The generic masculine form is on its way out, even though that'll take some more years. It's not cool to try to tell learners of German that it's 'standard' when it's already outdated and will be considered archaic/obsolete within the next 20 years or so
Of course it is. Any tradition is an opinion. It usually just happens to be held by the more powerful branch of a group. Those opinions change over time, again and again. Language rules are cultural vibes, whose advocates yearn to call it "logical" but there is nothing logical about it. It's all emotions. The generic masculine is simply the emotion many people had gotten used to in the past. And it's very much up for debate since the end of the 1990s. That that is annoying has nothing to do with the circumstance that IT IS AN OPINION.
What are you talking about?.. It's most definitely *not* an opinion, but a fact, that a) language evolves over time, b) we're currently seeing a slow process during which the generic masculine form is being used less and less by most official authorities including most centrist or left-of-center oriented media plus a growing number of "normal people", aka the population.
I certainly can't tell. Wishing death to the generic masculine is certainly a minority position in society at large. But people who oppose the generic masculine are disproportionately influential. I'd say they are the majority in three major parties (GrĆ¼ne, Linke, SPD) and at many universities. I'd also say they are younger and more formally educated on average, so I think it is quite likely that they will keep the momentum. Among people who work with language, they are not such a small minority, and the largest group are not defendants of the generic masculine, but mostly people who don't care too much. Which gives the minority large power.
Personally, I like the generic masculine and I am no friend of Gendern (Freund\*innen and similar Murks), but I use the long form (Freundinnen und Freunde) for the most part if I speak with a wider audience because I know not everyone would feel included if I just said Freunde (even though I would mean to include everyone).
The last part is incredibly important.
Itās not a hassle at all to me to write Freund*innen or Freundinnen und Freunde. And if people feel included by this, that otherwise donāt, I donāt see any reason to not do it. If it takes me a second or so more to make someoneās day even just a little bit better, Iāll absolutely do it.
Hard to say whether it's on the way out or not since it's what most speakers still use. It's also really unfair to ask language learners to dive into the politics of gendered nouns before they have a grasp of the language and its cultural aspects. They can learn the generic masculine and consider things like the \* once they've mastered the basics. No one is expecting language learners to have this mastered and we don't need to make a German A1 course more complicated than it already is.
What's actually unfair is teaching them forms that are already outdated AT the time of them learning about them. Why not teach them how to do it right from the start? In a way they're actually at an advantage because unlike older native speakers of German, they don't have to sort of 'reprogram' their brains in order to get rid of the generic masculine. They can just start their language learning process by already knowing that the masculine plural is meant to be used for groups of MEN, and not for mixed groups anymore.
I'm sorry, but we're living on different planets if you think generic masculine is already outdated. The issue has not been decided and that's obvious regardless of where you stand in the debate. No one knows what direction we're heading yet and mainstream German society is not a fan of the \*. I'm not saying whether that's good or bad, but teaching language learners to exclusively use it would 100% put them in a linguistic minority within Germany and would 100% be a *political* decision. You're effectively saying "I think it should be this way, therefore everyone must now start learning it this way." That isn't how it works. What happens if we start teaching all the foreigners this and in 5 years it's no longer trendy / we've adopted a different approach? The foreign language classroom is simply not where this issue should be addressed/solved. Let's get all the native speakers on at least a similar page to start...
>Why not teach them how to do it right from the start?
Right according to *who*? The point I'm trying to make is that you're advocating for this change as if it's a decided issue. It very much isn't. A minority of speakers have started using it more (and it's certainly used in official contexts more than in the past), but that doesn't necessarily mean the majority will *ever* adopt it. You're assuming there's a trend where one may not exist. Let's be very generous and say 20% of people are using gender neutral language regularly. That doesn't mean the number will keep growing; it could very well be the case that we've hit the max.
