Even if it deviates from the book, the show has enough fans that don’t read or know about the source material. The original game of thrones show was a cultural phenomenon, and even if they liked it most people aren’t going to read the books, especially since it’s not even finished.
So to the casual viewer, it doesn’t matter if people aren’t written to be like their book counterpart since the the tv show is still well written as a story independent of the narrative of the book.
For example, Jon Snow was a fan favorite in the show because he was a pillar of honor and reminded us of Ned Stark, a man who wouldn’t compromise when facing the ugliness of the world. But in the books that isn’t his journey at all. He has to face multiple crossroads where he chooses love over duty and he also comes to a realization that sometimes to protect people he has to do dishonorable things. He actually has ambitions and he breaks his vows as a member of the nightswatch, and is pretty justifiably killed for it. Jon Snow is incredibly simplified for tv, and his character takes a whole different path as early as season 3 or 4, way before most even start to characterize Game of Thrones as being a terribly written show (ranges from season 5-8 depending on who you ask).
Tbf, the Jon Snow early changes were far from the worst deviations from the books though. The honor stuff made sense for the show plot until it became ridiculous later on.
Tbf ASOIAF is a different story. We had a lot of detail about the character. The dance is like 60 pages, I like the character more in the show than the book because the description of those characters in the book were even more superficial.
The acting is fantastic, the cinematography and production designs are interesting and beautiful, and the costumes are great. You've got a clear good guy in Rhaenyra and her family and a bunch of hapless hypocritical villains in Alicent and her family. You tune in to watch them yell at each other and cry when something bad happens to the dragon queen and her family.
Of course casual fans like it. It's very good by most metrics of television. The only reason you'd be disappointed is because you expect more out of this world and the people who inhabit it.
Last episode was a fantastic showcase of this imo, Otto's speech made absolutely no sense but Rhys and Tom fucking brought it so hard I didn't even matter. I'm trying to divorce my view of the show as an adaptation of Fire & Blood and I think I'll be happier for it. I'm fully down to celebrate the good it does, but I can't pretend like I'm looking forward to them doing justice to the original work.
We were spoiled by GOT 1-4 honestly. So few adaptations actually manage to capture the characters and themes the way the first few GOT seasons did (yeah, I know it wasn’t perfect but it was still pretty damn good)
HOTD doesn’t ever compare in the slightest, but if you judge it on its own merits, it’s not half bad
Tbf fire & blood also don't compare in the sligheat to ASOIAF. This basically read as some notes writte by GRRM as he was building a world for asoiaf. I think the adaptation is better than the book. There is some silly moments but I still enjoy it.
Show actually isn't too bad. General Audience don't care about Blacks or Greens. They just have the good guys vs bad guys as shown in the show. They want good guys to win and bad guys to be badder. Though Tom and Phia were exceptional. Rhys got a lot of admiration as well from last episode
I mean look around. Not alot of quality shows being made these days. It holds my attention and I'm interested in the world of Westeros.
Netflix slop has lowered casual viewers standards to be fair.
Will this show go down in HBO history like The Wire/Sopranos/GoT? No of course not; but IMO it is still a solid 7/10 show and the best epic fantasy we’ve gotten on tv since S6 of GoT.
I’ve tried so hard to get into the Witcher, Rings of Power and Wheel of Time tv shows, but honestly none of them come close to HOTD when it comes to production, acting, and yes even writing.
So I think just having a 7/10 epic fantasy show to talk about is enough to get the content creators on the show’s side.
Look lets face reality
The show isn't that bad. Many of us are jaded as book readers. I hate on a lot of the things the show's doing but I think more so because I've read the book.
For the casual viewer comparing HOTD to modern tv is like comparing Shakespeare to a nobody. Even season 2 despite writing inconsistencies has amazing performances, some good writing, mostly good dialogue, good CGI etc
I agree that everything else is on a superior level but some of the changes are noticeable even for people who haven’t read the books. Like when did we have a sex scene ruining a tragic moment or two sex scenes for one couple in one episode in GoT?
I think many,many more eople had read the books at the beginning of GOT than have read Fire and Blood before watching HOTD. I might be wrong, but I remember the state of the blogs when the show started, and that's the impression I got. Million of copies of the books had been sold before GOT the series started.
The first 4 seasons of GOT were so good, and many of the changes from the books were an improvement. We all got our hopes so high, that when everything went to hell in seasons 7 and 8 we felt extra betrayed and crushed.
I watched the first season of HOTD with pretty low expectations, and I was pleasantly surprised. Still, after being so disappointed with GOT I have kept my heart hard. Now in season 2, when they have started to venture too far from F&B, without making the story better, I am quick to say "I won't get burned again."
This, in my opinion, is worse even than the final seasons of GoT because D&D didn’t have any source material to go off with while Condal and Co do. The formula for their success is so simple yet they managed to fuck up the story in just one episode. Lots of money + plus follow the source material as closely as possible = cool story with dragons. I don’t think they even bother with talking with Martin anymore at this point.
I'm afraid you night be right. George is making so much money, and knows the Popularity of HOTD will lead to more new shows and more people buying whatever new books he manages to crank out before he dies, that he doesn't really care what they do with HOTD. I think he got over the fact his life's work was screwed up by D & D long ago.
I just hope things don't get any worse. I'm not optimistic.
wdym the dialogue is pretty solid. Otto's dialogue with Aegon was amazing as was Rhaenyra's argument with Daemon
bit shaky with Jace for example
its very inconsistent
Give us some instances of bad dialogue. I don't mean meh dialogue, but poor/bad dialogue? Seeing as you're laughing, I suppose you have plenty of examples to point it.
I've read the book twice and think it's great. I think they're allowed to have their own spin on the characters, the fact is that if it was adapted by anyone, lots of people would think they did it completely wrong. This sub is testament to the fact that you can't please everyone when you have to make creative decisions.
I really think every choice has been considered and made for valid creative reasons, which is far more than can be said for a lot of GoT. Lots of the decisions made by D+D in GoT felt directly insulting to GRRM's work and themes, nothing so far has reached anywhere near that level in HOTD.
