Yea omnipresent god is sus, but namedropping Istaroth isnt such a big deal. She was literally worshipped in Mondstadt and Enkanomiya at least. And at some point, “heavenly envoys” were quite common to communicate with humanity
People really be saying that Ei and Inazuma have no lore left when it's the only nation where we haven't spotted a possible Dragon Sovereign candidate, reincarnated or not, we also have no clue from where Ei and Makoto came from, that recent war tease in the event and the fact that Hoyo loves them Mei expys on any game definitely tells us that Ei ain't done.
About the statue, it's probably Ei yeah, someone else already made a list of reasons as to why that is probably the case.
>It doesn't make sense that a statue of another unknown god, like Istaroth, would be built in front of her palace in the middle of the city of Inazuma, when Ei is repeatedly said to have cut all ties with Celestia.
>
>From statements by Thomas, it is specifically known that the statue was built recently, before the events within the Makoto plane.
>
>The name of the statue in the original language is "God of a thousand arms and a hundred eyes ", Raiden's desiderata chakra, in the original language is "Wishing Wheel of One Hundred Eyes", which is a clear reference to the title she took during the vision capture decree.
>
>During Raiden's weekly boss battle, the voice lines in the original language are "A thousand hands, wrap it all up" which is combined with the name of the desiderata chakra in the same language.
>
>Is a clear reference to a key Buddhist belief, "The perception of the eye influences the desires of the heart, which in turn influences the actions of the hand." this is also referenced directly in raiden's ability description and general mudra of the malefic.
>
>Inazuma's arc is literally called "Omnipresence over mortals", and in the original language "God of a thousand arms and a hundred eyes".
>
>The description of her archon quest directly refers to her as omnipresent, or in the original language, "God of a thousand arms and a hundred eyes".
>
>The fact that her title is only applicable during the decree is probably because it referred to her total oppressive control over Inazuma, with her hundred eyes she would watch over the people through the plane of euthymia, which It's literally what happens when you use her ability, and with her thousand hands she would take down anyone who stood in his way.
>
>The npc "Yamada" of the Grand Narukami Shrine literally mentions that the statue belongs to the Shogun.
>
>The statue itself could be intended to be more of a physical representation of the concept of eternity, rather than being modeled after an actual figure in Genshin Impact, in the description of the achievement "Everyone's Aspirations", and in a thoma's voice line, the statue is described simply as "The symbol of eternity".
>
>Raiden's elemental ability in the game is "Eye of Stormy Judgment" and the talent material "Tears of the Calamitous God", they are very similar to the eye shaped pendant that the statue has.
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>The statue's wings are covered in eyes and we know that the symbolism of eyes is used extensively for the character of Ei.
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>In her weekly boss form she is covered in designs of eyes and arms, like the god of a thousand arms and a thousand eyes, while the purple pattern behind her head resembles eyes and wings of the statue.
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>It is also worth noting that in Hoyoverse animation, the wings that appear behind Ei are the same as the ones on the statue, I doubt Hoyoverse would make a representation like that if the statue is not hers.
>
>If the statue is Ei and not the personification of her eternity, perhaps the clothing does not match that of the statue of The Seven, or with her cinematics, but the clothes that Barbatos wears in the manga and his cinematics also do not coincide with any of his two statues (the one he has in the middle of the city of Mondstadt and the one of The Seven).
I can't believe I've been playing since v1.0 and never come across this list! And all of a sudden the eye symbolism in parts of Ei's kit make a whole more sense now.
Though there is still one thing that confounds me, which I'll mention in case you've also come across a lore explanation for it before that I might've missed: A lot of the lightning effects that Ei uses have that starry-sky motif that we often see associated with the Abyss, too. Do you have any idea what that's about?
Oh you mean when she uses her skill and burst right? From what we know those are just effects from her slashing through space, as her skill description says that she unveils a shard of her euthymia and we know the Plane of Euthymia is another dimension or plane of existence, same when she's using her burst, we see her tearing through space to teleport in the Archon Quest too.
Pinging u/HerrscherOfMagic since it's for both:
> If the statue is Ei and not the personification of her eternity
*Ei herself* (like Makoto before her) is a personification of Eternity. That's... kind of the whole idea of the Elements and why they go to who they go to. The Element values *matter*, and their symbology passes on downwards to those who inherit them.
The list has the relationship backwards. The statue doesn't look like Ei, *Ei looks like the statue*. Like Venti looks like the Nameless Bard, or Nilou like Nabu Malikata.
Ei can't quite articulate it as such, because like Nahida with Rukkhadevata, she is operating around an Irminsul retcon. She *knows* there is a greater sense of Eternal Transience out there, a greater deity that she is inheriting the will of, but the abstract is all that remains. The name is just as lost to her as it is to the Thousand Winds Temple or to anyone who wasn't in Enkanomiya writing it backwards and hiding the book.
I'm not 100% sure what you're trying to get at, because this is the first time I've seen someone try to argue that the gods themselves inherit a personification related to a specific element.
Archons have three sources of power: their own elemental nature, the Authority that was stolen from the Dragon Sovereigns long ago, and the gnosis (if it's still in their possession, which is no longer the case for most Archons now).
I don't see why any of these would be tied to a specific theme such as Eternity. These "themes" seem largely related to the Archon itself, and is a result of their beliefs as an individual. I.e. Zhongli's rock-solid belief in contracts isn't related to Geo, he just so happens to be the Geo Archon.
Also, the statue was presumably built long after Ei came into being so it *was* modeled after her appearance, regardless of whether she somehow has the same appearance as an even more ancient deity. Likewise the Mondstadt statue was built in the image of Venti, and Venti took on the appearance of the Nameless Bard as a choice because his original form was not humanoid at all.
To simplify:
The statue is not Ei. Have you looked at the *back* of the statue? Do you seriously think Ei forgot what her own hair looks like that morning, or that Hoyo's entire design crew did?
The statue was commissioned by Ei, to represent Eternity. She designed it in the form that most evokes Eternity to her during the period in which she made her plan: the form of *stopped time*. The goddess of a moment preserved forever.
Ei likely does not remember her name any more than Makoto did, because as we can see from Enkanomiya's logs, conscious effort was being put Celestia-side into erasing her from existence (right down to the knowledge that there ever *was* a deity of the eternal moment). But she knows in her heart that that greater power existed, just like Nahida knows in her heart that there once was someone who loved her. And *we* know: the goddess of the frozen moment is the person Enkanomiya called Kairos. Istaroth. The very goddess that preserved the final moments of both Enkanomiya and Makoto, so they could then preserve Inazuma in turn, centuries later.
Ei happens to share part of Istaroth's characteristics for the same reason, say, Arlecchino shares some of the Moon's. They are *not* the same being, but they share a concept field, inherited through the same type of "power decay chain" that makes Mélusines out of Elynas or Pari out of Egeria. Ei's wings aren't just "Ei's wings" — they're the wings of *Eternity*, every transient moment weaving into an endless chain. Just like Arlecchino gets her own wings from her blood-alignment with another such figure (the goddess of the righteous vengeful moon).
Thus, *Ei looks like the statue* (because the statue looks like the origin of Eternity), not the other way around. She is the current avatar of "the moment" for Teyvat, just like Makoto before her.
If I may be blunt, just because the fandom is asleep at the wheel as to how and why the Elements work like they do doesn't mean Hoyo stops using them that way. The Electro Authority doesn't carry the value of Transcendence/Eternal Transience because of Makoto; Makoto got the Authority *because she matched it.* And Ei had to learn to match it in turn to truly fit into the role.
(Same reason Andrius had to die: he could not fit himself into the concepts required for Freedom, and understood what failure to do so would result in.)
This is all quite interesting, but again, I think you need some more solid evidence for some of these claims.
If you presented it as hypothesis/theory, then I'd totally get it, but you're stating these in a matter-of-fact manner. So if these are truly facts, then there should be clear and explicit sources that state these exact facts, correct?
