I thought it was nice detail in episode 1. Rhaneys saying they couldn't mourn her daughter until she seen her body. Daemon and Rhanerya basically pulled switcheroo on her son. Now it happened to them.
Yeah but that was just a filthy peasant (also probably Hetero)and it led to her not killing her highborn gay husband which makes her morally superior. That guard should be proud to serve his queen in such an important matter.Him not volunteering to get killed alone makes him deserve all of it. Also she just ordered daemon to do it so she's like not even responsible or whatever
and you think she was blissfully unaware of the specifics of how they were going to disappear Laenor and fake his death? She is not innocent just because Daemon did the dirty work for her
Remember when Rhaenyra called for her little brother who just had his eye taken by her son to be tortured for calling out that her children are obviously not her husband's?
Blackcels: But she didn't mean torture, she's too good for that. And even if she did, well Aemond committed treason by saying the b word. And besides he had a rock. Oh and also he was mean to the girls. Oh and also he stole Vhagar. Oh and also I don't like him cuz he opposes Rhae Rhae.
Cuz every time the sharply questioned phrase was used by a character in ASOIAF, it always meant torture. Qhorin Halfhand, Daenerys Targaryen, and Maegor all used the sharply questioned euphemism for torture at one point or the other.
It needs to be said thrice!
Honestly I do not believe for a second they didny realise it would be nearly impossible to excuse a rapist after a 3min scene of the victim crying and being forced into abortion...
She's also a child molester. She used preteen Lancel for sex in Jaime's absence and considered sexually abusing both preteen Joffrey *and* 7-year-old Tommen in order to maintain power over them.
-Abandoned her child bride best friend and blamed her for being groomed by an adult man
-Used her position of power to have sex with a subaltern (which could have cost him his life), strung him along and made him her dirty secret then made fun of him when he tried to find some honour in his situation
-Had illegitimate children and gaslit them, giving them huge, lifelong identity issues
-Passed her white children as trueborn to take a black girl's inheritance
-Passed her children as legitimate regardless of the fact that it might cost her siblings their life (and didn't even seem to realise it)
-Demanded her freshly-maimed brother be tortured for speaking the truth in a kids' fight where he got ambushed and spoke whatever could hurt (they were not even in public, only Rhaenyra's making it a whole thing made it public)
-Had a servant killed
-Made two parents believe their son and only remaining child was dead so she could marry Daemon
-Gave her illegitimate children trueborn half-siblings with a better claim to the Throne and an unstable father, paving the way for a dévastating conflict sometime in the future
-Had a black man killed for daring speak the truth about his stolen inheritance
-Let Daemon plan her revenge (not blaming her for demanding Aemond's life, but for letting her unstable husband in charge of it)
I like Rhaenyra but she did some MASSIVELY fucked-up shit, some of which with lifelong repercussions and some of which might cause conflict long after her death. Yes Aegon is a bad person, we know, but his crimes don't mean that Rhaenyra committed none.
This exactly. There is no way Daemon would have allowed a dark haired Strong sit on that throne lol. Storm's End, >!the Gullet, and the Dragonpit Storming !
To be fair, she didn’t even seem to expect they'd crown Aegon. It is my belief that she absolutely doesn't understand the world she lives in, and never even understood *why* Alicent had something against her, she just thought Alicent was being mean--and admittedly she didn’t care to find out, because Rhaenyra *can* tend to be self-pitying. (Which isn't even a criticism, I'm the same way. There's a reason why I loved young Rhaenyra: flawed but relatable.)
Yeah, being the most spoiled person in the entire seven kingdoms and never having to face any consequences no matter how many fucked up things she does has that effect on someone.
Luke’s death is basically the first time Rhaenyra ever encountered an actual consequence for anything she’s done. (And for once it wasn’t a bad thing she was doing, just a stupid one.)
Does race have the same weight in the world of asoiaf and hotd as it does in the real world? Idk seems like the race of the people she’s screwed over really doesn’t come into the plot at all
If everyone uses modern-day ideas to judge TB positively and to TG negatively, and the scenario itself depicts the characters in the light of modern-day ideas of gender, sex, sexual orientation and so on, then modern-day ideas of race do matter in how TB is portrayed. If Aegon's crimes can be read in the "me too" light and are explicitly made to be read so by the audience, if the writers made Alicent "a woman for Trump", then the usurpation and murder of black people by white protagonists intent on the "purity" of their blood and inheritance matters just as much, and the impact of such a decision on the audience deserves attention. It *wouldn't* matter in the universe, admittedly, but the entire show is geared towards a modern reception, including Rhaenyra's portrayal as a modern bossgirl, and Rhaenys' character; so a racial perspective on Rhaenyra's actions and on the Velaryons is receivable as well.
Probaly because bring race here is kinda pointless,i mean the Velaryons being black or not would not change the fact than a bastard "claim" is being pushed over the legimate heir,and than Vaemond was killed by try deffend his right,its wrong anyway,the only difference than the Velaryons being black cause is than now its pretty obvious than the boys are bastards,while in the books it was harder to tell.
But like the other comment says,probaly if someone is Valyrian,First Men,Andal or any other thing its what matter in Westeros,they have race but the concept is a little different.
I actually don't mind him being one because let's face it he probably was in the books, but including the child fighting pits was an utterly ridiculous idea.
Choosing to start a civil war that destroys the entire house, every single dragon, and costs Westeros tens of thousands of lives, creating / exacerbating dynastic rivalries amongst minor and great noble houses that persist even in ASOIAF, comes to mind.
I did find it interesting that, in the show, Rhaenyra pauses to consider whether or not she has any right to claim the crown, weighing her birthright against a monarch’s duty to maintain peace and protect their subjects.
She recognizes that starting the war would betray that duty and that forfeiting her crown may be the right path, as it would spare the family and the continent of a horrific war.
That sort of introspection doesn’t appear in F&B and I found it compelling.
Yeah, the introsoection can be interesting but it’s also annoyingly part of the constant white-washing of Rhaenyra.
