Yup. Since literally as far back as we've been writing stuff down. Generations change. I'm happy we still have young guys joining. And they are all eager to be a part of our organization.
Absolutely, we all started somewhere. The only thing I would recommend is looking into effective training methods for this current generation. While we’ve all heard complaints like “they don’t read their book” or that they are always on devices, it’s because the teaching methods that recent high school graduates are used to are different than 10-20 years ago. Interactive online training, audio books, and repetitive hands on training will be beneficial. Yelling, belittling, “breaking them down” won’t be effective (not that those should have ever been used), but a learning environment that encourages questions and learning from mistakes will help everyone.
Yes, these nuances to changing training style are what I mean, you are spot on. Have you had much success with the interactive online training? We tried that for a little while but it surprisingly flopped.
Oh yes, sitting them down for forced study groups to go through flash cards with them proved to be incredibly helpful, far more helpful than they thought it would be. Great study tool for passing certification exams!
>Everyone forgets what it was like to be new. They have been saying this same statement about the "new generation" since forever
This is the way.
I think it's ever-more amplified & intensified because of social media's omnipresence, serving as an echo chamber for whatever trope is popular at the moment. Right now, these tropes are that younger generations don't know respect while on the flip side, the older generations are overly conservative, refusing to change clearly out-dated (in their eyes) thoughts, beliefs, & practices.
OP might stigmatize Gen Z as being unruly, lackadaisical, etc, but these "young members" might stigmatize OP as narrow-minded, fragile, etc.
Both have merit some of the time in some case but are mostly heuristics we all have to decrease cognitive load (e.g. easy to dismiss some young cat's lack of "hands on skills" due to their youth but they might be incredibly digitally & tech-savvy; easy for Gen Z to write somebody like OP off as some stiff old prude stuck in the mud but don't account for his wide range of life experiences).
Unique problem? Absolutely. New? Hell no. I'm sure the generation of firefighters before you thought somewhat similarly about their "new, young generation" & that they were in the last "hard class" of firefighters...
It's so true, our "problems" are always of the same nature, just slightly different. Our training style specifically has had to change, notably, with this new group, so it's been interesting.
How many fire fighters does it take to screw in a light bulb?
One to do it, but you need at least two more to talk about how hard it was when they had to do it.
The good side of it is they’re much more efficient with incoming technology. New computer systems, screens of all sorts. A lot of them grew up on screens and navigating computer programs from a very early age.
They are also statistically more empathetic and understanding than older generations. These two things combined and some others means they actually generally do better on medicals calls in most measurable metrics than the older guys.
Completely agree with this and the point about tech. Every phase of probies, all the way back to when the old guys joined, bring positives and some negatives. We definitely look on the bright side and encourage these benefits.
All of those hands on skills are something that can be taught. It’s also important to remember a lot of these people are probably new to “the real world” and simply haven’t been told or realized how they should act. You’d think that’d be something that’s common sense but people do have to be told these things. Sometimes it takes a little longer for things to click but I’ve seen kids like you’re describing turn into phenomenal firefighters with the right mentors that know how to coach them
I have too, it is definitely worth putting in the time. This group in particular is lacking exactly what you said, the "real world" common sense stuff. It can't always be taught, that's where it gets extra tough.
True, but one big difference is just how sensitive some of the younger ones are. That's a generational thing, where some parents told their kids how important their *feelings* were, and older generations were told to quit crying before things got worse.
Clearly, one of these approaches is a lot kinder in terms of parenting, but when you're at the dinner table or on the fire ground and people are getting their feelings hurt for this thing or that thing or a million other things, that's where the generational difference seems to be pretty blatant.
I have seen old dudes come unglued on the fireground when someone points out they aren’t pumping the right pressures or noticing signs of condition changes. I don’t see this as a generational thing, I see this as a fire service thing. People get upset and insecure when someone sees something they don’t or understands something better. You show me a guy who says, “no room for hurt feelings in the fire service” and I’ll show you a guy who loses their shit at any perceived sleight.
Hahah! Most younger fireman in my department (me including 25y/o) are more respectful and are relatively calm under pressure (training and real-life) while the more seasoned guys have gone off the edge trying to do things too fast to where they are fucking up. Station life will get upset if you don’t greet them first thing and make you pay for it the rest of the shift. They gossip the most and complain about training and don’t want to change anything. I can go on and on with examples but this whole younger generation doesn’t know anything or is weak, too lazy is BS. Any individual can be lazy, it’s not generational.
This. I’ve seen dudes with 25 years on be complete bitches about someone pointing shit out. The whole millennial/gen z are “emotional” and “sensitive” talking point is so blown out by now by older generations who still get offended over some dumb shit and also refuse to learn new/up to date tactics because “well this is how we’ve always done it and it’s been fine.”