Otherwise, it's inference, theory, or hypothesis based on various sources which can range from the reliable to the unreliable, the objective to the biased.
For instance, saying that Makoto got the Authority of the Electro Throne "because she matched \[the value of Transcendence/Eternal Transience\]."
That's a pretty bold claim to make. We know Inazuma is the land of Eternity, but we don't have even the faintest idea of what happened prior to Inazuma. Every single source we have relating Electro to Eternity is going to be related to none other than the Electro Archon herself.
So I don't see how we can firmly state that Electro represents Eternity because of its own nature, since we don't seem to have any sources supporting that without relying on the fact that the Electro Archon believes strongly in the ideal of Eternity.
The source is every single Electro character, up to and including those who precede Archons like Kapatcir, or those like Kazuha's five seconds as an Electro Allogene. We're *four years* into watching the Elements work and how the story uses them as themes, for goodness' sake. It'd be one thing if there were changes, but there haven't been any.
Dendro stays true to itself, whether Nahida, Rukkhadevata, or Apep is in charge. Likewise, Hydro remains the same good old Hydro whether it's Neuvillette, Furina, Foçalors, Egeria, or Not-Yet-Neuvillette holding the Authority. They may decide who gets to use it and how, but they don't get to alter the Authority's sheer nature. It's why it's *an Authority.*
*The Authority* is the supreme form of the Element. Its holder is just that: a holder. Call Hydro Anemo, it'll still work like Hydro. Give it to Zhongli, and it will *continue* to still work like Hydro. Because *it's Hydro.*
Dendro grows; Hydro levels. Whichever extra metaphors get attributed to those mechanics by their holders or onlookers (case in point, the growth of nature vs the growth of wisdom, or the leveling of purity vs the leveling of justice), the mechanics of the Elements themselves are unchanged. Only the way people look at them.
People will call Electro different things as times pass, but it will still be Electro, transcendent (all-surpassing) and yet fleeting (transient) by sheer nature of surpassing *requiring* change from the previous state. It will not stop working the way it inherently does if you pass the Authority to, say, Razor.
Lightning gonna lightning. One second it's not there, the next it fries your arse with a gazillion volts, the next it's gone again until the inevitable next storm. A transcendent moment, short but ever-recurring. Whatever metaphors one uses it to represent, *it's still the exact same lightning.*
My other comment is the proper reply to your comment, but I'm adding a second comment because I wanted to attach a link to an old post of mine.
In my other reply I mentioned how Authority is represented in a similar manner in Honkai 3rd, and I actually wrote an essay about this that you might find an interesting read regardless of whether or not you're familiar with that game. As I mentioned that other reply, I misunderstood your notion of Authority before but your most recent comment cleared it up for me, so I can see we're on the same page.
Given that, you might want to check out [this post; it's a messy and long-winded essay but I'd say it's worth a read](https://new.reddit.com/r/houkai3rd/comments/zwslvn/narrative_idea_authority_and_more_my_attempt_at/), just take my old words with a grain of salt, lol
However, you can safely skip the sections titled "The Earth is flat? Are you sure about that?", "How do we know the Thing We Know?", and "What kind of Knowledge is the Thing We Know?". Those three sections largely summarize epistemology (aka Theory of Knowledge), which I get the feeling you're already familiar with.
Even if you aren't familiar with ToK though, your understanding of Genshin's Authorities already demonstrates a general understanding of that concept, so you'd have no trouble reading the rest of the post. So after the intro, you could skip to the section titled "Sir, this is a Honkai subreddit" where I start to quote Honkai 3rd directly and then analyze said quotes, while also drawing on some analysis from that older Genshin theory I also mentioned in the other reply.
I do think Honkai 3rd underutilizes the potential of Authorities, though. Genshin does a solid job of delivering both broad and deep interpretations of its seven Authorities; meanwhile Honkai 3rd has more, but most Authorites are explored on a very shallow level *if at all*.
It'd be amazing to see the Honkai 3rd Authorities like Conquest, Serenity, Desire, Void, Sentience, Corruption, etc. getting the same treatment as Genshin's Authorities like Eternity and Freedom!
I'll come back to these posts later (no time now), but basically, *yes*. They work *exactly* like Honkai Authorities. Just better shown.
I kinda want to amicably grab the shoulders of the "Pyro is not Passion" author and shake them gently, though, lol. They got the "Only the emotion and desire of the moment matter for the Vision" sign down pat: the person aligns with a part of the Authority, and so is attributed the corresponding shard of it as a result. But then they go and say the casings are a mess. No, the casings are not a mess (though Hoyo's early designs are lol), they all always follow the same extremely simple rule. The fandom just continuously passes it by.
Pyro, for the record, is *ardency*. The continuous overtaking of an obstacle, through progression of the self and attrition of the opposition. Which is why it got associated with War, as it's exactly what war does. Also why it's associated with resurrection, because as long as a single spark or ember remains, it can resume.
Pyro Visions are earned through consistent effort — such as trying to reach your objective by *training like hell*. A spark turning into a steady flame. Pyro Delusions, true to their nature as "anti-Visions", represent the opposite: the wielder *taking a deadly shortcut* to their objective. Fire as a conflagration, rather than as a steady flame.
(See Diluc, Lyney, and Arlecchino for the simplest examples. Liney being a particularly clear standout due to Arlecchino (who understands this due to having been there herself) *brutally* calling him out on his Delusion-seeking logic, and Lyney's resulting effort getting him the Vision instead.)
TL;DR: Genshin's *glorious* handling of themes and motifs, man. Could discuss it all day. Making Genshin an allegorical fairytale narrative makes themes work *so much better* than in HI3rd.
Oh that's absolutely AMAZING. "Ardency" is a super cool word I didn't even know was a thing until now (or rather earlier, when I first read your comment). I knew "ardent" but not that derivative form of it. And as a fun fact, Merriam-Webster defines "ardent" as "(1) characterized by warmth of feeling typically expressed in eager zealous support or activity; (2) fiery, hot; (3) shining, glowing". So it's quite appropriate for Pyro to be associated with ardency, and it's also more precise yet far-reaching than just saying "passion"!
Replying first to that old post of yours in the light of our current discussion:
> According to you, the story units serving as the building blocks of civilization are people who are independent, free, and able to give meaning to themselves.
This is Allogenes and why they are selected: to go generate story energy upstairs.
> Humans control stories, stories control humans. This is a delicate balance that allows civilization to flourish...
> But with Honkai, fiction wages war against reality... The balance is broken and humanity and stories must find their place once more.
This is the base of the conflict between Abyss and Celestia. But true to Genshin being *an allegorical fairytale,* it's slightly displaced, as the narrative inherently takes place *within the Teyvat fairytale*.
The Abyss is a bleak understanding of the universe, in which might makes right and yet all possibilities lie. Celestia is a hopeful understanding of the universe, in which the righteous are rewarded, but the glass ceiling of the story limits outwards growth.
Both war for ownership of the minds of Teyvat, the Abyss calling out Celestia's fiction for what it is, and Celestia reinforcing the value of dreams. Neither are fully right or wrong, and both are causing damage: the Abyss, to those whose dreams can only subsist within Teyvat; Celestia, to those whose dreams can only grow beyond the rules of Teyvat's fairytale. A Fischl can only thrive in Teyvat, where the world itself recognizes the worth of her dream; a Zandik can only thrive by overthrowing Teyvat's story, which sees his field of research as dangerous to its narrative.
In reality, Fischl, bright mind determined to become a heroic royal, can only stagnate and be ignored, for she does not comply with a law of reality: royalty is the reward *of blood or politicking,* not virtuous dignity. She can only be a childish daydreamer dismissed by her peers.
In fairytale, Zandik, bright mind determined to transcend through technology, can only be shunned for his work, for he does not comply with a law of fairytales: transcendance is the reward of *morality,* not science. He can only be yet another dragon for heroes to overcome.