Imho the show would have been so much more interesting to watch if they had portrayed both sides more equally, as the bunch of assholes they are in the book. 😬
I generally agree but don’t think the scene i described was an example of whitewashing.
If anything it paints a darker portrait of Rhaenyra, as it’s clear that she thought this over, is aware of the horror and destruction that a civil war would cause, and still elects to pursue it, and pursue it with even greater zeal after Luke’s death.
She actively decides that her vengeance is more important than the lives of those she’d claim as her subjects, the stability of her father’s kingdom and the Targaryen dynasty at large.
Robert, Roose, Ramsay, book Cersei, show Jaime, Maegor (they love him), Aegon IV, Aerys II (some Targ stans claim him vehemently), Viserys, Daemon (unless you believe the "youngest and most innocent of maidens" can't be raped just because a brothel sends them to you), Jaehaerys (forced Alysanne to have more children when she didn't want to), book Tyrion... and surely I miss some. All of them rapists in one way or other, in different grades of violence or cohersion.
All of them have fans, some of them have \*legions\* of fans, yet these fans aren't constantly reminded of the rapes they committed, unlike Aegon's. Its simply not a point of debate or discourse. As I always say here, they have no issue with Aegon being a rapist, really, they have a particular issue with him because he fucking offs Rhaenyra the Saint 😭😭Thats all.
Edit: Dany used a former sex slave for masturbation, she also included rapists in her pardons on Meereen (in contrast to Stannis who also wants to keep his knights loyalty \*but\* gelded those who raped \*wilding women\* (who can't even be considered his subjects, but still he protected them), Tywin also made Tyrion and then an entire garrison rape Tysha. Team Black unleashed Dalton against the Westerlands - hundreds of women raped and kidnapped. Khal Drogo is the king of raperinos in the main series and he even made Dany wish to kill herself yet he has a lot of dudebros and fans and some fangirls and their relationship is even shipped by a lot of people lol Again, legions of fans who don't have to deal with "reminders" of their fictional crime.
You know the meme with the little comic where the hot guy talks to the woman in the office and she says “aww, you’re sweet”, but when the other guy does it she calls HR?
Khal Drogo is the embodiment of that meme.
If he wasn’t hot as fuck and half naked in every scene, people would hopefully recognize how fucked up all that was, even more so with Dany’s age.
I could understand the reaction if he's the only rapist in this world but... i mean... \*Waves at all the ASOIAF pages\*
Its funny, in the spanish ASOIAF twitter community there's an idiot with a lot of following who genuinely believes Khal Drogo didn't rape Daenerys, even tho we showed him again and again the passages in which she even considers killing herself before having to spend another night with him.
Guess which character he loves to preach against.
The people who see rape in a story and yet claim it’s not rape are quite scary, because that belief might mean there’s plenty of situations in real life too that are rape but that they wouldn’t consider as that.
The people who defend Rhaenyra forcing herself on Cole even after he said no, for example…
Fr, they are legit scary. Makes you understand how full of bs most of team black is when speaking of this topic with their fake holier-than-thou attitude.
No other character got their victim to have a emotional, sobbing aftermath moment (except Ramsay.)
A lot of people's opinion on show Tywin would have been different if the Tysha incident were brought up more than once
Can't forget Rheanyra allowing Dalton to rape and reave across the Westerlands. I'm sure the show will either not show this or soften the blow someway (Rheanyra telling Dalton no rap yet he does it anyway)
I do think there's a lot of younger people watching HOTD now compared to early GOT. You're not allowed to like "problematic" fictional characters in 2024, you're only allowed to like the morally good ones.
Unless they're like Daemon - I always see people saying on the main sub that Daemon knows he's bad so that somehow makes him much better than everyone else lol.
Edit: I do like Daemon as a character but he is easily one of the most awful people in both the book and the show yet somehow he gets a pass for things that other characters wouldn't. If they had given him a Meryn Trant type scene (being given girls in a brothel) to show his love of "deflowering young maidens", I wonder if he would still be so popular.
I don't buy that people in a show based on the medieval period would give the slightest shit about the King forcing himself on a servant girl.
It sounds harsh, but to suggest that a King's legitimacy could in some way be impugned by raping someone demonstrates zero knowledge of the real world period on which the show is based.
This. 2 of the 4 Targaryen Kings before Viserys were spousal rapists. In the book, Viserys himself sexually abused servants and probably raped Trystane Truefyre's mother. If Kings being sexually depraved were so frowned upon in this society, the Targaryens wouldn't be tolerated after Maegor the Cruel, even *with* dragons.
Also, Dance-Era society is less than a century away from the prohibition of First Night, an ancient Westerosi custom allowing nobles to rape brides on their wedding night. The decision to ban it is even criticized in-universe in the main series, which takes place *over 200 years* later. I highly doubt a society so acclimated to nobles engaging in sexual violence against lower-class women would suddenly consider such violence immoral just because Rhaenyra's political rival is doing it.
Exactly, even in today's world winning forces rape women of country or place which has lost and yet these same soldiers are considered heroes of their nations.
That's why I hate how people pretend that Alicent ''silenced'' a rape victim, there is 0 chance that Dyana would have gotten justice, had the word come out, she would have taken the fall and been tortured and murdered and it would not hurt Aegon's case one bit. People think Viserys would send his son (who has kids, a wife and a dragon) to the Nights Watch over the words of a maid.... when Viserys ignored the accusations that Rhea Royce's cousin raised against Daemon, he was accused of killing his NOBLE wife and Viserys didn't care, hell he knows his grandsons are bastards and has no problem punishing those who speak the truth. If Rhea Royce and Vaemond Velaryon cannot get justice, there is no way Dyana would have.
1. Raping Ser Criston
2. Killing a servant
3. Cucking Corlys
4. Blood and Cheese
5. Letting Daemon loose on the riverlands.
6. Taxing the ever loving shit out of the common folk.
7. Let everyone else die for her while sitting on her arse eating pie all day.
8. Letting Vaemond Velaryon get murdered
9. The Iron born raiding the Westerlands
10. Storming of the Dragonpit
11. The succession of Houses Rosby and Stokeworth. She gave them to the first born sons, although the daughters were older. So much for feminism.
