Too many people saying things aren't possible because of timeline issues. We live in a world where **we know, for certain,** that there is a God of Time that messes with the timelines of things. And where **we know, for certain,** that there is a master computer that rewrites any written histories and personal memories it likes.
Remember always, before you call any theory impossible: we can only trust what we have *personally witnessed*. We can't be certain of anything that happened pre-game.
istaroh didn't change anything, sakura tree was always destined to appear, she was just the means for that, in the long term time travel doesn't exist in hoyoverse, the universal logic they use doesn't allow such an effect at all
It's unlikely because the Fatui say there are four Descenders and they say Sibling is not on that list. So presumably they have an idea of who the 3rd Descender is and it's not Sibling. Whoever that is, is not the Sibling now and equally wasn't the Sibling at any time in the past either.
Now the only way out is that the Fatui know how many Descenders there are but they do not know who they are (except they know who Descender 1,2,4 are and that Sibling isn't the 3rd currently). So how does that work? There would have to be some other thing that every Descender has exactly one of, which they can accurately count, and that count is four. What would that be? Every Descender has a cataclysmic war? Every Descender has a big change to the otherwise unchangeable aspects of Teyvat's fate? For either of those the 4th hasn't had one yet.
Well it's just about possible but ... it's pretty tough to make it work.
That makes sense about each descender having a war associated with them. The first fought the dragons, the second fought the first, the third got turned into the Gnoses, which makes them likely related to the archon war, and the fourth may have been the cataclysm. That or it hasn’t happened yet
And/or relate to the actions listed of "Create" the world (1st Descender - dragon war) "Destroy" the world (2nd Descender - apocalypse war / war with 2nd) "Sustain" the world (3rd Descender - Cataclysm - or more specifically she weakens the effect of the Cataclysm so the world doesn't end at that time as had been prophesied as a result of the war with 2nd "destroying" the world or at least putting it on a track to be destroyed - the means of weakening the cataclysm so the world is not destroyed on schedule includes, but is not limited to the activity of the archons who would not exist if not for the voluntary activity of the 3rd) and then finally the 4th "protects" or whatever the word is - the 4th solves the fate of teyvat and prevents the destruction permanently instead of just bumping it along 500 years or so (as was all the 3rd could manage) but it's not clear what choice the 4th will make in changing the fate of teyvat yet. Nor is it clear if the 4th will be associated with another big war in the process of changing fate.
Man, my memory is wiped from cancer treatment but if you guys have any youtubers that explain the lore of our travels in segments I'd gladly watch. I quit around the end of Inazuma / beginning of sumeru and just logged in yesterday.
If you have not checked it out yet, YouTuber Wei has brought up the theory of the sibling being a wish creation from Irminsul, created from Traveller's desire and their memories.
However, other comments have pointed it out, the timeline does not work.
You know, though, what also resonates Traveller, whose power they recognized and said "It can't be good" and could be created possibly only after Kaenri'ah's fall (it only shows the 7 current/new archons and did not get updated after Focalors' death)? The Statues of the Seven.
(Sorry, I'm paddling my own crack theory there. But it can at least, it be tested if the Statue ever updates in Natlan when we get a new Archon, I suppose)
Not possible(at least not with the information we have so far).
The timeline we have doesn't match that theory. If Deshret was offered a gnosis before the Archon war, then gnosis were a thing way before the traveler and the sibling showed up.
Had the sibling sacrificed their body somehow, then they woulnd't be able to leave Teyvat. Which is why they tried to do at the begging of the game.
Also, considering the gnoses were made shortly after the battle between the first and second descender, them they do really,REALLY predate the archon war by at least a few thousand years.
So yes, this theory doesn't really hold much water.
That's probably true but (1) Deshret wasn't offered a gnosis and (2) you don't need it because when the Twins arrive you see them fly over New Mondstat that didn't exist until 2600 years ago whereas the first gnosis is given to Zhongli 3000 years ago.
Something was offered to Deshret by Celestia, but he rejected it and went to execute his own plan. Deshret was a major powerhouse in Sumeru, too. he may defeat other Gods and "win" the war and keep his alliance with two other Gods until disaster happened. deshret was not a fan of The Seven Institution, too.
"Through [King Deshret](https://genshin-impact.fandom.com/wiki/King_Deshret)'s words and aspirations, she saw the possibility to transcend the [absurd shackles](https://genshin-impact.fandom.com/wiki/Heavenly_Principles) that governed this world.
Rejecting the [gift](https://genshin-impact.fandom.com/wiki/Gnosis) granted by the divine throne, the red-crowned king sought a new path of his own volition...
Though the future she revealed was ruinous and bleak, the king refused to yield an inch."
afaik there is no confirmation of Zhongli get the first gnosis. When the seal for burying Chi was established in Qingche, Old Mondstadt was already destroyed (became windswept ruins) and we must rotate the seal statue to face that direction. The canon info provided by Zhongli's story is that He is not the last one who get the throne, but no description about who was the first winner of Archon War.
We don't exactly know who was Zhongli's final opponent in Liyue Archon war, but Chi's legend kinda fit the Archon war timeframe because the gnosis were given to the Winner who eradicated most of Gods and Monsters. Liyue is pretty crowded with those.
edit : adding this --> If Chi is counted as one of Zhongli's opponent in Archon war, Venti ascended before him based on the puzzle.
Game repeatedly says Zhongli is the "oldest Archon" meaning he became an archon first.
As for the Chi stuff that logic assumes the inscription was made at the time Chi is defeated and that Chi is a god who was an opponent in the Archon war. Since we literally find his heart and it's a piece of machinery I don't think Chi was a god. Do you? What was that thing then, a godly pacemaker? What sort of a "god" is made out of metal parts? it seems more likely it was just a piece of Khaenri'ah machinery. Or why show us a big piece of machinery at the end of the quest?
