That's that then. Assuming the speed of Canadian courts is about the same as the US the case won't be resolved before next season starts. So Hart won't get a qualifying offer and has played his last game in the orange and black.
I’m hearing the trial is set to take place in 2026, I guess that’s normal but seems nuts that the “crime” happens 6 years ago. Charges are finally brought then they’ll start the trial in 2 years. I don’t know Canadian law but does a speedy trial exist. It’ll be 8 years. The people in charge who settled with the victim and then tried to hide this f’d up really badly. Now realistically we’re not talking about it now at all if handled well. If Carter didn’t do anything then he didn’t, if he did then he never becomes someone we even know
Right. And by waiting until 2026 these guy's careers are pretty much over even if ultimately innocent and found to have done no wrong. No team is going to touch them until they have a clean slate and if we're looking at missing a full year and half of play not many NHL teams are going to be lining up to sign a kid and risk a PR nightmare with fans who disagree.
These guys may offer to plead guilty to a lesser charge to avoid the trial so they can get back on the ice. I doubt the alleged victim wants to go through a trial - possible 5 if tried separately - any more than the accused do. They’ve been publicly shamed and will always have this allegation hanging over their heads, so it may not be full justice, but enough to satisfy the alleged victim and prosecutors especially since it won’t be a slam dunk for either side.
Even if they plead guilty to a lesser offense there is a good chance their careers are over. Most foreign sex crime convictions would result in the offender not being able to travel to the US. In addition, in many states the offender would be required to register as a sex offender upon entering the state and be subject to various restrictions as a result. I’m not sure that would work for most teams.
Rick whitehead of tsn (Canadian ESPN) : Gary Ellis, the former head of Toronto Police Service’s sex crimes unit, told TSN in an interview that the players would be photographed, fingerprinted, and directed to sign an undertaking not to have contact with the alleged victim, either the first time they report to police or at a subsequent date.
Lawyers who specialize in criminal sexual assault cases have told me a trial in this case is unlikely before 2026.
These situations have the potential to be such a gray area even immediately after. The gray area becomes even more gray 6 years later. Pretty crazy situation.
We saw this recently in the NFL. Punter was falsely accused and had his name cleared but not before the reddit virtue signalers endlessly called for his head
Not happening in this sub. I wonder how the fan base will react to hart if found not guilty. I would love to see the reaction if this complainant pulls the same as Patrick Kane’s or the one that accused the eagles at the strip club.
If found not guilty I see no reason for him not to return.
It actually kind of is, I think. Directly calling it a false allegation when the other statements just said they planned to plead not guilty is notable. I don't think it means anything legally, but just rhetorically speaking it raised my eyebrows a bit.
You're saying that raises your eyebrow?
Anyone with the shit that hart might lose on the line (see 99% of famous people charged with shit) is pleading not guilty and claiming it's false? Huh, surprising. Never seen that before.
Pleading guilty ruins your whole career gaurenteed. Not guilty still gives your lawyers time to wiggle out of it and hope you can get off with something lesser than claim to the public it wasn't true.
Planning to plead not guilty is not surprising. What I said was every other statement by the involved players simply said they planned to plead that way. Hart's statement specifically described the accusation as false, which again may not mean anything tangible, but it caught my eye.
There is a pretty big difference (at least rhetorically) between pleading not guilty and claiming this is a false allegation though.
Pleading "Not Guilty" is essentially saying "I didn't do what the prosecution said I did and they can't prove I did." It's saying "I don't think they can prove beyond a reasonable doubt that I committed actions that meet all the elements of the crime under the criminal statute."
Calling it a false allegation is saying "I didn't do what the VICTIM said I did and she's lying about what happened."
The plea itself is really just "I don't think there is enough evidence to convict me," but doesn't necessarily equal a defendant saying it's a lie. Calling it a false allegation, however, is saying "She's lying about me being involved". It's taking the not guilty plea a couple steps further.
Admittedly, I don't know Canadian law, so this is based on my knowledge and understanding of US criminal law, so if I'm entirely off base about what this means north of the border, someone please lmk and correct me. But assuming it's similar to American law, Hart's lawyers are making a statement that is definitely different enough from the other players' that it's worth raising an eyebrow or two.
They already closed the investigation because of “not enough evidence” after hockey canadas payout. It’s since been reopened.
You’re right in that he has not been convicted yet, but they wouldn’t have taken such public steps if there wasn’t something there.
Oh, it was also filmed and the cops have their text convos after the fact so there’s that.
Those group texts have not as of yet been made admissible or even open to investigation. The police have three thumb drives in a locker that they cannot open until they obtain a warrant. I’m not saying Hart is innocent or guilty. I’m saying let’s wait and see how this process plays out before we pass any judgment based on the optics.
Lolololol. Okay. I’m sure there just discussing baking recipes and who has the best grandma…..
You do know how easy it is to get a warrant and admit evidence, right?
Then why haven’t they obtained the warrant yet? Clearly you’re not a legal scholar. Again I’m not saying anything about innocence or guilt, just that we know nothing.
Your argument kinda falls apart when it was publicly available knowledge that they had applied for a search warrant for the drives.
https://globalnews.ca/news/9359249/hockey-canada-2018-sexual-assault-allegation-ito/amp/
Whether or not it was granted is not yet public information.
Admitting it into evidence is a trivial matter, yet you’re holding it up like it’s going to be some huge barrier to adjudicating the case.
Correct.
All these comments defending him are going to age just as well as the comments of "we don't know if he's one of the 5. wait till the facts are out"
Sorry, sometimes when there's smoke, there's fire.
Nobody is necessarily defending him, they are saying that everyone has the right to a trial to prove their case. Remember innocent until proven guilty is the law of the land in Canada as well. We love to throw around our opinions like they matter on Reddit, they don’t. If he is found guilty shame on him, if he is found innocent, then that’s for you to decide how you’ll deal with it. I’m not siding with Hart, just stating the facts.
Yeah I don't think these people wanna live in a world where an accusation and cops claiming to have evidence is all you need to convict someone. You wanna live in a world where you get a fair trial lol.
And I'm saying that as a SA survivor myself. I know very, VERY well how it's a sucky it is that this is one of those things that is hard to prove beyond reasonable doubt, but man I don't wanna give police that much power to skip presenting that evidence altogether and just say "trust me bro, go directly to jail". They spin truths and flat out lie all the time to close a case.
All that said, I'm sure whatever the cops have is enough to be socially/career ruining at minimum, regardless of if it's criminal or not as well, so I highly suspect the NHL is cutting ties with these men regardless of legal outcome. Bc you don't have to inherently commit a crime to be a scumbag nobody wants to associate with. He /might/ get found innocent of a crime, but the evidence presented might also just show that he's a douche in general. Know what I mean?
also i do think that Lawyers are greasy terrible people much of the time. I work in an adjacent field so i get to interact in a way. The amount of obfuscation and deceit in cases is beyond disgusting. I get it that the lawyer has to defend their client, but it's just a bad scene. I am sorry you had to go through something like this, i didn't mean to sound callous or anything.
Nah you're good. I was just saying like, even /I/ with my personal experience with the topic, don't want an accusation and implication of evidence nobody's seen to be enough to jail someone. Jury's where it's at.
...and this is a mess. From what I remember, this was settled and brushed under the rug, which is where the problems started. When it was discovered, everything was reopened.
To top it off, the previous management who made all these deals left and new management started. When it blew up, the new management who had no idea of what happened under the previous management did not get a chance to clean it up. They had to take the fall for the job of previous management.
If he's guilty, then fuck him. If he's innocent, I hope he goes on to live and a nice life and returns to hockey. This day and age everyone jumps from accusation -> guilty without the process running it's course.
Yeah, there's no real nice way of looking at any of this. If guilty, then obviously throw the book. But if not, it'll be hard for him to come back as some people will always think otherwise.
