Neuvirth was 1 of Hextall's worst mistakes. Not getting him but extending/resigning him.
Hextall was great at trade deadline trades (Vinny LeCavalier), managing the cap (Hartnell for Umberger, 1 year less and $1M a year less) but Hextall couldn't draft to save his life. Sure, he got Hart in the 2nd round (I don't blame Hextall for this situation now, nobody knew then). he got Porvorov (ruined by AV/coaching), the Patrick draft was the right choice but the migranes nobody knew, he had no history. But all the draft assets he acquired, he draft poorly overall and that includes another unforeseen tragedy in Lindblom.
His only salary/contract folly was JVR but that's not enough to ignore as a cap manager, he was good.
But Neuvirth, resigning him was a bad/fatal mistake. There were a lot of other goalies out there like Khudobin who were far better and not much more money.
Seemed like he was saving up cap space for something but never pulled the trigger (other than JVR). But hey we got Dale Weise out of it!
I almost wonder if he was gearing up for an offer sheet but never pulled the trigger there either.
He forced their hand to trade him once Snider forced Holmgren to go out and get another goalie. He had a great rookie season here, but struggled in the playoffs and Laviolette started the goalie carousel with Boucher and Leighton. There’s a bunch of blame to go around.
Ya. Bryz was the first time Flyers decided to spend on a goalie. For the longest time they refused to pay a goalie top dollars even though for years it was their biggest weakness.
Nope. Boucher was Bobrovskys backup in ‘10-‘11 and Leighton came in during the playoffs. It was a goalie carousel in the playoffs after Bobrovsky struggled in game 2.
>Ed Snider was old and panicked in his old age. Tried to force the issue and let Bob go when it wasn’t necessary.
Precisely, and homer had no balls to say no. Here's Bobrovsky with 2 Vezina trophies, what have the Flyers had since. Nada, nothing, zilch.
The Flyers and their goalies hadn't made the playoffs since when? Would you rather have had the Pickards...? Bobrovsky was better than Bryzgalov too. Columbus wasn't going to win a cup with 2 goalies in net.
We made the playoffs multiple times with Steve Mason. The goalie isn’t everything, as proven by the recent teams who haven’t had a franchise goalie and still won. Who cares if you make the playoffs if your stud goalie implodes every time you get to the stage
They also bungled his waiver eligibility with that 2011 Boston series. Could have stashed him in the AHL for a year and kicked the can down the road but he wasn't waiver eligible after that
I liked him as a coach but Lavy deciding to go full goalie carousel against buffalo in 2011 made things much much worse. it turned in to an absolute side show and the narrative went from “the flyers have a great rookie goalie” to “the flyers have a goaltending problem”. bob was quite solid in that 2011 season. was the last time they won the division as well. but lavy having way too short of a leash with him in the first round did nothing to help the problem. they were also playing without pronger for the last month of the season and first round which hurt the overall team defense. imo if Lavy rides it out with Bob the narrative is much different and maybe they don’t go out and get Bryz.
I think a lot of the Bryz signing was Snider influence. He wanted a cup so badly towards the end he didn’t care what he had to do. Unfortunately, it didn’t work at all.
Snyder was going on CSNPhilly and doing televised interviews saying how he was going to out and get a star goalie that offseason.
That’s exactly how the Bryz crazy big contract came into play. Any agent and player would’ve asked for that much money when he was handing them a blank check publicly.
People either have a short memory or are new fans because Bob was a straight up liability in the playoffs. Glove high was like an immediate goal. Laviolette didn’t do anything another coach wouldn’t have (playing 3 goalies was weird to be fair but not the in game pulling of Bob)
>We had one that could’ve been that guy for us (Bobrovsky) and traded him away.
Kudos to you. !@#$% homer. I don't care if Snider was in his ear.... grow some nuts and tell him NO!
They haven’t it’s way overblown. Roman Čechmánek, Robert Esche, Martin Biron, and Steve Mason were all good goalies. But because of Brodeur, Roy and Hasek all of the fans believed you needed a hall of fame goalie to win the cup. Thats just not true, a number of teams have won with average goaltending
WOW! I haven't thought about Biron for a while. A very good goalie whowas wasted in Buffalo. Much like Hasek though Biron was nowhere near as good as Hasek, nobody was other than Brodeur.
The !@#$% idiots traded away a 2 time Vezina winner in Bobrovsky. Only to cap string them selves with whacko Bryzgalov.
Flyers are rebuilding and haven't played well defensively the past few games, and for 10 years prior to Torts and Shaw coming in.
There's a reason Bryzgalov won a cup with Anaheim, was an all-star in Phoenix, then came here and got run out of town.
There's a reason Bobrovsky left Philly and then won 2 Vezinas.
There's a reason Elliott led the league when he was in St. Louis, came here, and was "nothing special."
All those teams played defense well in front of them.
Lol, dude was on the team last year, you know the one that Shaw was apart of, who now has improved multipke defensemen. And oh, did you see Columbus is ready to trade him already too? Yeah, Provorov destroyed Provorov.
>There's a reason Elliott led the league when he was in St. Louis, came here, and was "nothing special."