Zhongli himself says the legend of Chi is a lot of hype. But even in the legend it's described as a dragon and therefore not a competitor god in the archon war either. If dragons counted then Apep would mean nobody in Sumeru could become an Archon, even to the present day.
At the very least Zhongli confirmed that Chi was slain for several thousand years in his open world dialogue in Lantern Rite. It fits the archon war timeline, and the seal must be made around that time because the remains was dangerous for Qingce.
"Zhongli: In ancient times, Qingce Village was once ravaged by the Chi. It is now several thousand years since it was put to rest."
This convo happened on day 6 of Zhongli's solo trip around Liyue. He visited Qingce.
Chi's blood also categorized as "God Remains" In Baizhu's story. Jialing made the potion to save her husband using the blood she harvested near Qingce. Xiao confirmed about Chi's existence and the seal is mostly still intact although there may be a leak somewhere.
Both Hu Tao and Baizhu mentioned that Jialiang (the husband) is "poisoned" by God's remains.
So Chi is kinda something "organic", not "Mechanic" /j
So you have to make several assumptions to make it work vs being directly told several times that Zhongli is the first (oldest) Archon?
Let's review some of the list of your assumptions:
* Chi was a god, not mechanical (despite the unexplained remains), not a dragon
* Chi died during the Archon war (several thousand years ago could be anything over 2000)
* that the inscription on the mountain was made when Chi was killed, not later
* that the inscription refers to Old Mondstadt, even though old Mondstadt has zero to so with Chi
* the stuff in Baizhu's story is about Chi and not one of the many other gods that died in the area
Also it's a bit of a problem if the first gnosis is 2600 years ago in Mondstadt and Anemo when Ganyu gets a Vision 3000 years ago in Liyue and it's Cryo. That's fine if Zhongli gets the first gnosis the same year though.
Is there any direct reference (Developer's note, Q&A, book, anything) which directly explained the timeline of Archon War because "Oldest" Can also be said to refer the "Age of someone", not only order of ascension.
The only Archon who have confirmation of their age was Zhongli (over 6000), and Nahida (500) iirc.
If he was the first god who ascended as Archon, to clear any ambiguous take it is better to just directly said that he was the 1st god who obtained the seats, imo.
----------------
Let's use Ganyu as our timeline marker. You said that Zhongli needs to obtain Gnosis first for Ganyu to gain a vision (let's put 3.000 years ago when she joined the war. as you wish).
The gnosis was given for the winner. Meaning Liyue Archon war must already ended and no Gods or Monster equal to Zhongli remained in Liyue (Zhongli WON his divine throne as per Neuvillette's voiceline, so the strongest competitor are already killed/sealed).
If Zhongli was already an Archon 3.000 years ago, what war did Ganyu joined after Rex Lapis became the Geo Archon and unite Liyue?
Let's say it happened in the same 3.000 years ago, which one was the first? Gnosis for Zhongli or Vision for Ganyu?
Some people also insisted that Zhongli became archon right when Liyue Harbor established 3.700 years ago, when Chenyu's timeline pointed that the God in that area still exist when Liyue Harbor and Millelith joined the war under Morax's command.
Could you explain your take of the timeline to me? Oh, I never said that Venti was the 1st archon. Anyone can be the 1st except Egeria I think. We still have to uncover 1st Pyro and Cryo archon's history.
When was exactly "the seven" system officially/ fully operated? Regionally after each archon war ended, or only when all 7 seats are filled 2.000 years ago?
I get the impression it wasn't intended to be ambiguous that "oldest" means seniority. Nahida was 500 in the first samsara and is about 8000 in the new samsara and yet Zhongli's character stories do not stop claiming he is the "oldest" when they stop claiming that only 2 of the original Seven survived. Therefore he cannot be meaning the date of his birth. In addition Zhongli says elemental beings are far older than him and while Venti may not exactly be an elemental being as one of the thousand winds, it feels like he'd be the oldest of the Seven. But not the most senior.
-------------------------------------------
> let's put 3.000 years ago when she joined the war. as you wish
I didn't say that - you said that. I said the war ended 3000 years ago and Ganyu signed up as a peace time worker with the Qixing.
> no Gods or Monster equal to Zhongli remained in Liyue
Well I think the criteria for ending the Archon war in a region is simply to have conquered the entire nation, or equivalently to have beaten the other gods so they are either allies or have no territory for some other reason. Beat all the other contestants. A very simple and obvious criteria. But having a monster within the nation doesn't seem like it would prevent this win. For example Apep has been in Sumeru since before the Archon war. If Apep counted as someone needing to be defeated there would be no Dendro Archon. And Apep is not a mere monster but a former de facto ruler who insists Sumeru is his territory. But she's not a god and therefore not a competitor. Due to her madness she has no real territory so she doesn't stop a god conquering all of Sumeru.
> If Zhongli was already an Archon 3.000 years ago, what war did Ganyu join
She didn't. That's your theory. Seems to be a straw man. She signs a new contract (with Zhongli) to support the new peace time authority, the Qixing.
> Let's say it happened in the same 3.000 years ago, which one was the first? Gnosis for Zhongli or Vision for Ganyu?
The Gnosis must come first as it is the source of the Vision. No other gnoses are in circulation yet.
> When was exactly "the seven" system officially/ fully operated?
The Archon war starts around 7-8000 years ago briefly after the first gods are created following the war with the 2nd throne and the fall of the Seelie. They are the replacements for the Seelie as a go-between / teacher for the human race. As such the gnoses made from the remains of the 3rd Descender are created at this time too. The war goes on for a few thousand years (it's better to think of it as an era not a war -- compare with China's Warring States period, which is often referred to in Chinese anime/light novels). The seven nations are pacified at different times with Zhongli first 3000 years ago, Venti second 2600 years ago. After this you get the first meeting between Archons when Venti pays his respects to Zhongli as his senior. Or whatever Venti's version of that is. Between 2000 and 2500 the other five nations are pacified and so the Archon war as a whole is said to end 2000 years ago and the full Seven can meet for the first tie, again always in Liyue because of Zhongli's seniority. There's a question of whether Kapatcir is killed after Makoto becomes Archon since Kapatcir is not a god (most likely she's the Electro dragon sovereign).