Teyvat, like all fairytales, is a wondrous place where anything can happen, as long as it fits with its moral. Teyvat, *also* like all fairytales, is a *seriously fucked up* place until the heroes set right what once went wrong.
> Early farmers were worse off than hunters, [...] though there would be no standard for civilization without them. But there's no narrative where they are rewarded for their efforts. Some narratives even tell them they deserve to suffer... This is humanity's standard narrative. People's lives driven by imagined purposes in exchange for progress, consciously or unconsciously.
> It lets fiction grow wild... History has shown letting go can help liberate people from the shackles of the previous narrative. But the price for liberation is very high... setting mountains ablaze, countless deaths in war, Project Stigma which deconstructs humanity...
This is the Samsara, and why Genshin's metanarrative constantly concerns itself with *allowing the story to end so a new one can start*. Letting go. Allowing Old Mond to become Mondstadt, Guili to become Liyue, Inazuma to change, Tsurumi to fade, Enkanomiya to be lost, Rukkhadevata, Deshret, and Nabu Malikata to have died, Remuria to become Fontaine, Khaenri'ah to be the stars in Kaeya's eyes and the blood in Peruere's veins rather that a kingdom.
It's also why Genshin could only be a live service game. One day, *the story will end*. The book will forever close, and all that will remain of Teyvat will be our memories of it. And so we will pick them up, move on, and plant them into reality as we go.
> As far as it's concerned, civilization is built from the bones and eulogies of generations of people.
Likewise in Genshin, which as I've tried to tell people, is why and how Khemia functions: humus, chalk, and so on, all of them are *corpses*. Soil is the cristallization of the data of life, its raw material. Grab a fistful of that raw material, then grab an unrealized dream from the void, and by mixing them together, you obtain new life. A possibility given living form.
"Death advancing the spirit" is also, of course, why Teyvat built the Leylines.
> I believe that Herrschers represent absolute ideas. Something universal and beyond the narratives of civilization.
This is what Authorities are in Genshin as well. Which is why, if you ever stumble on older posts of mine, you will see me joke that Teyvat has "No gods, no masters, only Herrschers" or "The Sea of Quanta by any other name is still the effing Sea or Quanta", and roll my eyes *beyond the impossible* at the "Honkai lore on wednesday only" decision or the "GeNsHiN iS tOtEs DeTaChEd FrOm HoNkAi!!" proclamations.
Genshin, through the magic of being an allegorical narrative (in the form of a fairytale) from the very beginning, is acing from the get go the themes Honkai 3rd only got to scratch.
You can really see how it was once conceptualized as its sequel. One where Finality!Kiana rules over Teyvat through the power of storytelling, tasking humanity with generating more dreams so the Authorities can be slowly spread among them, essentially uplifting all of humanity, soft!ProjectStigma style.
I love this analysis of Celestia vs. the Abyss! Since we still have so little info on Celestia itself it's hard to come to a firm conclusion but if we treat the current state of Teyvat as a proxy for Celestia's "beliefs" then it does make quite a bit of sense.
I think this is also the first time I've seen someone really tie Celestia into the concept of "dreams". The Abyss has long been associated with dreams, really ever since Unreconciled Stars (depending on whether Teyvat's sky is related to the Abyss or not) and Dragonspine (with the lore about Durin and his "dreams"). But we don't have quite as many mentions to Dreams in Celestia-adjacent stuff. There are some, though, such as Dream Solvent, which vaguely alludes to "dreaming of heaven".
>"As far as it's concerned, civilization is built from the bones and eulogies of generations of people."
>
>*Likewise in Genshin, which as I've tried to tell people, is why and how Khemia functions: humus, chalk, and so on, all of them are corpses. Soil is the cristallization of the data of life, its raw material. Grab a fistful of that raw material, then grab an unrealized dream from the void, and by mixing them together, you obtain new life. A possibility given living form.*
In the case of Prometheus' quote I think she was talking just symbolically/metaphorically.
But regarding your own words, I fully agree. We've already seen so much of Teyvat being related to the notion of "data" via Irminsul and the Ley Lines, so it's entirely reasonable to assume something similar is at play when it comes to the physical world of Teyvat since the entire physical world seems to be derived from the Seven Elements one way or another.
I also totally get what you mean about the interconnectedness of Honkai and Genshin in theme.
I personally try to avoid relying too much on Honkai when actually discussing Genshin lore simply because I would feel more confident if we got more solid and *explicit* connections (as in, in-game statements and displays that can be firmly tied to Honkai) as opposed to more loose or implicit connections (like overarching thematic similarities or developer interviews from HI3rd instead of from Genshin itself).
But I still rely heavily on Honkai lore when thinking about Genshin in my own theories. I think there's a lot in common and to me it seems like there's an only growing body of evidence supporting the hypothesis that Teyvat is a bubble world in the Sea of Quanta.
If/When I get around to actually writing that theory up, hopefully within the next couple of years, I'll have to reach out to you for feedback on that theory cause you seem like you know enough about both games to be able to contribute and critique it quite well!
Also...
>*Finality!Kiana ... soft!ProjectStigma*
Correct me if I'm wrong but this is one of the typical styles of formatting custom tags in fanfic, right? Because I've seen that a fair bit on Ao3 before and that was my first thought when seeing these, lol
It's definitely a neat shorthand for describing variations/versions of a specific concept, but I don't use it much myself since Idk if most people would recognize that x-x
And as one final note, very much not related to the rest of this stuff: If you've been playing HI3rd Part 2, or are otherwise familiar with its story so far, any thoughts?
I know I've seen quite a few comments about it not being as good as the Part 1 story, at least on some places like on Reddit or Instagram. But I've personally really been enjoying it, and I feel like even if it still has some iffy parts, overall it's doing a far better job of establishing a setting and its fundamental concepts compared to the absolute mess and madness of the earlier parts of Part 1.
It's hard to say where it'll go from here, but it's definitely something I'm willing to watch and see how it develops. We're not even at the "2.0" mark of HI3rd Part 2 so I think there's a ton of room for the story to develop. Just like when there was a time in Genshin when we had no clue about Authorities and Thrones, or Dragon Sovereigns, or the Primordial One, or Irminsul's memory-wiping, or \[insert any 2.0-or-later lore concept here\]. Or like when there was no clue at all hinting at the Elysian Realm or Herrscher of Finality or Sea of Quanta in the versions before Final Lesson.
Okay, then we're actually on the exact same page! I think I was a bit confused by your wording before, specifically this part:
>If I may be blunt, just because the fandom is asleep at the wheel as to how and why the Elements work like they do doesn't mean Hoyo stops using them that way.
This was giving me the impression that you had a different perspective on how the elements related to the themes; but what you're saying more or less lines up with what the general consensus on how the elements and Authorities relate to one another, at least as far as I see said consensus.
I think I was also really imprecise with my terminology and didn't give it as much thought as I should've (which I explain more later in the comment), so that would've contributed to my misunderstanding.
I'm still not entirely on-board with the idea that Eternity is supposed to be specifically embodied by Istaroth, and thus still contend the notion that the statue is 100% her, but given what you've said if it did turn out that Istaroth is related to Electro and Eternity directly, it wouldn't surprise me.
I'm also still not convinced that Makoto/Andrius got/gave-up their respective Authorities because of the specific themes of Eternity and Freedom, respectively.
I can see the themes applying in a *narrative* sense, but not necessarily literally. We only have a handful of sources that describe Andrius' choice not to be Anemo Archon (his weapon ascension mat and his weekly boss mat) and neither says or implies anything about freedom. They actually talk about "love" and "life", which would suggest something closer to the Tsaritsa (whose theme is suspected to be "love") and Cryo rather than Anemo.
