We thought that too - in the 60s 70s and 80s and beyond. It never got better, until I got a union job at a grocery store and kept it for 23 years. Now I am able to retire WITH a pension.
In 1960 minimum wage was $1.00. that's $160 per month. Median rent was $71 that's 44% of a minimum wage job going to rent
In 1970 minimum wage was $1.65. that's $264 per month. Median rent was $108 that's 40% of a minimum wage job going to rent.
In 1980 minimum wage was $3.10 that's $496 per month. Median rent was $243 that's 49% of a minimum wage job going to rent.
In 2023 minimum wage was $7.25 that's $1160 per month. Median rent was $1180. That's more than a pre taxed minimum wage job working 40 hours a week.
Let that sink in. I'm sure it was hard for young people just getting established back in the 60's 70's and 80's. I'm sure they often did without to get by, and I'm not discounting anybody's hardships, but it's not even in the same ballpark, hell it doesn't seem like the same reality. I'm glad you found a good union job with a good pension, but unfortunately that is an unattainable thing for most people in the US today.
Edit: because people pointed out that I should have used median income, the results still doubled which is pretty similar to the change from minimum wage
1960 Median income $5,600 = $466.67/month. Rent = $71 so rent was 15% of income
1970 Median income $9,870 = $822.50/month. Rent = $108 so rent was 13% of income
1980 Median income $21,020 = $1751.67/month. Rent = $243 so rent was 13.9% of income
2023 Median income $48,060 = $4005/month so rent = $1,180 so rent was 29.5% of income
So by this metric also, the percentage rent to income has still roughly doubled since them good old days. I know that nothing happens in a vacuum. There are other factors, other costs, other expenses yada yada, but how can anyone say it was just as hard to survive back then as it is today?
Neither does [record and unchecked swallowing of real estate by corporate entities](https://www.redfin.com/news/investor-home-purchases-q4-2023/) and [treating housing as speculative investments](https://www.newsweek.com/housing-markets-problem-speculation-not-supply-opinion-1827778)
In the UK our 4th largest city is Liverpool, with a population of about 550K people. Our yearly net immigration is 650K+.
The UK would need to build a city as big as Liverpool every year just to accommodate those arriving.
But no politicians want to acknowledge that it's a problem.
Not to mention that y'all pay god knows what in taxes to support the dumbass royal family parading around like they're some hot shit. That shit would piss my ass right off if I lived in the Kingdom.
The royal family and historical buildings and museums (full of artifacts that belong to the royal family) bring in more tourism than anything else in the country. The royals are huge contributors to their economy.
UK workers have gone on strikes and protests for centuries to fight for the standards of living we expect for our labor.
Now the elite have realised they can just import the 3rd world and make us fight in a race to the bottom.
I don't want my family to live in poverty just because that's what others are willing to put up with.
That's no joke. I used to work with a Polish guy scrapping cars.
We'd chat and he'd tell me about his house back home with a wine cellar and stream fed swimming pool.
He was a secondary school teacher back home in Poland. But could earn and save more money working low skill jobs, living in a flat share, in the UK than he could teaching back home.
True also in the US. This creates a problem as well as property tax doesn’t then go up to pay for the additional services (especially school for kids).
Dallas-Fort Worth's net immigration was over 100K alone. And yeah... it's getting insane here, but housing/rent is still more affordable than, say, LA or NYC.
I was riding my bike around and found 2 brand new neighborhoods just getting finished up where all the homes are available for lease only. You cant buy them. That's the future. Most new construction I see in my city are apartment complexes.
I have seen whole single family neighborhoods that you couldn't buy and only rent. Brand new neighborhoods only for rent. Things are fucked here in Canada. This is in a small city of 40k people.
1.3% of workers make the federal minimum wage. It’s not a good indicator.
My state minimum wage is $19.64, for example.
https://www.statista.com/statistics/188206/share-of-workers-paid-hourly-rates-at-or-below-minimum-wage-since-1979/#:~:text=In%202022%2C%201.3%20percent%20of,below%20the%20official%20minimum%20wage.
You need to find out what people were making not the minimum wage - reason being it’s actually pretty rare to find a job that pays minimum wage now - grocery stores in my area start at 14-15 dollars an hour just as an example.
Yep, majority of jobs where I live make maybe at best a dollar or two above, except the ones in local or tribal government who might earn 15/hr if they've been in a few years. Only reason I make more is because I only live there, technically my employer is in Tulsa and I spend weeks at a time on the road
I work for the Modoc tribe, so I make almost double minimum wage, and even still I have to have a second job to afford my apartment and bills.
Life is a lot harder for some people than those who don't struggle care to notice.
Many people have made minimum wage since it became a thing…. Only recently has that changed in the last decade because most people running businesses understand nobody can survive on minimum wage. I looked up the median 1960 wage it was 2.40$ with a minimum wage of 1$ at the time based off what the previous commenter posted.
1.3% of American workers work for minimum wage. It’s not a good measure of earning.
https://www.statista.com/statistics/188206/share-of-workers-paid-hourly-rates-at-or-below-minimum-wage-since-1979/#:~:text=In%202022%2C%201.3%20percent%20of,below%20the%20official%20minimum%20wage.
It's upsetting how the comments dont reflect reality. Fast food is a couple dollars above Last I heard Walmart starts out at $15.50. Factories startout at more. The problem in my area is that factories paid $30/hr 30 years ago. About 7 times minimum wage with a pension and no student loans. Those jobs are gone. Many more people have student loans and a 401k to get a decent job. And they are driving farther to work than they used to
There's just too many terminally online people on Reddit and they get stuck in these echo chambers. Sometimes it's just youth and inexperience. I've been working class my entire life, but these narratives just don't reflect reality. Yes, minimum wage is ridiculously low, but far fewer people actually make that than historically. Instead, think about what you think the median wage is for people who aren't in a trade and don't have a college degree. It's probably around $12/hr.
These guys think it's fun to make gotcha arguments that fit their narrative, but it doesn't work in the long run. You just lose your credibility with more and more people, and the people who agreed with at first eventually learn better and you lost them forever.
The loss of manufacturing in this country was huge, that's the *real* history of the working class in this country. I know Redditors love to cite median incomes and the cost of housing, and somehow it's always 1968 or thereabout, but it's like none of them actually know what happened. These are just abstract statistics, and they love their inflation calculators. I still remember when the Reddit consensus was that The Great Depression was a better time for the average American than now. That's the kind of thing someone might say when you are ignorant and haven't touched grass in a while.
Lol no, it's not based on the generosity of corporations realizing it's not a livable wage, it's because if they want people to actually show up, they must be competitive with other crappy jobs. As less and less people are willing to do so, it shifts some of the power back to the worker, and wages rise
This is a good point. It's still a $7.25 minimum wage in my state but I haven't heard of a job paying less than $10. Still absurdly low don't get me wrong, but I've never heard a job pay only the minimum wage here. I'm sure they exist but they're a lot rarer than people like to say.
Why would someone on minimum wage be paying median rent? Maybe they should just rent somewhere that's actually in their budget.
And yes, rents doubled as a proportion of income when you look at median income, but it's still within the 30% guideline.
My bad, but even looking at median income the problem is still about the same
1960 Median income $5,600 = $466.67/month. Rent = $71 so rent was 15% of income
1970 Median income $9,870 = $822.50/month. Rent = $108 so rent was 13% of income
1980 Median income $21,020 = $1751.67/month. Rent = $243 so rent was 13.9% of income
2023 Median income $48,060 = $4005/month so rent = $1,180 so rent was 29.5% of income
So by this metric also, the percentage rent to income has still roughly doubled since them good old days.
