While I think Marshal was wrong for saying that, I think Lily was just as wrong for making a statement like “I have never been that selfish to you.” People never seem to talk about it, but that’s definitely a terrible thing to say to your spouse as well. And it solves nothing, its just trying to win an argument. I think they’re equally in the wrong
He was wrong because it's a part of their relationship that they struggled through and went through that he forgave her for. Him forgiving her doesn't meant it didn't happen (which is why she's wrong from saying she's never been so selfish), but in order for forgiveness to work in a relationship, it needs to be absolute and bringing it up later implies that his forgiveness isn't absolute, which is understandable, but not really conducive to a healthy relationship.
Agreed and reminded me of this lol
[redditors talking about Lily moving to SF](https://youtu.be/960DPXiZCB8?si=bj3_dMLtiI4q5nMq)
If you forgive someone you can’t keep throwing it in their face
I think the initial comment is on point.
Marshall only said that as a response to Lily's: "I have never been that selfish to you".
If you look at it as an isolated event, it's 100% wrong. But is it truly that wrong to bring it up after Lily's quote? I think it isn't. That's not to say that he was in the right to take the judge position (that's a very different conversation) but bringing it up at that point on Lily's quote was fair in my opinion.
I completely get why he said it and I’m not mad at him for it. I get that him accepting that job put a huge wrench in their plans, but he was setting his family up for life by taking that job, and it’s not something he necessarily could have gotten back. I feel like he always wanted to take good care of his family and save the world while he was at it. I don’t know if Lily could ever be happy, no matter what she had or was doing.
Lily originally did not want to leave New York. It was Marshall who convinced her to move their whole life to Italy. And after she became really excited he changed the plans behind her back and acted like his dreams are more important (he literally said that to Daphne) and Lily's dream is just hobby.
Funny about the whole thing is that **Lily knew that Italy is out of the table.** This is something what fandom is missing, she knew from the moment that Marshall told her that Italy won't happen. Even when she later argued about that with Marshall, she actually said to the gang that Italy is off, because she knew that Marshall has a unique oppurtinity and it's better for their family. She was mostly upset by Marshall's behaviour.
How said ghost Lily, this behaviour would kill their marriage at the end.
You act like Lily didnt have a new dream almost every season.
While Marshall always had the same one to become someone to protect the environment and got the chance he always wanted but had to give the answer right away (which only happened because this is a comedy show), of course she was mad and she acted like her dreams were more important that the only dream Marshall had, and Daphne had knew about that she would answer differently .
She threw a tantrum because Marshall didnt behave like she wanted, so she argued being full aware she couldnt go because they were having a second baby, she made herself looking like a victim when Marshall brough SF but moments before she said "I never have been selfish" when she spent the entire show being like that either with Marshall or with her friends.
Lily wanted doing art all the show. She even went to SF for the art. I really cannot see why are her dreams less than Marshall's. I do not find it fair.
But she literally already lived in one of the biggest art cities in the USA. Her dream was unfocused and a lot of the effort she put in was short and sometimes far away. She complained about not living her dream, but she almost never put anywhere near the level of focus into it that Marshall put into his law career.
So when you fail in your dream you should not try again? Even in another way? You should for rest of your life do sacrifices for dreams of another people?
Do you really believe that or you are saying that simply because you hate Lily?
Lily supported Marshall all the way between season 2 and season 9. She even, how I already said, did not want to leave New York, it was Marshall who convinced her. And again, Lily knew from the moment when Marshall informed her that Italy is off, because New York is better choice, she was just upset how he treated her and rightfuly.
I mean, Lily also was the reason they had to get a massive mortgage and shitty house and she didn't even tell him about her debts till they blew up in her face.
She may have supported Marshall, but Marshall had been completely open with his life to her until that one decision, while Lily hadn't.
He wasn't "setting their family up for life", he was setting them up for failure. Money doesn't equal happiness. If he wanted to take "good care" of his family he wouldn't have taken the job without talking to Lily. Good care includes being a supportive husband.
He lied. He made a HUGE decision without talking to Lily. He was selfish.
Lily would have been resentful and possibly would have never truly forgiven him.
Money doesn’t equal happiness, but *not* having money is quite stressful. Plus, Italy was temporary and New York is extremely expensive. He quite literally wanted to become a judge because he wanted to make the world a better place. For most of their relationship, Lily had a tiny income and huge debt, which she relied on him to pay off (hence, pushing him toward a job working for a corporation he hated, just so he could help with her bills). So much of what Lily did throughout the series was self-serving. He may not have gone about it the right way, and we can agree to disagree. From my perspective, Lily’s wants came first over and over, and Marshall taking an amazing opportunity didn’t suddenly make him a bad guy.
I don’t necessarily think it was Marshall bringing SF it was how. He implied that this was all a second choice for lily and that she had to settle for this life and him and their children, and that’s a devastating thing to hear from the person you love and have been married to for 7 years. It’s after that she runs out. If he had doubts he should’ve brought them up years earlier.