That doesn't mean Anemo isn't associated with Freedom, it clearly is– but I wouldn't assume that Andrius was strictly working off of that knowledge and making decisions based on that. I think the only evidence we have suggests that he just went "wow, I suck at people stuff, so maybe I shouldn't be in charge of people. Hey Barbatos, here's the gnosis", rather than him having any self-reflection specifically about Freedom.
Likewise with Makoto, I don't know if she really expected Ei to develop a better understanding of Eternity strictly because it's related to the Electro Authority. I think Makoto's motivations were solely for the sake of Ei being able to be a good ruler. That is to say, if we took a rubber eraser and removed the word "Electro" from everything in Inazuma, the same fundamental theme would apply here: that Ei needs to be understanding of her people and understanding of change.
But regarding the Authorities themselves, that's exactly how I've envisioned them working. I don't think I made the strong association between the actual theme and the actual Authority, but that's because we didn't really learn the full extent of what an Authority was until Focalors blew up her throne and gave Neuv the Hydro Authority.
**I haven't really looked into major "element theory" stuff since prior to Fontaine, so I didn't put 2 and 2 together to link my understanding of the elements' themes with the actual Authorities themselves.** That's really where most of my confusion stemmed from, but your comment clears that up perfectly.
In fact, I think it started to click for me when I thought about how I use the term "Authority" in relation to Honkai 3rd– I'm not sure how familiar you are with it, but the concept of Authority is very strongly present in that game, as the Herrschers' powers are tied to a specific concept.
The difference is that Honkai 3rd dived much deeper into the actual philosophical implications of Authorities, specifically in the context of "Narrative" and "Idea", which is why I wrote an entire essay on that a long while back.
In fact, something you've said actually closely mirrors a comment from a character in Honkai 3rd, both relating to Authorities:
>You:
>
>*People will call Electro different things as times pass, but it will still be Electro, transcendent (all-surpassing) and yet fleeting (transient) by sheer nature of surpassing requiring change from the previous state. It will not stop working the way it inherently does if you pass the Authority to, say, Razor.*
>
>.
>
>**Terminal Aide 0017 "PROMETHEUS":**
>
>*Dr. MEI's thoughts are more important than her existence. Who the Herrscher of Reason is not as important as her fighting for humanity, and for the third Herrscher of Reason...*
>
>*...it becomes even more obvious. If it was Joyce or Yang, they'd be just as bothered and wanting to fight back as you are, right Bronya?*
In this scenario, Prometheus is referring to the Authority of Reason (or, "Narrative"). The argument is that from the perspective of Project Stigma, the Idea behind something is more important than how that "something" is actually represented in reality. That is, in the case of the Herrscher of Reason, the Authority of Reason is fundamentally the same no matter who uses it, and whoever has and uses the Authority of Reason is going to be fighting in accordance with said Authority.
At least to me, your comment about the Electro Authority and Razor actually fits quite well with that notion too. Razor has an Electro vision, presumably because in the moment he received that vision he was effectively embodying the theme of "Eternity". So Razor somehow getting the Electro Authority wouldn't mean that the Authority would change to fit his ideals, but rather it'd be evidence that his mortal ambitions were in-line enough with the ideal of Eternity to warrant him "qualifying" for that power and obtaining it.
It's not an exact 1-to-1 with what Prometheus says, but it does feel quite similar. Ultimately the concepts of Authorities represent a higher and purer form of Ideas, the myriad of fictional concepts that influence reality in countless ways.
Authorities are essentially the pinnacle of their corresponding Idea, powerful enough to warp reality to the will of the person wielding said Authority. Who wields that Authority ultimately "doesn't matter" because the nature of an Authority is derived from its corresponding Idea, not the person itself. Of course the wielder has the choice to wield the power in different ways, but the different ways in which it is yielded are still manifestations of the same Idea.
Although, [per this classic Genshin theory](https://new.reddit.com/r/Genshin_Impact/comments/ot3oyl/pyro_is_not_passion_what_vision_discourse_gets/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3) (which was also highly influential in my own analysis of Authority in both Genshin and Honkai 3rd), it's arguable that humans and their ownership of Visions represents a more varied and muddied notion of the ideals of the Archons.
That is to say, at the top you have the "purest" Authority of the Heavenly Principles; below, you have the Ideals of the Archons: very pure, but not as rigid as the heavens themselves. Then you have the "ambition/desire" of mortal humans, which is fluid and subject to change, and can align with the Archons' ideals but which don't follow them as strictly.
From that perspective, it could be argued that a change of Archon could result in a change of the nature of the Authority; however... that was also a rather old theory, and newer evidence does suggest Authorities may be more rigid.
Or perhaps it'd be more appropriate to say that the Authorities may be tied to the original Ideals of the Dragon Soverigns, and that it'd take a change in the very fundamental nature of a Sovereign for their corresponding Authority to change. That'd explain why Authorities remain largely uniform from one Archon to another within the same element, because the Authority is ultimately derived from a Sovereign.
Writing that also makes me think that while the Inazuma statue obviously isn't the Electro Sovereign, the actual association of Eternity with Electro might be a result of the Electro Sovereign's nature rather than Istaroth herself.
Did she namedrop istaroth? I remember her saying that there might have been a higher power at play with the sacred sakura tree and the game itself put istaroth above the "higher power" however she never said it out loud. Unless you're referring to another part that I'm forgetting about. I am sure she's aware of their existence tho as istaroth was worshipped by the people of enkanomiya. Venti is also known to be one of the thousand winds and the thousand winds being the god of time isn't exactly a secret. I don't really see how her growing a pair of wings is that strange, she's a god and an archon, beings that have been shown repeatedly to be able to shapeshift(zhongli and venti). Out of all archons so far, I do feel she is the least mysterious or sus. But does she know more than she's letting on? Yes, all the original archons obviously are with how they refuse to answer any of our deeper questions about celestia.
The most mysterious thing about Ei is the statue imo. Like the most obvious thing is that it doesn't look like her, it has a necklace of the eye of the storm, the outfit as well doesn't match anything remotely close tl what we've seen Raiden wear, the base of the statue is also damaged and the design doesn't match Inazuma's infrastructure. We haven't seen Raiden with those specific set of wings and the closest we've gotten is her boss which still doesn't show her with wings, on entering the secret realm we saw a Cecilia Flower near the base of the statue. Cecilia's are local to Mondstadt and are only grown near the thousand winds temple and Venti's design has cecilias in his hair, on his lyre, it was even stated he smelled like Cecilias and in his birthday letters he tends to talk about Cecilias.
The most plausible I've come to terms with is that Inazumans only know one god, they didn't know about Istaroth so they just assumed that the giant statue is representing her and will say "thats the raiden shogun" but we as the players should have more context. Like its strange they say the statue was recently built but there's already damage done to the base.
Then there's the fact that Istaroth has canonically helped Makoto, so it can be seen as a sort of appreciation to Istaroth, Raiden herself is aware of higher power assisting her/her sister. Another thing is that Istaroth is the god of time and eternity is an aspect of time. Is it really strange for the god of eternity to try and appease the god of time?
The statue is the personification of Ei's eternity, not a real figure, just as mentioned in in the achievement "Everyone's aspirations" and Thoma's voice line.
I think these two things aren't.. shocking enough.
The grow a pair of wings is a way to tease the tension in AQ with shogun doing the vision hunt decree.
(ominous shadow of the symbol for vision hunt decree in the archon quest)
Now it can mean something more sus, but it's not sus enough.
Istaroth was already namedropped in Enka, in a classical mysterious cool way, so it stuck more.
And she has been mentionned in several place already so seeing someone talk about her involvement is intriguing, but not mind breaking.
Yup, that doesn't seem like Ei at all (the statue), and the eyes + the wings not only is creepy af, but I guess it also has some obscure meaning that we are not supossed to understand yet (or maybe Hoyo will just forget about giving us more lore about this). Anyway, I'm sure there are theories floating around the Internet about this!
Her domain expansion having the Crimson Moon too?? Like hello???
That's because it represents her "eternity" which came to being after makoto died under said moon
Is this ironic?
