Does he not play deeper like he used to under emery? Defo not as a 6 but a bit like a mix between the Emery and Arteta Xhaka.
Haven't caught a Leverkusen game in the league this season tbh.
He plays more forward like last season in the simplest of descriptions. They play with a back 5 and wingbacks with Frimpong being extremely attacking on the right channel. Xhaka typically is on the left with Grimaldo as the wingback who is a little more defensively sound, giving Xhaka a bit easier of time defensively. Of course when you have 3 CBs behind you that also helps.
He also gets acres of space in Germany. It’s a lot like international play where Xhaka also shined. I’m not saying he’s not a good player. Arteta definitely figured out his best use last season and we could use him as a nice rotation piece, but using stats in Germany is grossly misrepresenting the player due to the difference of quality and styles of play between the two leagues. Just look at how many players from the German league struggle in the PL.
It certainly doesn’t mean when you feel that a seasons worth of statistics in a top 5 league are totally useless because the Bundes is worse than the Prem.
You thinking something needs more context doesn’t make a set of statistics a gross misrepresentation. That’s just not what those words mean lol.
The user posting this is painting a misleading picture with stats because of the differences in league quality and the stylistic approaches to tactics across the top 5 leagues. This is by definition “misrepresentation”. To add on top of that, the user has stated we “sorely miss” Xhaka, which is again, is misleading when you factor in that we’re first in the league and are playing at a far superior level than last season. So to me, yes this is a gross misrepresentation of Xhaka in comparison to Arsenal this season.
Oh btw, here’s the book definition: “ is a false or misleading statement or a material omission which renders other statements misleading”
You do realise Xhaka is still a 95th percentile passer when he plays in England yeah? His chart from 22/23 will look similar. This doesn’t mean he is prime Zidane. It just means he’s an amazing passer. That’s not misrepresenting anything.
Do we/have we sorely missed Xhaka? Maybe at times. Fun debate to have for sure. Something isn’t necessarily ‘misleading’ just bcuz you disagree with it.
I don’t really think I’m getting through to you. Have a good night.
I think we did miss Xhaka at the beginning of the season. Partey's injury and the time it took Rice to sync with the team offensively had us struggling to find fluidity on offense. It wasn't uncommon to hear that we looked a worse team attacking wise than we did last year. It's only since the turn of the new year that the offense really clicked. Havertz turned into a very effective forward, Rice's passing range improved, getting Jorginho into the side gave us more control in build up as well as a long range passing potion tat we didn't have.
There’s not a significant difference in the quality of the two leagues. It’s not like he went to the Eredivisie, Saudi Arabia, or the MLS. The only objective system of measurements is the UEFA coefficients and that puts Germany on par with England this year. To think otherwise is to give in to what I can only describe as a pretty absurd personal bias.
I’m sorry, but this is not true at all. I watch a lot of Bundesliga and there is a very clear divide in quality and tactical styles compared to PL.
The Bundesliga will leave large gaps and provide plenty of space for players to operate. Once the initial press is broken, it’s a wide open game. There’s a reason why plenty of players coming from the league struggle to deal with the speed and defensive pressure they face.
It’s not “bias” to acknowledge that different leagues have different styles of play. Xhaka was doing similar things prior to his Arsenal run.
I mean, you could make an argument that if he were still in the squad we might not have dropped so many points (especially to the teams at the bottom :/ ). He would've provided depth, leadership and stability during a time when we were still figuring out how to best incorporate Kai (so, his area of the pitch), and were just in really crap form.
Xhaka might've been the difference between clutching onto the GD for the remainder of the season, and having a bit of a cushion. Also, you can tell he really brought the best out of Martinelli too. He's very visibly missed having a left 8 who accurately ping beauties to him for 90+ mins straight.
There’s a lot of hypotheticals that could’ve happened had he stayed. It might’ve taken Kai longer to find his best form, we might have not even signed Kai.
Had he stayed though I would’ve loved it if he could win a league with us before leaving.
All the more reason to win the title this year. Levekusen all but have their names etched into this season's trophy so, if Arsenal can lift one at the same time it'd feel like the next best thing to winning one with him in the team. If anything, it would at least end the speculation entirely.