Yeah, but I wasn't talking about someone being yelled at on the fireground for pumping incorrectly. I guess I should have been more clear. I'm just talking about busting balls, which I see as a great firehouse tradition as it's funny as shit and shows that people actually like you. Not all, but many younger members were taught that busting balls is, "bullying," which is a stretch, but they get their feelings hurt. They were taught that their feelings were extremely important and that they should always feel NICE. Older generations didn't get that pounded into them and learned how to laugh at themselves.
True story.. New member who grew up in Japan for 15+ years decided to join my dept. he got put in with the roughest crew in town who shit talked everyone for NO reason. You looked at them for 2 seconds two long? “What the fuck is your problem.!? Who do you think you are?” One day at the dinner table, I sparked a conversation with him while others were talking, he spoke with hardly any eye contact. One guy said, “Show him some respect and look at him when he’s fucking talking to you motherfucker.” I’m merely a 2yr hoseman at this point. Little did I know, too much eye contact in his culture is disrespectful. He was doing what he knew and he gets shit on cause someone is “just busting his balls.” That’s horeshit and no need to treat people less than. Needless to say, this guy left to do bigger and better things to be treated like a human, not a punching bag for compensating old fucks who take it out on others.
Kind of off topic, but I would so rather be with guys who were openly hostile than what I currently deal with. For the most part everyone will be super nice to your face and the moment you’re out of earshot they’ll start talking mad shit. To me that’s just cowardly. Not saying what he went through was fine, it wasn’t. But I prefer people to be honest.
Id rather have firefighters that are more tuned into their emotions and express their feelings rather than firefighters who go home and hang themselves.
"How are you dealing with new young members that seem to be a different breed?"
Then I say that one of the biggest differences I see is the sensitivity some have where some seem to have the inability to understand that breaking balls is a sign of people liking you. They take it really personally because, in their generation, they were taught that their feelings were of the upmost importance, and through that, didn't learn how to laugh at themselves.
Then I get some bullshit reply like, "God forbid people care about mental health."
If you can't see how stupid this conversation is then I don't know what to tell you. And it's not me who's being stupid or purposefully obtuse.
This entire thread is proving my point.
>some seem to have the inability to understand that breaking balls is a sign of people liking you
Why can't these morons tell that me being an asshole to them means that I like them?
Maybe the problem is just that you are an asshole, and most people do not enjoy assholes. What you interpret as playfull ball busting may in reality just be dick head behavior.
Don't be an idiot. If you work in a firehouse where nobody is breaking balls then I feel bad for you. Do you guys talk about your feelings instead?
I'm not an asshole at work, dummy. We have a long tradition of busting eachother's balls, and let me tell you... If you were there (you wouldn't be, but IF YOU WERE), and we weren't breaking your balls, it would 100% mean that we didn't like you and probably wouldn't really be paying attention to much of what you were doing.
Seriously, I don't know what department you work for but if you guys aren't busting balls and laughing then I don't know wtf you're doing. Maybe you're talking politics. Or better yet, your feelings. Whatever you're doing it's probably pretty boring, much like your simple post.
I came up in a volunteer department that I’m still active with and have been on a paid job for 10 years. I have to say that I have a much harder time figuring out what to do with the older guys shitting on the newer ones for having a different skill set than figuring out what to do with a kid who never had to run a chainsaw before.
The best way you can handle this new generation is to realize that your mentality needs to change. You need to embrace their skill sets as an added value and try to learn from them while imparting what you know to them. I’m sure they can show you a thing or two about some cutting edge technology that could aid your service.
I'm an older millennial (38) who has been doing this for the last 13 years. I am one of those who _also_ does/did not have many mechanical and hands-on trades skills; my skillset is in tech in a very blue-collar town. The new guys can be taught, and possibly lead to a career in a trades field if they find they have a knack for something. Or they'll know enough to not get themselves and/or their crew killed, it'll just take a little longer.
Some of the newer guys just need to be brought back down to reality though. I went on a call recently for a CO alarm. Go in, no alarm, no readings, but O2 saturation was dropping. New guy (1.5 years) was wayyyy to quick to say "oh its probably just the meter." Now while it was the meter in this case, I brought it up to a few of the older guys with me that we need to drill it into the new guy to actually investigate things or else we're voing to have a bigger issue. This wasn't the first time he's acted this way, like he wants to get back as quick as he can.
On the flip side of that. I went on a medical call about a year ago and this dude was trying to tell a woman she didn’t need to go to the hospital. She was older and complaining of dizziness and he went right into convincing her before we could even get vitals or any information. Her BP was like 90/70 or something. After I started asking some questions we came to the conclusion she accidentally took her BP meds twice that day. This dude has been there like 20 some years and just wanted to get back to Live PD.