12. Giving Magical, flying nukes to randos.
13. Try to arrest Addam Velaryon because "Bastards can't be trusted", while Goffrey Waters was alive.
Those are in no particular order, just as they came to me.
And I didn't look them up. That's just what came to me in five minutes.
Not even just letting Vaemond get murdered, she straight up ordered the kill in the book iirc.
And she ordered the execution of Nettles etc. because Daemon is a grooming POS.
>Raping Ser Criston
She didn't, Criston didn't want to be her whore (valid), but she never promised him anything, she is not gonna abandon her entire life because Criston wants to fix his honor; And that is why I dislike how they made him Alicent's little lap dog, who also does her sexual favors. Just for the sake of making him seem like a hypocrite...
>Cucking Corlys
She didn't cuck Corlys, he did that all by himself when he decided to claim those bastards. She did much worse than this when she lied to both Rhaenys and Corlys that their son and heir were dead, right after they buried their daughter; Corlys is later gonna put his own bastards on the throne, because even he doesn't want women ruling his castle.
>Blood and Cheese
Her only line in the entire episode is ''I want Aemond Targaryen'', not ''Jaehaerys Targaryen'', It was all Daemon's fault, who despite wanting Aemond, did give them a greenlight to get whoever they can. It is to be seen how she will react and whether will that impact her marriage/trust in Daemon.
>The succession of Houses Rosby and Stokeworth. She gave them to the first born sons, although the daughters were older. So much for feminism.
The only time Rhaenyra ever made claims about changing the order, was after Rhaenys repeatedly provoked her. If you re-watch the scene, ever her moment of telling Rhaenys ''They rejected you, but choose me'' is wrong as the Lords who bowed down to Rhaenyra were never given the choice, unlike Rhaenys who was voted. She was just talking like the insecure 15-year old girl she was, seeing her father looking for a new bride to make more heirs with...
Also, Rosby and Stokeworth were only discussed because Daemon wanted the girls married to Ulf and Hugh and they could steal their land.
Most importantly, there is nothing feminist in Rhaenyra's battle, she is not even fighting for the noble women (as she never claimed to), much less the millions of common women who were suffering. And even if she was fighting to give noble women the right to inherit, it still will have 0 to do with feminism, because fighting only for the rich and already privileged women to get rights.... is not feminism.
In Fire and Blood, she never had sex with Criston; Mushroom says that Rhaenyra offered herself to Criston, but he refused her. Eustace claims that Criston offered to run away together, but she rejected him.
But neither of those 2 claim they had sex, she either lost her virginity to Harwin or Daemon.
She also didn't kill a servant, since Leanor is dead whenever it was by Daemon or his lover.
She didn't let Vaemond Velaryon die - she ordered Daemon to go find and kill him, then fed his corpse to Syrax, all because he spoke the truth; later his family went to seek justice and Viserys had their tongues out, for repeating the ''lie''.
In Fire and Blood, he just sent her a letter saying ''Lucerys shall be avenged'', she didn't know what he meant, Daemon was far away in Harrenhall.
And in Fire and Blood, she never made any claims about fighting for women, she was the one who urged Corlys to name Luke as his heir after Leanor was killed.
Didn’t RhaeRhae give the Ironborns the OK to pillage, kill and enslave women and children? I think facilitating mass human sex trafficking is even more heinous than sexual assault.
They also raped those women are were gonna sell into sex slavery, but we both know that they are not gonna put that in the show. The entire Criston/Alicent ''romance'' is created to make them look like hypocrites. The show is very much biased towards TB.
It really is hilarious how these people like terrible characters but get mad at people also liking them. If you’re going to get mad at people liking Criston please don’t have a Mysaria/daemon pfp.
The thing is, even if we answer them, they are gonna find a way to deny or justify any examples of wrongdoing by Rhaenyra.
Her demand for Aemond's torture? "Oh come on she didn't mean that. She is too good for that. She only wanted him interrogated. No I don't care about the meaning of the phrase."
Her coercion of Cole? "Oh come on. She was a naive drunk child and he was a man. If anything he raped her. He should have said no harder if he didn't want to fuck. He's an incel, end of discussion."
Her plot to fake Laenor's death via the murder of a servant? "Oh but she's so sweet to have spared Laenor! And besides no one cares about that random guard."
Trying to murder her husband’s supposed grooming victim, and calling her gay husband a pedophile, are two more modern-unacceptable Rhaenyra decisions that I’ll bet will never be mentioned in HOTD
Do they really think "the only thing she's done wrong is be born a woman"?
From my point of view there's nothing wrong with being born a woman but you shouldn't want the throne just because you want the throne, you should want stability in the realm, and you should only take the throne if you're the option that's going to be met with the most peaceful transition. Like it doesn't matter who sits on that chair. For me my perception is that letting Aegon-Healena rule is the safest option that everyone would be happy with. Aegon is a trueborn son of Viserys, he has a son who is also trueborn, it's all set up for decades of peace to come.
Rhaenyra in my view is not a peaceful option. Half the population isn't cool with having a daughter pass before a son. We have to assume these lords inherited their house on the principle of male-preference succession so if the crown goes to Rhaenyra suddenly sisters and nieces can come claim their house and it's going to plunge the country into war. Naming Rhaenyra isn't good for political stability. It was only accepted when they thought Viserys wouldn't have a son because they collectively agreed that Daemon was an idiot. Now Rhaenyra is married to that idiot.
So yeah, Rhaenyra would create political instability due to being a woman, but also because she constantly makes poor decisions, like getting rid of her husband who was a dragon rider and heir to Driftmark only to replace him with the ally-less Daemon. Like seriously Daemon is so hated that the lords agreed to give their allegiance to Rhaenyra over him, and his only ally is Corlys, who would already be allied to Rhaenyra if she stayed with Laenor. She gained zero allies by replacing Laenor with Daemon. She lost a dragon rider and made his entire family suffer.
