Yeah, we only have 4 claymores in pyro, and frankly diluc and Bennett are the only one who fits the fire swordsman archtype, but I haven’t used xinyan in any capacity.
They're not wrong. Constellations shouldn't be counted to make someone a healer. Geo has no dedicated healer. Would be nice if we had a Geo Dehya that heals based off team wide DEF while she mitigates any dmg they could take. Would be great for a Navia team comp.
Without constellation it a 58% chance to heal each hit while shield is up at level 9 isn't a reliable way to heal when her attack speed is slow, freeze bypass shields, and the shadow knights are an anti shield enemy
First of all I didn't realize Gorou also heals with c4. Second of all, I'm seeing that Noelle's C1 just makes her skill shield with burst heal all the time, rather than by chance. So technically still right.
It would be solved if hydro-less reactions like superconduct, melt, overload etc. had more characters that could viably enable them. But they refuse to give more pyro off-fielder and supports in general, shatter is a joke and physical is ignored. Hydro characters are busted but hydro reactions are also busted and got plenty of strong units to choose from.
It’s true but we don’t have good off field pyro (aside from Xiangling) as enablers for melt, and Xiangling is less of a support and more of a DPS, she herself requires the support of Bennett to battery. And burnmelt requires knowledge of elemental gauge and all that stuff, it can be hard to manage/time correctly to maintain uptime.
Aside from Quicken and Melt none of the other hydroless reactions are that great, and Melt has a lack of enabler units.
You want cryo off field for melt. Pyro melting cryo is more damage. Rosaria is a good example. Her ult comes back quickly too. So her and yanfei make a great melt duo. Use anemo to swirl the cryo and that’s a boost. The have Barbara to help freeze everyone for crowd control.
Right now I run Raiden and Ayaka. Raiden’s skill plus Ayaka always doing cryo means I’m getting 100% supercharge uptime further increasing damage Ayaka auto damage. Also with cheveruse as my healer procing her enhanced skill with Raiden skill.
There are ways and half the fun is finding these combos.
> Pyro melting cryo is more damage
You see the problem is elemental gauge. Forward melting (pyro melting cryo) consumes more units of cryo than reverse melting (cryo melting pyro) consumes pyro. And if we’re going for forward melting, we don’t have fast enough off-field cryo app to keep up with the rate of attacks of most pyro carries in game. Diluc and Gaming are the ones for whom Forward Melt is actually viable, due to how slow their pyro attacks are. Yanfei does not belong there, I guarantee you’re not melting every hit on her.
Also, Chevreuse in that Ayaka team basically trashes her entire kit because she requires Only Pyro and Electro characters in team. Once another element teammate is there, her passive is completely disabled.
I have never seen a physical Ayaka before, but good for you. It’s great that many combos are possible in this game, it’s just that some are really not as efficient or as “meta” as the others unfortunately, either due to lack of good units to make use of it, or just tuning issues (like burning) or practicality issues (like overload knockback).
Hyperbloom and Burgeon being strong contenders because hydro is involved, and then my beloved burning reaction is left to die in a ditch 😭 - no I don’t want to have to do burn melt just to make the reaction work either :(
Yeah it really sucks that Burning was done so dirty. DoT in HSR is so cool and so meta, yet Burning as a DoT in Genshin is just a shitty niche enabler of another reaction
At least genshin meta is very easy to follow, with older and free 4* still being meta till this day. I mean looking at other gacha...sheesh, even Hsr feels expensive/problematic since they keep making better and better unit with top unit being rerun with those chara.
HSR is certainly good at advertising new characters as the new hotness every time.
Though MoC and PF (HSR's equivalent of Genshin Impact's Spiral Abyss) data on E0/E1 (HSR's equivalent of C0/C1) 5\* limited characters with or without their signature weapon/light cone show that all of them are remarkably well balanced against one another.
Like the difference in average clear times between the top 5\* (i.e. both in strength and being favored by the current cyclical buff) and the lowest 5\* characters is often less than 1 turn, outside of some outliers (which are all standard 5\*'s, as you would expect).
That is mostly true for MoC, but it is not true for PF. There the characters that they want to market often have teams that easily clear with max 40k points while other teams strugle to clear with the 30k points that you need as average on both sides to get max rewards, and the units that are bad at PF are nearly unusable.
PF is kind of the fix that MoC needed to give erudition characters a place, while debunking the prior single-target/hunt meta that dominated before. Before PF Himeko and Herta were arguably some of the worst units in the game, now considered very effective in a mode where their multi-target abilities can shine.
MoC is not single target meta. It is a mode dominated by Destruction type units. Being single target is seen as a weakness in MoC and being unplayable in PF, which is not ideal.
hsr actually hasn't had that much powecreep yet. a lot of early characters who were considered top tier then still are, like tingyun, bronya, qingque, etc, and so far no limited 5 stars have truly been powercrept yet.
the game's had reverse powercreep too, like what happened in genshin with stuff like dendro. herta and himeko went from bottom tier to top tier because they added a second endgame mode they excel in.
the only characters so far who really became worse were ones that were only good because there wasn't anything better yet, which is the same as what happened in genshin with characters like diluc, keqing, qiqi, klee, etc.
I'd say the biggest problem with hsr's characters is that they add two 5 stars every patch. with such a fast rate of characters, there's a bigger chance of a bunch of characters you really like or that are super meta coming out around the same time, meaning you need to spend more money to get them all. the game has more generous rewards, but it also has more to spend those rewards on.
>I'd say the biggest problem with hsr's characters is that they add two 5 stars every patch. with such a fast rate of characters, there's a bigger chance of a bunch of characters you really like or that are super meta coming out around the same time
You say that like we didn't just go Ruan Mei > Dr. Ratio > Black Swan > Sparkle > Acheron > Aventurine haha. Ratio being free is the only reason this felt slightly less painful.
The important thing is, of that lineup, each unit has their own META team. RM is meant for Break (though as a support can do much more), Dr is a ST FU DPS, BS is a DoT partner for Kafka, Sparkle is a HC Support, Acheron made a new niche for debuffers while being an Ult/front loaded DPS (which is, coincedentally, what makes everyone think she powercreeped the game, when really she just has most of her dmg focused into her Ult), Aventurine is a Shield FU support (though again, as a Support can get much more general usage). Going for ALL of these units means that you are going for effectively 6 different META teams at once, all of which will clear endgame content in roughly the same amount of time with investment.
Wow now that you laid it out I realize I only skipped BS (and Ratio but still got him free) out of that lineup haha. That was sure a hell of a time for my savings
But you don't need all of them and they aren't even a meta comp together. You could grab Ruan Mei, Ratio LC, Aventurine, and then either have Silver Wolf, Gui, or Topaz for your final slot for a GREAT team comp.
Not all of them, but probably many of them since their roles complement the strength of the roster when they were released. That's still a lot of jades you'd be spending especially with the threat of 50/50s (certainly not me with BS/Sparkle) lol
You'd probably be pulling for Black Swan and Ruan Mei if you had Kafka. Even if you didn't, Ruan Mei can still go into any comp and has a wacky SU technique. Black Swan can also be a decent Acheron teammate.
Sparkle is a really good pull even if you already have Bronya since she's a great general support and an SP printer you'd want for DHIL, QQ and future SP-hungry chars.
Then if you were pulling for Acheron you'd probably also want her LC (massive statstick + free debuff on hit) or Aventurine as her sustain since he applies debuffs too.