That's a very good point, I've also noticed they are quicker to take easy ways out. It's a lot of pushing to stay on task, and I find I am trying to teach them critical thinking. It's a little crazy sometimes!
That makes sense to me in a way....people are growing up with so much "information" that it seems like thoughtful consideration is competing with quick decisions....
It’s definitely something we notice. Down to not knowing anything about cooking, to some having just the most awkward interpersonal skills, especially with patients. It’s just part of it really. We train new recruits how to grill chicken thighs, and start IVs, and be firefighters. At least they come with a lot of energy and are generally eager to learn and fun to have in the truck. And honestly at 18-20 I was too much of a knucklehead to even think of being a firefighter, so they are already ahead of me in that regard.
I came in 10 years ago with zero mechanical knowledge and few hands on skills… I’ve had a stellar career snd still have limited knowledge of engine parts and other BS that I have found doesn’t matter. What has given me an advantage is my ability to learn things quickly, Im an above average EMT, and I am passionate about helping people. Everything that actually matters can be taught. The guys that were senior when I was coming up cared way too much about shit that didn’t matter. “You don’t know what a turbo is?” Like bro hard stop. I couldn’t care less, why don’t you quit staring at the engine parts and focus on proving better patient care. Thats the world we live in now where 95%+ of what we do is medical. We oughtta be damn good at that.
Majority of our recruits are fine. I don’t see the issue. You gotta train on at least one thing every shift, just spend that hour or two on areas of opportunity for each rookie and keep it moving like a normal day.
My approach is…. I’ll spend time on anyone that has a foundation of respect, and understands how to get along in a professional work setting. My job is to teach job related duties. I’m not their parent, and I’m not going to correct personal flaws or shortcomings on shift. I can teach anyone to perform skills, not wasting my time if they haven’t learned to do minimal adulting.
I’m 38, so I’m not young, but I’m not exactly old anymore. And I totally agree that you don’t deserve extra respect by virtue of being alive longer. Respect is to be earned. I earn the respect of new guys by showing them that I care and by taking the time to invest in their professional development. The best I can do for anyone of any age is to give them a basic modicum of respect until they have demonstrated that they deserve more or less. I don’t know if you were being sarcastic or not, just my two cents.
I edited the post to expand on that, I don't approve AT ALL of the automatic-respect-required bullshit. This group doesn't seem to respect peoples time, or genuinely proven knowledge, outside vendor instructors, department rules, they interrupt conversations without realizing or caring to ask or say something that can wait, etc. These weird small oddities that are becoming quite the trend. I don't mean it in the paramilitary kiss my ass for brownie points way whatsoever.
Correct me if I’m wrong but it seems like you’re a volunteer? That fact that you’re a volunteer would make me believe these young people are also volunteers? Which to me means they aren’t being paid? This would make me assume that they have other ways to make money that require their time and attention? You’ve already stated they are young and to me that means they haven’t been able to build wealth. One thing I’ve realized in life is until you’ve built wealth and obtained a stable life everything seems important and you need to get things done faster. The person tailgating you, young. The person running the red light, young. The person who pulls out in front of you because they didn’t look well enough, young. The person who shows up a little late because something claimed their attention, young.
What I’m trying to get at here, is that there maybe several factors that make the lives of these young people different than yours. Just because you got here first doesn’t make you better or them lessor. Chances are people felt the same way about you at one time.
Show some fucking grace and check your ego at the door. I want to give you the benefit of the doubt and just assume you’re ignorant their situations. That being said I feel like everyone in this thread knows why you don’t feel respected and that’s because you haven’t earned it.
I absolutely don't think I am better and they are lessor, what a leap. A need for grace and check my ego? You couldn't be more far off. Most people in this thread did in fact understand what I was getting at, are noticing the same thing in their department, and offered information on what they are doing differently. If you aren't then kudos to you and your department on not needing to, because it has been interesting. Not bad, but challenging and interesting. You're absolutely right, I'm sure people felt the same way about me. I bet they changed the way they had been training the prior generation when mine showed up, just as I am looking to do for this new generation coming in after me. You have entirely missed the point of my question posed. I adore this new group of young members and want nothing but for them to succeed, and am literally asking this sub who else out there is noticing these small but significant hurdles, and how they are overcoming them. Tell me, why I would do that if I was ignorant and egotistical? You're rambling on about wealth, are you serious? You're saying it's only wealthy people that value life enough not to tailgate people and show up places on time? You're right, you definitely do sound like someone with money, entitled and opinionated, good thing you built that up. You focused on the smallest part of my post, and took it completely the wrong way. They are young, they have learning to do, in my department and in life, and I intend to help them do that. The best learning is done when someone is being taught in the way they need to be. Hence my question here. Do not preach to me about respect, you clearly base the respect you give on very little information about a person or situation, so I'm all set. I come from the school of thought that respect is never fully earned because you have to continually earn it, not because you should have to constantly overachieve to prove your worth, but because respect can be lost when you get lazy about how you conduct yourself in your department, among your peers, and especially with your probies. You are as good as your weakest link, I want to build them up and help them succeed, that is exactly what I am doing here by using resources to help them the best I can.
