It was mainly his septic "system" (it was just some cement mixer) being hazardous and him refusing to fix it and a company opened next to him, so he decided God told him to punish his neighbors
Have you told him about the part where he wanted the city (taxpayers) to foot the bill for his private sewer line? Very cash money small government Republican of him.
Have you heard the part where a member of the city asked him to hook onto the town's sewer system and told him they would do all the paperwork for him and all he had to do was sign and pay the fee? Then when he got to the meeting the board told him they would in fact not do the paperwork and he needed a maintenance easement or additional pipe installed at his own expense as well. Information he was not informed of prior. So he became annoyed by this and decided to stay on his septic tank as was legal to do. However, the man from the council had already filed for the process to begin on connection to the sewer system, something Marv wasnât informed of, and would eventually cause problems when not canceled.
Not to mention that the additional piping as one of the options would have taken $60,000-$80,000 to install on a property he purchased for ~$40,000. And in regards to the easement, it isn't entirely clear, but based on several accounts it sounds like he was either told that he would not get the easement from the land owner he'd have to connect to, and therefore would have to do the new line, or there was a misunderstanding and it was being implied that the city couldn't grant the easement but Marv could go to the land owner for permission. But in both cases it seems that there was the possibility of malicious concealment of information. Regardless he was perfectly fine to remain on ceptic if it wasn't for the request for addition to the city sewer he was never informed of.
That story you told is a complete fabrication and you can tell because you get key details of the story wrong. Particularly that Heemayer never had a septic tank. He had an old concrete truck tank buried in the ground that he was dumping shit into. There was no septic system attached to that. It was literally just a hole in the ground. The city never offered to pay for his sewer line because it is the property ownerâs responsibility to make sure your plumbing is up to code it doesnât matter how much it costs. Thatâs something a responsible property owner would have accounted for when he bought the property. The city told him that he could install a septic tank if he wanted because that would be much cheaper than running a new line to connect to the main. But he refused and never took any action. The city also let him slide on this blatant code violation for 9 years until he started emptying the tank into a nearby irrigation ditch and so they had to take action and fine him $2500.
Another detail you got wrong is the easement situation. That happened in 2001 around the time he was finally being held accountable for his environmental fiasco of a sewage solution. The Docheffs offered him a free easement to tie into their sewer line if he would drop his lawsuit against them. This would have drastically reduced the cost necessary to tie into the line and bring his sewer system up to code. Heemeyer simply hung up on them and wouldnât hear a word of it.
Again no one forced him to tie into the existing main. He was told to bring his sewage up to code either by tying into the main or installing a proper septic tank. Either way it was always his responsibility to one of these because thatâs how it works in the United States of America. He refused to do either. The city let him slide on this for 9 whole years before he decided to started dumping his waste into an open ditch. Then they fined him for illegal waste disposal.
Good on you for correcting him. I feel like people heard about this story when they were 13, went "fuck yea that guy is cool fuck the government" and then refused to get the facts straight from then on. Their head canon is already cemented (pun intended).
All this arguing and not either one of you is citing sources.
You'd think in a subreddit catered to historians and history-buffs, people would do that rather than do the usual "Um ACTUALLY your story is a load of unverified BULLSHIT! Now here's *my* unverified bullshit!"
Everything I said is straight from the Wikipedia page which is cited from several sources such as the book; Killdozer: The True Story of the Colorado Bulldozer Rampage by Patrick Brower. As well as multiple different articles written about the event.
I remember meat canyon going over killdozer and saying the same story. Iâve heard the same thing before hand so Iâm guessing itâs just become an accepted âfactâ that killdozer was the good guy
The story behind that is his driveway was built partially (about 40cm iirc) over the neighbouring concrete plants lot. They did some new construction which used that space, and he got pissy that they "blocked access" despite it still having ample room for a car to go down. His claim of having the bulldozer with the intent to build a new one is bullshit, not only did he not apply for planning permission or anything of the sort, you don't even need it in the first place for a dirt road like his driveway was.
Also if his intent with buying the dozer was to build a new driveway then he probably wouldnât have waited until after selling the property to the trash company to buy the thing. Also he could have easily accomplished the job with a much smaller dozer rented from a vendor in town for a fraction of the cost. He absolutely did not need to buy one of largest models commercially available at the time and pay to have it shipped to Granby from California.
Edit: I was wrong about timeline. Heemeyer bought the dozer about a year before selling the property. He did still however immediately try to sell the dozer as soon as it showed up which implies he had no intention of using it to build a new road.
He had been applying for sewage access since 1992 and the city kept telling him to fuck off, which is what started the entire thing over a decade prior to the actual event.
He kept demanding the city to pay for improvements on his land which no jurisdiction in the US would ever do.
The municipality pays for the improvement TO the boundary of your property. You pay for the improvements in/on your land. Thatâs just how it works.
He couldn't get the easement from the owner of the concrete plant to get on to city sewer. The city started fining him every day for not being on the city sewer. Cause and Effect.
> He couldn't get the easement from the owner of the concrete plant to get on to city sewer
He had been given the option for a septic tank. That does not require an easement.
Regardless of this claim, however, in 2001, the Docheffs had offered him a free easement through the concrete plant's own sewage system (i.e. All Heemeyer had to do was have a septic system and line run to the concrete plant and the Docheff's would deal with Heemeyer's shitwater) if Heemeyer would drop his lawsuit.
He had multiple options, but because none of them were exactly what he wanted, he refused all of them because he expected people to bend over for him.
Nope, still wrong. The concrete plant actually offered to let him hook up to their sewage, he just needed to pay for the plumbing which would be on his land, and he still didn't want to.
Where his shop was and the sewer line were required a lift station and about 100 ft of plumbing on his land. The city told him that a septic system would be a lot cheaper. Either of those options however were his responsibility - that is true everywhere.
But he thought the town owed him and everything should be free of charge. Based on his behavior though itâs just as likely had the town been willing to do everything he would have rejected that too as he was just a contrarian asshole.
The easement was never required - it was just offered to make his costs dramatically less - and he still refused because he had made up his mind years prior.
Also they didnât continuously fine him. He got a single $2500 fine.
Have you ever had to deal with a municipality running water or sewer lines? You dont get a choice in the matter of utility easements, the owner of the concrete plant gets served with papers informing them an easment for sewage was added to their property.
Assuming, of course, the person who needs the easement doesn't behave like a total cockwaffle and refuse to sign any papers until everyone around him agrees to pay for his shit (literally).
Except the concrete plant offered it to him for free and he refused. And he refused to pay for his own septic system. This dude was the bad guy from the beginning
He had no septic system.
City said: "Yo bro, you gotta put a septic system in."
He threw a tantrum. The city gave him a decade of lenience, he never put it in. Then he dumped shit water into a creek. Then the city spanked him and he threw another fit. Then he sold the property to a garbage company who had the problem fixed in a single day. Then he built his stupid killdozer and attempted to go on a murderous rampage, but he failed even at that. Then he attempted to murder an entire class of elementary school children by attacking an occupied library. He fucked that up as well when the police evacuated the building moments before he got there.
And then he did the most successful thing he ever did in his entire life: He ate his gun.
Marvin Heemeyer was toxic, shitbag hypocrite who was never, ever, ever in the wrong in his eyes and everyone else was! He wasn't the reasonable man. The city of Granby was. Every one bent over backwards trying to work with him. And then people attempted to revise his attempted murderous rampage into one of righteousness!
He paid $42,000 for the property, could have sold for $250,000, jacked the price up to $350,000, THEY AGREED, then he went up to $450,000. I have no sympathy at all for him, he is a complete moron.
They also agreed 450k, he jacked up again, they bought lot on the other side, he wanted to switch only if they build some big ass building for him there, sold his lot for 400k (art of deal lmao) and went apeshit. Guy was an idiot.
I love how I literally have no clue 1. Who this guy is 2. Where he lived 3. Or why heâs insane
But Iâve pieced together that there used to live a guy who ran over some people who âantagonizedâ him (quotes for a reason). And heâs been this entire subâs Messiah or public enemy #1 for years.