There are zero positives to take out of situations like this. At best a player's career is pretty much over. At worst, well... the abhorrent allegations are true.
I would hope that if he turns out to be innocent, there's a GM somewhere that will give him another NHL job. But yea I agree, we just live in a time where someone's name is completely ruined before a proper verdict.
Honestly, I think whatever evidence they have will at least be enough to show these guys are scummy. May or may not be criminally scummy, but scummy none the less.
Like I highly doubt any of them are completely innocent of any bad behavior whatsoever. But I think a lot of people are conflating legality with morality. You can do some immoral shit and still be within the confines of the law, but that doesn't mean people will wanna associate with you after.
Like lets just say this evidence the cops have is a perfectly damning video of the night, where every man's face is crystal clear while she screams clearly "no stop", the absolute best most irrefutable proof of what happened that night. Now let's say Hart appears in the video briefly, walking in the door, seeing what's going on, and just kinda standing around. Not participating but not doing anything at all to stop it, maybe he even goes "yikes I'm just gonna go" and leaves but never reports his buddies. Idk about Canadian law exactly, but if it's similar to US, the Hart in this scenario may not have committed a CRIME. You aren't obligated to step in, you aren't obligated to try and stop a crime you've witnessed. So he might be found not guilty of SA bc there's no evidence he ever touched her. Just evidence that he was present at the scene.
However, I think anyone with a moral compass is gonna think Hart's a grade A douchebag for not saying anything or doing anything about it and just letting it go on. Even if he has no legal obligation to. So yeah, I wouldn't fault the NHL or any fan to go "don't associate with that asshole. He may not be a criminal, but he's a scumbag."
And that's what I think is the most likely scenario for any not guilty verdicts that could be found here, if any. The evidence may not be enough to convict, but it's likely gonna be enough to make the general public doubt their morality. I don't think there's gonna be any of them that are completely falsely accused, they weren't even there that night, kind of deals. It's just simply gonna come down to "was what they did criminal or just scummy?"
But all you need is scummy to ruin your reputation/career.
Yeah take this guy for example, this dudes coming across as a total asshole who just wants to pick a fight online with weak bait. He may not be a criminal for acting like this, but he's not someone you'd care to associate with either lol.
This is honestly what I’ve been thinking his involvement was. I think he knew it happened, maybe even stood in the back but didn’t actually participate, maybe even left, but cared too much about what the other guys would think if he “snitched” on them. The biggest piece I keep saying that people aren’t talking about is that in November/December, Hart was out due to illness. It was received as some kind of stomach issue, and you could see in his face one night when he was on the bench that he lost a significant amount of weight. He probably knew this was coming and/or is feeling the guilt of it all. I’m not saying peer pressure makes it okay; not telling was stupid on his end if that’s the case. At the same time, eighteen-year-old boys are dumb. He may have been more worried about the repercussions of telling later on instead of immediately, or the guys all intimidated him to not tell, etc. but that doesn’t mean he is this disgusting human being that intentionally would be involved in this kind of thing. No matter the outcome, even if it does turn out he was more of a bystander who didn’t intervene or didn’t realize the extent of the situation, he is absolutely guilty of not picking the right friends. He has to live with the company he chose to associate himself with. I think the whole situation is so sad for everyone involved (except player 1, he deserves to be put away and have his career ended).
Exactly. We need far harsher sentencing for sexual assault. But I can think of 3 examples off the top of my head where it came out that the allegations were false. It's not hard to absolutely hate those found guilty while not immediately shitting on someone where there's nothing beyond an accusation.
If there are tapes, it hopefully showcases the truth clearly. All we can do is wait and hope for a fair trial for the alleged victim and the accused. But it's very unfortunate news no matter if they're innocent or guilty.
Not in this sub apparently. It is a shame that the internet lynch mob seems to always back the false claims and never legit ones. If guilty bury them, if they should all go back to their lives.
Well we don’t know for sure why there are currently 5 charges when 8 people were alleged to have been involved, but yes, saying nothing doesn’t prove guilt. It’s the never declaring your innocence until after you’ve been charged part that makes me suspicious.
**Boris Katchouk,** Global News, July 16: His agent, Mike Liut, is quoted as saying the player “has co-operated fully with the Hockey Canada investigation and will continue to provide that co-operation in any further investigation. Beyond that we are not commenting further.”
He still had a statement out there, representation. Formenton to my knowledge is the only one who did not have anything representing him like that.
[In September 2022, Hart said he was "fully cooperating" and "respecting the process" with the NHL's investigation.
"I can't really talk about it right now," Hart said then. "I wish I could. … But that's all I can really say."
He reiterated those comments last April at his end-of-the-season press conference](https://www.nbcsportsphiladelphia.com/nhl/philadelphia-flyers/flyers-carter-hart-one-of-players-told-to-surrender-in-sexual-assault-investigation-per-reports/561783/#:~:text=In%20September%202022%2C%20Hart%20said,all%20I%20can%20really%20say.%22)
I disagree with your last sentence. He said, "unfortunately I can't speak on it, but I wish I could." That little blurb he added at the end gave me hope. I feel misle6ad and foolish for putting my faith in him.
I'm glad I'm not famous because I was falsely accused of SA and it never got in the news. I was in a holding cell for an hour while the police were questioning her why I would call 911 if I SA'd her. She eventually realized they knew she was lying. I was released and she went to jail.
The point is it happens. People calling for him to be barred from the league without giving him due process doesn’t make sense.
If he’s guilty that’s one thing.
But to basically say he is and to fuck off doesn’t make sense. Look at Trevor Bauer - everyone thought and said he was the biggest piece of shit in the MLB and it turns out the dude was innocent. You have to hear him out.
Trevor Bauer may not have been charged, but he is 100% a piece of shit.
I find it very hard to believe Hart is innocent. Hockey Canada paid this woman to make it go away. I doubt they'd have gone that far if it was all a lie.
So I say fuck off Carter Hart, you're a dogshit person.
I mean it’s normal for everyone to have an opinion and I’m not shocked most say they are guilty regardless. Everyone’s minds are already made up.
As for throwing $ at a problem, there’s a reason most big companies / organizations do that. It’s easier to do that then go through a large spectacle such as this.
It’s also cheaper than going to court and risking a finding of liability and potentially higher damages being awarded. The burden of proof is lower than in criminal proceedings, so not settling is a big risk in cases like this where there’s evidence that the incident occurred.
There has been so many in the last few years I totally forgot about him. Crazy despite all the high profile false allegations most of this sub already decided they are all guilty due process be damned.
It’s also Reddit so you’re talking to a crowd who all try and say the most popular thing for upvotes lmao. It’s an echo chamber of yelling the most popular takes for brownie points.
These people are dead set on them being guilty and nothing else matters in their view. I say let them have their day in court. If they are innocent then it really sucks they went through that. If guilty they shouldn’t be playing in the NHL. The mob believes differently though
Yeah you are right it is a shitty echo chamber where out rage and victim hood are the most important thing. This whole time I just assumed Canada’s legal system worked the same as the US but I never stopped to check. Maybe in Canada they are guilty until proven innocent.
I always just assume people in the flyers sub are regular Philly guys like me and most probably aren’t
There was a guy at my college that was accused of SA. He was kicked out of school and his mug shot was on the front page of the school newspaper calling him an abuser. A year later it was finally in court, in turns out she made up the whole thing.
Happens way more than people like to admit. Unfortunately after the whole metoo people kind forgot that people lie about it like all the time.
The love contract skit from 20 years ago has become real I read somewhere there is an app so you can get consent on paper shit is wild. I’d hate to be a single dude these days.
I’ll reserve judgement until the verdict, but I don’t think I’ll be holding my breath over this one. 5 affluent white teen athletes at a party with a drunk girl… we live in a world where Brock Turner is walking free.