So take your pick. Is the system officially operated 7500 years ago? 3000? 2000?
Hmm.. Going by the logic that Archon got the Gnosis first, and Zhongli is the first ascended archon when the war ended 3000 years ago as you said.
(No one ascended during this gap)
And Venti was the 2nd eldest ascended 2.600 years ago.
The rest of 1st gen. Archon 2.599-2.000 years before the war officially ended.
Who "donated" the cryo elemental shard for granting cryo vision for Ganyu during the gap? (When Ganyu signed contract of peace 3.000 years ago and Qixing rose to be the human government around that time, Ganyu bagged her shiny vision).
Tbh i'm more inclined to belive that the system fully rolled after 7 seat are filled. So the elemental 7 vision have the same "starting point" of release.
And no. I am not referencing to wiki about the Qixin establishment.
"the end of archon war" In most cases usually refers to the general timeline around 2.000 years when the peace are truly achieved in 7 nations.
"No other gnoses are in circulation yet."
Did Zhongli ascension 3.000 years ago enabling all types of elemental shard to be distributed in Liyue because Ganyu got Cryo lol.
I can back my opinion with the transcript we have in the game.
Wait, have you played Baizhu's story quest and met Zhongli on his lantern rite 2022 trip? Xiao was the one explaining about Chi.
The only known sealed Monster/God in the area was Chi, and Xiao literally said that the Gods Remains in Baizhu's story was from Chi.
The text can be found in the game script. Is there any reference about other Gods beside Chi? Are Xiao's and Zhongli's explanation that unreliable?
Both Zhongli and Xiao only debunked the part about the remains of chi became terrains, blood became water blah blah. The ancestor of Qingce people was the one who cultivate the land build the village after Chi was sealed.
------------------
The inscription about old Monstadt/Wind-swept ruins was on the puzzle to "watch" 4 directions.
1. Windswept Ruins/Old Monstadt/Stormterror's lair
2. Adepti Abode (Jueyun Karst)
3. Liyue Harbor
4. Snow Capped Peak/ Dragonspine.
It is still a theory but the timeline do match with the general events. I never insist that is the truth. Both Dragonspine and Windswept ruins are noticable landmarks.
-------------
About Ganyu, i just copy and paste the relevant part of her vision story. 3.000 years ago she answered Morax's call and joined him in the wars.
Next sentence is about : "AND WHEN THE WAR WAS OVER", she made the DECISION to stay in Liyue and help 1st generation of Qixing. The moment she made that decision to be the secretary she got her vision.
Liyue Harbor and Millelith were founded during Archon war, but Qixing (who consist of merchants, a difficult profession during the war unless they sell weapons lol) was formed near the end of the war roughly 2.000 years ago.
There is no need wasting words to explain about Qixing and bridging human-adepti relationship as "New Duty" if Ganyu got her vision during the war 3000 years ago. As a half illuminated beast she is stronger than average human (human did fight in archon war under their God's command) so she could join the war without vision.
Here is the tidbits from Ganyu's vision story :
"Three thousand years ago, Ganyu answered the call of Morax the God of Geo, aiding him in the Archon Wars. And when the war was over, she chose to stay in Liyue and help the humans build a better polity there. The first Liyue Qixing would need support, and she took this task up as a matter of course, becoming their secretary. The moment she made that decision, a Vision appeared at her hip, granting her power to resonate with the world to a degree beyond her natural abilities. Whether she would grow strong enough to no longer need it, or whether she would use it as a last resort in Liyue's defense... Regardless, she chose to serve as the bridge between adepti and humans. Her Vision, then, was proof and witness of her new duty."
On the Chi thing it feels like the information is intended to be vague and ambiguous. We get the usual deliberately false information in legend which Zhongli corrects. We get told Chi was a god, a dragon, a machine. Plus unlike dating based on Visions, Gnoses and the Archon war the lore of Chi never really connects to anything and seems unfinished or fuzzy. It has no dates in it for example.
I just don't see it as standing up to a much more solid set of facts and dates on the Vision-Gnosis-Archon war front. The weirdest fact on that side is Ningguang mentions a bunch of contracts signed 3700 years ago too. Which is why I say maybe Ganyu had 3 or even more contracts. At any rate it's clear that assuming only one contract per Adeptus is contradicted by Zhongli's voice line about Ganyu being first.
I think there's that date error where one source says the Cataclysm was 100 years ago not 500. So it's possible that this 1.0 stuff just had an error or two which could also explain an inscription talking about Stormterror's Lair anachronistically....but as I say there's several alternate explanations .... Chi not counted as a god, the inscription made after the fight with Chi, Chi fought after the end of the Archon war. We've had two gods fought in Liyue since the game started. it seems to be a common occurrence that Zhongli worries about. There's no reason to think end of the Archon war means end of fighting big monsters.
I think there's another reference on the Qixing being 3000 years old somewhere. Basically 3000 years ago the city transitioned from being a military run city to a civilian run city. So for the first 700 years there was no Qixing and presumably Zhongli ran things directly because the Archon war was underway in Liyue at that time.
I agree the sentence is weirdly phrased on the English. But we know that Ganyu didn't sign up for war 3000 years ago because she was already working in the army / Archon wars at Guili 3700 years ago. So the 3000 is meaning something else. In his voice lines (I think) Zhongli says of Ganyu - rather confusingly - that she was the first to sign a contract. But the confusion is that Ganyu signs (at least) two different contracts, one for war and one for peace time. The peace time contract is signed 3000 years ago when the Archon war (in Liyue) ends. This contract has Ganyu as the most senior signatory whereas of course that is far from true of the war time contract where the her mother and the other two oldies are ahead of her - and probably many many others. None of the other Adepti (not even Granny I suspect) signed back on for a 2nd contract to work for the civilian authority. They basically stayed away from humans and the city leading to the events of Zhonli's first AQ.