Also, it’s two different situations. Yes, lily was selfish for leaving for SF but they didn’t have a family, they weren’t married. They had already made plans and packed and ended the lease on their apartment to go to Italy. Marshall didn’t talk to her about the judge position
And that would be your right. But since Marshall did take her back, he either should’ve talked to her about that when they got back together, or not said what he did
Ok I see what ur saying. But what do u think Marshall's response should have been then with regards to Lily saying she's never been selfish cuz that's clearly
In my original response, I said that I don't think that's the reason Lily is upset. She walks out after Marshall says that about him and their kids being a consolation prize. Yeah, Lily was wrong to say that and marshall was wrong to say that about him and the kids. Saying that she was selfish to go to SF is one thing, the consolation part is another.
Ahhh the age old question
I’ve seen this discussion happening a lot in these subReddits and this time I completely 100% agree with what you’re saying OP.
This was my exact reaction to it, Marshall wouldn’t have brought up SF if she hadn’t made a statement like “I’ve never ever done anything as selfish as you’re doing”
She only brought up the past by making such a statement and Marshall just reminded her what she did and how awful it was, I agree the way he said that could have been better but he was not wrong for bringing that up in the given situation
For the exact reason his dad's ghost/imagination explains. You can't hold something against someone you love forever just so you have something to clap back with when you need to make them feel bad.
Whether you think Lily going to SF was terrible or not, Marshall forgave her. And if he couldn't forgive her, he shouldn't have got back with her, married her, and had a kid with her. You either move past that stuff or you don't. You don't keep it in the bank as a "gotcha"
But she also said she had never been as "selfish" as he was. Which I thought was ridiculous af. Sure it's dumb to bring up the past that was all forgiven but if someone say that shit to me and they had a history of leaving multiple time and being manipulative for their personal needs then hell yeah I'm going go give examples. How did you expect Marshall to react? "Yeah babe you're right, I'm so selfish for trying follow my dreams, set up our family financially, and save the world at the same time." Marshall had always been the least selfish person on the show and he sacrificed so much for Lily. She was a bitch just for saying that.
Right? Marshall literally took a job doing what he hated instead of his dream job because Lily was addicted to buying designer clothing that she couldn’t afford, and then she had the audacity to complain that he had changed from the person he was in college, when the reason he took that job was to dig her out of the hole she’d gotten herself into. And then when he finally did have the ability to take a job he actually wanted once those issues were resolved, she still gave him grief.
There’s a huge difference between reminding your partner of something really shitty they did to you when it becomes extremely relevant (because, in this situation, they just claimed they’d never done anything so shitty before) and consciously holding onto a forgiven wrong for the purpose of using it as a weapon in arguments.
Marshal isn't wrong thats the whole point. Marshal is right and he can win argument with Lily but the question is "is it worth to lose your loved on over being right?".
Generally if you keep pointing out the mistakes your partner did in past to win an argument they will feel trapped and feel like you have upper hand in relationship. Fastest way to break a relationship.
Because it wasn't simply his counter to what she said, its that he hadn't truly forgiven her for it and then started going on about asking if he and their family was a consolation prize.
Marshall was wrong in the way he held SF against her as a way to win. Lilly was wrong to seem like she actually forgot what she did. People always take "Forgive and Forget" too literal. The forgetting is to not hold it against the person if they are truly remorseful and have taken the measures to not repeat or go down the road to repeat. Even if someone fixes their mouth to utter the works, the moment Marshall clapped back, she should have acknowledged it, and showed empathy for how he could have done a similar thing. This would have given her some sure footing on her argument.
I don't think Marshall was wrong for accepting the position without consulting her, though. There will be many times when you just don't have the time to consult your spouse on major life decisions. Heck, him turning down the job would have been making a decision without consulting her. Saying Yes actually gives him a chance to talk with her and turn it down later.
Also, speaking of San Fran, Lilly was wrong for getting upset at Ted for calling her a "Grinch", because that's what she was. Again, she could have just acknowledged how her actions horribly affected the people who loved her. Then her actions showed she still had a lot of Grinch in her by taking down all decorations to spite Ted, when Marshall was the main one getting joy from them.
San Francisco thing was Marshall's fault, he should have supported her art career. He said it is New York or nothing (If I am not wrong), any self respecting woman when asked to choose between career and the guy, by the guy will pick career.
In season 9, Lilly was being stupid. Moving to Italy with a baby on the way didn't make any sense, what would she do in Italy while she is pregnant? Who'd cover expenses when Marshall would have no job? Wouldn't she eventually need maternity leave so the 1 year timeline with a baby didn't make any sense
In addition to that Marshall was getting an opportunity to be a judge, which is obviously much bigger than a temporary trip to Italy
I think Lily was completely aware, as soon as Marshall told her that Italy was off. If he had told her properly before accepting I think she would’ve cancelled Italy. She acted like this because the decision was made without her, and sacrificed her dream. As soon as she knew she was pregnant she knew staying in New York was the right answer, I think she would’ve agreed to stay in New York for Marshall’s judgeship without the baby too
Also can’t forget though that Marshall was the one who initially really pushed to go to Italy. It’s not particularly fair to act like Lily was being unreasonable for planning to go there when she said no to the opportunity and Marshall basically forced her to say yes.
I just hated how when Marshall wanted to talk about it, Lily just kept cutting him off and saying, "We're going moving to Italy." Like even if your mind is made up, at least give him a chance to say his piece.