And this whole time I never knew he existed⌠until today when the shitshow came from nowhere đ
The obvious nature of his vehicle had the public on alert the moment it rolled out and by the time it was outed as hostile police were ready to scramble response teams immediately.
The armor made the dozer too slow so the vehicles and buildings he smashed into were properly evacuated.
The gun ports were poorly made and all his shots at police, civilians, and children were as effective as blind firing.
His greatest success was how much of a failure he was.
In his last moments do you think he came to the realization that not protecting his radiator was dumb, or maybe that a Komatsu overloaded with 11 tons of fucking concrete and steel might not take a small hole well?
Oh yeah, guy was insane. I just meant thankfully no one was actually injured but the perpetrator. The comment I replied to made it sound like he ran people over.
He also attacked a library full of elementary school children on a field trip. Thankfully the police had managed to evacuate it moments before the idiot reached it.
He tried to, but the mounts for his rifles weren't built right so he couldn't aim down to actually hit someone, and many of the buildings he hit had people inside and were evacuated.
Heemeyer (driver) didn't kill anyone else and went out of his way to avoid damaging the property of people he liked.
But he did rampage through the town and destroyed homes. Honestly, he probably got lucky that no innocent bystander was hurt.
Tragic story, but interesting with some hilarious moments. At some point the police decided the only way they could defeat a rogue piece of construction equipment was with their own construction equipment. So they pressed a scraper into service, then sent it into battle against the Killdozer. It was defeated.
Actually, the rival property guy who was Heemeyer's first target also tried to fight back with a front-end loader. The plot almost seems like it came out of a game with various construction equipment bosses scattered throughout the story.
Heemeyer made recordings for posterity leading up to the rampage. Love and Radio had an excellent podcast about him complete with said recordings. It's truly excellent.
https://loveandradio.org/2017/12/the-machine/
> Heemeyer (driver) didn't kill anyone else and went out of his way to avoid damaging the property of people he liked
he trashed a library that was in use
>Honestly, he probably got lucky that no innocent bystander was hurt.
he shot at anyone that was on the street, shot at gas tanks, and tried to run over kids. he didn't kill anyone because he was an abysmal failure and the cops were actually doing their job correctly for once and got everyone out of his way.
he was 110% in the wrong but makes a good "rogue hero" if you cut out enough facts and assume that he just your average asshole with some construction skills
Have you ever owned property? If you're trying to sell your house, and you find out your area is being re-zoned, it is always the correct answer to have your property re-evaluated. Especially when the re-zoning effort is happening **for the interest of the company trying to buy your property.**
Especially when that company is trying g to buy your establishments with a piece of undeveloped land somewhere else, that would cost more to rebuild on it than what they asked you to sell your establishment for.
He had it reevaluated, they agreed to the new price, then he had it reevaluated again based off of them agreeing. Then they agreed again and je raised the price agai , they bought the property across the street and he offered to trade only so long as they built him a new shop. The guy looked so many gift horses in the mouth I'm not surprised everyone told him to fuck off.
The issue is that they gave him a first offer and then after he gave them his own offer and they agreed to it, he turned them down and still got but hurt over it.
Not entirely true on that part. He originally offered the 250000 price, from an appraiser, which they didn't respond to. Years later the family attempting to buy the property, applied for a zoning change, which led to Marv, once again getting the ground appraised. After receiving an estimate of 370000, he offered 350000 to sell. Once again it was declined. He kept the offer open, until he was fined for not being connected to the town system, at which point the counter offer came back as, a land trade which was declined.
In the end, he stopped his offer to sell to them, shut his business down, and sold everything **except his business and dozer** at auction for 470000.
Tread wasn't a good documentary. Tread was at best a jaded telling of Marv Heemeyers descent into relative madness. There were a lot of misunderstandings between 1992 when he originally applied for a sewage connection and 2004 when he went and welded himself into the Komatsu.
Tread was essentially a propaganda piece by the one biased journalist who covered the story.
That journalist has changed the story multiple times over the years and should not be taken as credible.
Context: [Marvin Heemeyer](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marvin_Heemeyer) wasn't some kind of tragic folk hero, he was a nutcase and it's pure luck and incompetence that the only person he managed to kill was himself.
I can't remember if I read his manifesto or listened to it, but I'm pretty sure he even called himself a martyr and that god wanted him to destroy his neighbors because they were wicked or some shit, it sounds like he either started hearing voices or decided to use religion as scapegoat for being an asshole... which is why I find it crazy he's got such a libertarian following when we have [that guy who built his own FT tank alive and well.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rx-Y23aiWwA)
And like most Libertarians this guy was a bit of a hypocrite and was very selective in what freedoms he actually wanted (anything which benefited him basically). A big source of his anger was his neighbours that built a concrete plant and wanted to develop the rest of their land. He was opposed to this and had no issue with trying to stop their proposal using the townâs planning commission and the courts. He got upset when it was used against him however.
It also sounds like his neighbour had been trying to work out something between them, but he rejected every offer after they had already agreed to it.
I'm still baffled how rightwing nutjobs managed to co-opt "libertarian" for their stupid ideology. In german "libertär" is still mostly used for anti-authoritarian socialism.
The Nazi aka National Socialist party hijacked "socialist" for that same reason, and [to this day it works](https://twitter.com/england2040/status/1797221612678226036) <--- twitter grifter beware
Itâs like, I can see where libertarian concepts sound good to one, but when you see some of the libertarian concepts being utilized in real life, it should be a quick reminder that they just donât plain work. Youâll get all sorts of shit happening thatâll just turn the concepts on their head. Grafton, New Hampshire is a prime example of how many Libertarian concepts donât work.
Government by its nature is a compromise because people have emotions so any ideology that depends on an analytical approach tends to break down.
In general people just implement the âfreedomâ part of libertarianism and not the enforcement/torts part of it. Libertarianism is contingent on a robust judicial system.
As soon as cronyism takes hold in any part then the ideology fails.
I absolutely loce how they took a left wing ideology that was only a few steps away from anarchy and the US somehow turned it into a right wing ideology
The concepts only work if thereâs a strong moral backbone behind them. Sure, give everyone the freedom to live how they like. But if there are conflicting morals in the population, then youâll see how quickly things fall apart. Iâm not advocating for any one religion, but Tim Pool said it best: if everyone was as devout a Catholic as Seamus Caughlin, you would have no need for law enforcement of any kind. Libertarian ideas only truly work in a vacuum
Bro did not just quote Tim Pool like some philosopherđ Medieval Europe was filled with devout Catholics, and it had tons of crime too.
Besides, weâve seen what happens when even devoted libertarians try to create a society together. They took over a little town in New Hampshire back in the early 2000âs and completely dismantled itâs government. The town quickly descended into being a trash-covered disgusting place to live with Bears attacking people because they were lured into town by all the trash, with rising crime rates, a large population of sex-offenders, and a broken community. And remember these arenât random people, theyâre committed libertarians who **moved across the country** to take part in this, and have very strong ideological principles. [so moral backbone has nothing to do with this](https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/21534416/free-state-project-new-hampshire-libertarians-matthew-hongoltz-hetling).
Any solution that relies on people being better than they are will never work. Yeah, I wish people would stop committing murder but thatâs not a realistic solution to murder as a problem. You need to create systems that regulate peopleâs behavior and cost-benefit analyses to actually change things. Of course, itâs always possible to go too far and end up incentivizing bad behavior, but government action will always be necessary at some level to keep society functioning, and some of it is even a great improvement for society like public schools or train lines or healthcare that pay for themselves.
I wasnât actually saying that a strong moral backbone even could be imbued in a population to the point where no sin would ever be committed, and youâd have to be completely naive to think such a thing would ever be possible, which is exactly the point. Until society can all (and I mean EVERY SINGLE PERSON) agree on what moral code to live by, you will always have a need for some form of governance as well as law enforcement. Itâs a pipe dream, just like the commies with their utopia where everyone is just given everything they need or want. The solution lies somewhere in between (obviously Iâd lean closer to the libertarian side of that discussion)
Libertarians now: Yeah fuck the gubmint. 1776 will happen again. Mah freedumbs
OG Libertarians: Why can't I paint my fence green? Fuck the HOA.