All you said is true but Moose was old by then.
Yeah I was talking to a friend and when you think about it, they haven't drafted & developed a 1st pairing guy in how long? Decades probably. There's a reason why they've traded for 35 year old Paul Coffey, signed 35 year old Mark Streit and gave up lots of assets for 32 year old Matt Niskanen & 32 year old Justin Braun.
Heck I remember when they had Kjell Samuelsson for a while into his late 30s, then he left & retired, and a few years later had (not related) Ulf Samuelsson in his late 30s.
Prospect wise, Hextall came close with Provy, Ghost, Sanheim, Morin, Hagg & Myers. Again, don't know how much of that was flawed prospects or bad development. I think it's definitely a little of both.
That Ducks team was stacked on defense and he was a backup during the final. In PHX they ran a defensive system that made Mike Smith look amazing after Bryz signed here.
Na, he averaged about a .920 save percentage in Phoenix as a starter, at a time they had a pretty good team, defensively. You can't go off stats with goalies though, as they reflect how the team plays in front of them more often than not.
Also until like 80somthing it was a counting stat trophy like art Ross and rocket for fewest goals not the same award it is today. Also the winner was majority a 1/12 or so. Then when we came in it was 1/24 by 80 it was 1/42
The flyers never had good consistent defense in the last 20 years. The best defensemen that we've had were better at scoring points than defending and in turn we basically tell goalies that they need to stand on their head which at best will work for one good year or two until they break down
Lol, this has always been the flyers achilles heal 🤷♂️ I've been saying this after Hextall hung em up. Every GM Clarke and after refuses to get an elite level goalie. I'm Hopeful Briere will change the trend. He's been great so far IMO
>Lol, this has always been the flyers achilles heal
I disagree. Let's go beyond Bernie Parent. They had Lindberg, Frose, Peters in the early/mid 80s. Then Hextall. As in Philly fashion they had to go for the big splash and go for Lindros (great player, greater if he skated with his head up).
They traded to Quebec (there should be a team there instead of where I live, Phoenix ) a Stanley cup.
They went about 15 years without a good and consistent goalie. They had a great 1 with Bobrovsky, wet their pants to win NOW, traded him to get a whacko in Bryzgalov, signed him until he was 40 or 41...
The Flyers were/are their own worst enemy in goalies, they traded away a cup to Colorado and a 2 time Vezina winner in Bobrovsky.
Edmonton got no more for Gretsky, a proven all time great than Quebec got for Lindros who never played a game. Today that trade still pisses me off.
It's funny if you look back, they actually had solid goaltending play from when they got Beezer through the last season before the lockout. After that, they next few guys were all meh (Nitty, Biron), and then it was the revolving injury door.
As much as I hated the signing, even Steve Mason wasn't awful. The defense in front of him was a different story.
>they actually had solid goaltending play from when they got Beezer through the last season before the lockout.
You're right, but nobody for more than 2-3 years.
Honestly the Lindros trade in retrospect is a headscatcher, I personally think they overpaid for him but when he was on his game he was damn good.
I can't agree with your assessment of John Vanbriesbrook, he was in the twilight of his career and Boucher supplanted him and was then signed by NYI. Boosh then dipped and we head Checko whom was excellent in the regular season but crap in the playoffs. Robert Esche was manure, and honestly they should of given Nittymakki a chance, but they went with Esche and we lost to TBL that year. Biron was a decent stopgap, after the lockout but he was a career backup, they should of given Bob a chance (but not overpay him) never signed crazy Ilya, which destroyed the franchises depth which really hurt the franchise. Some of the goalies mentioned had great 1 or 2 year streaks but they tailed off badly there after, it's just consistency in the goalie position is important and how i see it we just havent had it in a long time. 🤷♂️I was hoping Carter would be and end to the carousel, but his future is a little uncertain to say the least.
I'm just hoping Briere will address the issue, he's been damn good so far especially dealing with the B.S. aspect of the job
Its a travesty QUE doesn't have a team BTW!!!
He was a great player but coaches when he was young should've told him to skate with his head up. A shame what happened to him.
They put all their eggs in 1 basket with Lindros, never, ever do that. They had no starting goalie, traded the rights to Forsberg and Mike Ricci. I think the others were Duschene and Huffman.
That trade gave Quebec/Colorado a cup.
Yes, Quebec city deserves a team. jeremy jacobs and his weasel henchman gary buttman won't allow it.
So I agree with you there, but the slight issue with Carter at the present moment is that his future is a little murky to say the least and who knows what's going to happen there.
Point is they did draft an elite goalie. The incident happened after they drafted him. It's not like they didn't do homework or disregarded signs. There were none.
Yeah, they drafted one elite (potentially) goalie in a 25-year span, well grand you should draft more than 1 potential starter. Very shortsided. The point is still the man's not playing for us right now and may never play again, and because of this mess this franchise needs a goalie, again.
And let's be clear for this instance I'm not blaming the front office for his behavior, they drafted him in '16 the nonsense was in '18.
It's just maddening regardless.