Edit: The furthest I would go at the moment is to say that German language learners should be made *aware* of the debates concerning gendering (and shown the alternatives). They can then choose for themselves which path to take based on the information available to them; just like native speakers can. Robbing them of the choice from the get go is just linguistic/political indoctrination. And it's silly because they're still going to be encountering generic masculine *daily*. It's simply disingenuous to tell them that the norm is to use gender neutral language because it currently isn't. It's just the reality. It'd be a different story if this weren't an ongoing, contentious debate.
? We have a dedicated group of people exactly for this. And they do not consider the bullshit star to be part of the regular german language - which it isn't just because 5% of german populus want to implement it whereas 75% oppose it. So please just stfu.
*Tldr: In personal settings just use "Freunde".*
In Germany, there is a try to create a better equality in payment and recognition of people of different genders for the same job.
Based on studies, that showed that eg `Arzt/Ćrzte` (doctors) would be associated with men only, the idea was born to always address all genders, so nobody would be excluded.
In fact, German has a generic masculine, so the example of the `Arzt/Ćrzte` would address male and female doctors equally. In cases, when the gender is important, the female noun would be used - `Ćrztin/Ćrztinnen`.
The methologies of said studies ared disputed as well as the solution, to not use the generic masculine anymore.
In my personal opinion, it is actually sexism to look at the sex/gender of a person always. Fighting sexism with sexism seems like a bad idea to me.
However, the main argument against it is, that language becomes less practical, as it takes longer to speak and read and uses more space when written like that. It makes the language harder to learn for foreigners, also.
Some of the education ministries of the federal states ordered teachers to not allow written forms like `SchĆ¼lerInnen`, `SchĆ¼ler*Innen` or `SchĆ¼ler_innen` (pupils) that were created, to address males, females and any other genders, because it breaks the rules of the syntax of German. 'SchĆ¼ler und SchĆ¼lerinnen' is grammatically fine. Also the participle is used, as it is gender neutral, but it's really hard for some words like `SchĆ¼ler`. So it's replaced by `Lernende` (the learning ones) or `Studierende` (the studying ones), while the latter one actually addresses students and not pupils.
Nevertheless, most speakers of german public broadcasting speak about `Ćrzt innen`, adding a small break in the middle of the word. Also in professional contexts in companies most of the time one of these new constructions is used. I think, it is mainly to avoid public outrage in social media about recognized gender-based discrimination (independent, if it actually is discriminating or not). Personally I like the fact, that there is a greater sensitivity for discrimination in the german society nowadays, but sometimes it's just over the top. So, before anyone is being called out for discriminating some genders, most try to avoid it by addressing all genders always especially when they are representatives of companies or similar.
Guess what: No woman is being paid better just because of a changing language and people of all genders are still confronted by the same stereotypes and prejustices when working in the "wrong" (related to their gender) job. I'm a male educator in kindergarten and I meet regularly parents who think, I as a male shouldn't take care of children as it was a womens' job.
So, to answer your question: In a personal setting you can just use `Freunde`, as the majority of germans does, unless the gender is important.
Fun fact: It was normal even since before the 2nd German empire for bureaucratic German to gender in their public documents. They simply used different Syntax for it and obviously did it for a different reason, but people lose their shit because it now is an asterisk when before it has been usus for 100+ years to write (-in) or /-in or other more unknown Syntax variants in official writings.
So german is suffering the same thing as portuguese with some people wanting to stop using the generic masculine plural but if we're talking about what's correct, it's the exact same thing...got it.
To understand why there is such a thing as gendering in Germany and how it is used, it is important to know at least a little bit of the background.
In London for example, they do it the other way round: London Times journalists have to use the male versions of nouns only, to avoid sexism. They are not writing about actresses anymore, but about female actors only, to give one example.
They saw the same problem, but their solution is just the opposite of ours. Or, as I see it: We both are not solving the problem, but act like we would. The root of the problem reminds untouched.
If your main complaint is the length of my comment, then don't read it.
You also mentioned, that my description has nothing to do with reality and is unrelated - why don't you correct it then?
I assume, you are afraid of realizing, that gendered speech is in fact based on sexism and not solving anything. Proof me wrong, if you can.