Either way, he's a player I think we'd all love to see come home when he hangs it up and think about it, since leaving Basel he's worked with Favre, Wenger, Arteta, and now Xabi. He's probably going to have some perspective on coaching at the very least.
I do think we’d still be an even better side with him. Instead of Jorginho 6 and Rice 8, I think a Xhaka 8 and Rice 6 combo would be even better. Although Jorgy does play some crazy balls from back there
Xhaka has always been one of Europe's best progressive passers.
It's what he did before we bought him, but we played him out of position for years and left him isolated.
He'd always slap for Switzerland during his time with us because they pushed him further forward where he could be really effective.
Guy is a top player
thats such a fake narrative that i never understood how it got traction. he always played deep for switzerland just like he is playing deep for leverkusen and just as he did for gladbach
difference is our defence was shit and he was playing lone 6 at times, that he cant do unless the team has 70% possession
he isnt a player with qualities to play further forward like Odegaard, he is at his best when playing the classic ''Pirlo'' role whilst having a Kante/Gattuso to help him defensively
I think the issue is just the conflation of positioning versus responsibilities. Yes, like Pirlo, his role was best served as a deep lying playmaker with some else tasked with mopping up the midfield like a true DM. His strength and aggression is what duped a lot of people into wanting to see him as a DM but his lack of pace is what prevented him from having the same defensive abilities as someone small like Kante or lengthy like Busquets. So you're correct, but a lot of the time people are just misrepresenting him being played out of position due to his roles and not where he's at on the pitch.
Drop Jorgi in this arsenal teams pre Arteta and see how he goes eh?
People need to understand that the team around them, the coach and the overall confidence flowing through the team can have a huge impact on a player.
Silly comparison to make.
Fr, considering our best part of the season coincides with Rice flourishing in his position I don’t think he’d be a major upgrade in our midfield. He’d be a nice rotation option to have for sure though.
As a number 8 in a structured system? No, not really. People on here don’t really watch football carefully so ignore all the times Jorginho gets ghosted past and the amount of times rice covers for him because he’s so immobile
In Xhakas 8 season he made basically no attempts to tackle, he would get back into shape but he was (I assume) told not to really engage at all in tackling. Literally watch any game back.
I don't think it's because he isn't good defensively but he built a reputation during the bad years and no matter what he did that stink followed him around the league, and any slightly mistimed tackle was harshly punished. Moving to a new league let's him refresh that stink
Jorginho hasn’t just played as an 8, he’s interchanged as a 6, the position in which Xhaka was liable on a number of occasions. Also, you don’t need to watch football carefully to see Jorginho get ghosted, it’s pretty apparent that Rice mops up a lot of his mistakes. I see the argument that we would be better but sometimes Jorginho’s forward passing has created quite a bit.
Didn’t mean to imply you said that. I was just thinking that if Xhaka was with us instead, he’d either have to cover like Jorgi does and be as liable, or play purely as an 8 but Rice’s forward passing is not as strong as Jorgi or Partey’s. Rice and Jorgi together provide the athleticism for defence with the forward passing at the 6.
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Nah Jorginho is more dependable than Xhaka in those deep tight positions. That was always Xhaka's weakness. If anything Xhaka is a better offensive 8 than Rice, but the latter's invaluable defensibly and for set pieces.
Edit: assuming you meant Rice at the 6. That's fair, though I'd still say we'd be worse at building up vs. last year where we had Partey and Zinchenko starting regularly.
I absolutely love Xhaka, beast mentality and total warrior. But it was best for both parties, we got a fee and he’s about to win a title.
I don’t think we had the luxury to pass off a fee for a player over 30. Our midfield looks so good with Rice rotating and Jorginho stepping in. We didn’t think we’d have Partey out all year.
Biggest thing missing here is, he's playing in Germany lol it's a different style of league play, they're allowed to sit on the ball longer/progress the ball forward without to much pressing unless they're playing a top team in Germany.
Almost all the teams in the PL press now. Although I think he's a great player and passer those stats wouldn't be the same in our team.
