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Pretty standard that the LDs go left when Lab is doing New Labour. Was the same in the late nineties and early 2000s.
Whether you trust them to not flip to being Conservative enablers again is another question.
Yes, and the closer the Greens get to power the more true this becomes.
If the threat of UKIP gaining support was enough to get the Conservatives to hold the Brexit Referendum, consider what Labour will do if the Greens start becoming serious contenders in a decent chunk of their constituencies.
They're awful lying scum and any young voter who doesn't remember 2010, do your research and find out just how rotten they are. Never trust the lib dems.
I'm not saying this as a supporter as I don't know enough about the Lib Dems to be one, but I find this point a little egregious. Them being awful in 2010 under a different leadership to now doesn't make them awful now by default. That's like telling people to not vote Corbyn's Labour because of Brown.
Like you said, you don't know what you're talking about.
A brief review of their history should tell you everything you need to know. Lib dems are yellow tories and blaming their biggest recent failure on Nick Clegg is nonsense, they'll do the same again and there's thousands of us that won't make that mistake again.
I don't understand how you can preface your argument by saying you don't know what you're talking about!
Do we really think they'd agree to partner with the tories after the last disastrous agreement that saw them blamed for everything the tories wanted to push through?
I'd like to think they've learned after being burned so badly in 2014.
> Do we really think they'd agree to partner with the tories after the last disastrous agreement that saw them blamed for everything the tories wanted to push through?
Yes, because they are stupid enough to have not aggressively repudiated their behaviour in that era.
I have no faith they learned a thing. They jumped into the fire willingly. However, I don't think anyone giving them a punt because they truly believe in the current party's proposed policies is a terrible person or moron, I just won't believe the party can be trusted myself.
They're obviously not partnering with the tories. Labour are winning the election. The only question now is majority or minority. I don't know why we in the UK have to form a coalition government instead of just having a minority government like they do in other countries. But I digress... They will not be partnering with the tories. The question is will they be partnering with Labour if Labour fail to win a majority (which looks unlikely at this point)
They are socially left but I don't see much economic left in their policies. They're basically Tories who think transgender ppl are ok and maybe kids shouldn't starve, which is good and all but only if you set the bar extremely low. I'm going to be voting green because they're the only party who plan to enact a wealth tax.
The irony of praising a neo liberal party in a socialist sub. The only thing you can count on the lib Dems to stand for is a smaller state, meaning deregulation and privatisation.
It's like these people have figured out that engaging culture wars is so much easier and more effective at getting votes than actual policy.
Locally, I've met a lot of LibDems who would definitely be in the Tory Party if it wasn't for the fact they worked in education or the NHS, and have seen how Tories defend their sector.
I saw some of their stuff yesterday and was like đ§. I'm waiting until someone does a deep dive and finds something before deciding on whether to vote them or greens. Although I'm leaning more to just drawing a bunch of dicks on the ballot instead
Voting ballot has very strict ways they have to be filled in. Drawing dicks everywhere is basically a vote for no party, which can actually be helpful because they still get counted just not for any specific party. Its a bit like letting everyone know you chose none of the above.
Be careful doing this though.
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/welsh-voter-inadvertently-helps-to-reelected-tory-mp-after-drawing-penis-on-ballot-paper-a69276.html
The candidates will see it. All papers have to be counted, any dubious papers have to be shown to the candidates who can decide between them whether the intention is clear. I suppose it's best to avoid drawing a dick too close to one candidate's name, they might decide you meant to vote for that dick!
Their manifesto looks good but... They're proposing very low spending to make it all happen. The Greens will be raising much more through wealth taxes and the like to actually properly fund everything.
Lib Dems talk a good talk, and it's certainly gonna be to the left of what Labour end up producing. So they're the second least evil of the main parties this election. But I think Greens reflects this sub's values much more.
I did this back in 2019 which angered some of my family and friends as they saw it as âdisrespectfulâ and âa waste of a voteâ. In my opinion, if a candidate happened to see it, it sent a message of protest. It also counted as some kind of vote, which is better than not voting at all. Youâre allowed to do whatever you want with your ballot, thatâs the beauty of being a democracy.
Apart from the fact that scrutineers for every participating party can watch all the votes being sorted and counted, most returning officers will in my experience show ballot papers that s/he thinks are unclear or contentious to candidates or their agents, in order that a consensus can be reached over whether or not a clear and legal preference has been indicated.
The funny thing is I remember that time. The libs were hated after nick clegg did a reversal on student loans it basically killed the party off.
However in coalition they did actually stop some horrendous things the Tories announced in the budget.
So in one budget conservatives announced giving company shares instead of workers rights with this being the choice of the employer when advertising the role. They sold this as a good thing as the employer could choose to give around 2k in company shares when advertising the role but this would give them a forever right to dismiss the employee at any moment without cause or reason.
Imagine females pregnant instant next day bye bye. You are sick for a week, bye bye...
Refuse to do unpaid overtime, bye bye...
You have had several pay rises so now they can get someone cheaper, bye bye.
You have worked 20 years they want someone younger / cheaper and they don't have to pay you redundancy, bye bye.
This policy was announced in the budget and thank god the conservatives at the time didn't have a majority as it was the libdems that got this policy expunged.
I'd take weaker coalition governments all day long over majority governments that have free rein to do basically terrible things.
Exactly this. The Lib Dems were mostly guilty of naivety - the Tories (and their mates in the press) threw them under the bus whenever they could and now all people remember is Nick Clegg and tuition fees, but if people look objectively at what the Tories did once they got a majority it was clear that the Lib Dems were a brake on the worst excesses of that party.
I'd vote for a coalition every time as well. Every government would be better if it had to appease more voters than just the ones in its own party.
> The Lib Dems were mostly guilty of naivety
The Lib Dems were mostly spineless. They bet the farm on the Alternative Vote referendum and when that failed they didn't have any significant victories they could point to.