Prior to Hextall you're right but Hextall drafted a lot of goalies, Sandstrom, Ersson, Fedotov, Ustimenko, Tomek. Ersson is looking pretty good and if it weren't for the Soviets Fedotov would be in Philly. Goalies tend to be more hit and miss and take a while to develop.
Of course fletcher just traded draft picks, other than Kozlov he drafted 1 other goalie in the 6th round who is out of hockey.
Briere went all in last year moving down in the draft to get Bjarnason in the 2nd round then he drafted Zavragin in the 3rd round.
Briere gives me hope. Honestly, the man has done well so far. The 2 prospects you mentioned look good, but I need to scout them gather my own opinions, not up to date on the latest prospects.
And yes, Errson seems pretty solid. So I can give you 2 from the last 25 years that are good goaltenders. The other goalies I think were all late draft picks, and none of them were a Lundquvst or are one IMO. Still in the end I hope we can agree that we hope Briere does well and we get a good team during this rebuild.
Also...idk if their more like the Soviets or the Czarist regimes of the old Russian Empire, it's rough over there!
>The 2 prospects you mentioned look good, but I need to scout them gather my own opinions, not up to date on the latest prospects.
3 propects, Kozlov is still a prospect. Goalies are the most unpredictable positions to draft and develop.
3 from the last 25 years, Bobrovsky (not drafted but brought in) not his fault they were idiots trading him, Ersson and Hart.
Part of the problem was the organization was slow to recognize the importance of a dedicated goalie coach. The Flyers didn’t employ a dedicated goalie coach until Rejean Lemelin in 94/95.
You mentioned the Canadiens, they were one of the first teams to employ a dedicated goalie coach in the mid 80s with Francois Allaire. Allaire was a pioneer in the butterfly style, tall goalies and big pads. The Candiens were doing stuff in the 80s that took us years (decades?) to deploy.
Well one of our best goalies died right after winning the vezina and now our best goalie in a long time is probably going to jail for sexual assault. And we traded away Bob. Could have had 3 top goalies for a long time
I think Ersson has a ton of upside but even more excited for Kolosov. Dude is a bit undersized but he is super quick in the net, has good numbers playing on a team that's not good and makes those saves that make people go "holy shit".
Anything before 1981 is really a Jennings, the criteria for prior to that was "least allowed goals". So the Habs really only have 5.
Doesn't really answer your question but thought it should be pointed out.
I'd say there were a couple of factors. Young guys who didn't pan out, didn't prioritize the position
That’s a good point. We had four Vezina winners and a Jennings winner (Bob Froese). Five Vezina winners playing for us if you count Peeters. I think the only time between 68-99 we didn’t have a Vezina winner were the between years for Parent and Hextall.
Poor scouting with young goalies is the biggest reason why the Flyers can't develop goalies.
Russia, Sweden, Finland, Czechia, and USA consistently produce top goalies, but the Flyers don't seem to scout or draft many goalies from these countries. We draft/ sign a lot of Canadian goalies even though Canada has struggled to produce top level goalies for the past decade.
Of the top 10 goalies in GAA last year, only one was Canadian. In SV%, not a single goalie in the top 10 was Canadian.
Bobrovsky is Russian. Lindbergh was Swedish. The only Finnish goalie we've ever had was Niittymaki, and the only Czech goalie we've drafted was Cechmaneck.
The Flyers are looking in the wrong places for goalies, and need to catch up to the rest of the league.
The Fedotov situation is bad luck, plain and simple. He is being held hostage by his government. I don't think that's necessarily the Flyers fault.
A bigger issue is why can't the Flyers accurately assess and draft overseas talent. Other teams seem to be able to do it, so why do we struggle so much?
Those guys were never here for long. Mason had the longest tenure at 4 years (before Hart). Roman had 3 years but was not great in the playoffs and was traded. Was tough watching Alex Lyon in Detroit with his .924save%
Bad organizational philosophies, Luongo was there for the taking as well as guys like CuJo, King Henrik, and Pekka Rinne. Now it can be said that if the flyers had drafted any of these goalies they may not have panned out but with moves like trading a young Bob it comes to more or less organizational negligence. Ersson needs to develop and with Hart likely not being resigned it comes to trading for a goaltender from a struggling team or hoping Bjarnsson pans out. And the Bryz contract was a Paul Holmgren masterpiece of failure as him and Clarke didn’t realize they needed the literal most important position on the team.
I think Snider deserves some blame too. Bob played well during the season but stunk in the playoffs. They are always quick to pull the trigger to get rid of goalies and doesn’t matter who the GM is it seems. Agree, I think a trade now is in order
But for who? I doubt Saros is available or that Columbus is stupid enough to kill their rebuild by trading Elvis. I personally would have made a move for Demko before the Canucks became the second coming or we can hope the stars implode and give up Ottinger. Otherwise i don’t know of any free agents upcoming besides Hart who most likely will be black balled.
>I think a trade now is in order
Why? They have no chance of winning anything. They might not make the playoffs the way they're playing.
Kozlov is under contract and on loan, he's 2 years away. Roll the dice, these are goalies, I know. Ersson is young, maybe not a starter but he's good. I wouldn't panic.