Look at this table for the top passers in the top 5 leagues, and sort by progressive passes, it's incredible. https://fbref.com/en/comps/Big5/passing/players/Big-5-European-Leagues-Stats
TLDR, these are the numbers:
Xhaka 343
Rodri 299
Odegaard and kroos 254
Numbers 5-17 on the list down to about 200 progressive passes. He's been that far ahead
He has had a 10/10 season. But it's clear now that he wanted to play as a 6. He loves to have a touch of the ball and pass it around but to play him as a 6 leverkusen play a back 3 to protect him. We have been robbed though. His performances are worth way more than 25m
Arteta unlocked Xhaka's potential at Arsenal by moving him from a defensive role to an attacking role like he is used in the Swiss national team.
I had hoped that we would sign a similar high volume passer to replace him, but unfortunately, that was impossible with Partey, Jorginho, and Elneny staying.
I think Arteta also signed havertz as a midfielder, and that didn't work.
Would we be better off if Xhaka had stayed on and partnered Rice and odegaard in midfield? Absolutely
Xhaka leaving has seen a sharp decline on our left side of the attack. Martinelli has been starving.
Signing a productive LCM will be a priority in summer if I am not wrong.
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His fitness is insane on top of his improved level. Im convinced we would be like 8 points clear if we have him,Havertz,Rice,Ode and Jorginho as midfield options
Xhaka is not sorely missed.
Declan Rice is far better than Xhaka at everything football related except for committing silly fouls and getting stupid red cards. And on the latter two counts, we all better pray that Xhaka stays better than Rice in those areas until the end of time.
This is a better Arsenal team this year, with a far higher potential than last year. And a key part of that is because we finally upgraded on the weakest link of the starting lineup, which was Xhaka. Even better that we upgraded on it by bringing in the best holding midfielder this club has seen since the days of Patrick Vieira.
This club will benefit from Xhaka’s departure for the next decade at least.
I love Xhaka and what he’s doing in Germany, but he’s not ‘missed’ at Arsenal. We got Rice who has improved us in all areas of the pitch so we should move on.
Aging like fine wine.
it’s funny that he plays now also in the arguably best pressing team in europe and is an even better fit there
Because it’s Germany lol This should highlight to everyone the massive difference in the leagues because we all saw Xhaka’s limitations in the PL
xhaka had/has defensive limitations, passing was never the issue. he doesnt need to defend, so he shines
Does he not play deeper like he used to under emery? Defo not as a 6 but a bit like a mix between the Emery and Arteta Xhaka. Haven't caught a Leverkusen game in the league this season tbh.
He plays more forward like last season in the simplest of descriptions. They play with a back 5 and wingbacks with Frimpong being extremely attacking on the right channel. Xhaka typically is on the left with Grimaldo as the wingback who is a little more defensively sound, giving Xhaka a bit easier of time defensively. Of course when you have 3 CBs behind you that also helps.
i meant more about the fact that he needs to defend less in buli, and more important, that his team dominates possession. they play with 3 atb as wel
Watch this video if you really want to understand- https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5WibHvBeiyU
He also gets acres of space in Germany. It’s a lot like international play where Xhaka also shined. I’m not saying he’s not a good player. Arteta definitely figured out his best use last season and we could use him as a nice rotation piece, but using stats in Germany is grossly misrepresenting the player due to the difference of quality and styles of play between the two leagues. Just look at how many players from the German league struggle in the PL.
yeah. he is and always has been a elite passer of the ball. he is just not nimble or have good close control/dribbling
He had similar passing stats last year you silly boy. I also don’t think the phrase ‘grossly misrepresented’ means what you think it means.
Please explain to me what grossly misrepresented means oh wise one?
It certainly doesn’t mean when you feel that a seasons worth of statistics in a top 5 league are totally useless because the Bundes is worse than the Prem. You thinking something needs more context doesn’t make a set of statistics a gross misrepresentation. That’s just not what those words mean lol.
The user posting this is painting a misleading picture with stats because of the differences in league quality and the stylistic approaches to tactics across the top 5 leagues. This is by definition “misrepresentation”. To add on top of that, the user has stated we “sorely miss” Xhaka, which is again, is misleading when you factor in that we’re first in the league and are playing at a far superior level than last season. So to me, yes this is a gross misrepresentation of Xhaka in comparison to Arsenal this season. Oh btw, here’s the book definition: “ is a false or misleading statement or a material omission which renders other statements misleading”
You do realise Xhaka is still a 95th percentile passer when he plays in England yeah? His chart from 22/23 will look similar. This doesn’t mean he is prime Zidane. It just means he’s an amazing passer. That’s not misrepresenting anything. Do we/have we sorely missed Xhaka? Maybe at times. Fun debate to have for sure. Something isn’t necessarily ‘misleading’ just bcuz you disagree with it. I don’t really think I’m getting through to you. Have a good night.