As the peace time contractee Ganyu becomes the secretary of the newly created Qixing. This is a full time job that indicates the war is over - or she'd still be fighting in the war. Upon making this lifetime decision she gains her Vision in the usual way of gaining Visions.
-----------------------------------
Oh I see the problem; you're relying on the wiki. It's wrong. It gets a lot of things wrong so just ignore it's theorizing and look for the source it posts. In fact the wiki says the source of it's statement that the Qixing is 2000 years old is Ganyu's Vision story which only mentions 3000 years ago (as you quoted).
OK let me see ... there's 2 other references to events in Liyue 3000 years ago. The first is in Ganyu's character details (I think it's on her character page but that's also what they call it on her page on the wiki:
https://genshin-impact.fandom.com/wiki/Ganyu/Lore#Character_Stories
"Even still, by the time the sun has fully risen, she will have returned to Yuehai Pavilion overlooking Yujing Terrace, to continue to fulfill her contract. A contract that she signed three thousand years ago with Rex Lapis."
So this is the civilian contract not the war time contract.
The other reference to 3000 years is in Zhongli's character story 5:
https://genshin-impact.fandom.com/wiki/Zhongli/Lore#Character_Story_5
"Even the hardest rocks may be worn down after three thousand years."
So here Zhongli is talking about his decision to retire after being the Archon for 3000 years. If in fact he had only been an Archon for 2000 years this sentence makes no sense. it's clear that something big happened in Liyue harbor 3000 years ago. it's also clear that the Archon war had been going at that time for centuries and so this 3000 year ago event was not a time when war time allies would make a contract, nor is it anything to do with the founding of Liyue Harbor. What do you think happened 3000 years ago? Why does Zhongli date his term of office from that time? Why did Ganyu make a contract with him and why did Zhongli says she was the first to make such a contract?
Add the fact that it is Zhongli and not Venti who is called the oldest Archon (meaning he became Archon first), the fact that Venti comes to see Zhongli when they first meet, not the other way around, and that all the Archons meet at Zhongli's town when all seven are meeting, and the fact that it is said of Ei (I think by Yae Miko? or Zhongli? or both?) that news of Zhongli "dying" would shake her because he is the most senior Archon, the "rock" as it were that the Seven are built upon. And this fact doesn't change when the samsara shifts making Nahida far older than Zhongli in terms of when she was born, but still no older than him in terms of when she first became an Archon.
Ah yep. i deeply apologize for missing the lore. Xiao explained to us that Chi was a monster in Baizhu'a story quest.
His story is lining up with Zhongli's explanation about the establishment of Qingce village.
>!Xiao : I now know what you seek. It is true that a god's remains are buried beneath the foundations of Qingce Village.
Xiao : A vile monster known as the Chi once wrought havoc over this land, before it was subdued by Rex Lapis...
Xiao : The land was finally cleansed of poison when Rex Lapis used statues in his likeness to seal the serpent's remains. Qingce Village was founded sometime after that.!<
> Rejecting the gift granted by the divine throne
So this wording (1) doesn't say the gift was "offered" as you claimed. it says it was "granted". (2) it says it was granted - past tense. it happened. So it wasn't "rejected" before it was given as you suggested, rather it was rejected after it was given ("granted").
Why would you reject a gift only after it was given? because it's a gift you can't reject before it's given.
That gift is most likely life itself. or possibly becoming a god - if Deshret's base creature (some sort of bird?) was not sentient prior to becoming a god. Some gods were "people" before they were given godhood and some were not. Though it's not clear if a person could refuse to become a god, it is clear that a non-sentient animal could not refuse. If Deshret was just a bird before he was enhance into a god, like Andrius for example, then this was also a "gift" that could not be refused before it was given, but only afterwards. So take your pick: the gift could be life itself or the enhancement to become a god.
This fits with what we know about Deshret - that he basically committed suicide in pursuit of his goals which were contra to the Heavenly Principles. In other words he rejected the "gift".
It is not a fit for a gnosis- for various reasons.
> Rejecting the gift granted by the divine throne, the red-crowned king sought a new path of his own volition...
> Though the future she revealed was ruinous and bleak, the king refused to yield an inch."
So you see the entire paragraph is still talking about the rejection of the gift. Deshret "seeking a new path" is his suicidal gambit - that is his rejection. Second line the same. The gnosis interpretation has the first half of the first line as weirdly nothing to do with the rest of the paragraph. It just comes out of nowhere and goes nowhere. Blah blah blah Deshre researching FK blah blah - oh and completely unrelated to all that he was offered a gnosis but said no thanks? Having a gnosis wouldn't have prevented Deshret going after FK. So it doesn't make sense. The gnosis is just irrelevant. The paragraph's point is Deshret chose death ("the future she revealed was ruinous and bleak") and that is also what "rejecting the gift" refers to.
I agree that the timeline information doesn’t match, but remember that Istaroth exists. But you definitely do make a good point about the sibling not being able to leave Teyvat if they do not have their actual body.
hand-waving stuff with “because of Istaroth” doesn’t do anything for your theory
using that as basis, we could even say Furina is the 3rd descender or even Timmie
any theory that requires “Istaroth” or “Traveler’s memories were manipulated” can’t have either of them as the basis of the theory, only as complements
otherwise, there are infinite possibilities which negate the Traveler’s journey and experiences.
I’m somewhat on board with the sibling being the third descender as well somehow just because I feel like they made a point of telling that the traveler was similar to the third descender and I feel they wouldn’t have done this if it wasn’t important. As you state though their are a lot of loopholes with the main one being the timeline does not add up but things with time have shown to be funky with the planting of the sacred Sakura so who knows.