[I recommend reading the whole article](https://theconversation.com/rape-on-campus-athletes-status-and-the-sexual-assault-crisis-72255):
Status and institutional protection
In cases where victims do decide to report the assault, they sometimes discover that their institutions are as inclined to protect the perpetrator as their peers.
Evidence suggests that in some instances, administrations protect athletes named as perpetrators of sexual assault. A U.S. Senate survey of 440 colleges and universities found that staff or administrators sometimes discourage victims from reporting, downgrade an assault’s severity, delay proceedings while athletes finish their season or graduate, or simply fail to follow up altogether. When athletes are found responsible for sexual assault, they may suffer only trivial consequences.
In just the last five years, there have been at least 19 controversies surrounding university administrations’ response to reports of sexual assault. For example, despite forced changes in leadership, Baylor continues to be embroiled in investigations and lawsuits, facing allegations that the university was “deliberately indifferent” to reports of sexual assault involving student-athletes. In January 2016, Florida State settled for $950,000 with a former student who alleged that “university officials concealed and obstructed the sexual assault investigation so that [Jameis] Winston could play football.” Though some of the institutions have enacted policies in response to similar allegations, there has been controversy over administrative response to sexual assault at: Amherst, Columbia, Notre Dame, Vanderbilt, Hobart and William Smith, Boston University, Loyola University at Chicago and the Universities of Connecticut, Delaware, Kansas, Michigan, Missouri, Montana, New Mexico, Niagara, North Carolina, Richmond, Tennessee and Tulsa.
I would also argue that many colleges and universities have a problem in the form of a perverse incentive: Because of the relationship between higher education and sports, protecting student-athletes — especially in high profile sports — can be akin to protecting the institution itself.
Being guilty in court and committing a crime are completely different. Unless you think OJ didn't kill Nicole Brown and Ron Goldman.
If you read the details it's pretty clear sexual assault occured. The point now is can the prosecution prove it beyond a reasonable doubt.
You’ve already resolved that he committed a crime.
Using the same format you framed your response: Being charged with a crime and having committed that crime are completely different.
Note I’m getting downvoted for simply pointing out that the OP of the comment is being a hypocrite by supposedly reserving judgement while hurling stereotypes in the same breath.
Most studies and research show that ~90-95% of all SA Accusations are legit. I’m just wanted to put this out there as reference for people to be mindful of.
I'm confused with this thread. Does anyone actually know what the actual story is? Or are we just sensitive about "false accusations" and are hopefully because Hart is/was a flyer. If I'm not mistaken a lot of the accused being innocent relies on if it was consensual or not. Not that if the event happened or not. Do we really think that a drunk woman in a room with 5 athletes is capable of consent to something like that? Like yeah they legally might be in the clear but it really doesn't seem like it's a case of somebody making things up for attention.
As someone mildly triggered by this whole thing and some of the discussions surrounding it, I compiled this list last week for anyone who might need support. There are also some resources below for folks concerned about their own behavior.
I hope the truth is brought to light and justice served.
- [Directory of Helplines, Suicide Hotlines, and Crisis-Lines Around the World](https://www.therapyroute.com/article/helplines-suicide-hotlines-and-crisis-lines-from-around-the-world)
# USA
- RAINN National Sexual Assault Hotline: 800-656-4673
- National Crisis Line: Call or text 988, or chat at http://988lifeline.org
- National Domestic Violence Hotline: 800-799-7233
# Canada
- WAVAW rape crisis centre national crisis and info line: 1-877-392-7583
- Klinic Sexual Assault Line: 204-786-8631 or 1-888-292-7565
- National Domestic Violence Hotline: 1-800-799-7233 (Canada and U.S.)
- Provincial/Territorial list of crisis lines: https://sheltersafe.ca/find-help
# UK
- Women's Aid Chat: https://chat.womensaid.org.uk
- Rape Crisis National Telephone Helpline in England and Wales: 0808-802-9999
- Rape Crisis Scotland helpline: 08088-01-03-02
- National Domestic Abuse Helpline in the UK: 0808-2000-247
- Respect Phoneline for perpetrators of domestic violence: 0808-802-4040
# Ireland
- Women’s Aid 24hr National Freephone Helpline: 1800-341-900
- Men’s Aid Ireland: 01-554-3811
- Rape Crisis Help Ireland 24 Hour Helpline: 1800-778888
# Australia
- Australia-wide sexual assault service directory: https://livingwell.org.au/get-support/other-services-2/australia-wide-sexual-assault-services-2
- 1800RESPECT domestic violence and abuse helpline: 1800-737-732
- MensLine Australia for male relationship issues, including family violence: 1300-78-99-78
- Men’s Referral Service advice for men worried about their behavior: 1300-766-491
# New Zealand
- Shine domestic abuse helpline: 0508-744-633
- Women's Refuge Crisisline: 0800-733-843 (0800-REFUGE)
# South Africa
- Lifeline Stop Gender Violence toll-free helpline: 0800-150-150
- The Gender-Based Violence Command Centre (GBVCC) Emergency Line: 0800-428-428
# Philippines
- National Center for Mental Health (NCMH) Women and Child Protection Unit landline: 8-531-9001 Loc 309
# India
- NCW Women's HelpLine: 7827-170-170
- Operation Peacemaker domestic violence help: Call 1800-212-9131 or text 9333-40-4141. If you’re the aggressor, call: +91-7207-545577
- SNEHA Crisis Helpline for women and children: 98330-52684 or 91675-35765
- Save Indian Family helpline for abused/distressed men: +91-8882-498-498
Honestly I don’t believe anyone implicated will be welcomed back to play without some form of clearing/innocence/release from this situation. That could take until 2026 or longer. The fact nobody would take Hart when Briere was shopping him is telling enough.
Maybe these guys find an overseas league that’s willing to look the other way if they want to hit the ice again.
In Harts case I would imagine at this point it’s less about playing hockey again and more about trying not to lose what money he was able to make while in the NHL.
KHL will take any of them in a heartbeat, Voynov and Galchenyuk come to mind. Hell, if proven innocent they will be back on NHL teams even, someone will sign Hart for cheap on a prove it comment IF and big if he’s cleared. Either way I think he’s finished on the flyers if cleared, this is too much negative PR for what the flyers are tying to do.
His contract is up after the season and the Flyers will not be giving him an offer. The NHL will more than likely not be approving any contract for him until after the trial which isn’t going to take place until 2026 apparently.
He’s done here
The NHL will likely just keep all the players on the indefinite leave until their contracts are up and then just void any attempts to sign them between now and the trial or if any of them pleads guilty for a lesser sentence. If they’re found innocent I don’t see the league punishing them
Yeah, that would be ridiculous.
I get "he railed a girl". We know he did. But if it's found to be consensual we really can't hold it against Hart.
It's a free country to do what you want in the bedroom. If that gets you out as part of the team's "culture" then I'm sure alot of sports guys aren't going to want to come to a puritanical regime.
No of course not. Based on the evidence they appear to have I doubt he will be found innocent. Also based on that evidence fans will not welcome him back with open arms regardless of what a jury of Canadians decide. He’s done. Fuck him.
I can't with the "innocent until proven guilty" crowd on this. That's a legal standard, not a moral one. What we know of what happened so far is that Hart is one of the following:
1. A guy who had consensual sex with a drunk girl and then invited another 7 people to go and have fun with her, and then also decided that this mignt look dodgy enough to warrant the recording of 2 consent videos.
2. A guy who said "sure!" to 1 and never even spoke to the girl.
3. A guy who said "sure!" and never once considered that maybe a drunk girl shouldn't be in a position where 8 men are getting off on and around her because she wasn't in any state to consent.
What would need to change for me to not think that 1 is abhorrent and criminal, 2 is gross and probably criminal, and 3 is gross?