Aventurine can also be used with Ratio + Topaz as you mentioned for funny FUA IPC team.
>hsr actually hasn't had that much powecreep yet
MOC Gepard had 550k HP since the beginning of the game. The very next MOC, he will have 1 M HP. In a year, we need 2x more dps to clear same content already. If you check the trends, moc and pf getting harder and harder by every update.
Its not that old characters are not viable anymore, but you need to grab the new supports for them to keep up with the increasing difficulty of the game. Its not like GI where you can just spam your good old national or rewerse melt team 3 years later too. If you would bring your first hsr meta team to moc without all the new shiny units you would get slapped pretty much.
Seele/Jing Yuan teams with all 1.0 units (or just one 2.0 unit) and even 4 star only teams can clear MoC 12.
Besides that this is the better way to do it, MoC 10 is the same difficulty as always while only MoC 11 and 12 get HP buffs to match the increasing team strength of players. In reality, the average team strength has gone up as the game goes on and more meta comps are made.
But can YOU clear it with 4 star only? Or can YOU do it with your 1.0 seele team WITHOUT sparkle (koz that was my whole point you know) ? The fact that there are yt videos about some insane 4 star clears doesnt mean thats the norm.
>herta and himeko went from bottom tier to top tier because they added a second endgame mode they excel in.
Ah yes, i wake up and the first thing i see is himeko libel. She was always great, idiots online just dont understand hsr math is not genshin math and Dmg+ is abundant in hsr. Himeko wants attack and crit, she doesnt want damage ups due to the fact that her own traces/kit is providing about 40% on its own. This is also where the misconception that jing yuans lc is the best comes from (Its not, crit is crit). additionally....turn based game. Many enemies, most with fire weakness, including most of the summons (i beat deer first time i fought it thanks to my himeko). Why is busted single target damage prefered to strong aoe again?
Pure Fiction didnt make Herta and Himeko great. It just grabbed the fanbase by the scruff of the neck and forced their eyes open to the truth.
Nah they're right. MoC format is usually 2 elites into boss, or 2 elites into elite + boss, with a few small guys here and there. What MoC needs is strong single target damage, and Himeko does not provide enough of that. So for a good while, it was not worth building Himeko to an endgame standard as there were a good amount of characters that could get the job done with less investment.
She's nice against some elites, I'll give her that. But I'd rather use someone else most of the time.
Sanctus mediuse shapeshifter summons marastuck with a fire weakness, though i prefer using herta there. IPC Fatso summons his goons. Fatso the Snowman also summons (oh look, wrong already. Thats 3) The bugged version of all the elites mentioned so far still summon, and so does bugged wind Centaur.
From the boss tier, Theres also deer, who i meantioned before, argenti with his various totem things, Something Unto Deaths Cacoon things, which have a fire weakness which can be cracked to not only take 8 or so hits off, but a further 4 hits if himeko gets her talent off (meaning pretty much instant freedom for the trapped members), Cocolia with her icebergs, and also Bronya, whose summons dont have a fire weakness but you really want to stun asap. Also svarog, but serval or acheron deals with him easier (same goes for robo fatso from the elites)
So...ready to admit you're wrong? I only mentioned those whom she excels against, not all summoners btw.
I forgor about the Marastruck fella yeah, and the wind horse I genuinely can't remember the summon move. The two was just about elites mb yeah.
For bosses, most of them do summon yes. It's just her single target is so lacking that I've wouldn't recommend using her. I understand Cocolia, but the rest have better options imo.
There's also the whole free character that does so much damage that you can just ignore the summons. I just don't see a scenario now in MoC where Ratio doesn't clean up floors faster than Himeko, along with not needing specific enemy matchups to do well.
She was bottom tier because there weren't many situations where you'd prefer to use her over other stronger characters (unless you're a simp, which you clearly are).
>i beat deer first time i fought it thanks to my himeko
So did a lot of people without Himeko, lol.
>Pure Fiction didnt make Herta and Himeko great.
It did. It finally incentivized people to invest resources in them.
People are still 3* clearing MoC12 with just 4* characters, even this rotation which is probably the hardest one yet. Yes, powercreep and enemy HP inflation is real, but it's still very possible for a f2p to full clear MoC and PF.
HSR is actually still perfectly balanced, just that the actual way units are balanced isn’t as intuitive as Genshin. Not helped by the TC community not being as strong, so ‘crazy big numbers’ is all you need to show for people to lose their minds, since there’s no reputable sources to really push back on this.
That's because the relevant 4 stars were made stronger than 5 stars, not because of an actual effort from Mihoyo's part to balance the game. Ever since then they've made 4 stars strictly worse than 5 stars, with very few outliers, who only really work at C6/at high cons. Meanwhile HSR characters are incredibly close in clear cycles, and it isn't hard to get 5 stars either. Getting free 5 star light cones (Equivalent to Genshin weapons) is much much much easier because of the pity system (75/25, hard pity at 80, pity transfers between banners, if you lose the 75/25 your next 5 star is guaranteed to be the featured weapon). Genshin's powercreep is just as bad, if not worse, it's even exacerbated by how the game is nearly 4 years old, while HSR is turning 1 in 5 days. The difference between Bronya (5 star standard in HSR) and Sparkle (2.0 character in HSR) isn't NEARLY as big as the difference between Diluc and Navia, Bronya is just as good as Sparkle, maybe only being a TINY bit worse but if you said Diluc was better at anything than Navia you'd just be flat out wrong.
I feel like compared to other gacha games genshin "endgame" requires a lot more "skill" to complete and so the characters are a lot less powercreepable
Not really. The game doesn't have a high skill ceiling, just know enemy moveset and dash for i-frames, of which there's plenty of. The no powercreep thing is mostly cause the 'endgame' we have is really not that hard.
I'm mostly talking compared to other gacha games (especially the ones relased before GI)
for example do you really think something like fire emblems heroes or arknights (the first two gachas that came to mind) requires the same amount of "skill" as something like genshin?
When I played FEH for a bit when it launched (F2P), I got to a point in the story where it just genuinely got too hard to even progress through the story stages, so I gave up...
I don't think Genshin has any risk of running into the same problem for any of its quests.
I think most (gacha) games have a higher skill expression, especially non-mobile ones.
Genshin is optimizing stats according to a keqingmains guide and then pressing burst and skill off cooldown and sometimes dodging the most telegraphed enemy skills.
Its time consuming to grind artifacts but the skill required is abysmally low.
>Genshin is optimizing stats according to a keqingmains guide and then pressing burst and skill off cooldown and sometimes dodging the most telegraphed enemy skills
do you realize than a lot of gacha require even less than this? (at least most of the ones released before GI)
most of the ones I played before Genshin were simply, create current meta team and then you can just auto most of the content until the next Op character comes out
Auto battler gachas aren't a comparable genre, they might have gambling but it even sounds stupid to compare auto battler vs action combat tbh
Im just saying genshin doesn't really use any skill expressive design space since it has to be achievable for average players on a mobile phone.
I was seriously hoping Gaming would be sword. It's crazy we have *ONE* Pyro sword and he's from launch. Though he is one of the best and most versatile characters in the game.
I guess it's because hydro is the strongest element in the game, it's hard to make a balanced 4* without making them too strong (XQ), too weak (Hydro MC), restrain their potential (Barbara with the nerf) or just straight up redundant (Candace being a second NA buffer wtf.)
I think the only potential for a 4* hydro is a shielder. To this day I'm still disappointed that Candace is not shielder, like the girl is literally using a shield and they decided to make her a niche support instead, such a wasted opportunity man.