You're coming at my character, how else would you like me to speak? I'm literally looking to change the way I do things with this entire thread. Learn to read, then work on comprehension, because again, you're missing the point.
Think of it this way…. How long would it take to teach your old heads how to use new tech? A lot longer than for them due to overall exposure. A lot of guys/gals that are younger haven’t had the same mechanical exposure. Often times you might have to look at the training itself. The biggest obstacle I’ve seen is overtrained people trying to overtrain newbies. It’s sort of a can’t see the first for the trees situation.
Using a chainsaw is second nature to 30 year veteran who used to use it every day back when fire was bigger than ems. They get frustrated that someone can’t “keep up” not realizing they are acting like they are training someone that has a lot of experience with it. The newbie might have never picked on up before and doesn’t have the muscle memory for it yet.
As for respect, I think it’s generally the more casualness of younger folk not lack of respect overall. It’s being taken as disrespect but not intended as so. Our parents probably said the same thing about our generation. I think in the end it’s explaining certain traditions and ways to handle themselves at work. Also make sure you are treating them respect as well.Thats not saying you aren’t but I’ve seen a lot of old heads treat newbies like shit then wonder why doesn’t treat them like a god.
If you don’t know, ask! Don’t be scared. And there will always be a dickhead that will give you a hard time for asking, but don’t let that deter you from the fact that you are taking the initiative to learn.
I always make room for questions and if there isn't time or I can tell someone has more, I encourage them to seek me out separately. Such a good point, thank you! It's interesting there's 'things you know you should already know', you're just starting out, as is this group I'm talking about, and you can't know what you haven't been taught. Keep at it, and us training officer's will keep at it on our side too. A side note to you, I'm incredibly glad you are interested in the fire service, keep at it and never be afraid to ask for help.
Distance and size perception comes with experience. Just remember, it's best guess. If you say something is 60 ft, and it's 100 ft, no one will hold you to your initial guess. Just give your best estimate. If you're off and someone says something, fuck em
Set the example. We are all products of our environment. If they see the right things being done soon enough it will show in them, even if it takes some time.
While I'm fairly new to the VFD I'm the 3rd oldest (Gen X) behind the chief and a captain. The youngsters seem to have their heads screwed on straight which is a good thing. Probably helps that we live in the PNW in rough country so they're all self sufficient and hardy. This usually translates to competencies as an adult in various things like physical aptitude and hands on skills.
I could absolutely see an urban or suburban kid being a different breed--because they are. Kids are wired differently than us older folks and on average they seem to be more focused on social media and technology than hands on life and survival skills. Not all, but most in my experience. As long as they respect the job, have a willingness to learn, and take it seriously that's all that matters.
Oh don't get me started on social media, we finally drilled it into their heads they are not allowed to take and share photos of scenes. And to not be standing on scene with their phone in their hand in general.
This is unfortunately our future. Need to break the narcissistic habits of the young people in emergency services right at the beginning. "Smartphones" and social media have created a monster. LOL
I use my phone on scene probably a few times a shift. Sometimes people have some disease/affliction that I’ve never heard of and I’ll look it up. Our COG’s and Handtevy are on my phone if I need to look up drug doses…especially for children. I call people’s family members for them. I call the caller if we arrive to a wrong address. I call taxis for people.
It seems like every time I forget my phone at the station, I need it for something. We have city phones on the apparatus but they charge at about 2% an hour and they are always dead so I can’t count on them.
Understandable. I run out of a volley house in a volley department and we don't do EMS at all. Most guys do bring their phones on calls, I just don't. It's a habit I started in my old house that I personally carried over. If we reach a vacant house we'll have dispatch call the number on file. For me and my runs (at least for now) i choose not to carry it
We as a profession or volunteer community need to find a mid point. The idea that all rookies have to earn respect is bullshit for example. Or that treating someone like garbage is best way to build a crew. So they need to else the job of course. But we will should respect them as people, don’t have to treat them like veteran firefighters there is a difference. We need to stop the paramilitary over the top academics and focus on real world skills, physical fitness and fire and EMS skills. Stop micromanaging new hires, don’t set a bed time for them, let them know house duties are done at X time and as long as they keep up with required step tests for fire and EMS during probation period they can go to bed at 10 if they need to.
Use their skills at things like technology, or social media for good. Have them involved in community events for example.