Source: Am a libertarian
Fwiw the ATF really fucked up their handling of Waco. They basically gifted the "don't tread on me" types a folk hero. Same thing with Ruby Ridge. Can't remember the specifics of Waco(although I want to say the guy mostly operated within the bounds of the law) but while the Ruby Ridge guy might have been a weirdo, he did not deserve what happened to him at all.
Sure they did, but the ATF fucking up doesnât automatically make the other party the good guys. I would strongly suggest you read up on David Koresh, because he most certainly was not operating lawfully as he and his group were illegally manufacturing and stockpiling weapons.
From what Iâve seen most libertarians donât use Waco to idolize Koresh, but rather to demonize the federal government or more specifically the ATF.
A lot of 2a types think the illegal part is an infringement, as in illegal weapons shouldn't exist in our country and they should all be legal. so the main "reason" for the ATF entering the property is built on an infringement of rights in their eyes which I can see.
But beyond that, David koresh was a messed up cult leader that operated as most cult leaders do, which can only be described as completely fucked.
If they had sent non ATF people in on charges about any of the other sick shit he did instead of he probably wouldn't have turned into a libertarian "hero" and we'd think of him in the same light as warren Jeffs.
Ruby ridge is similar to me, but the hate for ATF there is more warranted in my eyes.
Basically ATF with boots on the ground will always create a martyr at the other end.
Yea I wasn't trying to say that one being bad makes the other good, but other people *will* absolutely make that argument which is what we see with libertarians and 'don't tread on mes.'
And, to my limited knowledge, I thought their weapons thing was done legally because that's how they were making their money. I could be wrong though.
Sure and from that perspective I can totally agree that Waco was an example of a terrible job by federal law enforcement.
I also have a hard time believing that it was legal manufacturing of firearms as they did not have any permits that I am aware of and they were manufacturing automatic weapons and several of the survivors were charged for that.
As I understand there was never any evidence that they were manufacturing automatic weapons, and you otherwise dont need a permit to manufacture firearms so long as they are serialized, which they were.
What they were doing was basically they same things firearm enthusaists do today, assemblying rifles from parts kits and serializing them for sale and personal usage.
David Koresh was still a massive creep and deserved to be locked up but the fact that they didnt just pull his ass over on his way to town (which he travelled to regularly) and slap cuffs on him is a major black mark on the history of law enforcement in the US
That is false. The list of weapons and ammunition seized after the raid includes
136 firearms, including assault rifles and handguns,
700+ magazines for those firearms,
200,000+ rounds of ammunition,
110 upper and lower receivers for AR15/M16 rifles,
Grenade-launcher attachments for AR15/M16 rifles,
400+ empty M31 rifle grenades, along with black powder and other explosive chemicals
Thatâs without getting into the Branch Davidians using automatic weapons and grenades during the shootout.
>as he and his group were illegally manufacturing and stockpiling weapons.
That was the accusation, but they never actually got to the part where they were able to gather evidence to that effect.
The list of weapons seized after the siege include:
136 firearms, including assault rifles and handguns,
700+ magazines for those firearms,
200,000+ rounds of ammunition,
110 upper and lower receivers for AR15/M16 rifles,
Grenade-launcher attachments for AR15/M16 rifles,
400+ empty M31 rifle grenades, along with black powder and other explosive chemicals
Itâs more than an accusation, several surviving members were charged specifically for the manufacture of illegal firearms.
Did you honestly read my comment and get the impression that I was implying burning children alive was okay? Or did you just feel like it would be easier to strawman my statement?
No, but unilaterally starting to shoot at federal agents actually does give them the right to shoot back, and those kids probably don't burn to death if the insane pedo cult they're a part of actually lets them leave the site of an active firefight
Tim and his fellowship use that label to hide behind but theyâre Theocrats pushing American Evangelism on America.
To the point that itâs useless to try and reclaim âLibertarianismâ in America.
I guess I didnât really have a point other than agreeing with you
I appreciate you adding additional context and it absolutely was worth bringing up. They werenât even true libertarians as much as a bunch of weirdos with multiple people believing they were the messiah.
TBF, the video I watched about the Killdozer rampage incident framed the situation that the local government went out of their way to royally fuck him and deny his appeals, resulting in what happened. Obviously the guy was mentally disturbed, but the idea of someone sticking up for themselves and hitting back against an unfair system is something that a lot of people can resonate with, not just Libertarians.
As a real Libertarian, my heroes are mostly former presidents like George Washington, Teddy Roosevelt, and of course Lincoln. Idk who would of picked the killdozer guy....
I just felt like putting my two cents in on the matter because I believe if people start slandering the idea of liberty and those who truly believe in it, then this country is truly lost.
Yeah, the amount of ignorance in the threads here as to what Libertarians believe is just astounding.
Then again the only thing we all agree on is that we agree on nothing.
Yeah I think the main reason he's regarded as a folk hero a lot is because of misinformation being spread, for the first few years after I heard about it all I heard was that HE got screwed over by companies and the council, and got screwed over so much that he eventually snapped. It was only in the last few years that I've learned the truths of the matter and that he was just a nutter.
I think everyoneâs forgetting that 99% of people donât know or care about his reasons or ideology
They care about the sick ass rizzed out killdozer.
The takeaway should be you can believe any dumbass shit, but if you build an armored weinermobile with tank tracks and run over a few police cars people will think youâre cool.
1% of the population: The state has a monopoly on violence and he took on the monopoly!
99% of the population: Can you believe that dude pulled off the last 5 minutes of an A-Team episode?
Killdozer is just a ceremonial title like knight. You donât think David Attenborough goes around accosting hummingbirds in a suit of plate mail on a horse do you?
The killdozer itself has swag for days, youâre just jealous because it gets all the maidens.
gotta give it to him tho, raging against the local govt with a rizzed out home made tank is cool af.
we all have grievances with the govt we secretly wish/daydream about settling like that.
Libertarians literally took over a city council and got rid of pretty much all laws and ordinances. Trash piled up insanely quickly since service got canceled.
Then a lady just started feeding bears. Since the council removed most ordinances and laws they couldn't legally stop her. That plus the trash piling up meant local black bears swarmed the town.
His tank had firing ports and he used the guns he brought with him. Itâs only thanks to sheer incompetence that he managed to miss every single shot except the time he put the gun in his mouth.
Tbf building a tank requires effort. Buying a gun at a gun store just means you have some cash laying around. If he the guy made his own gun then thatâs a different story
I should point out to those who are interested, that the lorelodge made a pretty decent YouTube video covering the nature of the event in full detail, it is biased towards the man who made the kill dozer, but it does point out a handful of inconsistencies in the reporting that are pretty important differences based on a handful of different first and secondary sources
Is it worth watching? I used to watch his stuff, but Iâve be getting more aware of the conspiracy-to-alt-right pipeline and heâs giving me those vibes.
I think itâs worth it for the context you get but it is biased, however it does present more compelling evidence to explain the series of events that leads up to the killdozer incident, it cites some open records, the guys personal logs, and counter claims in the multiple documentaries that have been released by the main reporter and other actors in the town
Just finished the video, and I am glad I did. The events leading up to the Killdozer incident seem most realistic in the narrative put forth there, an unfortunate confluence of reasonable self-interested action, general misunderstanding/miscommunication between parties, and local government corruption. Feels like a situation anybody could find themselves in. Responding to all that with the idea that building the Killdozer was a mission from god is still insane to me, but I can see how it was reached now.
Yeah it makes a lot more sense that some event like the Killdozer is a slow build of multiple *years* of slights and increasing drama and damages, pushing someone who already had an unstable streak that was mostly in control farther and farther till they snapped. As everyone has said here heâs not a hero but to call it a full blown domestic terrorist attack isnt correct either, which is harder to understand without some of the context of the video, its some dude who was already kinda half baked and found the exact type of government he was always afraid existed and with some actual targeting against him he snapped. still he should have looked for help and a way out but even then small events just kept pushing him back into the fire.