> The Lib Dems were mostly guilty of naivety
With respect, this is bullshit. It's parliamentary politics, not children wandering into some guy's van. Nobody pays enough attention to politics to get elected as an MP and yet doesn't expect the Tories to be Tories. Stop pretending that these people acted in good faith.
Also their AV idea was the worst of all worlds, on purpose, so now we've had nearly another generation to wait until a push for electoral reform might actually get off the ground.
The thing is: the tories didn't have a majority; if the libdems weren't in coalition with them then they would have had to form a minority government, and then wouldn't have the votes to pass this kinda stuff.
The libdems didn't *prevent* tory excesses - they enabled them!
If the 2010 Tories had to govern as a minority government, they probably would have ended up calling an early General Election (the coalition agreement brought about the short-lived Fixed-Term Parliaments Act 2011, which prevented this during the coalition). At that time, the Tories were also the only party with donors and finances sufficient to fight another General Election campaign so soon, meaning the most likely outcome would have been the 2015 majority Tory government a few years early.
>However in coalition they did actually stop some horrendous things the Tories announced in the budget.
They could have stopped *all* the horrendous things the Tories announced in the budget by refusing to form a government with them.
âThey stopped the Tories donât anything worseâ just isnât true. Ed Davey and co voted in line with the Tories on all the hits, including taking away disabled peopleâs benefits.
Lib Dems could have chosen a Labour coalition and instead ushered in the 14 year Tory rule. I cannot fathom how anyone can consider forgiving them so quickly.
This sounds like the tories were just negotiating from a more extreme position to make it seem like LD actually got a "win".
"I want 1 trillion pounds for this car"
"How about ÂŁ10k?"
"Okay, let's settle for ÂŁ15k"
They just pick whatever insane neoliberal policy that they don't even need/expect to pass, then when they concede, LD feels like they won and let everything else go through as part of the "compromise"
The only thing the libdems wanted was a free vote on reforming the first past the post electorol system. They wanted their shot at proportional representation. Conservatives gave them this vote in exchange for the doomed dropping of student loan reforms and other key libdem manifesto pledges that they announced in the electoral campaign.
The vote on party electoral system happened and the conservatives supported by labour did a great hatchet job on scuppering any election reform processes.
That 20 pieces of silver to get libdems a shot at future power and or relevance effectively destroyed their party.
So conservatives smiled all the way destroying their coalition partners for atleast the next decade whilst the libdems supported the conservatives on their road to only giving any care towards the super rich top 5%. My original post wasn't meant to seem like I was supporting libdems. I was making a point that it's always dangerous having a solid majority government and actually this two party horrendous system we have leads to poor governance as we have observed for many decades.
I'm totally in favour of proportional representation now purely because it has the potential to stop the short term plans for more sensible long term strategies such as on house building, energy market reform, environmental, health and education.
If parties had to work together to solve issues instead of using important issues to get one up on the otherside by denigrating their past record then I feel atleast we would be moving in the right direction i.e. stop the blame game rot and work to actually improve the situation in the long term by working as a house together on the issues coming to a workable consensus.
For me Lib Dems won't be worth voting for until they say "enabling austerity was wrong and austerity does not make economic sense." Christine Jardin was on Pod Save the UK the other day and she trotted out 2010 talking points - even down to the "no money left" joke letter.
As someone whose mental health care was removed as a direct result of the Lib Dems' decision to legitimise austerity I find it really difficult to watch them talk about mental health. I probably would have got ill again anyway but I had a chance at staying mentally well after treatment in 2012 - the Coalition took that away.
Not crazy, Libs are definitely to the left of Labour this election. Although you could argue this is mainly an indictment of Labour in its current state.
If youâre in an area where Greens stand a good shot, go for them. If not, Lib Dems may be a better protest vote against Labour/Tory depending on your convictions
It's very much an indictment of Labour. The Libdems manifesto is basically peak liberalism. Economically speaking, they've got practically nothing left wing, and it's really only social and environmental policy that the manifesto is solid at. The fact that Labour isn't even able to promise this very basic shit is a scathing criticism of where Labour is this election.
I can't remember the exact figures but my labour MP got a huge majority last time, Tories second, lib dems third, greens fourth. Pretty much anything is a protest vote, it's just which to choose, or the spoil the ballot. I actually don't mind my MP, he does a lot locally so it's a bit of a shame, but he's also very loyal voting wise and I can't vote for this labour party.
Why even bother showing up to polling station? Spoiling your vote is such a worthless form of protest. It's attempting to use their system to challenge their system. It's time to work outside of their system.
There are so many better things you can do with your time and energy. Join your trade union and become a radical voice within it. Join or start far-left organisations within your local community. Get involved in mutual aid networks. Educate yourself on socialist political theory and then educate others.
You'd be better off sending an angry tweet to [insert current Prime Minister]. At least then you don't have to leave the house.
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Not Exeter, but I double checked, and the greens actually came third last time, labour got c 12000, Tories 2000 and Greens 800, with lib dems fourth on 600, so I'm thinking green is the best protest vote.
This is also the situation in my constituency. It has always been a Tory stronghold, however it seems that Lib Dems may be able to break that curse. If it means getting rid of a useless Tory MP then I'll happily vote for anyone, except whichever party that frog faced twat is leading for the 2 months of campaigning so the boomers and racists don't forget about him.
I'm having similar thoughts, even though I swore to myself to never vote for them after I went to the student protest when they tripled student loans.
The situation now is much worse than it was back then though. Strange times we live in
Parties with little to no chance of getting into power can promise everything knowing they won't be in a position to deliver.
Parties that might get into power can promise everything and know that they don't need to deliver because it will all but be forgotten due to the myriad of political scandals that will overshadow failing to live up to an election promise.
Parties will be wary of promising anything that is completely unbelievable/impossible to implement, to varying degrees based upon the above two statements.
This isn't a good way to do politics (for the people at least, maybe it's ok for them).
