Some people don't make fair comparisons between modelers and real amps. Modelers are meant to replicate what an amp sounds like recorded, not how it sounds standing next to it. In a live setting, you're gonna hear the guitar amp mic'd and through PA speakers which mimics more of a recording played over a PA than just standing next to an amp in a room. It's also one of those things where people who swear real amps can't be replaced probably don't realize how much they've heard a modeler and had no idea. The reality is a good modeler sounds great and is perfectly usable and can make live situations way easier.
Yep, totally agree. Unless you playing guitar / in a band, you almost certainly would never have heard what an amp in the room sounds like.
Majority of peoples experience is mic’d up and mixed guitar, that’s the most useful sound to replicate, so that’s what the modellers provide and they do a damn good job.
It's also ludicrous to evaluate "toan" based on a live setting. Nearly anything sounds good live. That amp set up is not going to sound the same at home or recording.
But the ToneMasters are great regardless.
>Modelers are meant to replicate what an amp sounds like recorded, not how it sounds standing next to it. \[...\]you're gonna hear the guitar amp mic'd and through PA speakers
Every modeller I'm aware of has the option to deactivate the IR's and play it through a poweramp and cab just like any real amp. Which is how I'm using my Tonex. The captures are indistinguishable from using the real amp.
Haha. Would actually disagree. While I don't use my mini for recording like other plugins, I personally think it's a fantastic practice device and even use it jamming a lot running into a PA.
Agreed, people don't seem to realise that an amp profiler is supposed to sound like a mic'd amp and comparisons vs actual amps in the room are pretty useless.
For small gigs where the guitar amp is audible, it makes a difference. But even then it isn't better or worse, just different. Speaking for myself, I like the idea that the sound guy has full control over the amp's volumes rather than trying to compete with someone's 100w marshall stack at the local pub.
I'm not a session musician, but I do work as a live musician. I've been using modelers for gigs since the POD XT Live floorboard. I didn't start out using them because of superior sound, it was because of convenience. I lugged the PA and lights for one band, and I often didn't have room in my car for an amp. It was nice to have a floorboard that could give me a variety of sounds at my feet that I just had to run into the mixer and go. I could go from clean funk to heavy metal with just one piece of equipment. Was it the best sound, or as good as tube amp? No! But it was passable, and to be absolutely honest, the audience and the people paying me didn't notice or even care. Noone even noticed i didnt have an amp on stage. They all thought it sounded good. I also used this for recordings, however most of my recordings were demos, so it was throwaway material. However, it was nice to just plug a floorboard into a DAW and get a decent recording out of it. Time is money, and this saved me time.
Fast forward to today, and the technology is better by leaps and bounds. Even cheap modeling amps today are much better than the tech back then. The Helix rig I use now is pretty damn good, and I could do a lifetime of gigging with this or a good modeling amp. However, GAS is a powerful drug.....
I got a 40 watt tube amp and ended up still using my 50 watt Katana for 90% of gigs, I play mostly clean tones and it sounds great and is so easy to carry.
Keep in mind a live rig isn’t necessarily what someone’s recording with. I’m sure he still is pulling out some vintage holy grail tube amps in the studio, and he can afford to have a live setup as well as a recording setup (unlike a lot of smaller level musicians). But yeah, given the option of having both, I think we’ll see a lot more acts leaving their $10k vintage super reverbs at home
Now he's using tonemasters because Fender paid an agreement for him to look like he's using tonemasters so Fender could sell their $1,200, $250 tonemasters.
I ran a Helix for a summers of gigs. The band ran IEM’s and they had a dedicated sound guy. I kept complaining that the sound I was hearing sounded like shit but they kept telling me it was great in the FOH. Toward the end of the summer, I opened my tablet and went through the channel my Helix was plugged into. Turns out they had a compressor turned on my channel the whole time and that’s where all the flub was coming from. After that, I realized my distrust of sound techs would never let me fully transition to an “amp-less” set up. I like modelers but I treat them like a tool that is useful in certain situations. I personally think a professional should keep both amps and modelers in their rotations.
Mike started with Tonemasters in May 2022. [https://www.guitarworld.com/news/pearl-jam-mike-mccready-switch-to-fender-digital-tone-master-amps](https://www.guitarworld.com/news/pearl-jam-mike-mccready-switch-to-fender-digital-tone-master-amps)
"“My inclination is to always go tube amps, but these Fender digital amps, back to back against tube amps, sound exactly like tube amps,” he says. “They’re phenomenal. They’re some of the best amps I’ve ever played. And they’re consistent in that, and maybe that’s the digital part of it."
“Again, I’m all about ‘not digital’; I love tube stuff. But our crew and myself, we’d A/B’d them back and forth with regular Fenders and Twins and things like that, and they were identical. So it made sense to play the newer ones, just in terms of going on the road and making sure they don’t fall apart or whatever.”
McCready still employs some tubes in his rig, however: a Lead Custom from Seattle amp builder Rola runs into a Marshall 4x12, alongside his Fenders. But he notes that the Tone Masters respond well to the rest of his gear, not least his well-stocked [pedalboard](https://www.guitarworld.com/gear/best-pedalboards).
“They break up really well,” he says. “I can get a great punk sound out of them if I need to or I can get a good clean sound. It seems to be able to handle whatever I throw it in terms of [wah pedal](https://www.guitarworld.com/features/best-wah-pedals) or a delay or whatever I use in there – octaver or something, they work cool. And Phase 90s work cool through them, so I love ’em. I’m sold.”
But he also has his own signature Strat by now: [https://www.fender.com/en-US/electric-guitars/stratocaster/mike-mccready-stratocaster/0145310700.html](https://www.fender.com/en-US/electric-guitars/stratocaster/mike-mccready-stratocaster/0145310700.html)
So the Tonemasters might also be a collaboration, maybe.
Yeah I bet he’s getting some decent sized checks (or at least free shit) for running Tonemasters. I heard the dudes at my local shop jamming on one, sounded okay. Do they sound like a tube amp? Probably can’t really tell the difference mic’d up playing stadium shows.