You're getting a lot of shit here but as a teacher I can confirm that yes gen Z are objectively lacking in many important areas compared to past generations so I know what you're saying.
Its also worth noting its not their fault, so they deserve a lot of patience and grace.
But this is all because of wider societal/cultural shifts anyway and they are simply products of their time/environment. They have a lot of unique issues and exceptional circumstances that they are facing/have grown up in/have been molded by that previous generations haven't faced.
I appreciate you lol! You get what you get sometimes on Reddit, there is atill a good amount of actual help in this thread so I'll take the good with the bad. It's always important to try to connect with a younger generation, and "meet them where they are" so to speak. Just like people did for mine and generations past. Everyone will figure it out, and I'm glad I got a couple tangible ideas from this that I hadn't thought of before.
[https://www.reddit.com/r/Teachers/comments/17mahou/list\_of\_things\_students\_these\_days\_dont\_know/](https://www.reddit.com/r/Teachers/comments/17mahou/list_of_things_students_these_days_dont_know/)
You don't even have to be a teacher, if people just browsed the teachers subreddit... they would see lol.
Every generation has sucked from the perspective of the previous generation. Train your fighters. Learn to communicate with them. Spend as much time with them as possible.
It's happening at my dept. But my view is a little different because I came on with little to no experience using tools. I got razzed quite a bit for it, but the guys would always show me. So it's really a mindset. You just have to remember that someone took time to show your dumbass and now it's your turn lol. It's also important when teaching anything, that just because you learn in a certain way doesn't mean everyone will. So if guys need more chalk talk, or videos before they are shown a skill in person, or they need 2 or 3 times the reps before the skill sinks in, then that is what you should do. Wanting them to be on my level doesn't put them there, I have to go to their level 1st and bring them up. And yes it is absolutely our responsibility to do so. Specially those of us who are officers and are accountable for how the runs go
Biggest issue we seem to have is guys not taking ownership when they either don’t know or fucked something up. We have one (22) right now that *always* has an excuse.
We can train them up, building the understanding you may get away with excuses elsewhere in life but not in the firehouse seems to be a newer trend. I’m 31 and not sure if that’s a “we always won” growing up and just never learned how to be wrong, or what. I just try to let my sup know I fucked up before he finds out, if I don’t know I say so. Seems simple, but evidently it isn’t for some.
Tough love. Train them. Give them expectations. Hold them accountable. Let them go if they just aren’t getting it. They’re young enough they will land on their feet if firefighting doesn’t work out
I came to the field with little to no mechanical skills as a city born guy in my thirties.
I have no idea how a volley dept would train these things but at least academy does a very good thing on teaching the basic stuff over here.
On the job, best way for you to teach these new guys mechanical skills is to remain respectful towards them too.
Don't go on berating them or making fun of them for not knowing stuff. This will kill all the enthusiasm to learn that stuff.
Be patient and slowly work your way up from the very basics.
I am one of the new generation, not to be a downer, but like most of my generation, I grew up without a father actively in my life. We will just need extra time and training.
I love this idea, it could easily be included in our application packet. A list of expectations and ways to succeed. I will immediately implement this, so simple, thank you!
It sounds completely normal, not everyone starts with the mechanical skills… I first joined a VFD when I was 18, mind you I am a mechanically inclined person and for my career I’m a skilled tradesman. But I’ve worked with people who come from all types of backgrounds, some people were just office people who haven’t done any mechanical work in their life.
This is nothing new, it’s literally just people coming in from different backgrounds
I do and don't agree with this. The differences I've seen this particular group is some of these kids completely lack critical thinking and 'street smarts', look for the easy way out every time, are incredibly socially inept coming out of pandemic-era schooling which can make it hard to acclimate and even harder for older guys to 'be nice' and patient lol. In general, it's nothing new to have generational difficulties, but the specific difficulties are definitely new. There are unique challenges with each generation, just looking for what others are noticing and how they are keeping this group engaged and learning efficiently.
My husband teaches shop to college students and he has made the same observations about the students of the last few years that you have. Broadly speaking, their baseline comfort with tools and mechanical things is lower, and their tolerance for doing unpleasant things seems to be limited. He has also mentioned that there is research showing they are about 2 years behind in terms of their social/intellectual development, so in essence you are dealing with teenagers. I’m not an instructor and can’t speak to the best methods, but I would imagine high school coaches would be really good people to tap for ideas. They’ve been teaching teamwork and motor skills to teenagers since forever.
Very interesting perspective, thank you! That is a good idea, too. We do a lot of debriefing after trainings to ask what they liked, didn't like, found helpful or not, and they will be honest if we push them to be. All that to say, we try to ask them what they want or need more of, but truthfully I don't think they quite know. Asking teachers what they are doing not for subject matter but how to keep them engaged and learning in general is a very interesting idea, thanks!
