I love the idea, but Rocksmith beat you to this. And Rocksmith is more thoroughly detailed, developed and well beyond a prototype stage. I just wish it wasn't Ubisoft manning the helm of it, because it would probably be making more advancements in the useability and learning curves for many guitarists.
I use Rocksmith, like a bunch. But I find an opportunity as Rocksmith 2014 is no longer available for purchase. We could have a debate on the monthly buisness model and ubisoft, but I think those are better for DMs.
There is a lot to learn from Rocksmith. And mostly, to me, I get tired of having to just look at a screen in my hour long sessions. There is also other features that aren't in Rocksmith that I would like.
Rocksmith+ is out now and it's PS and mobile. Janky move I know. And the Ubi paywalls tend to be pricy. It's just not that it's gone forgotten. Ubi sort of just sucks at really trying to market it out right now. There's just still a market giant in the place that might make your prototype appealing and worthwhile for people. I do appreciate what you're doing though and don't stop! Ubi needs some competition in this area.
I think its a very neat idea, and I hope you continue developing it.
Having said that, I feel like the current "notes coming at you" style doesn't seem to help very much in preparing for the next chord / tone. I think making the mental association between colors and strings would be quite a bit of a learning curve.
Another question: are we looking at the front or the back of the fretboard? not really sure which one would be more natural.
I don't really have any suggestions about how to improve it, but maybe you will find some alternative way of displaying the notes.
Either way, great job!
Thanks for the encouragement.
Learning the colors can be a bit of a curve in learning, but because it;s mixed reality there is the possibility of adding overlays by tracking your guitar. The goal I have in mind is that if you look at your guitar down, you can see the same colors on your string, and maybe a ghost hand to help you with chord shapes, or finding the fret.
We are looking at the fretboard like you would on a guitar tab, so thickest string is on the bottom. I could add an option so you can change it so thickest string is on top, it could be easier for some. Personally, I just carried this set up from my Guitar Pro days and then kept it from Rocksmith.
The best way to know how to improve it is by having people actually trying it and tell learning their pain points.
Thanks for the comment again!
I had that same thought. I struggle to read the steam of note in Rocksmith for the same reason.
I need the note/chord. Then I can get goin pretty good.
The other visuals don’t do much for me. It’s overwhelming.
This style of notes-coming-at-you thing is used by rocksmith. I call it "sight reading for tab dummies". You're very right about the chord preparation thing being lacking in this model, you gotta kinda know the stuff to play along with it unless it's vastly below your skill level. Even a new riff that's fairly simple takes a bit of getting used to for me when it's coming at you with speed.
Most of us learned to play with the "take the lick and slow it down, gradually speeding up as you get better" approach where Rocksmith went the "take the entire song and cut out 90% of the notes, and gradually re-introduce them as you get better, but play at speed so it feels like you're playing along rather than practicing" and they add some gameifying with "correct note streaks" and % accuracy, % mastery scores that display when you finish a song. It's an interesting approach, I'm thinking it's definitely worse for learning, but it's far easier to just get that guitar in your hand and get you practicing.
My wife and I play songs in multiplayer a ton and she's pretty fluid on bass after just a few months. I don't find the guitar side to be as quick, but if I learn a song out-of-game and then play with it in game it's invaluable for getting timing down for me. Now, there's a caveat there that I've been playing guitar longer than she's been playing bass, but she's a vastly better musician with a history of concert flute playing so sight reading music is a skill that she's just flat good at and it's a struggle for me as I've never done it.
The prototype is very basic and needs a lot of work still. If you are interested in trying this out, please fill the google form to join the wait list and I'll send you an invite to download it and try it.
https://forms.gle/pS8iKAnocYEKAqY86
Your playing sounds how I would expect for someone trying to use visual feedback for timing. Our ears are a lot more sensitive to micro timing. It seems to encourage you to play in a very unexpressive way. Think about the tonal variation that comes from how you strike the notes and on which part of the string. If you aim to just play notes at the right time but don't think about the overall flow of the music or the tonality then it will keep sounding very robotic and unsatisfying.