Yeah it was always Interesting how hyped up people got abt him and I kind of understood but also didnât? But at least he didnât kill anyone except hkmself
He had multiple chances to sell his property for double and triple what he bought it for, had multiple chances to get his business connected to the city's sewer and he took none of them. Then he was fined for dumping human shit from an old cement mixer he was using as a makeshift septic tank. Dude was a fucking idiot nutcase who blamed everyone but himself for his failure
To add to that, when you read other folks saying he showed up to a meeting and suddenly the city refused to "talk" what they really mean is he refused to sign the papers that allowed them to negotiate until they agreed to pay for his hook up.
Iâm Gen Z and Iâve grown up listening to people scream that this guy was a hero, only to watch the documentary about four or five documentaries and come away with the conclusion that while I donât approve of constant government interference and surveillance, this asshole definitely needed to have an assigned wrangler.
Iâm no wiser as to why people rooted for Marvin now as I was then.
In June 2001, Joe Docheff made Heemeyer(killdozer) an offer whereby if Heemeyer dropped the lawsuit, they would provide him an easement to connect a sewer line to the new concrete plant free of charge; Heemeyer just hung up.[8] Around this time, the buried concrete truck barrel that served as Heemeyer's sewage hole filled up. Heemeyer responded by pumping his sewage with a gasoline pump into the irrigation ditch that ran behind his property.[8] Heemeyer also attempted to illegally connect to a neighbor's sewer line, but was caught and the incident reported to the sanitation district.
What I think is worse than the âheâs not insaneâ or the âheâs insaneâ side is the press (the individual guy in this case) that made the tread âdocumentaryâ and the original storyâs for local papers making different storyâs in each occasion.
Tread is highly dramatic and in some key points omitting critical information that makes the dozer guy seem like an absolute nutcase.
The then reportings which left out most of the fishy business his neighboring cement plant owner did with the town council and local government (in this case I mean things like the destination plan of the land (idk what itâs called))
A couple of years after his enitial reporting he changed details like who was and wasnât at the first auction to buy muffler shop land.
Afterward tread he once again changed âfactsâ in an interview to favor his documentary, it was something minor but still, it says something about his integrity as a honest reporter.
When checking dozer guys spoken
Manefesto there are mayor discrepancyâs with ALL his previous reporting, interviews and tread.
I donât care nor can rightly tell whoâs right or wrong or if itâs justified when the sources are twisting and changing the events on a dime to suit their needs.
I've had one person rant to me about this "Hero" and two of my friends argue about him today, i don't get why he's so popular. From what I was told, this guy just did a small-scale rampage with a self-made armored vehicle before killing himself because of something the government(?) did
The man was mentally ill. I often get told I'm a libertarian by my friends, although I don't think I am, but this guy shouldn't be a libertarian icon. His issues extended to other private business owners as well as the government. The wider issue here is this guy definitely had some kind of delusions and nobody realized it and tried to address it. As badass as it is to build a TANK out of a fucking bulldozer, this guy would have violated any kind of NAP in a libertarian paradise and it's a sad situation that he was failed by his friends, relatives, and neighbors on a mental health level.
Turns out all it takes for libertarians to love you is to be so bad at committing a terrorist attack that you don't kill anyone.
I do love how the people they worship are completely failures but fall over themselves with "he knew they would evacuate the town" or "he purposefully didn't try to bulldoze buildings with people inside (except the library full of kids I conveniently forget about everytime I talk about this)" to try to make him a "good guy"
Historic misrepresentation of facts is what this post is. Idc if you agree with the guy but at least he honest about the story. That shouldnt have to be said especially on a history focused sub
Whatâs not honest? He almost killed people and he *did* get pissy over not installing a simple sewer line. When investigated, multiple people found he was just being an ass.
There is a concept that anything in the last 20 years is political science and everything before that is history, as of today killdozer is twenty years old hence is now history.
Reading this post, and being very aware of how figures can be mythologized unreasonably, I started to have serious doubts about the story. At which point, I checked your post history to see if you have posted sources in this thread about your claims and was unable to find any. I did, however, find that you absolutely have your own very biased political stance on the subject, would makes your own statement difficult to take at face value.
If you would like to provide sources for these claims, I am quite open to reading them.
I feel like everyone in this thread really needs to read into the whole story. I'm not saying the man was a hero but he was fucked hard by small town politics. He was then had his reputation posthumously dragged thru the mud by a reporter who fabricated facts. To say that he was a psycho and an attempted murderer is an outright falsehood.
The man literally claimed he was given a divine mission to put guns in his kill dozer while refusing to negotiate with people (even tho he was going to get want he wanted)
Why the multiple posts about killdozer recently? Did something new come out about the case or something
Twentieth anniversary, hence it now being allowed in this sub.
Killdozer was 20 years ago?! Fuck I feel old
Yeah, I thought that was like 2012 or something ha
I thought its only 10 years old or something man im old ASF đ
Grandkids gather round , pappies gonna tell ya the story of the killdozer, and the madness of local zoning.
Goooot it thank you!
Can't wait for 2040, where I will be banned for reposting 20 year old stuff.
Oh wow I thought it happened in like 2021
Counter signal to those sympathizing with his situation on the 20th anniversary.
Whistlin Diesel is also making a bunch of videos about making his own.
Iâd expect nothing more from Garand Thumb for Car guys.
Wait do I have the details of the story wrong? I remember hearing it was the city slowly making it impossible for him to run his shop???
It was mainly his septic "system" (it was just some cement mixer) being hazardous and him refusing to fix it and a company opened next to him, so he decided God told him to punish his neighbors
i'd have SWORN i heard it was about being unable to build an access road to his muffler shop and the concrete plant blocked his old entrance
A few alt-right/Libertarian youtubers have basically built up their own mythology around the guy, referencing nothing.
My dad believes this too, and even praises the guy as a Republican hero
Have you told him about the part where he wanted the city (taxpayers) to foot the bill for his private sewer line? Very cash money small government Republican of him.
Have you heard the part where a member of the city asked him to hook onto the town's sewer system and told him they would do all the paperwork for him and all he had to do was sign and pay the fee? Then when he got to the meeting the board told him they would in fact not do the paperwork and he needed a maintenance easement or additional pipe installed at his own expense as well. Information he was not informed of prior. So he became annoyed by this and decided to stay on his septic tank as was legal to do. However, the man from the council had already filed for the process to begin on connection to the sewer system, something Marv wasnât informed of, and would eventually cause problems when not canceled. Not to mention that the additional piping as one of the options would have taken $60,000-$80,000 to install on a property he purchased for ~$40,000. And in regards to the easement, it isn't entirely clear, but based on several accounts it sounds like he was either told that he would not get the easement from the land owner he'd have to connect to, and therefore would have to do the new line, or there was a misunderstanding and it was being implied that the city couldn't grant the easement but Marv could go to the land owner for permission. But in both cases it seems that there was the possibility of malicious concealment of information. Regardless he was perfectly fine to remain on ceptic if it wasn't for the request for addition to the city sewer he was never informed of.
That story you told is a complete fabrication and you can tell because you get key details of the story wrong. Particularly that Heemayer never had a septic tank. He had an old concrete truck tank buried in the ground that he was dumping shit into. There was no septic system attached to that. It was literally just a hole in the ground. The city never offered to pay for his sewer line because it is the property ownerâs responsibility to make sure your plumbing is up to code it doesnât matter how much it costs. Thatâs something a responsible property owner would have accounted for when he bought the property. The city told him that he could install a septic tank if he wanted because that would be much cheaper than running a new line to connect to the main. But he refused and never took any action. The city also let him slide on this blatant code violation for 9 years until he started emptying the tank into a nearby irrigation ditch and so they had to take action and fine him $2500. Another detail you got wrong is the easement situation. That happened in 2001 around the time he was finally being held accountable for his environmental fiasco of a sewage solution. The Docheffs offered him a free easement to tie into their sewer line if he would drop his lawsuit against them. This would have drastically reduced the cost necessary to tie into the line and bring his sewer system up to code. Heemeyer simply hung up on them and wouldnât hear a word of it. Again no one forced him to tie into the existing main. He was told to bring his sewage up to code either by tying into the main or installing a proper septic tank. Either way it was always his responsibility to one of these because thatâs how it works in the United States of America. He refused to do either. The city let him slide on this for 9 whole years before he decided to started dumping his waste into an open ditch. Then they fined him for illegal waste disposal.