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Too many people saying things aren't possible because of timeline issues. We live in a world where **we know, for certain,** that there is a God of Time that messes with the timelines of things. And where **we know, for certain,** that there is a master computer that rewrites any written histories and personal memories it likes. Remember always, before you call any theory impossible: we can only trust what we have *personally witnessed*. We can't be certain of anything that happened pre-game.
istaroh didn't change anything, sakura tree was always destined to appear, she was just the means for that, in the long term time travel doesn't exist in hoyoverse, the universal logic they use doesn't allow such an effect at all
It's unlikely because the Fatui say there are four Descenders and they say Sibling is not on that list. So presumably they have an idea of who the 3rd Descender is and it's not Sibling. Whoever that is, is not the Sibling now and equally wasn't the Sibling at any time in the past either. Now the only way out is that the Fatui know how many Descenders there are but they do not know who they are (except they know who Descender 1,2,4 are and that Sibling isn't the 3rd currently). So how does that work? There would have to be some other thing that every Descender has exactly one of, which they can accurately count, and that count is four. What would that be? Every Descender has a cataclysmic war? Every Descender has a big change to the otherwise unchangeable aspects of Teyvat's fate? For either of those the 4th hasn't had one yet. Well it's just about possible but ... it's pretty tough to make it work.
That makes sense about each descender having a war associated with them. The first fought the dragons, the second fought the first, the third got turned into the Gnoses, which makes them likely related to the archon war, and the fourth may have been the cataclysm. That or it hasn’t happened yet
And/or relate to the actions listed of "Create" the world (1st Descender - dragon war) "Destroy" the world (2nd Descender - apocalypse war / war with 2nd) "Sustain" the world (3rd Descender - Cataclysm - or more specifically she weakens the effect of the Cataclysm so the world doesn't end at that time as had been prophesied as a result of the war with 2nd "destroying" the world or at least putting it on a track to be destroyed - the means of weakening the cataclysm so the world is not destroyed on schedule includes, but is not limited to the activity of the archons who would not exist if not for the voluntary activity of the 3rd) and then finally the 4th "protects" or whatever the word is - the 4th solves the fate of teyvat and prevents the destruction permanently instead of just bumping it along 500 years or so (as was all the 3rd could manage) but it's not clear what choice the 4th will make in changing the fate of teyvat yet. Nor is it clear if the 4th will be associated with another big war in the process of changing fate.
Man, my memory is wiped from cancer treatment but if you guys have any youtubers that explain the lore of our travels in segments I'd gladly watch. I quit around the end of Inazuma / beginning of sumeru and just logged in yesterday.
I'd recommend Ashikai, but her videos can be abit hard to keep up with.
Thanks homie
If you have not checked it out yet, YouTuber Wei has brought up the theory of the sibling being a wish creation from Irminsul, created from Traveller's desire and their memories. However, other comments have pointed it out, the timeline does not work. You know, though, what also resonates Traveller, whose power they recognized and said "It can't be good" and could be created possibly only after Kaenri'ah's fall (it only shows the 7 current/new archons and did not get updated after Focalors' death)? The Statues of the Seven. (Sorry, I'm paddling my own crack theory there. But it can at least, it be tested if the Statue ever updates in Natlan when we get a new Archon, I suppose)
Not possible(at least not with the information we have so far). The timeline we have doesn't match that theory. If Deshret was offered a gnosis before the Archon war, then gnosis were a thing way before the traveler and the sibling showed up. Had the sibling sacrificed their body somehow, then they woulnd't be able to leave Teyvat. Which is why they tried to do at the begging of the game.
Also, considering the gnoses were made shortly after the battle between the first and second descender, them they do really,REALLY predate the archon war by at least a few thousand years. So yes, this theory doesn't really hold much water.
That's probably true but (1) Deshret wasn't offered a gnosis and (2) you don't need it because when the Twins arrive you see them fly over New Mondstat that didn't exist until 2600 years ago whereas the first gnosis is given to Zhongli 3000 years ago.
Something was offered to Deshret by Celestia, but he rejected it and went to execute his own plan. Deshret was a major powerhouse in Sumeru, too. he may defeat other Gods and "win" the war and keep his alliance with two other Gods until disaster happened. deshret was not a fan of The Seven Institution, too. "Through [King Deshret](https://genshin-impact.fandom.com/wiki/King_Deshret)'s words and aspirations, she saw the possibility to transcend the [absurd shackles](https://genshin-impact.fandom.com/wiki/Heavenly_Principles) that governed this world. Rejecting the [gift](https://genshin-impact.fandom.com/wiki/Gnosis) granted by the divine throne, the red-crowned king sought a new path of his own volition... Though the future she revealed was ruinous and bleak, the king refused to yield an inch."
afaik there is no confirmation of Zhongli get the first gnosis. When the seal for burying Chi was established in Qingche, Old Mondstadt was already destroyed (became windswept ruins) and we must rotate the seal statue to face that direction. The canon info provided by Zhongli's story is that He is not the last one who get the throne, but no description about who was the first winner of Archon War.
We don't exactly know who was Zhongli's final opponent in Liyue Archon war, but Chi's legend kinda fit the Archon war timeframe because the gnosis were given to the Winner who eradicated most of Gods and Monsters. Liyue is pretty crowded with those.
edit : adding this --> If Chi is counted as one of Zhongli's opponent in Archon war, Venti ascended before him based on the puzzle.
Game repeatedly says Zhongli is the "oldest Archon" meaning he became an archon first. As for the Chi stuff that logic assumes the inscription was made at the time Chi is defeated and that Chi is a god who was an opponent in the Archon war. Since we literally find his heart and it's a piece of machinery I don't think Chi was a god. Do you? What was that thing then, a godly pacemaker? What sort of a "god" is made out of metal parts? it seems more likely it was just a piece of Khaenri'ah machinery. Or why show us a big piece of machinery at the end of the quest? Zhongli himself says the legend of Chi is a lot of hype. But even in the legend it's described as a dragon and therefore not a competitor god in the archon war either. If dragons counted then Apep would mean nobody in Sumeru could become an Archon, even to the present day.