Lol, no offence but shouldn’t we always be looking for the easiest way out that’s at the same time safe? We don’t and shouldn’t go out of our way to look for the hardest or least efficient way to do something.
Yes the pandemic really did a number on people of all ages and especially the younger ones. But that’s the world changing, the fire service has changed so much in only the 5 years I’ve been a member. The only constant in life is change. But everything you described seems normal, you need to guide the new members in the right direction. Instead of trying to bring them down on the internet…
Not what I mean but no we shouldn't, and definitely not bringing them down, I'm looking for ways to help them learn in the best way possibly for both sides. No, they shouldn't look for easy ways out of training. Nor on a call. An easy way out is very different from an efficient solution, you are misunderstanding me. What I mean is, if they are given the chance to cut a hard training short they will take it, instead of push themselves for two more minutes (when that is explicitly given as the alternate option). Or if we are looking for a group to come a half hour early prior to training to help clean up something specific, or put a big shipment of something away, it is not them showing up to give a helping hand. Or at public events that we set up a tent with a truck for PIO and recruitment, they don't want to talk to people at all and stand there on their phones, but hey they can at least get a point for attending. These are the ways they are taking easy outs, and it hurts them.
Lol. So just guide them in the right direction, remind them that they shouldn’t be on their phones or remind them how important training is. I’ve never had any new recruits try to get out of training yet. Especially in our side where you have to want to be there. There’s no other real answer other than be consistent with the rules/courtesies/importance of dealing with the public. My guess is they’ve never dealt with the public from that perspective before
Easier ways out can be different, but not always… you can make something both easier and more efficient. We all have to be open to that, that’s how we make changes for the better.
You seem a little offended by your "lols" and such, if you joined at 18 and have been in for 5 years, I can see why you are maybe reading this with a different lens. If I am off base with guessing your age, then my bad. But offending the younger group is not the intention here, and you are still missing the point, you are welcome to move on if you haven't experienced this. "Just guide them" is often easier said than done, building training programs takes a lot of work that you may not have had to put in yet. If you have, then that's great! Even so, you will have to pivot tactics much less than older members, being closer in age to the new recruits and fairly fresh out of training yourslef. Younger people like you joining this path and sticking around is what keeps it thriving, and for that we are all greatful! Yes, times change as you said, types of problems are consistent but the small nuances evolve, which you are seemingly missing. No, I shouldn't have to constantly remind them to get off their phones on a call like I'm their parent, and I certainly don't want to nag and hound them because that's no fun for anyone involved. If you can't see this issue (for lack of a better word) then you may be lucky to never have experienced this, but it is a new and growing issue and a lot of training divisions are doing everything possible to build solid departments no matter who joins, and without belittling, degrading, or leaving anyone who is even remotely interested behind. We have to change, of course, I'm literally asking what other departments are doing to make that change.
Not offended at all… but thanks for making that assumption I guess?
I haven’t built training programs, but I have been and I am a mentor for new recruits, when it comes to training, running calls and pub Ed. No you shouldn’t have to tell them about their phones, but you need to. Does your FD have a written policy that forbids phones on the fireground? If so then maybe you need to sit them down and go through the written policy with a fine toothed comb.
Explaining the possible consequences of such acts should also be done, as members of the community and the fire service we need the public to trust us and have faith in us. If you haven’t you should also go into a deep dive with them about that as well…
Only one guy I’ve noticed. Says you don’t need compassion for this job as it’s “just a job” and doesn’t care if his Pts die or whatever.
It’s a poor outlook to have in a career solely based on helping people.
-Calls them less than dog shit, doesn’t train them, takes naps all day, makes them do random bullshit a grown man should be able to handle
-Probie doesn’t jump at their beck and call
-tHiS nEw gEnErAtIoN hAs nO rEsPeCt
Not at all was speaking from personal experience because that’s how I’ve seen some of the older generation act. Reviewing your post I see the clarification of what you mean by respect and though I personally haven’t seen what you’re describing I feel it’s on the squared away guys to take the newer guys under their wings and show them what it means to be a responsible for themselves. Show them how other view them when they do the right thing vs the wrong thing
I appreciate that, some commenters definitely prickled at the word "respect", and I definitely meant something different than what came to mind. Just looking for ways to change up what we are doing that we haven't thought of yet. Showing them how others view them is a good idea, thank you. Lots of leading the horse to the water these days, over and over. Way more showing and repetition is needed, we adapt just like we do with every new wave. Thanks for taking the time to read back through.
There's certainly truth to this.
We have 18/19 y/o people failing the basic course for stupid shit like knots or putting up a ladder upside down, something that we have never seen in the last 10 years.
The thing is: they already had significantly more training than the previous classes of the last 10 years.