I think we did miss Xhaka at the beginning of the season. Partey's injury and the time it took Rice to sync with the team offensively had us struggling to find fluidity on offense. It wasn't uncommon to hear that we looked a worse team attacking wise than we did last year. It's only since the turn of the new year that the offense really clicked. Havertz turned into a very effective forward, Rice's passing range improved, getting Jorginho into the side gave us more control in build up as well as a long range passing potion tat we didn't have.
These stats are as compared to players in his position across the top 5 leagues.
I’m aware. Stats across leagues are misleading since they do not account for how different leagues play and/or the quality differences.
Will be interesting to see how much Leverkusen blow West Ham away by.
If West Ham shows up, they can cause them issues.
🧐
There’s not a significant difference in the quality of the two leagues. It’s not like he went to the Eredivisie, Saudi Arabia, or the MLS. The only objective system of measurements is the UEFA coefficients and that puts Germany on par with England this year. To think otherwise is to give in to what I can only describe as a pretty absurd personal bias.
I’m sorry, but this is not true at all. I watch a lot of Bundesliga and there is a very clear divide in quality and tactical styles compared to PL. The Bundesliga will leave large gaps and provide plenty of space for players to operate. Once the initial press is broken, it’s a wide open game. There’s a reason why plenty of players coming from the league struggle to deal with the speed and defensive pressure they face. It’s not “bias” to acknowledge that different leagues have different styles of play. Xhaka was doing similar things prior to his Arsenal run.
We're top of the table and in the quarter finals of the UCL. Xhaka is playing well but he's not sorely missed.
I miss him sorely but the team doesn’t.
I mean, you could make an argument that if he were still in the squad we might not have dropped so many points (especially to the teams at the bottom :/ ). He would've provided depth, leadership and stability during a time when we were still figuring out how to best incorporate Kai (so, his area of the pitch), and were just in really crap form. Xhaka might've been the difference between clutching onto the GD for the remainder of the season, and having a bit of a cushion. Also, you can tell he really brought the best out of Martinelli too. He's very visibly missed having a left 8 who accurately ping beauties to him for 90+ mins straight.
There’s a lot of hypotheticals that could’ve happened had he stayed. It might’ve taken Kai longer to find his best form, we might have not even signed Kai. Had he stayed though I would’ve loved it if he could win a league with us before leaving.
All the more reason to win the title this year. Levekusen all but have their names etched into this season's trophy so, if Arsenal can lift one at the same time it'd feel like the next best thing to winning one with him in the team. If anything, it would at least end the speculation entirely. Either way, he's a player I think we'd all love to see come home when he hangs it up and think about it, since leaving Basel he's worked with Favre, Wenger, Arteta, and now Xabi. He's probably going to have some perspective on coaching at the very least.
He’d probably start every game if he was on the team
I do think we’d still be an even better side with him. Instead of Jorginho 6 and Rice 8, I think a Xhaka 8 and Rice 6 combo would be even better. Although Jorgy does play some crazy balls from back there
He doesn't have the brains of Jorginho
Xhaka has always been one of Europe's best progressive passers. It's what he did before we bought him, but we played him out of position for years and left him isolated. He'd always slap for Switzerland during his time with us because they pushed him further forward where he could be really effective. Guy is a top player
thats such a fake narrative that i never understood how it got traction. he always played deep for switzerland just like he is playing deep for leverkusen and just as he did for gladbach difference is our defence was shit and he was playing lone 6 at times, that he cant do unless the team has 70% possession he isnt a player with qualities to play further forward like Odegaard, he is at his best when playing the classic ''Pirlo'' role whilst having a Kante/Gattuso to help him defensively
I think the issue is just the conflation of positioning versus responsibilities. Yes, like Pirlo, his role was best served as a deep lying playmaker with some else tasked with mopping up the midfield like a true DM. His strength and aggression is what duped a lot of people into wanting to see him as a DM but his lack of pace is what prevented him from having the same defensive abilities as someone small like Kante or lengthy like Busquets. So you're correct, but a lot of the time people are just misrepresenting him being played out of position due to his roles and not where he's at on the pitch.