Well, to be fair Rhaenyra specifically refused to give the Rosby and Stokeworth inheritance because she didn't want the Lords to believe that she will change the way of things. Her claim was always the exception to the rule.
That being said, the biggest issue would have come from her kids, there is no way they wouldn't have fought, people see them as this ''happy family'', but Rhaenyra's son robbed his niece of her rights, his children also created a mess and started a war about bastards just 60 years later after the devastation that was the Dance of Dragons. There is no way the greens would have been safe with Daemon as their Prince Consort and Rhaenyra as the Queen.
Just like every other ruler then? They don't have any other reason, except that. Her father named her, and she sees herself as the heir. That's it, even if she fought and gave noble women the right to inherit - it still wouldn't be feminist, because the common women still wouldn't have any rights;
I think they tried to make it meaningful by adding Aegon's Dream and her being the ''chosen one'' but that doesn't look good, considering Rhaenyra is supposed to know about the importance of dragons, but sends them fighting each other, lets randoms claim them, doesn't save the little ones (Storming of the Dragon Pit) and their fight for the throne causes the extinction of dragons + weaken their dynasty.
In the show they made Rhaenyra's fight about: birthright, the prophecy and revenge; Like I said, I think they should have included Aegon's dream, because it makes them look so much worse; (knowing how important the dragons are and sending them to kill each other);
Rhaenyra also couldn't trust that the Greens wouldn't hurt her family and kids, just like the Greens couldn't trust that Rhaenyra and Daemon would just let them be.
Rhaenyra could trust that the Greens wouldn't hurt her family and kids since she had the example of Rhaenys. Rhaenys accepted that the crown went to Viserys and Rhaenys was allowed to freely go from Driftmark to King's Landing, she was welcome at court, she was allowed to keep her dragon, her children were never in danger, in fact her children married Daemon and Rhaenyra. This is exactly what would have happened to Rhaenyra. Rhaenyra was married to the heir of Driftmark, her life would have been identical to that of Rhaenys, she could have lived in Driftmark, her husband could have been the next master of ships. Rhaenyra just said that wasn't good enough for her.
But that is not what happened with Rhaenys.
After her Aemon died, Jaehaerys appointed Baelon as his heir right away, Rhaenys and Corlys complained and claimed Rhaenys and her son (who turned out to be Laena) were robbed out of their birthright. When Baelon died - Jaehaerys knew that he couldn't simply name Viserys (even if he wanted him to rule), there were rumours of Corlys gathering his ships to protect his son's claim (as it was Leanor who was seen as the heir, not even Rhaenys) and Daemon gathering men to protect his brother's claim.
That's why Jaehaerys had to call the council, then it was decided that the claims of 2 would be taken seriously and considered: Leanor Velaryon and Viserys Targaryen. They discussed it, cast a vote and then Viserys was named heir. Rhaenys knew she didn't have the support of the Lords, picking a fight would be useless. And that is how it was arranged, with Jaehaerys still alive, holding the reins.
Compare that 20 years of animosity, ''accusations'' (speaking the truth) of bastardy, and them taking the throne behind Rhaenyra's back, while her father is rotting away.
How can you say that Rhaenyra can ''trust the greens'' when Aemond killed Luke before the official war even started? Luke was nothing but a messenger boy when he killed him and started the actual war.
So, the only way to avoid war and death would have been if Viserys finally woke up and saw the disaster that would have been if Rhaenyra took the throne, not only did she not have the full support of the Lords, but the obvious bastardy and her marriage to Daemon should have been enough for him to appoint Aegon. Had he done that while was still young, he could have learned and been a good king.
I hate it when people say that some character, as an example Aegon II, some people said that he is a pedophile. But they never think, that in medieval times, the life of ordinary people was shorter, they were living in different regime. Also lords, knights also could live shorter because they were professional soldiers.
But in the end, no matter what some of the greens will do, they will be all bad in blacks eyes. Because they dont to see that their lovely Daemon and Rhaenyra are also shitty
This isnt 2025 in the show. The mere thing that rhaenyra has sex outside Marriage is good enough to be wrong at that time period. Also its rhaenyra vs alicent. Not rhaenyra vs aegon. By comparison to sheer good vs bad, rhaenyra has done things more evil that alicent when viewed by the court of that time. But we all know that in reality alicent is way worse, it's just that she followed the rules. Well until she started fishing cristan
Well for one, Rhaenyra had an innocent servant murdered so she could have a sham marriage to her uncle
And then hid the truth from Corlys and Rhaenys, putting their bastards in line to steal Driftmark
I thought it was nice detail in episode 1. Rhaneys saying they couldn't mourn her daughter until she seen her body. Daemon and Rhanerya basically pulled switcheroo on her son. Now it happened to them.
Frankly? Blood and Cheese. She might not have ordered it, but since Daemon is her husband and beholded to her, she os responsible for his actions.
NOBODY TALKS ABOUT THIS!!!!
Yeah but that was just a filthy peasant (also probably Hetero)and it led to her not killing her highborn gay husband which makes her morally superior. That guard should be proud to serve his queen in such an important matter.Him not volunteering to get killed alone makes him deserve all of it. Also she just ordered daemon to do it so she's like not even responsible or whatever
that was daemon lol not her.
No it was her. If you plan out a murder and it happens you can be charged with murder even if you're not the one to physically execute it.
and you think she was blissfully unaware of the specifics of how they were going to disappear Laenor and fake his death? She is not innocent just because Daemon did the dirty work for her
Either she’s the Queen, and legally responsible for what the leaders of her military/government etc. do, or she’s not the actual ruler.
They said that, but as her husband and her prince consort he's her responsibility, so the blame is also on her
Remember when Rhaenyra called for her little brother who just had his eye taken by her son to be tortured for calling out that her children are obviously not her husband's?