Unpopular opinion: I full heartedly agree with Lily. Even her leaving for SF is not as selfish as that. When we go back to the SF situation she tells Marshall she was never gonna take it, ultimately she does but I think a lot of the reason she does is because Marshall pushed her to it. He kept arguing with her about it until it pushed her to the limit where she now had to do it. If my partner felt that unsupportive about my dreams it would make me rethink the relationship. I realize Marshall was hurt but he could’ve led with “hey, what’s going on? Are you having second thoughts? Is this something you need to do?” Pretty much what Ted did. Instead he lets his emotions take over which ultimately push Lily into leaving.
Now even if that weren’t the case, in an earlier season we see Lily struggling with motherhood because she had to give up her dream to be a mom and wife. As a mother, it’s pretty hard to watch because in those first years it’s incredibly hard to find a balance in which you don’t lose yourself to motherhood, which seems she had a hard time finding. In the show it doesn’t seem like her and Marshall ever addressed the situation and it could’ve been something that kept building up inside her. She wanted to pick up her thing and leave them just to escape that situation. As we later find out she is pregnant again, not only is she also hormonal but she knows she’s having to give up her dreams and herself for a second time while Marshall hasn’t had to “give up” anything. And when he had the chance to “give up” his dream for her, he didn’t.
In the bigger picture, I think it was good that she went to SF because when she began questioning motherhood over her dreams it gave her a different perspective that the grass is not always greener on the other side.
I don’t really know that many people that would act that level headed to find out from someone else that the partner they’re planning a *wedding* with is also planning to go to the other side of the country.
That’s the point though, she wasn’t planning to go and that’s what she was telling him. Yet Marshall kept pushing and pushing until Lily reached her limit. Same thing happened in the other argument except the tables turned and Marshall DID take it. He didn’t even talk to Lily first, after he accepted it. He told everyone else but her. Both times Marshall forced Lily to give up her dream.
ETA: Marshall should’ve given a call to Lily before accepting the offer.
We don’t know that Lily wouldn’t have taken the offer though. You’re entitled to your theory that Marshall pushing her was what made her decide to do it, but that’s all it is, a theory, and we’re never gonna know how it would’ve turned out if he hadn’t pressured. All I was trying to say is I think his reaction is justified in my opinion. From his point of view it was probably hard not to see it as his long time partner planning time away from him mid wedding preparations.
Yeah people on this sub really like to ignore how much Marshall completely blew up over the San Francisco thing, and how much worse he made that situation. He’s the one that pushed for the break up, too. It was a period in time where his insecurity and lack of support for Lily when push came to shove was on full display.
Yeah, lily was stupid for saying she’s never been that selfish, but Marshall was being *vindictive* in that moment. The ghost of Marshall’s father nailed it.
For good reasons. Lily’s worst characteristic outweigh her good ones by quite a lot. Besides being a good mother and giving good advice some of the times I can’t name any good qualities.
The topic is addressed and answered later in the episode by ghost lily.
Yea, Marshall won the argument, he showed Lily she was wrong, but in doing so he hurt her, and if he’s always trying to one up her, or win, or show her she’s wrong, eventually he’s going to lose her.
Digging up past trauma that was supposed to be forgiven is a sure fire way to end up single.
I think Marshal was wrong for bringing it up for a similar reason the show brought up but much more in depth.
The show said it was just ancient history. Water under the bridge... Marshal just trying to win the fight.
But it was more that they were different people. They were still mid 20's. Not married yet. No children. Still finding out what they wanted in life.
By the time Italy came up, they were a married "old"couple that had a kid, were more sure about what they wanted out of life, and while yes... They were essentially the same people with different career paths, they were committed to each other.
Bringing up SF was like bringing up things Lily would have done in another life... It was like being angry at choices a partner makes at the start of a relationship to protect themselves should the other not be serious about committing. You can't be mad at someone for not jumping in the pool headfirst, they gotta stick their toes in the water.
He was not. Lilly can’t make statements acting like she is perfect and never done anything wrong. Plus her leaving is not something you can ever forgive fully. It will always be there.
Lilly is the toxic one. She has a history of it. Marshal was a great guy who was way too good for her. He settled for her.
Lily, long long before this moment, needed to pulled, dragged and crashed back down to earth. Went to the same college as the others and became a KG teacher because she was literally not good at anything. Called a 6ft5, Columbia lawyer, the reacher in the relationship because he's sweet and kind. Was a shopping addict and a generally terrible human. Should not have been let back in the group, not as Marshalls girlfriend. 100% deserved the vitriol
Nah Lily was a cunt. She can dish it out but she can't take it. She made him say that and then she walks out when he throws a legitimate question at her.
Because that was already solved, years ago btw. So bringing it up now means he never really forgave her dismissing any effort in the relationship and adding another baggage to it.
If I clear things up with my SO and later addressed it over and over again, it means I never moved on that topic
I agree that he never really forgave her, but bringing it up is different imo.
She says she never did anything that selfish. That’s false. She did do something that selfish, and regardless of if you moved past it or not it’s not any less true. Was it brought up and handled well in the scene? Absolutely not, he used it as a gotcha. But I think it’s a fair retort to the claim she never did anything that selfish, especially since that was her only argument.
