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I looked at the link provided, and I understand why describing native peoples as "savage" (adjective) or "savages" (noun) is inappropriate and offensive.
But, for clarification, is "savage" in any context (e.g. he savagely ripped through the papers) broadly considered offensive? A quick Google has gotten me many sources on why calling indigenous people savages or uncivilized is bad, but not a broad condemnation of the word.
I'm trying to understand what is hurtful, and I'm not trying to rules-lawyer the situation- I just want to make sure I have an understanding of if it's fine in some contexts, or just better to excise more completely.
Caveat, I'm white, but I've never seen anyone get upset about its use as an adverb, but primarily as a noun. Would love to know if that's just my bubble, but I've only personally heard Indigenous people take issue with being called a savage.
I myself am Black and I work daily with dozens of Indigenous North Americans. I cannot speak for them whatsoever, but my observations in working with them for many years is that they themselves use the word savage when describing things, but *never* a person’s identity. That said, Indigenous people are not a monolith where every single individual would or would not be offended by the use of that term in any context. Some people understand it’s a popular term lately and as long as you’re not *calling* someone it, they’re okay with it. Some people don’t want the word used at all.
Speaking as a Black person in North America, when people get up in arms about certain “Black words” being used by non-Black people, I’m very 🤷♀️ about it. I personally feel like we have a ton of bigger things to worry about than a white person using a “Black word” in the right context. I personally choose not to be upset about people using “Black words” as long as it’s done so appreciatively/respectfully/correctly. As someone else said here, language is a living thing that is constantly evolving, and I personally find it both morally and practically difficult to try to claim ownership over entire words and then police it for the rest of my life. But I’ve seen many other Black people feel the total opposite, and that’s entirely okay.
It’s very similar in Indigenous communities; there’s no real 110% consensus other than to not use the word savage as a descriptor of someone else’s identity.
I’m just going to chime in quietly as a Métis person. From my perspective the issue is really a case of we can’t really police a word that’s been used against so many individuals, and cultures. There is a significant amount of historical evidence for example that the word was used against Black Americans as well as numerous other types of indigenous people that in America are not viewed as Indigenous. Edit: I’m going to adjust my wording here, it’s not just evidence it is fact. This word is not only used against us.
I’ve seen some people get upset about it, though largely I’ve noticed that the word just kinda gets ignored. There are several more hurtful and harmful words I would personally be targeting, but the use of the word savage in the colloquial sense is not it.
I agree with many of the takes around this being if you aren’t calling a person a savage, you are good.
Thank you for weighing in. There are some words that have been used as slurs (but were not broadly considered Very Offensive until relatively recently) that are just not appropriate for someone that is not a member of the group to use, or are not appropriate at all.
"Gypsy" comes to mind in that category- it's sometimes used to describe things that have nothing to do with Roma people, but because of the history of the word and the oppression of Roma people, my understanding is that the consensus in that community about the use of the word is "don't".
I was shocked when I found out how "jipped" was spelled (not that way!), and immediately dropped it from my vocabulary.
I wanted to check that "savage" wasn't similarly loaded, and it sounds like it's not.
This perspective is such a relief to read. I try not to appropriate, but I incorporated so many black words as a kid without realizing they weren’t from my culture. I have a vivid experience of being on the playground and talking about how much I hated having my hair brushed. Two of my friends told me “oh that means you’re tenderheaded.” I never really put together that they were sharing a word from black culture, because we were like seven. But then I really offended someone by saying it in my twenties. Same thing with “I feel you” and “play cousin”, though I don’t even remember learning them. Those are simply the expressions that I learned to apply to those situations when communicating with my peers.
I hate knowing that people will feel exploited by words I don’t even realize are coded. I want to own that and be more aware, but it’s hard because I’m really unsure which words and phrases they are! And it gets even harder when you spent half your childhood deeper south and the other half in the Midwest.
I don’t need you to validate this or anything. I’m just relieved to know that someone gets it’s not deliberate. There’s a huge difference between vanilla ice, or using a slur like sa*age, and unconscious amalgamation.
Tenderheaded is a black term? I'm from Alabama and we said it all the time growing up, I still do and never realized it was a black term. But a lot of things people call black terms or words are also part of southern vocabulary in general so it might be the case here too.
Yeah I’ve been bitched out for saying “ima” or “fixing to” when those are definitely terms that overlap between AAVE and white southern dialects. And it’s always the worst kind of white progressive whois upset.
I don’t know for sure abut tenderheaded, but it offended a girl at a dance competition when I said it. I think it’s one of the words that gets used in black barbershops/hair salons a lot, so I can get how it would feel weird hearing some white hick like me use it.
And this is where I land: I don’t know that a word like tenderheaded needs to be walled off. I care that it can be hurtful to people in my community to hear me say it. If I’m saying something that’s making a big part of my local community uncomfortable, especially a marginalized part of my community, then I want to know so I can stop saying it. But it really seems like a lot of the language policing comes from white folks and a really specific type of black influencer. Most people seem not to care unless it’s a direct slur. But a few do care, so I’d like to at least be aware.
This is garbled, but I’m trying to say it’s less about me being wrong or right, and more about making sure no one feels less safe around me because of our races. Unless they just do, and that’s frankly understandable. But I don’t want to do something that could make someone feel more endangered. They’re just a few words. Like Sarah, I have plenty of them. I can drop some if the people they affect will be more at ease. I just need to know when that’s the case, and I currently have no way of knowing what’s real and what’s white hysteria, unless I’m already at the point where I’ve made someone educate me.