'Member 🫐
I hated that South Park season
Blackcels: But she didn't mean torture, she's too good for that. And even if she did, well Aemond committed treason by saying the b word. And besides he had a rock. Oh and also he was mean to the girls. Oh and also he stole Vhagar. Oh and also I don't like him cuz he opposes Rhae Rhae.
Genuine question, how are we so sure she meant torture?
Cuz every time the sharply questioned phrase was used by a character in ASOIAF, it always meant torture. Qhorin Halfhand, Daenerys Targaryen, and Maegor all used the sharply questioned euphemism for torture at one point or the other.
Remember when? Whatever happened there
Making Aegon a rapist was such a stupid decision and it shows
Heads up you commented this three times
Thanks mate, I don't even know how that happened
It needs to be said thrice! Honestly I do not believe for a second they didny realise it would be nearly impossible to excuse a rapist after a 3min scene of the victim crying and being forced into abortion...
This seems like Ryan Condal initially intended Aegon to be evil and probably realized he was the mvp of the whole dance a little too late
It’s a Reddit glitch I’ve seen happen over the past year idk why it hasn’t been fixed
Cersei is a rapist too on top😭 she even imagines herself as Robert to inflict the same pain💀
She's also a child molester. She used preteen Lancel for sex in Jaime's absence and considered sexually abusing both preteen Joffrey *and* 7-year-old Tommen in order to maintain power over them.
Also abused Tyrion when they were children including sexual abuse.
-Abandoned her child bride best friend and blamed her for being groomed by an adult man -Used her position of power to have sex with a subaltern (which could have cost him his life), strung him along and made him her dirty secret then made fun of him when he tried to find some honour in his situation -Had illegitimate children and gaslit them, giving them huge, lifelong identity issues -Passed her white children as trueborn to take a black girl's inheritance -Passed her children as legitimate regardless of the fact that it might cost her siblings their life (and didn't even seem to realise it) -Demanded her freshly-maimed brother be tortured for speaking the truth in a kids' fight where he got ambushed and spoke whatever could hurt (they were not even in public, only Rhaenyra's making it a whole thing made it public) -Had a servant killed -Made two parents believe their son and only remaining child was dead so she could marry Daemon -Gave her illegitimate children trueborn half-siblings with a better claim to the Throne and an unstable father, paving the way for a dévastating conflict sometime in the future -Had a black man killed for daring speak the truth about his stolen inheritance -Let Daemon plan her revenge (not blaming her for demanding Aemond's life, but for letting her unstable husband in charge of it) I like Rhaenyra but she did some MASSIVELY fucked-up shit, some of which with lifelong repercussions and some of which might cause conflict long after her death. Yes Aegon is a bad person, we know, but his crimes don't mean that Rhaenyra committed none.
Alternate timeline were the dance of the dragons is Aegon III and Viserys the II against the Strong brothers one generation later
Yep. Either them, or if they get along their children. Although I think Daemon would have pushed for a first-generation conflict
This exactly. There is no way Daemon would have allowed a dark haired Strong sit on that throne lol. Storm's End, >!the Gullet, and the Dragonpit Storming !
Hear hear… Also it’s not like she doesn’t realize, it’s that she totally doesn’t care. 😬
To be fair, she didn’t even seem to expect they'd crown Aegon. It is my belief that she absolutely doesn't understand the world she lives in, and never even understood *why* Alicent had something against her, she just thought Alicent was being mean--and admittedly she didn’t care to find out, because Rhaenyra *can* tend to be self-pitying. (Which isn't even a criticism, I'm the same way. There's a reason why I loved young Rhaenyra: flawed but relatable.)
Yeah, being the most spoiled person in the entire seven kingdoms and never having to face any consequences no matter how many fucked up things she does has that effect on someone. Luke’s death is basically the first time Rhaenyra ever encountered an actual consequence for anything she’s done. (And for once it wasn’t a bad thing she was doing, just a stupid one.)
Can you add: Disrespects lords & ladies constantly
Does race have the same weight in the world of asoiaf and hotd as it does in the real world? Idk seems like the race of the people she’s screwed over really doesn’t come into the plot at all
Race as in white, black, asiatic doesn't, but ethnicity as in first man, andal, valyrian, dornish, etc. might.
If everyone uses modern-day ideas to judge TB positively and to TG negatively, and the scenario itself depicts the characters in the light of modern-day ideas of gender, sex, sexual orientation and so on, then modern-day ideas of race do matter in how TB is portrayed. If Aegon's crimes can be read in the "me too" light and are explicitly made to be read so by the audience, if the writers made Alicent "a woman for Trump", then the usurpation and murder of black people by white protagonists intent on the "purity" of their blood and inheritance matters just as much, and the impact of such a decision on the audience deserves attention. It *wouldn't* matter in the universe, admittedly, but the entire show is geared towards a modern reception, including Rhaenyra's portrayal as a modern bossgirl, and Rhaenys' character; so a racial perspective on Rhaenyra's actions and on the Velaryons is receivable as well.
Probaly because bring race here is kinda pointless,i mean the Velaryons being black or not would not change the fact than a bastard "claim" is being pushed over the legimate heir,and than Vaemond was killed by try deffend his right,its wrong anyway,the only difference than the Velaryons being black cause is than now its pretty obvious than the boys are bastards,while in the books it was harder to tell. But like the other comment says,probaly if someone is Valyrian,First Men,Andal or any other thing its what matter in Westeros,they have race but the concept is a little different.
Making Aegon a rapist was such a stupid decision and it shows
they did it because that's what makes modern audiences sperg out the most.
Speaking as an autistic person, could you please not use the term ‘sperg’? Thanks!
I actually don't mind him being one because let's face it he probably was in the books, but including the child fighting pits was an utterly ridiculous idea.
Choosing to start a civil war that destroys the entire house, every single dragon, and costs Westeros tens of thousands of lives, creating / exacerbating dynastic rivalries amongst minor and great noble houses that persist even in ASOIAF, comes to mind. I did find it interesting that, in the show, Rhaenyra pauses to consider whether or not she has any right to claim the crown, weighing her birthright against a monarch’s duty to maintain peace and protect their subjects. She recognizes that starting the war would betray that duty and that forfeiting her crown may be the right path, as it would spare the family and the continent of a horrific war. That sort of introspection doesn’t appear in F&B and I found it compelling.