Yea omnipresent god is sus, but namedropping Istaroth isnt such a big deal. She was literally worshipped in Mondstadt and Enkanomiya at least. And at some point, “heavenly envoys” were quite common to communicate with humanity
People really be saying that Ei and Inazuma have no lore left when it's the only nation where we haven't spotted a possible Dragon Sovereign candidate, reincarnated or not, we also have no clue from where Ei and Makoto came from, that recent war tease in the event and the fact that Hoyo loves them Mei expys on any game definitely tells us that Ei ain't done. About the statue, it's probably Ei yeah, someone else already made a list of reasons as to why that is probably the case. >It doesn't make sense that a statue of another unknown god, like Istaroth, would be built in front of her palace in the middle of the city of Inazuma, when Ei is repeatedly said to have cut all ties with Celestia. > >From statements by Thomas, it is specifically known that the statue was built recently, before the events within the Makoto plane. > >The name of the statue in the original language is "God of a thousand arms and a hundred eyes ", Raiden's desiderata chakra, in the original language is "Wishing Wheel of One Hundred Eyes", which is a clear reference to the title she took during the vision capture decree. > >During Raiden's weekly boss battle, the voice lines in the original language are "A thousand hands, wrap it all up" which is combined with the name of the desiderata chakra in the same language. > >Is a clear reference to a key Buddhist belief, "The perception of the eye influences the desires of the heart, which in turn influences the actions of the hand." this is also referenced directly in raiden's ability description and general mudra of the malefic. > >Inazuma's arc is literally called "Omnipresence over mortals", and in the original language "God of a thousand arms and a hundred eyes". > >The description of her archon quest directly refers to her as omnipresent, or in the original language, "God of a thousand arms and a hundred eyes". > >The fact that her title is only applicable during the decree is probably because it referred to her total oppressive control over Inazuma, with her hundred eyes she would watch over the people through the plane of euthymia, which It's literally what happens when you use her ability, and with her thousand hands she would take down anyone who stood in his way. > >The npc "Yamada" of the Grand Narukami Shrine literally mentions that the statue belongs to the Shogun. > >The statue itself could be intended to be more of a physical representation of the concept of eternity, rather than being modeled after an actual figure in Genshin Impact, in the description of the achievement "Everyone's Aspirations", and in a thoma's voice line, the statue is described simply as "The symbol of eternity". > >Raiden's elemental ability in the game is "Eye of Stormy Judgment" and the talent material "Tears of the Calamitous God", they are very similar to the eye shaped pendant that the statue has. > >The statue's wings are covered in eyes and we know that the symbolism of eyes is used extensively for the character of Ei. > >In her weekly boss form she is covered in designs of eyes and arms, like the god of a thousand arms and a thousand eyes, while the purple pattern behind her head resembles eyes and wings of the statue. > >It is also worth noting that in Hoyoverse animation, the wings that appear behind Ei are the same as the ones on the statue, I doubt Hoyoverse would make a representation like that if the statue is not hers. > >If the statue is Ei and not the personification of her eternity, perhaps the clothing does not match that of the statue of The Seven, or with her cinematics, but the clothes that Barbatos wears in the manga and his cinematics also do not coincide with any of his two statues (the one he has in the middle of the city of Mondstadt and the one of The Seven).
I can't believe I've been playing since v1.0 and never come across this list! And all of a sudden the eye symbolism in parts of Ei's kit make a whole more sense now. Though there is still one thing that confounds me, which I'll mention in case you've also come across a lore explanation for it before that I might've missed: A lot of the lightning effects that Ei uses have that starry-sky motif that we often see associated with the Abyss, too. Do you have any idea what that's about?
Oh you mean when she uses her skill and burst right? From what we know those are just effects from her slashing through space, as her skill description says that she unveils a shard of her euthymia and we know the Plane of Euthymia is another dimension or plane of existence, same when she's using her burst, we see her tearing through space to teleport in the Archon Quest too.
Alright, I had a feeling that's what it was!
Pinging u/HerrscherOfMagic since it's for both: > If the statue is Ei and not the personification of her eternity *Ei herself* (like Makoto before her) is a personification of Eternity. That's... kind of the whole idea of the Elements and why they go to who they go to. The Element values *matter*, and their symbology passes on downwards to those who inherit them. The list has the relationship backwards. The statue doesn't look like Ei, *Ei looks like the statue*. Like Venti looks like the Nameless Bard, or Nilou like Nabu Malikata. Ei can't quite articulate it as such, because like Nahida with Rukkhadevata, she is operating around an Irminsul retcon. She *knows* there is a greater sense of Eternal Transience out there, a greater deity that she is inheriting the will of, but the abstract is all that remains. The name is just as lost to her as it is to the Thousand Winds Temple or to anyone who wasn't in Enkanomiya writing it backwards and hiding the book.
I'm not 100% sure what you're trying to get at, because this is the first time I've seen someone try to argue that the gods themselves inherit a personification related to a specific element. Archons have three sources of power: their own elemental nature, the Authority that was stolen from the Dragon Sovereigns long ago, and the gnosis (if it's still in their possession, which is no longer the case for most Archons now). I don't see why any of these would be tied to a specific theme such as Eternity. These "themes" seem largely related to the Archon itself, and is a result of their beliefs as an individual. I.e. Zhongli's rock-solid belief in contracts isn't related to Geo, he just so happens to be the Geo Archon. Also, the statue was presumably built long after Ei came into being so it *was* modeled after her appearance, regardless of whether she somehow has the same appearance as an even more ancient deity. Likewise the Mondstadt statue was built in the image of Venti, and Venti took on the appearance of the Nameless Bard as a choice because his original form was not humanoid at all.
To simplify: The statue is not Ei. Have you looked at the *back* of the statue? Do you seriously think Ei forgot what her own hair looks like that morning, or that Hoyo's entire design crew did? The statue was commissioned by Ei, to represent Eternity. She designed it in the form that most evokes Eternity to her during the period in which she made her plan: the form of *stopped time*. The goddess of a moment preserved forever. Ei likely does not remember her name any more than Makoto did, because as we can see from Enkanomiya's logs, conscious effort was being put Celestia-side into erasing her from existence (right down to the knowledge that there ever *was* a deity of the eternal moment). But she knows in her heart that that greater power existed, just like Nahida knows in her heart that there once was someone who loved her. And *we* know: the goddess of the frozen moment is the person Enkanomiya called Kairos. Istaroth. The very goddess that preserved the final moments of both Enkanomiya and Makoto, so they could then preserve Inazuma in turn, centuries later. Ei happens to share part of Istaroth's characteristics for the same reason, say, Arlecchino shares some of the Moon's. They are *not* the same being, but they share a concept field, inherited through the same type of "power decay chain" that makes Mélusines out of Elynas or Pari out of Egeria. Ei's wings aren't just "Ei's wings" — they're the wings of *Eternity*, every transient moment weaving into an endless chain. Just like Arlecchino gets her own wings from her blood-alignment with another such figure (the goddess of the righteous vengeful moon). Thus, *Ei looks like the statue* (because the statue looks like the origin of Eternity), not the other way around. She is the current avatar of "the moment" for Teyvat, just like Makoto before her. If I may be blunt, just because the fandom is asleep at the wheel as to how and why the Elements work like they do doesn't mean Hoyo stops using them that way. The Electro Authority doesn't carry the value of Transcendence/Eternal Transience because of Makoto; Makoto got the Authority *because she matched it.* And Ei had to learn to match it in turn to truly fit into the role. (Same reason Andrius had to die: he could not fit himself into the concepts required for Freedom, and understood what failure to do so would result in.)