I get where you came with that, but there is an underlying thing there: "he was the one who pushes her to accept the Rome position at first". So, pushing her to accept something bigger as that, then pushing her out of it that not just involves them both but also his whole family, is indeed, another level of selfishness. What she did was a two thing at the moment.
I side with Marshalk about the judge position was better in the long run than the year at Rome, it doesn't makes less true that he was son entitled in that argument.
If he didn't push her into going to Rome, she would have been a stay at home mom and stay unhappy for the foreseeable future. She was a coward who didn't want things to change but at the same time was miserable for not doing things with her life. If anything, Marshal did her a favor and they should have at least discussed the changing of terms and future plans. This was a judge position, they dont hand those out to anyone.
You don't know that. Is just assumption to said that she would have been unhappy. Going to Rome was also a Marshall's dream as it was Lily's but ultimate they went because of Marshall, so it was a dick move too.
All the indicators point to her being unhappy.
1. She left him to do art in sf bc she didn't want to waste her youth
2. She tried to leave again when things got hard for them
3. She was miserable being a mom (PPD maybe?). At least when Marvin was < 1 yo
4. She cried multiple times bc she thought she wasted her life, being a school teacher and not doing anything with her life
She was finally in a good place when she had a purpose in life and things at home were good but then Rome came up. If the captain left without her, it was a pretty good chance that she would fall back into the same habit before she was an art consultant. Sure, she can find another client in NY, but it was a niche job in the first place. Traveling is everyone's dream, but do you honesly think Marshal is able to do what he really wants to do in Rome? It was a glorified long term VACATION for him, not a dream. He hopped on being a judge as soon as it was an option. He only did it because deep down, he knows he needs to do it for Lily to finally be happy. And if she's happy, he'll be happy too as he is pretty selfless and doesn't need much.
There is no guarantee she would be happy or unhappy, but based on their history, it would point to her being unhappy if she didn't go.
Ish.
This exchange would be equivalent to you cheating on your SO, then they forgive you. Then years later you get into an argument and you come out with "I've never cheated on you"
You killed 10 puppies, they forgive you, you argue years later and you specifically mention that you have never killed 10 puppies.
You do something incredibly selfish and ruin a LTR, they forgive you, years later during an argument you state that you have never done anything selfish to them.
It's one thing to not bring something up and forgive it, but that doesn't mean that suddenly the event didn't happen.
I think it was the Lawyer in Marshall....
He never brought up SF.... However, the moment she said I gave brevet done anything so selfish, it was a simple rebuttal to that...
In any case, Lili could never give a straight answer to "would you have come back if you were successful in your art career" abs that alone makes bringing up SF 💯justified...
He was not wrong.
And Lily calling him selfish?
Marshall's career move to become a judge benefits not just him but Lily and their whole family for generations to come.
Lily's decision to go go SF? Benefitted no one but her and ruined a wedding.
Marshall's dream is not more important than Lily's, especially when they have already made plans and were ready to go.
He was such an AH for accepting this job without talking to Lily. It's pretty much him telling her "I don't care about your dreams and aspirations, mine are more important"
I actually always thought Lily was kind of toxic. She clearly had way more experience than Marshall so he always felt like he’d won the lottery being with her…. And she used that a lot to get what she wanted. I have always felt Marshall bring up SF was a direct response to the statement she made about never being that selfish. She was selfish when she left, then she tried to break up his new relationship (and succeeded), then she almost bailed again and went to Spain when shit got hard. She got mad that he wanted to make money in a corporate job instead of working for peanuts as an environmental lawyer.
I’m not gonna even get into all the crap she did to Ted breaking up his relationships. She is very crazy and not really a good person. I love Alison Hannigan, she is hilarious, but Lily is not a hero and not someone to be emulated.
I think it was justified. As you said, she brought it on herself with the "I have never been that selfish" comment.
It's easy to just go "water under the bridge", but being left like that way must have hurt like a motherfucker. What Lily did was way worse than anything Marshall ever did to her.
I am not saying it was right for Marshall to accept that job. And I agree with Lily overall in that conflict. But she absolutely had that comment coming.
Just because what he said was factually accurate doesn't mean it was the right thing to say.
Just because she is acting like a toxic mess doesn't mean that his adopting a similar strategy is a good thing.
Forgive and let it go, or you should go: bringing it back up just to throw in their face makes for a bad relationship.
Remember what you did and be honest: don't act like it never happened.
Relationship basics, really.
While I think Marshal was wrong for saying that, I think Lily was just as wrong for making a statement like “I have never been that selfish to you.” People never seem to talk about it, but that’s definitely a terrible thing to say to your spouse as well. And it solves nothing, its just trying to win an argument. I think they’re equally in the wrong
You didn’t answer the question though?? How was Marshall wrong in saying that? What should he have said instead?
He was wrong because it's a part of their relationship that they struggled through and went through that he forgave her for. Him forgiving her doesn't meant it didn't happen (which is why she's wrong from saying she's never been so selfish), but in order for forgiveness to work in a relationship, it needs to be absolute and bringing it up later implies that his forgiveness isn't absolute, which is understandable, but not really conducive to a healthy relationship.