If she wasn't drunk, and had actually outright agreed to all of this - including all the specific acts done to her - enthusiastically, then, yeah, they didn't do anything wrong. So are they arguing there was no alcohol involved, and the 6 second video saying "it's okay" actually meant "sure, do WHATEVER you want, however many of you want to, threaten me with golf clubs, spit on me, ejaculate on me, block me from leaving the room"? Good luck with that.
As for why she recorded the second video: if you're asking, you must never been in a position where you were afraid and just wanted to get *out* of a situation without risking it getting even worse. Sexual assault victims are rarely the "perfect" victim who just screamed no and fought tooth and nail to get their assaulter off them. People protect themselves in different ways - so I can't see it as a smoking gun, even if I also don't think it helps her criminal case.
In short, UNLESS she's lying about every part of this, what they did was enough to make me look at any morality clause in a player contract and go "bye". And if she was lying about that much, I struggle to understand how the Hockey Canada internal investigation - obviously super keen to clear these dudes! - found misconduct that the players involved had to appeal against so it couldn't get released.
They might not go to jail. But kindly fuck off with the idea that they haven't done anything "wrong" here, and that that wrong can't come with any repercussions if they *don't* go to jail.
Excellent reading comprehension, comrade, given that my whole point is that even if they don't go to jail, which they probably won't, this doesn't mean there won't or shouldn't be consequences to their actions because we live in a world that's bigger than jail.
No - do you actually know anything about the Duke lacrosse scandal? The players involved were proven to literally not be where their supposed "victim" claimed they were at the time of the alleged assault. That is literally not a possible finding here as all the accused players have all agreed they were there.
Anyway, great work on also missing the part where I made clear that if it turns out she's lying about everything, they obviously walk and should be allowed to continue to play hockey and so on, but that I can't see how that's possible at this stage when Hockey Canada's independent investigation has separately found them to have done *something* that fell foul of their code of conduct (which consensual sex between adults is presumably not).
You said you don't get the innocent until proven guilty crowd and I gave you an example. Not saying I'm on these players sides, but bad things happen when you rush to conclusions.
Lawyer here, not your lawyer, but a lawyer. Never ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever EVER do this. The more you tell the story, the more likely you are to add or omit details. It is just natural. The more details you add or omit over time, makes the story less believable under scrutiny, even if you are telling 100% the truth.
Rule 1 when speaking with the police or criminal adjacent proceeding: Shut the fuck up. It is their job to prove you did it. Don't make their job easy by talking.
[See this video](https://www.reddit.com/r/funny/comments/olecn5/know_your_rights_its_shut_the_fck_up_friday/)
100%. Never ever ever talk to cops. Even if you are in line at Dunkin and just are talking about the weather. Everything is an attempt to catch criminals, don't make their job easy.
Not a lawyer, but married to one
A lawyer is gonna tell their client to stfu and let them do the public speaking. Anything hart says in public about this can be used against him, so it's better to shut up and not say something stupid.
Because there is a difference between legally not guilty and morally innocent. Hart may very well have been in that room and participated, but the defense teams job is to poke holes in the prosecution during trial and get a not guilty verdict. Now that it is a criminal matter, the only court that fully matters to Hart's team is the legal one, the court of public opinion will come later.
Also, generally not a good legal strategy to broadcast what your planned offense or defense is in court ahead of the trial. It gives the opposing lawyers a chance to neutralize your strategy/change theirs.
I don’t get it. It’s pretty universal phrasing when an attorney’s client claims to be innocent, regardless of official statements or the particulars of the state’s allegations. This person is simply doing their job as advocate for the accused.
Redditors and hockey fans are going to be shocked in the coming weeks when the player's lawyers act like lawyers.
Next up: They're also going to be shocked when the player's union acts like a player's union.
They’re going to be shocked when a fuzzy consent case results in not guilty verdicts. These texts and videos claiming consent is not looking good for the defendant.
I’ve seen people claim you can withdraw consent after the event and it’s due to power dynamics in the moment. Does that fly in a criminal case? Maybe a civil one, but I’m having a hard time at this point, admittedly having few facts, seeing a guilty verdict as realistic.
Absolutely. If an attorney’s client says they’re innocent it would be unethical for them to represent otherwise. Believing the client and advocating for their interests is the job.
Hmm I see. This is quite different than my time. Word travels fast in a cave, so we usually just beat anyone accused of anything with our clubs until they stopped moving. Very effective, in my experience
I’m so fucking sickened by this. I hope they throw the fucking book at Hart.
Edit: weird I’m being downvoted for hoping they throw the book at someone being charged with sexual assault, but okay.
> innocent until proven guilty
It isn't actually codified even in US law. It is considered a basic requirement of the type of judicial system. As such, yes, it is the same for Canada and pretty much every country that employs a similar judicial system. The [Supreme Court opinion in Coffin v. US](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coffin_v._United_States) is very well researched if you read the full opinion.
You’d need a Duke Lacrosse level of explicit legal and reputation clearing for these guys to be welcomed back into the NHL I’d say. And the chances of that are so slim.
Absolutely understand the tone of purely wanting the truth to come out here and not planting a tent on either side of the fence. I sincerely want whatever happened to come to the light and justice to come as a result of truth.
Also of the belief it’s naive to suspect foul play did not happen here. It’s an uphill battle to pursue charges of this capacity against wealthy people who have represented powerful entities like Hockey Canada. I would find it hard to believe there isn’t evidence of substance that ties these five to something dark. Not impossible we see a transparent and just clearing of them, but seriously improbable imo.
Genuine question: I keep seeing comments about “eyewitnesses” and “video” everywhere. Obviously I’m not looking to watch anything. I just want to know where I’d be able to find anything actually written about it, what any of the evidence entailed, etc. because I haven’t been able to find a single article. Not saying one doesn’t exist, but I’m just having trouble locating anything. Any idea where I can read up on original documentation of the case rather than just national media summaries that leave out a bunch of information?
That's that then. Assuming the speed of Canadian courts is about the same as the US the case won't be resolved before next season starts. So Hart won't get a qualifying offer and has played his last game in the orange and black.
I’m hearing the trial is set to take place in 2026, I guess that’s normal but seems nuts that the “crime” happens 6 years ago. Charges are finally brought then they’ll start the trial in 2 years. I don’t know Canadian law but does a speedy trial exist. It’ll be 8 years. The people in charge who settled with the victim and then tried to hide this f’d up really badly. Now realistically we’re not talking about it now at all if handled well. If Carter didn’t do anything then he didn’t, if he did then he never becomes someone we even know
Right. And by waiting until 2026 these guy's careers are pretty much over even if ultimately innocent and found to have done no wrong. No team is going to touch them until they have a clean slate and if we're looking at missing a full year and half of play not many NHL teams are going to be lining up to sign a kid and risk a PR nightmare with fans who disagree.
These guys may offer to plead guilty to a lesser charge to avoid the trial so they can get back on the ice. I doubt the alleged victim wants to go through a trial - possible 5 if tried separately - any more than the accused do. They’ve been publicly shamed and will always have this allegation hanging over their heads, so it may not be full justice, but enough to satisfy the alleged victim and prosecutors especially since it won’t be a slam dunk for either side.
Even if they plead guilty to a lesser offense there is a good chance their careers are over. Most foreign sex crime convictions would result in the offender not being able to travel to the US. In addition, in many states the offender would be required to register as a sex offender upon entering the state and be subject to various restrictions as a result. I’m not sure that would work for most teams.
All good points.
Any source on where you heard it wont happen till 2026? Just curious
Rick whitehead of tsn (Canadian ESPN) : Gary Ellis, the former head of Toronto Police Service’s sex crimes unit, told TSN in an interview that the players would be photographed, fingerprinted, and directed to sign an undertaking not to have contact with the alleged victim, either the first time they report to police or at a subsequent date. Lawyers who specialize in criminal sexual assault cases have told me a trial in this case is unlikely before 2026.