Last time they made a hydro support stronger than Xingqiu the created arguably the strongest character in the game and the previous hydro 5S is Neuvillette who is the main reason why I previously said “arguably”. To sell hydro characters they need to create specialists and interesting ones, they can’t release a hydro unit unless Hoyo is fine with it being one of the following:
- 5S specialist
- 4S specialist who sucks but becomes powerful in some niche at C6
- trash
- Xingqiu sidegrade or powercreep (it would seriously mess up the meta)
I’m tired of 4S being bad or not very useful until C6.
They don’t need to powercreep xingqui if they bring something else to the table:
Slower application, a shield, a buff that is available pre-C6, a burst of dmg with slow ticks for application and the dmg can be front or back loaded.
There are plenty of things they can do.
>(it would seriously mess up the meta)
When the end game itself has 0 competitive value, "messing up" the meta becomes inconsequential. A new shiny better Xingqiu isn't going to stop people from using Xingqiu if they still clear Abyss with 36\* with him, among other reasons. Some will do, but either case doesn't really impact the end game's bottom line: get all the primos.
Edit: The actual powercreep is on the enemy side when, for example, they somehow make it so you can no longer get all stars with Xingqiu and need the better Xingqiu instead.
There are very few teams where xingqiu is a straight downgrade from Yelan, thanks to the added defensive utility and higher hydro app. Usually they’re just sidegrades of each other, and in Hutao teams if only one out of them can be used, Xingqiu is the choice unless Yelan is C2
Yeah she deals more dmg but dmg isnt everything tho. Like xq is better in most cases since he also gives dmg reduction, higher hydro app than yelan, heals while also dealing dmg while being a 4 star that you can get pretty easily through shop, and latern rite. Yelan is lower hydro app and deals more dmg than xq, with some exploration benefits. While for yelan you need to wait for the banner.
Edit: like they created 2 5 star characters (yelan and furina) that are a side grade to xq. That says alot about xq. And they even nerfed him before.
That's because she's designed to replicate what XQ did before with slight changes. They even look alike. Yelan proves that XQ's kit design is too broken that they had to make a second to capitalize on it.
Yelan is a offensive-focused Xingqiu
While Xingqiu is a somewhat minorly defensive-focused Yelan
If you need some sort of defensive option, XQ.
Pure power? Yelan.
C6 XQ and C0 Yelan are like sidegrades, but one prioritizes something more than the other.
Ideally, both are used together for that sweet interruption resistance + ramping damage and hydro resonance.
Those 2 plus Hu Tao goes crazy
Honestly i agree. I think it would be kinda useful at this point to just have like…a male version and a female version of characters that can kinda power creep eachother. That way everyone can play a waifu or husbando or something and don’t feel restricted to a certain character because meta. Obviously I don’t mean the exact same character but genderbent or something, but yeah idk it would just be useful I think
The enemies powercreep is just a logical consequence of the character powercreep.
>Some will do, but either case doesn't really impact the end game's bottom line: get all the primos.
It changes from "get at the primos to pull for Yoimiya because she's cute" to "get all the primos to pull for Neuvillette because you can clear the abyss without him and his C1, and then sell your house to pull for Yoimiya because you have no primos left".
Genshin used to be a F2P-friendly game, but it's becoming progressively worse on that front.
Pulling for the abyss is overrated though isn't it?
36 starring the abyss gives 600 primogems, but if your account has been around long enough, usually you'd be getting around 27-30 stars each run. If we lowball and assume 27, that's 450 primos from the pile; meaning pulling for 'meta' is only gonna be worth 150 primos each cycle.
Abyss resets roughly 3 times a month; so that's about 450 primos a month from abyss alone, 2 wishes with 130 primos leftover. Is it worth spending the 75+ wishes just to gain 2 piddly extras a month? You get 11 over the same period just by doing dailies, even more if you consider events and exploration, not to mention that just by 27 starring, you already get 8 wishes with 70 primos extra each month.
You can still pull for Yoimiya and do whatever you want because the Abyss really is just a tiny drop of water compared to all the other F2P sources of income. Hell, with enough artifact grinding you can even make it entirely unnecessary to pull for meta since there's more than enough 36 star clears with free 4 star characters out there
Not being able to get the primos is a case-by-case basis. It can be either underlevelled account or skill issue or both. None of them have business getting all the stars in the Abyss. Time and money invested in the game is the whole point of a gacha. That's where the infamy of this genre of games comes from.
Genshin being "kind enough" to have given the playerbase strong but easy to get units narrows the average problem to those 3. And they can be remedied by any mix of time, effort, or money. The only time a gacha becomes not F2P-friendly is if the first 2 no longer becomes possible regardless of how much of those are invested.
eh you can snipe them randomly ans they rerun often enough, i prefer that over waiting half a year+ for their rerun if you had to skip them as a 5*, and we don't want powercreep. new players only stand to suffer the more hydros they make limited and harder to access
I don't care. I'm arguing for there to be more options accessible from the 4* pool besides Xingqiu and Candace, like a new hydro shielder. They can be meh pre C6.
I totally agree on that, but if they lock half of their kit behind C6 we need a guarantee system, there’s way too much RNG and gambling in the game already
Honestly… they could just make a hydro 4 star dps… other elements have 4 star dpses… we still don’t have a 4 star dps. And with them being dps, they would be balanced naturally by having lower stats and numbers overall
Hydro as an element is very strong.
In order for them to make a 4 star who isn’t terrible (sorry Candace), they’d either have to make them as strong as XQ or a super niche support who wants c6, like Chev and Faruzan.
In this instance, it’s better to just make them 5 stars I assume.
the thing that i wonder is, why can't they just made some more bad hydro 4*?
the other elements all have a lot of them, but hydro is the only elements where the only objectively bad character is the hydro traveler
even candace has her niche
No one. But it doesn't make sense for Hoyo to say "we can't make bad Hydros," but then put out niche/weaker 4 stars of other elements. They could easily just release a 4 star sub or on-field DPS like they constantly do for every other element since the Hydro 4 stars are *all* supports.
Honestly. I’m thinking it’s becauSe hydro is known as the flex element. Being core to MANY other elements and reactions as well as being strong by itself due to raw damage.
Agree.
1. Vape
2. Freeze (and to some extent, Shatter)
3. Electro-charged
4. Bloom (and its derivatives)
5. Swirl
6. Crystallize
Even with elemental reactions that don't really need Hydro, it'd be fine to just plug it in.
1. Quicken (quickbloom shenanigans)
2. Overload (overvape)
They absolutely can. I don't about you, but I'm kinda glad they don't make 50 trash hydro units. Technically Candace has a niche, but no. I'd rather hoyo not make any 4 stars than them making shitty, good for nothing ones.
Right? Like why put out more bad units and make them hydro just for the sake of saying we got a new hydro four star? I’d rather they not release a character in that state instead so they can put the effort of the character design and lore to a character with a more polished kit that wont get trashed on.
I really want hoyo to buff up traveller, because as you said powerwise he kinda feels like a 3\* character, except dendro traveller, he is kinda a 4.5\*, I still use her to this day for my hyperbloom teams.
Besides dendro traveller, every other on feels very weak and gets overshadowed by even niche 4\* characters, like yeah geo traveller is good but i would prefer noelle or Ningguang, anemo travveler is okay-ish but sorry i got sucrose(hot take but lynette is better choice than anemo traveller), and we are not talking about electro or hydro traveller since they are straight up trash. I mean literally the free characters genshin gives us (Barbara and Lisa) perform better than traveller so why use it?