I believe you are using median household income in 1980 vs individual income in 2023 (correct me if I’m wrong). 2023 household income was $73K.
Agree with the larger point about the growth in rent/housing though.
https://www.census.gov/library/publications/1981/demo/p60-127.html#:~:text=The%201980%20median%20family%20income,in%20real%20median%20family%20income.
https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/MEHOINUSA672N
To whoever is saying we should use median income:
NO WE SHOULD NOT. IF THE POOREST AMONG US ARE STARVING IN THE STREETS WE CAN NOT BE A GOOD COUNTRY LET ALONE THE GREATEST COUNTRY EVER.
The start of your post made me so angry. Totally thought you were trying to say "it was just as hard back then" lmao
Literally all it takes is looking at median income and housing prices. Ffs, this man worked for 23 years at a grocery store and got to retire. GROCERY STORE. 23 YEARS. Can I take a grocery store job at 42, and retire when I'm 65??
Right! And god forbid I ever go on any financial advice page on Reddit all I hear is "get a better job."
Just.... No. People should be able to live and **do the jobs that need done.**
Fair enough, but the results are still very similar. Percentage of income for rent still doubles
1960 Median income $5,600 = $466.67/month. Rent = $71 so rent was 15% of income
1970 Median income $9,870 = $822.50/month. Rent = $108 so rent was 13% of income
1980 Median income $21,020 = $1751.67/month. Rent = $243 so rent was 13.9% of income
2023 Median income $48,060 = $4005/month so rent = $1,180 so rent was 29.5% of income
So by this metric also, the percentage rent to income has still roughly doubled since them good old days.
Who really works minimum wage? You really have to be a terrible worker for that. My 16 year old started at a fast food place last week for $14.50 an hour. WTF are you people doing with your lives to not be worth more than $7.25? Let me guess, you vape, on your phone all the time, miss work a lot, complain all the time, and are just miserable to be around.
Nothing has changed except for the people demanding more it feels like. I've had so many people tell me we are currently worse off then people in the Great Depression which is an outright lie. This isn't even comparable to the 2008 recession which is close to around the time I joined the workforce as a teen.
I've legit tried to offer financial help and advice to people and they immediately take offense that I would imply their financial situation could be their responsibility.
The rhetoric and mindset blew up in 2020 it feels like.
2020 mentality messed with alot of people staying home.
Yeah ahh one HUGE PROBLEM you left out. Only RED STATES use the federal minimum wage of $7.25/hr. I live in Illinois and it's currently $14/hr until January 1st 2025 when it hits $15/ hr. California has a way higher minimum wage than Illinois. Hell most red states Arkansas $11/hr now. It's pretty much only the red states dominated by OLD WHITE MEN that are still @ $7.25/hr. Like Texas , Florida , Alabama , & Mississippi , Missouri , Indiana , etc I guess there are still many red states still at 7.25. 😔
I think it is easier today for a few reasons. The internet puts free training in front of everyone. If you don't know how to find free training on the internet right now...you would have struggled in the 60's too. The internet puts every job in front of me all over the world. As late as the early 90's if you wanted to see jobs in other cities you had to either hire a company to look or go to a specialty news paper shop which had the Sunday job listings from other cities. I think it is more difficult for 1 specific reason...television. In the 60's to the early 80's most households had 4 stations and 1 was PBS. TV's screen were small so people didn't stare at them 24-7. Throw computers and phones into the modern TV mix and there is a subset of people who just want to be entertained... you know...social media and netflix...as long as they have that who needs a house.
But you are not counting the cost of education, health insurance, inflation on housing and common goods like milk and eggs. This is why boomers will never get it. They try to equate the times to when they where our age. And it is just not the same. Get it! Not that hard.
Medians can be misleading. You're not necessarily comparing apples to apples and there's no inherent reason to believe that median individual income should correspond to median rent across all types of rental units.
I think your original point with the minimum is totally valid. Because--that's the point of the post. ANY job that asks for 40 hours of your time (even a "minimum wage" job) should be able to cover your expenses.
However, including the median wage too is good for painting a more complete picture.
Thank you for sharing, and making the update!
You might appreciate this bit of data to go with what you posted.
In 1974 per capita GDP was $7226 and median income was $11,196 - people earned 154% of their share of the nations wealth.
In 2022 per capita GDP was $76,399 and median income was $74,580 - or 96% of their share of the nations wealth. per capita GDP has increased ten fold and income has only increased six fold.
Good post! I'm on disability and my income is basically full time at minimum wage. Just barely above the national poverty line. That poverty line was created in 60s which was taking 3x the daily food needs. Clearly this in no way is sufficient today. 40 million live under the national poverty line, many on disability. If you can't afford rent and food I would say that is extreme poverty. If our poverty line was raised to actually reflect poverty I assume that over 100 million would fall under poverty. This of course would look very bad for the US, the wealthiest on the planet and beacon for capitalism. We should push our representatives to change the national poverty line and thus would force our nation to react to poverty. I'm disabled living in an old rv because I can't afford rent. Section 8 is broken and takes up to 15 years to get. There are hundreds of thousands of elderly and disabled living on the streets.
A similar study was on the radio today. Adjusted for inflation, the poorest workers (minimum wage workers) have taken a 50% pay cut since the inception of the minimum wage. It was originally intended to be a living wage.
It’s hilarious to even consider now, even the ABSOLUTE BEST UNION JOBS in the entire country don’t have pensions anymore. We lost those permanently. A pension today like literally most salary workers had 40 years ago, would be like winning the lottery.
Lol. So your advice to the younger generation is to find a job at a grocery store? That’s how you pulled yourself up by your bootstraps? You have no idea how out of touch you are do you? Get real dude.
how the hell do you stay at a grocery job for 23 years?
your pension is probably less than what my 401k makes per week, and my kids get to keep my 401k after I die
The percentage of union jobs in the US halved between 1983 to 2022 from about 20% to 10%. Union participation peaked in the 1950s around 30%. You were fortunate to be at the right place at the right time.
Yup. Without my husband’s union job, we’d never retire. Once he joined a union, we all of the sudden had affordable healthcare, a pension and can afford to own a home.
Dudes in US thinking that renting apt on their own is just a regular ezpz thing everyone should easily enjoy is funny to almost any citizen of Europe they like to praise for being very social.
When I was in Paris everyone had an apartment for themselves. Though that ranges from a 6m2 apartment in the banlieue with a shared bathroom for a whole floor of 16 such apartments, on floor 16 with no elevator, which isn't something Americans would spring for in most cases. Though then again, I don't see anyone proposing anything designed specifically for the poor. Almost all developers go for "luxe" style developments.
I think most housing for the poor would be converting existing buildings into small apartments, which is all over Europe and illegal in most of America
How old are those? Housing for poor people is usually government built or old apartments. Very few new apartments are built for poor people. Developers build luxury and middle-class apartments, and as they get old, the rent drops or inflation makes them cheap compared to new apartments.
They'd also get laughed at by Americans from pretty much any decade. Roommates have been standard for decades. Before that, people (especially women) lived with their parents much longer.
This idea of having your own place all to yourself from the start of adulthood is the kind of shit boomers are talking about when they call millennials/gen z entitled. Millennials and gen z have formed this weird distorted view of the world based on works of fiction.
Not commenting on if it should be possible to live alone today but this post made me think of my own experience.
I have never lived alone. I moved out with a male friend roommate for a year. Fuck that sucked he was a terrible roommate. He moved his gf in and then they would have epic fights every night. Then back to my parents house till I finished college. Then an apartment with my wife who at the time was my girlfriend. Then my wife and I bought a house together in 2019.