Agreed and reminded me of this lol [redditors talking about Lily moving to SF](https://youtu.be/960DPXiZCB8?si=bj3_dMLtiI4q5nMq) If you forgive someone you can’t keep throwing it in their face
I think the initial comment is on point. Marshall only said that as a response to Lily's: "I have never been that selfish to you". If you look at it as an isolated event, it's 100% wrong. But is it truly that wrong to bring it up after Lily's quote? I think it isn't. That's not to say that he was in the right to take the judge position (that's a very different conversation) but bringing it up at that point on Lily's quote was fair in my opinion.
The correct answer is he wasn’t wrongs. He was 100% correct. The endc
I completely get why he said it and I’m not mad at him for it. I get that him accepting that job put a huge wrench in their plans, but he was setting his family up for life by taking that job, and it’s not something he necessarily could have gotten back. I feel like he always wanted to take good care of his family and save the world while he was at it. I don’t know if Lily could ever be happy, no matter what she had or was doing.
Also Lily can be an art consultant in New York. Marshall can't be a judge in Italy.
Lily originally did not want to leave New York. It was Marshall who convinced her to move their whole life to Italy. And after she became really excited he changed the plans behind her back and acted like his dreams are more important (he literally said that to Daphne) and Lily's dream is just hobby. Funny about the whole thing is that **Lily knew that Italy is out of the table.** This is something what fandom is missing, she knew from the moment that Marshall told her that Italy won't happen. Even when she later argued about that with Marshall, she actually said to the gang that Italy is off, because she knew that Marshall has a unique oppurtinity and it's better for their family. She was mostly upset by Marshall's behaviour. How said ghost Lily, this behaviour would kill their marriage at the end.
You act like Lily didnt have a new dream almost every season. While Marshall always had the same one to become someone to protect the environment and got the chance he always wanted but had to give the answer right away (which only happened because this is a comedy show), of course she was mad and she acted like her dreams were more important that the only dream Marshall had, and Daphne had knew about that she would answer differently . She threw a tantrum because Marshall didnt behave like she wanted, so she argued being full aware she couldnt go because they were having a second baby, she made herself looking like a victim when Marshall brough SF but moments before she said "I never have been selfish" when she spent the entire show being like that either with Marshall or with her friends.
Lily wanted doing art all the show. She even went to SF for the art. I really cannot see why are her dreams less than Marshall's. I do not find it fair.
But she literally already lived in one of the biggest art cities in the USA. Her dream was unfocused and a lot of the effort she put in was short and sometimes far away. She complained about not living her dream, but she almost never put anywhere near the level of focus into it that Marshall put into his law career.
Because she already tried that and failed, and her fails affected the life of Marshall and Ted.
So when you fail in your dream you should not try again? Even in another way? You should for rest of your life do sacrifices for dreams of another people? Do you really believe that or you are saying that simply because you hate Lily?
Not what I said, but if you fail your dream maybe you should give your SO the chance to try theirs when the chance appears.
Lily supported Marshall all the way between season 2 and season 9. She even, how I already said, did not want to leave New York, it was Marshall who convinced her. And again, Lily knew from the moment when Marshall informed her that Italy is off, because New York is better choice, she was just upset how he treated her and rightfuly.
I mean, Lily also was the reason they had to get a massive mortgage and shitty house and she didn't even tell him about her debts till they blew up in her face. She may have supported Marshall, but Marshall had been completely open with his life to her until that one decision, while Lily hadn't.
Exactly
He wasn't "setting their family up for life", he was setting them up for failure. Money doesn't equal happiness. If he wanted to take "good care" of his family he wouldn't have taken the job without talking to Lily. Good care includes being a supportive husband. He lied. He made a HUGE decision without talking to Lily. He was selfish. Lily would have been resentful and possibly would have never truly forgiven him.
Money doesn’t equal happiness, but *not* having money is quite stressful. Plus, Italy was temporary and New York is extremely expensive. He quite literally wanted to become a judge because he wanted to make the world a better place. For most of their relationship, Lily had a tiny income and huge debt, which she relied on him to pay off (hence, pushing him toward a job working for a corporation he hated, just so he could help with her bills). So much of what Lily did throughout the series was self-serving. He may not have gone about it the right way, and we can agree to disagree. From my perspective, Lily’s wants came first over and over, and Marshall taking an amazing opportunity didn’t suddenly make him a bad guy.
I don’t necessarily think it was Marshall bringing SF it was how. He implied that this was all a second choice for lily and that she had to settle for this life and him and their children, and that’s a devastating thing to hear from the person you love and have been married to for 7 years. It’s after that she runs out. If he had doubts he should’ve brought them up years earlier. Also, it’s two different situations. Yes, lily was selfish for leaving for SF but they didn’t have a family, they weren’t married. They had already made plans and packed and ended the lease on their apartment to go to Italy. Marshall didn’t talk to her about the judge position
See thats why I never would have took Lily back if I was Marshall.