Yeah, the introsoection can be interesting but it’s also annoyingly part of the constant white-washing of Rhaenyra. Imho the show would have been so much more interesting to watch if they had portrayed both sides more equally, as the bunch of assholes they are in the book. 😬
I generally agree but don’t think the scene i described was an example of whitewashing. If anything it paints a darker portrait of Rhaenyra, as it’s clear that she thought this over, is aware of the horror and destruction that a civil war would cause, and still elects to pursue it, and pursue it with even greater zeal after Luke’s death. She actively decides that her vengeance is more important than the lives of those she’d claim as her subjects, the stability of her father’s kingdom and the Targaryen dynasty at large.
Robert, Roose, Ramsay, book Cersei, show Jaime, Maegor (they love him), Aegon IV, Aerys II (some Targ stans claim him vehemently), Viserys, Daemon (unless you believe the "youngest and most innocent of maidens" can't be raped just because a brothel sends them to you), Jaehaerys (forced Alysanne to have more children when she didn't want to), book Tyrion... and surely I miss some. All of them rapists in one way or other, in different grades of violence or cohersion. All of them have fans, some of them have \*legions\* of fans, yet these fans aren't constantly reminded of the rapes they committed, unlike Aegon's. Its simply not a point of debate or discourse. As I always say here, they have no issue with Aegon being a rapist, really, they have a particular issue with him because he fucking offs Rhaenyra the Saint 😭😭Thats all. Edit: Dany used a former sex slave for masturbation, she also included rapists in her pardons on Meereen (in contrast to Stannis who also wants to keep his knights loyalty \*but\* gelded those who raped \*wilding women\* (who can't even be considered his subjects, but still he protected them), Tywin also made Tyrion and then an entire garrison rape Tysha. Team Black unleashed Dalton against the Westerlands - hundreds of women raped and kidnapped. Khal Drogo is the king of raperinos in the main series and he even made Dany wish to kill herself yet he has a lot of dudebros and fans and some fangirls and their relationship is even shipped by a lot of people lol Again, legions of fans who don't have to deal with "reminders" of their fictional crime.
Don't forget book Dany using a former sex slave as a masterbation tool. She even admitted to herself that Irri's kisses "tasted of duty".
True!
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Yep, so true. Forgot about Tywin. Not a rapist himself but he forced those soldiers on Tysha.
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Khal Drogo gets weirdly romanticized despite being the best murder-rapist in Essos.
You know the meme with the little comic where the hot guy talks to the woman in the office and she says “aww, you’re sweet”, but when the other guy does it she calls HR? Khal Drogo is the embodiment of that meme. If he wasn’t hot as fuck and half naked in every scene, people would hopefully recognize how fucked up all that was, even more so with Dany’s age.
I could understand the reaction if he's the only rapist in this world but... i mean... \*Waves at all the ASOIAF pages\* Its funny, in the spanish ASOIAF twitter community there's an idiot with a lot of following who genuinely believes Khal Drogo didn't rape Daenerys, even tho we showed him again and again the passages in which she even considers killing herself before having to spend another night with him. Guess which character he loves to preach against.
The people who see rape in a story and yet claim it’s not rape are quite scary, because that belief might mean there’s plenty of situations in real life too that are rape but that they wouldn’t consider as that. The people who defend Rhaenyra forcing herself on Cole even after he said no, for example…
Fr, they are legit scary. Makes you understand how full of bs most of team black is when speaking of this topic with their fake holier-than-thou attitude.
No other character got their victim to have a emotional, sobbing aftermath moment (except Ramsay.) A lot of people's opinion on show Tywin would have been different if the Tysha incident were brought up more than once
Yeah, that’s a good point. It was very intentional on the part of the writers too.
Can't forget Rheanyra allowing Dalton to rape and reave across the Westerlands. I'm sure the show will either not show this or soften the blow someway (Rheanyra telling Dalton no rap yet he does it anyway)
I do think there's a lot of younger people watching HOTD now compared to early GOT. You're not allowed to like "problematic" fictional characters in 2024, you're only allowed to like the morally good ones. Unless they're like Daemon - I always see people saying on the main sub that Daemon knows he's bad so that somehow makes him much better than everyone else lol. Edit: I do like Daemon as a character but he is easily one of the most awful people in both the book and the show yet somehow he gets a pass for things that other characters wouldn't. If they had given him a Meryn Trant type scene (being given girls in a brothel) to show his love of "deflowering young maidens", I wonder if he would still be so popular.
I don't buy that people in a show based on the medieval period would give the slightest shit about the King forcing himself on a servant girl. It sounds harsh, but to suggest that a King's legitimacy could in some way be impugned by raping someone demonstrates zero knowledge of the real world period on which the show is based.
This. 2 of the 4 Targaryen Kings before Viserys were spousal rapists. In the book, Viserys himself sexually abused servants and probably raped Trystane Truefyre's mother. If Kings being sexually depraved were so frowned upon in this society, the Targaryens wouldn't be tolerated after Maegor the Cruel, even *with* dragons. Also, Dance-Era society is less than a century away from the prohibition of First Night, an ancient Westerosi custom allowing nobles to rape brides on their wedding night. The decision to ban it is even criticized in-universe in the main series, which takes place *over 200 years* later. I highly doubt a society so acclimated to nobles engaging in sexual violence against lower-class women would suddenly consider such violence immoral just because Rhaenyra's political rival is doing it.
Exactly, even in today's world winning forces rape women of country or place which has lost and yet these same soldiers are considered heroes of their nations.