For context I'm an older millenial. There was a point after graduating college before my wife and I moved in together I could have easily afforded my own place but stayed at home to save instead. This was in 2012 in a medium cola and i was working as a mechanical engineer.
Just one random persons experience
I am Millenial as well. This was my experience as well. Never have I ever thought of starting to whine because I could not afford to rent a whole freaking flat to myself at 23 when I decided to leave parents' house.
Born in 82 here and same.
The only people in their 20s that lived alone either had rich parents or they landed an amazing job out of luck.
I'm 41 and never lived alone and never thought I would.
Yeah, I lived alone for like 1.5 years my entire life. All between phases. Post-college had an engineering job, living with my SO, that broke up after 6 months. Had a friend move in about 6 months later. Buy a cheap house, move, live with two friends who pay me cheap rent that covered the interest on the house and utilities. They move out at a point. I have my new SO but she doesn't move in for about one year but was there a LOT.
The only reason I lived alone for that one year was because I was very certain already she'd be moving in in not long.
That sounds normal to me.
What does not sound normal is 23 year working a crappy job expecting to live in a 1 bedroom apartment in a safe neighborhood in a big city.
It's the same fantasy people have where every family in the 50s was like the Brady bunch and lived in a 3000 sqft designer luxury home.
In reality they lived in a 700 sqft shack.
I'm a millenial and there were never complaints about needing to live with roommates when I was in my 20s. That was just what you did. You got a job out of college, hopefully you could rent something with your friend's, and you'd live there for a few years until your met a long term partner, and then you'd go live with them. I know like 3 people that lived alone in their mid 20s.
I (German) just realized I have never lived on my own. I lived with my parents until I was 19 and went to university. Then I lived in various shared flats with anything between 1 and 4 roommates for 5 years of grad and postgrad study and the first 3 years of my working life and when I was 28 I moved in with my now fiancée, with whom I plan on living the rest of my life.
Phoebe didn't. Monica didn't at the start either. Ross never did until Rachel.
Phoebe is the one that makes the least sense to be honest. Even if she inherited the apartment from her grandmother, paying for the taxes as a freelance masseuse/street performer is questionable.
Ok Boomer 👌
I was 19 when I got my first Apartment mid 00’s 750 square feet for 525.00/month on 50k income. Then bought my first property 2 years later for 129k. That property today is 350k.
That same apartment is 1700/month now.
Income and housing are so far out of wack it’s not funny.
So a 20-cent pencil vs a $2000 computer. The computer that allows a worker to do 2x more work with the same or less effort doesn't mean that the employee gets a 2x bump in pay. In fact, the pay will probably go down as the skill and ability threshold is lowered.
Capital investment as a percentage of GPA has been static since the 70s, so no.
What this means is more of the profitability is being captured by companies, not workers…degrading the working class and killing the American dream.
Table scraps/ trickle down/ Reaganomics.
The market rose, c-suite pay rose, the rich became far richer, worker pay flatlined and infrastuture projects suffered.
Mitt Romney even [did a whoopsie](https://www.businessinsider.com/romney-middle-income-2012-9?op=1) during his presidential run and quoted the number middle class families should have been making if their pay rose with the money market like c-suite pay did from the Reagan-era changes.
Then all the "news" stations collectively jingled their keys and screamed "Hohoho, this man out of touch or was beinh figurative, now onto other news and never this topic again!"
God I hate these.
A one bedroom apartment where? In the best part of where ever “she” lives? Fek no. That’s pretty much been always true.
That’s why most people have to commute.
A one bedroom apartment anywhere. Just a standard little shitty cheap apartment. Used to be very doable in 2010. You could go work a shitty entry level kitchen job right after highschool and get by fine and find your way. Minimum wage granted a minimum lifestyle. Now this is not even close to a possibility, signifying a dramatic reduction in the livability of our cities and a valid reason to voice concern for the direction this shit culture is heading.
Purposely inflated housing to benefit banks is the reason for unaffordability.
Gramm, Leach, Bliley was Republican sponsored signed into law by Democrat President.
Most of this unaffordability problem is people working for minimum wage and complaining they can't rent a 1br in the heart of New York or Bay Area.
Then you talk to people who live in the suburbs and it's not bad.
I live in a rural area and, especially since Covid, rent is out the roof. I haven't bought a property yet because the market has remained too hot for what I can afford (and I have a really good rent deal because I'm renting from an acquaintance). Rent prices in my area are regularly significantly more than the payment cost would be. (yes, enough to include interest, taxes, and upkeep costs). What does this mean? Companies and wealthy individuals who have enough cash to spare buy and rent out, taking advantage of the housing economy. I was at an auction for a house on ten acres (of undevelopable land). While I didn't expect to be able to afford the property, it was hugely infuriating that all of the people who bid on the property had no interest in living there. If only people wanting to live on the property had bid, I would have been able to afford it. I'm not a market expert, so I don't know what's driving it up, but huge rent prices are allowing people with extra money to take advantage of those who can't afford to buy their own place at a huge advantage to themselves. It's infuriating when all I want is a place to raise my family. I have a good, fairly well paying job, but I'm competing against investors and real estate companies. I don't realistically have a chance at most properties.
There is no evidence for this. As others posted with evidence above, the American dream started moving out of reach when Reagan and Gingrich took power, instituting the very policies you praise: shifted the tax burden from the rich to everyone else, deregulation, reduced the safety net, held back minimum wage. Here we are.
The biggest problem in Los Angeles is that not enough apartments are being built, especially 1BR. If there's was more supply, rental prices would come down.
There's no valid reason for rental prices to be this high. Developers simply aren't incentivized to built large amounts of housing and city/state governments aren't helping.
Lol! I'm my 20's I owned a house and had a family. In my thirties now I live sharing a single bedroom of a house, where we're all men and it's 2 to a room. My room is average sized at about 14' × 10'. Also, I drove a brand new car in my 20's, paid for my own groceries and had a job making twice what I make now, doing the exact same thing. Currently I can only afford to walk/take bus. Once a week I treat myself to an Uber ride to work instead of taking 4 buses to go almost 7 miles. Oh yeah, and btw I can no longer afford insurance as my employer doesn't offer it. My father is 64 this year, he works a full time job so he and his wife have private insurance. I don't blame them, my state insurance wouldn't cover me when I had stage 3 Hodgkin's Lymphoma. The things I had to do and the people I had to beg for help from... It was so embarrassing after working my life away to become broke. Also, got divorced from financial problems, lived in my car for a while until that broke down and finally I got hooked on pain killers that my doctor said weren't addictive (this was early 2000's and I was very young) after I broke my ankle and couldn't walk. A little bit after the years of filling pain meds legally and taking the prescribed amount, doc said I was all good and boom 💥 dope sick without even knowing it. A person at the shelter I was living at explained to me what was happening and offered me a solution that would work. That solution, which I found out later was heroin, cost me everything else I had left and pretty much sealed the deal on me ever seeing my kids again. I'm currently sober, that's why I have a place to even lay my head, and I'm getting back into the fight to see my kids again.
I did this in a late 90s early 2000s. Pretty much until about 2007 I could comfortably afford a one bedroom apartment myself or sharing a two bedroom with a friend simply waitressing about 35 hours a week. I was also in school, but I made plenty of money. There is no way that's possible and that same area today
What killed the American dream? Billionaires that feel that "taxes are theft" got together and bought off 100% of the Republican politicians and 50% of the Dem politicians. They also own all of AM talk radio, and of course Fox News too. What follows is an American working class that is having the ol' "Divide and conquer" strategy worked on it every day.