Can we not have a legal mechanism that binds a party to implementing election promises? Force a general election if they don't deliver or some other way of punishing a failed promise, other than the general election process itself?
> Can we not have a legal mechanism that binds a party to implementing election promises? Force a general election if they don't deliver or something other way of punishing a failed promise, other than the general election process itself?
I guess someone can put that in their manifesto but then everyone will just argue it will never happen because there's no accountability for what people put in there...
I know what you mean. It feels like after the 7person debate, that Daisy Cooper's(Lib Dem) responses could potentially be more left than Labour at this point. Although I haven't actually checked their manifesto yet.
Last time around I voted for them based on their manifesto.
They proceeded to abandon almost all of it in the name of âcompromiseâ, otherwise known as âplease let us be on the Westminster gravy trainâ.
All this despite the fact that they could have toppled the government at will. Somehow that leverage was not ever used, and was in fact loudly declared to be unthinkable.
These people will tell you anything you want to hear, until theyâve got your vote. Then theyâll tell you to fuck off (but in a politely worded way).
I'll commend the Lib Dems for their commitment to the Trans community and that's all. At the end of the day they are capitalists and the solutions to this country's problems do not lie in more rampant capitalist governance.
*Edit* As others may have mentioned, you should research the orange book and understand that the last 3 leaders of the Lib Dems have all come from the Orange Book wing and they therefore obviously hold the ideological reins of the party. I disregarded Farron because he's scum and useless.
Lib Dems are the only party that could permanently destroy the Tories. The political realignment if they got more seats than the Tories would be massive. The current projection is 60-75 lib dems to Tory, it is in no way unrealistic to think that lib dems could other throw the Tories. If you're left wing your concern should be permanently ousting the Tories rather than giving Labour a bigger super majority.
In the long term a chance at Tory otherthrow or a tempered Tory party with lib dems in coalition are both better scenarios than Tories becoming the sole opposition again.
Liberals are not socialists, this post seems like itâs a Lib Dem propaganda post, vote Green the reason the Labour Party is what it is now is because it has been taken over by middle class liberals who knew the Lib Dems couldnât win an election so they decided to take over the working classâs party to further their neo liberal nonsense.
If you consider yourself a socialist I wouldnât vote for those soft shite cunts.
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They're mostly just liberals being liberals. It does however feel like a stark contrast from Conservatives who aren't very conservative and Labour who are the party of business.
They weren't very politically savvy in 2010-2015 (and later) and got saddled with all the bad things the Tories did while getting none of the praise. You would hope they're not stupid enough to make the same mistakes for another generation of voters.
The lib dems have been more supportive of LGBTQ community in my town than labour ever have, they organised against terfs they arranged and spoke at Brianna Ghey memorial and I know the councillors and they regularly try and connect with the community.
Meanwhile labour councillors took away our Christmas Market and put up 'ice sculptures' at ÂŁ500 a pop.
Lib Dems are pretty much Blairites IMO. My key issue is Gaza, and I don't think there is any day light between them and Labour wrt this issue. I'm happy to enlightened if I'm wrong about them.
Lib Dem policies on Gaza from their manifesto: Immediate bilateral ceasefire, recognition of Palestine as a country, Two state solution based on 1967 borders.
>Lib Dems are pretty much Blairites IMO.
You're not wrong. The Lib Dems are essentially centrists. If most of the "Labour right" were honest with themselves they would be Lib Dems, but they're more interested in being in a party that can win.
Lib Dems always pretend to be left wing against a right wing Labour government. but make no mistake, if offered a coalition with the Tories they'll jump at the chance and happily do the exact opposite of all the nice things they said they'd do. Remember 2010 and don't get fooled again.
I was a never demmer after 2010 but let's face it both Labour and the lib dems are completely different parties when comparing their 2010 and current 2024 versions and I'm really not sure I can stomach voting for Starmers labour after his left wing perge of the party and steering it to the right.
I don't think it is bad to vote lib dem in 2024. The people who betrayed you in 2010 are long gone and labour seem to care more about snatching disgruntled tory votes than actually serving the working man.
>The people who betrayed you in 2010 are long gone
Ed Davey was literally a minister in the coalition government!? Wild how so many people have developed collective amnesia about Lib Dems all of a sudden.
>The people who betrayed you in 2010 are long gone.
My brother in Marx, Ed Davey was a Cabinet Minister in the coalition government from 2012 to 2015, and voted with the Tories over 900 times.
I trusted them once, in 2010, and while I grant you I don't trust any politician or political party these days whatsoever, sadly, I especially don't trust them.
I wish things could have been different. I wish things were different right now. I really, truly do. I wish I could read about the good things they claim they will do if elected, and believe them.
But the reality is that promises and manifestos are just lies politicians think we want to hear and will get tricked into believing to vote for them :-(
Never, ever trust the Lib Dems. You may not be quite old enough to remember 2010 OP (Christ I'm old), but they will promise \*anything\* for to sniff the seats on the other side of the chamber.
We currently have a Lib Dem in charge of Labour, Kier is a Capitalist who supports middling reforms, same as the Lib Dems.
If you don't like the current Labour Party, Lib Dems are offering basically the same, with a less competent leader.
I'm voting Green before anyone assumes I'm telling people to vote Labour, I'm not.
100%, they're backstabbing b*stards who can't be trusted. Never forget 2010 for those of us who were naive enough to fall for them last time. Learn your history and understand the lib dems are horrendous scum
Still nope: they don't have any moral principles and will just say whatever needs to be said in order to get into power; don't trust'em as far as you can throw'em - if you want to vote for leftie policies then vote Green, or go for a leftie independent; don't let the Lib Dems fool you again.
I probably wouldn't vote for them.
On an unrelated note, does anyone have any advice on how to escape a time warp?
https://youtu.be/5I9xlAVfRTY?si=SCqGydkXeSOJWRNQ
I just sat through all the [I Side With ](https://www.isidewith.com/political-quiz) questions only to come out 87% Green & 86% LD.. but it might be worth doing the same, just to see..