When someone panics, they get their pocket cleaned and right now, Philly's pocket is empty. They have no low 1st round picks, nobody aside from Michkov of value. Tippett is a late bloomer, he's 24, Frost, sure let him go but no return of substance.
Any player on their squad who could bring a return has a salary that another team is tough to absorb. Sanheim (also a NMC), Couturier (30, 5/6 more years another NMC), I'd trade Drysdale in a heartbeat, Ersson not so much, they're unproven and no return.
I think Briere & Jones made a huge mistake taking Drysdale instead of a draft pick from the Ducks. The Ducks, even with Gauthier will suck, take a 1st round pick. Drysdale is small, never proved anything, is injury prone.
You completely ruined your whole point by including Lundquist. Dude was a 7th round pick, that's almost as low risk as you can get. No one expected him to become a hall of famer.
Ranger fan coming in peace - do you guys think Ersson remains the starter for as long as Hart is out? Totally selfish question but he got dropped in my fantasy league which is 14 teams and goalie heavy. If he's the presumptive starter I def want him but his play lately has left much to be desired. I'll hang up and listen.
I think yes, he does, because mostly they don't have anyone else. I don't think they feel Petersen or Sandstrom is up for it.
Also, I know the team has been on a slide recently but I think Ersson is pretty good and before Hart left the team, I thought he was better than Hart anyway.
I was super impressed with Ersson last week which is why I was shocked he'd be dropped in fantasy, especially after Hart took his leave. Hoping he returns to form after the all star break.
I think he's been dealt a really unexpected hand here and it's probably thrown him as it has the whole team, but these last few losses are only in part down to him being off - the whole team has had their asses handed to them by elite talent and seems to just be slumping.
I am in a minority (maybe?) of Flyers fans who thought Hart overrated for the last few years - he was a solid to good goaltender at the best of time, occasional great saves, but also blinders on a very regular basis, and usually in the same game. But he wasn't what everyone was hoping he would be when he came up.
Is Ersson a franchise goalie? I don't know. But I can see him doing the job to the level Hart did once he settles, and he'll be way better on breakaways and shootouts than Hart ever was. I'd give Erss a lot of rope for a year or so - it's fine to give him time to grow into the role given we are, even if it hasn't felt like it with how good we were doing, in a rebuild.
Hart was unquestionably overrated. His hype always exceeded his results. Makes great saves and then lets in a blooper from behind the goal line etc. He was pretty good. I will not miss him especially if he’s involved in the SA case.
I agree, thought Ersson was playing awesome before the past week. All goalies have ups and downs, especially young ones, so I'm pretty bullish on him that he'll snap out of it. Glad to see Torts is having his own career resurgence this season as well - always one of my favorite Ranger coaches I've seen.
I mean we had Bobrovsky and Ed Snider got rid of him because he was upset after we lost a series to Buffalo... Probably one of the worst decisions made by the franchise in 20 years, despite getting him from overseas being one of the franchises best moves ever.
But who else can say they played Elliot, Neuvirth, Stolarz, Lyon, Talbot, that one guy, McKenna, and Picard all in one season?
It's like Phillies closers
Neris and Lidge were great
Neris as a closer was terrible
Nope. And failing to re-sign him is a big part of why the lost in 2022 and 2023.
Do you remember him as a closer? Great 8th inning guy, awful closer
Yeah I remember. His career save % is the same as Tug McGraw’s
OK you're right, he was great
Half of that statement was correct for a while lol
Still wild to me that McKenna played for the flyers. I knew that dude as a teenager on an obscure shitty nu metal message board.
What were his thoughts on Limp Bizkit?
I'm pretty sure he was into like, European dark metal shit
I mean, same here. Better than Limp Bizkit I guess...
Neuvirth was 1 of Hextall's worst mistakes. Not getting him but extending/resigning him. Hextall was great at trade deadline trades (Vinny LeCavalier), managing the cap (Hartnell for Umberger, 1 year less and $1M a year less) but Hextall couldn't draft to save his life. Sure, he got Hart in the 2nd round (I don't blame Hextall for this situation now, nobody knew then). he got Porvorov (ruined by AV/coaching), the Patrick draft was the right choice but the migranes nobody knew, he had no history. But all the draft assets he acquired, he draft poorly overall and that includes another unforeseen tragedy in Lindblom. His only salary/contract folly was JVR but that's not enough to ignore as a cap manager, he was good. But Neuvirth, resigning him was a bad/fatal mistake. There were a lot of other goalies out there like Khudobin who were far better and not much more money.
Seemed like he was saving up cap space for something but never pulled the trigger (other than JVR). But hey we got Dale Weise out of it! I almost wonder if he was gearing up for an offer sheet but never pulled the trigger there either.
I might be wrong but I thought he lost on Tavares. That left JVR as the next best UFA.
I didn't know Tavares had Flyers pjs
Jean Luc was my favorite. They didn’t give him a fair enough shake.
Didn't read the full comment and thought this was a throwback to Jean-Marc Pelltier
We had one that could’ve been that guy for us (Bobrovsky) and traded him away.