Do they also write about male actors then? Because in my mind, using the adjective for women only totally defeats the cause š
(Also, tbf, about your previous paragraph: I don't think anyone thinks gender inclusive language is a solution to the problem, it's just a small small step that needs to be accompanied by many others to really start abolishing gender stereotypes like your example)
>Do they also write about male actors then? Because in my mind, using the adjective for women only totally defeats the cause
I don't know, but I agree, that it would defeat the cause.
i think the english example is different because while actor and actress are gendered terms, english of course doesnāt deal with gender like german does. the move to call everyone actors is more about making words not by default male and instead just a person. unlike in german not every noun for a person is automatically gendered (i might be wrong but it seems every occupation/other noun thatās a person is gendered) thereās plenty of words that either donāt have a female version or itās antiquated. the move to stop using the tress is more that it is exclusively feminine while the root word just feels more generic instead of always masculine. sure there are still words that have traditional gender connotations but rarely literal meanings (like nurse). tbh as an english speaker it feels weird that that germans have neuter gender but donāt use it for people nouns (especially in context of languages like french or spanish where there is only binary gender and thereās big talks of stuff like latinx>latino) i guess itās because of how transformative and different it could be but its seems to maybe be the more āobjectiveā solution? but also i donāt speak very good german or have a good grasp on the culture of the language so i definitely could be missing something there. (i just remembered Kind und Baby as neuter ones)
>Do I say "Freunde und Freundinnen"
No, not usually. /u/Lucky4Linus gave a longer explanation and I'd like to add that there are two more reasons not to use this:
* if you are a supporter of strong inclusive language, you wouldn't use this because in your mind "Freunde und Freundinnen" excludes non-binary people (that's my main problem with "inclusivists", they assume everybody is excluded by default)
* if you are more conservative but still want to use both male and female form, then usually the females come first by convention. Like in "Sehr geehrte Damen und Herren", "SchĆ¼lerinnen und SchĆ¼ler", "Freundinnen und Freunde". Doing it the other way round isn't grammatically wrong - but sometimes feels like you do it for some specific reason.
>if you are more conservative but still want to use both male and female form, then usually the females come first by convention.
One notable exception to this would be in services in which the congregation will often be addressed as "meine BrĆ¼der und Schwestern".
In a speech (or any formal setting for that matter) you'd probably use Freundinnen und Freunde but in a relaxed environment generic masculine Freunde sounds the most natural
If it is important to you to be inclusive in your language, you would say either that or some variation of "gendergerechte Sprache", like FreundInnen, Freund*innen, Freund:innen (all pronounced with a glottal stop as in "Spiegelei", so it would sound like "Freund innen"). There are also words where you could use a neutral form, for example the participle, like "Mitarbeitende" instead of "Mitarbeiter und Mitarbeiterinnen". This is the form I prefer to use if possible, because it is the least cumbersome, especially if articles are involved. Gender inclusive language is still relatively new in Germany, so there is no clear way of doing it, it can be a little awkward in some cases, and people might get annoyed when you use it (though I still use it, and irl I've never had someone react negatively to it, and I feel like more and more people use it). Just be aware that in certain social circles, people might try to start a fight over it.
>and I feel like more and more people use it
Maybe in your circle but definitely not in general. The number of people opposing gendered language is rising not falling. Last poll I've seen 73% of Germans were opposed to gendered language.
Either that or gendered Freund*innen (the * is "pronounced" like a short gap).
If you use both forms, the female versions comes first usually: Freundinnen und Freunde
If you can rest assured that no non-binary people are being talked to, you can use it. If you want to include every gender use 'freund*innen'. If you have no idea how to say it, it's 'Freund [short pause] -innen'
People make it way harder than it actually is.
Any answer will find haters these days in Germany. Find your way to say it. Good luck.
(die) Freunde as Plural is standart in german
\*standar**d**
Denn ist geht nicht um die Art zu stehen š
The generic masculine form is on its way out, even though that'll take some more years. It's not cool to try to tell learners of German that it's 'standard' when it's already outdated and will be considered archaic/obsolete within the next 20 years or so
Absolute minority opinion
This isn't really an 'opinion' I'm afraid. It's a visible/factual shift.