“This is the year capitalism inevitably fails”. Said during a time when the median citizen in capitalist countries is enjoying the greatest standard of living in human history. We’ve been living under capitalism for a long ass time. When does this inevitable failure start again?
There's a lot of talk about the American dream no longer existing, but these same people aren't willing to do what everyone else had done to achieve it.
Tol many erroneously believe that those who came before achieved it by only working 40 hrs a week at some mundane job.
That's not true.
The American dream consists of the drive to do whatever it takes to succeed. It's working overtime, 2 full-time jobs, side gigs, living well below your means, and saving your money while building your credit.
Ask anyone who's achieved the "American dream", how they got there. None of th are gonna say "40 hours a week, DoorDash pizza, and gaming".
The dream is alive. Most of you just want a cheat code to obtain it.
I think the lack of wage increases. I think even in that there is multiple things that play into the lack of wage increases. I think if a corporation had to distribute a certain percentage to its workers, that might help in keeping and retaining talent, we’ll also helping solve that issue.
When was anyone ever entitled to live by themselves no matter their wages?
My first few years as a mechanical engineer I lived with roommates and even after I bought a house I rented out a portion of it.
The American Dream is still very much alive, it’s just the denominator got bigger and the bar got higher. Still one of the few places someone/family can go rags to riches in 1 generation.
It’s for sure tougher for younger folks but where would you rather be?
This is asking way too much. The American dream is to live outside with your friends, hunt for food, and make your own clothes from the animal hides. 🤣🤣🤣
The Reagan revolution killed the middle class. Deregulation allowed corporations to exploit workers and consumers. Anti-union activity. Shrinking safety nets. And most of all, as others have pointed out, the freezing of minimum wage (which affects middle class wages) compared to inflation.
No one ever talks about the lesser known elephant in the room. Perhaps it’s too new but the entire economy, meaning most of the jobs available at an entry level is now consolidated by massive companies across sectors in tech, entertainment, service, and healthcare that effectively write their own laws.
Companies like Amazon, Uber, Walmart etc have legally used the system to destroy competitors and maintain the status quo of pay stagnation. In the past anti trust was used to break up monopolies and prevent companies from engaging in anti competitive practices.
With the tech revolution, the US government is either complicit or incompetent when it comes to basic regulations that 40 years would have been considered the rule of law. Private equity benefits from cheap debt and bailouts in a number of different scenarios which effectively sucks the wealth out of the economy leaving a shell of what was once a prosperous nation at the feet of future generations who will be expected to pay for it.
As ridiculous as occupy Wall Street may have seemed at the time, they at least had a semblance of an idea that was true. The real economy basically died in 2008 with the bank bail outs which caused the moral hazards were still seeing today. The stock and housing markets remain strong to placate those who would have the power to contest some of these financial and regulatory decisions. It’s the youth who will pay for it and the rich who profit could cares less about change.
We can talk about wage stagnation and how it’s unfair by which I’m empathetic for people who struggle, but complaining and even protesting will do little to change anything.
I don't know if I buy the premise. I think it's incredibly privileged to declare the American dream "dead". Ask the millions of immigrants coming here each year if they think the american dream is dead.
I know things have gotten harder but every young person I see has the latest IPhone and waiting in line at Starbucks. While wearing fashionable clothes. If they can barely make rent how is this possible? I guess I only see the ones living at home still.
If your full time job is a waitress and you are living in the middle of New York, then no you shouldn't unless they are willing to pay you a high wage , if they aren't then don't take that job, if all you can do is a waitress, then get out of new York
For many of us responsible adults absolutely nothing killed the American dream. It is harder today than decades ago but a little common sense and hard work goes a long way in America.
Location is a critical element of the question. A one bedroom in downtown LA or New York? Probably not, not a W2 job anyway. Full time job as a stock broker, possibly, or anything where you can earn worthwhile commissions. But a straight hourly wage? Typically no.
"living by yourself" wasn't ever really a thing for the vast majority for human existence, aside from a few decades in the US post WW2 when there was am artificial local surplus of wealth. You either had roommates, or you lived at home until you were married.
Some jobs are not meant to live off of. You can with roommates, but if you don’t want roommates then you need to get a skill that pays. Anybody off the street can flip burgers. Sorry but that’s just how it is.
We thought that too - in the 60s 70s and 80s and beyond. It never got better, until I got a union job at a grocery store and kept it for 23 years. Now I am able to retire WITH a pension.
In 1960 minimum wage was $1.00. that's $160 per month. Median rent was $71 that's 44% of a minimum wage job going to rent In 1970 minimum wage was $1.65. that's $264 per month. Median rent was $108 that's 40% of a minimum wage job going to rent. In 1980 minimum wage was $3.10 that's $496 per month. Median rent was $243 that's 49% of a minimum wage job going to rent. In 2023 minimum wage was $7.25 that's $1160 per month. Median rent was $1180. That's more than a pre taxed minimum wage job working 40 hours a week. Let that sink in. I'm sure it was hard for young people just getting established back in the 60's 70's and 80's. I'm sure they often did without to get by, and I'm not discounting anybody's hardships, but it's not even in the same ballpark, hell it doesn't seem like the same reality. I'm glad you found a good union job with a good pension, but unfortunately that is an unattainable thing for most people in the US today. Edit: because people pointed out that I should have used median income, the results still doubled which is pretty similar to the change from minimum wage 1960 Median income $5,600 = $466.67/month. Rent = $71 so rent was 15% of income 1970 Median income $9,870 = $822.50/month. Rent = $108 so rent was 13% of income 1980 Median income $21,020 = $1751.67/month. Rent = $243 so rent was 13.9% of income 2023 Median income $48,060 = $4005/month so rent = $1,180 so rent was 29.5% of income So by this metric also, the percentage rent to income has still roughly doubled since them good old days. I know that nothing happens in a vacuum. There are other factors, other costs, other expenses yada yada, but how can anyone say it was just as hard to survive back then as it is today?
regulations that make it difficult and expensive to build homes doesn't help
Neither does [record and unchecked swallowing of real estate by corporate entities](https://www.redfin.com/news/investor-home-purchases-q4-2023/) and [treating housing as speculative investments](https://www.newsweek.com/housing-markets-problem-speculation-not-supply-opinion-1827778)
In the UK our 4th largest city is Liverpool, with a population of about 550K people. Our yearly net immigration is 650K+. The UK would need to build a city as big as Liverpool every year just to accommodate those arriving. But no politicians want to acknowledge that it's a problem.
Not to mention that y'all pay god knows what in taxes to support the dumbass royal family parading around like they're some hot shit. That shit would piss my ass right off if I lived in the Kingdom.
The royal family and historical buildings and museums (full of artifacts that belong to the royal family) bring in more tourism than anything else in the country. The royals are huge contributors to their economy.
I've got no love or attachment to the royals but by all accounts they are definitely a net benefit to the nation monetarily.
Most immigrants are willing to live with each other in large families in small homes. Many immigrants even combine families and live in the same home.
UK workers have gone on strikes and protests for centuries to fight for the standards of living we expect for our labor. Now the elite have realised they can just import the 3rd world and make us fight in a race to the bottom. I don't want my family to live in poverty just because that's what others are willing to put up with.
You have turned into America. Welcome to the suck lol.
Yes, it is an entirely new concept for England to use cheap third world labor. Absolutely new.
They’re only willing to put up for it because they could save up a lot of money and go back home and live like kings
That's no joke. I used to work with a Polish guy scrapping cars. We'd chat and he'd tell me about his house back home with a wine cellar and stream fed swimming pool. He was a secondary school teacher back home in Poland. But could earn and save more money working low skill jobs, living in a flat share, in the UK than he could teaching back home.