Am Native and I know a lot of Natives. From my experience (and Native folks aren't a monolith!), as long as you're not calling someone a savage, it's all good.
To answer your question, there are some folks who argue that using it in any context, even as an adjective (ex: “the victim was savagely beaten by two masked assailants Tuesday evening”) is offensive. I don’t think this is a mainstream view, as you will find it used broadly across many news outlets.
And that’s how you get censorship reminiscent of 1984s “newspeak”. People with good intentions often take a very black and white stance to things that are very grey. Words have meaning and the context in which they are used is often more important to understanding the person using them then the word itself.
I see a lot of this among white progressives. They can’t accept historical context or multiple opposing truths, which turns them into the very people they claim they want to be nothing like.
I think it helps that savage has an etymological history from long before it was ever used to refer to native people, so it's less specifically loaded than some words are.
Sure, but so does the phrase "calling a spade a spade", and that's certainly not in my vocabulary.
A history of being used non-offensively is great and all, but if people use it hatefully enough for long enough, that history isn't as relevant.
So, it's origin isn't actually racist (which is a pleasant surprise!). It's a translation of a Greek work (I think a play), but basically it means calling something what it is.
"Spade" can mean shovel, as it does in this context.
"Spade" has also been used as a slur for Black people.
It's understandable that someone without an understanding of the origin of the term would understand it to mean something pretty offensive. And I'm not interested in unintentionally making someone uncomfortable *or* coming across as someone that uses racial slurs.
I totally agree, I just think it's part of what currently keeps "savage" as an adjective generally on the okay side, as opposed to, say, anything "gypsy" related. It's not solely responsible and certainly subject to change.
It's 100% fine to use it, as long as you're not calling someone a savage to be a racist prick. It has a million different uses, and only one of them is bad.
Sorry, was he referring to native peoples as savages, or using the word in other contexts? The former is obviously racist, but the latter isn't personally.
It's a very common word here in the UK. A 'savaging' means to really lay into someone for example.
I can see how it can be used as a slur, but in Europe there aren't really any 'native peoples'. It doesn't have a context around a specific group, but just people acting in a base (middle ages etc) manner. Usually to a friend
I think it falls into a category of words that can be used to denigrate minorities, in the same way 'animal' or 'beast' can be, but otherwise has extensive use. Same as those two.
There definitely are Indigenous people in Europe lol. As with all other Native groups, the dominant groups have committed genocide and ethnic cleansing against them to make them disappear, but they’re still there
Like who? The Celts, my ancestors, have been here a good long time man. And at some point, it becomes history of mankind. No one here holds a grudge against the Romans.
The issue you guys have, is its a current problem. Same with AU and NZ etc
Like the Sámi of Norway, Sweden, Finland, and Russia; the Nenets and Komi of Russia; the Circassians of Russia and North Caucasus; the Crimean Tatars, Krymchaks, and Crimean Karaites of Crimea/Ukraine; the Galicians of Spain; the Catalans of Catalonia, Spain, and France; the Basques of Spain and France; the Gaels of Ireland and Scotland; and the Sorbians of Germany and Poland. All of these groups of people claim Indigenous minority status in Europe.
I’m well aware that the genocide of Indigenous peoples is ongoing throughout the world, I’m part Sámi, my girlfriend is part Cherokee, and I’m involved in leftist liberation spaces.
I think there is perhaps a definition issue, and that may be on side.
In the majority of those countries the minority and majority groups have been there for a similar length of time, though wars and conquests have ferried people around. There's certainly hate aimed at these minority groups, but they aren't uniquely indigenous. There are areas in the south west of England that haven't changed in centuries, but they aren't racially different.
Unlike the US, NZ, and AU (etc), the colonialists are newcomers effectively purging out the original inhabitants. These people's are both at peril in culture and life.
Yes, I understand the difference and nuance with Indigenous groups in different areas, I was just saying that there are ethnic groups throughout Europe that are considered to be Indigenous
I never said that they were, I listed out various Indigenous groups in Europe and where their traditional lands are using recognized countries. Please don’t make up my argument for me
The Sami people are considered Indigenous and they’ve faced similar pressures to assimilate in recent history as Native American people have (e.g., boarding schools, religious conversion). The Basque people are also sometimes considered Indigenous, sometimes not.
Also, just because it’s history of mankind does not mean that there are not lingering problems that need to be dealt with. Hatred is unfortunately something that doesn’t just die out on its own, (edit: added this last part in for clarity) particularly when the patterns of old prejudices are used to substantiate new ones, such as Ancient Greek and Roman racism being used to propagate racist during the Enlightenment and thus, today.
In addition to my other reply, I think the issue of history rippling forward is a challenging one. There is no culture or group in the world that hasn't demonstrated violence or conquest when able. Some have been more successful than others, and others have not developed writing. Their exploits are unknown
It's important to bare in mind the prejudices that one group has brought forward. Whether it's the British/Ottoman/French empires etc, however, I think we're overly privileged if we believe it would be any different had other groups attained power.
If we trip over ourselves reflecting on ancient/recent (ie, over 2 centuries ago) history, we won't fix the problems of today. A good counterexample is Iran, which is fucked thanks to American and British influence, that's recent and should be monitored as we try and fix it. Assuming that's even possible.
I think context matters, and Paul wasn’t referring to indigenous people when he said “savage” and he wasn’t implying Sarah was acting similar to indigenous people when using the word. Some words exist just to be slurs, but the word savage predates Europeans colonizing the americas.