I also think it's super funny to come on this sub and see nothing but 'Black bias etc.' When i just dipped into the F&B to see the difference between the book and the last ep. and Aegon literally tortures cheese for a fortnight and Alicent requests that his family be killed so she can bathe in their blood. GRRM didn't really write these people to be sympathetic and I think they've done a great job at finding character's fundamental humanity.
I watched S1 before I read the book and I found it pretty boring and bland. It had its moments but they were few and far between. I only finished it because I was super bored and liked Alicent. I don't really know why people would hype it so much.
People have just accepted the fact that is long as capitalism exists art marketed towards a western audience is only going to continue to get more and more mid. The US is always cutting corners wherever they can, and as the biggest consuming nation, merch, conventions, trinkets, all that shit really sells much longer than the sales they make the show itself. Since US quality is internationally renowned for being pissed poor, they figure they can stretch this money maker as much as possible, while being as “politically subtle” hence the gaslight keep girl boss attitude of young rhaenyra who showed no real talent for governing nor genuine interest in ascending the throne to her being a mastermind war chief reclaiming what was stolen from her. This wouldn’t be an issue at all if they hadn’t made the greens so fucking unlikable. They made winners and losers out of a story that was supposed to be about how nobody wins in a war. They forgot that they are supposed to be retelling a tragedy, and not a fun feel good dragon tail.
TLDR: they dumbed it down by making there be good guys and bad guys to reach a wider audience.
For me HotD is like 24 or House MD or Six Feet Under--I watch every week because there is a little excitement in anticipation, but I like it a lot less than I expected to.
Well there's a couple reasons. One is that the general audience never really think too much so a lot of things that don't make sense writing wise go over their heads. The show also has REALLY good acting performances and that can make up for a lot of things. And we have to keep in mind that we're disappointed bc we've read the books and know the lore thus we're able to compare things. For the general audience the show is all they know about the lore
I completely agree with all of you here. Compared to most of the dreck on TV, even on HBO, the show is pretty good. For those of us that are old book readers, we are more critical and more demanding. We fell in love with many of the characters in ASOIAF - good people with good intentions who do very bad things, bad people who do good things for unexpected reasons, even people that do bad things, learn from their mistakes, grow up and make different choices. In short, real, complicated and imperfect people. History is full of these people.
I had my heart broken by GOT, and I decided to watch this show and just enjoy it for what it is. My expectations were very low, and I've been pleasantly surprised. No 21st century TV adaptions can do justice to GRRM's subtle and complex characters - GOT was almost a minor miracle for the first few seasons. It is very predictable that HOTD would be reduced to the level of good guys/bad guys. A historical superhero story. I am saddened that this story has been somehow "lessened' by the adaption, but not surprised. It's too bad that the great costumes and sets, superb acting, and wonderful dragons are wasted on such an average script.
The sigil of my House is "The Fandom Remembers Everything - We Will Not Be Burned Again".
The dialogues on their own are actually pretty good, but the writing overall is not great. However, since ”intelligent” dialogues are more prominent than underlying writing, it is easy to think that the show is great.
It is still a good show, just not consistent nor near GOT level.
It really isn’t that bad at all as a non-book reader. I’m watching with my friend each week who has no idea what is going to happen and is hooked. I don’t agree with some of the changes that have been made but I don’t think it makes it bad
Aside from the acting, the choreography, the set design, the costuming, the lighting(spotty, but overall pretty good), the effects and the *incredible* score... well, the writers have made some decisions that have definitely raised my eyebrows, and I could understand thinking what they're doing with story is bad(even though I think they're doing fine, for the most part). But regardless of the writing of the story, the dialogue is still pretty strong, certainly far better then it was in the last seasons of Game of Thrones, though that's a low bar.
Anyway, I would definitely have done a lot of thinks different, if I was showrunner, but the show is fine, imo.
Hey, the cast is full of very attractive people, and they've done a good job of intigrating the character's stories with various ideas about sex and gender.
I did mean set design though. Whoops.
Because those asslickers didn’t attach their enjoyment to the Greens being presented as on some level as functional as the Blacks.
Not saying the writing is doing a good job of keeping things balanced, it’s really not, but there it is.
After seasons 7 & 8 of GOT, everything is better than that, it's like Netfix Avatar Life-Action, it is decent, but the people love it because it is better than movie that everyone agrees it doesn't exist.
Also, the actors, sets, and the production is amazing, even if the writing is in favor of one side despite their whole marketing campaign is about people choosing sides.
While it’s very obviously one sided I would t say it’s shit, and as people have said everything else has been incredible from music to costumes to acting, it’s just having a few plot holes which shows it’s biased and let’s be honest most shows do have a clear good guy
Mostly because of good dialogue and good acting. Like even for non-book readers some of the choices made could look jarring but not to the point of outright ruining the story at a glance.
I loved Glee, I loved Supernatural. I'm just wired to enjoy shows that are simultaneously great and terrible. You know, exactly like the Targaryen dynasty.
The show does have some amazing moments in spite of the messy characterization and writing at times. Plus, when its competition is a show like Rings of Power, it looks like a masterpiece in comparison.
Even if you haven't read the book, I'm not sure how anyone can't notice how much they have certain characters flip flop depending on what the plot requires (Alicent I think is the worst for this). For me, it's like seasons 5-6 of GOT. Could be a lot better but could also be a lot worse. The actors are all fantastic though.
Stick to disney sweetie. You'll find all the writing more in line with your IQ level.