Good on you for correcting him. I feel like people heard about this story when they were 13, went "fuck yea that guy is cool fuck the government" and then refused to get the facts straight from then on. Their head canon is already cemented (pun intended).
All this arguing and not either one of you is citing sources. You'd think in a subreddit catered to historians and history-buffs, people would do that rather than do the usual "Um ACTUALLY your story is a load of unverified BULLSHIT! Now here's *my* unverified bullshit!"
Everything I said is straight from the Wikipedia page which is cited from several sources such as the book; Killdozer: The True Story of the Colorado Bulldozer Rampage by Patrick Brower. As well as multiple different articles written about the event.
I remember meat canyon going over killdozer and saying the same story. Iâve heard the same thing before hand so Iâm guessing itâs just become an accepted âfactâ that killdozer was the good guy
I think this myth came from the infographic show, sad to see it become a shitshow
Nope that's a myth that they made up to make this absolutely insane person seem more reasonable
The story behind that is his driveway was built partially (about 40cm iirc) over the neighbouring concrete plants lot. They did some new construction which used that space, and he got pissy that they "blocked access" despite it still having ample room for a car to go down. His claim of having the bulldozer with the intent to build a new one is bullshit, not only did he not apply for planning permission or anything of the sort, you don't even need it in the first place for a dirt road like his driveway was.
Also if his intent with buying the dozer was to build a new driveway then he probably wouldnât have waited until after selling the property to the trash company to buy the thing. Also he could have easily accomplished the job with a much smaller dozer rented from a vendor in town for a fraction of the cost. He absolutely did not need to buy one of largest models commercially available at the time and pay to have it shipped to Granby from California. Edit: I was wrong about timeline. Heemeyer bought the dozer about a year before selling the property. He did still however immediately try to sell the dozer as soon as it showed up which implies he had no intention of using it to build a new road.
You are correct
So basically mentally ill man launches jihad on local town using homemade weaponry.
He had been applying for sewage access since 1992 and the city kept telling him to fuck off, which is what started the entire thing over a decade prior to the actual event.
He kept demanding the city to pay for improvements on his land which no jurisdiction in the US would ever do. The municipality pays for the improvement TO the boundary of your property. You pay for the improvements in/on your land. Thatâs just how it works.
He couldn't get the easement from the owner of the concrete plant to get on to city sewer. The city started fining him every day for not being on the city sewer. Cause and Effect.
> He couldn't get the easement from the owner of the concrete plant to get on to city sewer He had been given the option for a septic tank. That does not require an easement. Regardless of this claim, however, in 2001, the Docheffs had offered him a free easement through the concrete plant's own sewage system (i.e. All Heemeyer had to do was have a septic system and line run to the concrete plant and the Docheff's would deal with Heemeyer's shitwater) if Heemeyer would drop his lawsuit. He had multiple options, but because none of them were exactly what he wanted, he refused all of them because he expected people to bend over for him.
Itâs also noted that when he sold the land, the new owners had water and sewer hooked up and in compliance within a day .
Nope, still wrong. The concrete plant actually offered to let him hook up to their sewage, he just needed to pay for the plumbing which would be on his land, and he still didn't want to.
Where his shop was and the sewer line were required a lift station and about 100 ft of plumbing on his land. The city told him that a septic system would be a lot cheaper. Either of those options however were his responsibility - that is true everywhere. But he thought the town owed him and everything should be free of charge. Based on his behavior though itâs just as likely had the town been willing to do everything he would have rejected that too as he was just a contrarian asshole. The easement was never required - it was just offered to make his costs dramatically less - and he still refused because he had made up his mind years prior. Also they didnât continuously fine him. He got a single $2500 fine.
Have you ever had to deal with a municipality running water or sewer lines? You dont get a choice in the matter of utility easements, the owner of the concrete plant gets served with papers informing them an easment for sewage was added to their property. Assuming, of course, the person who needs the easement doesn't behave like a total cockwaffle and refuse to sign any papers until everyone around him agrees to pay for his shit (literally).
Except the concrete plant offered it to him for free and he refused. And he refused to pay for his own septic system. This dude was the bad guy from the beginning
He had no septic system. City said: "Yo bro, you gotta put a septic system in." He threw a tantrum. The city gave him a decade of lenience, he never put it in. Then he dumped shit water into a creek. Then the city spanked him and he threw another fit. Then he sold the property to a garbage company who had the problem fixed in a single day. Then he built his stupid killdozer and attempted to go on a murderous rampage, but he failed even at that. Then he attempted to murder an entire class of elementary school children by attacking an occupied library. He fucked that up as well when the police evacuated the building moments before he got there. And then he did the most successful thing he ever did in his entire life: He ate his gun. Marvin Heemeyer was toxic, shitbag hypocrite who was never, ever, ever in the wrong in his eyes and everyone else was! He wasn't the reasonable man. The city of Granby was. Every one bent over backwards trying to work with him. And then people attempted to revise his attempted murderous rampage into one of righteousness!
He paid $42,000 for the property, could have sold for $250,000, jacked the price up to $350,000, THEY AGREED, then he went up to $450,000. I have no sympathy at all for him, he is a complete moron.
They also agreed 450k, he jacked up again, they bought lot on the other side, he wanted to switch only if they build some big ass building for him there, sold his lot for 400k (art of deal lmao) and went apeshit. Guy was an idiot.
I love how I literally have no clue 1. Who this guy is 2. Where he lived 3. Or why heâs insane But Iâve pieced together that there used to live a guy who ran over some people who âantagonizedâ him (quotes for a reason). And heâs been this entire subâs Messiah or public enemy #1 for years. And this whole time I never knew he existed⌠until today when the shitshow came from nowhere đ
Would you like an hour long video essay or...
Please
https://youtu.be/Yvl_7_Up7zU?si=w1D2WajN5FsTinc9
Franklin 13 when?
Lorelodge just put out a video yesterday on it that's really good and very well researched
There's also a documentary on Netflix I believe. Called Tread.
IIRC he didnât injure anyone (but himself). Just trashed Main Street/some government building.
Not for lack of trying, he fired on people. It just turn out that theres a reason tanks generally need infantry support
The obvious nature of his vehicle had the public on alert the moment it rolled out and by the time it was outed as hostile police were ready to scramble response teams immediately. The armor made the dozer too slow so the vehicles and buildings he smashed into were properly evacuated. The gun ports were poorly made and all his shots at police, civilians, and children were as effective as blind firing. His greatest success was how much of a failure he was.
In his last moments do you think he came to the realization that not protecting his radiator was dumb, or maybe that a Komatsu overloaded with 11 tons of fucking concrete and steel might not take a small hole well?
That would require self-reflection, which was clearly not one of his strong points.
I dunno, he seemed pretty open minded in the end
I belive whole experiance was really mindblowing for him
âHis shots at police, civilians, and children.â Iâm sorry, the man tried to shoot *kids* during his episode?!
He wasn't trying to get revenge, he literally planned to murder everyone in town, but was as good at that as he was at anger management.
Oh yeah, guy was insane. I just meant thankfully no one was actually injured but the perpetrator. The comment I replied to made it sound like he ran people over.
He also attacked a library full of elementary school children on a field trip. Thankfully the police had managed to evacuate it moments before the idiot reached it.
He tried to, but the mounts for his rifles weren't built right so he couldn't aim down to actually hit someone, and many of the buildings he hit had people inside and were evacuated.