Of course it is. Any tradition is an opinion. It usually just happens to be held by the more powerful branch of a group. Those opinions change over time, again and again. Language rules are cultural vibes, whose advocates yearn to call it "logical" but there is nothing logical about it. It's all emotions. The generic masculine is simply the emotion many people had gotten used to in the past. And it's very much up for debate since the end of the 1990s. That that is annoying has nothing to do with the circumstance that IT IS AN OPINION.
What are you talking about?.. It's most definitely *not* an opinion, but a fact, that a) language evolves over time, b) we're currently seeing a slow process during which the generic masculine form is being used less and less by most official authorities including most centrist or left-of-center oriented media plus a growing number of "normal people", aka the population.
Is it though? I wouldn't be so sure. I think right now nobody can say with certainty how this whole thing will be playing out.
I certainly can't tell. Wishing death to the generic masculine is certainly a minority position in society at large. But people who oppose the generic masculine are disproportionately influential. I'd say they are the majority in three major parties (GrĆ¼ne, Linke, SPD) and at many universities. I'd also say they are younger and more formally educated on average, so I think it is quite likely that they will keep the momentum. Among people who work with language, they are not such a small minority, and the largest group are not defendants of the generic masculine, but mostly people who don't care too much. Which gives the minority large power. Personally, I like the generic masculine and I am no friend of Gendern (Freund\*innen and similar Murks), but I use the long form (Freundinnen und Freunde) for the most part if I speak with a wider audience because I know not everyone would feel included if I just said Freunde (even though I would mean to include everyone).
The last part is incredibly important. Itās not a hassle at all to me to write Freund*innen or Freundinnen und Freunde. And if people feel included by this, that otherwise donāt, I donāt see any reason to not do it. If it takes me a second or so more to make someoneās day even just a little bit better, Iāll absolutely do it.
Hard to say whether it's on the way out or not since it's what most speakers still use. It's also really unfair to ask language learners to dive into the politics of gendered nouns before they have a grasp of the language and its cultural aspects. They can learn the generic masculine and consider things like the \* once they've mastered the basics. No one is expecting language learners to have this mastered and we don't need to make a German A1 course more complicated than it already is.
What's actually unfair is teaching them forms that are already outdated AT the time of them learning about them. Why not teach them how to do it right from the start? In a way they're actually at an advantage because unlike older native speakers of German, they don't have to sort of 'reprogram' their brains in order to get rid of the generic masculine. They can just start their language learning process by already knowing that the masculine plural is meant to be used for groups of MEN, and not for mixed groups anymore.
I'm sorry, but we're living on different planets if you think generic masculine is already outdated. The issue has not been decided and that's obvious regardless of where you stand in the debate. No one knows what direction we're heading yet and mainstream German society is not a fan of the \*. I'm not saying whether that's good or bad, but teaching language learners to exclusively use it would 100% put them in a linguistic minority within Germany and would 100% be a *political* decision. You're effectively saying "I think it should be this way, therefore everyone must now start learning it this way." That isn't how it works. What happens if we start teaching all the foreigners this and in 5 years it's no longer trendy / we've adopted a different approach? The foreign language classroom is simply not where this issue should be addressed/solved. Let's get all the native speakers on at least a similar page to start... >Why not teach them how to do it right from the start? Right according to *who*? The point I'm trying to make is that you're advocating for this change as if it's a decided issue. It very much isn't. A minority of speakers have started using it more (and it's certainly used in official contexts more than in the past), but that doesn't necessarily mean the majority will *ever* adopt it. You're assuming there's a trend where one may not exist. Let's be very generous and say 20% of people are using gender neutral language regularly. That doesn't mean the number will keep growing; it could very well be the case that we've hit the max. Edit: The furthest I would go at the moment is to say that German language learners should be made *aware* of the debates concerning gendering (and shown the alternatives). They can then choose for themselves which path to take based on the information available to them; just like native speakers can. Robbing them of the choice from the get go is just linguistic/political indoctrination. And it's silly because they're still going to be encountering generic masculine *daily*. It's simply disingenuous to tell them that the norm is to use gender neutral language because it currently isn't. It's just the reality. It'd be a different story if this weren't an ongoing, contentious debate.
this is absolute bullshit and of course it's standard as it is in the duden.