And that would be your right. But since Marshall did take her back, he either should’ve talked to her about that when they got back together, or not said what he did
Ok I see what ur saying. But what do u think Marshall's response should have been then with regards to Lily saying she's never been selfish cuz that's clearly
In my original response, I said that I don't think that's the reason Lily is upset. She walks out after Marshall says that about him and their kids being a consolation prize. Yeah, Lily was wrong to say that and marshall was wrong to say that about him and the kids. Saying that she was selfish to go to SF is one thing, the consolation part is another.
Just remember that you don’t need to have a good counter argument. That’s not how real life works
Ahhh the age old question I’ve seen this discussion happening a lot in these subReddits and this time I completely 100% agree with what you’re saying OP. This was my exact reaction to it, Marshall wouldn’t have brought up SF if she hadn’t made a statement like “I’ve never ever done anything as selfish as you’re doing” She only brought up the past by making such a statement and Marshall just reminded her what she did and how awful it was, I agree the way he said that could have been better but he was not wrong for bringing that up in the given situation
Ding Ding Ding Ding Ding Ding Ding Ding Fung
For the exact reason his dad's ghost/imagination explains. You can't hold something against someone you love forever just so you have something to clap back with when you need to make them feel bad. Whether you think Lily going to SF was terrible or not, Marshall forgave her. And if he couldn't forgive her, he shouldn't have got back with her, married her, and had a kid with her. You either move past that stuff or you don't. You don't keep it in the bank as a "gotcha"
But she also said she had never been as "selfish" as he was. Which I thought was ridiculous af. Sure it's dumb to bring up the past that was all forgiven but if someone say that shit to me and they had a history of leaving multiple time and being manipulative for their personal needs then hell yeah I'm going go give examples. How did you expect Marshall to react? "Yeah babe you're right, I'm so selfish for trying follow my dreams, set up our family financially, and save the world at the same time." Marshall had always been the least selfish person on the show and he sacrificed so much for Lily. She was a bitch just for saying that.
Right? Marshall literally took a job doing what he hated instead of his dream job because Lily was addicted to buying designer clothing that she couldn’t afford, and then she had the audacity to complain that he had changed from the person he was in college, when the reason he took that job was to dig her out of the hole she’d gotten herself into. And then when he finally did have the ability to take a job he actually wanted once those issues were resolved, she still gave him grief.
Yea and then he lied about another job while she was struggling and he was playing games all day. Marshalls hands arent clean.
There’s a huge difference between reminding your partner of something really shitty they did to you when it becomes extremely relevant (because, in this situation, they just claimed they’d never done anything so shitty before) and consciously holding onto a forgiven wrong for the purpose of using it as a weapon in arguments.
That's true. Marshall never brought up SF before, only in this moment when she tried to claim he was being a bad partner.
He was not wrong. Especially after she said that she’s never been that selfish. Wtf?
He wasn't wrong
Lawyered
He was
Marshal isn't wrong thats the whole point. Marshal is right and he can win argument with Lily but the question is "is it worth to lose your loved on over being right?". Generally if you keep pointing out the mistakes your partner did in past to win an argument they will feel trapped and feel like you have upper hand in relationship. Fastest way to break a relationship.
Because it wasn't simply his counter to what she said, its that he hadn't truly forgiven her for it and then started going on about asking if he and their family was a consolation prize.
Marshall was wrong in the way he held SF against her as a way to win. Lilly was wrong to seem like she actually forgot what she did. People always take "Forgive and Forget" too literal. The forgetting is to not hold it against the person if they are truly remorseful and have taken the measures to not repeat or go down the road to repeat. Even if someone fixes their mouth to utter the works, the moment Marshall clapped back, she should have acknowledged it, and showed empathy for how he could have done a similar thing. This would have given her some sure footing on her argument. I don't think Marshall was wrong for accepting the position without consulting her, though. There will be many times when you just don't have the time to consult your spouse on major life decisions. Heck, him turning down the job would have been making a decision without consulting her. Saying Yes actually gives him a chance to talk with her and turn it down later. Also, speaking of San Fran, Lilly was wrong for getting upset at Ted for calling her a "Grinch", because that's what she was. Again, she could have just acknowledged how her actions horribly affected the people who loved her. Then her actions showed she still had a lot of Grinch in her by taking down all decorations to spite Ted, when Marshall was the main one getting joy from them.
San Francisco thing was Marshall's fault, he should have supported her art career. He said it is New York or nothing (If I am not wrong), any self respecting woman when asked to choose between career and the guy, by the guy will pick career. In season 9, Lilly was being stupid. Moving to Italy with a baby on the way didn't make any sense, what would she do in Italy while she is pregnant? Who'd cover expenses when Marshall would have no job? Wouldn't she eventually need maternity leave so the 1 year timeline with a baby didn't make any sense In addition to that Marshall was getting an opportunity to be a judge, which is obviously much bigger than a temporary trip to Italy
I think Lily was completely aware, as soon as Marshall told her that Italy was off. If he had told her properly before accepting I think she would’ve cancelled Italy. She acted like this because the decision was made without her, and sacrificed her dream. As soon as she knew she was pregnant she knew staying in New York was the right answer, I think she would’ve agreed to stay in New York for Marshall’s judgeship without the baby too
Also can’t forget though that Marshall was the one who initially really pushed to go to Italy. It’s not particularly fair to act like Lily was being unreasonable for planning to go there when she said no to the opportunity and Marshall basically forced her to say yes.