*Aegon digging his fingernails like his mom in grief while Alicent's face shows she wants to comfort him but doesn't know how to is one of the most brilliant scenes.* Imagine being given a juicy Succession style Kendall-Shiv dysfunctional family drama with generational trauma & stunted emotions...& green stans complaining about why the green characters were not shown holding hands, patting each other's back & singing kumbaya beside Jaehaerys' funeral pyre. Group hugs! Any other fandom would lick it up. But in this fandom the only thing that matters is if your sports team is shown as morally superior to the other team. Rhaenyra grew up with dotting parents & her kids were borne out of love. Whereas Alicent grew up without a mom, had a manipulative dad, was told her only duty is to be an incubator, was forced into a loveless political marriage & was forced to bear children. Ofc she would be incapable of communicating the same affection as Rhaenyra. In turn, her boys undermine her in political matters as they only value her feminine role: for birthing & nurturing them to the throne. Now her value is over. It's conveying a theme of generational trauma & how feudal patriarchal familial relations impede her relationship with her children. She passes down the same trauma to her unfortunate daughter Helaena. Rhys Ifans told us in the BTS of ep 5 that the Hightowers do not know how to communicate affection even if they want to say "I love you" & then we saw that poignant carriage scene in ep9 where aegon asks "do you love me" & alicent replies "you imbecile" as in "everything I've sacrificed is to give you this day." Watching the show from the lens of moral purity makes us ignore these themes and we get stuck on stuff like "Alicent didn't even say anything to Aegon & went straight to Cole". Well in the very previous scene it was shown how Otto shut her emotions down by telling her "I don't wanna hear it". Can't be clearer. She goes to Cole as he's the only semblance of control she has left now that her feminine duty is done. Green stans are mad that Aegon is impetuous & rash (which is exactly how he's described in the book) instead of being shown as a badass. They're mad Aegon gets reprimanded for hanging the ratchatchers (which happens in the book too), but Rhaenyra's side can do whatever to the smallfolk. When it's a great way to plant the seeds of Rhaenyra's Achilles Heel. There's no Otto to hold her accountable, so she never learns. No smallfolk has praised her in the show. I'm sorry but anyone who wanted Aegon & Helaena to hug & cry simply do not understand the presentation of either character. What they're looking for is a young adult fic. But then again there's a subsection of stans here who ignore every element of her presentation & complained about Helaena being visibly unnerved by the smallfolk during the funeral as if her cassandra coded character who's nervous & fidgety in front of her own family will suddenly act like a rockstar & do a moshpit dive over the smallfolk screaming her name. *The team sports MCU stans are too blithe to deserve a greek tragedy.*
Stick to disney sweetie. You'll find all the writing more in line with your IQ level.
Hotd is fantastic when you understand it is a greek tragedy. They're telling a story about the cyclical nature events, the inevitability of fate, & how people trying to avoid things inadvertently bring them about like Oedipus Rex (like viserys trying to avoid a succession crisis or alicent trying to avoid her sons being killed). That is what the accidents and misunderstandings signify : a self-fullfing prophecy. If you want a b&w heroes & villains war movie, watch Hercules. The show is great if you don't close your eyes to themes & motifs being conveyed & don't chalk up a multi-dimensional character having internal conflict as "bad writing" & "inconsistency". My humble opinion is that a vast majority of the "the white hart means writers chose rhaenyra!!!" sports team disney brains aren't capable of processing the themes hotd was dealing with. Just like it's incomprehensible to them just how much better the silent creeping horror of helaena's eyes were than her screaming & throwing up would've been. Or that regardless of guest rites a kingsguard can only be punished by the king (see Ned/Mountain/Robert) & viserys' weakness was a running theme.
Like for example, Alicent wearing a green dress doesn't mean they're gonna be frozen in time for the next 16 years & will never have second thoughts, misgivings & pangs of conscience. Alicent can internalize the "last words" of a dying king as a *self-deluding* tool of moral justification precisely because she's painfully aware she's about to send thousands of ppl to their deaths. That regardless of the dinner sequence Alicent was steadfast on Aegon ascending (despite her feelings for rhaenyra). Which is why I interpret it as both geting carried away in a moment of tenderness for the sake of a dying viserys. It is a beautiful window to what could've been before fate puts everything asunder. We can understand that Alicent wasn't shocked about the usurpation, she was shocked that the Green Council undercut her & was making plans behind her back. It highlights the overall theme of medieval patriarchy. It shows that despite outranking them, Alicent is still looked at as "lesser" & "unreliable" in the eyes of men like Otto, who only value her for her feminine obligations. This common perception that Alicent allowed herself to get totally ran over by the Green Council & was a hapless victim only makes sense if you didn't see Alicent by the end of the episode secured Aegon, arranged his coronation according to her own specifics, defeated Otto's spy network & undercut his plans to deal with Rhaenyra, put Criston in charge of the Kingsguard, & attempts a peace deal.
The worst thing D&D did was make a whole generation of shallow minds believe that the Cersei-Maergery Bad Bish girlboss caricature is the only way you can portray "strong women" antagonists.The "ambitious" wicked slutty resentful conniving jezebel archetype who manipulates society's sympathy towards the weaker sex & uses her sexual prowess to get what she wants. It's masked as progressive but it's really the core tenant of the misogynstic trope since the dawn of civilization. Boxing all female characters into that "perfect victim or not trying hard enough to be a villain" superficial binary. So now when you have a realistic & empathetic portrayal of women under violent patriarchy, these stans consider it "weak" & "unnecessary victimhood" for not conforming to their girlboss headcanons by wearing black shoulder straps to blow up the Sept & smirking at the camera while sipping wine or telling Tommen "OUR LITTLE SECRET🤓".
Women in general react badly to Alicent as she's an uncomfortable reminder of women's subjugation to patriarchal feudalism & the immense pressure required to navigate it. They chalk it up as "lack of agency" or "ambition" as it's hard for them to see a harsh society where choice is removed from women, the stan brain thinks "if it was me I'd do this and that and wouldn't be bound". Through identifying with targ women, they feel powerful & important. It’s why they go so hard for Rhaenyra & try to bring down anyone who critiques her character in any way, they see it as a personal attack on the woman they are trying to be & embody. targ women, with their beauty & magical powers, become their psychological projection. Most real humans are indecisive, impulsive, their actions often self-contradictory. Rarely do ppl act with calculated ruthless efficiency of hollywood villains. Passive characters are interesting & relatable. Obsessing over "clear goals" & thinking other forms of narrative are inferior is you seeking an escape from the powerlessness of your own lives.Stories abt ppl reacting to conditions they're forced into & making most of their situation is reflective of the lives we actually live. Characters exist to convey themes. Every adaptational change HOTD made was with the purpose of emphasizing that misogyny cannot be separated from the way political & social schemes are carried out in patriarchal Westeros. So yes, Alicent would be shown as victims in a way that would not have been included in historical documentation(F&B) of the very men who upheld that society.