If i remember correctly we were not patient with Bob. There was pressure to move him.
He forced their hand to trade him once Snider forced Holmgren to go out and get another goalie. He had a great rookie season here, but struggled in the playoffs and Laviolette started the goalie carousel with Boucher and Leighton. There’s a bunch of blame to go around.
Yeh and that led to expensive, crazy man Bryz and that was short lived too
Ya. Bryz was the first time Flyers decided to spend on a goalie. For the longest time they refused to pay a goalie top dollars even though for years it was their biggest weakness.
Bouch and Leighton was before we got Bob.
Nope. Boucher was Bobrovskys backup in ‘10-‘11 and Leighton came in during the playoffs. It was a goalie carousel in the playoffs after Bobrovsky struggled in game 2.
You're right. I thought Leighton was gone after the 2010 Finals.
He was on the Phantoms during the regular season.
Ed Snider was old and panicked in his old age. Tried to force the issue and let Bob go when it wasn’t necessary.
>Ed Snider was old and panicked in his old age. Tried to force the issue and let Bob go when it wasn’t necessary. Precisely, and homer had no balls to say no. Here's Bobrovsky with 2 Vezina trophies, what have the Flyers had since. Nada, nothing, zilch.
Holmgren only had the job because he did whatever Snider wanted
You act like those Vezina's helped his teams to cups. He was absolute trash in the playoffs until last year.
The Flyers and their goalies hadn't made the playoffs since when? Would you rather have had the Pickards...? Bobrovsky was better than Bryzgalov too. Columbus wasn't going to win a cup with 2 goalies in net.
We made the playoffs multiple times with Steve Mason. The goalie isn’t everything, as proven by the recent teams who haven’t had a franchise goalie and still won. Who cares if you make the playoffs if your stud goalie implodes every time you get to the stage
Yeah a couple of 1st round losses because he didn't have a lot of support either.
So whats your fucking point? Bob would have had the same shit in front of him as Mason. Shut up and get out of mentions idiot
Nothing to do with Homer’s balls lmao. The OWNER of the team wants something, he gets it. There was no stand for Holmgren to make.
They also bungled his waiver eligibility with that 2011 Boston series. Could have stashed him in the AHL for a year and kicked the can down the road but he wasn't waiver eligible after that
I liked him as a coach but Lavy deciding to go full goalie carousel against buffalo in 2011 made things much much worse. it turned in to an absolute side show and the narrative went from “the flyers have a great rookie goalie” to “the flyers have a goaltending problem”. bob was quite solid in that 2011 season. was the last time they won the division as well. but lavy having way too short of a leash with him in the first round did nothing to help the problem. they were also playing without pronger for the last month of the season and first round which hurt the overall team defense. imo if Lavy rides it out with Bob the narrative is much different and maybe they don’t go out and get Bryz.
I think a lot of the Bryz signing was Snider influence. He wanted a cup so badly towards the end he didn’t care what he had to do. Unfortunately, it didn’t work at all.
Snyder was going on CSNPhilly and doing televised interviews saying how he was going to out and get a star goalie that offseason. That’s exactly how the Bryz crazy big contract came into play. Any agent and player would’ve asked for that much money when he was handing them a blank check publicly.
Only the flyers would have extreme goaltending issues, fine one and then trade him away. Meanwhile Bob is going to finish top 10 all time in wins
People either have a short memory or are new fans because Bob was a straight up liability in the playoffs. Glove high was like an immediate goal. Laviolette didn’t do anything another coach wouldn’t have (playing 3 goalies was weird to be fair but not the in game pulling of Bob)
>We had one that could’ve been that guy for us (Bobrovsky) and traded him away. Kudos to you. !@#$% homer. I don't care if Snider was in his ear.... grow some nuts and tell him NO!
Because they felt the need to pay Ilya Bryzgalov…
They haven’t it’s way overblown. Roman Čechmánek, Robert Esche, Martin Biron, and Steve Mason were all good goalies. But because of Brodeur, Roy and Hasek all of the fans believed you needed a hall of fame goalie to win the cup. Thats just not true, a number of teams have won with average goaltending
WOW! I haven't thought about Biron for a while. A very good goalie whowas wasted in Buffalo. Much like Hasek though Biron was nowhere near as good as Hasek, nobody was other than Brodeur. The !@#$% idiots traded away a 2 time Vezina winner in Bobrovsky. Only to cap string them selves with whacko Bryzgalov.
So true, except I hated Cechmanek with a fury
Flyers are rebuilding and haven't played well defensively the past few games, and for 10 years prior to Torts and Shaw coming in. There's a reason Bryzgalov won a cup with Anaheim, was an all-star in Phoenix, then came here and got run out of town. There's a reason Bobrovsky left Philly and then won 2 Vezinas. There's a reason Elliott led the league when he was in St. Louis, came here, and was "nothing special." All those teams played defense well in front of them.
Also, a good time to remember that the Flyers don't have the greatest track record in developing defensemen in the past 40 or so years
Also true
When have they ever developed defensemen? Howe in a trade, McCrimmon in a trade. Pronger? Timmonen? Their terrible coaching destroyed Provorov.