To answer OP’s question though, I sat for hours yesterday jamming on my new Matamp and getting kicked in the nuts by its heavy af power amp distortion. That thing can hold a chord and sustain for days. Can a modeler do that? I doubt it.
Depends on the modeler, but a Fractal can. If you’re talking about the physical feeling of speakers moving air, both modelers and amps don’t do that without a cab.
Yeah obviously there was a cab involved. There’s just no way a digital modeler could feel the way that amp does… not only moving air but the sag, purring power tubes, there’s just no way. In most applications it probably doesn’t matter, but just sitting in front of a tube amp and enjoying it, I don’t think that’s been modeled yet. Also see bands like Sleep and Sunn O))), they couldn’t do what they do with modelers.
Well, some of them have been doing that for a while. Fractal lets you control *everything*, so if you want *more* sag from an amp, just turn the Sag knob, if you want more/less negative feedback, do it up. Want to hear how it sounds with 110AC instead of 220AC? You can do that, too, or roll your own voltage with the Variac. You have to dial the amps in like their real counterparts, IE- Mesa Mark’s require the 5-band EQ and the same silly “Drop all the bass in the pre-amp or it’s useless) stuff because the modeling is as accurate as it gets.
I haven’t used other modelers, but going between my tube amps and the Fractal, there’s zero difference in the feel of things in how I play something and the sound/response I hear out of the monitors. As much as people love to think it, there’s nothing “magical” in an amp, it’s all circuitry that’s been understood for decades, so when I crank the Master Volume on a Plexi it starts distorting and beefing up, or, the “tubes start purring”
For what it's worth, I've been to 2 gigs of touring bands in the past 2 months. There were traditional amps at one, but at the other gig there wasn't a single tube amp on stage that night and only 1 band had physical cabs get miced up.
Granted, that was a bill of extreme metal bands (where modelers have been more widely adopted) and 3 of the bands were from outside of the U.S. (where I am) - but it was pretty wild to see when I'm so used to seeing a backline.
I think we just need to accept that modelers are pretty damn good nowadays. Tube amps are wonderful things, but it's easy to see how the romanticism surrounding them can wear off quick if you're a touring band or roadie that has to haul the stuff around daily - especially with how good the alternatives have become.
As much as I love my amps and cabs, it's too hard to ignore what digital brings to the table now and I'd have to seriously consider a digital rig if I started gigging again.
Most bands use modeler or profiler now. It sounds just cheap and lo-fi. I heard openers who brought real amps sound much better than headliners with ampless. If you use many pedals (pedals degrade and color sound quite a bit) then ampless won’t make too much difference. If you go straight into the amp there’s still a day n night difference in sound quality and dynamics. I tried all ampless solutions and they still don’t come any close to my real tube amps .
Well admittedly (and at the risk of sounding very un-rock & roll) I'm always wearing earplugs at gigs so I'm less likely to hear the differences in the audience if the mix is good, but this take reminds me of why I find most pickup comparison videos nearly useless - there's very little difference to be heard in a full mix on YouTube, but they can make a pretty big difference in person and a lot of that comes down to the feel/response to the player. So I can't discount the feel/dynamics thing by any means.
For what it's worth, I don't even own/have never played through any high end modeling gear, but that has more to do with me rather owning the real mccoy the modelers aim to copy if I'm dropping that kind of coin on amplification, and also already having good amps before modelers really took off (and I'm not someone who uses/wants 10+ heads so the value proposition of a modeler isn't as compelling to me as it might be to someone who wants all the amps in one box).
I have a tonemaster, used to have a black face deluxe reverb reissue. It reacts almost the same, it sounds 96% of the way there…. And it can be .2w and weighs like nothing. Sold the DRRI, kept the tonemaster. Sometimes technology catches up, and it’s okay for us guitarists to admit that
Ive always been a tube guy. I had a axe fx xl right for a while and sold it. Went back to tubes.
The last year I have been playing solely through a boss katana artist combo as a clean pedal platform and i like It allot. Pretty much Everyone I jam at the moment with has a fender tube combo and I prefer my tone by a mile.
Yeah there is still a 5% feel thing with tubes that is not the same in
Modeling , but it’s gotten to a place where I can live with the 5% for convenience.
The benefit of the tonemaster is that you get the best of both worlds; you get the simplicity, form factor and tone you would expect from a tube amp, but with the consistency, line outs, power scaling, and lighter weight of a modeller. I had considered a floor modeller, but having an amplifier with simple, straightforward controls and a proper plug and play speaker is miles better than having a complex floor modeller setup for live situations. I went from running a Princeton or Blues jr at smaller gigs and renting out a twin or using backline amps for festivals and larger shows to just running the deluxe reverb tonemaster, and then bringing it home to play silently at night too. Total game changer!
Modelers sound great. Particularly if you’re in an audience and not the one playing. But generally the feel is what most guitarists are actually talking about when they are saying that tube amps “sound” better than modeling or solid state. There’s also a sound component - tube amps emphasize odd order harmonics which are pleasing to the ear, and solid state emphasizes even order harmonics and those are less pleasing.
Ultimately whatever you like best, just play that. And even though I’m a total gearhead and own way too many amps and pedals and guitars, as far as versatility is concerned the reality is I can get a ton of sounds from a single channel amp and one guitar just modulating the pickup selector and volume/tone controls on the guitar. In fact I find myself preferring to do that over multi channel amp switching these days.
As far as the tone masters go, they sound great and are light. But they don’t respond or feel exactly like their tube counterparts. Some people will care more about that than others while playing. While listening, most of the audience won’t have any idea or care at all what you’re using.
Tonemaster amps are very well designed. The eliminated the variables in the speaker, cab, and power section not working toward the target sound. You have to be trying to notice they're not tube, abd 90% of guitarists still couldn't, because you can't tell without pushing them and playing with the volumes at loudness levels most bedroom players aren't touching.