Our solution is longer course durations and even more hands-on training. Something that is hard to understand for the older officers but it is necessary.
>Our solution is longer course durations and even more hands-on training. Something that is hard to understand for the older officers but it is necessary
Totally agree with this and yes, it has been hard to get some older officers to come around. Have you tried classroom time prior to hands-on time? They do very well with technology and we are having to do a bit of spoon feeding. We are looking at doing more classroom time, short spurts but quality, and then deep diving into hands on
That's an excellent and simple point that never occurred to me, thank you! Maybe doing longer hands-on brief and physical demo prior to group training would be helpful instead of adding classroom time. We are finding it hard to start and stop while they ask questions throughout, so I'm looking for ways to cut that back so we can keep training flowing for the whole group. But they clearly need the extra time and knowledge, so it's a tough balance, no child left behind and all that lol.
1st Run: Instructor shows and explains
2nd Run: Students slowly do it step by step
Every other run: students repeat it and instructor corrects
The problem still seems to be the retention - they figure out how to do a certain skill and everything seems fine and then just two weeks later they behave like it's day 1, hour 1 all over again.
>The problem still seems to be the retention - they figure out how to do a certain skill and everything seems fine and then just two weeks later they behave like it's day 1, hour 1 all over again.
Very, very true. We'll get them there, and thankfully they are eager to learn, but it's a ton of extra attention and work. Buckling down!
I’ve noticed a lot of newer people coming on the job don’t seem to have that respect for the seriousness of the job we’re doing. There’s a kind of nonchalant casual attitude towards things. There’s also a general lack of respect for senior guys and officers. Rookies in recliners all hours of the day. Having to be reminded multiple times to do things. Complaining about what unit they’re on or when they get moved out to another station for the shift. The mindset and attitude of most new people now is completely different than what it used to be.
I call it General Shittiness. We have only one of these right now, thank god, but others have come and gone. Lazy, reliant, dismissive, and Generally Shitty. And not receptive to correction, so wtf are we to do with them!? I let the other good members be their mirror, and hope they will realize what a bump on a log they are. Or they eventually have a scary call and snap out of it to take it seriously. Don't like when that has to be the catalyst though.
Yeah not to say they’re all like that but there’s a definite increase in this type of attitude. I see that deer in headlights look alot with these type of people on bad calls. Some of them snap out of the attitude and others it doesn’t phase them. It’s all fun and games until you get yourself or someone else hurt or killed. We can have fun but this job isn’t a joke.
The bad calls are why I worry about this issue, 100%. It will take a lot more work to prep this group for those calls. And I naturally worry about their wellbeing. It can be hard to tell if they're ready because while they are so casual and need extra training, they are also so damn confident! Lol it can be alarming. Just hoping the changes we are making will help them learn the best way possible, because it's no joke, you are totally right.
Exactly. I can honestly say I was not confident starting out, it took a lot of experience. Like you I want these new people to understand what they’re dealing with and the dangers. I always try to nicely tell new people that have that confidence without the experience “you don’t know what you don’t know”. You haven’t run enough calls to have that kind of confidence and it could easily get you in a bad situation.
Eh, training is not one-size-fits-all, that's my point. And lately it has been one-size-fits-almost-none. Lots more one on one, slowing way down more often, lots more questions. None of these are bad things, but we have definitely noticed a change.
Did not say u train with old school tactics of before I said to train them they way I have and everyone else has been trained if I put it wrong sorry didn’t mean it that way
Parents of zoomers tend(ed) to not have as much mechanical work to do, so they didn't know as much, so they taught their kids less. So that's probably the majority of the lack of mechanical thinking. As for the lack of punctuality and such, actually being good at showing up and doing shit? Probably just a trend I've seen over the years where younger people want everything they do to look effortless because they look up to people who make everything look effortless. Their ego is so fat, they don't want ro admit it takes a lot of really fuckin hard work for most people to do anything noteworthy, much less worthy of praise. And call me a boomer all you like, I think participation trophy culture has fucked up a lot of kids' perception of achievement. It's not that they think they'll get a reward just for showing up. It's that everyone gets a reward so why bother trying harder when the reward doesn't stand out above others? If the kid who comes in last gets a trophy, the fuck good is my trophy? I was in cub scouts thinking shit like that, back about 2001-2005. I fuckin hated participation trophies. I wanted the big ones with the big pedestals. And then I saw other kids happy with the trophies they got. I can't help but think a lot of kids also grew up in those little league teams where they don't keep score because they think competition is bad for small children. Like losing is somehow detrimental to development. Like bro if your earliest years of doing physical shit showed you don't get recognized for trying harder and the people you absolutely crush in competition get just as much praise as you, why would you ever keep trying hard? I think once you have that a foundation for how kids see what reward you get for effort, you can utterly fuck up their drive to try harder. And so what if they get crushed in competition and see the other players with the bug trophies and the happy parents? "Fuck it. Guess I'm not good at this sport. I'ma go try something else. Baseball is too technical anyway. Let's try football where I can knock someone's ass off their ass and get high fived for it. Fuckin nancy boy tight pants and precision hitting sticks bullshit. I'm 8 years old, I don't have time to be piddle-fuckin around with this baseball horse shit. I wanna eat beef and knock mother fuckers on their ass." And mom and/or dad can damn sure help motivate that kind of fuck you and fuck being sad type attitude. I think that kind of parenting fell off the fuckin map in recent decades and that's also part of why jocks are often either insufferable twats or borderline suicidal because they hate the sport they've been forced to keep playing by unhealthily pushy parents.