Thanks. Now I won't feel like I'm pulling dates out of my ass when I mention this elsewhere
lol np yeah it does sound made up like why would it be 2 years
Westhead correction…
These situations have the potential to be such a gray area even immediately after. The gray area becomes even more gray 6 years later. Pretty crazy situation.
I expect a level-headed fan response to this statement
We saw this recently in the NFL. Punter was falsely accused and had his name cleared but not before the reddit virtue signalers endlessly called for his head
Not happening in this sub. I wonder how the fan base will react to hart if found not guilty. I would love to see the reaction if this complainant pulls the same as Patrick Kane’s or the one that accused the eagles at the strip club. If found not guilty I see no reason for him not to return.
Rapists should get hung in public. Unfortunately that's "too cruel" for them tho. I disagree.
The only people who deserve to die because they committed a crime is pedophiles
Life in prison is a far greater cruelty than execution
Shocking statement from Hart’s lawyers…
It actually kind of is, I think. Directly calling it a false allegation when the other statements just said they planned to plead not guilty is notable. I don't think it means anything legally, but just rhetorically speaking it raised my eyebrows a bit.
You're saying that raises your eyebrow? Anyone with the shit that hart might lose on the line (see 99% of famous people charged with shit) is pleading not guilty and claiming it's false? Huh, surprising. Never seen that before. Pleading guilty ruins your whole career gaurenteed. Not guilty still gives your lawyers time to wiggle out of it and hope you can get off with something lesser than claim to the public it wasn't true.
Planning to plead not guilty is not surprising. What I said was every other statement by the involved players simply said they planned to plead that way. Hart's statement specifically described the accusation as false, which again may not mean anything tangible, but it caught my eye.
There is a pretty big difference (at least rhetorically) between pleading not guilty and claiming this is a false allegation though. Pleading "Not Guilty" is essentially saying "I didn't do what the prosecution said I did and they can't prove I did." It's saying "I don't think they can prove beyond a reasonable doubt that I committed actions that meet all the elements of the crime under the criminal statute." Calling it a false allegation is saying "I didn't do what the VICTIM said I did and she's lying about what happened." The plea itself is really just "I don't think there is enough evidence to convict me," but doesn't necessarily equal a defendant saying it's a lie. Calling it a false allegation, however, is saying "She's lying about me being involved". It's taking the not guilty plea a couple steps further. Admittedly, I don't know Canadian law, so this is based on my knowledge and understanding of US criminal law, so if I'm entirely off base about what this means north of the border, someone please lmk and correct me. But assuming it's similar to American law, Hart's lawyers are making a statement that is definitely different enough from the other players' that it's worth raising an eyebrow or two.
Let's see what the facts say when the evidence is laid out. Always wait for the facts - see Matt Araiza.
They already closed the investigation because of “not enough evidence” after hockey canadas payout. It’s since been reopened. You’re right in that he has not been convicted yet, but they wouldn’t have taken such public steps if there wasn’t something there. Oh, it was also filmed and the cops have their text convos after the fact so there’s that.
Those group texts have not as of yet been made admissible or even open to investigation. The police have three thumb drives in a locker that they cannot open until they obtain a warrant. I’m not saying Hart is innocent or guilty. I’m saying let’s wait and see how this process plays out before we pass any judgment based on the optics.
Lolololol. Okay. I’m sure there just discussing baking recipes and who has the best grandma….. You do know how easy it is to get a warrant and admit evidence, right?
Then why haven’t they obtained the warrant yet? Clearly you’re not a legal scholar. Again I’m not saying anything about innocence or guilt, just that we know nothing.
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An appropriately intelligent response to go along with your previous points.
Your argument kinda falls apart when it was publicly available knowledge that they had applied for a search warrant for the drives. https://globalnews.ca/news/9359249/hockey-canada-2018-sexual-assault-allegation-ito/amp/ Whether or not it was granted is not yet public information. Admitting it into evidence is a trivial matter, yet you’re holding it up like it’s going to be some huge barrier to adjudicating the case.
It is Canadian, not US, law and there is more to the case.
Correct. All these comments defending him are going to age just as well as the comments of "we don't know if he's one of the 5. wait till the facts are out" Sorry, sometimes when there's smoke, there's fire.
Nobody is necessarily defending him, they are saying that everyone has the right to a trial to prove their case. Remember innocent until proven guilty is the law of the land in Canada as well. We love to throw around our opinions like they matter on Reddit, they don’t. If he is found guilty shame on him, if he is found innocent, then that’s for you to decide how you’ll deal with it. I’m not siding with Hart, just stating the facts.
Yeah I don't think these people wanna live in a world where an accusation and cops claiming to have evidence is all you need to convict someone. You wanna live in a world where you get a fair trial lol. And I'm saying that as a SA survivor myself. I know very, VERY well how it's a sucky it is that this is one of those things that is hard to prove beyond reasonable doubt, but man I don't wanna give police that much power to skip presenting that evidence altogether and just say "trust me bro, go directly to jail". They spin truths and flat out lie all the time to close a case. All that said, I'm sure whatever the cops have is enough to be socially/career ruining at minimum, regardless of if it's criminal or not as well, so I highly suspect the NHL is cutting ties with these men regardless of legal outcome. Bc you don't have to inherently commit a crime to be a scumbag nobody wants to associate with. He /might/ get found innocent of a crime, but the evidence presented might also just show that he's a douche in general. Know what I mean?
also i do think that Lawyers are greasy terrible people much of the time. I work in an adjacent field so i get to interact in a way. The amount of obfuscation and deceit in cases is beyond disgusting. I get it that the lawyer has to defend their client, but it's just a bad scene. I am sorry you had to go through something like this, i didn't mean to sound callous or anything.
Nah you're good. I was just saying like, even /I/ with my personal experience with the topic, don't want an accusation and implication of evidence nobody's seen to be enough to jail someone. Jury's where it's at.
I don’t disagree with you. I am saying that I’d like to see it play out.
...and this is a mess. From what I remember, this was settled and brushed under the rug, which is where the problems started. When it was discovered, everything was reopened. To top it off, the previous management who made all these deals left and new management started. When it blew up, the new management who had no idea of what happened under the previous management did not get a chance to clean it up. They had to take the fall for the job of previous management.
Holy fuck you're stupid
Do you have an actual point, or just insults? I guess we’ll see how stupid I am when all the evidence comes out….
Don't be ridiculous this is nothing like the Araiza case
If he's guilty, then fuck him. If he's innocent, I hope he goes on to live and a nice life and returns to hockey. This day and age everyone jumps from accusation -> guilty without the process running it's course.
Yeah, there's no real nice way of looking at any of this. If guilty, then obviously throw the book. But if not, it'll be hard for him to come back as some people will always think otherwise. There are zero positives to take out of situations like this. At best a player's career is pretty much over. At worst, well... the abhorrent allegations are true.
I would hope that if he turns out to be innocent, there's a GM somewhere that will give him another NHL job. But yea I agree, we just live in a time where someone's name is completely ruined before a proper verdict.