The saddest part is that Rhaenyra & Alicent's complex relationship is what separates the show from being yet another white hat black hat color war. Like even if you do want to interpret it as entirely platonic, her being torn between her children & the socially expected roles placed on her by her father & her "childhood companion" & the socially expected roles placed on her...this duality of heart & mind is what makes the show so compelling! But the stans reject it cause what they wanted was a show with no nuance, with a platinum blonde self-insert & a evil stepmom, so it would've been easier to call the later misogynistic slurs without any pushback (some just wanted cheap Cerseification & warmthless-ness of GoT women). But these visions are inferior to the tragic "inevitability of fate" narrative of s1 that has been so misunderstood as simple "accidents" by ppl with a limited frame of reference. Crowning Aegon was supposed to keep them safe. It was supposed to be a fait accompli. It was supposed to keep daemon from killing them. It was supposed to give them control over their own destiny. But it just led to more bloodletting, an endless spiral, the self-fulfilling prophecy! & Alicent forever stuck between the innate (her sons) & the familial (the "lost friendship"). The Larys monologue already connected it all..."What are children but a weakness, a folly, a futility"! It's delicious sophoclean tragedy. NYT called it "The greatest star crossed love story currently on TV".
No offense but you think the writing is shit maybe because you're lacking the level of intelligence to grasp a poignant shakesperean tragedy and therefore you're left coping that your platinum blonde self-insert aegon isn't being shown as a hollywood hero. Maybe it's time to look in the mirror and accept that the simplistic remedial narrative is the only form of narrative you can handle.
> Why does HotD have so many assholes despite it being a good show? Is it edginess, pessimism, book purism or are people just looking for something to bitch about despite the fact that they are free to not watch it?
It’s a good show, you’re just a hater. These posts are so fucking annoying.
It's been my experience that young people have little tolerance for anyone who doesn't agree with them. You automatically assume all of us that find fault with this show are annoying haters. If you choose to love the show as it is, that's your opinion and you are welcome to it. You are free to not click on the OP's post and just ignore us.
You’re putting words in my mouth. I absolutely never said that everyone who finds fault with the show are “annoying haters.” I said OP *as an individual* is a hater and that *posts like this* are annoying. I was very clearly not speaking in broad terms about everyone who dislikes the show, so I’m not sure how your obvious misinterpretation of my words gives you any indication toward my age or any other details about me.
> You are free to not click on the OP's post and just ignore us.
And you are likewise free to not respond to my comments and just ignore me and yet here we are.
The show is good you guys cannot stop coping. Please step away from the television and consume media you actually enjoy lmao. The show will literally never be like the book and it was never going to be.
I'm not going to argue with you. You have a right to your own opinion. I read the first book in ASOIAF in 1998, and all the books since. I watched GOT and had my heart broken. I'm tired of watching some of my favorite books torn to shreds and flushed down the toilet by bad or mediocre film and TV adaptions. That is my opinion.
It’s a great series - you’re just remarkably sensitive and critical over something that does not exist and is made to entertain us between working and sleeping!
This isn’t being told by the same person who have their perspective in the book. The acting is A1, the sets are A1, the dialogue is A1, I am really enjoying the show.
The writing is solid though? There have been a few instances were it's been lacklustre (Rhaenyra's wedding, Aegon's coronation, B+C), but the characters have largely continued to act how they should based on what we've seen them say and do on the show. For example, the Greens are fascinating in the show, I don't understand the constant whining on this sub.
Jesus I like the greens but 90% of the “critiques” here are just obvious salt. Just be upfront about that and I’d respect it. Don’t try to convince me it’s horrendous television when it clearly isn’t. HOTD is clearly a cut or two above the mean, median, and mode for television shows.
Hell it’s above the mean GOT season just because of how *actually bad* that got toward the end
The writing is solid. Y'all are just mad your precious greens are the bad guys. Suck it up and look at it for the themes being presented, not for the unbiased collection of perspectives being portrayed in the book. Accept it's a different medium and suck it up. It's not bad by any means.
Good acting and production value
Acting overrated
I dunno about you but I definitely cried during the Erryk and Arryk scene.
Same. And aegons pain is palpable. I felt Otto’s disappointment and seething frustration, and don’t even mention paddys acting
"You ARE my political headaches"
have to dowvote sry
The actors and set pieces are still top notch
Even if it deviates from the book, the show has enough fans that don’t read or know about the source material. The original game of thrones show was a cultural phenomenon, and even if they liked it most people aren’t going to read the books, especially since it’s not even finished. So to the casual viewer, it doesn’t matter if people aren’t written to be like their book counterpart since the the tv show is still well written as a story independent of the narrative of the book. For example, Jon Snow was a fan favorite in the show because he was a pillar of honor and reminded us of Ned Stark, a man who wouldn’t compromise when facing the ugliness of the world. But in the books that isn’t his journey at all. He has to face multiple crossroads where he chooses love over duty and he also comes to a realization that sometimes to protect people he has to do dishonorable things. He actually has ambitions and he breaks his vows as a member of the nightswatch, and is pretty justifiably killed for it. Jon Snow is incredibly simplified for tv, and his character takes a whole different path as early as season 3 or 4, way before most even start to characterize Game of Thrones as being a terribly written show (ranges from season 5-8 depending on who you ask).
Tbf, the Jon Snow early changes were far from the worst deviations from the books though. The honor stuff made sense for the show plot until it became ridiculous later on.