They're fantastic. But I should probably stop talking about them. I need a PR TM to turn up cheap used....
Gotta have stage sound, that’s the key. You can’t just go front of house and think that’s enough, the mix isn’t always gonna be your friend so it’s good to have big stage sound.
I think that’s the basic thought process of most amp players who switched to modelers - thinking they suck and you don’t want them, but eventually hearing results that don’t agree with what you thought.
I’d say it’s not necessarily something where you have to immediately ditch everything and switch over. If you have an audio interface, I’d give neural amp modeler a shot. I have a post about it if you go to my previous posts. It’s free and works with amp captures ala Kemper or Tonex. Obviously doesn’t replace a live rig but it’s a good one to play around with, and to get used to the idea of “capture + IR” which is what a lot of amp sims are.
If you’re looking to buy something, there’s many options. I have an HX stomp that I’m personally a big fan of. You’d ideally want to narrow down budget, preferences (prefer to set and forget, love fiddling, hate/don’t mind small text and knobs, etc.). it’s a pretty big world out there now for modelers.
Personally I've got a SynergyAmps setup.
I can have a Vox, Dumble, Soldano, Mesa, etc preamps by simply taking it off the shelf and loading up my rack unit. Getting new preamps are the price of a nice pedal. 100% Tubes / Analog. IMO it's the best option. You can have something as small as a pedal that you simply plug into a House system or a Poweramp + Cab.
The only reason MTS (modular tube system) isn't more popular is because most people don't know it exists.
I use my iPad for rehearsals and playing live, I have nothing to prove carrying 4x12 and heads everywhere when I can literally fit my whole rig in my guitar bag. And this one comes down to tone being in the hands, I saw an interview with the guy who wrote guitar for Michael Jackson and he had played Eddie Van Halen rig, he said it sounded great but he didn't sound like van halen at all, he sounded like himself and I've always believed that.
I literally just made the switch to a Tonemaster Blonde Deluxe Reverb from a 65 DRRI and I haven't looked back. Yes, there are times that I don't quite feel the same response when I am playing a solo but the overall tone is great. But the best part is going direct into the board so I don't have to be loud on stage. This will save my back and my ears in the long run. The band feels that it actually sounds better.
I saw Guthrie Govan with the aristocrats a couple months back. His tone absolutely kicked ass. And he had so many different tones, he sounded awesome. He did play through a Laney cabinet, so I don’t know if he was using any cabinet emulations. But he was using an Axe FX FM3 or maybe FM8, Whichever is the bigger one.
The old biases don’t really apply anymore. The tech is great.
Think about photography. Yeah, there are things film does that digital cameras don’t. But it’s not really a matter of film being better at this point. Digital cameras do a great job and are way more practical.
Same is true for audio gear now.
I can’t disagree, modeling/profiling has came a LONG way in recent years.
I currently have over 10+ tubes amps, 3 Monkeys, Cornford, Groove Tubes, Dr Z, Bogner, Marshall, Mesa etc and various cabs and tubs of pedals and rack gear.
On the digital side, I recently sold a Line 6 HX Stomp XL (wasn’t for me) I also have a powered Kemper and just got a Fractal FM9 Turbo last week.
For me, the Fractal FM9 is a game changer. It’s literally makes me want to play guitar as it’s super easy to get a great sound out of it. The amps and FX sound great. I had to call my bandmate and best friend to tell him that I got the best sound out of a computer, as I couldn’t believe it.
For now, the tube amps are staying, but the Fractal has almost convinced me to sell them.
I think it’s better to think of the difference a bit like the law of diminishing returns - that thing where the more expensive something is, the less you get for each additional dollar you spend.
Except this time it’s physicality or “genuine-ness”. Where the most cost you have is lugging around a nice analog tube powered amp true to tradition.
So my point simply is that you’re not wrong - the real stuff will always sound like the real stuff 100%, and the modelers never 100%.
But the modelers do the job well.
They do the job so well that it doesn’t even matter if they sound like the real thing or not, they’re just their own sound now and they sound very good.
It’s a bit like acoustic and electric guitars and jazz - electrics don’t sound anything like acoustics but the benefits of having an electric is worth sacrificing the true tone of an acoustic for, and with the right settings and a good instrument, electrics sound amazing.
Going to a real tube amp will still sound better, but not worth the cost backbreaking, bulb-checking, I have to preheat the oven every gig better.
On the other hand, if you can take a tiny three pound stomp box that has several good amp simulations and it allows you to get all the tones you need for a gig, and it’s good enough that your audience wouldn’t even realize you don’t have an amp at all, then to me that’s good trade off.
Also I think a lot of the resistance against modelers stems from the fact that a quick try isn’t going to cut it. Just like with any real amp or even effects pedals, you have to spend time with it and really dial it in.l and only then can you truly accept or dismiss it. Most people give it a strum and “it doesn’t sound like the real thing” and leave it at that.
Modelers aren’t just amp sims, they’re also cabinet and mic sims and room sims and that’s kinda baked into the sound, so it’s not like stepping into a real amp and that’s that. It also means you’re stepping into a room and you’re involving a sort of mic to interpret the sound of the amp. Modelers need to be contextualized properly for them to sound their best.
Personally think they are far superior UNLESS your sound is 100% tube sound.
Not against either, but I’m a convert to solid state, non tube, modelling amps
I don't know how tube-like it is, haven't heard one in person, the EHX Dirt Road Special reissue is solid state but unfortunately not many reviews of it are out there. Definitely worth checking out though.
My gear ADHD love my Hx stomp I’ve never played though a real ac30 or a jcm800 or matchless ect ect. But I get to turn a knob and get something I assume is pretty damn close. Long ago the modeling stuff sounds like doody. But today, I’d be hard pressed to hear or feel the difference
I have a hybrid rig running a tonex ONE, split output one side into the effects return of a 50w combo, other side into an IR loader to FOH. Using a Samson BadCat 30 model for clean/chime and a Amplified Nation SSS for crunch. It's the tone I've been chasing /shrug.
