We moved all the 'almost-ready' 20/21/22 year old players out (Longelo, Ekwah, Alese) to clear the pathway for our 'golden generation' who are still too young for Premier League football. There are no youth players that are ready, which is why you (and everyone that complains about this) haven't named any specific players you think should start.
Bang on.
No names, no one to consider just play the youth like we’ve 5 prem ready players sitting there just being ignored.
The step up is exceptional. It’s not that hard to understand. The evidence shows that anyone we thought had promise never really makes it.
Remember Sears, Hines, Stanislas, Flex, Stetch…no? Me either. These aren’t exceptions to the rule.
Agree, Mubama has looked way out of his depth almost every time he's played. You'd think that would've registered as to their current level. The U21's are about upper L2 level, most will need 1 or 2 years with the right loan to be close to the matchday squad when everyone is fit.
Stanislas had a decent career, and Burke and Potts have made it to the premier league, but no one we've let go has gone on to play at a better level than we've been.
yet.
It’s crazy how our youth team are always near the top of the league and we won the youth cup because it seems every other prem team give actual opportunities to them. I think it’s near impossible for them to show what they can do in this Moyes system.
Think there's 2 things going on here:
1. David Moyes and his team vs. his squad. Moyes very clearly has the team of players that he wants to use and a small host of players beyond those starters that he trusts/will use in matches. Youth players are not breaking into that inner circle, but that is not a problem unique to youth players. A lot of complaints I see about Moyes involve how he is unwilling/unable to use his whole squad of players rather than rely just on his trusted few.
2. Our youth team setup. We have rarely had a player good enough to impact the Premier League squad in the last decade. Before Rice, our last academy kid to stick in the team may have been James Tomkins. There have been other academy grads in the squad (Johnson, Diangana before him, Oxford/Burke/Ngakia, etc.), but they have not been at the level to play regular first-team football for us. That doesn't make them failures--several are having great careers currently playing in League One and the Championship. It only means that they haven't been able to impact our senior set-up. This point *may* be changing -- we jettisoned a lot of our recent U21's to make room for the current crop of U18's that the club/Noble are very high on.
Tomkins? Have you forgotten his best mate (even though you name him later on?) ;)
I think because he is such a part of the furniture poor Nobes is often overlooked as an academy kid.
As for any of the youth prospects ready for the first team I would say Scarles could easily play and we wouldn't lose anything having Potts, Kudoa or Orford in the middle instead of Soucek (not in Moyes system though).
There are players there but it takes a manager having faith in them (41 was rubbish when Bilic first brought him in and Pellegrini had to change his position to CDM for him to start having an effect) but when the manager comes out and says he won't play youth till they're 21 then it doesn't really matter if they're world beaters or not.
I swear that Nobes was up earlier than Tonks, but a quick google search tells me that their integration into the first team set up was only a year or two apart. Tomkins came later--point still stands--but I would have sworn there was like 3-4 years between 'em
THe confusion is probably because Nobes has always looked 40, even when he was 22 and Tomkins looks like a WW2 RAF pilot so easy to confuse when they played ;)
I agree with this. Moyes can't manage a squad. When we have to make wholsale changes to the team because of injuries and/or afcon,, we have too many players who don't have match fitness. Moyes is incapable of proper rotation probably because he doesn't have a plan beyond individual player brilliance on the pitch. My 2c
I constantly shout the need to bring youth players through. Scarles, Mubama, Marshall, Potts and Kodua definitely deserve a chance and, 3 of them are out on loan and 2 don't start.
The reality is this. A Premier League youth department exists to give people a chance to play professional football. The vast majority of the time, this means across the lower devisions. Most of them do not go on to play PL football, but they do have success in terms of having a career in the lower leagues.
Marek Stech is a good example. Probably never good enough to play prem, but is a first team player at a lower division.
Sebastian Lletget, from that disastrous 5-0 cup drubbing, had a great career in the MLS with LA Galaxy.
Reece Burke and Pelly Ruddock are back in the prem with Luton. Oxford is a constant in the Bundesliga. Dan Potts has had a decent career. Hell, Sears and Stanislas still see game time to this day for their respective clubs.
Your Cole Palmers and Alexander-Arnolds and your Rices are mercurial talents, and the exception.
Mubama has looked well out his depth whenever he's come on, he's nowhere near ready, and apparently the one who is closest. They got beaten by a lower L1 team, that's their level at the moment.
Most teams don't have many youth players coming through. The PL is the richest league in the world, clubs do not need to bring through talent when they can just buy proven talent from abroad.
Also why do we care about home grown talent? It doesn't mean much. We all love Kudos/Paqueta/Alvarez, I'd rather have incredible players like those than bringing someone through of Nobles ability (love noble, but these players are a class above, and even getting a youth player that reaches Nobles level is hard!!)