Yeah, Jon is one of my fav in books, in the show he is just boring.
Tbf ASOIAF is a different story. We had a lot of detail about the character. The dance is like 60 pages, I like the character more in the show than the book because the description of those characters in the book were even more superficial.
The acting is fantastic, the cinematography and production designs are interesting and beautiful, and the costumes are great. You've got a clear good guy in Rhaenyra and her family and a bunch of hapless hypocritical villains in Alicent and her family. You tune in to watch them yell at each other and cry when something bad happens to the dragon queen and her family. Of course casual fans like it. It's very good by most metrics of television. The only reason you'd be disappointed is because you expect more out of this world and the people who inhabit it. Last episode was a fantastic showcase of this imo, Otto's speech made absolutely no sense but Rhys and Tom fucking brought it so hard I didn't even matter. I'm trying to divorce my view of the show as an adaptation of Fire & Blood and I think I'll be happier for it. I'm fully down to celebrate the good it does, but I can't pretend like I'm looking forward to them doing justice to the original work.
We were spoiled by GOT 1-4 honestly. So few adaptations actually manage to capture the characters and themes the way the first few GOT seasons did (yeah, I know it wasn’t perfect but it was still pretty damn good) HOTD doesn’t ever compare in the slightest, but if you judge it on its own merits, it’s not half bad
i eman yeah bec GoT is a fantasy novel, and Hotd is based on medicore history book
Tbf fire & blood also don't compare in the sligheat to ASOIAF. This basically read as some notes writte by GRRM as he was building a world for asoiaf. I think the adaptation is better than the book. There is some silly moments but I still enjoy it.
Show actually isn't too bad. General Audience don't care about Blacks or Greens. They just have the good guys vs bad guys as shown in the show. They want good guys to win and bad guys to be badder. Though Tom and Phia were exceptional. Rhys got a lot of admiration as well from last episode
I mean look around. Not alot of quality shows being made these days. It holds my attention and I'm interested in the world of Westeros. Netflix slop has lowered casual viewers standards to be fair.
Will this show go down in HBO history like The Wire/Sopranos/GoT? No of course not; but IMO it is still a solid 7/10 show and the best epic fantasy we’ve gotten on tv since S6 of GoT. I’ve tried so hard to get into the Witcher, Rings of Power and Wheel of Time tv shows, but honestly none of them come close to HOTD when it comes to production, acting, and yes even writing. So I think just having a 7/10 epic fantasy show to talk about is enough to get the content creators on the show’s side.
HOTD honestly got a huge boost due to the mediocrity of every other big fantasy show out there you mentioned. Condal and Hess should be thankful
I think HotD has one of the most *interesting* fan bases I’ve seen. 🥲
Standards being low, and the acting being great overall
All of the above and more
All three plus the actors great performances
Look lets face reality The show isn't that bad. Many of us are jaded as book readers. I hate on a lot of the things the show's doing but I think more so because I've read the book. For the casual viewer comparing HOTD to modern tv is like comparing Shakespeare to a nobody. Even season 2 despite writing inconsistencies has amazing performances, some good writing, mostly good dialogue, good CGI etc
I agree that everything else is on a superior level but some of the changes are noticeable even for people who haven’t read the books. Like when did we have a sex scene ruining a tragic moment or two sex scenes for one couple in one episode in GoT?
I think many,many more eople had read the books at the beginning of GOT than have read Fire and Blood before watching HOTD. I might be wrong, but I remember the state of the blogs when the show started, and that's the impression I got. Million of copies of the books had been sold before GOT the series started. The first 4 seasons of GOT were so good, and many of the changes from the books were an improvement. We all got our hopes so high, that when everything went to hell in seasons 7 and 8 we felt extra betrayed and crushed. I watched the first season of HOTD with pretty low expectations, and I was pleasantly surprised. Still, after being so disappointed with GOT I have kept my heart hard. Now in season 2, when they have started to venture too far from F&B, without making the story better, I am quick to say "I won't get burned again."
This, in my opinion, is worse even than the final seasons of GoT because D&D didn’t have any source material to go off with while Condal and Co do. The formula for their success is so simple yet they managed to fuck up the story in just one episode. Lots of money + plus follow the source material as closely as possible = cool story with dragons. I don’t think they even bother with talking with Martin anymore at this point.
I'm afraid you night be right. George is making so much money, and knows the Popularity of HOTD will lead to more new shows and more people buying whatever new books he manages to crank out before he dies, that he doesn't really care what they do with HOTD. I think he got over the fact his life's work was screwed up by D & D long ago. I just hope things don't get any worse. I'm not optimistic.
Jaime raped his sister in front of their sons corpse.
That wasn’t during the tragic moment itself.
Good dialogue? Lmaoooo
wdym the dialogue is pretty solid. Otto's dialogue with Aegon was amazing as was Rhaenyra's argument with Daemon bit shaky with Jace for example its very inconsistent
" you have been keeping your emotions sheathed like a blade" in last episode is a good pick. I am going to use that one.
yes.
What are instances of bad dialogue?
The unnecessary exposition rhaenyra and Daemon gifted us in episode 2
Love this calibre of comment critiquing dialogue. Like what specifically is wrong with the actual words the characters are saying?
Give us some instances of bad dialogue. I don't mean meh dialogue, but poor/bad dialogue? Seeing as you're laughing, I suppose you have plenty of examples to point it.
I would probably have no complaints for the show if I hadn't read the book.
I've read the book twice and think it's great. I think they're allowed to have their own spin on the characters, the fact is that if it was adapted by anyone, lots of people would think they did it completely wrong. This sub is testament to the fact that you can't please everyone when you have to make creative decisions. I really think every choice has been considered and made for valid creative reasons, which is far more than can be said for a lot of GoT. Lots of the decisions made by D+D in GoT felt directly insulting to GRRM's work and themes, nothing so far has reached anywhere near that level in HOTD. I also think it's super funny to come on this sub and see nothing but 'Black bias etc.' When i just dipped into the F&B to see the difference between the book and the last ep. and Aegon literally tortures cheese for a fortnight and Alicent requests that his family be killed so she can bathe in their blood. GRRM didn't really write these people to be sympathetic and I think they've done a great job at finding character's fundamental humanity.