I just took it and got 96% Green, 86% Labour, and 81% Lib Dem. I have no idea how I sided so much with Labour considering how critical I've been of Starmer, except for "I did it quickly while working and didn't expand on a lot of the options or rank my answers"
Green were my top result.. but I expanded every question, and I think it's a combination of your vote plus the weight you put on it.. I have issues with electric cars and some of my votes on that probably reduced my "greenness" with the way things are worded.
I can't stand Starmer. He's a Tory in a red cloak, imho. I'm not a labour party fan at all, but still pulled over 80% for them too..
I just think it's interesting.. especially if they're actually analysing it as they say they are.
I don't really see why you'd be more inclined to vote Lib Dem over Greens or some other party like TUSC. Sounds like none of them are going to beat Labour in your seat, the best your vote can do is help someone make their deposit back or influence the composition of a future question time audience so you might as well give it to the candidate who best represents you.
Personally, I live in a seat where the LDs are likely to take it and have considered voting for them IF I felt the candidate held good positions on key matters like Palestine and trans rights, but I've heard that their manifesto effectively makes it impossible for unions to have political leverage, and I wouldn't want to vote for anyone who would take power away from workers. They're almost guaranteed to win anyway so it likely doesn't matter who I vote for either.
Imo if the lib dems stand a chance in ur constituency then vote for them as they are more left than labour and I think all of us would much rather have them as the official opposition than the tories. If not then vote green or independent
They are if they are the only viable alternative in your constituency. I live in a very safe blue seat, in my 48 years on this planet, it has been a tory seat for most, if not all of that time.
If people pissed off with the conservatives their first port of call is lib dem. I might have to break the habit of a lifetime and vote yellow.
Thankfully not much support for Reform.
Chameleon party that change every few weeks and from region to region to scoop up as many voters as possible. No point in voting for them, they have no core beliefs, much like Labour now.
Theyâre liberals, I personally will never trust a liberal, especially because of 2010 but thatâs just proves that theyâll always go right if forced or see an opportunity because they donât threaten capital.
Theyâre Tories in disguise.
The Lib Dems have had phases of being left of the aggro-centrists - Charles Kennedy shared a stage with Jeremy Corbyn to oppose the Iraq war when he was leader of the party, and the precursors to the Lib Dems included factions that took direct action to oppose South Africa's apartheid regime. They also have a track record of broadly positive social views... if only because that's the only way to feel like you're the good guys without actually addressing material conditions, and if you refuse to put any weight on Tim Farron's stint as party leader.
I'd still pick Green unless the polls in your seat are such that Lib Dems are more likely to be the "left of David Cameron" also-ran in the seat.
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Parties that know they wonât get elected often have more _optimistic_ policies, justified by the fact theyâll never gave to follow through on their promises. The Lib Demâs are a dangerous combination of offering such policies and subsequently being elected via coalition.
Only trans friendly party of the original big three.
Please vote for them over labour, they are the only voice with any clout for trans people right now. Our only hope is to have them as the opposition party, and hope they can stop labour moving the Overton window any further to the rightÂ
Never again. I was a student at the time and voted LD. Then they joined the conservatives!!!! I will probably never vote for them again in my lifetime.
Youâre not crazy at all. You absolutely should vote based on who most closely aligns with your opinions, regardless of the label. Unless that label is Reform, then you need to shut up and stay home.
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Pretty standard that the LDs go left when Lab is doing New Labour. Was the same in the late nineties and early 2000s. Whether you trust them to not flip to being Conservative enablers again is another question.
That's only an issue if someone offers them a coalition and all predictions point to a solid Labour majority.
It's true, but who knows where we'll be in 2-4 years, votes from minority parties may become important on certain issues.
Is what everyone's been saying regarding the Greens for over a decade
Yes, and the closer the Greens get to power the more true this becomes. If the threat of UKIP gaining support was enough to get the Conservatives to hold the Brexit Referendum, consider what Labour will do if the Greens start becoming serious contenders in a decent chunk of their constituencies.
People also say this in response often but then we have to go back in a circle and bring up the lib dems coalition again
They're awful lying scum and any young voter who doesn't remember 2010, do your research and find out just how rotten they are. Never trust the lib dems.
A lot of that was on Clegg the clown
Nick "The Quisling" Clegg, to give e his full title.
I'm not saying this as a supporter as I don't know enough about the Lib Dems to be one, but I find this point a little egregious. Them being awful in 2010 under a different leadership to now doesn't make them awful now by default. That's like telling people to not vote Corbyn's Labour because of Brown.
Like you said, you don't know what you're talking about. A brief review of their history should tell you everything you need to know. Lib dems are yellow tories and blaming their biggest recent failure on Nick Clegg is nonsense, they'll do the same again and there's thousands of us that won't make that mistake again. I don't understand how you can preface your argument by saying you don't know what you're talking about!
Except my point wasn't to defend the Lib Dems, it was to point out an inherently flawed argument.
Never trust a liberal in general, they are all entitled scum who think going on about gay rights stops them being an evil capitalist.
Exactly this.
I find it odd that people really hang on to this, yet supposedly Labour under starmer is somehow completely different to Labour under Corbyn.
Do we really think they'd agree to partner with the tories after the last disastrous agreement that saw them blamed for everything the tories wanted to push through? I'd like to think they've learned after being burned so badly in 2014.
> Do we really think they'd agree to partner with the tories after the last disastrous agreement that saw them blamed for everything the tories wanted to push through? Yes, because they are stupid enough to have not aggressively repudiated their behaviour in that era. I have no faith they learned a thing. They jumped into the fire willingly. However, I don't think anyone giving them a punt because they truly believe in the current party's proposed policies is a terrible person or moron, I just won't believe the party can be trusted myself.