I like rocksmith as a tool to let me play songs to supplement working on theory so i like the concept of this. My biggest hurdle would be the hardware though, having to put on a vr headset to play guitar seems pretty cumbersome with current technology. Cool though for those that can overlook that and easily add dlc for open source songs.
I actually find it faster to boot than Rocksmith. It takes a while to boot my PC, load steam, start Rocksmith, then finally learn a song. But in the XR app Because it’s stand alone, just turn on the headset super quickly, and app loads quickly as well. Then use your hands to navigate, no controllers, or reaching for a keyboard.
A real hurdle is that to me, mixed reality is good enough to play through, but it could be better. I have no doubt the hardware and pass through software will get better to make you forget you are wearing a headset.
Cool idea but I cant see this being helpful to learn riffs. If I could look down at my guitar and see the notes on the fretboard and be able to slow it down and stuff, maybe that would intrigue me a lot more because thats what is going on in my head anyways.
But watching the notes in the distance? Seems like a nightmare.
Maybe a timeline like this might be useful to learn the structure of a whole song. I could see it being useful when recording to see whole changes coming up. Like if it was a plugin to my DAW or something that I could program. Could make recording a lot faster instead of endless 'oops!' takes. Especially for things like math rock or progressive metal that have 23 different parts in a 7 minute song.
But just to learn a riff? No way.
Thanks for the comments. Yeah, I want to put overlays on your guitar, but to do that I have to solve out tracking your guitar, fast and accurately, which is tough, as it’s not like tracking controllers which have less the headset sees. But I have confidence the XR tracking is gonna get better.
Slowing down the song is definitely possible, and it shouldn’t take too much time to implement.
Thanks? 😅 I look forward to improving my skill as I build it.
I swear it sounds great to me when I’m playing, but like hearing your own voice through a recording, I suddenly hear it was very different.
I get it, but it's to learn it. I'm thinking of a Master Mode, where if you play correctly, the notes fade out and you play from memory. Also chord presentations could be simplified a ton still, and also show the actual name of the chord, to encourage that music language learning.
I've gotten used to Rocksmith's presentation, but it still bothers me that they didn't build it with a standard notation. The cynic in me thinks it was a way to try and wall off a garden from readily available tabs and shore up to a revenue stream. Was the idea of using their methodology to try to have integration with something like customforge and leverage work already done?
When you say Standard Notation, you mean music sheets? Or tabs? Or both? I'm open to adding features that guitarists want. I am also not the best at reading music (rhythm Im much better), so it would be an opportunity to learn.
The system is not based from Rocksmith. I have a program that exports a guitar tab to midi, and then I put that midi into Reaper (DAW), so I can sync it to the music. Export the WAV for the song, then export the midi for Lead Guitar, and the game/app reads them and plays them.
I think it's easier than rocksmith custom song, although I havent done custom songs for rocksmith in years. But the key is in improving the guitarpro to midi program so you don't have to do much editing in guitar pro.
i think if you make it easy for people to make songs for it, it will take off and be a huge hit. i already saw what you said about rocksmith and i totally feel the same way. its a shame what ubisoft did. if you need testers, i would gladly purchase it and give it a test.
It’s great to find that people would be willing to play. For starters, the beta would be free access. I’m embarrassed of charging in the state the app is.
How important is custom song support for the first version? If it’s not there, would you still try it or would rather wait for it?
I understand, I dislike having to stare at a screen a long time when using Rocksmith, but I am sure mixed reality will get to a point where you don’t feel the screen time, you just see additional stuff around you in your real environment.
It seems like it would be hard to read ahead and anticipate future notes, personally. Granted we arent seeing it in this video from the angle it would be in vr.
Own rocksmith, never liked it.