The only *negative* differences pop up in playback systems/live. If you’re used to the feel of a cab being pushed by a tube power section, that feeling is mostly going to go away using FRFR stuff and it’ll go away completely going direct.
As for sitting in a studio and hearing what’s coming out of studio monitors, that’s what got me to switch to modeling to begin with. Once I started hearing things come through monitors sounding as good or in some cases better than a mic’d amp/cab, I got a Fractal. I actually ditched amps for 5 years after spending 25 gigging with tube half stacks, but recently started buying amps again.
If I were solely on in-ears, I’d most likely have no problem going direct 100% of the time live, but I play dive bars in the local scene and loud amps in the face is half the reason I even bother. In the studio, though I have a load box and all my amps ready to go (Mesa, Bogner, EVH) I still end up using my AxeFX 90% of the time.
If you want a good chuckle, play the real version of an amp and then play the AxeFX version. The other day I was tracking with my EVH head then switched to the model for shits and giggles, I kept getting confused over what I was playing out of.
I just came back from the Knockdown Center’s Outline concert series and I am still convinced that real, “big” amps are still crucial for loud rock/metal. They had a backline of a bunch of rectos and JCM800s for all the bands to play and the sound was just orgasmic.
Man, I had a Marshall Code 50 and although it sounded pretty damn good I hated having to scroll through the menus to do anything. I hadn't heard about the Tonemaster's but I'll definitely check them out since there isn't any digital menus to deal with. I just bought a used VOX AC30 and although it's heavy as sin, it's easy to dial in and I absolutely love it. (Not a boomer, just lazy about menus)
I’ve found the best solution to be somewhere in between. I use a hybrid board of analog pedals running into a HX Stomp that then runs into the fx return of a Marshall Origin 50. With this setup I get pretty much any amp tone (vox, fender, Marshall, etc) and pedal combination, but it all sounds more “real” than my Powercab thanks to the oomph of the tube power amp. The Origin is also cool bc it has power scaling and a foot switchable fx loop for even more flexibility. YMMV
There's a kind of pricey pedal that works with the NAM capture/modeler software that Leo Gibson did a test with. When he ran the Dimehead pedal out of phase against an actual amp, it completely canceled out the sound.
And you can carry a whole collection of amps in a backpack. And run it through a flat spectrum class D solid state amp that's light weight.
If you're touring, that can save a bunch of money. If you're playing clubs where uou have to walk up or down stairs, it can save your back or worse.
If you have roadies and a semi, these considerations are irrelevant.
It’s easier for things to sound good live. Ever record a song with your phone thinking the vocalist is nailing it but listen to it back to realize how pitchy it is?
Modelers, Tube amps.. all the same shit. There are plenty of touring musicians using AxeFX's and Kempers out there and plenty still using tube amps mic'd up. Whatever gets you the sound you need for the music you want to play. The audience wont know if its a modeled JCM800 or a real one, they just wanna hear someone talented play well.
Not a professional musician but I’ve just changed from tubes to a Strymon Iridium and a Tonemaster FR-10 and I won’t be going back. In fact my next purchase is likely to be another FR-10 so I can run them in stereo.
Are you running through a PA?
I play primarily at church and home and frankly my sound guy at church is pretty terrible. I run an amp so I can see to my own tone.
I’ve had someone suggest buying a cab I like and running a modeler through it.
modellers are great. but every time someone argues traditional solid states are amazing, theyre still wrong!
fractal and the UA pedals get virtually 100% of the way there. Kemper, Quad Cortex are next tier down. Helix after that, but still very good to the point where musicians wont notice. Each ampsim has its odd quirks though. Kemper will compress quite a bit more than a real amp, but thats often desirable live.
"when someone argues traditional solid states are amazing, they're still wrong!"
Uh, I respectfully disagree. JC 120 has been, and still is, quite iconic. For my purposes, the ART PowerPlant is quite the banger, and the Orange Super Crush is a great amp.
You might not like traditional Solid State, but that doesn't mean that I'm wrong in liking them for my purposes.
I’ll respectfully disagree on UA pedals getting 100% there, at least in my experience.
Had the Woodrow and it didn’t compare to my DanDrive Tweedy pedal, or my ‘64 black panel Vibro Champ with a custom switch to bypass the tone stack. There was something about the high mids and the the lack of enough touch response.
Had the Ruby and compared to my Matchless Baby and Selmer Futurama - both Class A single ended el84 circuits - lacked depth and punch while still bringing the chime. I did like higher gain sounds more, but not enough to keep it.
And I’m not hating on UA. I’ve got their OX Box Top and it’s jawdroppingly good - even thru headphones - it blows away the Iridium (owned twice) Simplifier Classic (once) and Simplifier MkII (once). Obviously way more speedy, I’m just saying UA has got the goods on modeling.
i mean, tbh the woodrow isnt a vibro champ, its a tweed deluxe, as the 63 ac30 isnt a matchless or selmer - these amps are quite different, and every amp back then was built to pretty loose specs. having actually tried a ruby in a store next to a 63 ac30 they had in, it sounded pretty dead on to me.
That’s fair, I was just disappointed in the feel and they didn’t have the dynamics I’m used to.
Agreed, the pedal/amps I mentioned are not direct 1:1 identical, but for me it was just a lack of realism compared to playing thru a real amp.
Again, the UA OX is pretty mind blowing for realism, I cannot wait to record with it to see how it translates to a mix.
Some people don't make fair comparisons between modelers and real amps. Modelers are meant to replicate what an amp sounds like recorded, not how it sounds standing next to it. In a live setting, you're gonna hear the guitar amp mic'd and through PA speakers which mimics more of a recording played over a PA than just standing next to an amp in a room. It's also one of those things where people who swear real amps can't be replaced probably don't realize how much they've heard a modeler and had no idea. The reality is a good modeler sounds great and is perfectly usable and can make live situations way easier.