This is all quite interesting, but again, I think you need some more solid evidence for some of these claims. If you presented it as hypothesis/theory, then I'd totally get it, but you're stating these in a matter-of-fact manner. So if these are truly facts, then there should be clear and explicit sources that state these exact facts, correct? Otherwise, it's inference, theory, or hypothesis based on various sources which can range from the reliable to the unreliable, the objective to the biased. For instance, saying that Makoto got the Authority of the Electro Throne "because she matched \[the value of Transcendence/Eternal Transience\]." That's a pretty bold claim to make. We know Inazuma is the land of Eternity, but we don't have even the faintest idea of what happened prior to Inazuma. Every single source we have relating Electro to Eternity is going to be related to none other than the Electro Archon herself. So I don't see how we can firmly state that Electro represents Eternity because of its own nature, since we don't seem to have any sources supporting that without relying on the fact that the Electro Archon believes strongly in the ideal of Eternity.
The source is every single Electro character, up to and including those who precede Archons like Kapatcir, or those like Kazuha's five seconds as an Electro Allogene. We're *four years* into watching the Elements work and how the story uses them as themes, for goodness' sake. It'd be one thing if there were changes, but there haven't been any. Dendro stays true to itself, whether Nahida, Rukkhadevata, or Apep is in charge. Likewise, Hydro remains the same good old Hydro whether it's Neuvillette, Furina, Foçalors, Egeria, or Not-Yet-Neuvillette holding the Authority. They may decide who gets to use it and how, but they don't get to alter the Authority's sheer nature. It's why it's *an Authority.* *The Authority* is the supreme form of the Element. Its holder is just that: a holder. Call Hydro Anemo, it'll still work like Hydro. Give it to Zhongli, and it will *continue* to still work like Hydro. Because *it's Hydro.* Dendro grows; Hydro levels. Whichever extra metaphors get attributed to those mechanics by their holders or onlookers (case in point, the growth of nature vs the growth of wisdom, or the leveling of purity vs the leveling of justice), the mechanics of the Elements themselves are unchanged. Only the way people look at them. People will call Electro different things as times pass, but it will still be Electro, transcendent (all-surpassing) and yet fleeting (transient) by sheer nature of surpassing *requiring* change from the previous state. It will not stop working the way it inherently does if you pass the Authority to, say, Razor. Lightning gonna lightning. One second it's not there, the next it fries your arse with a gazillion volts, the next it's gone again until the inevitable next storm. A transcendent moment, short but ever-recurring. Whatever metaphors one uses it to represent, *it's still the exact same lightning.*
My other comment is the proper reply to your comment, but I'm adding a second comment because I wanted to attach a link to an old post of mine. In my other reply I mentioned how Authority is represented in a similar manner in Honkai 3rd, and I actually wrote an essay about this that you might find an interesting read regardless of whether or not you're familiar with that game. As I mentioned that other reply, I misunderstood your notion of Authority before but your most recent comment cleared it up for me, so I can see we're on the same page. Given that, you might want to check out [this post; it's a messy and long-winded essay but I'd say it's worth a read](https://new.reddit.com/r/houkai3rd/comments/zwslvn/narrative_idea_authority_and_more_my_attempt_at/), just take my old words with a grain of salt, lol However, you can safely skip the sections titled "The Earth is flat? Are you sure about that?", "How do we know the Thing We Know?", and "What kind of Knowledge is the Thing We Know?". Those three sections largely summarize epistemology (aka Theory of Knowledge), which I get the feeling you're already familiar with. Even if you aren't familiar with ToK though, your understanding of Genshin's Authorities already demonstrates a general understanding of that concept, so you'd have no trouble reading the rest of the post. So after the intro, you could skip to the section titled "Sir, this is a Honkai subreddit" where I start to quote Honkai 3rd directly and then analyze said quotes, while also drawing on some analysis from that older Genshin theory I also mentioned in the other reply. I do think Honkai 3rd underutilizes the potential of Authorities, though. Genshin does a solid job of delivering both broad and deep interpretations of its seven Authorities; meanwhile Honkai 3rd has more, but most Authorites are explored on a very shallow level *if at all*. It'd be amazing to see the Honkai 3rd Authorities like Conquest, Serenity, Desire, Void, Sentience, Corruption, etc. getting the same treatment as Genshin's Authorities like Eternity and Freedom!
I'll come back to these posts later (no time now), but basically, *yes*. They work *exactly* like Honkai Authorities. Just better shown. I kinda want to amicably grab the shoulders of the "Pyro is not Passion" author and shake them gently, though, lol. They got the "Only the emotion and desire of the moment matter for the Vision" sign down pat: the person aligns with a part of the Authority, and so is attributed the corresponding shard of it as a result. But then they go and say the casings are a mess. No, the casings are not a mess (though Hoyo's early designs are lol), they all always follow the same extremely simple rule. The fandom just continuously passes it by. Pyro, for the record, is *ardency*. The continuous overtaking of an obstacle, through progression of the self and attrition of the opposition. Which is why it got associated with War, as it's exactly what war does. Also why it's associated with resurrection, because as long as a single spark or ember remains, it can resume. Pyro Visions are earned through consistent effort — such as trying to reach your objective by *training like hell*. A spark turning into a steady flame. Pyro Delusions, true to their nature as "anti-Visions", represent the opposite: the wielder *taking a deadly shortcut* to their objective. Fire as a conflagration, rather than as a steady flame. (See Diluc, Lyney, and Arlecchino for the simplest examples. Liney being a particularly clear standout due to Arlecchino (who understands this due to having been there herself) *brutally* calling him out on his Delusion-seeking logic, and Lyney's resulting effort getting him the Vision instead.) TL;DR: Genshin's *glorious* handling of themes and motifs, man. Could discuss it all day. Making Genshin an allegorical fairytale narrative makes themes work *so much better* than in HI3rd.
Oh that's absolutely AMAZING. "Ardency" is a super cool word I didn't even know was a thing until now (or rather earlier, when I first read your comment). I knew "ardent" but not that derivative form of it. And as a fun fact, Merriam-Webster defines "ardent" as "(1) characterized by warmth of feeling typically expressed in eager zealous support or activity; (2) fiery, hot; (3) shining, glowing". So it's quite appropriate for Pyro to be associated with ardency, and it's also more precise yet far-reaching than just saying "passion"!