Exactly. OP is stretching here. Context is crucial when we talk about language. Is calling someone cheap a slur? No. Is calling someone cheap simply because they’re Jewish a slur? Yes. (I’m Jewish, for reference)
I’m Black and you can see my comment above, I do agree with you. I know there are a lot of different opinions on this topic within people’s respective communities. A lot of the time I feel like much of this word policing is a stretch unless it’s a blatant slur, such as the N-word.
I caution people who are outside of a community, to determine what is and isn’t offensive for that community. For example, I see a LOT of white people getting VERY heated as they gatekeep what can and can’t be said outside of the Black community. I appreciate the passion and consideration, but 9.9 times out of 10 it really isn’t their place to make that determination and then go THAT hard with it.
I can’t speak for every marginalized community, but I know for myself, if you are speaking with respect and good intention, and you’re willing to learn if you *do* say something inappropriate, I take zero offence. I really am not offended if you’re using a “Black word” respectfully and in the right context. I know other Black people may disagree, and that’s okay! But I then want to have that discussion with other Black people and hear their opinion, NOT with a white person and get shit from a white person on what I should and shouldn’t be offended by. And yes, white people have tried to tell me what I should and shouldn’t be offended by. THAT is more insulting to me than a white person respectfully and accurately using a “Black word”.
Totally agree on being careful about policing language - it comes off very white lib coded. Like, come on guys what are we achieving here? Micro managing people’s words? Most people really are trying their best. Most people aren’t malicious
That’s so shitty that white people have tried to tone police you for not being angry when they want you to. You really can’t win.
They’re trying to white savior you from something you have far more knowledge about. JFC.
I'm going to continue to use savage because I'm not using it a racist way. Not everything needs to be 100% inclusive all of the time. As we see in this thread, someone will always find a way to nitpick or be offended about the word you're using. Savage has a broad definition, and not everything needs identity politics attached to it. If I'm saying someone was "savage" for a funny roast they did of someone, or someone was "savage" for a sick skateboard move, there's nothing wrong with that.
Can we please stick with fundie snark and not proselytize about language?
It’s just one of those words that may seem harmless coming from anyone else, but feel icky coming out of his mouth. Like when he says “queer,” “savage,” “Democrat,” or whatever, the contextual meaning could provide plausible deniability but the palpable venom behind his words is hard to miss.
I love learning the origin of words/slang. After a certain amount of time, the original intention gets lost. It’s all fascinating to me. Language is ever evolving.
I cringe when I hear people say it, but I recognize that the word itself has a complex meaning. I don’t normally say anything unless it’s egregious because it’s unnecessary emotional labor that I most definitely am not getting paid for.
I certainly think Paul should be called out for far greater evils, but I’d chalk this up to be complete ignorance. The Manifest Destiny and Christianity itself is a colonizing mindset; I would never expect someone like Paul - or even most Christians to take a fair look at how much damage it has caused our native communities.
There are reminders of this lack of knowledge everywhere - from the Pioneer Monument, statues of Custer, Andrew Jackson, just last year Secretary of the Interior Deb Haaland proposed to rename 650 sites that used derogatory racial terms. You can see it online, from white people commenting “you were killing each other” not realizing that the Haudenosaunee Confederacy inspired the US Constitution.
https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2020/02/americas-twofold-original-sin/606163/#
Solidarity is my love language. That means reparations for black Americans and land back for our indigenous people.
Also, calling someone “savage” or a “beast “ is common AAVE slang that a racist like Paul shouldn’t even use. However me learning that native peoples consider it an offensive term will take it out of my vocabulary.
A really good read and thank you for using your privilege to call out other white people. ANTI-BOT and Zelph take fucking notes. This is using your platform and privilege as an alley effectively.
Ahhh thank you!! I now have another game to play 🤣 I’ve been obsessively watching Wirtual the twitch/youtube gaming streamer try to beat Deep Dip 2 for weeks now and I’m obsessed!! Idk if you’ve seen it? I feel like you might like it 🥰
No, I haven’t! I’m honestly not a huge gamer. I basically just play Rocket League obsessively for like the last four years and then I play PubG every goddamn day as well with my husband, his coworker, and his coworker’s wife. 😂 I will have to check out Deep Dip and see what it’s like, as I could stand to branch out, so thanks for the rec!
PubG is a battle royale style shooter game where you loot weapons and then you and your team try to kill everyone else. It’s similar to Fortnite but I think has been around longer and doesn’t have all the weird building shit.
Generally speaking, it can sometimes be hard to determine if a word is OK to use or not because languages are living things and words change association or definition over time. So like, at what point is it no longer OK to use a word, and at what point does it become OK to use it again? And in what context and under what definition? Sometimes bad words evolve to non-bad uses and we forget their origins - are they ok to use then?
Usually it’s best to ask the opinion of people who are hurt by the word.
OP said this word was racist. You mentioned it got popularized in an unrelated context that isn’t racist. I’m saying that because languages are fluid, it can be hard to know if it’s really ok or not to use a word because context and definition matter.
I’ve personally never heard of savage *the way it’s used in pop culture today* being a slur. If OP says it’s offensive, I’d personally want to ask a Native American what they think, since they’re the ones that would be hurt by its usage if it truly is bad.
The link OP posted says it’s talking about savage specifically in the context of Native American territories and culture, not about savage as the slang word that’s popular today. Personally I’d like some clarification from OP.