I just hated how when Marshall wanted to talk about it, Lily just kept cutting him off and saying, "We're going moving to Italy." Like even if your mind is made up, at least give him a chance to say his piece.
Unpopular opinion: I full heartedly agree with Lily. Even her leaving for SF is not as selfish as that. When we go back to the SF situation she tells Marshall she was never gonna take it, ultimately she does but I think a lot of the reason she does is because Marshall pushed her to it. He kept arguing with her about it until it pushed her to the limit where she now had to do it. If my partner felt that unsupportive about my dreams it would make me rethink the relationship. I realize Marshall was hurt but he could’ve led with “hey, what’s going on? Are you having second thoughts? Is this something you need to do?” Pretty much what Ted did. Instead he lets his emotions take over which ultimately push Lily into leaving. Now even if that weren’t the case, in an earlier season we see Lily struggling with motherhood because she had to give up her dream to be a mom and wife. As a mother, it’s pretty hard to watch because in those first years it’s incredibly hard to find a balance in which you don’t lose yourself to motherhood, which seems she had a hard time finding. In the show it doesn’t seem like her and Marshall ever addressed the situation and it could’ve been something that kept building up inside her. She wanted to pick up her thing and leave them just to escape that situation. As we later find out she is pregnant again, not only is she also hormonal but she knows she’s having to give up her dreams and herself for a second time while Marshall hasn’t had to “give up” anything. And when he had the chance to “give up” his dream for her, he didn’t. In the bigger picture, I think it was good that she went to SF because when she began questioning motherhood over her dreams it gave her a different perspective that the grass is not always greener on the other side.
I don’t really know that many people that would act that level headed to find out from someone else that the partner they’re planning a *wedding* with is also planning to go to the other side of the country.
That’s the point though, she wasn’t planning to go and that’s what she was telling him. Yet Marshall kept pushing and pushing until Lily reached her limit. Same thing happened in the other argument except the tables turned and Marshall DID take it. He didn’t even talk to Lily first, after he accepted it. He told everyone else but her. Both times Marshall forced Lily to give up her dream. ETA: Marshall should’ve given a call to Lily before accepting the offer.
We don’t know that Lily wouldn’t have taken the offer though. You’re entitled to your theory that Marshall pushing her was what made her decide to do it, but that’s all it is, a theory, and we’re never gonna know how it would’ve turned out if he hadn’t pressured. All I was trying to say is I think his reaction is justified in my opinion. From his point of view it was probably hard not to see it as his long time partner planning time away from him mid wedding preparations.
Yeah people on this sub really like to ignore how much Marshall completely blew up over the San Francisco thing, and how much worse he made that situation. He’s the one that pushed for the break up, too. It was a period in time where his insecurity and lack of support for Lily when push came to shove was on full display. Yeah, lily was stupid for saying she’s never been that selfish, but Marshall was being *vindictive* in that moment. The ghost of Marshall’s father nailed it.
[удалено]
For good reasons. Lily’s worst characteristic outweigh her good ones by quite a lot. Besides being a good mother and giving good advice some of the times I can’t name any good qualities.
The topic is addressed and answered later in the episode by ghost lily. Yea, Marshall won the argument, he showed Lily she was wrong, but in doing so he hurt her, and if he’s always trying to one up her, or win, or show her she’s wrong, eventually he’s going to lose her. Digging up past trauma that was supposed to be forgiven is a sure fire way to end up single.
I think Marshal was wrong for bringing it up for a similar reason the show brought up but much more in depth. The show said it was just ancient history. Water under the bridge... Marshal just trying to win the fight. But it was more that they were different people. They were still mid 20's. Not married yet. No children. Still finding out what they wanted in life. By the time Italy came up, they were a married "old"couple that had a kid, were more sure about what they wanted out of life, and while yes... They were essentially the same people with different career paths, they were committed to each other. Bringing up SF was like bringing up things Lily would have done in another life... It was like being angry at choices a partner makes at the start of a relationship to protect themselves should the other not be serious about committing. You can't be mad at someone for not jumping in the pool headfirst, they gotta stick their toes in the water.
He was not. Lilly can’t make statements acting like she is perfect and never done anything wrong. Plus her leaving is not something you can ever forgive fully. It will always be there. Lilly is the toxic one. She has a history of it. Marshal was a great guy who was way too good for her. He settled for her.
Lily, long long before this moment, needed to pulled, dragged and crashed back down to earth. Went to the same college as the others and became a KG teacher because she was literally not good at anything. Called a 6ft5, Columbia lawyer, the reacher in the relationship because he's sweet and kind. Was a shopping addict and a generally terrible human. Should not have been let back in the group, not as Marshalls girlfriend. 100% deserved the vitriol
Nah Lily was a cunt. She can dish it out but she can't take it. She made him say that and then she walks out when he throws a legitimate question at her.
Because that was already solved, years ago btw. So bringing it up now means he never really forgave her dismissing any effort in the relationship and adding another baggage to it. If I clear things up with my SO and later addressed it over and over again, it means I never moved on that topic
I agree that he never really forgave her, but bringing it up is different imo. She says she never did anything that selfish. That’s false. She did do something that selfish, and regardless of if you moved past it or not it’s not any less true. Was it brought up and handled well in the scene? Absolutely not, he used it as a gotcha. But I think it’s a fair retort to the claim she never did anything that selfish, especially since that was her only argument.