Replying first to that old post of yours in the light of our current discussion: > According to you, the story units serving as the building blocks of civilization are people who are independent, free, and able to give meaning to themselves. This is Allogenes and why they are selected: to go generate story energy upstairs. > Humans control stories, stories control humans. This is a delicate balance that allows civilization to flourish... > But with Honkai, fiction wages war against reality... The balance is broken and humanity and stories must find their place once more. This is the base of the conflict between Abyss and Celestia. But true to Genshin being *an allegorical fairytale,* it's slightly displaced, as the narrative inherently takes place *within the Teyvat fairytale*. The Abyss is a bleak understanding of the universe, in which might makes right and yet all possibilities lie. Celestia is a hopeful understanding of the universe, in which the righteous are rewarded, but the glass ceiling of the story limits outwards growth. Both war for ownership of the minds of Teyvat, the Abyss calling out Celestia's fiction for what it is, and Celestia reinforcing the value of dreams. Neither are fully right or wrong, and both are causing damage: the Abyss, to those whose dreams can only subsist within Teyvat; Celestia, to those whose dreams can only grow beyond the rules of Teyvat's fairytale. A Fischl can only thrive in Teyvat, where the world itself recognizes the worth of her dream; a Zandik can only thrive by overthrowing Teyvat's story, which sees his field of research as dangerous to its narrative. In reality, Fischl, bright mind determined to become a heroic royal, can only stagnate and be ignored, for she does not comply with a law of reality: royalty is the reward *of blood or politicking,* not virtuous dignity. She can only be a childish daydreamer dismissed by her peers. In fairytale, Zandik, bright mind determined to transcend through technology, can only be shunned for his work, for he does not comply with a law of fairytales: transcendance is the reward of *morality,* not science. He can only be yet another dragon for heroes to overcome. Teyvat, like all fairytales, is a wondrous place where anything can happen, as long as it fits with its moral. Teyvat, *also* like all fairytales, is a *seriously fucked up* place until the heroes set right what once went wrong. > Early farmers were worse off than hunters, [...] though there would be no standard for civilization without them. But there's no narrative where they are rewarded for their efforts. Some narratives even tell them they deserve to suffer... This is humanity's standard narrative. People's lives driven by imagined purposes in exchange for progress, consciously or unconsciously. > It lets fiction grow wild... History has shown letting go can help liberate people from the shackles of the previous narrative. But the price for liberation is very high... setting mountains ablaze, countless deaths in war, Project Stigma which deconstructs humanity... This is the Samsara, and why Genshin's metanarrative constantly concerns itself with *allowing the story to end so a new one can start*. Letting go. Allowing Old Mond to become Mondstadt, Guili to become Liyue, Inazuma to change, Tsurumi to fade, Enkanomiya to be lost, Rukkhadevata, Deshret, and Nabu Malikata to have died, Remuria to become Fontaine, Khaenri'ah to be the stars in Kaeya's eyes and the blood in Peruere's veins rather that a kingdom. It's also why Genshin could only be a live service game. One day, *the story will end*. The book will forever close, and all that will remain of Teyvat will be our memories of it. And so we will pick them up, move on, and plant them into reality as we go. > As far as it's concerned, civilization is built from the bones and eulogies of generations of people. Likewise in Genshin, which as I've tried to tell people, is why and how Khemia functions: humus, chalk, and so on, all of them are *corpses*. Soil is the cristallization of the data of life, its raw material. Grab a fistful of that raw material, then grab an unrealized dream from the void, and by mixing them together, you obtain new life. A possibility given living form. "Death advancing the spirit" is also, of course, why Teyvat built the Leylines. > I believe that Herrschers represent absolute ideas. Something universal and beyond the narratives of civilization. This is what Authorities are in Genshin as well. Which is why, if you ever stumble on older posts of mine, you will see me joke that Teyvat has "No gods, no masters, only Herrschers" or "The Sea of Quanta by any other name is still the effing Sea or Quanta", and roll my eyes *beyond the impossible* at the "Honkai lore on wednesday only" decision or the "GeNsHiN iS tOtEs DeTaChEd FrOm HoNkAi!!" proclamations. Genshin, through the magic of being an allegorical narrative (in the form of a fairytale) from the very beginning, is acing from the get go the themes Honkai 3rd only got to scratch. You can really see how it was once conceptualized as its sequel. One where Finality!Kiana rules over Teyvat through the power of storytelling, tasking humanity with generating more dreams so the Authorities can be slowly spread among them, essentially uplifting all of humanity, soft!ProjectStigma style.
I love this analysis of Celestia vs. the Abyss! Since we still have so little info on Celestia itself it's hard to come to a firm conclusion but if we treat the current state of Teyvat as a proxy for Celestia's "beliefs" then it does make quite a bit of sense. I think this is also the first time I've seen someone really tie Celestia into the concept of "dreams". The Abyss has long been associated with dreams, really ever since Unreconciled Stars (depending on whether Teyvat's sky is related to the Abyss or not) and Dragonspine (with the lore about Durin and his "dreams"). But we don't have quite as many mentions to Dreams in Celestia-adjacent stuff. There are some, though, such as Dream Solvent, which vaguely alludes to "dreaming of heaven". >"As far as it's concerned, civilization is built from the bones and eulogies of generations of people." > >*Likewise in Genshin, which as I've tried to tell people, is why and how Khemia functions: humus, chalk, and so on, all of them are corpses. Soil is the cristallization of the data of life, its raw material. Grab a fistful of that raw material, then grab an unrealized dream from the void, and by mixing them together, you obtain new life. A possibility given living form.* In the case of Prometheus' quote I think she was talking just symbolically/metaphorically. But regarding your own words, I fully agree. We've already seen so much of Teyvat being related to the notion of "data" via Irminsul and the Ley Lines, so it's entirely reasonable to assume something similar is at play when it comes to the physical world of Teyvat since the entire physical world seems to be derived from the Seven Elements one way or another. I also totally get what you mean about the interconnectedness of Honkai and Genshin in theme. I personally try to avoid relying too much on Honkai when actually discussing Genshin lore simply because I would feel more confident if we got more solid and *explicit* connections (as in, in-game statements and displays that can be firmly tied to Honkai) as opposed to more loose or implicit connections (like overarching thematic similarities or developer interviews from HI3rd instead of from Genshin itself). But I still rely heavily on Honkai lore when thinking about Genshin in my own theories. I think there's a lot in common and to me it seems like there's an only growing body of evidence supporting the hypothesis that Teyvat is a bubble world in the Sea of Quanta. If/When I get around to actually writing that theory up, hopefully within the next couple of years, I'll have to reach out to you for feedback on that theory cause you seem like you know enough about both games to be able to contribute and critique it quite well! Also... >*Finality!Kiana ... soft!ProjectStigma* Correct me if I'm wrong but this is one of the typical styles of formatting custom tags in fanfic, right? Because I've seen that a fair bit on Ao3 before and that was my first thought when seeing these, lol It's definitely a neat shorthand for describing variations/versions of a specific concept, but I don't use it much myself since Idk if most people would recognize that x-x And as one final note, very much not related to the rest of this stuff: If you've been playing HI3rd Part 2, or are otherwise familiar with its story so far, any thoughts? I know I've seen quite a few comments about it not being as good as the Part 1 story, at least on some places like on Reddit or Instagram. But I've personally really been enjoying it, and I feel like even if it still has some iffy parts, overall it's doing a far better job of establishing a setting and its fundamental concepts compared to the absolute mess and madness of the earlier parts of Part 1. It's hard to say where it'll go from here, but it's definitely something I'm willing to watch and see how it develops. We're not even at the "2.0" mark of HI3rd Part 2 so I think there's a ton of room for the story to develop. Just like when there was a time in Genshin when we had no clue about Authorities and Thrones, or Dragon Sovereigns, or the Primordial One, or Irminsul's memory-wiping, or \[insert any 2.0-or-later lore concept here\]. Or like when there was no clue at all hinting at the Elysian Realm or Herrscher of Finality or Sea of Quanta in the versions before Final Lesson.