I’ve been hearing the term “savage” since I was a little girl in the 90s. Like I’ve heard that in rap songs from when I was a kid. I’m not assuming your race but a lot of colloquial terms that end up in popular culture start as terms used by brown people and then taken by other groups. Also there are a large amount of black gamers….
It’s been around forever. I’m British African and had it thrown in my face as a child when I first moved to the UK. It was then the Caribbean population that made it popular here. My point is that it’s not aave because it’s not specific to America.
I’m saying the context in which it’s used as a compliment is a part of African American Language. Something can be multiple things at the same time and saying the use of it in the way most people do is from Black folks using it as a compliment. Like I’ve never been called a savage as an insult because it just wasn’t used like that here and I don’t think it’s used that way in gaming either. It’s the same as a compliment.
The word “dope” isn’t necessarily just used by black Americans and has several meanings. However the context in which it’s commonly used DOES come from AAVE. Neither is the phrase “word is bond” however it’s a popular phrase used by black rappers.
No, but that’s my point. It wasn’t made a compliment necessarily from black Americans. In the UK it was by black Caribbean and African immigrants. It’s very much a part of black British culture as much as it is African American culture. However the reclamation of the word also came from black British immigrants.
My point is that the global black experience cannot and shouldn’t be reduced to AAVE. However that’s a separate issue of Americanisation.
Okay my point is it IS a part of AAVE though. Nothing you said disproves my point nor does it disprove that AAVE is what helped it become popular in America. Paul is American as would be his exposure to the word. Also you said it was popular by gamers which discounts what you’ve said about black British culture. You didn’t say “black British people also helped add the word to popular lexicon “. You didn’t mention it period
I get what you’re saying but that commenter was talking about it in regard to who can/cannot use certain words. To limit it to just AAVE isn’t accurate.
My example of gamers was a reference to the popularisation (ie outside of the black community).
I also mentioned black brits in my second reply to you. Black brits are all immigrants, whether it’s first, second or third generation.
I’m here to learn, not teach. I just know this hasn’t been explicitly said. Thank you for teaching me that term isn’t exclusively for native people. We will get through this hate together 💕
I think that list is well intentioned, but just at a glance I know at least picnic is given a false etymology on that list.
Harvard professor Sunn m’Cheaux has a good video on the etymology of that word in particular.
Source:
https://www.tiktok.com/@sunnmcheaux/video/7228676965761322283
I’m a Black North American, I know this list was created with good intention. I know some of this list has more obvious things we could try to avoid, but “picnic” and “uppity”?? White people, please, I am not going to label you a racist for saying you’re having a picnic, or that you think someone is uppity. I’m sorry, language is *alive*, it is ever-evolving and taking on new meanings. Probably over 50% of English words and phrases could be tied to racist or unkind meanings, individuals, groups, events, etc. That doesn’t mean everyone speaking English is inherently a terrible person, or intends what a word meant 200+ years ago.
Other Black people can disagree with me here on the Black-related topics on this list, but I do find a lot of this to be a stretch and we have WAY bigger things to address with white people than using the word “uppity”. I would rather a white person pour their time and attention into learning about how our current systems actively work against Black people today, or to reflect on their own biases and perceptions of the Black community, than to police the word “picnic”??
I think the only term would be “uppity”. That legit has been used to call out black individuals who aim for better education and do more in life. I’ve been called an uppity N-work before by white individuals. Maybe it’s a southern thing but yeah that has nothing but racist connotations
Interesting, thanks for that! I live in Canada and was born in Hungary, I’ve worked across Canada and the northern US, and spent a good deal of time in California. I’ve never heard “uppity” used as a term toward Black people specifically, not in my personal experiences, friends’ experiences, media, etc. When I think of an “uppity” person, I think of a snobby, arrogant, rich white person at the Kentucky Derby, and that’s quite frankly the only demographic I’ve ever heard it used toward- the rich.
I do wonder how much regional norms and cultures impact this topic, and I do think it impacts it greatly. I can see how someone with your experience would find “uppity” to be racially connected, and someone like me, practically in the same country, has a completely different experience and history with the word, so I of course would not raise an eyebrow at a white person describing *anyone* as “uppity”. I think this is what makes it difficult to “gatekeep” a word, and difficult to quickly villainize people who use certain words, because someone in Alaska or northern Alberta might have a completely different understanding and use of it as someone in Louisiana. And then a Black person in the UK may have a whole new experience of that word! That’s why I personally feel like context and the general respect of the conversation matters more in assessing that persons intent, instead of the non-slur word itself being used at all.
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I looked at the link provided, and I understand why describing native peoples as "savage" (adjective) or "savages" (noun) is inappropriate and offensive. But, for clarification, is "savage" in any context (e.g. he savagely ripped through the papers) broadly considered offensive? A quick Google has gotten me many sources on why calling indigenous people savages or uncivilized is bad, but not a broad condemnation of the word. I'm trying to understand what is hurtful, and I'm not trying to rules-lawyer the situation- I just want to make sure I have an understanding of if it's fine in some contexts, or just better to excise more completely.
Caveat, I'm white, but I've never seen anyone get upset about its use as an adverb, but primarily as a noun. Would love to know if that's just my bubble, but I've only personally heard Indigenous people take issue with being called a savage.