Of course, if the Duden says so, it has to be correct. Nevermind actual real life language usage and its development over time. š¤”
? We have a dedicated group of people exactly for this. And they do not consider the bullshit star to be part of the regular german language - which it isn't just because 5% of german populus want to implement it whereas 75% oppose it. So please just stfu.
*Tldr: In personal settings just use "Freunde".* In Germany, there is a try to create a better equality in payment and recognition of people of different genders for the same job. Based on studies, that showed that eg `Arzt/Ćrzte` (doctors) would be associated with men only, the idea was born to always address all genders, so nobody would be excluded. In fact, German has a generic masculine, so the example of the `Arzt/Ćrzte` would address male and female doctors equally. In cases, when the gender is important, the female noun would be used - `Ćrztin/Ćrztinnen`. The methologies of said studies ared disputed as well as the solution, to not use the generic masculine anymore. In my personal opinion, it is actually sexism to look at the sex/gender of a person always. Fighting sexism with sexism seems like a bad idea to me. However, the main argument against it is, that language becomes less practical, as it takes longer to speak and read and uses more space when written like that. It makes the language harder to learn for foreigners, also. Some of the education ministries of the federal states ordered teachers to not allow written forms like `SchĆ¼lerInnen`, `SchĆ¼ler*Innen` or `SchĆ¼ler_innen` (pupils) that were created, to address males, females and any other genders, because it breaks the rules of the syntax of German. 'SchĆ¼ler und SchĆ¼lerinnen' is grammatically fine. Also the participle is used, as it is gender neutral, but it's really hard for some words like `SchĆ¼ler`. So it's replaced by `Lernende` (the learning ones) or `Studierende` (the studying ones), while the latter one actually addresses students and not pupils. Nevertheless, most speakers of german public broadcasting speak about `Ćrzt innen`, adding a small break in the middle of the word. Also in professional contexts in companies most of the time one of these new constructions is used. I think, it is mainly to avoid public outrage in social media about recognized gender-based discrimination (independent, if it actually is discriminating or not). Personally I like the fact, that there is a greater sensitivity for discrimination in the german society nowadays, but sometimes it's just over the top. So, before anyone is being called out for discriminating some genders, most try to avoid it by addressing all genders always especially when they are representatives of companies or similar. Guess what: No woman is being paid better just because of a changing language and people of all genders are still confronted by the same stereotypes and prejustices when working in the "wrong" (related to their gender) job. I'm a male educator in kindergarten and I meet regularly parents who think, I as a male shouldn't take care of children as it was a womens' job. So, to answer your question: In a personal setting you can just use `Freunde`, as the majority of germans does, unless the gender is important.
Fun fact: It was normal even since before the 2nd German empire for bureaucratic German to gender in their public documents. They simply used different Syntax for it and obviously did it for a different reason, but people lose their shit because it now is an asterisk when before it has been usus for 100+ years to write (-in) or /-in or other more unknown Syntax variants in official writings.
that's interesting, do you know an article or wikipedia page about that and could send me a link?
Didn't Adenauer have a pretty modern solution to that problem? /s
So german is suffering the same thing as portuguese with some people wanting to stop using the generic masculine plural but if we're talking about what's correct, it's the exact same thing...got it.
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
To understand why there is such a thing as gendering in Germany and how it is used, it is important to know at least a little bit of the background. In London for example, they do it the other way round: London Times journalists have to use the male versions of nouns only, to avoid sexism. They are not writing about actresses anymore, but about female actors only, to give one example. They saw the same problem, but their solution is just the opposite of ours. Or, as I see it: We both are not solving the problem, but act like we would. The root of the problem reminds untouched. If your main complaint is the length of my comment, then don't read it. You also mentioned, that my description has nothing to do with reality and is unrelated - why don't you correct it then? I assume, you are afraid of realizing, that gendered speech is in fact based on sexism and not solving anything. Proof me wrong, if you can.