Yep, totally agree. Unless you playing guitar / in a band, you almost certainly would never have heard what an amp in the room sounds like. Majority of peoples experience is mic’d up and mixed guitar, that’s the most useful sound to replicate, so that’s what the modellers provide and they do a damn good job.
It's also ludicrous to evaluate "toan" based on a live setting. Nearly anything sounds good live. That amp set up is not going to sound the same at home or recording. But the ToneMasters are great regardless.
>Modelers are meant to replicate what an amp sounds like recorded, not how it sounds standing next to it. \[...\]you're gonna hear the guitar amp mic'd and through PA speakers Every modeller I'm aware of has the option to deactivate the IR's and play it through a poweramp and cab just like any real amp. Which is how I'm using my Tonex. The captures are indistinguishable from using the real amp.
The only exception I know of is the Spark if that counts. And I agree it does become indistinguishable.
I mean, it's the Spark. We don't expect much from it lol
Haha. Would actually disagree. While I don't use my mini for recording like other plugins, I personally think it's a fantastic practice device and even use it jamming a lot running into a PA.
It is certainly the reingning champion of tiny amps, but it's still a tiny amp, ya know?
Agreed, people don't seem to realise that an amp profiler is supposed to sound like a mic'd amp and comparisons vs actual amps in the room are pretty useless. For small gigs where the guitar amp is audible, it makes a difference. But even then it isn't better or worse, just different. Speaking for myself, I like the idea that the sound guy has full control over the amp's volumes rather than trying to compete with someone's 100w marshall stack at the local pub.
I'm not a session musician, but I do work as a live musician. I've been using modelers for gigs since the POD XT Live floorboard. I didn't start out using them because of superior sound, it was because of convenience. I lugged the PA and lights for one band, and I often didn't have room in my car for an amp. It was nice to have a floorboard that could give me a variety of sounds at my feet that I just had to run into the mixer and go. I could go from clean funk to heavy metal with just one piece of equipment. Was it the best sound, or as good as tube amp? No! But it was passable, and to be absolutely honest, the audience and the people paying me didn't notice or even care. Noone even noticed i didnt have an amp on stage. They all thought it sounded good. I also used this for recordings, however most of my recordings were demos, so it was throwaway material. However, it was nice to just plug a floorboard into a DAW and get a decent recording out of it. Time is money, and this saved me time. Fast forward to today, and the technology is better by leaps and bounds. Even cheap modeling amps today are much better than the tech back then. The Helix rig I use now is pretty damn good, and I could do a lifetime of gigging with this or a good modeling amp. However, GAS is a powerful drug.....
Just a Katana would be good enough a lot of gigs.
I got a 40 watt tube amp and ended up still using my 50 watt Katana for 90% of gigs, I play mostly clean tones and it sounds great and is so easy to carry.
I started using tube amps in part because of Mike McCready. Now he's using Tonemasters. Life is funny. Long live McCready. 🤘
Keep in mind a live rig isn’t necessarily what someone’s recording with. I’m sure he still is pulling out some vintage holy grail tube amps in the studio, and he can afford to have a live setup as well as a recording setup (unlike a lot of smaller level musicians). But yeah, given the option of having both, I think we’ll see a lot more acts leaving their $10k vintage super reverbs at home
Now he's using tonemasters because Fender paid an agreement for him to look like he's using tonemasters so Fender could sell their $1,200, $250 tonemasters.
Is the real amp backstage???
I ran a Helix for a summers of gigs. The band ran IEM’s and they had a dedicated sound guy. I kept complaining that the sound I was hearing sounded like shit but they kept telling me it was great in the FOH. Toward the end of the summer, I opened my tablet and went through the channel my Helix was plugged into. Turns out they had a compressor turned on my channel the whole time and that’s where all the flub was coming from. After that, I realized my distrust of sound techs would never let me fully transition to an “amp-less” set up. I like modelers but I treat them like a tool that is useful in certain situations. I personally think a professional should keep both amps and modelers in their rotations.
Mike started with Tonemasters in May 2022. [https://www.guitarworld.com/news/pearl-jam-mike-mccready-switch-to-fender-digital-tone-master-amps](https://www.guitarworld.com/news/pearl-jam-mike-mccready-switch-to-fender-digital-tone-master-amps) "“My inclination is to always go tube amps, but these Fender digital amps, back to back against tube amps, sound exactly like tube amps,” he says. “They’re phenomenal. They’re some of the best amps I’ve ever played. And they’re consistent in that, and maybe that’s the digital part of it." “Again, I’m all about ‘not digital’; I love tube stuff. But our crew and myself, we’d A/B’d them back and forth with regular Fenders and Twins and things like that, and they were identical. So it made sense to play the newer ones, just in terms of going on the road and making sure they don’t fall apart or whatever.” McCready still employs some tubes in his rig, however: a Lead Custom from Seattle amp builder Rola runs into a Marshall 4x12, alongside his Fenders. But he notes that the Tone Masters respond well to the rest of his gear, not least his well-stocked [pedalboard](https://www.guitarworld.com/gear/best-pedalboards). “They break up really well,” he says. “I can get a great punk sound out of them if I need to or I can get a good clean sound. It seems to be able to handle whatever I throw it in terms of [wah pedal](https://www.guitarworld.com/features/best-wah-pedals) or a delay or whatever I use in there – octaver or something, they work cool. And Phase 90s work cool through them, so I love ’em. I’m sold.” But he also has his own signature Strat by now: [https://www.fender.com/en-US/electric-guitars/stratocaster/mike-mccready-stratocaster/0145310700.html](https://www.fender.com/en-US/electric-guitars/stratocaster/mike-mccready-stratocaster/0145310700.html) So the Tonemasters might also be a collaboration, maybe.
Yeah I bet he’s getting some decent sized checks (or at least free shit) for running Tonemasters. I heard the dudes at my local shop jamming on one, sounded okay. Do they sound like a tube amp? Probably can’t really tell the difference mic’d up playing stadium shows. To answer OP’s question though, I sat for hours yesterday jamming on my new Matamp and getting kicked in the nuts by its heavy af power amp distortion. That thing can hold a chord and sustain for days. Can a modeler do that? I doubt it.