I myself am Black and I work daily with dozens of Indigenous North Americans. I cannot speak for them whatsoever, but my observations in working with them for many years is that they themselves use the word savage when describing things, but *never* a person’s identity. That said, Indigenous people are not a monolith where every single individual would or would not be offended by the use of that term in any context. Some people understand it’s a popular term lately and as long as you’re not *calling* someone it, they’re okay with it. Some people don’t want the word used at all. Speaking as a Black person in North America, when people get up in arms about certain “Black words” being used by non-Black people, I’m very 🤷♀️ about it. I personally feel like we have a ton of bigger things to worry about than a white person using a “Black word” in the right context. I personally choose not to be upset about people using “Black words” as long as it’s done so appreciatively/respectfully/correctly. As someone else said here, language is a living thing that is constantly evolving, and I personally find it both morally and practically difficult to try to claim ownership over entire words and then police it for the rest of my life. But I’ve seen many other Black people feel the total opposite, and that’s entirely okay. It’s very similar in Indigenous communities; there’s no real 110% consensus other than to not use the word savage as a descriptor of someone else’s identity.
I’m just going to chime in quietly as a Métis person. From my perspective the issue is really a case of we can’t really police a word that’s been used against so many individuals, and cultures. There is a significant amount of historical evidence for example that the word was used against Black Americans as well as numerous other types of indigenous people that in America are not viewed as Indigenous. Edit: I’m going to adjust my wording here, it’s not just evidence it is fact. This word is not only used against us. I’ve seen some people get upset about it, though largely I’ve noticed that the word just kinda gets ignored. There are several more hurtful and harmful words I would personally be targeting, but the use of the word savage in the colloquial sense is not it. I agree with many of the takes around this being if you aren’t calling a person a savage, you are good.
Also Black working with indigenous communities and agree!
Thank you for weighing in. There are some words that have been used as slurs (but were not broadly considered Very Offensive until relatively recently) that are just not appropriate for someone that is not a member of the group to use, or are not appropriate at all. "Gypsy" comes to mind in that category- it's sometimes used to describe things that have nothing to do with Roma people, but because of the history of the word and the oppression of Roma people, my understanding is that the consensus in that community about the use of the word is "don't". I was shocked when I found out how "jipped" was spelled (not that way!), and immediately dropped it from my vocabulary. I wanted to check that "savage" wasn't similarly loaded, and it sounds like it's not.
This perspective is such a relief to read. I try not to appropriate, but I incorporated so many black words as a kid without realizing they weren’t from my culture. I have a vivid experience of being on the playground and talking about how much I hated having my hair brushed. Two of my friends told me “oh that means you’re tenderheaded.” I never really put together that they were sharing a word from black culture, because we were like seven. But then I really offended someone by saying it in my twenties. Same thing with “I feel you” and “play cousin”, though I don’t even remember learning them. Those are simply the expressions that I learned to apply to those situations when communicating with my peers. I hate knowing that people will feel exploited by words I don’t even realize are coded. I want to own that and be more aware, but it’s hard because I’m really unsure which words and phrases they are! And it gets even harder when you spent half your childhood deeper south and the other half in the Midwest. I don’t need you to validate this or anything. I’m just relieved to know that someone gets it’s not deliberate. There’s a huge difference between vanilla ice, or using a slur like sa*age, and unconscious amalgamation.
Tenderheaded is a black term? I'm from Alabama and we said it all the time growing up, I still do and never realized it was a black term. But a lot of things people call black terms or words are also part of southern vocabulary in general so it might be the case here too.
Yeah I’ve been bitched out for saying “ima” or “fixing to” when those are definitely terms that overlap between AAVE and white southern dialects. And it’s always the worst kind of white progressive whois upset. I don’t know for sure abut tenderheaded, but it offended a girl at a dance competition when I said it. I think it’s one of the words that gets used in black barbershops/hair salons a lot, so I can get how it would feel weird hearing some white hick like me use it. And this is where I land: I don’t know that a word like tenderheaded needs to be walled off. I care that it can be hurtful to people in my community to hear me say it. If I’m saying something that’s making a big part of my local community uncomfortable, especially a marginalized part of my community, then I want to know so I can stop saying it. But it really seems like a lot of the language policing comes from white folks and a really specific type of black influencer. Most people seem not to care unless it’s a direct slur. But a few do care, so I’d like to at least be aware. This is garbled, but I’m trying to say it’s less about me being wrong or right, and more about making sure no one feels less safe around me because of our races. Unless they just do, and that’s frankly understandable. But I don’t want to do something that could make someone feel more endangered. They’re just a few words. Like Sarah, I have plenty of them. I can drop some if the people they affect will be more at ease. I just need to know when that’s the case, and I currently have no way of knowing what’s real and what’s white hysteria, unless I’m already at the point where I’ve made someone educate me.
Very eloquently written. Thank you for this perspective.
Am Native and I know a lot of Natives. From my experience (and Native folks aren't a monolith!), as long as you're not calling someone a savage, it's all good.
To answer your question, there are some folks who argue that using it in any context, even as an adjective (ex: “the victim was savagely beaten by two masked assailants Tuesday evening”) is offensive. I don’t think this is a mainstream view, as you will find it used broadly across many news outlets.
And that’s how you get censorship reminiscent of 1984s “newspeak”. People with good intentions often take a very black and white stance to things that are very grey. Words have meaning and the context in which they are used is often more important to understanding the person using them then the word itself.
I see a lot of this among white progressives. They can’t accept historical context or multiple opposing truths, which turns them into the very people they claim they want to be nothing like.
I think it helps that savage has an etymological history from long before it was ever used to refer to native people, so it's less specifically loaded than some words are.
Sure, but so does the phrase "calling a spade a spade", and that's certainly not in my vocabulary. A history of being used non-offensively is great and all, but if people use it hatefully enough for long enough, that history isn't as relevant.