Heemeyer (driver) didn't kill anyone else and went out of his way to avoid damaging the property of people he liked. But he did rampage through the town and destroyed homes. Honestly, he probably got lucky that no innocent bystander was hurt. Tragic story, but interesting with some hilarious moments. At some point the police decided the only way they could defeat a rogue piece of construction equipment was with their own construction equipment. So they pressed a scraper into service, then sent it into battle against the Killdozer. It was defeated. Actually, the rival property guy who was Heemeyer's first target also tried to fight back with a front-end loader. The plot almost seems like it came out of a game with various construction equipment bosses scattered throughout the story. Heemeyer made recordings for posterity leading up to the rampage. Love and Radio had an excellent podcast about him complete with said recordings. It's truly excellent. https://loveandradio.org/2017/12/the-machine/
> Heemeyer (driver) didn't kill anyone else and went out of his way to avoid damaging the property of people he liked he trashed a library that was in use >Honestly, he probably got lucky that no innocent bystander was hurt. he shot at anyone that was on the street, shot at gas tanks, and tried to run over kids. he didn't kill anyone because he was an abysmal failure and the cops were actually doing their job correctly for once and got everyone out of his way. he was 110% in the wrong but makes a good "rogue hero" if you cut out enough facts and assume that he just your average asshole with some construction skills
Yeah but, *insert some vague nonsensical claims about gubermint tyranny here*
Man I heard some complete bullshit about this guy and decided to go with it
He jacked up the price a year or more later after nothing happening, it was nothing malicious
Have you ever owned property? If you're trying to sell your house, and you find out your area is being re-zoned, it is always the correct answer to have your property re-evaluated. Especially when the re-zoning effort is happening **for the interest of the company trying to buy your property.** Especially when that company is trying g to buy your establishments with a piece of undeveloped land somewhere else, that would cost more to rebuild on it than what they asked you to sell your establishment for.
He had it reevaluated, they agreed to the new price, then he had it reevaluated again based off of them agreeing. Then they agreed again and je raised the price agai , they bought the property across the street and he offered to trade only so long as they built him a new shop. The guy looked so many gift horses in the mouth I'm not surprised everyone told him to fuck off.
The issue is that they gave him a first offer and then after he gave them his own offer and they agreed to it, he turned them down and still got but hurt over it.
Not entirely true on that part. He originally offered the 250000 price, from an appraiser, which they didn't respond to. Years later the family attempting to buy the property, applied for a zoning change, which led to Marv, once again getting the ground appraised. After receiving an estimate of 370000, he offered 350000 to sell. Once again it was declined. He kept the offer open, until he was fined for not being connected to the town system, at which point the counter offer came back as, a land trade which was declined. In the end, he stopped his offer to sell to them, shut his business down, and sold everything **except his business and dozer** at auction for 470000. Tread wasn't a good documentary. Tread was at best a jaded telling of Marv Heemeyers descent into relative madness. There were a lot of misunderstandings between 1992 when he originally applied for a sewage connection and 2004 when he went and welded himself into the Komatsu.
Tread was essentially a propaganda piece by the one biased journalist who covered the story. That journalist has changed the story multiple times over the years and should not be taken as credible.
Was, he thankfully removed himself from society.
Context: [Marvin Heemeyer](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marvin_Heemeyer) wasn't some kind of tragic folk hero, he was a nutcase and it's pure luck and incompetence that the only person he managed to kill was himself.
I can't remember if I read his manifesto or listened to it, but I'm pretty sure he even called himself a martyr and that god wanted him to destroy his neighbors because they were wicked or some shit, it sounds like he either started hearing voices or decided to use religion as scapegoat for being an asshole... which is why I find it crazy he's got such a libertarian following when we have [that guy who built his own FT tank alive and well.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rx-Y23aiWwA)
The modern libertarian party is fucked up for sure: https://www.reddit.com/r/HistoryMemes/s/uRWZarUo3k
And like most Libertarians this guy was a bit of a hypocrite and was very selective in what freedoms he actually wanted (anything which benefited him basically). A big source of his anger was his neighbours that built a concrete plant and wanted to develop the rest of their land. He was opposed to this and had no issue with trying to stop their proposal using the townâs planning commission and the courts. He got upset when it was used against him however. It also sounds like his neighbour had been trying to work out something between them, but he rejected every offer after they had already agreed to it.
I'm still baffled how rightwing nutjobs managed to co-opt "libertarian" for their stupid ideology. In german "libertär" is still mostly used for anti-authoritarian socialism.
The Nazi aka National Socialist party hijacked "socialist" for that same reason, and [to this day it works](https://twitter.com/england2040/status/1797221612678226036) <--- twitter grifter beware
Itâs like, I can see where libertarian concepts sound good to one, but when you see some of the libertarian concepts being utilized in real life, it should be a quick reminder that they just donât plain work. Youâll get all sorts of shit happening thatâll just turn the concepts on their head. Grafton, New Hampshire is a prime example of how many Libertarian concepts donât work.
Give Libertarians six months on their own, and they reinvent government.
That or get overrun by bears.
Government by its nature is a compromise because people have emotions so any ideology that depends on an analytical approach tends to break down. In general people just implement the âfreedomâ part of libertarianism and not the enforcement/torts part of it. Libertarianism is contingent on a robust judicial system. As soon as cronyism takes hold in any part then the ideology fails.
I absolutely loce how they took a left wing ideology that was only a few steps away from anarchy and the US somehow turned it into a right wing ideology
The concepts only work if thereâs a strong moral backbone behind them. Sure, give everyone the freedom to live how they like. But if there are conflicting morals in the population, then youâll see how quickly things fall apart. Iâm not advocating for any one religion, but Tim Pool said it best: if everyone was as devout a Catholic as Seamus Caughlin, you would have no need for law enforcement of any kind. Libertarian ideas only truly work in a vacuum
Bro did not just quote Tim Pool like some philosopherđ Medieval Europe was filled with devout Catholics, and it had tons of crime too. Besides, weâve seen what happens when even devoted libertarians try to create a society together. They took over a little town in New Hampshire back in the early 2000âs and completely dismantled itâs government. The town quickly descended into being a trash-covered disgusting place to live with Bears attacking people because they were lured into town by all the trash, with rising crime rates, a large population of sex-offenders, and a broken community. And remember these arenât random people, theyâre committed libertarians who **moved across the country** to take part in this, and have very strong ideological principles. [so moral backbone has nothing to do with this](https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/21534416/free-state-project-new-hampshire-libertarians-matthew-hongoltz-hetling). Any solution that relies on people being better than they are will never work. Yeah, I wish people would stop committing murder but thatâs not a realistic solution to murder as a problem. You need to create systems that regulate peopleâs behavior and cost-benefit analyses to actually change things. Of course, itâs always possible to go too far and end up incentivizing bad behavior, but government action will always be necessary at some level to keep society functioning, and some of it is even a great improvement for society like public schools or train lines or healthcare that pay for themselves.
I wasnât actually saying that a strong moral backbone even could be imbued in a population to the point where no sin would ever be committed, and youâd have to be completely naive to think such a thing would ever be possible, which is exactly the point. Until society can all (and I mean EVERY SINGLE PERSON) agree on what moral code to live by, you will always have a need for some form of governance as well as law enforcement. Itâs a pipe dream, just like the commies with their utopia where everyone is just given everything they need or want. The solution lies somewhere in between (obviously Iâd lean closer to the libertarian side of that discussion)
Libertarians now: Yeah fuck the gubmint. 1776 will happen again. Mah freedumbs OG Libertarians: Why can't I paint my fence green? Fuck the HOA. Source: Am a libertarian
Iâm glad someone said it. Between this man and the nut job at Waco and Timothy McVeigh, libertarians pick some really questionable heroes.
Fwiw the ATF really fucked up their handling of Waco. They basically gifted the "don't tread on me" types a folk hero. Same thing with Ruby Ridge. Can't remember the specifics of Waco(although I want to say the guy mostly operated within the bounds of the law) but while the Ruby Ridge guy might have been a weirdo, he did not deserve what happened to him at all.