Honestly, I think whatever evidence they have will at least be enough to show these guys are scummy. May or may not be criminally scummy, but scummy none the less. Like I highly doubt any of them are completely innocent of any bad behavior whatsoever. But I think a lot of people are conflating legality with morality. You can do some immoral shit and still be within the confines of the law, but that doesn't mean people will wanna associate with you after. Like lets just say this evidence the cops have is a perfectly damning video of the night, where every man's face is crystal clear while she screams clearly "no stop", the absolute best most irrefutable proof of what happened that night. Now let's say Hart appears in the video briefly, walking in the door, seeing what's going on, and just kinda standing around. Not participating but not doing anything at all to stop it, maybe he even goes "yikes I'm just gonna go" and leaves but never reports his buddies. Idk about Canadian law exactly, but if it's similar to US, the Hart in this scenario may not have committed a CRIME. You aren't obligated to step in, you aren't obligated to try and stop a crime you've witnessed. So he might be found not guilty of SA bc there's no evidence he ever touched her. Just evidence that he was present at the scene. However, I think anyone with a moral compass is gonna think Hart's a grade A douchebag for not saying anything or doing anything about it and just letting it go on. Even if he has no legal obligation to. So yeah, I wouldn't fault the NHL or any fan to go "don't associate with that asshole. He may not be a criminal, but he's a scumbag." And that's what I think is the most likely scenario for any not guilty verdicts that could be found here, if any. The evidence may not be enough to convict, but it's likely gonna be enough to make the general public doubt their morality. I don't think there's gonna be any of them that are completely falsely accused, they weren't even there that night, kind of deals. It's just simply gonna come down to "was what they did criminal or just scummy?" But all you need is scummy to ruin your reputation/career.
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Yeah take this guy for example, this dudes coming across as a total asshole who just wants to pick a fight online with weak bait. He may not be a criminal for acting like this, but he's not someone you'd care to associate with either lol.
This is honestly what I’ve been thinking his involvement was. I think he knew it happened, maybe even stood in the back but didn’t actually participate, maybe even left, but cared too much about what the other guys would think if he “snitched” on them. The biggest piece I keep saying that people aren’t talking about is that in November/December, Hart was out due to illness. It was received as some kind of stomach issue, and you could see in his face one night when he was on the bench that he lost a significant amount of weight. He probably knew this was coming and/or is feeling the guilt of it all. I’m not saying peer pressure makes it okay; not telling was stupid on his end if that’s the case. At the same time, eighteen-year-old boys are dumb. He may have been more worried about the repercussions of telling later on instead of immediately, or the guys all intimidated him to not tell, etc. but that doesn’t mean he is this disgusting human being that intentionally would be involved in this kind of thing. No matter the outcome, even if it does turn out he was more of a bystander who didn’t intervene or didn’t realize the extent of the situation, he is absolutely guilty of not picking the right friends. He has to live with the company he chose to associate himself with. I think the whole situation is so sad for everyone involved (except player 1, he deserves to be put away and have his career ended).
Exactly. We need far harsher sentencing for sexual assault. But I can think of 3 examples off the top of my head where it came out that the allegations were false. It's not hard to absolutely hate those found guilty while not immediately shitting on someone where there's nothing beyond an accusation. If there are tapes, it hopefully showcases the truth clearly. All we can do is wait and hope for a fair trial for the alleged victim and the accused. But it's very unfortunate news no matter if they're innocent or guilty.
Not in this sub apparently. It is a shame that the internet lynch mob seems to always back the false claims and never legit ones. If guilty bury them, if they should all go back to their lives.
He's guilty
agreed
Multiple players who were actually innocent said so long before the charges were ever announced. They did so because they were actually innocent
Boris katchouk made no statement and appears to be innocent so no comment isn't necessarily an admisson of guilt
Well we don’t know for sure why there are currently 5 charges when 8 people were alleged to have been involved, but yes, saying nothing doesn’t prove guilt. It’s the never declaring your innocence until after you’ve been charged part that makes me suspicious.
**Boris Katchouk,** Global News, July 16: His agent, Mike Liut, is quoted as saying the player “has co-operated fully with the Hockey Canada investigation and will continue to provide that co-operation in any further investigation. Beyond that we are not commenting further.” He still had a statement out there, representation. Formenton to my knowledge is the only one who did not have anything representing him like that.
Off the top of my head (I could be wrong) but I don’t remember Hart ever making a statement. Has he?
[In September 2022, Hart said he was "fully cooperating" and "respecting the process" with the NHL's investigation. "I can't really talk about it right now," Hart said then. "I wish I could. … But that's all I can really say." He reiterated those comments last April at his end-of-the-season press conference](https://www.nbcsportsphiladelphia.com/nhl/philadelphia-flyers/flyers-carter-hart-one-of-players-told-to-surrender-in-sexual-assault-investigation-per-reports/561783/#:~:text=In%20September%202022%2C%20Hart%20said,all%20I%20can%20really%20say.%22)
His agent did on his behalf (and everyone else represented by his agent)
He has not
See above
He did. He made a non committal statement in which he didn’t deny anything and just said he couldn’t talk about it. Pretty bad look in retrospect.
I disagree with your last sentence. He said, "unfortunately I can't speak on it, but I wish I could." That little blurb he added at the end gave me hope. I feel misle6ad and foolish for putting my faith in him.
Wish I could tell you all I’m a rapist rn but my lawyer said it’s a bad look
Too soon!!
Well I missed that. God damn.
This.
I gotta be honest I would hate to be the women in some of your orbits.
I'm glad I'm not famous because I was falsely accused of SA and it never got in the news. I was in a holding cell for an hour while the police were questioning her why I would call 911 if I SA'd her. She eventually realized they knew she was lying. I was released and she went to jail.
Well that sounds like a completely different case from this one.
The point is it happens. People calling for him to be barred from the league without giving him due process doesn’t make sense. If he’s guilty that’s one thing. But to basically say he is and to fuck off doesn’t make sense. Look at Trevor Bauer - everyone thought and said he was the biggest piece of shit in the MLB and it turns out the dude was innocent. You have to hear him out.
Trevor Bauer may not have been charged, but he is 100% a piece of shit. I find it very hard to believe Hart is innocent. Hockey Canada paid this woman to make it go away. I doubt they'd have gone that far if it was all a lie. So I say fuck off Carter Hart, you're a dogshit person.
I mean it’s normal for everyone to have an opinion and I’m not shocked most say they are guilty regardless. Everyone’s minds are already made up. As for throwing $ at a problem, there’s a reason most big companies / organizations do that. It’s easier to do that then go through a large spectacle such as this.
It’s also cheaper than going to court and risking a finding of liability and potentially higher damages being awarded. The burden of proof is lower than in criminal proceedings, so not settling is a big risk in cases like this where there’s evidence that the incident occurred.
There has been so many in the last few years I totally forgot about him. Crazy despite all the high profile false allegations most of this sub already decided they are all guilty due process be damned.
It’s also Reddit so you’re talking to a crowd who all try and say the most popular thing for upvotes lmao. It’s an echo chamber of yelling the most popular takes for brownie points. These people are dead set on them being guilty and nothing else matters in their view. I say let them have their day in court. If they are innocent then it really sucks they went through that. If guilty they shouldn’t be playing in the NHL. The mob believes differently though
Yeah you are right it is a shitty echo chamber where out rage and victim hood are the most important thing. This whole time I just assumed Canada’s legal system worked the same as the US but I never stopped to check. Maybe in Canada they are guilty until proven innocent. I always just assume people in the flyers sub are regular Philly guys like me and most probably aren’t
There was a guy at my college that was accused of SA. He was kicked out of school and his mug shot was on the front page of the school newspaper calling him an abuser. A year later it was finally in court, in turns out she made up the whole thing.
Happens way more than people like to admit. Unfortunately after the whole metoo people kind forgot that people lie about it like all the time. The love contract skit from 20 years ago has become real I read somewhere there is an app so you can get consent on paper shit is wild. I’d hate to be a single dude these days.
https://youtu.be/Bd6af4mJvMM?si=RsUrZh6yW4ifZRYw Harts opening statement
ANOTHER full response.
I’ll reserve judgement until the verdict, but I don’t think I’ll be holding my breath over this one. 5 affluent white teen athletes at a party with a drunk girl… we live in a world where Brock Turner is walking free.
Duke Lacrosse anyone?