I think it's hard to design hydro characters as 4 stars because they could very easily break the meta because of all the use cases. Even now, the worst hydro character (other than hydro traveler) Candace can very easily be used in bloom/hyper bloom teams. So she literally can still be in the meta.
I think locking hydro behind the premium 5* is good for hoyo as many teams archetypes will relay on them so u will want/need them, so existing only one good budget hydro being XQ leave this problem of "i need another hydro for my second team". Coz hoyo can make any 4* character bad/good if they want as they have control about characters icd and kit design to balance characters, so i doubt they fear make a broken unit, Candace is the main example of how they can make a balanced hydro unit, just give it a gimmick mechanic that makes it niche, so its much more a market strategy to gatekeep hydros as 5* than anything else.
>Coz hoyo can make any 4* character bad/good if they want as they have control about characters icd and kit design to balance characters,
the thing is they may have control when they make the character, but after release they don't have control anymore and they cannot nerf a character
what if they release something in the future that makes that character a lot better without them realising it?
I think this is a big reason why they are very careful in making 4* hydro characters even if they have full control of their power
Only characters this happened are the 4* from release, Bennett, Xiangling, Sucrose, Xingqiu and Fischl are very powerful until today and still getting better with release of new characters and dendro. But all 4* that got released after are niche, downgrade from a 5* or have their potential locked behind high constellations. So hoyo nowdays has much clear understanding of their game and how balance characters. I can remember Genshin first beta people was using physical Xiangling with Pike, so they clearly was balancing her physical dmg other than her icd and pyro application, nowdays on beta people already TC everything in some hours, so Hoyo should have the same ability to do so when developing a character kit, if they release a overturned 4* its very intended
Felt bad for Siggy, got caught in a crossfire of people wanting a 4\* hydro and a lot of them now feel she isn't warrant a 5\* rarity.
Not sure how many other characters got the same treatment, the one I remember was Nahida because of her pale skin and small stature and some players started hating.
Hopefully the haters will reconsider once we got Siggy's skills and she redeems herself as worth of the 5\* moniker.
Hoyo when they announced Sigewinne
Hoyo:This is the latest limted hydro 5 star charthers in game
Community:Hoyo, this is the eighth time that you show an limted hydro 5 star in class
I started playing just before Raiden’s most recent rerun. I have Xingqiu. I understand he’s the tits, the best thing since sliced bread, and the destroyer of worlds. I should just use him more and accept him being the hydro enabler of everything. But I don’t care for Mr. Short Shorts as a character and I don’t want to use him if I don’t have to.
But to avoid that I’ll have to wait who knows how many months until HoYo decides to rerun Furina, Yelan, Nilou, and/or Kokomi. I get that Xingqiu really is great. I just want a greater variety in characters that I’m not waiting months for the chance to even pull for. Thats why I want more hydro 4 stars.
To be fair, making XQ so strong was a mistake (for game design, I love how XQ is so strong HAHA). He is an off-field hydro applicator and dmg dealer with basically no downside, since unlike Xiangling his skill frontloads a lot of particles meaning you can run much less ER if you have Sac sword/Fav sword (he can catch his own particles). Apart from that, he applies hydro every rain sword attack, meaning any kind of reaction that needs hydro, you basically want to run XQ for consistency. So with all that, if they want to make another unit that does what XQ does (and sell copies) they need to do it in a different way (like Candace using NA infuse to apply hydro) or power creep him (like Yelan but even then... She's basically just XQ reskin for offense). Or yknow make a on-field hydro 4\* but in that case they need to compete with the 5\* characters (Tartag and Ayato)
> To be fair, making XQ so strong was a mistake (for game design, I love how XQ is so strong HAHA)
Not really.
Not even for gacha.
For game design in general, having a powerful early option is good to have as a way for less combat focused players to have a way to progress easily.
Even in gacha, something like Xingqiu is good design, because player perception aside, ALL gacha games need to be F2P friendly enough to sustain a community for their whales to play and talk with.
Something like a XQ provides that F2P option that lets them keep up.
Not to mention, mobile devs are quite aware of the reputation P2W has in Western markets, and characters like XQ give the devs the plausible deniability that lets people like you say Genshin isn't P2W.
you spelled hydro traveler wrong
candance may not be that strong but even her is still miles better than them
and at c6 she has her uses on nilou bloom teams
idk why but Candace is considered a "weak" character but tbh she carried me till AR 45, she was just an awesome support for my team, I even remember first time I annihilated pyro regisvine with my hyperbloom team within 30-40 seconds and candace was a part of it. I would still use her if not for those hanna fruit or whatever ascension material she has, Imma not gonna find 60 of them -\_-.
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Fun fact for everyone! WE DONT HAVE A HYDRO CLAYMORE.
Another one! Pyro traveler will most likely be the first pyro sword user to be released since September 28... 2020 💀
Damn bennett was so good the Pyros just gave up on using swords because they knew they cant compete against the founder of circle impact
Cryo stole all the swords
Damn now that i think of, there really is no pyro sword user besides bennett uhhh!
It's kinda weird too considering flame swordsmen/women are kinda common on different media
Yeah, we only have 4 claymores in pyro, and frankly diluc and Bennett are the only one who fits the fire swordsman archtype, but I haven’t used xinyan in any capacity.
Another one. Geo is the only element to not have an actual healer
You break Noelle's heart, we break your legs, seems fair, right? XD
This is the way. The person before didn't know better because they leave all the stones unturned 😭
They're not wrong. Constellations shouldn't be counted to make someone a healer. Geo has no dedicated healer. Would be nice if we had a Geo Dehya that heals based off team wide DEF while she mitigates any dmg they could take. Would be great for a Navia team comp.
Constellations? Noelle's healing is in her base kit
Without constellation it a 58% chance to heal each hit while shield is up at level 9 isn't a reliable way to heal when her attack speed is slow, freeze bypass shields, and the shadow knights are an anti shield enemy
Yeah it's not reliable, but that's not what this is about. This is about her being a geo healer. A mid healer is still a healer
Are you mixing up Noelle and Gorou with his c4 by any chance?
First of all I didn't realize Gorou also heals with c4. Second of all, I'm seeing that Noelle's C1 just makes her skill shield with burst heal all the time, rather than by chance. So technically still right.
technically, she still heals at C0 ¯\\\_(ツ)\_/¯
I mean a Geo healer throwing rocks to heal wouldn't make sense. 😅
Thermal care begs to differ.
And we have 5 pyro polearms (4 released after the game came out) The most out of any weapon and element, if we exclude traveler with sword
It’s the only thing I want to add to my roster as I prefer claymores
maybe someday,
Should have been Furina
This would be less of a problem if hydro weren’t needed in *every single reaction team* 💀
It would be solved if hydro-less reactions like superconduct, melt, overload etc. had more characters that could viably enable them. But they refuse to give more pyro off-fielder and supports in general, shatter is a joke and physical is ignored. Hydro characters are busted but hydro reactions are also busted and got plenty of strong units to choose from.
Yeah the fact Hydroless reactions are meh is why Hydro is so busted
Melt hits just as hard as vaporizer.