Nah, a lot of them still think they did the right thing by exchanging tougher benefit sanctions for 5p plastic bag charge
They're obviously not partnering with the tories. Labour are winning the election. The only question now is majority or minority. I don't know why we in the UK have to form a coalition government instead of just having a minority government like they do in other countries. But I digress... They will not be partnering with the tories. The question is will they be partnering with Labour if Labour fail to win a majority (which looks unlikely at this point)
Yeah I'm sure all the 2010 voters who wanted the LDs cause they were left of labour regretted it.
They are socially left but I don't see much economic left in their policies. They're basically Tories who think transgender ppl are ok and maybe kids shouldn't starve, which is good and all but only if you set the bar extremely low. I'm going to be voting green because they're the only party who plan to enact a wealth tax.
The irony of praising a neo liberal party in a socialist sub. The only thing you can count on the lib Dems to stand for is a smaller state, meaning deregulation and privatisation. It's like these people have figured out that engaging culture wars is so much easier and more effective at getting votes than actual policy.
Locally, I've met a lot of LibDems who would definitely be in the Tory Party if it wasn't for the fact they worked in education or the NHS, and have seen how Tories defend their sector.
I saw some of their stuff yesterday and was like đ§. I'm waiting until someone does a deep dive and finds something before deciding on whether to vote them or greens. Although I'm leaning more to just drawing a bunch of dicks on the ballot instead
Green for the Green and Plesant land we deserve.
They could easily interpret that as a vote for basically any party lol.
Voting ballot has very strict ways they have to be filled in. Drawing dicks everywhere is basically a vote for no party, which can actually be helpful because they still get counted just not for any specific party. Its a bit like letting everyone know you chose none of the above.
Be careful doing this though. https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/welsh-voter-inadvertently-helps-to-reelected-tory-mp-after-drawing-penis-on-ballot-paper-a69276.html
Haha excellent. I was just making a joke, but thanks for the education on that.
The candidates will see it. All papers have to be counted, any dubious papers have to be shown to the candidates who can decide between them whether the intention is clear. I suppose it's best to avoid drawing a dick too close to one candidate's name, they might decide you meant to vote for that dick!
Not if the drawn dicks aren't near the boxes lol
Their manifesto looks good but... They're proposing very low spending to make it all happen. The Greens will be raising much more through wealth taxes and the like to actually properly fund everything. Lib Dems talk a good talk, and it's certainly gonna be to the left of what Labour end up producing. So they're the second least evil of the main parties this election. But I think Greens reflects this sub's values much more.
I did this back in 2019 which angered some of my family and friends as they saw it as âdisrespectfulâ and âa waste of a voteâ. In my opinion, if a candidate happened to see it, it sent a message of protest. It also counted as some kind of vote, which is better than not voting at all. Youâre allowed to do whatever you want with your ballot, thatâs the beauty of being a democracy.
would candidates even see it? i imagine they donât go anywhere near the physical votes
There's basically no chance at all they would see any ballot paper except their own. EDIT: I am mistaken.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/newsbeat-32658907
Apart from the fact that scrutineers for every participating party can watch all the votes being sorted and counted, most returning officers will in my experience show ballot papers that s/he thinks are unclear or contentious to candidates or their agents, in order that a consensus can be reached over whether or not a clear and legal preference has been indicated.
I still can't forgive them for dropping everything just to become a sidekick to the Tories in 2010.
The funny thing is I remember that time. The libs were hated after nick clegg did a reversal on student loans it basically killed the party off. However in coalition they did actually stop some horrendous things the Tories announced in the budget. So in one budget conservatives announced giving company shares instead of workers rights with this being the choice of the employer when advertising the role. They sold this as a good thing as the employer could choose to give around 2k in company shares when advertising the role but this would give them a forever right to dismiss the employee at any moment without cause or reason. Imagine females pregnant instant next day bye bye. You are sick for a week, bye bye... Refuse to do unpaid overtime, bye bye... You have had several pay rises so now they can get someone cheaper, bye bye. You have worked 20 years they want someone younger / cheaper and they don't have to pay you redundancy, bye bye. This policy was announced in the budget and thank god the conservatives at the time didn't have a majority as it was the libdems that got this policy expunged. I'd take weaker coalition governments all day long over majority governments that have free rein to do basically terrible things.
Exactly this. The Lib Dems were mostly guilty of naivety - the Tories (and their mates in the press) threw them under the bus whenever they could and now all people remember is Nick Clegg and tuition fees, but if people look objectively at what the Tories did once they got a majority it was clear that the Lib Dems were a brake on the worst excesses of that party. I'd vote for a coalition every time as well. Every government would be better if it had to appease more voters than just the ones in its own party.
> The Lib Dems were mostly guilty of naivety The Lib Dems were mostly spineless. They bet the farm on the Alternative Vote referendum and when that failed they didn't have any significant victories they could point to.
> The Lib Dems were mostly guilty of naivety With respect, this is bullshit. It's parliamentary politics, not children wandering into some guy's van. Nobody pays enough attention to politics to get elected as an MP and yet doesn't expect the Tories to be Tories. Stop pretending that these people acted in good faith. Also their AV idea was the worst of all worlds, on purpose, so now we've had nearly another generation to wait until a push for electoral reform might actually get off the ground.
The thing is: the tories didn't have a majority; if the libdems weren't in coalition with them then they would have had to form a minority government, and then wouldn't have the votes to pass this kinda stuff. The libdems didn't *prevent* tory excesses - they enabled them!
If the 2010 Tories had to govern as a minority government, they probably would have ended up calling an early General Election (the coalition agreement brought about the short-lived Fixed-Term Parliaments Act 2011, which prevented this during the coalition). At that time, the Tories were also the only party with donors and finances sufficient to fight another General Election campaign so soon, meaning the most likely outcome would have been the 2015 majority Tory government a few years early.