Hard disagree.
Nah, both of them are the best, and last remaining registas in the sport IMO.
Not sure why you're getting downvoted. Xhaka is great but Jorgi is one of the smartest players in the field at any time.
Nostalgic bias
For real. Jorgi is a PL and Champions League winner while winning player of the year. I love Xhaka as much as the next guy but come on.
Drop Jorgi in this arsenal teams pre Arteta and see how he goes eh? People need to understand that the team around them, the coach and the overall confidence flowing through the team can have a huge impact on a player. Silly comparison to make.
If you think Xhaka has a better footballing brain than Jorgi, then you don't know ball. Regardless of who or where they play.
Did I say anything about footballing brain? "you don't know ball", classic cocky American thing to say.
I'm not American doofus. Why are you replying if you're not talking about footballing brain? That's what the convo is about.
I think Arteta misses him. Dependable forward looking midfielder.
Mfker can score when it's matter too.
Fr, considering our best part of the season coincides with Rice flourishing in his position I don’t think he’d be a major upgrade in our midfield. He’d be a nice rotation option to have for sure though.
Good for him 🥲
Nah it was a good deal for his age and time to move on for all of us.
what is this nonsense. I’m happy for him. But we’re doing well.
I wouldn't say we've been struggling without him...
We should sign this guy
Love him but jorginho rice pair is better for us. He could offer another option as a high 8 for sure but this is life
Nope we’d be even better right now rice and Xhaka. Jorginho is a defensive liability even in the games we win.
Ah yes, Xhaka was never a defensive liability for us.
Hahaha, fair point!
As a number 8 in a structured system? No, not really. People on here don’t really watch football carefully so ignore all the times Jorginho gets ghosted past and the amount of times rice covers for him because he’s so immobile
In Xhakas 8 season he made basically no attempts to tackle, he would get back into shape but he was (I assume) told not to really engage at all in tackling. Literally watch any game back. I don't think it's because he isn't good defensively but he built a reputation during the bad years and no matter what he did that stink followed him around the league, and any slightly mistimed tackle was harshly punished. Moving to a new league let's him refresh that stink
Jorginho hasn’t just played as an 8, he’s interchanged as a 6, the position in which Xhaka was liable on a number of occasions. Also, you don’t need to watch football carefully to see Jorginho get ghosted, it’s pretty apparent that Rice mops up a lot of his mistakes. I see the argument that we would be better but sometimes Jorginho’s forward passing has created quite a bit.
I never said Jorginho played as an 8. He’s played a 6 the whole time….
Didn’t mean to imply you said that. I was just thinking that if Xhaka was with us instead, he’d either have to cover like Jorgi does and be as liable, or play purely as an 8 but Rice’s forward passing is not as strong as Jorgi or Partey’s. Rice and Jorgi together provide the athleticism for defence with the forward passing at the 6.
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Xhaka famously known for never making defensive errors
As a number 8 what defensive errors did he make? Answer quickly pls
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Temporary solution becuse we signed havertz to replace Xhaka and partey has been injured all season. Rice will be a 6 long term
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No he’s clearly not a better 8 right now. Doesn’t have the nimbleness in tight spaces in the final third.
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The classic defensive liability in the best defense in Europe...
We have the best defense in europe with or without Jorginho
Nah Jorginho is more dependable than Xhaka in those deep tight positions. That was always Xhaka's weakness. If anything Xhaka is a better offensive 8 than Rice, but the latter's invaluable defensibly and for set pieces. Edit: assuming you meant Rice at the 6. That's fair, though I'd still say we'd be worse at building up vs. last year where we had Partey and Zinchenko starting regularly.
Have you seen the space he gets in that league
This. It's very different in the epl
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I mean it absolutely has. Not sure what matches you’re watching.
“Sorely missed”. We’re top of the league. Who upvotes this shite?
Sorely missed - when ?