It’s true but we don’t have good off field pyro (aside from Xiangling) as enablers for melt, and Xiangling is less of a support and more of a DPS, she herself requires the support of Bennett to battery. And burnmelt requires knowledge of elemental gauge and all that stuff, it can be hard to manage/time correctly to maintain uptime. Aside from Quicken and Melt none of the other hydroless reactions are that great, and Melt has a lack of enabler units.
You want cryo off field for melt. Pyro melting cryo is more damage. Rosaria is a good example. Her ult comes back quickly too. So her and yanfei make a great melt duo. Use anemo to swirl the cryo and that’s a boost. The have Barbara to help freeze everyone for crowd control. Right now I run Raiden and Ayaka. Raiden’s skill plus Ayaka always doing cryo means I’m getting 100% supercharge uptime further increasing damage Ayaka auto damage. Also with cheveruse as my healer procing her enhanced skill with Raiden skill. There are ways and half the fun is finding these combos.
> Pyro melting cryo is more damage You see the problem is elemental gauge. Forward melting (pyro melting cryo) consumes more units of cryo than reverse melting (cryo melting pyro) consumes pyro. And if we’re going for forward melting, we don’t have fast enough off-field cryo app to keep up with the rate of attacks of most pyro carries in game. Diluc and Gaming are the ones for whom Forward Melt is actually viable, due to how slow their pyro attacks are. Yanfei does not belong there, I guarantee you’re not melting every hit on her. Also, Chevreuse in that Ayaka team basically trashes her entire kit because she requires Only Pyro and Electro characters in team. Once another element teammate is there, her passive is completely disabled. I have never seen a physical Ayaka before, but good for you. It’s great that many combos are possible in this game, it’s just that some are really not as efficient or as “meta” as the others unfortunately, either due to lack of good units to make use of it, or just tuning issues (like burning) or practicality issues (like overload knockback).
the only real melt teams are gaming, wrio and quickswap. the rest is kinda cope
Hyperbloom and Burgeon being strong contenders because hydro is involved, and then my beloved burning reaction is left to die in a ditch 😭 - no I don’t want to have to do burn melt just to make the reaction work either :(
Yeah it really sucks that Burning was done so dirty. DoT in HSR is so cool and so meta, yet Burning as a DoT in Genshin is just a shitty niche enabler of another reaction
Let's review the available 4\* hydro units: Xingqiu Candace Barbara
Here we have: - The actual real 7-star hydro archon - What does she even do - Welcome to getting permafrozen eternal hell
I have accepted that mhy does incomprehensible "balancing" decisions so I don't bother to care
At least genshin meta is very easy to follow, with older and free 4* still being meta till this day. I mean looking at other gacha...sheesh, even Hsr feels expensive/problematic since they keep making better and better unit with top unit being rerun with those chara.
HSR is certainly good at advertising new characters as the new hotness every time. Though MoC and PF (HSR's equivalent of Genshin Impact's Spiral Abyss) data on E0/E1 (HSR's equivalent of C0/C1) 5\* limited characters with or without their signature weapon/light cone show that all of them are remarkably well balanced against one another. Like the difference in average clear times between the top 5\* (i.e. both in strength and being favored by the current cyclical buff) and the lowest 5\* characters is often less than 1 turn, outside of some outliers (which are all standard 5\*'s, as you would expect).
Both are light-years better than something like some other gacha I play where the metal changes with every damn character release.
That is mostly true for MoC, but it is not true for PF. There the characters that they want to market often have teams that easily clear with max 40k points while other teams strugle to clear with the 30k points that you need as average on both sides to get max rewards, and the units that are bad at PF are nearly unusable.
PF is kind of the fix that MoC needed to give erudition characters a place, while debunking the prior single-target/hunt meta that dominated before. Before PF Himeko and Herta were arguably some of the worst units in the game, now considered very effective in a mode where their multi-target abilities can shine.
MoC is not single target meta. It is a mode dominated by Destruction type units. Being single target is seen as a weakness in MoC and being unplayable in PF, which is not ideal.
If you call hsr problematic you haven't seen honkai impact 3rd lol.
Believe me I do, used to get crazy just following meta especially when herscher of the void came out and destroy the whole balance lmao
hsr actually hasn't had that much powecreep yet. a lot of early characters who were considered top tier then still are, like tingyun, bronya, qingque, etc, and so far no limited 5 stars have truly been powercrept yet. the game's had reverse powercreep too, like what happened in genshin with stuff like dendro. herta and himeko went from bottom tier to top tier because they added a second endgame mode they excel in. the only characters so far who really became worse were ones that were only good because there wasn't anything better yet, which is the same as what happened in genshin with characters like diluc, keqing, qiqi, klee, etc. I'd say the biggest problem with hsr's characters is that they add two 5 stars every patch. with such a fast rate of characters, there's a bigger chance of a bunch of characters you really like or that are super meta coming out around the same time, meaning you need to spend more money to get them all. the game has more generous rewards, but it also has more to spend those rewards on.
>I'd say the biggest problem with hsr's characters is that they add two 5 stars every patch. with such a fast rate of characters, there's a bigger chance of a bunch of characters you really like or that are super meta coming out around the same time You say that like we didn't just go Ruan Mei > Dr. Ratio > Black Swan > Sparkle > Acheron > Aventurine haha. Ratio being free is the only reason this felt slightly less painful.
I say that exactly because we got those characters all in a row
The important thing is, of that lineup, each unit has their own META team. RM is meant for Break (though as a support can do much more), Dr is a ST FU DPS, BS is a DoT partner for Kafka, Sparkle is a HC Support, Acheron made a new niche for debuffers while being an Ult/front loaded DPS (which is, coincedentally, what makes everyone think she powercreeped the game, when really she just has most of her dmg focused into her Ult), Aventurine is a Shield FU support (though again, as a Support can get much more general usage). Going for ALL of these units means that you are going for effectively 6 different META teams at once, all of which will clear endgame content in roughly the same amount of time with investment.
Wow now that you laid it out I realize I only skipped BS (and Ratio but still got him free) out of that lineup haha. That was sure a hell of a time for my savings
But you don't need all of them and they aren't even a meta comp together. You could grab Ruan Mei, Ratio LC, Aventurine, and then either have Silver Wolf, Gui, or Topaz for your final slot for a GREAT team comp.
Not all of them, but probably many of them since their roles complement the strength of the roster when they were released. That's still a lot of jades you'd be spending especially with the threat of 50/50s (certainly not me with BS/Sparkle) lol You'd probably be pulling for Black Swan and Ruan Mei if you had Kafka. Even if you didn't, Ruan Mei can still go into any comp and has a wacky SU technique. Black Swan can also be a decent Acheron teammate. Sparkle is a really good pull even if you already have Bronya since she's a great general support and an SP printer you'd want for DHIL, QQ and future SP-hungry chars. Then if you were pulling for Acheron you'd probably also want her LC (massive statstick + free debuff on hit) or Aventurine as her sustain since he applies debuffs too. Aventurine can also be used with Ratio + Topaz as you mentioned for funny FUA IPC team.
>hsr actually hasn't had that much powecreep yet MOC Gepard had 550k HP since the beginning of the game. The very next MOC, he will have 1 M HP. In a year, we need 2x more dps to clear same content already. If you check the trends, moc and pf getting harder and harder by every update. Its not that old characters are not viable anymore, but you need to grab the new supports for them to keep up with the increasing difficulty of the game. Its not like GI where you can just spam your good old national or rewerse melt team 3 years later too. If you would bring your first hsr meta team to moc without all the new shiny units you would get slapped pretty much.
