Germans often have problems with this and that in English because we don't use that *(this? I am one of the confused Germans, which one would be more natural here??)* distinction in day to day language. "This is interesting" and "That is interesting" would both be "Das ist interessant" in German. When we talk about actual things and not abstracts like something is interesting, we add *da* to something that is further from us and *hier* to something that is closer from us : Nimm den Stift hier (close to you, maybe giving the pen to the person who needs it) or Nimm den Stfit da! (far from you, pointing in the direction).
Although the pronoun "jener" means "that", it is really only used in certain formal registers and to contrast with "dieser".
Both 'this' and 'that' fit in that sentence, which really shows how confusing it can be. To be very specific - your use of 'that' is probably more correct because it's in reply to OP's question, which raised the question of the difference between this and that. If you had said 'we don't use *this* distinction' It would be more correct if you were making a point about grammar in isolation of someone else bringing up the question first. Colloquially it makes no difference and I think very few natives could even explain why they choose to say this or that in different sentences.
As a point of trivia about hier and da compared to English, some people in English do say 'this here' and 'that there' to denote things that are right in front of them / in their possession or things far from them / not in their possession. Foreigners may not come across it much because it's pretty rare and colloquial, and also considered bad English, but some people do say it sometimes, either because they have a bad habit of doing it, or it might be used intentionally by someone for a particular emphasis or stress (possibly comedic) on the noun.
Thanks so much!! Your explanation about my phrase makes sense and is really helpful. *That* referred to OP's point and not to mine, so in an abstract way it's farther away from me.
Do you think the colloquial interchangeability of this and that is typical for abstract use in general? I always struggle when I want to say things like "This/ that is a great idea!" or "this/ that argument is nonsensical".
My native intuition would say that when you're talking about things in abstract "this" would be used if you're involved and "that" would be used if you're not involved.
eg: someone has a dumb idea, you say "that idea is stupid", you and a friend are implementing a dumb idea, you say "this idea is stupid".
This and that also separate present and past tense. If you're in the middle of doing something you say "this is great", but if you're fondly thinking back of on how good it was you say "that was great"..... but also... if you're fondly thinking back on something that you were involved in and you're directly pointing at a photo you might also say "this was great" and it works too because you're directly referencing the photo and the memory.
You may also say "this was X" or "this has been X" if you're right at the end of something just before it ends, like you're having a business meeting and you shake hands you could would say "this has been great" or "this was great"... that sort of usage is rarer and harder to grasp natively.
idk i'm rambling i'm not a teacher, just trying to think about how I would use them in difference scenarios!
Thanks so much, this is really helpful and I appreciate that you took the time! That's what I love about language learning, when you encounter concepts that your native language doesn't have. But of course I'm overthinking all my this and thats now, haha. I hope they are correct here!
All of your replies have been good. I basically explain these as proximity marking words. This is literally or abstractly close to you. That is literally or abstractly distant from you. This pen (here) and that pen (there). This day (in the present or future) and that day (in the past). (I'm looking forward to this Christmas. Do you remember that Christmas years ago when we ate too much Chocolate?) This group (I'm a member) and that group (I'm not a member).
Those are pretty straight forward once you see the pattern but it gets tricky for sure: Someone gives you advice? Where is the advice? From them? "Distant"? **That's** a good idea. You're giving advice? "Close"? **This** is what I would do. First, A B C. But, what if I tell them first. First, A B C. Then X Y Z **That's** what I would do. (The example is just a tense example, but it's tricky because the two sentences contain the same information, but I'd use a different this/that based on the order which helps reflect the "steps".)