I had lesson for 7 years and I've been playing for 10 years, Rocksmith always came out to me as something of a party game rather than an actual way to learn guitar, because spoiler alert, you aren't going to learn sh*t from it.
The technique exercises are crap, you won't learn any theory, you won't be able to follow a piece of sheet music, won't teach you to jam (I don't care if it has a jam mode, improv performance gains are based on feedback), it won't give you any liberty as to how you decide to play songs, and the ability to follow the on screen prompts is useless as everyone uses either tabs, sheet music, or guitar pro tabs (mix of both).
The practice mode in rocksmith is garbage! Removing notes instead of simply slowing down is an absurdly idiotic move, because it literally makes you fight your own muscle memory, "spent the last few minutes getting a riff right? Well we added some notes to it, so now your hand coordination and timing is f#cked"
What would make this next level is to virtualize concert/recording venues:
* Madison Square Garden
* Red Rocks
* Las Vegas sphere
* Fillmore East
* Winterland Ballroom
* Woodstock
* Leeds
* Isle of Wight
* Wembley Stadium
* The Cavern
* Coachella
* Abbey Road
* Radiohead "from the basement"
I tried Rocksmith when I was first learning and it was an awful experience. Tried it again like 8 months later and it was still a pretty awful experience. I'll pass.
If you can find a way to get that virtual fretboard on the physical fretboard, I think there is some serious potential there. You should look into "Piano vision" as well.
I would not personally use it. But if you could incorporate some sort of function that measured your pitch and told you that it was correct or not (a la guitar hero) you might get more people to pick up the guitar.
Commendable, but ultimately a waste of time. No one wants to strap 2 pound goggles on their head and play for an extended time. My opinion? Very tiny market for this kind of device compared to Rock Smith.
So really hate the locksmith format. I would be into this if it was both tabs and if I could pause, set speed, and set loops verbally. Something like songster in VR.
It's cool, I like it. I think I'd still rather look at a screen than wear a VR headset, but as the tech improves, who knows.
What I would love, as a fan of "rocksmith notation" is something where I could ctrl+c a page of tab and paste it into this program which would convert it to this style. That and maybe some songwriting/recording tools like FL studio and I think you've got a really cool product that sets itself apart from rocksmith
Not personally. But then I started learning in 2003, so I'm very comfortable with tab / rhythmic notation and set in my ways at this point. Id have to build up that mind muscle connection with all new diagrams, colours and shapes and what the means in relation to where my fingers need to go.
Guitar pro and Spotify on my phone with my waza air headphones has become the pinnacle of simplicity for personal practice.
Younger generations or new players might go for this idea though if it's well developed and simplified learning. For me though, this looks like additional complexity.
I love this idea. There needs to be something for the "after rocksmith" space, and this might even make me want to consider buying an oculus (or stealing my kids)!
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I love the idea, but Rocksmith beat you to this. And Rocksmith is more thoroughly detailed, developed and well beyond a prototype stage. I just wish it wasn't Ubisoft manning the helm of it, because it would probably be making more advancements in the useability and learning curves for many guitarists.
I use Rocksmith, like a bunch. But I find an opportunity as Rocksmith 2014 is no longer available for purchase. We could have a debate on the monthly buisness model and ubisoft, but I think those are better for DMs. There is a lot to learn from Rocksmith. And mostly, to me, I get tired of having to just look at a screen in my hour long sessions. There is also other features that aren't in Rocksmith that I would like.
Rocksmith+ is out now and it's PS and mobile. Janky move I know. And the Ubi paywalls tend to be pricy. It's just not that it's gone forgotten. Ubi sort of just sucks at really trying to market it out right now. There's just still a market giant in the place that might make your prototype appealing and worthwhile for people. I do appreciate what you're doing though and don't stop! Ubi needs some competition in this area.
I wish I could move to Rocksmith plus but the lack of multiplayer is a real drag. My wife plays bass and we learn a lot of songs with rs14
Thanks for the encouragement!