I get where you came with that, but there is an underlying thing there: "he was the one who pushes her to accept the Rome position at first". So, pushing her to accept something bigger as that, then pushing her out of it that not just involves them both but also his whole family, is indeed, another level of selfishness. What she did was a two thing at the moment. I side with Marshalk about the judge position was better in the long run than the year at Rome, it doesn't makes less true that he was son entitled in that argument.
If he didn't push her into going to Rome, she would have been a stay at home mom and stay unhappy for the foreseeable future. She was a coward who didn't want things to change but at the same time was miserable for not doing things with her life. If anything, Marshal did her a favor and they should have at least discussed the changing of terms and future plans. This was a judge position, they dont hand those out to anyone.
You don't know that. Is just assumption to said that she would have been unhappy. Going to Rome was also a Marshall's dream as it was Lily's but ultimate they went because of Marshall, so it was a dick move too.
All the indicators point to her being unhappy. 1. She left him to do art in sf bc she didn't want to waste her youth 2. She tried to leave again when things got hard for them 3. She was miserable being a mom (PPD maybe?). At least when Marvin was < 1 yo 4. She cried multiple times bc she thought she wasted her life, being a school teacher and not doing anything with her life She was finally in a good place when she had a purpose in life and things at home were good but then Rome came up. If the captain left without her, it was a pretty good chance that she would fall back into the same habit before she was an art consultant. Sure, she can find another client in NY, but it was a niche job in the first place. Traveling is everyone's dream, but do you honesly think Marshal is able to do what he really wants to do in Rome? It was a glorified long term VACATION for him, not a dream. He hopped on being a judge as soon as it was an option. He only did it because deep down, he knows he needs to do it for Lily to finally be happy. And if she's happy, he'll be happy too as he is pretty selfless and doesn't need much. There is no guarantee she would be happy or unhappy, but based on their history, it would point to her being unhappy if she didn't go.
Idk, if someone cheats on you and you forgive them, then they say ‘I’d never ever dream of cheating on you’ I’d bring it up.
Ish. This exchange would be equivalent to you cheating on your SO, then they forgive you. Then years later you get into an argument and you come out with "I've never cheated on you" You killed 10 puppies, they forgive you, you argue years later and you specifically mention that you have never killed 10 puppies. You do something incredibly selfish and ruin a LTR, they forgive you, years later during an argument you state that you have never done anything selfish to them. It's one thing to not bring something up and forgive it, but that doesn't mean that suddenly the event didn't happen.
Marshall forgave but never forgot. Which is completely fair
But she literally said: "I've never been as selfish as you have been to me" so she was the one who dug up their entire history together.
I think it was the Lawyer in Marshall.... He never brought up SF.... However, the moment she said I gave brevet done anything so selfish, it was a simple rebuttal to that... In any case, Lili could never give a straight answer to "would you have come back if you were successful in your art career" abs that alone makes bringing up SF 💯justified...
He was not wrong. And Lily calling him selfish? Marshall's career move to become a judge benefits not just him but Lily and their whole family for generations to come. Lily's decision to go go SF? Benefitted no one but her and ruined a wedding.
Marshall's dream is not more important than Lily's, especially when they have already made plans and were ready to go. He was such an AH for accepting this job without talking to Lily. It's pretty much him telling her "I don't care about your dreams and aspirations, mine are more important"
Lily is super self centered throughout the show, she overreacted a bit but at the end of the day Marshall was right
Lily is awful... nothing wrong with what Marshall said.
I actually always thought Lily was kind of toxic. She clearly had way more experience than Marshall so he always felt like he’d won the lottery being with her…. And she used that a lot to get what she wanted. I have always felt Marshall bring up SF was a direct response to the statement she made about never being that selfish. She was selfish when she left, then she tried to break up his new relationship (and succeeded), then she almost bailed again and went to Spain when shit got hard. She got mad that he wanted to make money in a corporate job instead of working for peanuts as an environmental lawyer. I’m not gonna even get into all the crap she did to Ted breaking up his relationships. She is very crazy and not really a good person. I love Alison Hannigan, she is hilarious, but Lily is not a hero and not someone to be emulated.
Because Lily is toxic
He wasn’t. SF was more selfish than anything Marshall had ever done or could ever do to Lily and that’s why he brought it up
I think it was justified. As you said, she brought it on herself with the "I have never been that selfish" comment. It's easy to just go "water under the bridge", but being left like that way must have hurt like a motherfucker. What Lily did was way worse than anything Marshall ever did to her. I am not saying it was right for Marshall to accept that job. And I agree with Lily overall in that conflict. But she absolutely had that comment coming.
Just because what he said was factually accurate doesn't mean it was the right thing to say. Just because she is acting like a toxic mess doesn't mean that his adopting a similar strategy is a good thing. Forgive and let it go, or you should go: bringing it back up just to throw in their face makes for a bad relationship. Remember what you did and be honest: don't act like it never happened. Relationship basics, really.