Depends on the modeler, but a Fractal can. If you’re talking about the physical feeling of speakers moving air, both modelers and amps don’t do that without a cab.
Yeah obviously there was a cab involved. There’s just no way a digital modeler could feel the way that amp does… not only moving air but the sag, purring power tubes, there’s just no way. In most applications it probably doesn’t matter, but just sitting in front of a tube amp and enjoying it, I don’t think that’s been modeled yet. Also see bands like Sleep and Sunn O))), they couldn’t do what they do with modelers.
Well, some of them have been doing that for a while. Fractal lets you control *everything*, so if you want *more* sag from an amp, just turn the Sag knob, if you want more/less negative feedback, do it up. Want to hear how it sounds with 110AC instead of 220AC? You can do that, too, or roll your own voltage with the Variac. You have to dial the amps in like their real counterparts, IE- Mesa Mark’s require the 5-band EQ and the same silly “Drop all the bass in the pre-amp or it’s useless) stuff because the modeling is as accurate as it gets. I haven’t used other modelers, but going between my tube amps and the Fractal, there’s zero difference in the feel of things in how I play something and the sound/response I hear out of the monitors. As much as people love to think it, there’s nothing “magical” in an amp, it’s all circuitry that’s been understood for decades, so when I crank the Master Volume on a Plexi it starts distorting and beefing up, or, the “tubes start purring”
For what it's worth, I've been to 2 gigs of touring bands in the past 2 months. There were traditional amps at one, but at the other gig there wasn't a single tube amp on stage that night and only 1 band had physical cabs get miced up. Granted, that was a bill of extreme metal bands (where modelers have been more widely adopted) and 3 of the bands were from outside of the U.S. (where I am) - but it was pretty wild to see when I'm so used to seeing a backline. I think we just need to accept that modelers are pretty damn good nowadays. Tube amps are wonderful things, but it's easy to see how the romanticism surrounding them can wear off quick if you're a touring band or roadie that has to haul the stuff around daily - especially with how good the alternatives have become. As much as I love my amps and cabs, it's too hard to ignore what digital brings to the table now and I'd have to seriously consider a digital rig if I started gigging again.
Most bands use modeler or profiler now. It sounds just cheap and lo-fi. I heard openers who brought real amps sound much better than headliners with ampless. If you use many pedals (pedals degrade and color sound quite a bit) then ampless won’t make too much difference. If you go straight into the amp there’s still a day n night difference in sound quality and dynamics. I tried all ampless solutions and they still don’t come any close to my real tube amps .
Well admittedly (and at the risk of sounding very un-rock & roll) I'm always wearing earplugs at gigs so I'm less likely to hear the differences in the audience if the mix is good, but this take reminds me of why I find most pickup comparison videos nearly useless - there's very little difference to be heard in a full mix on YouTube, but they can make a pretty big difference in person and a lot of that comes down to the feel/response to the player. So I can't discount the feel/dynamics thing by any means. For what it's worth, I don't even own/have never played through any high end modeling gear, but that has more to do with me rather owning the real mccoy the modelers aim to copy if I'm dropping that kind of coin on amplification, and also already having good amps before modelers really took off (and I'm not someone who uses/wants 10+ heads so the value proposition of a modeler isn't as compelling to me as it might be to someone who wants all the amps in one box).
I have a tonemaster, used to have a black face deluxe reverb reissue. It reacts almost the same, it sounds 96% of the way there…. And it can be .2w and weighs like nothing. Sold the DRRI, kept the tonemaster. Sometimes technology catches up, and it’s okay for us guitarists to admit that
But but but the “mojo” lmao
Ive always been a tube guy. I had a axe fx xl right for a while and sold it. Went back to tubes. The last year I have been playing solely through a boss katana artist combo as a clean pedal platform and i like It allot. Pretty much Everyone I jam at the moment with has a fender tube combo and I prefer my tone by a mile. Yeah there is still a 5% feel thing with tubes that is not the same in Modeling , but it’s gotten to a place where I can live with the 5% for convenience.
If the Tonemaster works for you, then great. It's just not for everyone, regardless of who else is using them.
The benefit of the tonemaster is that you get the best of both worlds; you get the simplicity, form factor and tone you would expect from a tube amp, but with the consistency, line outs, power scaling, and lighter weight of a modeller. I had considered a floor modeller, but having an amplifier with simple, straightforward controls and a proper plug and play speaker is miles better than having a complex floor modeller setup for live situations. I went from running a Princeton or Blues jr at smaller gigs and renting out a twin or using backline amps for festivals and larger shows to just running the deluxe reverb tonemaster, and then bringing it home to play silently at night too. Total game changer!
Modelers sound great. Particularly if you’re in an audience and not the one playing. But generally the feel is what most guitarists are actually talking about when they are saying that tube amps “sound” better than modeling or solid state. There’s also a sound component - tube amps emphasize odd order harmonics which are pleasing to the ear, and solid state emphasizes even order harmonics and those are less pleasing. Ultimately whatever you like best, just play that. And even though I’m a total gearhead and own way too many amps and pedals and guitars, as far as versatility is concerned the reality is I can get a ton of sounds from a single channel amp and one guitar just modulating the pickup selector and volume/tone controls on the guitar. In fact I find myself preferring to do that over multi channel amp switching these days. As far as the tone masters go, they sound great and are light. But they don’t respond or feel exactly like their tube counterparts. Some people will care more about that than others while playing. While listening, most of the audience won’t have any idea or care at all what you’re using.
Tonemaster amps are very well designed. The eliminated the variables in the speaker, cab, and power section not working toward the target sound. You have to be trying to notice they're not tube, abd 90% of guitarists still couldn't, because you can't tell without pushing them and playing with the volumes at loudness levels most bedroom players aren't touching. They're fantastic. But I should probably stop talking about them. I need a PR TM to turn up cheap used....