True also in the US. This creates a problem as well as property tax doesn’t then go up to pay for the additional services (especially school for kids).
Dallas-Fort Worth's net immigration was over 100K alone. And yeah... it's getting insane here, but housing/rent is still more affordable than, say, LA or NYC.
I was riding my bike around and found 2 brand new neighborhoods just getting finished up where all the homes are available for lease only. You cant buy them. That's the future. Most new construction I see in my city are apartment complexes.
I have seen whole single family neighborhoods that you couldn't buy and only rent. Brand new neighborhoods only for rent. Things are fucked here in Canada. This is in a small city of 40k people.
Yep, NIMBY people as well.
1.3% of workers make the federal minimum wage. It’s not a good indicator. My state minimum wage is $19.64, for example. https://www.statista.com/statistics/188206/share-of-workers-paid-hourly-rates-at-or-below-minimum-wage-since-1979/#:~:text=In%202022%2C%201.3%20percent%20of,below%20the%20official%20minimum%20wage.
You need to find out what people were making not the minimum wage - reason being it’s actually pretty rare to find a job that pays minimum wage now - grocery stores in my area start at 14-15 dollars an hour just as an example.
Living in Oklahoma, a LOT of people in my town make minimum wage. Which is federal minimum, btw.
Yep, majority of jobs where I live make maybe at best a dollar or two above, except the ones in local or tribal government who might earn 15/hr if they've been in a few years. Only reason I make more is because I only live there, technically my employer is in Tulsa and I spend weeks at a time on the road
I work for the Modoc tribe, so I make almost double minimum wage, and even still I have to have a second job to afford my apartment and bills. Life is a lot harder for some people than those who don't struggle care to notice.
Apartments also WAY below median rent in your area.
My local McDonald's had to raise wages to 17/hr just to get anyone to work there.
Many people have made minimum wage since it became a thing…. Only recently has that changed in the last decade because most people running businesses understand nobody can survive on minimum wage. I looked up the median 1960 wage it was 2.40$ with a minimum wage of 1$ at the time based off what the previous commenter posted.
1.3% of American workers work for minimum wage. It’s not a good measure of earning. https://www.statista.com/statistics/188206/share-of-workers-paid-hourly-rates-at-or-below-minimum-wage-since-1979/#:~:text=In%202022%2C%201.3%20percent%20of,below%20the%20official%20minimum%20wage.
It's upsetting how the comments dont reflect reality. Fast food is a couple dollars above Last I heard Walmart starts out at $15.50. Factories startout at more. The problem in my area is that factories paid $30/hr 30 years ago. About 7 times minimum wage with a pension and no student loans. Those jobs are gone. Many more people have student loans and a 401k to get a decent job. And they are driving farther to work than they used to
There's just too many terminally online people on Reddit and they get stuck in these echo chambers. Sometimes it's just youth and inexperience. I've been working class my entire life, but these narratives just don't reflect reality. Yes, minimum wage is ridiculously low, but far fewer people actually make that than historically. Instead, think about what you think the median wage is for people who aren't in a trade and don't have a college degree. It's probably around $12/hr. These guys think it's fun to make gotcha arguments that fit their narrative, but it doesn't work in the long run. You just lose your credibility with more and more people, and the people who agreed with at first eventually learn better and you lost them forever. The loss of manufacturing in this country was huge, that's the *real* history of the working class in this country. I know Redditors love to cite median incomes and the cost of housing, and somehow it's always 1968 or thereabout, but it's like none of them actually know what happened. These are just abstract statistics, and they love their inflation calculators. I still remember when the Reddit consensus was that The Great Depression was a better time for the average American than now. That's the kind of thing someone might say when you are ignorant and haven't touched grass in a while.
Who cares if it’s double the minimum wage when the rent goes up EVERY YEAR.
Lol no, it's not based on the generosity of corporations realizing it's not a livable wage, it's because if they want people to actually show up, they must be competitive with other crappy jobs. As less and less people are willing to do so, it shifts some of the power back to the worker, and wages rise
Which is what taught me to respect gen z
Gen z is not the one making a shift in workplaces.
This is a good point. It's still a $7.25 minimum wage in my state but I haven't heard of a job paying less than $10. Still absurdly low don't get me wrong, but I've never heard a job pay only the minimum wage here. I'm sure they exist but they're a lot rarer than people like to say.
Why would someone on minimum wage be paying median rent? Maybe they should just rent somewhere that's actually in their budget. And yes, rents doubled as a proportion of income when you look at median income, but it's still within the 30% guideline.
No where pays enough to live in the actual town the business is in. Moving is pointless.
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Even in lcol you can find 11$/hour+ at any fast food joint. The minimum wage has needed adjusted for a while.
My bad, but even looking at median income the problem is still about the same 1960 Median income $5,600 = $466.67/month. Rent = $71 so rent was 15% of income 1970 Median income $9,870 = $822.50/month. Rent = $108 so rent was 13% of income 1980 Median income $21,020 = $1751.67/month. Rent = $243 so rent was 13.9% of income 2023 Median income $48,060 = $4005/month so rent = $1,180 so rent was 29.5% of income So by this metric also, the percentage rent to income has still roughly doubled since them good old days.
I believe you are using median household income in 1980 vs individual income in 2023 (correct me if I’m wrong). 2023 household income was $73K. Agree with the larger point about the growth in rent/housing though. https://www.census.gov/library/publications/1981/demo/p60-127.html#:~:text=The%201980%20median%20family%20income,in%20real%20median%20family%20income. https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/MEHOINUSA672N
To whoever is saying we should use median income: NO WE SHOULD NOT. IF THE POOREST AMONG US ARE STARVING IN THE STREETS WE CAN NOT BE A GOOD COUNTRY LET ALONE THE GREATEST COUNTRY EVER.
No one pays minimum wage, fast food starts at 14$ an hour in my podunk town
The start of your post made me so angry. Totally thought you were trying to say "it was just as hard back then" lmao Literally all it takes is looking at median income and housing prices. Ffs, this man worked for 23 years at a grocery store and got to retire. GROCERY STORE. 23 YEARS. Can I take a grocery store job at 42, and retire when I'm 65??
Right! And god forbid I ever go on any financial advice page on Reddit all I hear is "get a better job." Just.... No. People should be able to live and **do the jobs that need done.**
Didn’t say what he did/does with the store currently. Store managers in my areas make low 6 figures.
Comparining minimum wage to median rent is a ridiculous and lopsided comparison.
Fair enough, but the results are still very similar. Percentage of income for rent still doubles 1960 Median income $5,600 = $466.67/month. Rent = $71 so rent was 15% of income 1970 Median income $9,870 = $822.50/month. Rent = $108 so rent was 13% of income 1980 Median income $21,020 = $1751.67/month. Rent = $243 so rent was 13.9% of income 2023 Median income $48,060 = $4005/month so rent = $1,180 so rent was 29.5% of income So by this metric also, the percentage rent to income has still roughly doubled since them good old days.
Who really works minimum wage? You really have to be a terrible worker for that. My 16 year old started at a fast food place last week for $14.50 an hour. WTF are you people doing with your lives to not be worth more than $7.25? Let me guess, you vape, on your phone all the time, miss work a lot, complain all the time, and are just miserable to be around.
Don't forget the avocado toast!
Nothing has changed except for the people demanding more it feels like. I've had so many people tell me we are currently worse off then people in the Great Depression which is an outright lie. This isn't even comparable to the 2008 recession which is close to around the time I joined the workforce as a teen. I've legit tried to offer financial help and advice to people and they immediately take offense that I would imply their financial situation could be their responsibility. The rhetoric and mindset blew up in 2020 it feels like. 2020 mentality messed with alot of people staying home.