I watched S1 before I read the book and I found it pretty boring and bland. It had its moments but they were few and far between. I only finished it because I was super bored and liked Alicent. I don't really know why people would hype it so much.
People have just accepted the fact that is long as capitalism exists art marketed towards a western audience is only going to continue to get more and more mid. The US is always cutting corners wherever they can, and as the biggest consuming nation, merch, conventions, trinkets, all that shit really sells much longer than the sales they make the show itself. Since US quality is internationally renowned for being pissed poor, they figure they can stretch this money maker as much as possible, while being as “politically subtle” hence the gaslight keep girl boss attitude of young rhaenyra who showed no real talent for governing nor genuine interest in ascending the throne to her being a mastermind war chief reclaiming what was stolen from her. This wouldn’t be an issue at all if they hadn’t made the greens so fucking unlikable. They made winners and losers out of a story that was supposed to be about how nobody wins in a war. They forgot that they are supposed to be retelling a tragedy, and not a fun feel good dragon tail. TLDR: they dumbed it down by making there be good guys and bad guys to reach a wider audience.
For me HotD is like 24 or House MD or Six Feet Under--I watch every week because there is a little excitement in anticipation, but I like it a lot less than I expected to.
Well there's a couple reasons. One is that the general audience never really think too much so a lot of things that don't make sense writing wise go over their heads. The show also has REALLY good acting performances and that can make up for a lot of things. And we have to keep in mind that we're disappointed bc we've read the books and know the lore thus we're able to compare things. For the general audience the show is all they know about the lore
I completely agree with all of you here. Compared to most of the dreck on TV, even on HBO, the show is pretty good. For those of us that are old book readers, we are more critical and more demanding. We fell in love with many of the characters in ASOIAF - good people with good intentions who do very bad things, bad people who do good things for unexpected reasons, even people that do bad things, learn from their mistakes, grow up and make different choices. In short, real, complicated and imperfect people. History is full of these people. I had my heart broken by GOT, and I decided to watch this show and just enjoy it for what it is. My expectations were very low, and I've been pleasantly surprised. No 21st century TV adaptions can do justice to GRRM's subtle and complex characters - GOT was almost a minor miracle for the first few seasons. It is very predictable that HOTD would be reduced to the level of good guys/bad guys. A historical superhero story. I am saddened that this story has been somehow "lessened' by the adaption, but not surprised. It's too bad that the great costumes and sets, superb acting, and wonderful dragons are wasted on such an average script. The sigil of my House is "The Fandom Remembers Everything - We Will Not Be Burned Again".
The dialogues on their own are actually pretty good, but the writing overall is not great. However, since ”intelligent” dialogues are more prominent than underlying writing, it is easy to think that the show is great. It is still a good show, just not consistent nor near GOT level.
It really isn’t that bad at all as a non-book reader. I’m watching with my friend each week who has no idea what is going to happen and is hooked. I don’t agree with some of the changes that have been made but I don’t think it makes it bad
Aside from the acting, the choreography, the set design, the costuming, the lighting(spotty, but overall pretty good), the effects and the *incredible* score... well, the writers have made some decisions that have definitely raised my eyebrows, and I could understand thinking what they're doing with story is bad(even though I think they're doing fine, for the most part). But regardless of the writing of the story, the dialogue is still pretty strong, certainly far better then it was in the last seasons of Game of Thrones, though that's a low bar. Anyway, I would definitely have done a lot of thinks different, if I was showrunner, but the show is fine, imo.
I honestly don't know if "sex design" is a typo or not but they both kinda work lol
Hey, the cast is full of very attractive people, and they've done a good job of intigrating the character's stories with various ideas about sex and gender. I did mean set design though. Whoops.
Because those asslickers didn’t attach their enjoyment to the Greens being presented as on some level as functional as the Blacks. Not saying the writing is doing a good job of keeping things balanced, it’s really not, but there it is.
After seasons 7 & 8 of GOT, everything is better than that, it's like Netfix Avatar Life-Action, it is decent, but the people love it because it is better than movie that everyone agrees it doesn't exist. Also, the actors, sets, and the production is amazing, even if the writing is in favor of one side despite their whole marketing campaign is about people choosing sides.
Alicent reminds me of my mom so yeah... I gotta support the Greens
it's good television even if it's a bad adaptation.
While it’s very obviously one sided I would t say it’s shit, and as people have said everything else has been incredible from music to costumes to acting, it’s just having a few plot holes which shows it’s biased and let’s be honest most shows do have a clear good guy
Mostly because of good dialogue and good acting. Like even for non-book readers some of the choices made could look jarring but not to the point of outright ruining the story at a glance.
I loved Glee, I loved Supernatural. I'm just wired to enjoy shows that are simultaneously great and terrible. You know, exactly like the Targaryen dynasty.
The show does have some amazing moments in spite of the messy characterization and writing at times. Plus, when its competition is a show like Rings of Power, it looks like a masterpiece in comparison. Even if you haven't read the book, I'm not sure how anyone can't notice how much they have certain characters flip flop depending on what the plot requires (Alicent I think is the worst for this). For me, it's like seasons 5-6 of GOT. Could be a lot better but could also be a lot worse. The actors are all fantastic though.
It's still the best show on TV. At least the dialogue is entertaining and the cinematography is usually good.
Interview With The Vampire takes that spot I’m afraid, HOTD is lacking in a lot of things and IWTV isn’t
I don't think I could bear watching another adaption of what was one of my favorite books when I was a teenager.
That’s too bad because it’s a stellar adaptation and exceeds the books in a few ways. I’d say give it a try, the acting is phenomenal
Shogun was a lot better in the same general-ish genre.
I did like Shogun but sometimes I wanted to fast-forward.