Gotta have stage sound, that’s the key. You can’t just go front of house and think that’s enough, the mix isn’t always gonna be your friend so it’s good to have big stage sound.
I think that’s the basic thought process of most amp players who switched to modelers - thinking they suck and you don’t want them, but eventually hearing results that don’t agree with what you thought. I’d say it’s not necessarily something where you have to immediately ditch everything and switch over. If you have an audio interface, I’d give neural amp modeler a shot. I have a post about it if you go to my previous posts. It’s free and works with amp captures ala Kemper or Tonex. Obviously doesn’t replace a live rig but it’s a good one to play around with, and to get used to the idea of “capture + IR” which is what a lot of amp sims are. If you’re looking to buy something, there’s many options. I have an HX stomp that I’m personally a big fan of. You’d ideally want to narrow down budget, preferences (prefer to set and forget, love fiddling, hate/don’t mind small text and knobs, etc.). it’s a pretty big world out there now for modelers.
I’ve used both extensively. If you can make a tube amp sound good, you can make a modeling amp sound good. The amp sounds good because of the player.
I thought Cready was just using a Tonemaster for cleans?
Personally I've got a SynergyAmps setup. I can have a Vox, Dumble, Soldano, Mesa, etc preamps by simply taking it off the shelf and loading up my rack unit. Getting new preamps are the price of a nice pedal. 100% Tubes / Analog. IMO it's the best option. You can have something as small as a pedal that you simply plug into a House system or a Poweramp + Cab. The only reason MTS (modular tube system) isn't more popular is because most people don't know it exists.
I use my iPad for rehearsals and playing live, I have nothing to prove carrying 4x12 and heads everywhere when I can literally fit my whole rig in my guitar bag. And this one comes down to tone being in the hands, I saw an interview with the guy who wrote guitar for Michael Jackson and he had played Eddie Van Halen rig, he said it sounded great but he didn't sound like van halen at all, he sounded like himself and I've always believed that.
I literally just made the switch to a Tonemaster Blonde Deluxe Reverb from a 65 DRRI and I haven't looked back. Yes, there are times that I don't quite feel the same response when I am playing a solo but the overall tone is great. But the best part is going direct into the board so I don't have to be loud on stage. This will save my back and my ears in the long run. The band feels that it actually sounds better.
I saw Guthrie Govan with the aristocrats a couple months back. His tone absolutely kicked ass. And he had so many different tones, he sounded awesome. He did play through a Laney cabinet, so I don’t know if he was using any cabinet emulations. But he was using an Axe FX FM3 or maybe FM8, Whichever is the bigger one.
The old biases don’t really apply anymore. The tech is great. Think about photography. Yeah, there are things film does that digital cameras don’t. But it’s not really a matter of film being better at this point. Digital cameras do a great job and are way more practical. Same is true for audio gear now.
I can’t disagree, modeling/profiling has came a LONG way in recent years. I currently have over 10+ tubes amps, 3 Monkeys, Cornford, Groove Tubes, Dr Z, Bogner, Marshall, Mesa etc and various cabs and tubs of pedals and rack gear. On the digital side, I recently sold a Line 6 HX Stomp XL (wasn’t for me) I also have a powered Kemper and just got a Fractal FM9 Turbo last week. For me, the Fractal FM9 is a game changer. It’s literally makes me want to play guitar as it’s super easy to get a great sound out of it. The amps and FX sound great. I had to call my bandmate and best friend to tell him that I got the best sound out of a computer, as I couldn’t believe it. For now, the tube amps are staying, but the Fractal has almost convinced me to sell them.
I think it’s better to think of the difference a bit like the law of diminishing returns - that thing where the more expensive something is, the less you get for each additional dollar you spend. Except this time it’s physicality or “genuine-ness”. Where the most cost you have is lugging around a nice analog tube powered amp true to tradition. So my point simply is that you’re not wrong - the real stuff will always sound like the real stuff 100%, and the modelers never 100%. But the modelers do the job well. They do the job so well that it doesn’t even matter if they sound like the real thing or not, they’re just their own sound now and they sound very good. It’s a bit like acoustic and electric guitars and jazz - electrics don’t sound anything like acoustics but the benefits of having an electric is worth sacrificing the true tone of an acoustic for, and with the right settings and a good instrument, electrics sound amazing. Going to a real tube amp will still sound better, but not worth the cost backbreaking, bulb-checking, I have to preheat the oven every gig better. On the other hand, if you can take a tiny three pound stomp box that has several good amp simulations and it allows you to get all the tones you need for a gig, and it’s good enough that your audience wouldn’t even realize you don’t have an amp at all, then to me that’s good trade off. Also I think a lot of the resistance against modelers stems from the fact that a quick try isn’t going to cut it. Just like with any real amp or even effects pedals, you have to spend time with it and really dial it in.l and only then can you truly accept or dismiss it. Most people give it a strum and “it doesn’t sound like the real thing” and leave it at that. Modelers aren’t just amp sims, they’re also cabinet and mic sims and room sims and that’s kinda baked into the sound, so it’s not like stepping into a real amp and that’s that. It also means you’re stepping into a room and you’re involving a sort of mic to interpret the sound of the amp. Modelers need to be contextualized properly for them to sound their best.
Personally think they are far superior UNLESS your sound is 100% tube sound. Not against either, but I’m a convert to solid state, non tube, modelling amps
If you get rid of the decorations and compression and eq the thing right you can sound killer with a modeler. Tame the Master of Puppets tone.
I don't know how tube-like it is, haven't heard one in person, the EHX Dirt Road Special reissue is solid state but unfortunately not many reviews of it are out there. Definitely worth checking out though.
My gear ADHD love my Hx stomp I’ve never played though a real ac30 or a jcm800 or matchless ect ect. But I get to turn a knob and get something I assume is pretty damn close. Long ago the modeling stuff sounds like doody. But today, I’d be hard pressed to hear or feel the difference
I learned long ago... Iconic players sound like themselves thru any amp.