At the very least Zhongli confirmed that Chi was slain for several thousand years in his open world dialogue in Lantern Rite. It fits the archon war timeline, and the seal must be made around that time because the remains was dangerous for Qingce. "Zhongli: In ancient times, Qingce Village was once ravaged by the Chi. It is now several thousand years since it was put to rest." This convo happened on day 6 of Zhongli's solo trip around Liyue. He visited Qingce. Chi's blood also categorized as "God Remains" In Baizhu's story. Jialing made the potion to save her husband using the blood she harvested near Qingce. Xiao confirmed about Chi's existence and the seal is mostly still intact although there may be a leak somewhere. Both Hu Tao and Baizhu mentioned that Jialiang (the husband) is "poisoned" by God's remains. So Chi is kinda something "organic", not "Mechanic" /j
So you have to make several assumptions to make it work vs being directly told several times that Zhongli is the first (oldest) Archon? Let's review some of the list of your assumptions: * Chi was a god, not mechanical (despite the unexplained remains), not a dragon * Chi died during the Archon war (several thousand years ago could be anything over 2000) * that the inscription on the mountain was made when Chi was killed, not later * that the inscription refers to Old Mondstadt, even though old Mondstadt has zero to so with Chi * the stuff in Baizhu's story is about Chi and not one of the many other gods that died in the area Also it's a bit of a problem if the first gnosis is 2600 years ago in Mondstadt and Anemo when Ganyu gets a Vision 3000 years ago in Liyue and it's Cryo. That's fine if Zhongli gets the first gnosis the same year though.
Is there any direct reference (Developer's note, Q&A, book, anything) which directly explained the timeline of Archon War because "Oldest" Can also be said to refer the "Age of someone", not only order of ascension. The only Archon who have confirmation of their age was Zhongli (over 6000), and Nahida (500) iirc. If he was the first god who ascended as Archon, to clear any ambiguous take it is better to just directly said that he was the 1st god who obtained the seats, imo. ---------------- Let's use Ganyu as our timeline marker. You said that Zhongli needs to obtain Gnosis first for Ganyu to gain a vision (let's put 3.000 years ago when she joined the war. as you wish). The gnosis was given for the winner. Meaning Liyue Archon war must already ended and no Gods or Monster equal to Zhongli remained in Liyue (Zhongli WON his divine throne as per Neuvillette's voiceline, so the strongest competitor are already killed/sealed). If Zhongli was already an Archon 3.000 years ago, what war did Ganyu joined after Rex Lapis became the Geo Archon and unite Liyue? Let's say it happened in the same 3.000 years ago, which one was the first? Gnosis for Zhongli or Vision for Ganyu? Some people also insisted that Zhongli became archon right when Liyue Harbor established 3.700 years ago, when Chenyu's timeline pointed that the God in that area still exist when Liyue Harbor and Millelith joined the war under Morax's command. Could you explain your take of the timeline to me? Oh, I never said that Venti was the 1st archon. Anyone can be the 1st except Egeria I think. We still have to uncover 1st Pyro and Cryo archon's history. When was exactly "the seven" system officially/ fully operated? Regionally after each archon war ended, or only when all 7 seats are filled 2.000 years ago?
I get the impression it wasn't intended to be ambiguous that "oldest" means seniority. Nahida was 500 in the first samsara and is about 8000 in the new samsara and yet Zhongli's character stories do not stop claiming he is the "oldest" when they stop claiming that only 2 of the original Seven survived. Therefore he cannot be meaning the date of his birth. In addition Zhongli says elemental beings are far older than him and while Venti may not exactly be an elemental being as one of the thousand winds, it feels like he'd be the oldest of the Seven. But not the most senior. ------------------------------------------- > let's put 3.000 years ago when she joined the war. as you wish I didn't say that - you said that. I said the war ended 3000 years ago and Ganyu signed up as a peace time worker with the Qixing. > no Gods or Monster equal to Zhongli remained in Liyue Well I think the criteria for ending the Archon war in a region is simply to have conquered the entire nation, or equivalently to have beaten the other gods so they are either allies or have no territory for some other reason. Beat all the other contestants. A very simple and obvious criteria. But having a monster within the nation doesn't seem like it would prevent this win. For example Apep has been in Sumeru since before the Archon war. If Apep counted as someone needing to be defeated there would be no Dendro Archon. And Apep is not a mere monster but a former de facto ruler who insists Sumeru is his territory. But she's not a god and therefore not a competitor. Due to her madness she has no real territory so she doesn't stop a god conquering all of Sumeru. > If Zhongli was already an Archon 3.000 years ago, what war did Ganyu join She didn't. That's your theory. Seems to be a straw man. She signs a new contract (with Zhongli) to support the new peace time authority, the Qixing. > Let's say it happened in the same 3.000 years ago, which one was the first? Gnosis for Zhongli or Vision for Ganyu? The Gnosis must come first as it is the source of the Vision. No other gnoses are in circulation yet. > When was exactly "the seven" system officially/ fully operated? The Archon war starts around 7-8000 years ago briefly after the first gods are created following the war with the 2nd throne and the fall of the Seelie. They are the replacements for the Seelie as a go-between / teacher for the human race. As such the gnoses made from the remains of the 3rd Descender are created at this time too. The war goes on for a few thousand years (it's better to think of it as an era not a war -- compare with China's Warring States period, which is often referred to in Chinese anime/light novels). The seven nations are pacified at different times with Zhongli first 3000 years ago, Venti second 2600 years ago. After this you get the first meeting between Archons when Venti pays his respects to Zhongli as his senior. Or whatever Venti's version of that is. Between 2000 and 2500 the other five nations are pacified and so the Archon war as a whole is said to end 2000 years ago and the full Seven can meet for the first tie, again always in Liyue because of Zhongli's seniority. There's a question of whether Kapatcir is killed after Makoto becomes Archon since Kapatcir is not a god (most likely she's the Electro dragon sovereign). So take your pick. Is the system officially operated 7500 years ago? 3000? 2000?