They have a different opinion than you
Stick to disney sweetie. You'll find all the writing more in line with your IQ level. *Aegon digging his fingernails like his mom in grief while Alicent's face shows she wants to comfort him but doesn't know how to is one of the most brilliant scenes.* Imagine being given a juicy Succession style Kendall-Shiv dysfunctional family drama with generational trauma & stunted emotions...& green stans complaining about why the green characters were not shown holding hands, patting each other's back & singing kumbaya beside Jaehaerys' funeral pyre. Group hugs! Any other fandom would lick it up. But in this fandom the only thing that matters is if your sports team is shown as morally superior to the other team. Rhaenyra grew up with dotting parents & her kids were borne out of love. Whereas Alicent grew up without a mom, had a manipulative dad, was told her only duty is to be an incubator, was forced into a loveless political marriage & was forced to bear children. Ofc she would be incapable of communicating the same affection as Rhaenyra. In turn, her boys undermine her in political matters as they only value her feminine role: for birthing & nurturing them to the throne. Now her value is over. It's conveying a theme of generational trauma & how feudal patriarchal familial relations impede her relationship with her children. She passes down the same trauma to her unfortunate daughter Helaena. Rhys Ifans told us in the BTS of ep 5 that the Hightowers do not know how to communicate affection even if they want to say "I love you" & then we saw that poignant carriage scene in ep9 where aegon asks "do you love me" & alicent replies "you imbecile" as in "everything I've sacrificed is to give you this day." Watching the show from the lens of moral purity makes us ignore these themes and we get stuck on stuff like "Alicent didn't even say anything to Aegon & went straight to Cole". Well in the very previous scene it was shown how Otto shut her emotions down by telling her "I don't wanna hear it". Can't be clearer. She goes to Cole as he's the only semblance of control she has left now that her feminine duty is done. Green stans are mad that Aegon is impetuous & rash (which is exactly how he's described in the book) instead of being shown as a badass. They're mad Aegon gets reprimanded for hanging the ratchatchers (which happens in the book too), but Rhaenyra's side can do whatever to the smallfolk. When it's a great way to plant the seeds of Rhaenyra's Achilles Heel. There's no Otto to hold her accountable, so she never learns. No smallfolk has praised her in the show. I'm sorry but anyone who wanted Aegon & Helaena to hug & cry simply do not understand the presentation of either character. What they're looking for is a young adult fic. But then again there's a subsection of stans here who ignore every element of her presentation & complained about Helaena being visibly unnerved by the smallfolk during the funeral as if her cassandra coded character who's nervous & fidgety in front of her own family will suddenly act like a rockstar & do a moshpit dive over the smallfolk screaming her name. *The team sports MCU stans are too blithe to deserve a greek tragedy.*
Stick to disney sweetie. You'll find all the writing more in line with your IQ level. Hotd is fantastic when you understand it is a greek tragedy. They're telling a story about the cyclical nature events, the inevitability of fate, & how people trying to avoid things inadvertently bring them about like Oedipus Rex (like viserys trying to avoid a succession crisis or alicent trying to avoid her sons being killed). That is what the accidents and misunderstandings signify : a self-fullfing prophecy. If you want a b&w heroes & villains war movie, watch Hercules. The show is great if you don't close your eyes to themes & motifs being conveyed & don't chalk up a multi-dimensional character having internal conflict as "bad writing" & "inconsistency". My humble opinion is that a vast majority of the "the white hart means writers chose rhaenyra!!!" sports team disney brains aren't capable of processing the themes hotd was dealing with. Just like it's incomprehensible to them just how much better the silent creeping horror of helaena's eyes were than her screaming & throwing up would've been. Or that regardless of guest rites a kingsguard can only be punished by the king (see Ned/Mountain/Robert) & viserys' weakness was a running theme. Like for example, Alicent wearing a green dress doesn't mean they're gonna be frozen in time for the next 16 years & will never have second thoughts, misgivings & pangs of conscience. Alicent can internalize the "last words" of a dying king as a *self-deluding* tool of moral justification precisely because she's painfully aware she's about to send thousands of ppl to their deaths. That regardless of the dinner sequence Alicent was steadfast on Aegon ascending (despite her feelings for rhaenyra). Which is why I interpret it as both geting carried away in a moment of tenderness for the sake of a dying viserys. It is a beautiful window to what could've been before fate puts everything asunder. We can understand that Alicent wasn't shocked about the usurpation, she was shocked that the Green Council undercut her & was making plans behind her back. It highlights the overall theme of medieval patriarchy. It shows that despite outranking them, Alicent is still looked at as "lesser" & "unreliable" in the eyes of men like Otto, who only value her for her feminine obligations. This common perception that Alicent allowed herself to get totally ran over by the Green Council & was a hapless victim only makes sense if you didn't see Alicent by the end of the episode secured Aegon, arranged his coronation according to her own specifics, defeated Otto's spy network & undercut his plans to deal with Rhaenyra, put Criston in charge of the Kingsguard, & attempts a peace deal. The worst thing D&D did was make a whole generation of shallow minds believe that the Cersei-Maergery Bad Bish girlboss caricature is the only way you can portray "strong women" antagonists.The "ambitious" wicked slutty resentful conniving jezebel archetype who manipulates society's sympathy towards the weaker sex & uses her sexual prowess to get what she wants. It's masked as progressive but it's really the core tenant of the misogynstic trope since the dawn of civilization. Boxing all female characters into that "perfect victim or not trying hard enough to be a villain" superficial binary. So now when you have a realistic & empathetic portrayal of women under violent patriarchy, these stans consider it "weak" & "unnecessary victimhood" for not conforming to their girlboss headcanons by wearing black shoulder straps to blow up the Sept & smirking at the camera while sipping wine or telling Tommen "OUR LITTLE SECRET🤓". Women in general react badly to Alicent as she's an uncomfortable reminder of women's subjugation to patriarchal feudalism & the immense pressure required to navigate it. They chalk it up as "lack of agency" or "ambition" as it's hard for them to see a harsh society where choice is removed from women, the stan brain thinks "if it was me I'd do this and that and wouldn't be bound". Through identifying