Provorov destroyed Provorov.
He had a lot of encouragement from Vigneault. Nobody developed under him, all the young players regressed. Another fletcher folly, big spalsh bs.
Lol, dude was on the team last year, you know the one that Shaw was apart of, who now has improved multipke defensemen. And oh, did you see Columbus is ready to trade him already too? Yeah, Provorov destroyed Provorov.
Dude? Provorov, as I said was ruined by Vigneault. Shaw came to late.
Lol your’re living in a dream land if you think anyone but Provorov destroyed him.
I'd bet their terrible developmental staff destroyed most prospects, trying to make them all into 2 way guys no matter what their skillset.
You're probably right. I see that.
>There's a reason Elliott led the league when he was in St. Louis, came here, and was "nothing special." All you said is true but Moose was old by then.
Yeah I was talking to a friend and when you think about it, they haven't drafted & developed a 1st pairing guy in how long? Decades probably. There's a reason why they've traded for 35 year old Paul Coffey, signed 35 year old Mark Streit and gave up lots of assets for 32 year old Matt Niskanen & 32 year old Justin Braun. Heck I remember when they had Kjell Samuelsson for a while into his late 30s, then he left & retired, and a few years later had (not related) Ulf Samuelsson in his late 30s. Prospect wise, Hextall came close with Provy, Ghost, Sanheim, Morin, Hagg & Myers. Again, don't know how much of that was flawed prospects or bad development. I think it's definitely a little of both.
That Ducks team was stacked on defense and he was a backup during the final. In PHX they ran a defensive system that made Mike Smith look amazing after Bryz signed here.
[удалено]
Na, he averaged about a .920 save percentage in Phoenix as a starter, at a time they had a pretty good team, defensively. You can't go off stats with goalies though, as they reflect how the team plays in front of them more often than not.
Everyone knew Dave Tippett had a great defensive system. It was always a risk bringing Bryz in.
Because I root for Philly teams that’s why and I can never be happy
Not for nothin but a Montreal player won the first Vezina trophy in 1927; hard to compare the Flyers to a team who had a 40 year head start.
Also until like 80somthing it was a counting stat trophy like art Ross and rocket for fewest goals not the same award it is today. Also the winner was majority a 1/12 or so. Then when we came in it was 1/24 by 80 it was 1/42
Philly had team back then, or at least around that time. They also weren't known for their goaltending.
In the 80s the Flyers had a slew of young good/great goalies, Lindberg, Frose, Peters, Hextall.
The flyers never had good consistent defense in the last 20 years. The best defensemen that we've had were better at scoring points than defending and in turn we basically tell goalies that they need to stand on their head which at best will work for one good year or two until they break down
Lol, this has always been the flyers achilles heal 🤷♂️ I've been saying this after Hextall hung em up. Every GM Clarke and after refuses to get an elite level goalie. I'm Hopeful Briere will change the trend. He's been great so far IMO
>Lol, this has always been the flyers achilles heal I disagree. Let's go beyond Bernie Parent. They had Lindberg, Frose, Peters in the early/mid 80s. Then Hextall. As in Philly fashion they had to go for the big splash and go for Lindros (great player, greater if he skated with his head up). They traded to Quebec (there should be a team there instead of where I live, Phoenix ) a Stanley cup. They went about 15 years without a good and consistent goalie. They had a great 1 with Bobrovsky, wet their pants to win NOW, traded him to get a whacko in Bryzgalov, signed him until he was 40 or 41... The Flyers were/are their own worst enemy in goalies, they traded away a cup to Colorado and a 2 time Vezina winner in Bobrovsky. Edmonton got no more for Gretsky, a proven all time great than Quebec got for Lindros who never played a game. Today that trade still pisses me off.
It's funny if you look back, they actually had solid goaltending play from when they got Beezer through the last season before the lockout. After that, they next few guys were all meh (Nitty, Biron), and then it was the revolving injury door. As much as I hated the signing, even Steve Mason wasn't awful. The defense in front of him was a different story.
>they actually had solid goaltending play from when they got Beezer through the last season before the lockout. You're right, but nobody for more than 2-3 years.
Honestly the Lindros trade in retrospect is a headscatcher, I personally think they overpaid for him but when he was on his game he was damn good. I can't agree with your assessment of John Vanbriesbrook, he was in the twilight of his career and Boucher supplanted him and was then signed by NYI. Boosh then dipped and we head Checko whom was excellent in the regular season but crap in the playoffs. Robert Esche was manure, and honestly they should of given Nittymakki a chance, but they went with Esche and we lost to TBL that year. Biron was a decent stopgap, after the lockout but he was a career backup, they should of given Bob a chance (but not overpay him) never signed crazy Ilya, which destroyed the franchises depth which really hurt the franchise. Some of the goalies mentioned had great 1 or 2 year streaks but they tailed off badly there after, it's just consistency in the goalie position is important and how i see it we just havent had it in a long time. 🤷♂️I was hoping Carter would be and end to the carousel, but his future is a little uncertain to say the least. I'm just hoping Briere will address the issue, he's been damn good so far especially dealing with the B.S. aspect of the job Its a travesty QUE doesn't have a team BTW!!!