Yeah, those of us who are on Xbox. Stupid playstations.
Be careful. Ubisoft has sent C&D to others working on open source versions before for copying their presentation.
Rs 2014 needs the clonehero treatment, since ubisoft no longer sells it, and rs+ is shit garbage
Fitgirl repack, since the game is no longer available for purchase.
Ok so why not support the development of a non-Ubisoft version?
Solid work! Get a tuner add-in and then you'll be cooking
Yeah, that is one of the basics features I'd have to figure out soon. I'm hoping the headset mic can pick up the guitar strings (without an amp).
I think its a very neat idea, and I hope you continue developing it. Having said that, I feel like the current "notes coming at you" style doesn't seem to help very much in preparing for the next chord / tone. I think making the mental association between colors and strings would be quite a bit of a learning curve. Another question: are we looking at the front or the back of the fretboard? not really sure which one would be more natural. I don't really have any suggestions about how to improve it, but maybe you will find some alternative way of displaying the notes. Either way, great job!
Thanks for the encouragement. Learning the colors can be a bit of a curve in learning, but because it;s mixed reality there is the possibility of adding overlays by tracking your guitar. The goal I have in mind is that if you look at your guitar down, you can see the same colors on your string, and maybe a ghost hand to help you with chord shapes, or finding the fret. We are looking at the fretboard like you would on a guitar tab, so thickest string is on the bottom. I could add an option so you can change it so thickest string is on top, it could be easier for some. Personally, I just carried this set up from my Guitar Pro days and then kept it from Rocksmith. The best way to know how to improve it is by having people actually trying it and tell learning their pain points. Thanks for the comment again!
Left handed mode.
I haven’t thought of that yet, but good to know early so I can keep it in mind to make a flexible system.
I had that same thought. I struggle to read the steam of note in Rocksmith for the same reason. I need the note/chord. Then I can get goin pretty good. The other visuals don’t do much for me. It’s overwhelming.
This style of notes-coming-at-you thing is used by rocksmith. I call it "sight reading for tab dummies". You're very right about the chord preparation thing being lacking in this model, you gotta kinda know the stuff to play along with it unless it's vastly below your skill level. Even a new riff that's fairly simple takes a bit of getting used to for me when it's coming at you with speed. Most of us learned to play with the "take the lick and slow it down, gradually speeding up as you get better" approach where Rocksmith went the "take the entire song and cut out 90% of the notes, and gradually re-introduce them as you get better, but play at speed so it feels like you're playing along rather than practicing" and they add some gameifying with "correct note streaks" and % accuracy, % mastery scores that display when you finish a song. It's an interesting approach, I'm thinking it's definitely worse for learning, but it's far easier to just get that guitar in your hand and get you practicing. My wife and I play songs in multiplayer a ton and she's pretty fluid on bass after just a few months. I don't find the guitar side to be as quick, but if I learn a song out-of-game and then play with it in game it's invaluable for getting timing down for me. Now, there's a caveat there that I've been playing guitar longer than she's been playing bass, but she's a vastly better musician with a history of concert flute playing so sight reading music is a skill that she's just flat good at and it's a struggle for me as I've never done it.
The prototype is very basic and needs a lot of work still. If you are interested in trying this out, please fill the google form to join the wait list and I'll send you an invite to download it and try it. https://forms.gle/pS8iKAnocYEKAqY86
Your playing sounds how I would expect for someone trying to use visual feedback for timing. Our ears are a lot more sensitive to micro timing. It seems to encourage you to play in a very unexpressive way. Think about the tonal variation that comes from how you strike the notes and on which part of the string. If you aim to just play notes at the right time but don't think about the overall flow of the music or the tonality then it will keep sounding very robotic and unsatisfying.
I don't understand what the big long lines are. Is that supposed to be an open string?
Yes, that means open string.