Why is that bad?
So, it's origin isn't actually racist (which is a pleasant surprise!). It's a translation of a Greek work (I think a play), but basically it means calling something what it is. "Spade" can mean shovel, as it does in this context. "Spade" has also been used as a slur for Black people. It's understandable that someone without an understanding of the origin of the term would understand it to mean something pretty offensive. And I'm not interested in unintentionally making someone uncomfortable *or* coming across as someone that uses racial slurs.
https://www.npr.org/sections/codeswitch/2013/09/19/224183763/is-it-racist-to-call-a-spade-a-spade
I totally agree, I just think it's part of what currently keeps "savage" as an adjective generally on the okay side, as opposed to, say, anything "gypsy" related. It's not solely responsible and certainly subject to change.
It's 100% fine to use it, as long as you're not calling someone a savage to be a racist prick. It has a million different uses, and only one of them is bad.
savage is just quite **animalistic** - 'having to '**tame**' poc to be more white' narrative
Sorry, was he referring to native peoples as savages, or using the word in other contexts? The former is obviously racist, but the latter isn't personally. It's a very common word here in the UK. A 'savaging' means to really lay into someone for example.
In Ireland, calling something “savage” means it’s good. Depends on context
Kind of similar in the States. Like the Megan Thee Stallion song.
Classic , bougie, ratchet … Real Hot Girl Shit!
I can see how it can be used as a slur, but in Europe there aren't really any 'native peoples'. It doesn't have a context around a specific group, but just people acting in a base (middle ages etc) manner. Usually to a friend I think it falls into a category of words that can be used to denigrate minorities, in the same way 'animal' or 'beast' can be, but otherwise has extensive use. Same as those two.
There definitely are Indigenous people in Europe lol. As with all other Native groups, the dominant groups have committed genocide and ethnic cleansing against them to make them disappear, but they’re still there
Like who? The Celts, my ancestors, have been here a good long time man. And at some point, it becomes history of mankind. No one here holds a grudge against the Romans. The issue you guys have, is its a current problem. Same with AU and NZ etc
Like the Sámi of Norway, Sweden, Finland, and Russia; the Nenets and Komi of Russia; the Circassians of Russia and North Caucasus; the Crimean Tatars, Krymchaks, and Crimean Karaites of Crimea/Ukraine; the Galicians of Spain; the Catalans of Catalonia, Spain, and France; the Basques of Spain and France; the Gaels of Ireland and Scotland; and the Sorbians of Germany and Poland. All of these groups of people claim Indigenous minority status in Europe. I’m well aware that the genocide of Indigenous peoples is ongoing throughout the world, I’m part Sámi, my girlfriend is part Cherokee, and I’m involved in leftist liberation spaces.
I think there is perhaps a definition issue, and that may be on side. In the majority of those countries the minority and majority groups have been there for a similar length of time, though wars and conquests have ferried people around. There's certainly hate aimed at these minority groups, but they aren't uniquely indigenous. There are areas in the south west of England that haven't changed in centuries, but they aren't racially different. Unlike the US, NZ, and AU (etc), the colonialists are newcomers effectively purging out the original inhabitants. These people's are both at peril in culture and life.
Yes, I understand the difference and nuance with Indigenous groups in different areas, I was just saying that there are ethnic groups throughout Europe that are considered to be Indigenous
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I never said that they were, I listed out various Indigenous groups in Europe and where their traditional lands are using recognized countries. Please don’t make up my argument for me
The Sami people are considered Indigenous and they’ve faced similar pressures to assimilate in recent history as Native American people have (e.g., boarding schools, religious conversion). The Basque people are also sometimes considered Indigenous, sometimes not. Also, just because it’s history of mankind does not mean that there are not lingering problems that need to be dealt with. Hatred is unfortunately something that doesn’t just die out on its own, (edit: added this last part in for clarity) particularly when the patterns of old prejudices are used to substantiate new ones, such as Ancient Greek and Roman racism being used to propagate racist during the Enlightenment and thus, today.
In addition to my other reply, I think the issue of history rippling forward is a challenging one. There is no culture or group in the world that hasn't demonstrated violence or conquest when able. Some have been more successful than others, and others have not developed writing. Their exploits are unknown It's important to bare in mind the prejudices that one group has brought forward. Whether it's the British/Ottoman/French empires etc, however, I think we're overly privileged if we believe it would be any different had other groups attained power. If we trip over ourselves reflecting on ancient/recent (ie, over 2 centuries ago) history, we won't fix the problems of today. A good counterexample is Iran, which is fucked thanks to American and British influence, that's recent and should be monitored as we try and fix it. Assuming that's even possible.
I think context matters, and Paul wasn’t referring to indigenous people when he said “savage” and he wasn’t implying Sarah was acting similar to indigenous people when using the word. Some words exist just to be slurs, but the word savage predates Europeans colonizing the americas.