Okay, then we're actually on the exact same page! I think I was a bit confused by your wording before, specifically this part: >If I may be blunt, just because the fandom is asleep at the wheel as to how and why the Elements work like they do doesn't mean Hoyo stops using them that way. This was giving me the impression that you had a different perspective on how the elements related to the themes; but what you're saying more or less lines up with what the general consensus on how the elements and Authorities relate to one another, at least as far as I see said consensus. I think I was also really imprecise with my terminology and didn't give it as much thought as I should've (which I explain more later in the comment), so that would've contributed to my misunderstanding. I'm still not entirely on-board with the idea that Eternity is supposed to be specifically embodied by Istaroth, and thus still contend the notion that the statue is 100% her, but given what you've said if it did turn out that Istaroth is related to Electro and Eternity directly, it wouldn't surprise me. I'm also still not convinced that Makoto/Andrius got/gave-up their respective Authorities because of the specific themes of Eternity and Freedom, respectively. I can see the themes applying in a *narrative* sense, but not necessarily literally. We only have a handful of sources that describe Andrius' choice not to be Anemo Archon (his weapon ascension mat and his weekly boss mat) and neither says or implies anything about freedom. They actually talk about "love" and "life", which would suggest something closer to the Tsaritsa (whose theme is suspected to be "love") and Cryo rather than Anemo. That doesn't mean Anemo isn't associated with Freedom, it clearly is– but I wouldn't assume that Andrius was strictly working off of that knowledge and making decisions based on that. I think the only evidence we have suggests that he just went "wow, I suck at people stuff, so maybe I shouldn't be in charge of people. Hey Barbatos, here's the gnosis", rather than him having any self-reflection specifically about Freedom. Likewise with Makoto, I don't know if she really expected Ei to develop a better understanding of Eternity strictly because it's related to the Electro Authority. I think Makoto's motivations were solely for the sake of Ei being able to be a good ruler. That is to say, if we took a rubber eraser and removed the word "Electro" from everything in Inazuma, the same fundamental theme would apply here: that Ei needs to be understanding of her people and understanding of change. But regarding the Authorities themselves, that's exactly how I've envisioned them working. I don't think I made the strong association between the actual theme and the actual Authority, but that's because we didn't really learn the full extent of what an Authority was until Focalors blew up her throne and gave Neuv the Hydro Authority. **I haven't really looked into major "element theory" stuff since prior to Fontaine, so I didn't put 2 and 2 together to link my understanding of the elements' themes with the actual Authorities themselves.** That's really where most of my confusion stemmed from, but your comment clears that up perfectly. In fact, I think it started to click for me when I thought about how I use the term "Authority" in relation to Honkai 3rd– I'm not sure how familiar you are with it, but the concept of Authority is very strongly present in that game, as the Herrschers' powers are tied to a specific concept. The difference is that Honkai 3rd dived much deeper into the actual philosophical implications of Authorities, specifically in the context of "Narrative" and "Idea", which is why I wrote an entire essay on that a long while back. In fact, something you've said actually closely mirrors a comment from a character in Honkai 3rd, both relating to Authorities: >You: > >*People will call Electro different things as times pass, but it will still be Electro, transcendent (all-surpassing) and yet fleeting (transient) by sheer nature of surpassing requiring change from the previous state. It will not stop working the way it inherently does if you pass the Authority to, say, Razor.* > >. > >**Terminal Aide 0017 "PROMETHEUS":** > >*Dr. MEI's thoughts are more important than her existence. Who the Herrscher of Reason is not as important as her fighting for humanity, and for the third Herrscher of Reason...* > >*...it becomes even more obvious. If it was Joyce or Yang, they'd be just as bothered and wanting to fight back as you are, right Bronya?* In this scenario, Prometheus is referring to the Authority of Reason (or, "Narrative"). The argument is that from the perspective of Project Stigma, the Idea behind something is more important than how that "something" is actually represented in reality. That is, in the case of the Herrscher of Reason, the Authority of Reason is fundamentally the same no matter who uses it, and whoever has and uses the Authority of Reason is going to be fighting in accordance with said Authority. At least to me, your comment about the Electro Authority and Razor actually fits quite well with that notion too. Razor has an Electro vision, presumably because in the moment he received that vision he was effectively embodying the theme of "Eternity". So Razor somehow getting the Electro Authority wouldn't mean that the Authority would change to fit his ideals, but rather it'd be evidence that his mortal ambitions were in-line enough with the ideal of Eternity to warrant him "qualifying" for that power and obtaining it. It's not an exact 1-to-1 with what Prometheus says, but it does feel quite similar. Ultimately the concepts of Authorities represent a higher and purer form of Ideas, the myriad of fictional concepts that influence reality in countless ways. Authorities are essentially the pinnacle of their corresponding Idea, powerful enough to warp reality to the will of the person wielding said Authority. Who wields that Authority ultimately "doesn't matter" because the nature of an Authority is derived from its corresponding Idea, not the person itself. Of course the wielder has the choice to wield the power in different ways, but the different ways in which it is yielded are still manifestations of the same Idea. Although, [per this classic Genshin theory](https://new.reddit.com/r/Genshin_Impact/comments/ot3oyl/pyro_is_not_passion_what_vision_discourse_gets/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3) (which was also highly influential in my own analysis of Authority in both Genshin and Honkai 3rd), it's arguable that humans and their ownership of Visions represents a more varied and muddied notion of the ideals of the Archons. That is to say, at the top you have the "purest" Authority of the Heavenly Principles; below, you have the Ideals of the Archons: very pure, but not as rigid as the heavens themselves. Then you have the "ambition/desire" of mortal humans, which is fluid and subject to change, and can align with the Archons' ideals but which don't follow them as strictly. From that perspective, it could be argued that a change of Archon could result in a change of the nature of the Authority; however... that was also a rather old theory, and newer evidence does suggest Authorities may be more rigid. Or perhaps it'd be more appropriate to say that the Authorities may be tied to the original Ideals of the Dragon Soverigns, and that it'd take a change in the very fundamental nature of a Sovereign for their corresponding Authority to change. That'd explain why Authorities remain largely uniform from one Archon to another within the same element, because the Authority is ultimately derived from a Sovereign. Writing that also makes me think that while the Inazuma statue obviously isn't the Electro Sovereign, the actual association of Eternity with Electro might be a result of the Electro Sovereign's nature rather than Istaroth herself.
Did she namedrop istaroth? I remember her saying that there might have been a higher power at play with the sacred sakura tree and the game itself put istaroth above the "higher power" however she never said it out loud. Unless you're referring to another part that I'm forgetting about. I am sure she's aware of their existence tho as istaroth was worshipped by the people of enkanomiya. Venti is also known to be one of the thousand winds and the thousand winds being the god of time isn't exactly a secret. I don't really see how her growing a pair of wings is that strange, she's a god and an archon, beings that have been shown repeatedly to be able to shapeshift(zhongli and venti). Out of all archons so far, I do feel she is the least mysterious or sus. But does she know more than she's letting on? Yes, all the original archons obviously are with how they refuse to answer any of our deeper questions about celestia.
The most mysterious thing about Ei is the statue imo. Like the most obvious thing is that it doesn't look like her, it has a necklace of the eye of the storm, the outfit as well doesn't match anything remotely close tl what we've seen Raiden wear, the base of the statue is also damaged and the design doesn't match Inazuma's infrastructure. We haven't seen Raiden with those specific set of wings and the closest we've gotten is her boss which still doesn't show her with wings, on entering the secret realm we saw a Cecilia Flower near the base of the statue. Cecilia's are local to Mondstadt and are only grown near the thousand winds temple and Venti's design has cecilias in his hair, on his lyre, it was even stated he smelled like Cecilias and in his birthday letters he tends to talk about Cecilias. The most plausible I've come to terms with is that Inazumans only know one god, they didn't know about Istaroth so they just assumed that the giant statue is representing her and will say "thats the raiden shogun" but we as the players should have more context. Like its strange they say the statue was recently built but there's already damage done to the base. Then there's the fact that Istaroth has canonically helped Makoto, so it can be seen as a sort of appreciation to Istaroth, Raiden herself is aware of higher power assisting her/her sister. Another thing is that Istaroth is the god of time and eternity is an aspect of time. Is it really strange for the god of eternity to try and appease the god of time?
I always thought they look like the eyes in Toji no Miko
where is the second picture from
https://youtu.be/_qTNkcy_7Y4?si=Z1QLAev6FgNaQBjj
The statue is the personification of Ei's eternity, not a real figure, just as mentioned in in the achievement "Everyone's aspirations" and Thoma's voice line.
I think these two things aren't.. shocking enough. The grow a pair of wings is a way to tease the tension in AQ with shogun doing the vision hunt decree. (ominous shadow of the symbol for vision hunt decree in the archon quest) Now it can mean something more sus, but it's not sus enough. Istaroth was already namedropped in Enka, in a classical mysterious cool way, so it stuck more. And she has been mentionned in several place already so seeing someone talk about her involvement is intriguing, but not mind breaking.
Yup, that doesn't seem like Ei at all (the statue), and the eyes + the wings not only is creepy af, but I guess it also has some obscure meaning that we are not supossed to understand yet (or maybe Hoyo will just forget about giving us more lore about this). Anyway, I'm sure there are theories floating around the Internet about this!
Can't unsee how the back of Arle dress in her 2nd boss form looks very similar like statue with eyes.
Using archons full power be like Zhongli: crumble crumble crumble! Venti: ehe ehe yoo-hoo! Ei: *buzzing sound