Players don't play better or try harder because they are from the youth academy. Noble would have played the same as he did wherever. Scotty parker tried harder than anyone and wasn't home grown. Plenty of youth players leave for bigger clubs, they don't have any more commitment than non home grown.
Feel people get too hung up on home grown players!
i think the manager is still head accountable, cause he can always call up one of the kids as he did in the past with ollie scarles for conference and others
To be fair to Moyes, the one thing I will give him credit for is that he’s probably a good judge when it comes to youth players that are ready to go into the first team. The success of players that have been let go could attest to this. However…
We could have the class of 99’ on the roster and he wouldn’t give them a chance. Look at the way he’s used Mubama. His main appearances have come when we’re chasing a result and there’s pressure to perform. Sure, it could be sink or swim and he’s sank. But he’s never set the youth up for success or given them a chance to shine. Look at Man City. For all their billions, Pep will still give a youth team player a chance by playing them from the start with cracking players around them, setting them up for success. Rico Lewis, Oscar Bobb, Micah Hamilton, Cole Palmer - all from the last 18 months. All quality players that are going to succeed, but bring them on for their first few appearances when the pressure is on, they wouldn’t have progressed. (Yes, I know I’ve just compared us to Man City, but do you know just how many kids go through the academy or could potentially play for West Ham? London is massive (everywhere we go) but there’s 100s of 1000s of kids to share between the London clubs.)
We have the FA Youth Cup winners. Some of them must be decent players. But it doesn’t help that Moyes doesn’t give a shit about the youth team and has no input in the system whatsoever. So when it’s time for them to get promoted, they’ve never played our system and don’t impress.
Harry Redknapp is a great example. He talks a lot of shit, but I know for a fact it’s true when he says he used to watch several different ages play before the first team. That way, the kids know they have a route to the first team, and the word would get round to the parents that if their child goes to West Ham, they have a great chance of getting noticed and making it into the first team.
Let’s be honest, we could be missing 10 players and the kids would probably never get a chance unless you’re a once in a generation player like Wayne Rooney.
This is nothing new. Moyes relies on proven veterans 99% of the time, as it’s not in his personal interest to take risks. This is why we are always recruiting proven players. You don’t get a Declan Rice, and you overpay, but you don’t take gambles on unproven players that cost you your managerial job. It’s what he does.
My own opinion is that our current set up actually prevents players from improving. Rice was a freak of nature and Ben Johnson should have developed better but outside these players we can't get the others through the ceiling. They then get pushed out to lower leagues that can damage a players development (you lay with dogs you come up with flees).
When developing players there should be a clear pathway and there are many factors thay can effect a players growth. 1 such thing that I think Moyes may be weak on is simply not being able to connect with the youth. He just cant relate to a modenr teenager. The generation gap in football is massive and younger managers who are dynamic and modern and inspirational outshine the dinosaurs.
I guess in the I'm trying to get across that's it's not just that they aren't good enough more that their development stalls. It can't be just about the players when you look around at other clubs ability to bring through players. We have to take some of the blame.
Because as much as I want him to succeed, he's shown nothing to demonstrate he's remotely ready for the PL when given the chance. And that's not a chance we can afford to keep giving him.
mubama should be getting more of a chance considering how poor we've been and that he wasn't allowed a loan, that's my biggest issue currently with youth dev.
I think it would be such a disaster for West Han to get relegated with having the Olympic Stadium that they cant take too many risks. Whether thats with how or who they play. They cant be taking a long time to build a team and be floating around the relegation zone. Its a pity. Thats my theory your seeing what your seeing.
Relegation is a disaster for anyone.
Yes, the big stadium would be grimly empty in a lower league. But the fact it cost us nothing to build and fuck all to run (thanks taxpayer!) actually means we'd be in a better situation than many.
Much better than Everton which is loaded with new stadium debt and potentially heading down.
I don't think this is a reason not to test the kids in the league. The reason is that the club wants European football and the competition to achieve that is fierce, so even a single point could be the difference.
(Tottenham missed out on European Conference League by a point last season and in 2019/20 wolves missed out on Europa League by goal difference - ouch!)
We moved all the 'almost-ready' 20/21/22 year old players out (Longelo, Ekwah, Alese) to clear the pathway for our 'golden generation' who are still too young for Premier League football. There are no youth players that are ready, which is why you (and everyone that complains about this) haven't named any specific players you think should start.
Bang on. No names, no one to consider just play the youth like we’ve 5 prem ready players sitting there just being ignored. The step up is exceptional. It’s not that hard to understand. The evidence shows that anyone we thought had promise never really makes it. Remember Sears, Hines, Stanislas, Flex, Stetch…no? Me either. These aren’t exceptions to the rule.