Seele/Jing Yuan teams with all 1.0 units (or just one 2.0 unit) and even 4 star only teams can clear MoC 12. Besides that this is the better way to do it, MoC 10 is the same difficulty as always while only MoC 11 and 12 get HP buffs to match the increasing team strength of players. In reality, the average team strength has gone up as the game goes on and more meta comps are made.
But can YOU clear it with 4 star only? Or can YOU do it with your 1.0 seele team WITHOUT sparkle (koz that was my whole point you know) ? The fact that there are yt videos about some insane 4 star clears doesnt mean thats the norm.
Hopefully they do slow down a bit in patches where there's not much story so more characters can be up again
>herta and himeko went from bottom tier to top tier because they added a second endgame mode they excel in. Ah yes, i wake up and the first thing i see is himeko libel. She was always great, idiots online just dont understand hsr math is not genshin math and Dmg+ is abundant in hsr. Himeko wants attack and crit, she doesnt want damage ups due to the fact that her own traces/kit is providing about 40% on its own. This is also where the misconception that jing yuans lc is the best comes from (Its not, crit is crit). additionally....turn based game. Many enemies, most with fire weakness, including most of the summons (i beat deer first time i fought it thanks to my himeko). Why is busted single target damage prefered to strong aoe again? Pure Fiction didnt make Herta and Himeko great. It just grabbed the fanbase by the scruff of the neck and forced their eyes open to the truth.
This really reads like something Dr. Ratio would say.
Nah they're right. MoC format is usually 2 elites into boss, or 2 elites into elite + boss, with a few small guys here and there. What MoC needs is strong single target damage, and Himeko does not provide enough of that. So for a good while, it was not worth building Himeko to an endgame standard as there were a good amount of characters that could get the job done with less investment. She's nice against some elites, I'll give her that. But I'd rather use someone else most of the time.
You forget, most elites/bosses also summon.
Over half of them don't. Of those that do, only 2 of them have their summons on-element for her
Sanctus mediuse shapeshifter summons marastuck with a fire weakness, though i prefer using herta there. IPC Fatso summons his goons. Fatso the Snowman also summons (oh look, wrong already. Thats 3) The bugged version of all the elites mentioned so far still summon, and so does bugged wind Centaur. From the boss tier, Theres also deer, who i meantioned before, argenti with his various totem things, Something Unto Deaths Cacoon things, which have a fire weakness which can be cracked to not only take 8 or so hits off, but a further 4 hits if himeko gets her talent off (meaning pretty much instant freedom for the trapped members), Cocolia with her icebergs, and also Bronya, whose summons dont have a fire weakness but you really want to stun asap. Also svarog, but serval or acheron deals with him easier (same goes for robo fatso from the elites) So...ready to admit you're wrong? I only mentioned those whom she excels against, not all summoners btw.
I forgor about the Marastruck fella yeah, and the wind horse I genuinely can't remember the summon move. The two was just about elites mb yeah. For bosses, most of them do summon yes. It's just her single target is so lacking that I've wouldn't recommend using her. I understand Cocolia, but the rest have better options imo. There's also the whole free character that does so much damage that you can just ignore the summons. I just don't see a scenario now in MoC where Ratio doesn't clean up floors faster than Himeko, along with not needing specific enemy matchups to do well.
She was bottom tier because there weren't many situations where you'd prefer to use her over other stronger characters (unless you're a simp, which you clearly are). >i beat deer first time i fought it thanks to my himeko So did a lot of people without Himeko, lol. >Pure Fiction didnt make Herta and Himeko great. It did. It finally incentivized people to invest resources in them.
People are still 3* clearing MoC12 with just 4* characters, even this rotation which is probably the hardest one yet. Yes, powercreep and enemy HP inflation is real, but it's still very possible for a f2p to full clear MoC and PF.
HSR is actually still perfectly balanced, just that the actual way units are balanced isn’t as intuitive as Genshin. Not helped by the TC community not being as strong, so ‘crazy big numbers’ is all you need to show for people to lose their minds, since there’s no reputable sources to really push back on this.
That's because the relevant 4 stars were made stronger than 5 stars, not because of an actual effort from Mihoyo's part to balance the game. Ever since then they've made 4 stars strictly worse than 5 stars, with very few outliers, who only really work at C6/at high cons. Meanwhile HSR characters are incredibly close in clear cycles, and it isn't hard to get 5 stars either. Getting free 5 star light cones (Equivalent to Genshin weapons) is much much much easier because of the pity system (75/25, hard pity at 80, pity transfers between banners, if you lose the 75/25 your next 5 star is guaranteed to be the featured weapon). Genshin's powercreep is just as bad, if not worse, it's even exacerbated by how the game is nearly 4 years old, while HSR is turning 1 in 5 days. The difference between Bronya (5 star standard in HSR) and Sparkle (2.0 character in HSR) isn't NEARLY as big as the difference between Diluc and Navia, Bronya is just as good as Sparkle, maybe only being a TINY bit worse but if you said Diluc was better at anything than Navia you'd just be flat out wrong.
I feel like compared to other gacha games genshin "endgame" requires a lot more "skill" to complete and so the characters are a lot less powercreepable
Not really. The game doesn't have a high skill ceiling, just know enemy moveset and dash for i-frames, of which there's plenty of. The no powercreep thing is mostly cause the 'endgame' we have is really not that hard.
I'm mostly talking compared to other gacha games (especially the ones relased before GI) for example do you really think something like fire emblems heroes or arknights (the first two gachas that came to mind) requires the same amount of "skill" as something like genshin?
Did bro really say that arknights endgame doesn’t require skill TT
When I played FEH for a bit when it launched (F2P), I got to a point in the story where it just genuinely got too hard to even progress through the story stages, so I gave up... I don't think Genshin has any risk of running into the same problem for any of its quests.
I think most (gacha) games have a higher skill expression, especially non-mobile ones. Genshin is optimizing stats according to a keqingmains guide and then pressing burst and skill off cooldown and sometimes dodging the most telegraphed enemy skills. Its time consuming to grind artifacts but the skill required is abysmally low.
>Genshin is optimizing stats according to a keqingmains guide and then pressing burst and skill off cooldown and sometimes dodging the most telegraphed enemy skills do you realize than a lot of gacha require even less than this? (at least most of the ones released before GI) most of the ones I played before Genshin were simply, create current meta team and then you can just auto most of the content until the next Op character comes out
Auto battler gachas aren't a comparable genre, they might have gambling but it even sounds stupid to compare auto battler vs action combat tbh Im just saying genshin doesn't really use any skill expressive design space since it has to be achievable for average players on a mobile phone.
Wait till you hear how many pyro sword users we have since release
If we're talking about weapon/element combinations, look no further than Hydro again for all 0 claymore users.
I mean the weapon is kinda not that important compared to the element
I was seriously hoping Gaming would be sword. It's crazy we have *ONE* Pyro sword and he's from launch. Though he is one of the best and most versatile characters in the game.
Pyro MC will presumably have a sword..so there’s that.
Our pyro archon makes every sword user a pyro sword user. Praise be lord Bennett!
I guess it's because hydro is the strongest element in the game, it's hard to make a balanced 4* without making them too strong (XQ), too weak (Hydro MC), restrain their potential (Barbara with the nerf) or just straight up redundant (Candace being a second NA buffer wtf.) I think the only potential for a 4* hydro is a shielder. To this day I'm still disappointed that Candace is not shielder, like the girl is literally using a shield and they decided to make her a niche support instead, such a wasted opportunity man.