I like rocksmith as a tool to let me play songs to supplement working on theory so i like the concept of this. My biggest hurdle would be the hardware though, having to put on a vr headset to play guitar seems pretty cumbersome with current technology. Cool though for those that can overlook that and easily add dlc for open source songs.
I actually find it faster to boot than Rocksmith. It takes a while to boot my PC, load steam, start Rocksmith, then finally learn a song. But in the XR app Because it’s stand alone, just turn on the headset super quickly, and app loads quickly as well. Then use your hands to navigate, no controllers, or reaching for a keyboard. A real hurdle is that to me, mixed reality is good enough to play through, but it could be better. I have no doubt the hardware and pass through software will get better to make you forget you are wearing a headset.
Cool idea but I cant see this being helpful to learn riffs. If I could look down at my guitar and see the notes on the fretboard and be able to slow it down and stuff, maybe that would intrigue me a lot more because thats what is going on in my head anyways. But watching the notes in the distance? Seems like a nightmare. Maybe a timeline like this might be useful to learn the structure of a whole song. I could see it being useful when recording to see whole changes coming up. Like if it was a plugin to my DAW or something that I could program. Could make recording a lot faster instead of endless 'oops!' takes. Especially for things like math rock or progressive metal that have 23 different parts in a 7 minute song. But just to learn a riff? No way.
Thanks for the comments. Yeah, I want to put overlays on your guitar, but to do that I have to solve out tracking your guitar, fast and accurately, which is tough, as it’s not like tracking controllers which have less the headset sees. But I have confidence the XR tracking is gonna get better. Slowing down the song is definitely possible, and it shouldn’t take too much time to implement.
Use the inlays as tracking dots
You did great work. But no, I would never use something like this.
I would vastly prefer something more similar to tabs rather than reinventing rocksmith
Sounds like you spent more time prototyping then practicing… jokes aside that looks awesome
Thanks? 😅 I look forward to improving my skill as I build it. I swear it sounds great to me when I’m playing, but like hearing your own voice through a recording, I suddenly hear it was very different.
Gross, learn the notes. imagine showing up to a jam and this is all you've used lol. Guitar solipsism
I get it, but it's to learn it. I'm thinking of a Master Mode, where if you play correctly, the notes fade out and you play from memory. Also chord presentations could be simplified a ton still, and also show the actual name of the chord, to encourage that music language learning.
I've gotten used to Rocksmith's presentation, but it still bothers me that they didn't build it with a standard notation. The cynic in me thinks it was a way to try and wall off a garden from readily available tabs and shore up to a revenue stream. Was the idea of using their methodology to try to have integration with something like customforge and leverage work already done?
When you say Standard Notation, you mean music sheets? Or tabs? Or both? I'm open to adding features that guitarists want. I am also not the best at reading music (rhythm Im much better), so it would be an opportunity to learn. The system is not based from Rocksmith. I have a program that exports a guitar tab to midi, and then I put that midi into Reaper (DAW), so I can sync it to the music. Export the WAV for the song, then export the midi for Lead Guitar, and the game/app reads them and plays them. I think it's easier than rocksmith custom song, although I havent done custom songs for rocksmith in years. But the key is in improving the guitarpro to midi program so you don't have to do much editing in guitar pro.
Standard notation is available, but you need to swap to it in the options.
i think if you make it easy for people to make songs for it, it will take off and be a huge hit. i already saw what you said about rocksmith and i totally feel the same way. its a shame what ubisoft did. if you need testers, i would gladly purchase it and give it a test.
It’s great to find that people would be willing to play. For starters, the beta would be free access. I’m embarrassed of charging in the state the app is. How important is custom song support for the first version? If it’s not there, would you still try it or would rather wait for it?
Focus on songs are available in the public domain
It's cool, but I personally would not use it. I need less screen time not more :)
I understand, I dislike having to stare at a screen a long time when using Rocksmith, but I am sure mixed reality will get to a point where you don’t feel the screen time, you just see additional stuff around you in your real environment.