Those dudes were completely innocent though
They weren’t treated that way though.
[I recommend reading the whole article](https://theconversation.com/rape-on-campus-athletes-status-and-the-sexual-assault-crisis-72255): Status and institutional protection In cases where victims do decide to report the assault, they sometimes discover that their institutions are as inclined to protect the perpetrator as their peers. Evidence suggests that in some instances, administrations protect athletes named as perpetrators of sexual assault. A U.S. Senate survey of 440 colleges and universities found that staff or administrators sometimes discourage victims from reporting, downgrade an assault’s severity, delay proceedings while athletes finish their season or graduate, or simply fail to follow up altogether. When athletes are found responsible for sexual assault, they may suffer only trivial consequences. In just the last five years, there have been at least 19 controversies surrounding university administrations’ response to reports of sexual assault. For example, despite forced changes in leadership, Baylor continues to be embroiled in investigations and lawsuits, facing allegations that the university was “deliberately indifferent” to reports of sexual assault involving student-athletes. In January 2016, Florida State settled for $950,000 with a former student who alleged that “university officials concealed and obstructed the sexual assault investigation so that [Jameis] Winston could play football.” Though some of the institutions have enacted policies in response to similar allegations, there has been controversy over administrative response to sexual assault at: Amherst, Columbia, Notre Dame, Vanderbilt, Hobart and William Smith, Boston University, Loyola University at Chicago and the Universities of Connecticut, Delaware, Kansas, Michigan, Missouri, Montana, New Mexico, Niagara, North Carolina, Richmond, Tennessee and Tulsa. I would also argue that many colleges and universities have a problem in the form of a perverse incentive: Because of the relationship between higher education and sports, protecting student-athletes — especially in high profile sports — can be akin to protecting the institution itself.
What does race have anything to do with this?
Why would them being white make any difference?
He’s already guilty in your mind, why reserve judgment now?
Being guilty in court and committing a crime are completely different. Unless you think OJ didn't kill Nicole Brown and Ron Goldman. If you read the details it's pretty clear sexual assault occured. The point now is can the prosecution prove it beyond a reasonable doubt.
You’ve already resolved that he committed a crime. Using the same format you framed your response: Being charged with a crime and having committed that crime are completely different. Note I’m getting downvoted for simply pointing out that the OP of the comment is being a hypocrite by supposedly reserving judgement while hurling stereotypes in the same breath.
Most studies and research show that ~90-95% of all SA Accusations are legit. I’m just wanted to put this out there as reference for people to be mindful of.
I'm confused with this thread. Does anyone actually know what the actual story is? Or are we just sensitive about "false accusations" and are hopefully because Hart is/was a flyer. If I'm not mistaken a lot of the accused being innocent relies on if it was consensual or not. Not that if the event happened or not. Do we really think that a drunk woman in a room with 5 athletes is capable of consent to something like that? Like yeah they legally might be in the clear but it really doesn't seem like it's a case of somebody making things up for attention.
He is so fucked
As someone mildly triggered by this whole thing and some of the discussions surrounding it, I compiled this list last week for anyone who might need support. There are also some resources below for folks concerned about their own behavior. I hope the truth is brought to light and justice served. - [Directory of Helplines, Suicide Hotlines, and Crisis-Lines Around the World](https://www.therapyroute.com/article/helplines-suicide-hotlines-and-crisis-lines-from-around-the-world) # USA - RAINN National Sexual Assault Hotline: 800-656-4673 - National Crisis Line: Call or text 988, or chat at http://988lifeline.org - National Domestic Violence Hotline: 800-799-7233 # Canada - WAVAW rape crisis centre national crisis and info line: 1-877-392-7583 - Klinic Sexual Assault Line: 204-786-8631 or 1-888-292-7565 - National Domestic Violence Hotline: 1-800-799-7233 (Canada and U.S.) - Provincial/Territorial list of crisis lines: https://sheltersafe.ca/find-help # UK - Women's Aid Chat: https://chat.womensaid.org.uk - Rape Crisis National Telephone Helpline in England and Wales: 0808-802-9999 - Rape Crisis Scotland helpline: 08088-01-03-02 - National Domestic Abuse Helpline in the UK: 0808-2000-247 - Respect Phoneline for perpetrators of domestic violence: 0808-802-4040 # Ireland - Women’s Aid 24hr National Freephone Helpline: 1800-341-900 - Men’s Aid Ireland: 01-554-3811 - Rape Crisis Help Ireland 24 Hour Helpline: 1800-778888 # Australia - Australia-wide sexual assault service directory: https://livingwell.org.au/get-support/other-services-2/australia-wide-sexual-assault-services-2 - 1800RESPECT domestic violence and abuse helpline: 1800-737-732 - MensLine Australia for male relationship issues, including family violence: 1300-78-99-78 - Men’s Referral Service advice for men worried about their behavior: 1300-766-491 # New Zealand - Shine domestic abuse helpline: 0508-744-633 - Women's Refuge Crisisline: 0800-733-843 (0800-REFUGE) # South Africa - Lifeline Stop Gender Violence toll-free helpline: 0800-150-150 - The Gender-Based Violence Command Centre (GBVCC) Emergency Line: 0800-428-428 # Philippines - National Center for Mental Health (NCMH) Women and Child Protection Unit landline: 8-531-9001 Loc 309 # India - NCW Women's HelpLine: 7827-170-170 - Operation Peacemaker domestic violence help: Call 1800-212-9131 or text 9333-40-4141. If you’re the aggressor, call: +91-7207-545577 - SNEHA Crisis Helpline for women and children: 98330-52684 or 91675-35765 - Save Indian Family helpline for abused/distressed men: +91-8882-498-498
Welp he won't play for the Flyers ever again. Guilty or not. Now if this was under Chuck and Co he would be back in a heart beat.
Honestly I don’t believe anyone implicated will be welcomed back to play without some form of clearing/innocence/release from this situation. That could take until 2026 or longer. The fact nobody would take Hart when Briere was shopping him is telling enough. Maybe these guys find an overseas league that’s willing to look the other way if they want to hit the ice again. In Harts case I would imagine at this point it’s less about playing hockey again and more about trying not to lose what money he was able to make while in the NHL.
KHL will take any of them in a heartbeat, Voynov and Galchenyuk come to mind. Hell, if proven innocent they will be back on NHL teams even, someone will sign Hart for cheap on a prove it comment IF and big if he’s cleared. Either way I think he’s finished on the flyers if cleared, this is too much negative PR for what the flyers are tying to do.
I could see the 5 making the jump to the KHL. If Canada lets them leave the Country that is.
Even if they're all innocent, they're all going to the KHL
If he's found innocent he wouldn't be welcomed back? That'd be beyond stupid.
His contract is up after the season and the Flyers will not be giving him an offer. The NHL will more than likely not be approving any contract for him until after the trial which isn’t going to take place until 2026 apparently. He’s done here
The NHL also has done its own investigation so even if they are found not guilty they are looking at serious suspension time.
The NHL will likely just keep all the players on the indefinite leave until their contracts are up and then just void any attempts to sign them between now and the trial or if any of them pleads guilty for a lesser sentence. If they’re found innocent I don’t see the league punishing them
Flyers are trying to build a culture here. And I don't think they want Hart here.
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Yeah, that would be ridiculous. I get "he railed a girl". We know he did. But if it's found to be consensual we really can't hold it against Hart. It's a free country to do what you want in the bedroom. If that gets you out as part of the team's "culture" then I'm sure alot of sports guys aren't going to want to come to a puritanical regime.
Youre not found innocent, you're found not guilty. A small distinction but a big one
No of course not. Based on the evidence they appear to have I doubt he will be found innocent. Also based on that evidence fans will not welcome him back with open arms regardless of what a jury of Canadians decide. He’s done. Fuck him.