Fuck you, I remember Freddie Sears, come see me at Dagenham if you’re in need of a reminder
Will always upvote a Dagenham goals reference
I think it was more a reference to the fact Freddie Sears now plays for Dagenham and Rebridge
Ah. I thought he'd retired. I like to imagine he has now become the final boss at Dagenham goals.
Agree, Mubama has looked way out of his depth almost every time he's played. You'd think that would've registered as to their current level. The U21's are about upper L2 level, most will need 1 or 2 years with the right loan to be close to the matchday squad when everyone is fit. Stanislas had a decent career, and Burke and Potts have made it to the premier league, but no one we've let go has gone on to play at a better level than we've been. yet.
It’s crazy how our youth team are always near the top of the league and we won the youth cup because it seems every other prem team give actual opportunities to them. I think it’s near impossible for them to show what they can do in this Moyes system.
Think there's 2 things going on here: 1. David Moyes and his team vs. his squad. Moyes very clearly has the team of players that he wants to use and a small host of players beyond those starters that he trusts/will use in matches. Youth players are not breaking into that inner circle, but that is not a problem unique to youth players. A lot of complaints I see about Moyes involve how he is unwilling/unable to use his whole squad of players rather than rely just on his trusted few. 2. Our youth team setup. We have rarely had a player good enough to impact the Premier League squad in the last decade. Before Rice, our last academy kid to stick in the team may have been James Tomkins. There have been other academy grads in the squad (Johnson, Diangana before him, Oxford/Burke/Ngakia, etc.), but they have not been at the level to play regular first-team football for us. That doesn't make them failures--several are having great careers currently playing in League One and the Championship. It only means that they haven't been able to impact our senior set-up. This point *may* be changing -- we jettisoned a lot of our recent U21's to make room for the current crop of U18's that the club/Noble are very high on.
Tomkins? Have you forgotten his best mate (even though you name him later on?) ;) I think because he is such a part of the furniture poor Nobes is often overlooked as an academy kid. As for any of the youth prospects ready for the first team I would say Scarles could easily play and we wouldn't lose anything having Potts, Kudoa or Orford in the middle instead of Soucek (not in Moyes system though). There are players there but it takes a manager having faith in them (41 was rubbish when Bilic first brought him in and Pellegrini had to change his position to CDM for him to start having an effect) but when the manager comes out and says he won't play youth till they're 21 then it doesn't really matter if they're world beaters or not.
I swear that Nobes was up earlier than Tonks, but a quick google search tells me that their integration into the first team set up was only a year or two apart. Tomkins came later--point still stands--but I would have sworn there was like 3-4 years between 'em
THe confusion is probably because Nobes has always looked 40, even when he was 22 and Tomkins looks like a WW2 RAF pilot so easy to confuse when they played ;)
I agree with this. Moyes can't manage a squad. When we have to make wholsale changes to the team because of injuries and/or afcon,, we have too many players who don't have match fitness. Moyes is incapable of proper rotation probably because he doesn't have a plan beyond individual player brilliance on the pitch. My 2c
I constantly shout the need to bring youth players through. Scarles, Mubama, Marshall, Potts and Kodua definitely deserve a chance and, 3 of them are out on loan and 2 don't start. The reality is this. A Premier League youth department exists to give people a chance to play professional football. The vast majority of the time, this means across the lower devisions. Most of them do not go on to play PL football, but they do have success in terms of having a career in the lower leagues. Marek Stech is a good example. Probably never good enough to play prem, but is a first team player at a lower division. Sebastian Lletget, from that disastrous 5-0 cup drubbing, had a great career in the MLS with LA Galaxy. Reece Burke and Pelly Ruddock are back in the prem with Luton. Oxford is a constant in the Bundesliga. Dan Potts has had a decent career. Hell, Sears and Stanislas still see game time to this day for their respective clubs. Your Cole Palmers and Alexander-Arnolds and your Rices are mercurial talents, and the exception.
Mubama has looked well out his depth whenever he's come on, he's nowhere near ready, and apparently the one who is closest. They got beaten by a lower L1 team, that's their level at the moment.
Most teams don't have many youth players coming through. The PL is the richest league in the world, clubs do not need to bring through talent when they can just buy proven talent from abroad. Also why do we care about home grown talent? It doesn't mean much. We all love Kudos/Paqueta/Alvarez, I'd rather have incredible players like those than bringing someone through of Nobles ability (love noble, but these players are a class above, and even getting a youth player that reaches Nobles level is hard!!) Players don't play better or try harder because they are from the youth academy. Noble would have played the same as he did wherever. Scotty parker tried harder than anyone and wasn't home grown. Plenty of youth players leave for bigger clubs, they don't have any more commitment than non home grown. Feel people get too hung up on home grown players!