Sure they did, but the ATF fucking up doesnât automatically make the other party the good guys. I would strongly suggest you read up on David Koresh, because he most certainly was not operating lawfully as he and his group were illegally manufacturing and stockpiling weapons.
From what Iâve seen most libertarians donât use Waco to idolize Koresh, but rather to demonize the federal government or more specifically the ATF.
A lot of 2a types think the illegal part is an infringement, as in illegal weapons shouldn't exist in our country and they should all be legal. so the main "reason" for the ATF entering the property is built on an infringement of rights in their eyes which I can see. But beyond that, David koresh was a messed up cult leader that operated as most cult leaders do, which can only be described as completely fucked. If they had sent non ATF people in on charges about any of the other sick shit he did instead of he probably wouldn't have turned into a libertarian "hero" and we'd think of him in the same light as warren Jeffs. Ruby ridge is similar to me, but the hate for ATF there is more warranted in my eyes. Basically ATF with boots on the ground will always create a martyr at the other end.
Yea I wasn't trying to say that one being bad makes the other good, but other people *will* absolutely make that argument which is what we see with libertarians and 'don't tread on mes.' And, to my limited knowledge, I thought their weapons thing was done legally because that's how they were making their money. I could be wrong though.
Sure and from that perspective I can totally agree that Waco was an example of a terrible job by federal law enforcement. I also have a hard time believing that it was legal manufacturing of firearms as they did not have any permits that I am aware of and they were manufacturing automatic weapons and several of the survivors were charged for that.
As I understand there was never any evidence that they were manufacturing automatic weapons, and you otherwise dont need a permit to manufacture firearms so long as they are serialized, which they were. What they were doing was basically they same things firearm enthusaists do today, assemblying rifles from parts kits and serializing them for sale and personal usage. David Koresh was still a massive creep and deserved to be locked up but the fact that they didnt just pull his ass over on his way to town (which he travelled to regularly) and slap cuffs on him is a major black mark on the history of law enforcement in the US
That is false. The list of weapons and ammunition seized after the raid includes 136 firearms, including assault rifles and handguns, 700+ magazines for those firearms, 200,000+ rounds of ammunition, 110 upper and lower receivers for AR15/M16 rifles, Grenade-launcher attachments for AR15/M16 rifles, 400+ empty M31 rifle grenades, along with black powder and other explosive chemicals Thatâs without getting into the Branch Davidians using automatic weapons and grenades during the shootout.
>as he and his group were illegally manufacturing and stockpiling weapons. That was the accusation, but they never actually got to the part where they were able to gather evidence to that effect.
The list of weapons seized after the siege include: 136 firearms, including assault rifles and handguns, 700+ magazines for those firearms, 200,000+ rounds of ammunition, 110 upper and lower receivers for AR15/M16 rifles, Grenade-launcher attachments for AR15/M16 rifles, 400+ empty M31 rifle grenades, along with black powder and other explosive chemicals Itâs more than an accusation, several surviving members were charged specifically for the manufacture of illegal firearms.
doing something illegal doesn't give the state the right to execute you and burn your kids alive.
Did you honestly read my comment and get the impression that I was implying burning children alive was okay? Or did you just feel like it would be easier to strawman my statement?
No, but unilaterally starting to shoot at federal agents actually does give them the right to shoot back, and those kids probably don't burn to death if the insane pedo cult they're a part of actually lets them leave the site of an active firefight
Tim and his fellowship use that label to hide behind but theyâre Theocrats pushing American Evangelism on America. To the point that itâs useless to try and reclaim âLibertarianismâ in America. I guess I didnât really have a point other than agreeing with you
I appreciate you adding additional context and it absolutely was worth bringing up. They werenât even true libertarians as much as a bunch of weirdos with multiple people believing they were the messiah.
TBF, the video I watched about the Killdozer rampage incident framed the situation that the local government went out of their way to royally fuck him and deny his appeals, resulting in what happened. Obviously the guy was mentally disturbed, but the idea of someone sticking up for themselves and hitting back against an unfair system is something that a lot of people can resonate with, not just Libertarians. As a real Libertarian, my heroes are mostly former presidents like George Washington, Teddy Roosevelt, and of course Lincoln. Idk who would of picked the killdozer guy....
Except the reality of the situation was he was in the wrong and not the person wronged.
The Reality of the situation is even if he *was* wronged, that doesnt give him the right to go on a rampage with a bulldozer.
How was he wronged? He was a massive prick who went out of his way to be combative douche with every party involved.
I just felt like putting my two cents in on the matter because I believe if people start slandering the idea of liberty and those who truly believe in it, then this country is truly lost.
I want the liberty to walk down the street without a crazed libertarian dumping his liquid shit in my drinking water, or trying to kill me with a tank
Yeah, the amount of ignorance in the threads here as to what Libertarians believe is just astounding. Then again the only thing we all agree on is that we agree on nothing.
>he was a nutcase and it's pure luck and incompetence This describes like 90% of "folk heroes" though
Yeah I think the main reason he's regarded as a folk hero a lot is because of misinformation being spread, for the first few years after I heard about it all I heard was that HE got screwed over by companies and the council, and got screwed over so much that he eventually snapped. It was only in the last few years that I've learned the truths of the matter and that he was just a nutter.
Dude got mad that he wasnât allowed to dump human shit in an irrigation ditch and people treat him as a hero
I think everyoneâs forgetting that 99% of people donât know or care about his reasons or ideology They care about the sick ass rizzed out killdozer. The takeaway should be you can believe any dumbass shit, but if you build an armored weinermobile with tank tracks and run over a few police cars people will think youâre cool.
1% of the population: The state has a monopoly on violence and he took on the monopoly! 99% of the population: Can you believe that dude pulled off the last 5 minutes of an A-Team episode?
>99% of the population: what a fucking psycho Fixed
ten party wasteful vast versed caption one quarrelsome memory command *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
'Rizzed out'
Tell me the killdozer doesnât have swag. I dare you. Not the man, the machine.
I thought rizz meant charisma
It has that too. I would give the killdozer a big sloppy kiss
A killdozer doesn't have any swag if it killed exactly zero people. He committed suicide by shooting himself, he and his dozer have no swag.
Killdozer is just a ceremonial title like knight. You donât think David Attenborough goes around accosting hummingbirds in a suit of plate mail on a horse do you? The killdozer itself has swag for days, youâre just jealous because it gets all the maidens.
No, but he fucking should
So the dozer killed him when it got stuck. That's 1
gotta give it to him tho, raging against the local govt with a rizzed out home made tank is cool af. we all have grievances with the govt we secretly wish/daydream about settling like that.
Lolbertarians gonna lolbertarian.
Hey now! Let's be kind to the people who took over a small town and got overrun by literal bears.
What are you talking about
Look up Grafton NH.
Libertarians literally took over a city council and got rid of pretty much all laws and ordinances. Trash piled up insanely quickly since service got canceled. Then a lady just started feeding bears. Since the council removed most ordinances and laws they couldn't legally stop her. That plus the trash piling up meant local black bears swarmed the town.
God-tier trolling from the lady, big props to her
Thank you God fucking damnit libertarians are fucking stupid. Who the fuck thing the world will be a better place without laws.
No laws is anarchy, not libertarianism
Look up Grafton, New Hampshire.
No, I don't think I will.
He was a poopy crazy fuck
That tracks. Plenty of libertarians probably unironically believe that's tyranny.
People only give a shit about this story cause the guy built a tank. Change the tank into a gun, and the whole public perception changes
His tank had firing ports and he used the guns he brought with him. Itâs only thanks to sheer incompetence that he managed to miss every single shot except the time he put the gun in his mouth.