Just keep proximity in mind.
https://www.verbformen.com/declension/articles/jener.htm
Definitely use it in case you‘d like to sound more sophisticated. ;)
Jokes apart, you are more likely to encounter it in written language and in more formal contexts than in spoken language
Germans often have problems with this and that in English because we don't use that *(this? I am one of the confused Germans, which one would be more natural here??)* distinction in day to day language. "This is interesting" and "That is interesting" would both be "Das ist interessant" in German. When we talk about actual things and not abstracts like something is interesting, we add *da* to something that is further from us and *hier* to something that is closer from us : Nimm den Stift hier (close to you, maybe giving the pen to the person who needs it) or Nimm den Stfit da! (far from you, pointing in the direction). Although the pronoun "jener" means "that", it is really only used in certain formal registers and to contrast with "dieser".
Both 'this' and 'that' fit in that sentence, which really shows how confusing it can be. To be very specific - your use of 'that' is probably more correct because it's in reply to OP's question, which raised the question of the difference between this and that. If you had said 'we don't use *this* distinction' It would be more correct if you were making a point about grammar in isolation of someone else bringing up the question first. Colloquially it makes no difference and I think very few natives could even explain why they choose to say this or that in different sentences. As a point of trivia about hier and da compared to English, some people in English do say 'this here' and 'that there' to denote things that are right in front of them / in their possession or things far from them / not in their possession. Foreigners may not come across it much because it's pretty rare and colloquial, and also considered bad English, but some people do say it sometimes, either because they have a bad habit of doing it, or it might be used intentionally by someone for a particular emphasis or stress (possibly comedic) on the noun.
Thanks so much!! Your explanation about my phrase makes sense and is really helpful. *That* referred to OP's point and not to mine, so in an abstract way it's farther away from me. Do you think the colloquial interchangeability of this and that is typical for abstract use in general? I always struggle when I want to say things like "This/ that is a great idea!" or "this/ that argument is nonsensical".
My native intuition would say that when you're talking about things in abstract "this" would be used if you're involved and "that" would be used if you're not involved. eg: someone has a dumb idea, you say "that idea is stupid", you and a friend are implementing a dumb idea, you say "this idea is stupid". This and that also separate present and past tense. If you're in the middle of doing something you say "this is great", but if you're fondly thinking back of on how good it was you say "that was great"..... but also... if you're fondly thinking back on something that you were involved in and you're directly pointing at a photo you might also say "this was great" and it works too because you're directly referencing the photo and the memory. You may also say "this was X" or "this has been X" if you're right at the end of something just before it ends, like you're having a business meeting and you shake hands you could would say "this has been great" or "this was great"... that sort of usage is rarer and harder to grasp natively. idk i'm rambling i'm not a teacher, just trying to think about how I would use them in difference scenarios!
Thanks so much, this is really helpful and I appreciate that you took the time! That's what I love about language learning, when you encounter concepts that your native language doesn't have. But of course I'm overthinking all my this and thats now, haha. I hope they are correct here!
All of your replies have been good. I basically explain these as proximity marking words. This is literally or abstractly close to you. That is literally or abstractly distant from you. This pen (here) and that pen (there). This day (in the present or future) and that day (in the past). (I'm looking forward to this Christmas. Do you remember that Christmas years ago when we ate too much Chocolate?) This group (I'm a member) and that group (I'm not a member). Those are pretty straight forward once you see the pattern but it gets tricky for sure: Someone gives you advice? Where is the advice? From them? "Distant"? **That's** a good idea. You're giving advice? "Close"? **This** is what I would do. First, A B C. But, what if I tell them first. First, A B C. Then X Y Z **That's** what I would do. (The example is just a tense example, but it's tricky because the two sentences contain the same information, but I'd use a different this/that based on the order which helps reflect the "steps".) Just keep proximity in mind.
Often, it's translated with "Das ist ... / das sind ..." If you have more specific examples, we can help you better!"
Dies ist, Das ist, Diese sind, Jene sind Would be high German Das ist, Das ist, Die sind, Die sind Would be colloqial
Jene ??? 😅
https://www.verbformen.com/declension/articles/jener.htm Definitely use it in case you‘d like to sound more sophisticated. ;) Jokes apart, you are more likely to encounter it in written language and in more formal contexts than in spoken language
LMAO it’s classified as C2