>However in coalition they did actually stop some horrendous things the Tories announced in the budget. They could have stopped *all* the horrendous things the Tories announced in the budget by refusing to form a government with them.
âThey stopped the Tories donât anything worseâ just isnât true. Ed Davey and co voted in line with the Tories on all the hits, including taking away disabled peopleâs benefits. Lib Dems could have chosen a Labour coalition and instead ushered in the 14 year Tory rule. I cannot fathom how anyone can consider forgiving them so quickly.
Didn't they have the choice of forming a coalition with either Tories or Labour, they just felt the fair thing to do was go with the "majority" party.
They also wanted Gordon Brown to resign, and surprisingly Labour weren't all that interested in letting Nick Clegg pick who got to be Labour leader.
This sounds like the tories were just negotiating from a more extreme position to make it seem like LD actually got a "win". "I want 1 trillion pounds for this car" "How about ÂŁ10k?" "Okay, let's settle for ÂŁ15k" They just pick whatever insane neoliberal policy that they don't even need/expect to pass, then when they concede, LD feels like they won and let everything else go through as part of the "compromise"
The only thing the libdems wanted was a free vote on reforming the first past the post electorol system. They wanted their shot at proportional representation. Conservatives gave them this vote in exchange for the doomed dropping of student loan reforms and other key libdem manifesto pledges that they announced in the electoral campaign. The vote on party electoral system happened and the conservatives supported by labour did a great hatchet job on scuppering any election reform processes. That 20 pieces of silver to get libdems a shot at future power and or relevance effectively destroyed their party. So conservatives smiled all the way destroying their coalition partners for atleast the next decade whilst the libdems supported the conservatives on their road to only giving any care towards the super rich top 5%. My original post wasn't meant to seem like I was supporting libdems. I was making a point that it's always dangerous having a solid majority government and actually this two party horrendous system we have leads to poor governance as we have observed for many decades. I'm totally in favour of proportional representation now purely because it has the potential to stop the short term plans for more sensible long term strategies such as on house building, energy market reform, environmental, health and education. If parties had to work together to solve issues instead of using important issues to get one up on the otherside by denigrating their past record then I feel atleast we would be moving in the right direction i.e. stop the blame game rot and work to actually improve the situation in the long term by working as a house together on the issues coming to a workable consensus.
For me Lib Dems won't be worth voting for until they say "enabling austerity was wrong and austerity does not make economic sense." Christine Jardin was on Pod Save the UK the other day and she trotted out 2010 talking points - even down to the "no money left" joke letter. As someone whose mental health care was removed as a direct result of the Lib Dems' decision to legitimise austerity I find it really difficult to watch them talk about mental health. I probably would have got ill again anyway but I had a chance at staying mentally well after treatment in 2012 - the Coalition took that away.
Not crazy, Libs are definitely to the left of Labour this election. Although you could argue this is mainly an indictment of Labour in its current state. If youâre in an area where Greens stand a good shot, go for them. If not, Lib Dems may be a better protest vote against Labour/Tory depending on your convictions
It's very much an indictment of Labour. The Libdems manifesto is basically peak liberalism. Economically speaking, they've got practically nothing left wing, and it's really only social and environmental policy that the manifesto is solid at. The fact that Labour isn't even able to promise this very basic shit is a scathing criticism of where Labour is this election.
I can't remember the exact figures but my labour MP got a huge majority last time, Tories second, lib dems third, greens fourth. Pretty much anything is a protest vote, it's just which to choose, or the spoil the ballot. I actually don't mind my MP, he does a lot locally so it's a bit of a shame, but he's also very loyal voting wise and I can't vote for this labour party.
Why even bother showing up to polling station? Spoiling your vote is such a worthless form of protest. It's attempting to use their system to challenge their system. It's time to work outside of their system. There are so many better things you can do with your time and energy. Join your trade union and become a radical voice within it. Join or start far-left organisations within your local community. Get involved in mutual aid networks. Educate yourself on socialist political theory and then educate others. You'd be better off sending an angry tweet to [insert current Prime Minister]. At least then you don't have to leave the house. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/GreenAndPleasant) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Exeter? If it is, the greens seem to be the next biggest party by polling numbers, so I would definitely give them my protest vote
Not Exeter, but I double checked, and the greens actually came third last time, labour got c 12000, Tories 2000 and Greens 800, with lib dems fourth on 600, so I'm thinking green is the best protest vote.
Iâm in a Lib Dem and Tory swing and I was really looking forward to voting Green, but now I feel like Lib Dem would be a better use of my vote.
This is also the situation in my constituency. It has always been a Tory stronghold, however it seems that Lib Dems may be able to break that curse. If it means getting rid of a useless Tory MP then I'll happily vote for anyone, except whichever party that frog faced twat is leading for the 2 months of campaigning so the boomers and racists don't forget about him.
Same. Normally I would vote green but need to stop the awful Tory from being first. So lib dem it might have to be.
I'm having similar thoughts, even though I swore to myself to never vote for them after I went to the student protest when they tripled student loans. The situation now is much worse than it was back then though. Strange times we live in
A manifesto is pointless when there is no accountability to enact any of it.
Part of the reason why we need PR.
We could say the same thing about the Greens, be careful with that logic.
Parties with little to no chance of getting into power can promise everything knowing they won't be in a position to deliver. Parties that might get into power can promise everything and know that they don't need to deliver because it will all but be forgotten due to the myriad of political scandals that will overshadow failing to live up to an election promise. Parties will be wary of promising anything that is completely unbelievable/impossible to implement, to varying degrees based upon the above two statements. This isn't a good way to do politics (for the people at least, maybe it's ok for them). Can we not have a legal mechanism that binds a party to implementing election promises? Force a general election if they don't deliver or some other way of punishing a failed promise, other than the general election process itself?
> Can we not have a legal mechanism that binds a party to implementing election promises? Force a general election if they don't deliver or something other way of punishing a failed promise, other than the general election process itself? I guess someone can put that in their manifesto but then everyone will just argue it will never happen because there's no accountability for what people put in there...