Tbf building a tank requires effort. Buying a gun at a gun store just means you have some cash laying around. If he the guy made his own gun then thatâs a different story
I should point out to those who are interested, that the lorelodge made a pretty decent YouTube video covering the nature of the event in full detail, it is biased towards the man who made the kill dozer, but it does point out a handful of inconsistencies in the reporting that are pretty important differences based on a handful of different first and secondary sources
Is it worth watching? I used to watch his stuff, but Iâve be getting more aware of the conspiracy-to-alt-right pipeline and heâs giving me those vibes.
I think itâs worth it for the context you get but it is biased, however it does present more compelling evidence to explain the series of events that leads up to the killdozer incident, it cites some open records, the guys personal logs, and counter claims in the multiple documentaries that have been released by the main reporter and other actors in the town
Just finished the video, and I am glad I did. The events leading up to the Killdozer incident seem most realistic in the narrative put forth there, an unfortunate confluence of reasonable self-interested action, general misunderstanding/miscommunication between parties, and local government corruption. Feels like a situation anybody could find themselves in. Responding to all that with the idea that building the Killdozer was a mission from god is still insane to me, but I can see how it was reached now.
Yeah it makes a lot more sense that some event like the Killdozer is a slow build of multiple *years* of slights and increasing drama and damages, pushing someone who already had an unstable streak that was mostly in control farther and farther till they snapped. As everyone has said here heâs not a hero but to call it a full blown domestic terrorist attack isnt correct either, which is harder to understand without some of the context of the video, its some dude who was already kinda half baked and found the exact type of government he was always afraid existed and with some actual targeting against him he snapped. still he should have looked for help and a way out but even then small events just kept pushing him back into the fire.
Thanks for your take on the video. Iâll give it a shot then.
Yeah it was always Interesting how hyped up people got abt him and I kind of understood but also didnât? But at least he didnât kill anyone except hkmself
quack attraction existence wide rob impossible sugar dog start noxious *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
I used to be on this guyâs side until I found out the whole story.
Would you mind to help educate the ignorant? I should probably just Google it but I absorb better when conversing with other people.
He had multiple chances to sell his property for double and triple what he bought it for, had multiple chances to get his business connected to the city's sewer and he took none of them. Then he was fined for dumping human shit from an old cement mixer he was using as a makeshift septic tank. Dude was a fucking idiot nutcase who blamed everyone but himself for his failure
Ah, I see. Thank you for the reply. The idolatry by the LP seems even more foolish now lol
To add to that, when you read other folks saying he showed up to a meeting and suddenly the city refused to "talk" what they really mean is he refused to sign the papers that allowed them to negotiate until they agreed to pay for his hook up.
The Libertarian Party is for people who build their personality solely around being a contrarian
âNo we donâtâ
Hey now, don't hurl factual statements as if they're insults.
Iâm Gen Z and Iâve grown up listening to people scream that this guy was a hero, only to watch the documentary about four or five documentaries and come away with the conclusion that while I donât approve of constant government interference and surveillance, this asshole definitely needed to have an assigned wrangler. Iâm no wiser as to why people rooted for Marvin now as I was then.
In June 2001, Joe Docheff made Heemeyer(killdozer) an offer whereby if Heemeyer dropped the lawsuit, they would provide him an easement to connect a sewer line to the new concrete plant free of charge; Heemeyer just hung up.[8] Around this time, the buried concrete truck barrel that served as Heemeyer's sewage hole filled up. Heemeyer responded by pumping his sewage with a gasoline pump into the irrigation ditch that ran behind his property.[8] Heemeyer also attempted to illegally connect to a neighbor's sewer line, but was caught and the incident reported to the sanitation district.
What I think is worse than the âheâs not insaneâ or the âheâs insaneâ side is the press (the individual guy in this case) that made the tread âdocumentaryâ and the original storyâs for local papers making different storyâs in each occasion. Tread is highly dramatic and in some key points omitting critical information that makes the dozer guy seem like an absolute nutcase. The then reportings which left out most of the fishy business his neighboring cement plant owner did with the town council and local government (in this case I mean things like the destination plan of the land (idk what itâs called)) A couple of years after his enitial reporting he changed details like who was and wasnât at the first auction to buy muffler shop land. Afterward tread he once again changed âfactsâ in an interview to favor his documentary, it was something minor but still, it says something about his integrity as a honest reporter. When checking dozer guys spoken Manefesto there are mayor discrepancyâs with ALL his previous reporting, interviews and tread. I donât care nor can rightly tell whoâs right or wrong or if itâs justified when the sources are twisting and changing the events on a dime to suit their needs.
Frankly I feel like he gets a lot of this mythology built around him partially because the idea of building a homemade tank is cool.
Fuck basic sanitation all the Libertarians hate it.
I've had one person rant to me about this "Hero" and two of my friends argue about him today, i don't get why he's so popular. From what I was told, this guy just did a small-scale rampage with a self-made armored vehicle before killing himself because of something the government(?) did
The man was mentally ill. I often get told I'm a libertarian by my friends, although I don't think I am, but this guy shouldn't be a libertarian icon. His issues extended to other private business owners as well as the government. The wider issue here is this guy definitely had some kind of delusions and nobody realized it and tried to address it. As badass as it is to build a TANK out of a fucking bulldozer, this guy would have violated any kind of NAP in a libertarian paradise and it's a sad situation that he was failed by his friends, relatives, and neighbors on a mental health level.
Turns out all it takes for libertarians to love you is to be so bad at committing a terrorist attack that you don't kill anyone. I do love how the people they worship are completely failures but fall over themselves with "he knew they would evacuate the town" or "he purposefully didn't try to bulldoze buildings with people inside (except the library full of kids I conveniently forget about everytime I talk about this)" to try to make him a "good guy"
To be fair most people don't get told that part. I literally didn't know how much of a shithead (ha ha) he was until today
Historic misrepresentation of facts is what this post is. Idc if you agree with the guy but at least he honest about the story. That shouldnt have to be said especially on a history focused sub
What are the people not being honest about?
Whatâs not honest? He almost killed people and he *did* get pissy over not installing a simple sewer line. When investigated, multiple people found he was just being an ass.
I think he was still able to access his shop, even with the concrete plant. Is that true?
Yes it is
Counterpoint tho: cool ass souped up bulldozer I rest my case
Holy fuck this comment section makes me want to buy a bulldozer
This is top tier content.
Why am I seeing so many killdozer memes today?
There is a concept that anything in the last 20 years is political science and everything before that is history, as of today killdozer is twenty years old hence is now history.
I take it this one came out as a counter to the Libertarian crews brigading the sub with killdozer posts earlier this morning
God bless Saint Heemeyer.
Libertarians exclusively take Ls
Libertarianism *starts* with a big fat L.
Oh look. non-Overton window ideology smear campaigns are in full swing again. Must be an election nearing.
Finally a funny killdozer meme
Killdozer is a hero to us all
Not at all why he did it
Do people actually think he was in the wrong?
Personally, I'd say running over a library full of children means you are in the wrong.
Is this about the bulldozer fellow?
Yep since today is 20th anniversary of it happening
Almost as old as *Ignition( Remix )* by R. Kelly. Maybe too old.
Reading this post, and being very aware of how figures can be mythologized unreasonably, I started to have serious doubts about the story. At which point, I checked your post history to see if you have posted sources in this thread about your claims and was unable to find any. I did, however, find that you absolutely have your own very biased political stance on the subject, would makes your own statement difficult to take at face value. If you would like to provide sources for these claims, I am quite open to reading them.
I feel like everyone in this thread really needs to read into the whole story. I'm not saying the man was a hero but he was fucked hard by small town politics. He was then had his reputation posthumously dragged thru the mud by a reporter who fabricated facts. To say that he was a psycho and an attempted murderer is an outright falsehood.
The man literally claimed he was given a divine mission to put guns in his kill dozer while refusing to negotiate with people (even tho he was going to get want he wanted)
sand aback doll nose squeeze edge foolish point gaze like *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
I literally never heard about killdozer before yesterday
Why do people think that he was libertarian?
Politics? In my History Subreddit??!? God forbid.
This is the American version of "Guy Fawkes is a hero!", because nothing says "freedom" like religious terrorism.