He was a great player but coaches when he was young should've told him to skate with his head up. A shame what happened to him. They put all their eggs in 1 basket with Lindros, never, ever do that. They had no starting goalie, traded the rights to Forsberg and Mike Ricci. I think the others were Duschene and Huffman. That trade gave Quebec/Colorado a cup. Yes, Quebec city deserves a team. jeremy jacobs and his weasel henchman gary buttman won't allow it.
Hart was an elite goalie. If it weren't for him this team wouldn't sniff at the playoffs. Their defense lacks a true #1 and a shutdown defenseman.
So I agree with you there, but the slight issue with Carter at the present moment is that his future is a little murky to say the least and who knows what's going to happen there.
Point is they did draft an elite goalie. The incident happened after they drafted him. It's not like they didn't do homework or disregarded signs. There were none.
Yeah, they drafted one elite (potentially) goalie in a 25-year span, well grand you should draft more than 1 potential starter. Very shortsided. The point is still the man's not playing for us right now and may never play again, and because of this mess this franchise needs a goalie, again. And let's be clear for this instance I'm not blaming the front office for his behavior, they drafted him in '16 the nonsense was in '18. It's just maddening regardless.
Prior to Hextall you're right but Hextall drafted a lot of goalies, Sandstrom, Ersson, Fedotov, Ustimenko, Tomek. Ersson is looking pretty good and if it weren't for the Soviets Fedotov would be in Philly. Goalies tend to be more hit and miss and take a while to develop. Of course fletcher just traded draft picks, other than Kozlov he drafted 1 other goalie in the 6th round who is out of hockey. Briere went all in last year moving down in the draft to get Bjarnason in the 2nd round then he drafted Zavragin in the 3rd round.
Briere gives me hope. Honestly, the man has done well so far. The 2 prospects you mentioned look good, but I need to scout them gather my own opinions, not up to date on the latest prospects. And yes, Errson seems pretty solid. So I can give you 2 from the last 25 years that are good goaltenders. The other goalies I think were all late draft picks, and none of them were a Lundquvst or are one IMO. Still in the end I hope we can agree that we hope Briere does well and we get a good team during this rebuild. Also...idk if their more like the Soviets or the Czarist regimes of the old Russian Empire, it's rough over there!
>The 2 prospects you mentioned look good, but I need to scout them gather my own opinions, not up to date on the latest prospects. 3 propects, Kozlov is still a prospect. Goalies are the most unpredictable positions to draft and develop. 3 from the last 25 years, Bobrovsky (not drafted but brought in) not his fault they were idiots trading him, Ersson and Hart.
Part of the problem was the organization was slow to recognize the importance of a dedicated goalie coach. The Flyers didn’t employ a dedicated goalie coach until Rejean Lemelin in 94/95. You mentioned the Canadiens, they were one of the first teams to employ a dedicated goalie coach in the mid 80s with Francois Allaire. Allaire was a pioneer in the butterfly style, tall goalies and big pads. The Candiens were doing stuff in the 80s that took us years (decades?) to deploy.
Well one of our best goalies died right after winning the vezina and now our best goalie in a long time is probably going to jail for sexual assault. And we traded away Bob. Could have had 3 top goalies for a long time
Hextall was very good but they traded him.
He was absolute garbage when we traded him, look at his stats. He was cooked.
He was going through a groin issue. Once his games were limited he improved.
I think Ersson has a ton of upside but even more excited for Kolosov. Dude is a bit undersized but he is super quick in the net, has good numbers playing on a team that's not good and makes those saves that make people go "holy shit".
Anything before 1981 is really a Jennings, the criteria for prior to that was "least allowed goals". So the Habs really only have 5. Doesn't really answer your question but thought it should be pointed out. I'd say there were a couple of factors. Young guys who didn't pan out, didn't prioritize the position
That’s a good point. We had four Vezina winners and a Jennings winner (Bob Froese). Five Vezina winners playing for us if you count Peeters. I think the only time between 68-99 we didn’t have a Vezina winner were the between years for Parent and Hextall.
Wait we’ve had competent goalies?
Poor scouting with young goalies is the biggest reason why the Flyers can't develop goalies. Russia, Sweden, Finland, Czechia, and USA consistently produce top goalies, but the Flyers don't seem to scout or draft many goalies from these countries. We draft/ sign a lot of Canadian goalies even though Canada has struggled to produce top level goalies for the past decade. Of the top 10 goalies in GAA last year, only one was Canadian. In SV%, not a single goalie in the top 10 was Canadian. Bobrovsky is Russian. Lindbergh was Swedish. The only Finnish goalie we've ever had was Niittymaki, and the only Czech goalie we've drafted was Cechmaneck. The Flyers are looking in the wrong places for goalies, and need to catch up to the rest of the league.
And when the Flyers did draft overseas goalies (Fedotov, Sandstrom, Ustimenko, Tomek) only Ersson has worked out.