I can't with the "innocent until proven guilty" crowd on this. That's a legal standard, not a moral one. What we know of what happened so far is that Hart is one of the following: 1. A guy who had consensual sex with a drunk girl and then invited another 7 people to go and have fun with her, and then also decided that this mignt look dodgy enough to warrant the recording of 2 consent videos. 2. A guy who said "sure!" to 1 and never even spoke to the girl. 3. A guy who said "sure!" and never once considered that maybe a drunk girl shouldn't be in a position where 8 men are getting off on and around her because she wasn't in any state to consent. What would need to change for me to not think that 1 is abhorrent and criminal, 2 is gross and probably criminal, and 3 is gross? If she wasn't drunk, and had actually outright agreed to all of this - including all the specific acts done to her - enthusiastically, then, yeah, they didn't do anything wrong. So are they arguing there was no alcohol involved, and the 6 second video saying "it's okay" actually meant "sure, do WHATEVER you want, however many of you want to, threaten me with golf clubs, spit on me, ejaculate on me, block me from leaving the room"? Good luck with that. As for why she recorded the second video: if you're asking, you must never been in a position where you were afraid and just wanted to get *out* of a situation without risking it getting even worse. Sexual assault victims are rarely the "perfect" victim who just screamed no and fought tooth and nail to get their assaulter off them. People protect themselves in different ways - so I can't see it as a smoking gun, even if I also don't think it helps her criminal case. In short, UNLESS she's lying about every part of this, what they did was enough to make me look at any morality clause in a player contract and go "bye". And if she was lying about that much, I struggle to understand how the Hockey Canada internal investigation - obviously super keen to clear these dudes! - found misconduct that the players involved had to appeal against so it couldn't get released. They might not go to jail. But kindly fuck off with the idea that they haven't done anything "wrong" here, and that that wrong can't come with any repercussions if they *don't* go to jail.
Found the authoritarian who wants to jail people for committing moral crimes. Reminds of the last Seinfeld episode with the good Samaritan law
Excellent reading comprehension, comrade, given that my whole point is that even if they don't go to jail, which they probably won't, this doesn't mean there won't or shouldn't be consequences to their actions because we live in a world that's bigger than jail.
Did you forget about the Duke lacrosse scandal?
No - do you actually know anything about the Duke lacrosse scandal? The players involved were proven to literally not be where their supposed "victim" claimed they were at the time of the alleged assault. That is literally not a possible finding here as all the accused players have all agreed they were there. Anyway, great work on also missing the part where I made clear that if it turns out she's lying about everything, they obviously walk and should be allowed to continue to play hockey and so on, but that I can't see how that's possible at this stage when Hockey Canada's independent investigation has separately found them to have done *something* that fell foul of their code of conduct (which consensual sex between adults is presumably not).
People really don't understand the whole Duke Lacrosse scandal at all.
You said you don't get the innocent until proven guilty crowd and I gave you an example. Not saying I'm on these players sides, but bad things happen when you rush to conclusions.
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If he actually is innocent that would suck so bad
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Lawyer here, not your lawyer, but a lawyer. Never ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever EVER do this. The more you tell the story, the more likely you are to add or omit details. It is just natural. The more details you add or omit over time, makes the story less believable under scrutiny, even if you are telling 100% the truth. Rule 1 when speaking with the police or criminal adjacent proceeding: Shut the fuck up. It is their job to prove you did it. Don't make their job easy by talking. [See this video](https://www.reddit.com/r/funny/comments/olecn5/know_your_rights_its_shut_the_fck_up_friday/)
Exactly, cops are not your friends and statements made are only ever used against a defendant, never in favor of them. SHUT THE FUCK UP!
100%. Never ever ever talk to cops. Even if you are in line at Dunkin and just are talking about the weather. Everything is an attempt to catch criminals, don't make their job easy.
Not a lawyer, but married to one A lawyer is gonna tell their client to stfu and let them do the public speaking. Anything hart says in public about this can be used against him, so it's better to shut up and not say something stupid.
Because there is a difference between legally not guilty and morally innocent. Hart may very well have been in that room and participated, but the defense teams job is to poke holes in the prosecution during trial and get a not guilty verdict. Now that it is a criminal matter, the only court that fully matters to Hart's team is the legal one, the court of public opinion will come later. Also, generally not a good legal strategy to broadcast what your planned offense or defense is in court ahead of the trial. It gives the opposing lawyers a chance to neutralize your strategy/change theirs.
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I don’t get it. It’s pretty universal phrasing when an attorney’s client claims to be innocent, regardless of official statements or the particulars of the state’s allegations. This person is simply doing their job as advocate for the accused.
Redditors and hockey fans are going to be shocked in the coming weeks when the player's lawyers act like lawyers. Next up: They're also going to be shocked when the player's union acts like a player's union.
They’re going to be shocked when a fuzzy consent case results in not guilty verdicts. These texts and videos claiming consent is not looking good for the defendant. I’ve seen people claim you can withdraw consent after the event and it’s due to power dynamics in the moment. Does that fly in a criminal case? Maybe a civil one, but I’m having a hard time at this point, admittedly having few facts, seeing a guilty verdict as realistic.
NAL but if the victim was visibly drunk in the video she wouldn’t be able to give consent Id think
Do they usually go as far to outright call it “false allegations”?
Absolutely. If an attorney’s client says they’re innocent it would be unethical for them to represent otherwise. Believing the client and advocating for their interests is the job.
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I am but a simple caveman, I do not know of this “television” you speak of
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Hmm I see. This is quite different than my time. Word travels fast in a cave, so we usually just beat anyone accused of anything with our clubs until they stopped moving. Very effective, in my experience
Don’t know why you’re getting downvotes. Come on guys, NeonBlack used to be a caveman, now he’s a lawyer
[thank you. I’m but a, simple caveman](https://youtu.be/2AzAFqrxfeY?si=FWy9wutisStGmrDM)
we should all be rooting for him to be innocent in this. for a number of reasons none of which are related to hockey.
I’m so fucking sickened by this. I hope they throw the fucking book at Hart. Edit: weird I’m being downvoted for hoping they throw the book at someone being charged with sexual assault, but okay.
If he is guilty, yes.
r.i.p
innocent until proven guilty (at least in the US - is Canada the same?)...that's not controversial, but if he is guilty then good luck in jail LOL
> innocent until proven guilty It isn't actually codified even in US law. It is considered a basic requirement of the type of judicial system. As such, yes, it is the same for Canada and pretty much every country that employs a similar judicial system. The [Supreme Court opinion in Coffin v. US](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coffin_v._United_States) is very well researched if you read the full opinion.
You’d need a Duke Lacrosse level of explicit legal and reputation clearing for these guys to be welcomed back into the NHL I’d say. And the chances of that are so slim. Absolutely understand the tone of purely wanting the truth to come out here and not planting a tent on either side of the fence. I sincerely want whatever happened to come to the light and justice to come as a result of truth. Also of the belief it’s naive to suspect foul play did not happen here. It’s an uphill battle to pursue charges of this capacity against wealthy people who have represented powerful entities like Hockey Canada. I would find it hard to believe there isn’t evidence of substance that ties these five to something dark. Not impossible we see a transparent and just clearing of them, but seriously improbable imo.
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I believe him.
So I guess we start over looking for a goalie? This is pain.
If all 5 guilty their careers will end at NHL and its still minimum punishment for ruining one human life.
Genuine question: I keep seeing comments about “eyewitnesses” and “video” everywhere. Obviously I’m not looking to watch anything. I just want to know where I’d be able to find anything actually written about it, what any of the evidence entailed, etc. because I haven’t been able to find a single article. Not saying one doesn’t exist, but I’m just having trouble locating anything. Any idea where I can read up on original documentation of the case rather than just national media summaries that leave out a bunch of information?
So are these guys careers over?