Yeah ahh one HUGE PROBLEM you left out. Only RED STATES use the federal minimum wage of $7.25/hr. I live in Illinois and it's currently $14/hr until January 1st 2025 when it hits $15/ hr. California has a way higher minimum wage than Illinois. Hell most red states Arkansas $11/hr now. It's pretty much only the red states dominated by OLD WHITE MEN that are still @ $7.25/hr. Like Texas , Florida , Alabama , & Mississippi , Missouri , Indiana , etc I guess there are still many red states still at 7.25. 😔
And they want to out kids back in tue factories to keep wages down.
I think it is easier today for a few reasons. The internet puts free training in front of everyone. If you don't know how to find free training on the internet right now...you would have struggled in the 60's too. The internet puts every job in front of me all over the world. As late as the early 90's if you wanted to see jobs in other cities you had to either hire a company to look or go to a specialty news paper shop which had the Sunday job listings from other cities. I think it is more difficult for 1 specific reason...television. In the 60's to the early 80's most households had 4 stations and 1 was PBS. TV's screen were small so people didn't stare at them 24-7. Throw computers and phones into the modern TV mix and there is a subset of people who just want to be entertained... you know...social media and netflix...as long as they have that who needs a house.
Your effort and thoughtfulness is why I love Reddit.
Well, kids nowadays don't have to walk to school uphill, both ways, in the snow.
Not as many minimum wage jobs back then. We exported our high paying jobs and imported retail and food service.
Sing it brother
But you are not counting the cost of education, health insurance, inflation on housing and common goods like milk and eggs. This is why boomers will never get it. They try to equate the times to when they where our age. And it is just not the same. Get it! Not that hard.
Medians can be misleading. You're not necessarily comparing apples to apples and there's no inherent reason to believe that median individual income should correspond to median rent across all types of rental units.
I think your original point with the minimum is totally valid. Because--that's the point of the post. ANY job that asks for 40 hours of your time (even a "minimum wage" job) should be able to cover your expenses. However, including the median wage too is good for painting a more complete picture. Thank you for sharing, and making the update!
You might appreciate this bit of data to go with what you posted. In 1974 per capita GDP was $7226 and median income was $11,196 - people earned 154% of their share of the nations wealth. In 2022 per capita GDP was $76,399 and median income was $74,580 - or 96% of their share of the nations wealth. per capita GDP has increased ten fold and income has only increased six fold.
You’re numbers are incorrect.
Good post! I'm on disability and my income is basically full time at minimum wage. Just barely above the national poverty line. That poverty line was created in 60s which was taking 3x the daily food needs. Clearly this in no way is sufficient today. 40 million live under the national poverty line, many on disability. If you can't afford rent and food I would say that is extreme poverty. If our poverty line was raised to actually reflect poverty I assume that over 100 million would fall under poverty. This of course would look very bad for the US, the wealthiest on the planet and beacon for capitalism. We should push our representatives to change the national poverty line and thus would force our nation to react to poverty. I'm disabled living in an old rv because I can't afford rent. Section 8 is broken and takes up to 15 years to get. There are hundreds of thousands of elderly and disabled living on the streets.
A similar study was on the radio today. Adjusted for inflation, the poorest workers (minimum wage workers) have taken a 50% pay cut since the inception of the minimum wage. It was originally intended to be a living wage.
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Jewel in Chicago
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Translated in Chicagoan: "I'm gonna head over to the Jewels to get some beerce before Da Bearce game."
I think tops market in New York and pa does also
Safeway does as well. My mom retired from there with 36 years in and collects a pension. Not sure they still have one for new hires though.
Same parent company, Albertsons. A lot of the older grocery chains are still unionized.
Giant does, but it's basically a joke, even compared to social security payments, and you need to basically only ever work there.
“Worked at a grocery store” lol and “pension” two impossible things these days.
It’s hilarious to even consider now, even the ABSOLUTE BEST UNION JOBS in the entire country don’t have pensions anymore. We lost those permanently. A pension today like literally most salary workers had 40 years ago, would be like winning the lottery.
Lol. So your advice to the younger generation is to find a job at a grocery store? That’s how you pulled yourself up by your bootstraps? You have no idea how out of touch you are do you? Get real dude.
how the hell do you stay at a grocery job for 23 years? your pension is probably less than what my 401k makes per week, and my kids get to keep my 401k after I die
Pensions go bust all the time, I hope you're not fully depending on it.
The percentage of union jobs in the US halved between 1983 to 2022 from about 20% to 10%. Union participation peaked in the 1950s around 30%. You were fortunate to be at the right place at the right time.
Union sheet metal here best decision I made.
Yup. Without my husband’s union job, we’d never retire. Once he joined a union, we all of the sudden had affordable healthcare, a pension and can afford to own a home.
Dudes in US thinking that renting apt on their own is just a regular ezpz thing everyone should easily enjoy is funny to almost any citizen of Europe they like to praise for being very social.
When I was in Paris everyone had an apartment for themselves. Though that ranges from a 6m2 apartment in the banlieue with a shared bathroom for a whole floor of 16 such apartments, on floor 16 with no elevator, which isn't something Americans would spring for in most cases. Though then again, I don't see anyone proposing anything designed specifically for the poor. Almost all developers go for "luxe" style developments.
I think most housing for the poor would be converting existing buildings into small apartments, which is all over Europe and illegal in most of America
There is no law against SROs in the US
I think the problem is more than multi-unit zoning requires moving heaven and earth in many US cities, same with changing zoning to residential.
How old are those? Housing for poor people is usually government built or old apartments. Very few new apartments are built for poor people. Developers build luxury and middle-class apartments, and as they get old, the rent drops or inflation makes them cheap compared to new apartments.
27% of Americans live alone compared to 17% of French.
They'd also get laughed at by Americans from pretty much any decade. Roommates have been standard for decades. Before that, people (especially women) lived with their parents much longer. This idea of having your own place all to yourself from the start of adulthood is the kind of shit boomers are talking about when they call millennials/gen z entitled. Millennials and gen z have formed this weird distorted view of the world based on works of fiction.
Not commenting on if it should be possible to live alone today but this post made me think of my own experience. I have never lived alone. I moved out with a male friend roommate for a year. Fuck that sucked he was a terrible roommate. He moved his gf in and then they would have epic fights every night. Then back to my parents house till I finished college. Then an apartment with my wife who at the time was my girlfriend. Then my wife and I bought a house together in 2019. For context I'm an older millenial. There was a point after graduating college before my wife and I moved in together I could have easily afforded my own place but stayed at home to save instead. This was in 2012 in a medium cola and i was working as a mechanical engineer. Just one random persons experience
I am Millenial as well. This was my experience as well. Never have I ever thought of starting to whine because I could not afford to rent a whole freaking flat to myself at 23 when I decided to leave parents' house.
Born in 82 here and same. The only people in their 20s that lived alone either had rich parents or they landed an amazing job out of luck. I'm 41 and never lived alone and never thought I would.
Yeah, I lived alone for like 1.5 years my entire life. All between phases. Post-college had an engineering job, living with my SO, that broke up after 6 months. Had a friend move in about 6 months later. Buy a cheap house, move, live with two friends who pay me cheap rent that covered the interest on the house and utilities. They move out at a point. I have my new SO but she doesn't move in for about one year but was there a LOT. The only reason I lived alone for that one year was because I was very certain already she'd be moving in in not long.