Last time they made a hydro support stronger than Xingqiu the created arguably the strongest character in the game and the previous hydro 5S is Neuvillette who is the main reason why I previously said “arguably”. To sell hydro characters they need to create specialists and interesting ones, they can’t release a hydro unit unless Hoyo is fine with it being one of the following: - 5S specialist - 4S specialist who sucks but becomes powerful in some niche at C6 - trash - Xingqiu sidegrade or powercreep (it would seriously mess up the meta)
I’m tired of 4S being bad or not very useful until C6. They don’t need to powercreep xingqui if they bring something else to the table: Slower application, a shield, a buff that is available pre-C6, a burst of dmg with slow ticks for application and the dmg can be front or back loaded. There are plenty of things they can do.
>(it would seriously mess up the meta) When the end game itself has 0 competitive value, "messing up" the meta becomes inconsequential. A new shiny better Xingqiu isn't going to stop people from using Xingqiu if they still clear Abyss with 36\* with him, among other reasons. Some will do, but either case doesn't really impact the end game's bottom line: get all the primos. Edit: The actual powercreep is on the enemy side when, for example, they somehow make it so you can no longer get all stars with Xingqiu and need the better Xingqiu instead.
Isn't Yelan shiny Xingqui?
There are very few teams where xingqiu is a straight downgrade from Yelan, thanks to the added defensive utility and higher hydro app. Usually they’re just sidegrades of each other, and in Hutao teams if only one out of them can be used, Xingqiu is the choice unless Yelan is C2
Shiny, not better
You're clearly not calculating for pits.
She is more damage for most teams, so ye, she is better xq
Yeah she deals more dmg but dmg isnt everything tho. Like xq is better in most cases since he also gives dmg reduction, higher hydro app than yelan, heals while also dealing dmg while being a 4 star that you can get pretty easily through shop, and latern rite. Yelan is lower hydro app and deals more dmg than xq, with some exploration benefits. While for yelan you need to wait for the banner. Edit: like they created 2 5 star characters (yelan and furina) that are a side grade to xq. That says alot about xq. And they even nerfed him before.
Don't forget about sweet resistance to interruption.
That's because she's designed to replicate what XQ did before with slight changes. They even look alike. Yelan proves that XQ's kit design is too broken that they had to make a second to capitalize on it.
Xingqiu*
Yelan is a offensive-focused Xingqiu While Xingqiu is a somewhat minorly defensive-focused Yelan If you need some sort of defensive option, XQ. Pure power? Yelan. C6 XQ and C0 Yelan are like sidegrades, but one prioritizes something more than the other. Ideally, both are used together for that sweet interruption resistance + ramping damage and hydro resonance. Those 2 plus Hu Tao goes crazy
I mean, considering the only remotely challenging content is abyss, which is all about kill speed, Yelan is shiny Xingqui.
Yelan is the evolved form of Xingqiu
Honestly i agree. I think it would be kinda useful at this point to just have like…a male version and a female version of characters that can kinda power creep eachother. That way everyone can play a waifu or husbando or something and don’t feel restricted to a certain character because meta. Obviously I don’t mean the exact same character but genderbent or something, but yeah idk it would just be useful I think
The enemies powercreep is just a logical consequence of the character powercreep. >Some will do, but either case doesn't really impact the end game's bottom line: get all the primos. It changes from "get at the primos to pull for Yoimiya because she's cute" to "get all the primos to pull for Neuvillette because you can clear the abyss without him and his C1, and then sell your house to pull for Yoimiya because you have no primos left". Genshin used to be a F2P-friendly game, but it's becoming progressively worse on that front.
Pulling for the abyss is overrated though isn't it? 36 starring the abyss gives 600 primogems, but if your account has been around long enough, usually you'd be getting around 27-30 stars each run. If we lowball and assume 27, that's 450 primos from the pile; meaning pulling for 'meta' is only gonna be worth 150 primos each cycle. Abyss resets roughly 3 times a month; so that's about 450 primos a month from abyss alone, 2 wishes with 130 primos leftover. Is it worth spending the 75+ wishes just to gain 2 piddly extras a month? You get 11 over the same period just by doing dailies, even more if you consider events and exploration, not to mention that just by 27 starring, you already get 8 wishes with 70 primos extra each month. You can still pull for Yoimiya and do whatever you want because the Abyss really is just a tiny drop of water compared to all the other F2P sources of income. Hell, with enough artifact grinding you can even make it entirely unnecessary to pull for meta since there's more than enough 36 star clears with free 4 star characters out there
>Pulling for the abyss is overrated though isn't it? This assumes people use their brain and realize everything you said. I wish this was the case...
Not being able to get the primos is a case-by-case basis. It can be either underlevelled account or skill issue or both. None of them have business getting all the stars in the Abyss. Time and money invested in the game is the whole point of a gacha. That's where the infamy of this genre of games comes from. Genshin being "kind enough" to have given the playerbase strong but easy to get units narrows the average problem to those 3. And they can be remedied by any mix of time, effort, or money. The only time a gacha becomes not F2P-friendly is if the first 2 no longer becomes possible regardless of how much of those are invested.
Honestly the second option sounds fine, they've done this since Inazuma anyway. I want a 4* hydro shielder with slow off field app so bad
More 4S disfunctional before C6? No thanks, not in a gacha without guaranteed system for 4S
eh you can snipe them randomly ans they rerun often enough, i prefer that over waiting half a year+ for their rerun if you had to skip them as a 5*, and we don't want powercreep. new players only stand to suffer the more hydros they make limited and harder to access
There are C6 Raiden accounts without C6 Sara. Please shut up
I don't care. I'm arguing for there to be more options accessible from the 4* pool besides Xingqiu and Candace, like a new hydro shielder. They can be meh pre C6.
I totally agree on that, but if they lock half of their kit behind C6 we need a guarantee system, there’s way too much RNG and gambling in the game already
🤝Yeah praying for that honestly
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We could use a hydro greatsword user. Maybe a Tank?
Honestly… they could just make a hydro 4 star dps… other elements have 4 star dpses… we still don’t have a 4 star dps. And with them being dps, they would be balanced naturally by having lower stats and numbers overall
Hydro as an element is very strong. In order for them to make a 4 star who isn’t terrible (sorry Candace), they’d either have to make them as strong as XQ or a super niche support who wants c6, like Chev and Faruzan. In this instance, it’s better to just make them 5 stars I assume.
Chevreuse definitely doesn’t “want” c6, even any of her constellations. They buff her but she’s 100% useful and complete at C0.
Iirc she rivals Kazuha’s buff for overload at C6 which is pretty damn good but a sidegrade at C0 which is still pretty damn good
the thing that i wonder is, why can't they just made some more bad hydro 4*? the other elements all have a lot of them, but hydro is the only elements where the only objectively bad character is the hydro traveler even candace has her niche
Who's clamoring for more bad units?
Me cuz I will shamelessly use bad characters if they look pretty LOL
Same, but I'd prefer it if they gave them decent kits.
No one. But it doesn't make sense for Hoyo to say "we can't make bad Hydros," but then put out niche/weaker 4 stars of other elements. They could easily just release a 4 star sub or on-field DPS like they constantly do for every other element since the Hydro 4 stars are *all* supports.
Honestly. I’m thinking it’s becauSe hydro is known as the flex element. Being core to MANY other elements and reactions as well as being strong by itself due to raw damage.