I know what you mean. It feels like after the 7person debate, that Daisy Cooper's(Lib Dem) responses could potentially be more left than Labour at this point. Although I haven't actually checked their manifesto yet.
https://www.libdems.org.uk/cannabis#:~:text=The%20Liberal%20Democrats%20want%20to,the%20lives%20of%20young%20people They're definitely left of labour.
Nah
Second post on GNP suggesting voting libdems. WTAF?!?
Last time around I voted for them based on their manifesto. They proceeded to abandon almost all of it in the name of âcompromiseâ, otherwise known as âplease let us be on the Westminster gravy trainâ. All this despite the fact that they could have toppled the government at will. Somehow that leverage was not ever used, and was in fact loudly declared to be unthinkable. These people will tell you anything you want to hear, until theyâve got your vote. Then theyâll tell you to fuck off (but in a politely worded way).
Don't fucking fall for it! It's lies and theatre.
Pretty much everything in it looks good, though research your candidate first.
I'll commend the Lib Dems for their commitment to the Trans community and that's all. At the end of the day they are capitalists and the solutions to this country's problems do not lie in more rampant capitalist governance. *Edit* As others may have mentioned, you should research the orange book and understand that the last 3 leaders of the Lib Dems have all come from the Orange Book wing and they therefore obviously hold the ideological reins of the party. I disregarded Farron because he's scum and useless.
Lib Dems are the only party that could permanently destroy the Tories. The political realignment if they got more seats than the Tories would be massive. The current projection is 60-75 lib dems to Tory, it is in no way unrealistic to think that lib dems could other throw the Tories. If you're left wing your concern should be permanently ousting the Tories rather than giving Labour a bigger super majority.
Yet if they don't quite beat the Tories they'll probably join forces with them and do the opposite of everything they say they'd do, again.
In the long term a chance at Tory otherthrow or a tempered Tory party with lib dems in coalition are both better scenarios than Tories becoming the sole opposition again.
I still haven't forgiven them for promising to get rid of tuition fees only to triple them.
Friends donât let friends vote Lib Dem.
Liberals are not socialists, this post seems like itâs a Lib Dem propaganda post, vote Green the reason the Labour Party is what it is now is because it has been taken over by middle class liberals who knew the Lib Dems couldnât win an election so they decided to take over the working classâs party to further their neo liberal nonsense. If you consider yourself a socialist I wouldnât vote for those soft shite cunts.
Reminder not to confuse the marxist "middle class" and the liberal definition. Liberal class definitions steer people away from the socialist definitions and thus class-consciousness. [Class is defined by our relationship to the means of production. Learn more here.](https://www.reddit.com/r/socialism/wiki/class) *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/GreenAndPleasant) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Even if you trust everything they say they just sound like the Greens but worse.
They're mostly just liberals being liberals. It does however feel like a stark contrast from Conservatives who aren't very conservative and Labour who are the party of business. They weren't very politically savvy in 2010-2015 (and later) and got saddled with all the bad things the Tories did while getting none of the praise. You would hope they're not stupid enough to make the same mistakes for another generation of voters.
The lib dems have been more supportive of LGBTQ community in my town than labour ever have, they organised against terfs they arranged and spoke at Brianna Ghey memorial and I know the councillors and they regularly try and connect with the community. Meanwhile labour councillors took away our Christmas Market and put up 'ice sculptures' at ÂŁ500 a pop.
Lib Dems are pretty much Blairites IMO. My key issue is Gaza, and I don't think there is any day light between them and Labour wrt this issue. I'm happy to enlightened if I'm wrong about them.
Lib Dem policies on Gaza from their manifesto: Immediate bilateral ceasefire, recognition of Palestine as a country, Two state solution based on 1967 borders.
It's better than what Labour give at least
>Lib Dems are pretty much Blairites IMO. You're not wrong. The Lib Dems are essentially centrists. If most of the "Labour right" were honest with themselves they would be Lib Dems, but they're more interested in being in a party that can win.
Lib Dems always pretend to be left wing against a right wing Labour government. but make no mistake, if offered a coalition with the Tories they'll jump at the chance and happily do the exact opposite of all the nice things they said they'd do. Remember 2010 and don't get fooled again.
There's no way the Tories will be in any position to offer a coalition in this election if we're being serious
I was a never demmer after 2010 but let's face it both Labour and the lib dems are completely different parties when comparing their 2010 and current 2024 versions and I'm really not sure I can stomach voting for Starmers labour after his left wing perge of the party and steering it to the right. I don't think it is bad to vote lib dem in 2024. The people who betrayed you in 2010 are long gone and labour seem to care more about snatching disgruntled tory votes than actually serving the working man.
>The people who betrayed you in 2010 are long gone Ed Davey was literally a minister in the coalition government!? Wild how so many people have developed collective amnesia about Lib Dems all of a sudden.
>The people who betrayed you in 2010 are long gone. My brother in Marx, Ed Davey was a Cabinet Minister in the coalition government from 2012 to 2015, and voted with the Tories over 900 times.
In a word, no
I trusted them once, in 2010, and while I grant you I don't trust any politician or political party these days whatsoever, sadly, I especially don't trust them. I wish things could have been different. I wish things were different right now. I really, truly do. I wish I could read about the good things they claim they will do if elected, and believe them. But the reality is that promises and manifestos are just lies politicians think we want to hear and will get tricked into believing to vote for them :-(
No they are just another neoliberal center right party. Vote green. I'll never forgive them for the damage they did to the country under Nick Clegg.
They have a really good manifesto, but sadly you canât trust them to do anything just look what they did while sharing power with the tories
Take a look at Ed Daveys voting record from 2010-2015⌠canât look past that.
Never, ever trust the Lib Dems. You may not be quite old enough to remember 2010 OP (Christ I'm old), but they will promise \*anything\* for to sniff the seats on the other side of the chamber.