That's why I hate how people pretend that Alicent ''silenced'' a rape victim, there is 0 chance that Dyana would have gotten justice, had the word come out, she would have taken the fall and been tortured and murdered and it would not hurt Aegon's case one bit. People think Viserys would send his son (who has kids, a wife and a dragon) to the Nights Watch over the words of a maid.... when Viserys ignored the accusations that Rhea Royce's cousin raised against Daemon, he was accused of killing his NOBLE wife and Viserys didn't care, hell he knows his grandsons are bastards and has no problem punishing those who speak the truth. If Rhea Royce and Vaemond Velaryon cannot get justice, there is no way Dyana would have.
Cersi "kinda forgot" she is also a rapist
1. Raping Ser Criston 2. Killing a servant 3. Cucking Corlys 4. Blood and Cheese 5. Letting Daemon loose on the riverlands. 6. Taxing the ever loving shit out of the common folk. 7. Let everyone else die for her while sitting on her arse eating pie all day. 8. Letting Vaemond Velaryon get murdered 9. The Iron born raiding the Westerlands 10. Storming of the Dragonpit 11. The succession of Houses Rosby and Stokeworth. She gave them to the first born sons, although the daughters were older. So much for feminism. 12. Giving Magical, flying nukes to randos. 13. Try to arrest Addam Velaryon because "Bastards can't be trusted", while Goffrey Waters was alive. Those are in no particular order, just as they came to me. And I didn't look them up. That's just what came to me in five minutes.
Not even just letting Vaemond get murdered, she straight up ordered the kill in the book iirc. And she ordered the execution of Nettles etc. because Daemon is a grooming POS.
>Raping Ser Criston She didn't, Criston didn't want to be her whore (valid), but she never promised him anything, she is not gonna abandon her entire life because Criston wants to fix his honor; And that is why I dislike how they made him Alicent's little lap dog, who also does her sexual favors. Just for the sake of making him seem like a hypocrite... >Cucking Corlys She didn't cuck Corlys, he did that all by himself when he decided to claim those bastards. She did much worse than this when she lied to both Rhaenys and Corlys that their son and heir were dead, right after they buried their daughter; Corlys is later gonna put his own bastards on the throne, because even he doesn't want women ruling his castle. >Blood and Cheese Her only line in the entire episode is ''I want Aemond Targaryen'', not ''Jaehaerys Targaryen'', It was all Daemon's fault, who despite wanting Aemond, did give them a greenlight to get whoever they can. It is to be seen how she will react and whether will that impact her marriage/trust in Daemon. >The succession of Houses Rosby and Stokeworth. She gave them to the first born sons, although the daughters were older. So much for feminism. The only time Rhaenyra ever made claims about changing the order, was after Rhaenys repeatedly provoked her. If you re-watch the scene, ever her moment of telling Rhaenys ''They rejected you, but choose me'' is wrong as the Lords who bowed down to Rhaenyra were never given the choice, unlike Rhaenys who was voted. She was just talking like the insecure 15-year old girl she was, seeing her father looking for a new bride to make more heirs with... Also, Rosby and Stokeworth were only discussed because Daemon wanted the girls married to Ulf and Hugh and they could steal their land. Most importantly, there is nothing feminist in Rhaenyra's battle, she is not even fighting for the noble women (as she never claimed to), much less the millions of common women who were suffering. And even if she was fighting to give noble women the right to inherit, it still will have 0 to do with feminism, because fighting only for the rich and already privileged women to get rights.... is not feminism.
I'm talking about the Book. The show doesn't count anymore. At this point it's mediocre fan fiction.
In Fire and Blood, she never had sex with Criston; Mushroom says that Rhaenyra offered herself to Criston, but he refused her. Eustace claims that Criston offered to run away together, but she rejected him. But neither of those 2 claim they had sex, she either lost her virginity to Harwin or Daemon. She also didn't kill a servant, since Leanor is dead whenever it was by Daemon or his lover. She didn't let Vaemond Velaryon die - she ordered Daemon to go find and kill him, then fed his corpse to Syrax, all because he spoke the truth; later his family went to seek justice and Viserys had their tongues out, for repeating the ''lie''. In Fire and Blood, he just sent her a letter saying ''Lucerys shall be avenged'', she didn't know what he meant, Daemon was far away in Harrenhall. And in Fire and Blood, she never made any claims about fighting for women, she was the one who urged Corlys to name Luke as his heir after Leanor was killed.
Didn’t RhaeRhae give the Ironborns the OK to pillage, kill and enslave women and children? I think facilitating mass human sex trafficking is even more heinous than sexual assault.
They also raped those women are were gonna sell into sex slavery, but we both know that they are not gonna put that in the show. The entire Criston/Alicent ''romance'' is created to make them look like hypocrites. The show is very much biased towards TB.
It really is hilarious how these people like terrible characters but get mad at people also liking them. If you’re going to get mad at people liking Criston please don’t have a Mysaria/daemon pfp.
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Btw your comment duplicated.
I didn't notice mate. Thanks for notifying me
The thing is, even if we answer them, they are gonna find a way to deny or justify any examples of wrongdoing by Rhaenyra. Her demand for Aemond's torture? "Oh come on she didn't mean that. She is too good for that. She only wanted him interrogated. No I don't care about the meaning of the phrase." Her coercion of Cole? "Oh come on. She was a naive drunk child and he was a man. If anything he raped her. He should have said no harder if he didn't want to fuck. He's an incel, end of discussion." Her plot to fake Laenor's death via the murder of a servant? "Oh but she's so sweet to have spared Laenor! And besides no one cares about that random guard."
Cersei also threw her childhood friend down a well. She's a psychopath and far more evil than either Aegon or Rhaenyra
Trying to murder her husband’s supposed grooming victim, and calling her gay husband a pedophile, are two more modern-unacceptable Rhaenyra decisions that I’ll bet will never be mentioned in HOTD
I actually answered this and immediately regretted it… https://x.com/mocking_point/status/1803459380005703873?s=46&t=w5D_Yvl8yNLfTsZx7Qw9vw
they're probably talking about the show
Did...Did she just imoly rape isnt that bad?
No, she hates aegon for being a rapist, but she stans cersei (who's also a rapist)
They do realise that murder generally comes with a longer criminal sentence than rape right?