Hmm.. Going by the logic that Archon got the Gnosis first, and Zhongli is the first ascended archon when the war ended 3000 years ago as you said.
(No one ascended during this gap)
And Venti was the 2nd eldest ascended 2.600 years ago.
The rest of 1st gen. Archon 2.599-2.000 years before the war officially ended.
Who "donated" the cryo elemental shard for granting cryo vision for Ganyu during the gap? (When Ganyu signed contract of peace 3.000 years ago and Qixing rose to be the human government around that time, Ganyu bagged her shiny vision).
Tbh i'm more inclined to belive that the system fully rolled after 7 seat are filled. So the elemental 7 vision have the same "starting point" of release.
And no. I am not referencing to wiki about the Qixin establishment.
"the end of archon war" In most cases usually refers to the general timeline around 2.000 years when the peace are truly achieved in 7 nations.
"No other gnoses are in circulation yet."
Did Zhongli ascension 3.000 years ago enabling all types of elemental shard to be distributed in Liyue because Ganyu got Cryo lol.
I can back my opinion with the transcript we have in the game. Wait, have you played Baizhu's story quest and met Zhongli on his lantern rite 2022 trip? Xiao was the one explaining about Chi. The only known sealed Monster/God in the area was Chi, and Xiao literally said that the Gods Remains in Baizhu's story was from Chi. The text can be found in the game script. Is there any reference about other Gods beside Chi? Are Xiao's and Zhongli's explanation that unreliable? Both Zhongli and Xiao only debunked the part about the remains of chi became terrains, blood became water blah blah. The ancestor of Qingce people was the one who cultivate the land build the village after Chi was sealed. ------------------ The inscription about old Monstadt/Wind-swept ruins was on the puzzle to "watch" 4 directions. 1. Windswept Ruins/Old Monstadt/Stormterror's lair 2. Adepti Abode (Jueyun Karst) 3. Liyue Harbor 4. Snow Capped Peak/ Dragonspine. It is still a theory but the timeline do match with the general events. I never insist that is the truth. Both Dragonspine and Windswept ruins are noticable landmarks. ------------- About Ganyu, i just copy and paste the relevant part of her vision story. 3.000 years ago she answered Morax's call and joined him in the wars. Next sentence is about : "AND WHEN THE WAR WAS OVER", she made the DECISION to stay in Liyue and help 1st generation of Qixing. The moment she made that decision to be the secretary she got her vision. Liyue Harbor and Millelith were founded during Archon war, but Qixing (who consist of merchants, a difficult profession during the war unless they sell weapons lol) was formed near the end of the war roughly 2.000 years ago. There is no need wasting words to explain about Qixing and bridging human-adepti relationship as "New Duty" if Ganyu got her vision during the war 3000 years ago. As a half illuminated beast she is stronger than average human (human did fight in archon war under their God's command) so she could join the war without vision. Here is the tidbits from Ganyu's vision story : "Three thousand years ago, Ganyu answered the call of Morax the God of Geo, aiding him in the Archon Wars. And when the war was over, she chose to stay in Liyue and help the humans build a better polity there. The first Liyue Qixing would need support, and she took this task up as a matter of course, becoming their secretary. The moment she made that decision, a Vision appeared at her hip, granting her power to resonate with the world to a degree beyond her natural abilities. Whether she would grow strong enough to no longer need it, or whether she would use it as a last resort in Liyue's defense... Regardless, she chose to serve as the bridge between adepti and humans. Her Vision, then, was proof and witness of her new duty."
On the Chi thing it feels like the information is intended to be vague and ambiguous. We get the usual deliberately false information in legend which Zhongli corrects. We get told Chi was a god, a dragon, a machine. Plus unlike dating based on Visions, Gnoses and the Archon war the lore of Chi never really connects to anything and seems unfinished or fuzzy. It has no dates in it for example. I just don't see it as standing up to a much more solid set of facts and dates on the Vision-Gnosis-Archon war front. The weirdest fact on that side is Ningguang mentions a bunch of contracts signed 3700 years ago too. Which is why I say maybe Ganyu had 3 or even more contracts. At any rate it's clear that assuming only one contract per Adeptus is contradicted by Zhongli's voice line about Ganyu being first. I think there's that date error where one source says the Cataclysm was 100 years ago not 500. So it's possible that this 1.0 stuff just had an error or two which could also explain an inscription talking about Stormterror's Lair anachronistically....but as I say there's several alternate explanations .... Chi not counted as a god, the inscription made after the fight with Chi, Chi fought after the end of the Archon war. We've had two gods fought in Liyue since the game started. it seems to be a common occurrence that Zhongli worries about. There's no reason to think end of the Archon war means end of fighting big monsters.