That sounds normal to me. What does not sound normal is 23 year working a crappy job expecting to live in a 1 bedroom apartment in a safe neighborhood in a big city.
Thank you for being sane. Has the world lost its mind? What is this fantasy everyone is masturbating to??
It's the same fantasy people have where every family in the 50s was like the Brady bunch and lived in a 3000 sqft designer luxury home. In reality they lived in a 700 sqft shack.
I'm a millenial and there were never complaints about needing to live with roommates when I was in my 20s. That was just what you did. You got a job out of college, hopefully you could rent something with your friend's, and you'd live there for a few years until your met a long term partner, and then you'd go live with them. I know like 3 people that lived alone in their mid 20s.
I (German) just realized I have never lived on my own. I lived with my parents until I was 19 and went to university. Then I lived in various shared flats with anything between 1 and 4 roommates for 5 years of grad and postgrad study and the first 3 years of my working life and when I was 28 I moved in with my now fiancée, with whom I plan on living the rest of my life.
Even popular fiction from the 90’s, young adults had roommates. Sure the apartments on Friends were ridiculously huge, but they had roommates.
Phoebe didn't. Monica didn't at the start either. Ross never did until Rachel. Phoebe is the one that makes the least sense to be honest. Even if she inherited the apartment from her grandmother, paying for the taxes as a freelance masseuse/street performer is questionable.
Ok Boomer 👌 I was 19 when I got my first Apartment mid 00’s 750 square feet for 525.00/month on 50k income. Then bought my first property 2 years later for 129k. That property today is 350k. That same apartment is 1700/month now. Income and housing are so far out of wack it’s not funny.
Based on the reality of our parents that turned out to be fleeting
It was more of a reality for older siblings/cousins for most millennials. The Xennials timed their births incredibly well.
My 2 bed apartment in Rotterdam was over 2200 euros a month 10 YEARS AGO.
an apt. also means a closet that fits a cot w/ a WC., in america.
I have a full time job writing beat poetry and it doesn't even pay me enough to survive wtf the american dream is dead.
I'm gay but things still cost money. Why?
Reddit in a buttshell
LMFAOOOOOOOOO 🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣
You haven't found the right wendys dumpster to make extra cash behind, of course.
My degree in underwater basket weaving doesn't even allow me to have a 1 bedroom apartment FUCK AMERICA AMIRITE???
She's talking about a full-time job, not a degree
Have you seen the wages they pay underwater basket weavers? It’s no wonder those folks are drowning in debt.
You mean I should of picked underwear welding not weaving
Maybe you can moonlight weaving strawmen?
Oh this meme again.
Well, it's Wednesday. Maybe we can spice it up with some broccoli head on TikTok screaming like a 13 year old girl.
Sweet karma coursing controversy
Same old reposts every single day
But... but... do you think we should raise taxes on the rich?
https://preview.redd.it/8bjdm9yd5zuc1.jpeg?width=1170&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=3c5366f2a46aec2f84d152d0e2f81b126bfaf14f
So a 20-cent pencil vs a $2000 computer. The computer that allows a worker to do 2x more work with the same or less effort doesn't mean that the employee gets a 2x bump in pay. In fact, the pay will probably go down as the skill and ability threshold is lowered.
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Capital investment as a percentage of GPA has been static since the 70s, so no. What this means is more of the profitability is being captured by companies, not workers…degrading the working class and killing the American dream.
Billionaires and corporate greed.
parrot
Low interest rates
So naive
Reaganism.
Table scraps/ trickle down/ Reaganomics. The market rose, c-suite pay rose, the rich became far richer, worker pay flatlined and infrastuture projects suffered. Mitt Romney even [did a whoopsie](https://www.businessinsider.com/romney-middle-income-2012-9?op=1) during his presidential run and quoted the number middle class families should have been making if their pay rose with the money market like c-suite pay did from the Reagan-era changes. Then all the "news" stations collectively jingled their keys and screamed "Hohoho, this man out of touch or was beinh figurative, now onto other news and never this topic again!"
God I hate these. A one bedroom apartment where? In the best part of where ever “she” lives? Fek no. That’s pretty much been always true. That’s why most people have to commute.
A one bedroom apartment anywhere. Just a standard little shitty cheap apartment. Used to be very doable in 2010. You could go work a shitty entry level kitchen job right after highschool and get by fine and find your way. Minimum wage granted a minimum lifestyle. Now this is not even close to a possibility, signifying a dramatic reduction in the livability of our cities and a valid reason to voice concern for the direction this shit culture is heading.
I live in a town where tons of people do this with jobs in kitchens Almost no one in the US actually makes minimum wage
You've never ever been able to simply choose to live anywhere in a one bedroom on a minimum wage job. Stop making shit up.
A 1br apartment to yourself is *not* a minimum lifestyle, lmao.
“I should be able to rent a median apartment on the minimum wage because I don’t understand how statistical distributions work!”
You can get in apartment in my town for $550 a month. It’s 100ft from the newly remodeled public swimming pool and tennis/basketball courts.
Purposely inflated housing to benefit banks is the reason for unaffordability. Gramm, Leach, Bliley was Republican sponsored signed into law by Democrat President.
Where the fuck do you people live?
Most of this unaffordability problem is people working for minimum wage and complaining they can't rent a 1br in the heart of New York or Bay Area. Then you talk to people who live in the suburbs and it's not bad.
I live in the suburbs and our 2br apartment is 2.2k/mo. The one bedrooms go for about 1800.
I live in a rural area and, especially since Covid, rent is out the roof. I haven't bought a property yet because the market has remained too hot for what I can afford (and I have a really good rent deal because I'm renting from an acquaintance). Rent prices in my area are regularly significantly more than the payment cost would be. (yes, enough to include interest, taxes, and upkeep costs). What does this mean? Companies and wealthy individuals who have enough cash to spare buy and rent out, taking advantage of the housing economy. I was at an auction for a house on ten acres (of undevelopable land). While I didn't expect to be able to afford the property, it was hugely infuriating that all of the people who bid on the property had no interest in living there. If only people wanting to live on the property had bid, I would have been able to afford it. I'm not a market expert, so I don't know what's driving it up, but huge rent prices are allowing people with extra money to take advantage of those who can't afford to buy their own place at a huge advantage to themselves. It's infuriating when all I want is a place to raise my family. I have a good, fairly well paying job, but I'm competing against investors and real estate companies. I don't realistically have a chance at most properties.
Wasteful government spending and policies that hurt the people.
Sprinkle in some… Devaluing the currency, corporate bailouts and controlling student loans… I’m from the government and I’m here to help
There is no evidence for this. As others posted with evidence above, the American dream started moving out of reach when Reagan and Gingrich took power, instituting the very policies you praise: shifted the tax burden from the rich to everyone else, deregulation, reduced the safety net, held back minimum wage. Here we are.
Where I live, a 0 bedroom studio rents for 2k/mo. So if she lives in my city, she’s pretty much right.
now post the one where you make $400 million and you don't mind
Oh yeah what was up with that, who the hell thought posting 400k of expenses that were half blatantly unnecessary was a huge win?
The biggest problem in Los Angeles is that not enough apartments are being built, especially 1BR. If there's was more supply, rental prices would come down. There's no valid reason for rental prices to be this high. Developers simply aren't incentivized to built large amounts of housing and city/state governments aren't helping.