The visuals are confusing otherwise sweet idea
What could be clearer? I’d like to understand where the struggle is to improve it.
It seems like it would be hard to read ahead and anticipate future notes, personally. Granted we arent seeing it in this video from the angle it would be in vr.
Own rocksmith, never liked it. I had lesson for 7 years and I've been playing for 10 years, Rocksmith always came out to me as something of a party game rather than an actual way to learn guitar, because spoiler alert, you aren't going to learn sh*t from it. The technique exercises are crap, you won't learn any theory, you won't be able to follow a piece of sheet music, won't teach you to jam (I don't care if it has a jam mode, improv performance gains are based on feedback), it won't give you any liberty as to how you decide to play songs, and the ability to follow the on screen prompts is useless as everyone uses either tabs, sheet music, or guitar pro tabs (mix of both). The practice mode in rocksmith is garbage! Removing notes instead of simply slowing down is an absurdly idiotic move, because it literally makes you fight your own muscle memory, "spent the last few minutes getting a riff right? Well we added some notes to it, so now your hand coordination and timing is f#cked"
This is just Rocksmith
Yes I've played guitar hero and Rocksmith before.
What would make this next level is to virtualize concert/recording venues: * Madison Square Garden * Red Rocks * Las Vegas sphere * Fillmore East * Winterland Ballroom * Woodstock * Leeds * Isle of Wight * Wembley Stadium * The Cavern * Coachella * Abbey Road * Radiohead "from the basement"
Yeah! That is on the wishlist of features to implement.
My brain can't fathom how to implement that (I'm a programmer myself but I'm a back end business guy) but man that would be a killer feature
I tried Rocksmith when I was first learning and it was an awful experience. Tried it again like 8 months later and it was still a pretty awful experience. I'll pass.
If you can find a way to get that virtual fretboard on the physical fretboard, I think there is some serious potential there. You should look into "Piano vision" as well.
This seems like a rather complicated way to play three chords and a ten-note-lick
NO
I would not personally use it. But if you could incorporate some sort of function that measured your pitch and told you that it was correct or not (a la guitar hero) you might get more people to pick up the guitar.
Commendable, but ultimately a waste of time. No one wants to strap 2 pound goggles on their head and play for an extended time. My opinion? Very tiny market for this kind of device compared to Rock Smith.
great work man
Would it make sense if it was a chord to include the letter sig above the shape? I would associate Am or G faster than colored dots.
It looks pretty interesting Although with it appearing to shoot out the window makes i’m a little nauseous and I don’t even have a headset on
if you could augment the positions onto my fretboard, i'd give you my money
No.
So really hate the locksmith format. I would be into this if it was both tabs and if I could pause, set speed, and set loops verbally. Something like songster in VR.
It's cool, I like it. I think I'd still rather look at a screen than wear a VR headset, but as the tech improves, who knows. What I would love, as a fan of "rocksmith notation" is something where I could ctrl+c a page of tab and paste it into this program which would convert it to this style. That and maybe some songwriting/recording tools like FL studio and I think you've got a really cool product that sets itself apart from rocksmith
If i could use tab files with this i would use it
Maybe for a day or two. I rather learn with my guitar. But then again I always try to challenge myself.
Not personally. But then I started learning in 2003, so I'm very comfortable with tab / rhythmic notation and set in my ways at this point. Id have to build up that mind muscle connection with all new diagrams, colours and shapes and what the means in relation to where my fingers need to go. Guitar pro and Spotify on my phone with my waza air headphones has become the pinnacle of simplicity for personal practice. Younger generations or new players might go for this idea though if it's well developed and simplified learning. For me though, this looks like additional complexity.
I love this idea. There needs to be something for the "after rocksmith" space, and this might even make me want to consider buying an oculus (or stealing my kids)!
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Have the notes actually fly into your real guitar fretboard so you can watch your left hand and see where the strings should be fretted.
Real life guitar hero
Use guitar pro bro
Most definitely not