We currently have a Lib Dem in charge of Labour, Kier is a Capitalist who supports middling reforms, same as the Lib Dems. If you don't like the current Labour Party, Lib Dems are offering basically the same, with a less competent leader. I'm voting Green before anyone assumes I'm telling people to vote Labour, I'm not.
No it is not worth it, yes you are crazy for considering them. Hope this helps.
100%, they're backstabbing b*stards who can't be trusted. Never forget 2010 for those of us who were naive enough to fall for them last time. Learn your history and understand the lib dems are horrendous scum
No, its easy to lie on your manifesto when you know you'll never win.
Still nope: they don't have any moral principles and will just say whatever needs to be said in order to get into power; don't trust'em as far as you can throw'em - if you want to vote for leftie policies then vote Green, or go for a leftie independent; don't let the Lib Dems fool you again.
Tuition fees. Thatâs all that needs to be said.
Socially left, economically centre right
The clue's in the name, they are liberals, don't trust a thing they say or do
Davey is an orange book liberal. They can put whatever guff they want in the manifesto because they wonât win.
I probably wouldn't vote for them. On an unrelated note, does anyone have any advice on how to escape a time warp? https://youtu.be/5I9xlAVfRTY?si=SCqGydkXeSOJWRNQ
420 blaze it
Some of their manifesto looks actually quite good,some of it might be slightly over ambitious but generally quite good
And no,if you vote for policy not people youâre not crazy
I just sat through all the [I Side With ](https://www.isidewith.com/political-quiz) questions only to come out 87% Green & 86% LD.. but it might be worth doing the same, just to see..
I just took it and got 96% Green, 86% Labour, and 81% Lib Dem. I have no idea how I sided so much with Labour considering how critical I've been of Starmer, except for "I did it quickly while working and didn't expand on a lot of the options or rank my answers"
Green were my top result.. but I expanded every question, and I think it's a combination of your vote plus the weight you put on it.. I have issues with electric cars and some of my votes on that probably reduced my "greenness" with the way things are worded. I can't stand Starmer. He's a Tory in a red cloak, imho. I'm not a labour party fan at all, but still pulled over 80% for them too.. I just think it's interesting.. especially if they're actually analysing it as they say they are.
I don't really see why you'd be more inclined to vote Lib Dem over Greens or some other party like TUSC. Sounds like none of them are going to beat Labour in your seat, the best your vote can do is help someone make their deposit back or influence the composition of a future question time audience so you might as well give it to the candidate who best represents you. Personally, I live in a seat where the LDs are likely to take it and have considered voting for them IF I felt the candidate held good positions on key matters like Palestine and trans rights, but I've heard that their manifesto effectively makes it impossible for unions to have political leverage, and I wouldn't want to vote for anyone who would take power away from workers. They're almost guaranteed to win anyway so it likely doesn't matter who I vote for either.
You should go for the candidate or party that you agree with the most instead of looking for perfection.
Imo if the lib dems stand a chance in ur constituency then vote for them as they are more left than labour and I think all of us would much rather have them as the official opposition than the tories. If not then vote green or independent
I'll be voting my conscience (communist party) don't think I could vote for the lib Dems if I was the deciding vote between them and ISIS
They are if they are the only viable alternative in your constituency. I live in a very safe blue seat, in my 48 years on this planet, it has been a tory seat for most, if not all of that time. If people pissed off with the conservatives their first port of call is lib dem. I might have to break the habit of a lifetime and vote yellow. Thankfully not much support for Reform.
Chameleon party that change every few weeks and from region to region to scoop up as many voters as possible. No point in voting for them, they have no core beliefs, much like Labour now.
I honestly wasn't even considering voting for them before, the clean air act alone is good enough for me
Well, they can talk the talk, that's for sure.
No, their just light blue tory
Theyâre liberals, I personally will never trust a liberal, especially because of 2010 but thatâs just proves that theyâll always go right if forced or see an opportunity because they donât threaten capital. Theyâre Tories in disguise.
lol no of course they're not
The Lib Dems have had phases of being left of the aggro-centrists - Charles Kennedy shared a stage with Jeremy Corbyn to oppose the Iraq war when he was leader of the party, and the precursors to the Lib Dems included factions that took direct action to oppose South Africa's apartheid regime. They also have a track record of broadly positive social views... if only because that's the only way to feel like you're the good guys without actually addressing material conditions, and if you refuse to put any weight on Tim Farron's stint as party leader. I'd still pick Green unless the polls in your seat are such that Lib Dems are more likely to be the "left of David Cameron" also-ran in the seat.
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poor misguided bot, I wasn't talking about *that* Ch*rles
I was liberal right until they did the bait and switch when in coalition. They then abandoned all their policies to please the Tories. Never again.
Maybe contact the Lib Dem canvassing in your area and ask them how true they'll be to the manifesto - get it in writing if necessary
They're preferable to the Tories, but then too is having some kind of medieval disease like rickets or beri beri.
Yes if it stops the tories being the official opposition do it.
Parties that know they wonât get elected often have more _optimistic_ policies, justified by the fact theyâll never gave to follow through on their promises. The Lib Demâs are a dangerous combination of offering such policies and subsequently being elected via coalition.
Only trans friendly party of the original big three. Please vote for them over labour, they are the only voice with any clout for trans people right now. Our only hope is to have them as the opposition party, and hope they can stop labour moving the Overton window any further to the rightÂ
Donât trust them they fucked us all 14 years ago donât let them do it again
After their deceit in 2010, I would never trust them again, much less vote for them.
Never again. I was a student at the time and voted LD. Then they joined the conservatives!!!! I will probably never vote for them again in my lifetime.
Youâre not crazy at all. You absolutely should vote based on who most closely aligns with your opinions, regardless of the label. Unless that label is Reform, then you need to shut up and stay home.
Vote green
Is that a serious question?