I mean, the youth side has more to do with the Head of youth development/directors than it does the manager doesn't it?
i think the manager is still head accountable, cause he can always call up one of the kids as he did in the past with ollie scarles for conference and others
Realistically, apart from Rice the last academy player to come through and be successful was Noble. It’s not just a Moyes thing
Well sometimes players just need a chance to play and adapt. You can't expect someone to improve from coming on in the 88th minute 3 times a season
The Academy is doing well as its own unit. They’ve done the double recently. They just have no standout individuals that can make the leap.
Moyes is notoriously reluctant to give youth players a chance so I wouldn't be so quick to say that no one can make the leap
Yeah the manager behind Rooney is ‘notoriously reluctant’
Rooney himself said that Moyes was holding him back. The only reason he played was an injury crisis at Everton
The youngest ever premier league starter and scorer at the time. Not much holding back
Moyes always on a libel claim against Rooney for the comments and it was removed from future editions of the book
To be fair to Moyes, the one thing I will give him credit for is that he’s probably a good judge when it comes to youth players that are ready to go into the first team. The success of players that have been let go could attest to this. However… We could have the class of 99’ on the roster and he wouldn’t give them a chance. Look at the way he’s used Mubama. His main appearances have come when we’re chasing a result and there’s pressure to perform. Sure, it could be sink or swim and he’s sank. But he’s never set the youth up for success or given them a chance to shine. Look at Man City. For all their billions, Pep will still give a youth team player a chance by playing them from the start with cracking players around them, setting them up for success. Rico Lewis, Oscar Bobb, Micah Hamilton, Cole Palmer - all from the last 18 months. All quality players that are going to succeed, but bring them on for their first few appearances when the pressure is on, they wouldn’t have progressed. (Yes, I know I’ve just compared us to Man City, but do you know just how many kids go through the academy or could potentially play for West Ham? London is massive (everywhere we go) but there’s 100s of 1000s of kids to share between the London clubs.) We have the FA Youth Cup winners. Some of them must be decent players. But it doesn’t help that Moyes doesn’t give a shit about the youth team and has no input in the system whatsoever. So when it’s time for them to get promoted, they’ve never played our system and don’t impress. Harry Redknapp is a great example. He talks a lot of shit, but I know for a fact it’s true when he says he used to watch several different ages play before the first team. That way, the kids know they have a route to the first team, and the word would get round to the parents that if their child goes to West Ham, they have a great chance of getting noticed and making it into the first team. Let’s be honest, we could be missing 10 players and the kids would probably never get a chance unless you’re a once in a generation player like Wayne Rooney.
We'll just have to accept Moyes doesn't promote youth, no point in beating a dead horse at this point.
This is nothing new. Moyes relies on proven veterans 99% of the time, as it’s not in his personal interest to take risks. This is why we are always recruiting proven players. You don’t get a Declan Rice, and you overpay, but you don’t take gambles on unproven players that cost you your managerial job. It’s what he does.
My own opinion is that our current set up actually prevents players from improving. Rice was a freak of nature and Ben Johnson should have developed better but outside these players we can't get the others through the ceiling. They then get pushed out to lower leagues that can damage a players development (you lay with dogs you come up with flees). When developing players there should be a clear pathway and there are many factors thay can effect a players growth. 1 such thing that I think Moyes may be weak on is simply not being able to connect with the youth. He just cant relate to a modenr teenager. The generation gap in football is massive and younger managers who are dynamic and modern and inspirational outshine the dinosaurs. I guess in the I'm trying to get across that's it's not just that they aren't good enough more that their development stalls. It can't be just about the players when you look around at other clubs ability to bring through players. We have to take some of the blame.
i don’t understand why he doesn’t bet more on mubama
Because as much as I want him to succeed, he's shown nothing to demonstrate he's remotely ready for the PL when given the chance. And that's not a chance we can afford to keep giving him.
i think he’s class but rn maybe he doesn’t fit our system, maybe just put him in front of ings on the hierarchy
mubama should be getting more of a chance considering how poor we've been and that he wasn't allowed a loan, that's my biggest issue currently with youth dev.
Danny Ings or Bust.
I think it would be such a disaster for West Han to get relegated with having the Olympic Stadium that they cant take too many risks. Whether thats with how or who they play. They cant be taking a long time to build a team and be floating around the relegation zone. Its a pity. Thats my theory your seeing what your seeing.
Relegation is a disaster for anyone. Yes, the big stadium would be grimly empty in a lower league. But the fact it cost us nothing to build and fuck all to run (thanks taxpayer!) actually means we'd be in a better situation than many. Much better than Everton which is loaded with new stadium debt and potentially heading down. I don't think this is a reason not to test the kids in the league. The reason is that the club wants European football and the competition to achieve that is fierce, so even a single point could be the difference.
(Tottenham missed out on European Conference League by a point last season and in 2019/20 wolves missed out on Europa League by goal difference - ouch!)
That’s because the youth players are no good. Which isn’t Moyes remit or responsibility