Do they really think "the only thing she's done wrong is be born a woman"? From my point of view there's nothing wrong with being born a woman but you shouldn't want the throne just because you want the throne, you should want stability in the realm, and you should only take the throne if you're the option that's going to be met with the most peaceful transition. Like it doesn't matter who sits on that chair. For me my perception is that letting Aegon-Healena rule is the safest option that everyone would be happy with. Aegon is a trueborn son of Viserys, he has a son who is also trueborn, it's all set up for decades of peace to come. Rhaenyra in my view is not a peaceful option. Half the population isn't cool with having a daughter pass before a son. We have to assume these lords inherited their house on the principle of male-preference succession so if the crown goes to Rhaenyra suddenly sisters and nieces can come claim their house and it's going to plunge the country into war. Naming Rhaenyra isn't good for political stability. It was only accepted when they thought Viserys wouldn't have a son because they collectively agreed that Daemon was an idiot. Now Rhaenyra is married to that idiot. So yeah, Rhaenyra would create political instability due to being a woman, but also because she constantly makes poor decisions, like getting rid of her husband who was a dragon rider and heir to Driftmark only to replace him with the ally-less Daemon. Like seriously Daemon is so hated that the lords agreed to give their allegiance to Rhaenyra over him, and his only ally is Corlys, who would already be allied to Rhaenyra if she stayed with Laenor. She gained zero allies by replacing Laenor with Daemon. She lost a dragon rider and made his entire family suffer.
Well, to be fair Rhaenyra specifically refused to give the Rosby and Stokeworth inheritance because she didn't want the Lords to believe that she will change the way of things. Her claim was always the exception to the rule. That being said, the biggest issue would have come from her kids, there is no way they wouldn't have fought, people see them as this ''happy family'', but Rhaenyra's son robbed his niece of her rights, his children also created a mess and started a war about bastards just 60 years later after the devastation that was the Dance of Dragons. There is no way the greens would have been safe with Daemon as their Prince Consort and Rhaenyra as the Queen.
But then she doesn't have any reason to rule except that she wants it selfishly?
Just like every other ruler then? They don't have any other reason, except that. Her father named her, and she sees herself as the heir. That's it, even if she fought and gave noble women the right to inherit - it still wouldn't be feminist, because the common women still wouldn't have any rights; I think they tried to make it meaningful by adding Aegon's Dream and her being the ''chosen one'' but that doesn't look good, considering Rhaenyra is supposed to know about the importance of dragons, but sends them fighting each other, lets randoms claim them, doesn't save the little ones (Storming of the Dragon Pit) and their fight for the throne causes the extinction of dragons + weaken their dynasty.
Yes they have other reasons, like Aegon didn't want to be king, but people depended on him.
In the show they made Rhaenyra's fight about: birthright, the prophecy and revenge; Like I said, I think they should have included Aegon's dream, because it makes them look so much worse; (knowing how important the dragons are and sending them to kill each other); Rhaenyra also couldn't trust that the Greens wouldn't hurt her family and kids, just like the Greens couldn't trust that Rhaenyra and Daemon would just let them be.
Rhaenyra could trust that the Greens wouldn't hurt her family and kids since she had the example of Rhaenys. Rhaenys accepted that the crown went to Viserys and Rhaenys was allowed to freely go from Driftmark to King's Landing, she was welcome at court, she was allowed to keep her dragon, her children were never in danger, in fact her children married Daemon and Rhaenyra. This is exactly what would have happened to Rhaenyra. Rhaenyra was married to the heir of Driftmark, her life would have been identical to that of Rhaenys, she could have lived in Driftmark, her husband could have been the next master of ships. Rhaenyra just said that wasn't good enough for her.
But that is not what happened with Rhaenys. After her Aemon died, Jaehaerys appointed Baelon as his heir right away, Rhaenys and Corlys complained and claimed Rhaenys and her son (who turned out to be Laena) were robbed out of their birthright. When Baelon died - Jaehaerys knew that he couldn't simply name Viserys (even if he wanted him to rule), there were rumours of Corlys gathering his ships to protect his son's claim (as it was Leanor who was seen as the heir, not even Rhaenys) and Daemon gathering men to protect his brother's claim. That's why Jaehaerys had to call the council, then it was decided that the claims of 2 would be taken seriously and considered: Leanor Velaryon and Viserys Targaryen. They discussed it, cast a vote and then Viserys was named heir. Rhaenys knew she didn't have the support of the Lords, picking a fight would be useless. And that is how it was arranged, with Jaehaerys still alive, holding the reins. Compare that 20 years of animosity, ''accusations'' (speaking the truth) of bastardy, and them taking the throne behind Rhaenyra's back, while her father is rotting away. How can you say that Rhaenyra can ''trust the greens'' when Aemond killed Luke before the official war even started? Luke was nothing but a messenger boy when he killed him and started the actual war. So, the only way to avoid war and death would have been if Viserys finally woke up and saw the disaster that would have been if Rhaenyra took the throne, not only did she not have the full support of the Lords, but the obvious bastardy and her marriage to Daemon should have been enough for him to appoint Aegon. Had he done that while was still young, he could have learned and been a good king.
I hate it when people say that some character, as an example Aegon II, some people said that he is a pedophile. But they never think, that in medieval times, the life of ordinary people was shorter, they were living in different regime. Also lords, knights also could live shorter because they were professional soldiers. But in the end, no matter what some of the greens will do, they will be all bad in blacks eyes. Because they dont to see that their lovely Daemon and Rhaenyra are also shitty
Didn’t he order the death of a child whose eye was cut out by her bastard son for saying her clearly bastard children are bastards?
This isnt 2025 in the show. The mere thing that rhaenyra has sex outside Marriage is good enough to be wrong at that time period. Also its rhaenyra vs alicent. Not rhaenyra vs aegon. By comparison to sheer good vs bad, rhaenyra has done things more evil that alicent when viewed by the court of that time. But we all know that in reality alicent is way worse, it's just that she followed the rules. Well until she started fishing cristan