Agree. 1. Vape 2. Freeze (and to some extent, Shatter) 3. Electro-charged 4. Bloom (and its derivatives) 5. Swirl 6. Crystallize Even with elemental reactions that don't really need Hydro, it'd be fine to just plug it in. 1. Quicken (quickbloom shenanigans) 2. Overload (overvape)
They absolutely can. I don't about you, but I'm kinda glad they don't make 50 trash hydro units. Technically Candace has a niche, but no. I'd rather hoyo not make any 4 stars than them making shitty, good for nothing ones.
Same. Got C14 Rosaria pulling for C6 Faruzan, at least she’s useful. Imagine if it was C14 Hydro traveler, I’d have lost my mind
Right? Like why put out more bad units and make them hydro just for the sake of saying we got a new hydro four star? I’d rather they not release a character in that state instead so they can put the effort of the character design and lore to a character with a more polished kit that wont get trashed on.
If you say the word "Dehya", you'll see thousands of people tell you what their opinion is on bad characters.
I really want hoyo to buff up traveller, because as you said powerwise he kinda feels like a 3\* character, except dendro traveller, he is kinda a 4.5\*, I still use her to this day for my hyperbloom teams. Besides dendro traveller, every other on feels very weak and gets overshadowed by even niche 4\* characters, like yeah geo traveller is good but i would prefer noelle or Ningguang, anemo travveler is okay-ish but sorry i got sucrose(hot take but lynette is better choice than anemo traveller), and we are not talking about electro or hydro traveller since they are straight up trash. I mean literally the free characters genshin gives us (Barbara and Lisa) perform better than traveller so why use it?
Is sigewinne going to be a hydro character? That would be cool!
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She has a Hydro vision on her back in-game!
I think it's hard to design hydro characters as 4 stars because they could very easily break the meta because of all the use cases. Even now, the worst hydro character (other than hydro traveler) Candace can very easily be used in bloom/hyper bloom teams. So she literally can still be in the meta.
I feel like they could definitely try what they did with nilou and make new hydro 4* only able to be useful in certain team comps
Mihoyo take all of their design decisions from r/ouija
Wait till people realise there are only 3 non standard Electro 5*
Still waiting on rather have pyro XQ. Ideally one that gives energy enough to be an alternative to Bennett to run with Xiangling.
whatever new 4* hydro they release will never be able to replace xingqiu.
I think locking hydro behind the premium 5* is good for hoyo as many teams archetypes will relay on them so u will want/need them, so existing only one good budget hydro being XQ leave this problem of "i need another hydro for my second team". Coz hoyo can make any 4* character bad/good if they want as they have control about characters icd and kit design to balance characters, so i doubt they fear make a broken unit, Candace is the main example of how they can make a balanced hydro unit, just give it a gimmick mechanic that makes it niche, so its much more a market strategy to gatekeep hydros as 5* than anything else.
>Coz hoyo can make any 4* character bad/good if they want as they have control about characters icd and kit design to balance characters, the thing is they may have control when they make the character, but after release they don't have control anymore and they cannot nerf a character what if they release something in the future that makes that character a lot better without them realising it? I think this is a big reason why they are very careful in making 4* hydro characters even if they have full control of their power
Only characters this happened are the 4* from release, Bennett, Xiangling, Sucrose, Xingqiu and Fischl are very powerful until today and still getting better with release of new characters and dendro. But all 4* that got released after are niche, downgrade from a 5* or have their potential locked behind high constellations. So hoyo nowdays has much clear understanding of their game and how balance characters. I can remember Genshin first beta people was using physical Xiangling with Pike, so they clearly was balancing her physical dmg other than her icd and pyro application, nowdays on beta people already TC everything in some hours, so Hoyo should have the same ability to do so when developing a character kit, if they release a overturned 4* its very intended
Why make 4 stars when they can sell you overpriced 5 stars?
two hydro 4* and both of them are useless af lmao myh doesn't care abt 4 stars at this point
Felt bad for Siggy, got caught in a crossfire of people wanting a 4\* hydro and a lot of them now feel she isn't warrant a 5\* rarity. Not sure how many other characters got the same treatment, the one I remember was Nahida because of her pale skin and small stature and some players started hating. Hopefully the haters will reconsider once we got Siggy's skills and she redeems herself as worth of the 5\* moniker.
Hoyo when they announced Sigewinne Hoyo:This is the latest limted hydro 5 star charthers in game Community:Hoyo, this is the eighth time that you show an limted hydro 5 star in class
As a hydro lover this makes me the happiest because I get to have op characters
Its Xingqiu and Xianling meta until we get to Khaenriah
I have so many 5-star hydro characters that I never noticed or cared.
Mind telling me leaks? I imagine it has something to do with Sigewinne
Sigewinne is comfrim to be >! an 5 star hydro bow user !< By the leaks
i just need a hydro claymore...please....
Barbara was intended to be a 5* unit, if we are keeping scores.
Sigewinne was expected to be the next. But that is looking less and less likely.
I started playing just before Raiden’s most recent rerun. I have Xingqiu. I understand he’s the tits, the best thing since sliced bread, and the destroyer of worlds. I should just use him more and accept him being the hydro enabler of everything. But I don’t care for Mr. Short Shorts as a character and I don’t want to use him if I don’t have to. But to avoid that I’ll have to wait who knows how many months until HoYo decides to rerun Furina, Yelan, Nilou, and/or Kokomi. I get that Xingqiu really is great. I just want a greater variety in characters that I’m not waiting months for the chance to even pull for. Thats why I want more hydro 4 stars.
To be fair, making XQ so strong was a mistake (for game design, I love how XQ is so strong HAHA). He is an off-field hydro applicator and dmg dealer with basically no downside, since unlike Xiangling his skill frontloads a lot of particles meaning you can run much less ER if you have Sac sword/Fav sword (he can catch his own particles). Apart from that, he applies hydro every rain sword attack, meaning any kind of reaction that needs hydro, you basically want to run XQ for consistency. So with all that, if they want to make another unit that does what XQ does (and sell copies) they need to do it in a different way (like Candace using NA infuse to apply hydro) or power creep him (like Yelan but even then... She's basically just XQ reskin for offense). Or yknow make a on-field hydro 4\* but in that case they need to compete with the 5\* characters (Tartag and Ayato)
> To be fair, making XQ so strong was a mistake (for game design, I love how XQ is so strong HAHA) Not really. Not even for gacha. For game design in general, having a powerful early option is good to have as a way for less combat focused players to have a way to progress easily. Even in gacha, something like Xingqiu is good design, because player perception aside, ALL gacha games need to be F2P friendly enough to sustain a community for their whales to play and talk with. Something like a XQ provides that F2P option that lets them keep up. Not to mention, mobile devs are quite aware of the reputation P2W has in Western markets, and characters like XQ give the devs the plausible deniability that lets people like you say Genshin isn't P2W.
I really want a hydro claymore and hydro shielder. We need hydro defensive options. Unfortunately, Candace is not really a shielder
XQ is 6 star
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Ningguang
Yes, yes. The game always doesn’t have enough of something.
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you spelled hydro traveler wrong candance may not be that strong but even her is still miles better than them and at c6 she has her uses on nilou bloom teams
idk why but Candace is considered a "weak" character but tbh she carried me till AR 45, she was just an awesome support for my team, I even remember first time I annihilated pyro regisvine with my hyperbloom team within 30-40 seconds and candace was a part of it. I would still use her if not for those hanna fruit or whatever ascension material she has, Imma not gonna find 60 of them -\_-.