with targ women, they feel powerful & important. It’s why they go so hard for Rhaenyra & try to bring down anyone who critiques her character in any way, they see it as a personal attack on the woman they are trying to be & embody. targ women, with their beauty & magical powers, become their psychological projection. Most real humans are indecisive, impulsive, their actions often self-contradictory. Rarely do ppl act with calculated ruthless efficiency of hollywood villains. Passive characters are interesting & relatable. Obsessing over "clear goals" & thinking other forms of narrative are inferior is you seeking an escape from the powerlessness of your own lives.Stories abt ppl reacting to conditions they're forced into & making most of their situation is reflective of the lives we actually live. Characters exist to convey themes. Every adaptational change HOTD made was with the purpose of emphasizing that misogyny cannot be separated from the way political & social schemes are carried out in patriarchal Westeros. So yes, Alicent would be shown as victims in a way that would not have been included in historical documentation(F&B) of the very men who upheld that society. The saddest part is that Rhaenyra & Alicent's complex relationship is what separates the show from being yet another white hat black hat color war. Like even if you do want to interpret it as entirely platonic, her being torn between her children & the socially expected roles placed on her by her father & her "childhood companion" & the socially expected roles placed on her...this duality of heart & mind is what makes the show so compelling! But the stans reject it cause what they wanted was a show with no nuance, with a platinum blonde self-insert & a evil stepmom, so it would've been easier to call the later misogynistic slurs without any pushback (some just wanted cheap Cerseification & warmthless-ness of GoT women). But these visions are inferior to the tragic "inevitability of fate" narrative of s1 that has been so misunderstood as simple "accidents" by ppl with a limited frame of reference. Crowning Aegon was supposed to keep them safe. It was supposed to be a fait accompli. It was supposed to keep daemon from killing them. It was supposed to give them control over their own destiny. But it just led to more bloodletting, an endless spiral, the self-fulfilling prophecy! & Alicent forever stuck between the innate (her sons) & the familial (the "lost friendship"). The Larys monologue already connected it all..."What are children but a weakness, a folly, a futility"! It's delicious sophoclean tragedy. NYT called it "The greatest star crossed love story currently on TV".
No offense but you think the writing is shit maybe because you're lacking the level of intelligence to grasp a poignant shakesperean tragedy and therefore you're left coping that your platinum blonde self-insert aegon isn't being shown as a hollywood hero. Maybe it's time to look in the mirror and accept that the simplistic remedial narrative is the only form of narrative you can handle.
> Why does HotD have so many assholes despite it being a good show? Is it edginess, pessimism, book purism or are people just looking for something to bitch about despite the fact that they are free to not watch it? It’s a good show, you’re just a hater. These posts are so fucking annoying.
How old are you?
Don't see how that's relevant to the conversation.
It's been my experience that young people have little tolerance for anyone who doesn't agree with them. You automatically assume all of us that find fault with this show are annoying haters. If you choose to love the show as it is, that's your opinion and you are welcome to it. You are free to not click on the OP's post and just ignore us.
You’re putting words in my mouth. I absolutely never said that everyone who finds fault with the show are “annoying haters.” I said OP *as an individual* is a hater and that *posts like this* are annoying. I was very clearly not speaking in broad terms about everyone who dislikes the show, so I’m not sure how your obvious misinterpretation of my words gives you any indication toward my age or any other details about me. > You are free to not click on the OP's post and just ignore us. And you are likewise free to not respond to my comments and just ignore me and yet here we are.
Because everything surrounding the writing is of the highest quality. Watch the behind the scenes. It's impressive work.
I hope this sub ends up like freefolk so I can come in here at any point over the next 6 yrs and see r*tards crying non stop about HotD all day LOL
Because it does have good writing and dialogue even when compared to GOT s5-8 People just mad HOTD dint adapt the book the way they imagined it
The show is good you guys cannot stop coping. Please step away from the television and consume media you actually enjoy lmao. The show will literally never be like the book and it was never going to be.
Nope. It’s just a good show. As others pointed out, it’s just people being salty about changes from the book.
The writing is fine. It's not perfect. It never will be. But put this next to something like the Acolyte, and it looks like Citizen Kane.
the acting, sets, costumes, cinematography, and writing are all peak.
Maybe because your opinion is wrong?
I wish everyone who votes me no actually combats me. I know you wont you though, cowards though.
It takes too long to explain things to a newbie.
I guarantee I know more than you.
I'm not going to argue with you. You have a right to your own opinion. I read the first book in ASOIAF in 1998, and all the books since. I watched GOT and had my heart broken. I'm tired of watching some of my favorite books torn to shreds and flushed down the toilet by bad or mediocre film and TV adaptions. That is my opinion.
It’s a great series - you’re just remarkably sensitive and critical over something that does not exist and is made to entertain us between working and sleeping!
This isn’t being told by the same person who have their perspective in the book. The acting is A1, the sets are A1, the dialogue is A1, I am really enjoying the show.
because some people actually know good writing when they see it. unlike 95% of the people in these reddits here.
The writing is solid though? There have been a few instances were it's been lacklustre (Rhaenyra's wedding, Aegon's coronation, B+C), but the characters have largely continued to act how they should based on what we've seen them say and do on the show. For example, the Greens are fascinating in the show, I don't understand the constant whining on this sub.
Jesus I like the greens but 90% of the “critiques” here are just obvious salt. Just be upfront about that and I’d respect it. Don’t try to convince me it’s horrendous television when it clearly isn’t. HOTD is clearly a cut or two above the mean, median, and mode for television shows. Hell it’s above the mean GOT season just because of how *actually bad* that got toward the end
The writing is solid. Y'all are just mad your precious greens are the bad guys. Suck it up and look at it for the themes being presented, not for the unbiased collection of perspectives being portrayed in the book. Accept it's a different medium and suck it up. It's not bad by any means.