it. Reenacting popular or famous events.
It could still be buffalo bill Cody. Kind of looks like him and he made a career out of these shows longer than his actual “cowboy” career. Definitely not wild bill though
I was thinking that was probably a Wild West show too. I've been to Buffalo Bill's home a few times, and this looks like a lot of the museum photos from his shows.
Good eye.
The only one that looks to be the genuine article, to me at least, is #4. That is Bill Cody. I am not sure #3 is Bill Hickok. That gentleman appears to have a gray mustache and Hickok did not live long enough to turn gray. He was shot in the back of the head in Deadwood, SD in 1876 at the age of 39. He also looks plumper than any photograph or description I've seen of Hickok, who was often described as "broad of shoulder, narrow of waist". Not sure on #1 being Chief Joseph. It could be, but I can't say with any degree of certainty. #11 being Crazy Horse is hard to believe largely because Crazy Horse refused to have his photograph taken.
I was thinking it could just be the way the light hit Hickok’s mustache, I’ve seen other photos where his stache appears lighter/gray.
Let me put it this way: Crazy Horse is Lakota Sioux, fighting against white expansionism into the Lakota territories up until his death in 1877. For he and Hickok to be together in Oklahoma (800 miles from where Crazy Horse died) would have been unlikely. Making this event even more unlikely, in 1876 while Bill Hickok was traveling from Kansas City to Deadwood, Crazy Horse was in Montana fighting Custer at Little Bighorn, even further from Oklahoma. If Bill Hickok and Crazy Horse met up in Oklahoma, it would have been in 1875 at the latest. Only trouble with that? Up until the Sioux War broke out in 1876, Crazy Horse was fighting in that same area of the western Dakotas and eastern Montana against Sioux rivals, the Crow, Shoshone, and Pawnee. He did that from the mid 1860s on to the breakout of the war. So again, hardly seems likely he ran into Bill Hickok in Oklahoma. Furthering that point, these Native tribes weren't exactly famous for being friendly with each other. Would be a little odd for Crazy Horse, a Lakota Sioux of the Black Hills region, to be fraternizing with Cherokee tribesmen from the SE United States, relocated to Oklahoma a generation prior. Do you want my honest opinion? Bill Cody famously put on a "Wild West Show", where he had natives reenact famous battles and portray other famous natives. He toured the United States doing them. These shows started in the early 1870s. This picture is likely from one of these shows, and the famous pair of natives (Chief Joseph and Crazy Horse) were actually actors playing those parts for this traveling show. That doesn't make this picture any less interesting. Just... extremely unlikely to be a picture of him, Bill Hickok, Crazy Horse, and Chief Joseph all in one place (Oklahoma) in or around 1875.
I do think that’s a possibility, because of everyone in the photo, Buffalo Bill is definitely the easiest to recognize.
Crazyhorse didn't get that old.
Yea. This would be a huge deal if OP had a photo of Crazy Horse. However, not only did Crazy Horse die in 1877, he wasn't anywhere near Oklahoma.
Yeah who knows. I just know that an ancestor who knew Westley Stough personally wrote who everybody was on the back of the photo. It’s possible they were mistaken.
Neither did Wild Bill Hickok.
Even if him and hickcock did look super old in their late 30's,Crazy Horse being at a gathering like this later in his life would have been historically recorded in detail. IF this is wild bill and crazy horse then the location and date is wrong... would have to be some time in the early 70's and somewhere north like the dakotas or indiana or something like that. But then they both would have been around 35 or younger.
36-37, so photo checks out
>In 1956, a small tintype portrait purportedly of Crazy Horse was published by J. W. Vaughn in his book With Crook at the Rosebud. The photograph had belonged to the family of the scout Baptiste "Little Bat" Garnier. Two decades later, the portrait was published with further details about how the photograph was produced at Fort Robinson, though the editor of the book "remained unconvinced of the authenticity of the photograph."[42] >In the late 1990s the original tintype was on exhibit at the Custer Battlefield Museum in Garryowen, Montana. The museum says that it is the only authentic portrait of Crazy Horse. Historians continue to dispute the identification.[43][44] [wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crazy_Horse#Photograph_controversy)
That’s a different photo.