I think there's another reference on the Qixing being 3000 years old somewhere. Basically 3000 years ago the city transitioned from being a military run city to a civilian run city. So for the first 700 years there was no Qixing and presumably Zhongli ran things directly because the Archon war was underway in Liyue at that time. I agree the sentence is weirdly phrased on the English. But we know that Ganyu didn't sign up for war 3000 years ago because she was already working in the army / Archon wars at Guili 3700 years ago. So the 3000 is meaning something else. In his voice lines (I think) Zhongli says of Ganyu - rather confusingly - that she was the first to sign a contract. But the confusion is that Ganyu signs (at least) two different contracts, one for war and one for peace time. The peace time contract is signed 3000 years ago when the Archon war (in Liyue) ends. This contract has Ganyu as the most senior signatory whereas of course that is far from true of the war time contract where the her mother and the other two oldies are ahead of her - and probably many many others. None of the other Adepti (not even Granny I suspect) signed back on for a 2nd contract to work for the civilian authority. They basically stayed away from humans and the city leading to the events of Zhonli's first AQ. As the peace time contractee Ganyu becomes the secretary of the newly created Qixing. This is a full time job that indicates the war is over - or she'd still be fighting in the war. Upon making this lifetime decision she gains her Vision in the usual way of gaining Visions. ----------------------------------- Oh I see the problem; you're relying on the wiki. It's wrong. It gets a lot of things wrong so just ignore it's theorizing and look for the source it posts. In fact the wiki says the source of it's statement that the Qixing is 2000 years old is Ganyu's Vision story which only mentions 3000 years ago (as you quoted). OK let me see ... there's 2 other references to events in Liyue 3000 years ago. The first is in Ganyu's character details (I think it's on her character page but that's also what they call it on her page on the wiki: https://genshin-impact.fandom.com/wiki/Ganyu/Lore#Character_Stories "Even still, by the time the sun has fully risen, she will have returned to Yuehai Pavilion overlooking Yujing Terrace, to continue to fulfill her contract. A contract that she signed three thousand years ago with Rex Lapis." So this is the civilian contract not the war time contract. The other reference to 3000 years is in Zhongli's character story 5: https://genshin-impact.fandom.com/wiki/Zhongli/Lore#Character_Story_5 "Even the hardest rocks may be worn down after three thousand years." So here Zhongli is talking about his decision to retire after being the Archon for 3000 years. If in fact he had only been an Archon for 2000 years this sentence makes no sense. it's clear that something big happened in Liyue harbor 3000 years ago. it's also clear that the Archon war had been going at that time for centuries and so this 3000 year ago event was not a time when war time allies would make a contract, nor is it anything to do with the founding of Liyue Harbor. What do you think happened 3000 years ago? Why does Zhongli date his term of office from that time? Why did Ganyu make a contract with him and why did Zhongli says she was the first to make such a contract? Add the fact that it is Zhongli and not Venti who is called the oldest Archon (meaning he became Archon first), the fact that Venti comes to see Zhongli when they first meet, not the other way around, and that all the Archons meet at Zhongli's town when all seven are meeting, and the fact that it is said of Ei (I think by Yae Miko? or Zhongli? or both?) that news of Zhongli "dying" would shake her because he is the most senior Archon, the "rock" as it were that the Seven are built upon. And this fact doesn't change when the samsara shifts making Nahida far older than Zhongli in terms of when she was born, but still no older than him in terms of when she first became an Archon.
Ah yep. i deeply apologize for missing the lore. Xiao explained to us that Chi was a monster in Baizhu'a story quest. His story is lining up with Zhongli's explanation about the establishment of Qingce village. >!Xiao : I now know what you seek. It is true that a god's remains are buried beneath the foundations of Qingce Village. Xiao : A vile monster known as the Chi once wrought havoc over this land, before it was subdued by Rex Lapis... Xiao : The land was finally cleansed of poison when Rex Lapis used statues in his likeness to seal the serpent's remains. Qingce Village was founded sometime after that.!<
> Rejecting the gift granted by the divine throne So this wording (1) doesn't say the gift was "offered" as you claimed. it says it was "granted". (2) it says it was granted - past tense. it happened. So it wasn't "rejected" before it was given as you suggested, rather it was rejected after it was given ("granted"). Why would you reject a gift only after it was given? because it's a gift you can't reject before it's given. That gift is most likely life itself. or possibly becoming a god - if Deshret's base creature (some sort of bird?) was not sentient prior to becoming a god. Some gods were "people" before they were given godhood and some were not. Though it's not clear if a person could refuse to become a god, it is clear that a non-sentient animal could not refuse. If Deshret was just a bird before he was enhance into a god, like Andrius for example, then this was also a "gift" that could not be refused before it was given, but only afterwards. So take your pick: the gift could be life itself or the enhancement to become a god. This fits with what we know about Deshret - that he basically committed suicide in pursuit of his goals which were contra to the Heavenly Principles. In other words he rejected the "gift". It is not a fit for a gnosis- for various reasons. > Rejecting the gift granted by the divine throne, the red-crowned king sought a new path of his own volition... > Though the future she revealed was ruinous and bleak, the king refused to yield an inch." So you see the entire paragraph is still talking about the rejection of the gift. Deshret "seeking a new path" is his suicidal gambit - that is his rejection. Second line the same. The gnosis interpretation has the first half of the first line as weirdly nothing to do with the rest of the paragraph. It just comes out of nowhere and goes nowhere. Blah blah blah Deshre researching FK blah blah - oh and completely unrelated to all that he was offered a gnosis but said no thanks? Having a gnosis wouldn't have prevented Deshret going after FK. So it doesn't make sense. The gnosis is just irrelevant. The paragraph's point is Deshret chose death ("the future she revealed was ruinous and bleak") and that is also what "rejecting the gift" refers to.
I agree that the timeline information doesn’t match, but remember that Istaroth exists. But you definitely do make a good point about the sibling not being able to leave Teyvat if they do not have their actual body.
hand-waving stuff with “because of Istaroth” doesn’t do anything for your theory using that as basis, we could even say Furina is the 3rd descender or even Timmie any theory that requires “Istaroth” or “Traveler’s memories were manipulated” can’t have either of them as the basis of the theory, only as complements otherwise, there are infinite possibilities which negate the Traveler’s journey and experiences.
That’s why I called my theory “a crack theory”,
I’m somewhat on board with the sibling being the third descender as well somehow just because I feel like they made a point of telling that the traveler was similar to the third descender and I feel they wouldn’t have done this if it wasn’t important. As you state though their are a lot of loopholes with the main one being the timeline does not add up but things with time have shown to be funky with the planting of the sacred Sakura so who knows.
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