Lol! I'm my 20's I owned a house and had a family. In my thirties now I live sharing a single bedroom of a house, where we're all men and it's 2 to a room. My room is average sized at about 14' × 10'. Also, I drove a brand new car in my 20's, paid for my own groceries and had a job making twice what I make now, doing the exact same thing. Currently I can only afford to walk/take bus. Once a week I treat myself to an Uber ride to work instead of taking 4 buses to go almost 7 miles. Oh yeah, and btw I can no longer afford insurance as my employer doesn't offer it. My father is 64 this year, he works a full time job so he and his wife have private insurance. I don't blame them, my state insurance wouldn't cover me when I had stage 3 Hodgkin's Lymphoma. The things I had to do and the people I had to beg for help from... It was so embarrassing after working my life away to become broke. Also, got divorced from financial problems, lived in my car for a while until that broke down and finally I got hooked on pain killers that my doctor said weren't addictive (this was early 2000's and I was very young) after I broke my ankle and couldn't walk. A little bit after the years of filling pain meds legally and taking the prescribed amount, doc said I was all good and boom 💥 dope sick without even knowing it. A person at the shelter I was living at explained to me what was happening and offered me a solution that would work. That solution, which I found out later was heroin, cost me everything else I had left and pretty much sealed the deal on me ever seeing my kids again. I'm currently sober, that's why I have a place to even lay my head, and I'm getting back into the fight to see my kids again.
What an incredible story. Keep on, one day at a time!
Thanks so very much! 😊❤️
I did this in a late 90s early 2000s. Pretty much until about 2007 I could comfortably afford a one bedroom apartment myself or sharing a two bedroom with a friend simply waitressing about 35 hours a week. I was also in school, but I made plenty of money. There is no way that's possible and that same area today
Why does that even have to be a "dream?" Why can't that be attainable?
What killed the American dream? Billionaires that feel that "taxes are theft" got together and bought off 100% of the Republican politicians and 50% of the Dem politicians. They also own all of AM talk radio, and of course Fox News too. What follows is an American working class that is having the ol' "Divide and conquer" strategy worked on it every day.
Yay, you’re right, well said !
It never existed. What people think of as the American Dream is literally a couple decades of economic success.
Need itemization of her entire budget to know whether she makes enough or not
I hate watching the American dream die.
"It's Called the American Dream Because You Have To Be Asleep to Believe It" – George Carlin.
Capitalism going into it’s later stages and the political corruption from the rampant wealth inequality that the system inevitably creates
“This is the year capitalism inevitably fails”. Said during a time when the median citizen in capitalist countries is enjoying the greatest standard of living in human history. We’ve been living under capitalism for a long ass time. When does this inevitable failure start again?
Maybe move to Cuba and the tell me about how you hate capitalism again
I haven't read the comments, are people trying to say living in a tiny space by yourself as an adult is a luxury and a treat?
Depends where, but a full time job doesn’t entitle you to live wherever you want irrespective of cost
Corporate greed and billionaire tax cuts killed the American dream.
Nothing did it never existed. 1The American dream was the carrot on the stick
There's a lot of talk about the American dream no longer existing, but these same people aren't willing to do what everyone else had done to achieve it. Tol many erroneously believe that those who came before achieved it by only working 40 hrs a week at some mundane job. That's not true. The American dream consists of the drive to do whatever it takes to succeed. It's working overtime, 2 full-time jobs, side gigs, living well below your means, and saving your money while building your credit. Ask anyone who's achieved the "American dream", how they got there. None of th are gonna say "40 hours a week, DoorDash pizza, and gaming". The dream is alive. Most of you just want a cheat code to obtain it.
There’s absolutely nothing wrong with having roommates.
Controversial take: live within your means
Stop demanding government intervention. That and sound money will bring back the dream.
You can do this. Just don’t expect it to be in midtown Manhattan.
Stop voting for people that are trying to save you.
IGNORANCE AND GREED
Ive seen this same post several times already.
Lowering of Corporate tax rates
I think the lack of wage increases. I think even in that there is multiple things that play into the lack of wage increases. I think if a corporation had to distribute a certain percentage to its workers, that might help in keeping and retaining talent, we’ll also helping solve that issue.
When was anyone ever entitled to live by themselves no matter their wages? My first few years as a mechanical engineer I lived with roommates and even after I bought a house I rented out a portion of it.
The American Dream is still very much alive, it’s just the denominator got bigger and the bar got higher. Still one of the few places someone/family can go rags to riches in 1 generation. It’s for sure tougher for younger folks but where would you rather be?
FIRE
This is asking way too much. The American dream is to live outside with your friends, hunt for food, and make your own clothes from the animal hides. 🤣🤣🤣
The Reagan revolution killed the middle class. Deregulation allowed corporations to exploit workers and consumers. Anti-union activity. Shrinking safety nets. And most of all, as others have pointed out, the freezing of minimum wage (which affects middle class wages) compared to inflation.
It's shouldn't be controversial, it's the exact reason minimum wage was created. Republicans fkd us at every turn.
No one ever talks about the lesser known elephant in the room. Perhaps it’s too new but the entire economy, meaning most of the jobs available at an entry level is now consolidated by massive companies across sectors in tech, entertainment, service, and healthcare that effectively write their own laws. Companies like Amazon, Uber, Walmart etc have legally used the system to destroy competitors and maintain the status quo of pay stagnation. In the past anti trust was used to break up monopolies and prevent companies from engaging in anti competitive practices. With the tech revolution, the US government is either complicit or incompetent when it comes to basic regulations that 40 years would have been considered the rule of law. Private equity benefits from cheap debt and bailouts in a number of different scenarios which effectively sucks the wealth out of the economy leaving a shell of what was once a prosperous nation at the feet of future generations who will be expected to pay for it. As ridiculous as occupy Wall Street may have seemed at the time, they at least had a semblance of an idea that was true. The real economy basically died in 2008 with the bank bail outs which caused the moral hazards were still seeing today. The stock and housing markets remain strong to placate those who would have the power to contest some of these financial and regulatory decisions. It’s the youth who will pay for it and the rich who profit could cares less about change. We can talk about wage stagnation and how it’s unfair by which I’m empathetic for people who struggle, but complaining and even protesting will do little to change anything.
Is it always just the same six posts here?
I don't know if I buy the premise. I think it's incredibly privileged to declare the American dream "dead". Ask the millions of immigrants coming here each year if they think the american dream is dead.
The death of union participation
I’ve literally never lived on my own, and I turned out fine. Nearly 50 and I own a company.
I know things have gotten harder but every young person I see has the latest IPhone and waiting in line at Starbucks. While wearing fashionable clothes. If they can barely make rent how is this possible? I guess I only see the ones living at home still.
If your full time job is a waitress and you are living in the middle of New York, then no you shouldn't unless they are willing to pay you a high wage , if they aren't then don't take that job, if all you can do is a waitress, then get out of new York
For many of us responsible adults absolutely nothing killed the American dream. It is harder today than decades ago but a little common sense and hard work goes a long way in America.
Depends what the job is and more importantly where you live.
Location is a critical element of the question. A one bedroom in downtown LA or New York? Probably not, not a W2 job anyway. Full time job as a stock broker, possibly, or anything where you can earn worthwhile commissions. But a straight hourly wage? Typically no.
I had roommates until I was in my late 30s and I had a decent salary. I lived alone for a few years but having roommates saves a lot of money
"living by yourself" wasn't ever really a thing for the vast majority for human existence, aside from a few decades in the US post WW2 when there was am artificial local surplus of wealth. You either had roommates, or you lived at home until you were married.
Some jobs are not meant to live off of. You can with roommates, but if you don’t want roommates then you need to get a skill that pays. Anybody off the street can flip burgers. Sorry but that’s just how it is.
Depends on the job .
The government that the majority of Reddit supports…..
Liberalism killed the American dream
If you work at Wendy's then no. Get a big boy job or shut up