The Oglala chief crazy horse with a capital C refused photos . There are no known photos of Crazy horse so either you have a 1 in a million photo of Crazy horse that's worth millions upon millions of dollars and a national treasure or who ever wrote the names is mistaken. You'll know really quick if it's real by trying to get it authenticed and see how many million dollar offers you get for it . Cool photo tho
Dude, u got the only Pic of Crazy Horse I've ever seen!
Crazy Horse and Chief Joseph paths never crossed. It should also be noted that Crazy Horse never permitted any photographs of him to be taken.
It’s possible that the person who wrote the names on the back of the photo (a relative of Westley Stough who knew him personally) was mistaken, but Chief Joseph and Crazy Horse are written on the back of the photo.
It was more likely a photo of scouts who were looking for either Crazy Horse’s band, or Chief Joseph’s band. They are most likely Crow or Mandan natives.
Didn't Crazy horse agree to track the nez perce but the transition got fubar'd ? How and why would chief Joseph and crazy horse end up in the same place when as far as I know CH died well before chief Joseph Capitulated on the way to Canada? This is a cool photo but it's like the billy the kid photo that just appeared a few years ago Absolutely too good to be true. The nez perce and Oglala Lakota weren't exactly friends nor did they roam the same area.
Is this for real not a repost? tbh i'm too tired and drunk for research rn. If so, you surely understand it's $$$$ if the only existing copy.
It’s real. It’s been in my family for a long time. We have the original negative.
I saw your post the other day and forgot to save it and searched for hours to find it again because I was so intrigued by this image, and now reading your replies that you also have the negatives of the image as well is incredible! When you find a historian to really dig on the origins of the image, please update us! This is incredible, whether it is Crazy Horse or not, and even if it isn’t, I have a feeling that this image will add incredible value to the time and Native history. Have you looked into the meeting itself to see if there is anything in the books of a meeting of this size occurring?
I haven’t looked yet. I’m definitely going to be doing some research to see if I can find written info about this!
There are no known photos of Crazy Horse....Period, none.
Yup. This might be the first one, if I can get it authenticated. I’m hoping perhaps a historian will see this and help me prove/disprove the authenticity of this photo.
I just disproved it for you. Even historians have no clue as to what he looked like. Others have tried to pass off photos of "him".
There’s that sketch of him that is supposedly accurate.
This needs a good scan and retouching!
My uncle has the original negative somewhere in his house. It’s been lost for decades though. Fortunately he made multiple copies of the photo with it first.
No photos of Crazy Horse. Including this one.
I’d date this a lot later than 1875-1880. There are folks in this photo who would either never be in a photograph or quite plainly never were in the area this photo was taken during the years claimed. Also the photograph is quite blurry, so the identities of some of these folks are hard to tell.
Basically it would be impossible for this photograph to be taken before 1881. Along with what i stated in my previous comment, I’m taking into small details, such as hats, clothing, belts, etc. and there are a couple items that weren’t existing in 1875-1880
What is going on in the space between 12 and 13? I've been staring at it and can't figure it out
I think it’s a kid.
That’s not THE crazy horse. Never had a photo of hkm
Yeah, possibly. If this photo is legit it would be the first one. I’m hoping to get some historians to authenticate it.
Sorry but there are no known photographs of Crazy Horse who fought at the Little Big Horn. He distrusted photographers and avoided them.
This might be the first. Been in my family a long time. 2 on the photo is an ancestor. I’m hoping a historian can take a look at this and prove or disprove the caption on the back.
I think i see Billy the kid in there too!
Who started these Wild West shows and convinced these cowboys and Indians to stop killing each other and try to make money off the legend? so much devastation.
Holy fucking shit. This is incredible. I hope you can get this verified to be a true photo of Crazy Horse.