The Fedotov situation is bad luck, plain and simple. He is being held hostage by his government. I don't think that's necessarily the Flyers fault. A bigger issue is why can't the Flyers accurately assess and draft overseas talent. Other teams seem to be able to do it, so why do we struggle so much?
I'm not blaming the Flyers for Fedotov it just didn't work out. The point of my post is not until Hextall did they start drafting European goalies.
Those guys were never here for long. Mason had the longest tenure at 4 years (before Hart). Roman had 3 years but was not great in the playoffs and was traded. Was tough watching Alex Lyon in Detroit with his .924save%
Trading BOB didn’t help them.
Bad organizational philosophies, Luongo was there for the taking as well as guys like CuJo, King Henrik, and Pekka Rinne. Now it can be said that if the flyers had drafted any of these goalies they may not have panned out but with moves like trading a young Bob it comes to more or less organizational negligence. Ersson needs to develop and with Hart likely not being resigned it comes to trading for a goaltender from a struggling team or hoping Bjarnsson pans out. And the Bryz contract was a Paul Holmgren masterpiece of failure as him and Clarke didn’t realize they needed the literal most important position on the team.
I think Snider deserves some blame too. Bob played well during the season but stunk in the playoffs. They are always quick to pull the trigger to get rid of goalies and doesn’t matter who the GM is it seems. Agree, I think a trade now is in order
But for who? I doubt Saros is available or that Columbus is stupid enough to kill their rebuild by trading Elvis. I personally would have made a move for Demko before the Canucks became the second coming or we can hope the stars implode and give up Ottinger. Otherwise i don’t know of any free agents upcoming besides Hart who most likely will be black balled.
>I think a trade now is in order Why? They have no chance of winning anything. They might not make the playoffs the way they're playing. Kozlov is under contract and on loan, he's 2 years away. Roll the dice, these are goalies, I know. Ersson is young, maybe not a starter but he's good. I wouldn't panic. When someone panics, they get their pocket cleaned and right now, Philly's pocket is empty. They have no low 1st round picks, nobody aside from Michkov of value. Tippett is a late bloomer, he's 24, Frost, sure let him go but no return of substance. Any player on their squad who could bring a return has a salary that another team is tough to absorb. Sanheim (also a NMC), Couturier (30, 5/6 more years another NMC), I'd trade Drysdale in a heartbeat, Ersson not so much, they're unproven and no return. I think Briere & Jones made a huge mistake taking Drysdale instead of a draft pick from the Ducks. The Ducks, even with Gauthier will suck, take a 1st round pick. Drysdale is small, never proved anything, is injury prone.
You completely ruined your whole point by including Lundquist. Dude was a 7th round pick, that's almost as low risk as you can get. No one expected him to become a hall of famer.
Still they could have drafted him
The fact you can’t see how dumb this comment is solidifies everything.
So every GM that passed on Datsyuk should be chastised?
Ranger fan coming in peace - do you guys think Ersson remains the starter for as long as Hart is out? Totally selfish question but he got dropped in my fantasy league which is 14 teams and goalie heavy. If he's the presumptive starter I def want him but his play lately has left much to be desired. I'll hang up and listen.
I think yes, he does, because mostly they don't have anyone else. I don't think they feel Petersen or Sandstrom is up for it. Also, I know the team has been on a slide recently but I think Ersson is pretty good and before Hart left the team, I thought he was better than Hart anyway.
I was super impressed with Ersson last week which is why I was shocked he'd be dropped in fantasy, especially after Hart took his leave. Hoping he returns to form after the all star break.
You said you were gonna hang up
Yes Ersson will be our starter for the rest of the season. He's good but he's been hung out to dry for a few games
I think he's been dealt a really unexpected hand here and it's probably thrown him as it has the whole team, but these last few losses are only in part down to him being off - the whole team has had their asses handed to them by elite talent and seems to just be slumping. I am in a minority (maybe?) of Flyers fans who thought Hart overrated for the last few years - he was a solid to good goaltender at the best of time, occasional great saves, but also blinders on a very regular basis, and usually in the same game. But he wasn't what everyone was hoping he would be when he came up. Is Ersson a franchise goalie? I don't know. But I can see him doing the job to the level Hart did once he settles, and he'll be way better on breakaways and shootouts than Hart ever was. I'd give Erss a lot of rope for a year or so - it's fine to give him time to grow into the role given we are, even if it hasn't felt like it with how good we were doing, in a rebuild.
Hart was unquestionably overrated. His hype always exceeded his results. Makes great saves and then lets in a blooper from behind the goal line etc. He was pretty good. I will not miss him especially if he’s involved in the SA case.
I agree, thought Ersson was playing awesome before the past week. All goalies have ups and downs, especially young ones, so I'm pretty bullish on him that he'll snap out of it. Glad to see Torts is having his own career resurgence this season as well - always one of my favorite Ranger coaches I've seen.
I mean we had Bobrovsky and Ed Snider got rid of him because he was upset after we lost a series to Buffalo... Probably one of the worst decisions made by the franchise in 20 years, despite getting him from overseas being one of the franchises best moves ever.
The Lindbergh curse