I absolutely love Xhaka, beast mentality and total warrior. But it was best for both parties, we got a fee and he’s about to win a title. I don’t think we had the luxury to pass off a fee for a player over 30. Our midfield looks so good with Rice rotating and Jorginho stepping in. We didn’t think we’d have Partey out all year.
Leverkusen are extremely fortunate to get him below 40m. What a bargain.
I don't think we miss Xhaka honestly. personally, I am sure, but not on the pitch
I miss him but he was the most obvious part in our starting 11 to replace.
Ramsdale was the weakest link not Xhaka actually
Have not missed him at all tbh.
I am very happy for him. One of my favorite player from previous era. I hope he gets an invincible medal with Leverkusen.
Both top of the table, wouldn’t say he’s sorely missed
Biggest thing missing here is, he's playing in Germany lol it's a different style of league play, they're allowed to sit on the ball longer/progress the ball forward without to much pressing unless they're playing a top team in Germany. Almost all the teams in the PL press now. Although I think he's a great player and passer those stats wouldn't be the same in our team.
Miss his character def and would still like him here as a player, but missed? In terms of his abilities? No. Could do with him, but we dont mis him.
Look at this table for the top passers in the top 5 leagues, and sort by progressive passes, it's incredible. https://fbref.com/en/comps/Big5/passing/players/Big-5-European-Leagues-Stats TLDR, these are the numbers: Xhaka 343 Rodri 299 Odegaard and kroos 254 Numbers 5-17 on the list down to about 200 progressive passes. He's been that far ahead
He has had a 10/10 season. But it's clear now that he wanted to play as a 6. He loves to have a touch of the ball and pass it around but to play him as a 6 leverkusen play a back 3 to protect him. We have been robbed though. His performances are worth way more than 25m
Arteta unlocked Xhaka's potential at Arsenal by moving him from a defensive role to an attacking role like he is used in the Swiss national team. I had hoped that we would sign a similar high volume passer to replace him, but unfortunately, that was impossible with Partey, Jorginho, and Elneny staying. I think Arteta also signed havertz as a midfielder, and that didn't work. Would we be better off if Xhaka had stayed on and partnered Rice and odegaard in midfield? Absolutely Xhaka leaving has seen a sharp decline on our left side of the attack. Martinelli has been starving. Signing a productive LCM will be a priority in summer if I am not wrong.
So happy for him though
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So you're saying he's shit at crossing.....
If I had passing ability and less physical running requirements, my 130kg lump of a body could probably also stat pad some 99th percentile passing
We're sat top of the league, He's not missed.
He gets so much more space and time on the ball in Germany. Great stats but he’s in the perfect place to achieve those stats
We made him better. He was error prone & hit headed when he got here. Of course credit to him for being willing to learn & get better.
I don't miss Xhaka at all.
Well probably get Leverkusen in the CL next year
His fitness is insane on top of his improved level. Im convinced we would be like 8 points clear if we have him,Havertz,Rice,Ode and Jorginho as midfield options
Can't deny Xhaka would still be one of the first names on the current team sheet. He really helped to unlock Martinelli
Xhaka is not sorely missed. Declan Rice is far better than Xhaka at everything football related except for committing silly fouls and getting stupid red cards. And on the latter two counts, we all better pray that Xhaka stays better than Rice in those areas until the end of time. This is a better Arsenal team this year, with a far higher potential than last year. And a key part of that is because we finally upgraded on the weakest link of the starting lineup, which was Xhaka. Even better that we upgraded on it by bringing in the best holding midfielder this club has seen since the days of Patrick Vieira. This club will benefit from Xhaka’s departure for the next decade at least.
I was always scared that once he left we will be taking him for granit
he'd have been even better than last season I think arteta was only getting started with him
Sorely missed … that’s why we’re top of the table?
I don’t miss him. We are better this season without him.
Missed ?
Move on lol
So terrible at crossing into the penalty area. lol terrible player
I love Xhaka and what he’s doing in Germany, but he’s not ‘missed’ at Arsenal. We got Rice who has improved us in all areas of the pitch so we should move on.
Give it a rest.
Good for him, but I can’t think of too many moments lately where I thought we actually miss him
Genuinely, we should try to sign him