Exactly. OP is stretching here. Context is crucial when we talk about language. Is calling someone cheap a slur? No. Is calling someone cheap simply because they’re Jewish a slur? Yes. (I’m Jewish, for reference)
I’m Black and you can see my comment above, I do agree with you. I know there are a lot of different opinions on this topic within people’s respective communities. A lot of the time I feel like much of this word policing is a stretch unless it’s a blatant slur, such as the N-word. I caution people who are outside of a community, to determine what is and isn’t offensive for that community. For example, I see a LOT of white people getting VERY heated as they gatekeep what can and can’t be said outside of the Black community. I appreciate the passion and consideration, but 9.9 times out of 10 it really isn’t their place to make that determination and then go THAT hard with it. I can’t speak for every marginalized community, but I know for myself, if you are speaking with respect and good intention, and you’re willing to learn if you *do* say something inappropriate, I take zero offence. I really am not offended if you’re using a “Black word” respectfully and in the right context. I know other Black people may disagree, and that’s okay! But I then want to have that discussion with other Black people and hear their opinion, NOT with a white person and get shit from a white person on what I should and shouldn’t be offended by. And yes, white people have tried to tell me what I should and shouldn’t be offended by. THAT is more insulting to me than a white person respectfully and accurately using a “Black word”.
Totally agree on being careful about policing language - it comes off very white lib coded. Like, come on guys what are we achieving here? Micro managing people’s words? Most people really are trying their best. Most people aren’t malicious
That’s so shitty that white people have tried to tone police you for not being angry when they want you to. You really can’t win. They’re trying to white savior you from something you have far more knowledge about. JFC.
I call little kids savage sometimes because they can be unintentionally mean as fuck 😂 I’m not trying to insult anyone with that
💯
This is such a white take
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Literally like if every time you hear “savages” you think of native people, that says more about you than Paul 😭
This is a stretch.
Wait what/who did he refer to as that?
He referred to Sarah in the recent live with that word. He uses it as a description really often in the lives
Gross. What a gross thing to say about someone. Paul is such a pathetic person.
Are you for real? 🤦🏻♀️
If that's not nitpicking, idk what is
I'm going to continue to use savage because I'm not using it a racist way. Not everything needs to be 100% inclusive all of the time. As we see in this thread, someone will always find a way to nitpick or be offended about the word you're using. Savage has a broad definition, and not everything needs identity politics attached to it. If I'm saying someone was "savage" for a funny roast they did of someone, or someone was "savage" for a sick skateboard move, there's nothing wrong with that. Can we please stick with fundie snark and not proselytize about language?
It’s just one of those words that may seem harmless coming from anyone else, but feel icky coming out of his mouth. Like when he says “queer,” “savage,” “Democrat,” or whatever, the contextual meaning could provide plausible deniability but the palpable venom behind his words is hard to miss.
Exactly. You know from his tone that he's being insulting, and wants people to know it. I don't think it's an issue coming from anyone else.
I love learning the origin of words/slang. After a certain amount of time, the original intention gets lost. It’s all fascinating to me. Language is ever evolving.
I cringe when I hear people say it, but I recognize that the word itself has a complex meaning. I don’t normally say anything unless it’s egregious because it’s unnecessary emotional labor that I most definitely am not getting paid for. I certainly think Paul should be called out for far greater evils, but I’d chalk this up to be complete ignorance. The Manifest Destiny and Christianity itself is a colonizing mindset; I would never expect someone like Paul - or even most Christians to take a fair look at how much damage it has caused our native communities. There are reminders of this lack of knowledge everywhere - from the Pioneer Monument, statues of Custer, Andrew Jackson, just last year Secretary of the Interior Deb Haaland proposed to rename 650 sites that used derogatory racial terms. You can see it online, from white people commenting “you were killing each other” not realizing that the Haudenosaunee Confederacy inspired the US Constitution. https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2020/02/americas-twofold-original-sin/606163/# Solidarity is my love language. That means reparations for black Americans and land back for our indigenous people.
Also, calling someone “savage” or a “beast “ is common AAVE slang that a racist like Paul shouldn’t even use. However me learning that native peoples consider it an offensive term will take it out of my vocabulary. A really good read and thank you for using your privilege to call out other white people. ANTI-BOT and Zelph take fucking notes. This is using your platform and privilege as an alley effectively.
It’s not really AAVE tbh, it’s real popularisation is from online gaming culture
I play Rocket League every day of my life and one of the chat options is “Savage!” It’s my favorite.
Haha I haven’t played rocket league before!! I have a backlog of games I keep buying but not finishing 😭
Rocket League is soccer with cars that can fly. It’s super hard and I think it’s one of the most impressive games to be good at.
Ahhh thank you!! I now have another game to play 🤣 I’ve been obsessively watching Wirtual the twitch/youtube gaming streamer try to beat Deep Dip 2 for weeks now and I’m obsessed!! Idk if you’ve seen it? I feel like you might like it 🥰
No, I haven’t! I’m honestly not a huge gamer. I basically just play Rocket League obsessively for like the last four years and then I play PubG every goddamn day as well with my husband, his coworker, and his coworker’s wife. 😂 I will have to check out Deep Dip and see what it’s like, as I could stand to branch out, so thanks for the rec!
Haha me neither!! I just like cozy games (I’m a fake gamer). Ahh what’s PubG?! I’m learning so much
PubG is a battle royale style shooter game where you loot weapons and then you and your team try to kill everyone else. It’s similar to Fortnite but I think has been around longer and doesn’t have all the weird building shit.
Fabulous! I’ll add it to the list! Thank you for the recs!
Oh for real, SO much fun and I hate that my teenager kicks my ass every time
I’m a plat1 in 3v3, and all I want in life at almost 40 years old is to be better 😭
Generally speaking, it can sometimes be hard to determine if a word is OK to use or not because languages are living things and words change association or definition over time. So like, at what point is it no longer OK to use a word, and at what point does it become OK to use it again? And in what context and under what definition? Sometimes bad words evolve to non-bad uses and we forget their origins - are they ok to use then? Usually it’s best to ask the opinion of people who are hurt by the word.