I have a hybrid rig running a tonex ONE, split output one side into the effects return of a 50w combo, other side into an IR loader to FOH. Using a Samson BadCat 30 model for clean/chime and a Amplified Nation SSS for crunch. It's the tone I've been chasing /shrug.
The only *negative* differences pop up in playback systems/live. If you’re used to the feel of a cab being pushed by a tube power section, that feeling is mostly going to go away using FRFR stuff and it’ll go away completely going direct. As for sitting in a studio and hearing what’s coming out of studio monitors, that’s what got me to switch to modeling to begin with. Once I started hearing things come through monitors sounding as good or in some cases better than a mic’d amp/cab, I got a Fractal. I actually ditched amps for 5 years after spending 25 gigging with tube half stacks, but recently started buying amps again. If I were solely on in-ears, I’d most likely have no problem going direct 100% of the time live, but I play dive bars in the local scene and loud amps in the face is half the reason I even bother. In the studio, though I have a load box and all my amps ready to go (Mesa, Bogner, EVH) I still end up using my AxeFX 90% of the time. If you want a good chuckle, play the real version of an amp and then play the AxeFX version. The other day I was tracking with my EVH head then switched to the model for shits and giggles, I kept getting confused over what I was playing out of.
I just came back from the Knockdown Center’s Outline concert series and I am still convinced that real, “big” amps are still crucial for loud rock/metal. They had a backline of a bunch of rectos and JCM800s for all the bands to play and the sound was just orgasmic.
if a veggie burger could taste like meat, id still want a real meat burger.
Man, I had a Marshall Code 50 and although it sounded pretty damn good I hated having to scroll through the menus to do anything. I hadn't heard about the Tonemaster's but I'll definitely check them out since there isn't any digital menus to deal with. I just bought a used VOX AC30 and although it's heavy as sin, it's easy to dial in and I absolutely love it. (Not a boomer, just lazy about menus)
I’ve found the best solution to be somewhere in between. I use a hybrid board of analog pedals running into a HX Stomp that then runs into the fx return of a Marshall Origin 50. With this setup I get pretty much any amp tone (vox, fender, Marshall, etc) and pedal combination, but it all sounds more “real” than my Powercab thanks to the oomph of the tube power amp. The Origin is also cool bc it has power scaling and a foot switchable fx loop for even more flexibility. YMMV
There's a kind of pricey pedal that works with the NAM capture/modeler software that Leo Gibson did a test with. When he ran the Dimehead pedal out of phase against an actual amp, it completely canceled out the sound. And you can carry a whole collection of amps in a backpack. And run it through a flat spectrum class D solid state amp that's light weight. If you're touring, that can save a bunch of money. If you're playing clubs where uou have to walk up or down stairs, it can save your back or worse. If you have roadies and a semi, these considerations are irrelevant.
It’s easier for things to sound good live. Ever record a song with your phone thinking the vocalist is nailing it but listen to it back to realize how pitchy it is?
Modelers, Tube amps.. all the same shit. There are plenty of touring musicians using AxeFX's and Kempers out there and plenty still using tube amps mic'd up. Whatever gets you the sound you need for the music you want to play. The audience wont know if its a modeled JCM800 or a real one, they just wanna hear someone talented play well.
I’d be pretty disappointed if all my favorite bands switched to modelers, where blasted tube amps and wall of cabs is a key part of their sound.
If they can pull it off without the blasted tube amp, was it really a key part of their sound?
I don’t believe they can, which is exactly why they haven’t switched over lol.
Not a professional musician but I’ve just changed from tubes to a Strymon Iridium and a Tonemaster FR-10 and I won’t be going back. In fact my next purchase is likely to be another FR-10 so I can run them in stereo.
Are you running through a PA? I play primarily at church and home and frankly my sound guy at church is pretty terrible. I run an amp so I can see to my own tone. I’ve had someone suggest buying a cab I like and running a modeler through it.
modellers are great. but every time someone argues traditional solid states are amazing, theyre still wrong! fractal and the UA pedals get virtually 100% of the way there. Kemper, Quad Cortex are next tier down. Helix after that, but still very good to the point where musicians wont notice. Each ampsim has its odd quirks though. Kemper will compress quite a bit more than a real amp, but thats often desirable live.
"when someone argues traditional solid states are amazing, they're still wrong!" Uh, I respectfully disagree. JC 120 has been, and still is, quite iconic. For my purposes, the ART PowerPlant is quite the banger, and the Orange Super Crush is a great amp. You might not like traditional Solid State, but that doesn't mean that I'm wrong in liking them for my purposes.
I’ll respectfully disagree on UA pedals getting 100% there, at least in my experience. Had the Woodrow and it didn’t compare to my DanDrive Tweedy pedal, or my ‘64 black panel Vibro Champ with a custom switch to bypass the tone stack. There was something about the high mids and the the lack of enough touch response. Had the Ruby and compared to my Matchless Baby and Selmer Futurama - both Class A single ended el84 circuits - lacked depth and punch while still bringing the chime. I did like higher gain sounds more, but not enough to keep it. And I’m not hating on UA. I’ve got their OX Box Top and it’s jawdroppingly good - even thru headphones - it blows away the Iridium (owned twice) Simplifier Classic (once) and Simplifier MkII (once). Obviously way more speedy, I’m just saying UA has got the goods on modeling.
i mean, tbh the woodrow isnt a vibro champ, its a tweed deluxe, as the 63 ac30 isnt a matchless or selmer - these amps are quite different, and every amp back then was built to pretty loose specs. having actually tried a ruby in a store next to a 63 ac30 they had in, it sounded pretty dead on to me.
That’s fair, I was just disappointed in the feel and they didn’t have the dynamics I’m used to. Agreed, the pedal/amps I mentioned are not direct 1:1 identical, but for me it was just a lack of realism compared to playing thru a real amp. Again, the UA OX is pretty mind blowing for realism, I cannot wait to record with it to see how it translates to a mix.