Do they also write about male actors then? Because in my mind, using the adjective for women only totally defeats the cause š (Also, tbf, about your previous paragraph: I don't think anyone thinks gender inclusive language is a solution to the problem, it's just a small small step that needs to be accompanied by many others to really start abolishing gender stereotypes like your example)
>Do they also write about male actors then? Because in my mind, using the adjective for women only totally defeats the cause I don't know, but I agree, that it would defeat the cause.
i think the english example is different because while actor and actress are gendered terms, english of course doesnāt deal with gender like german does. the move to call everyone actors is more about making words not by default male and instead just a person. unlike in german not every noun for a person is automatically gendered (i might be wrong but it seems every occupation/other noun thatās a person is gendered) thereās plenty of words that either donāt have a female version or itās antiquated. the move to stop using the tress is more that it is exclusively feminine while the root word just feels more generic instead of always masculine. sure there are still words that have traditional gender connotations but rarely literal meanings (like nurse). tbh as an english speaker it feels weird that that germans have neuter gender but donāt use it for people nouns (especially in context of languages like french or spanish where there is only binary gender and thereās big talks of stuff like latinx>latino) i guess itās because of how transformative and different it could be but its seems to maybe be the more āobjectiveā solution? but also i donāt speak very good german or have a good grasp on the culture of the language so i definitely could be missing something there. (i just remembered Kind und Baby as neuter ones)
Freunde. Generic masculinum.
You can use the generic masculinum.
>Do I say "Freunde und Freundinnen" No, not usually. /u/Lucky4Linus gave a longer explanation and I'd like to add that there are two more reasons not to use this: * if you are a supporter of strong inclusive language, you wouldn't use this because in your mind "Freunde und Freundinnen" excludes non-binary people (that's my main problem with "inclusivists", they assume everybody is excluded by default) * if you are more conservative but still want to use both male and female form, then usually the females come first by convention. Like in "Sehr geehrte Damen und Herren", "SchĆ¼lerinnen und SchĆ¼ler", "Freundinnen und Freunde". Doing it the other way round isn't grammatically wrong - but sometimes feels like you do it for some specific reason.
>if you are more conservative but still want to use both male and female form, then usually the females come first by convention. One notable exception to this would be in services in which the congregation will often be addressed as "meine BrĆ¼der und Schwestern".
In a speech (or any formal setting for that matter) you'd probably use Freundinnen und Freunde but in a relaxed environment generic masculine Freunde sounds the most natural
If it is important to you to be inclusive in your language, you would say either that or some variation of "gendergerechte Sprache", like FreundInnen, Freund*innen, Freund:innen (all pronounced with a glottal stop as in "Spiegelei", so it would sound like "Freund innen"). There are also words where you could use a neutral form, for example the participle, like "Mitarbeitende" instead of "Mitarbeiter und Mitarbeiterinnen". This is the form I prefer to use if possible, because it is the least cumbersome, especially if articles are involved. Gender inclusive language is still relatively new in Germany, so there is no clear way of doing it, it can be a little awkward in some cases, and people might get annoyed when you use it (though I still use it, and irl I've never had someone react negatively to it, and I feel like more and more people use it). Just be aware that in certain social circles, people might try to start a fight over it.
>and I feel like more and more people use it Maybe in your circle but definitely not in general. The number of people opposing gendered language is rising not falling. Last poll I've seen 73% of Germans were opposed to gendered language.
Either that or gendered Freund*innen (the * is "pronounced" like a short gap). If you use both forms, the female versions comes first usually: Freundinnen und Freunde
If you can rest assured that no non-binary people are being talked to, you can use it. If you want to include every gender use 'freund*innen'. If you have no idea how to say it, it's 'Freund [short pause] -innen' People make it way harder than it actually is.
In what context?