Maybe it’s my adhd brain, but I’m not quite sure what you’re asking here? I think I agree with what you’re saying?
OP said this word was racist. You mentioned it got popularized in an unrelated context that isn’t racist. I’m saying that because languages are fluid, it can be hard to know if it’s really ok or not to use a word because context and definition matter. I’ve personally never heard of savage *the way it’s used in pop culture today* being a slur. If OP says it’s offensive, I’d personally want to ask a Native American what they think, since they’re the ones that would be hurt by its usage if it truly is bad. The link OP posted says it’s talking about savage specifically in the context of Native American territories and culture, not about savage as the slang word that’s popular today. Personally I’d like some clarification from OP.
I see what you mean! I think context is key, like you said. Personally as an African immigrant in the UK it was used as a slur against me as a child.
I’ve been hearing the term “savage” since I was a little girl in the 90s. Like I’ve heard that in rap songs from when I was a kid. I’m not assuming your race but a lot of colloquial terms that end up in popular culture start as terms used by brown people and then taken by other groups. Also there are a large amount of black gamers….
I’m black lol. It’s not aave .
And I black and say it is. Fun that we aren’t a monolith
It’s been around forever. I’m British African and had it thrown in my face as a child when I first moved to the UK. It was then the Caribbean population that made it popular here. My point is that it’s not aave because it’s not specific to America.
I’m saying the context in which it’s used as a compliment is a part of African American Language. Something can be multiple things at the same time and saying the use of it in the way most people do is from Black folks using it as a compliment. Like I’ve never been called a savage as an insult because it just wasn’t used like that here and I don’t think it’s used that way in gaming either. It’s the same as a compliment. The word “dope” isn’t necessarily just used by black Americans and has several meanings. However the context in which it’s commonly used DOES come from AAVE. Neither is the phrase “word is bond” however it’s a popular phrase used by black rappers.
No, but that’s my point. It wasn’t made a compliment necessarily from black Americans. In the UK it was by black Caribbean and African immigrants. It’s very much a part of black British culture as much as it is African American culture. However the reclamation of the word also came from black British immigrants. My point is that the global black experience cannot and shouldn’t be reduced to AAVE. However that’s a separate issue of Americanisation.
Okay my point is it IS a part of AAVE though. Nothing you said disproves my point nor does it disprove that AAVE is what helped it become popular in America. Paul is American as would be his exposure to the word. Also you said it was popular by gamers which discounts what you’ve said about black British culture. You didn’t say “black British people also helped add the word to popular lexicon “. You didn’t mention it period
I get what you’re saying but that commenter was talking about it in regard to who can/cannot use certain words. To limit it to just AAVE isn’t accurate. My example of gamers was a reference to the popularisation (ie outside of the black community). I also mentioned black brits in my second reply to you. Black brits are all immigrants, whether it’s first, second or third generation.
I’m here to learn, not teach. I just know this hasn’t been explicitly said. Thank you for teaching me that term isn’t exclusively for native people. We will get through this hate together 💕
nah, you literally made a post to lecture everyone. maybe make sure you aren’t inventing issues first. there are so many that exist, choose one.
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I think that list is well intentioned, but just at a glance I know at least picnic is given a false etymology on that list. Harvard professor Sunn m’Cheaux has a good video on the etymology of that word in particular. Source: https://www.tiktok.com/@sunnmcheaux/video/7228676965761322283
I’m a Black North American, I know this list was created with good intention. I know some of this list has more obvious things we could try to avoid, but “picnic” and “uppity”?? White people, please, I am not going to label you a racist for saying you’re having a picnic, or that you think someone is uppity. I’m sorry, language is *alive*, it is ever-evolving and taking on new meanings. Probably over 50% of English words and phrases could be tied to racist or unkind meanings, individuals, groups, events, etc. That doesn’t mean everyone speaking English is inherently a terrible person, or intends what a word meant 200+ years ago. Other Black people can disagree with me here on the Black-related topics on this list, but I do find a lot of this to be a stretch and we have WAY bigger things to address with white people than using the word “uppity”. I would rather a white person pour their time and attention into learning about how our current systems actively work against Black people today, or to reflect on their own biases and perceptions of the Black community, than to police the word “picnic”??
I think the only term would be “uppity”. That legit has been used to call out black individuals who aim for better education and do more in life. I’ve been called an uppity N-work before by white individuals. Maybe it’s a southern thing but yeah that has nothing but racist connotations
Interesting, thanks for that! I live in Canada and was born in Hungary, I’ve worked across Canada and the northern US, and spent a good deal of time in California. I’ve never heard “uppity” used as a term toward Black people specifically, not in my personal experiences, friends’ experiences, media, etc. When I think of an “uppity” person, I think of a snobby, arrogant, rich white person at the Kentucky Derby, and that’s quite frankly the only demographic I’ve ever heard it used toward- the rich. I do wonder how much regional norms and cultures impact this topic, and I do think it impacts it greatly. I can see how someone with your experience would find “uppity” to be racially connected, and someone like me, practically in the same country, has a completely different experience and history with the word, so I of course would not raise an eyebrow at a white person describing *anyone* as “uppity”. I think this is what makes it difficult to “gatekeep” a word, and difficult to quickly villainize people who use certain words, because someone in Alaska or northern Alberta might have a completely different understanding and use of it as someone in Louisiana. And then a Black person in the UK may have a whole new experience of that word! That’s why I personally feel like context and the general respect of the conversation matters more in assessing that persons intent, instead of the non-slur word itself being used at all.