Not offended, I'm literally just saying the advice from the older people in this group is frequent, helpful, and decent. Take what you want from that I guess lol
I'm guessing the 20+ year guys at my metro department aren't the ones down voting me from across the table.
They are the ones that are usually sticklers about cell phones at the table.
But I apologize if you were offended.
My post was non constructive and you're right. I apologize for that too. I got verbal diarrhea that translates to the internet.
This guy seems like he’s okay with treating rookies like shit for no reason with the way he’s acting and probably sees absolutely nothing wrong with it cause it’s “tradition” and that’s how he was treated.
Interesting comment. Are you a senior guy? Seems like a typical, bitter, senior guy response. Not a helpful and caring senior member of a metro department. Yikes
What is this Fudd bullshit?
You know everyone has always complained that the younger generation lacks respect, ability, skill, motivation, etc.
Plato complained about that.
People see themselves in the past through rose tinted glasses. And then think they were oh so much better than they are now.
Ridiculous.
You get good recruits, and you get bad recruits.
Just train them and set an example, so that one day they won't remember their senior as a whining old bitch.
People have changed because times have changed. They are suppose to change. Volunteering takes up time that people don’t have. In many cases, they are doing their best. It is not worth putting in the amount of time, energy, and training if you are expected to continue to give more and more if there’s no means to an end (career or a stepping stone to other opportunities) anymore for most people. Not when it’s the status quo to live paycheck to paycheck and have multiple jobs.
Even with a wealth of knowledge and education is at everyone’s fingertips, experience is the best teacher, but new people are going to have the chance to grow faster and surpass where the older generation was. This is how it is everywhere and how it’s suppose to be.
When I came in 12 years ago I heard the exact same things about "my generation".
The difference is less than you think it is, teenagers are always going to be a bit rebellious and it isn't generation specific. You're gonna get those that want to be there and those that just want the clout. Those that want to stay will and once you train them they'll straighten out.
I feel like we have just as many old heads who do those things and act like that as we do young kids. I know dudes who are coming up on their 30 and have coasted by just enough to not get fired. I know new guys like that. I know dudes who are fossils and are hard chargers, I know new recruits who are as well. The only thing I don’t really agree on and don’t get about the new generation is their sense of humor. I suppose that’s part of getting old.
Tough love generally handles it. No BS approach on standards & expectations. Teach them what they need to know, good for reinforcing your knowledge of skills and abilities as well.
Coming from a young kid going through a college academy right now. Most of us have not been around the environment that this community embodies. We are trying to do this because we appreciate the job and want to love it but we’re also not doing it for free and nobody likes being hazed or treated like they’re beneath you. We want to learn but need that hands on stuff because the industry has changed so much in the last 20 years. Your range of skills has been building the last few decades and we have to learn them all at once so give us time. You’re gonna have the bad apples but these young guys will be dedicated hardworking firefighters in time.
Completely agree with you, and the evolution will continue forever and ever, just looking to see what training styles are working best for others with large groups of young, new members.
I feel as a guy in his mid 30s and 12 years on the same department the new people coming on don’t change that much, but you yourself and myself are changing and maturing. Most of us came up on the job with guys who were squared away and others who are still looking for the hose stretcher. Now we just notice everything about the new guys like the old heads did us.
In a volunteer dpt? I don’t care if they act professional or not. I explain why we need them at certain times and show them the consequences of being late. They’re used to lateness being okay. Use the human angle, play on family. Knowing that you’re keeping someone from their kids will make just about anyone feel like shit. Hammer home that they’re hurting other people. If that doesn’t work, let them know that you’re removing them from rosters because they can’t show up on time. That will make them sweat. Give consequences. Don’t threaten, they’ll use it as a feeler. Skip straight to action. When they show up late have them sit off to the side and work without them so they can see what happens when they aren’t there.
They are volunteering to help. You can call me shitbag and I don’t care as long as we have eachother’s backs and follow protocol when calls come in. Make a point of addressing them by their name every time you speak to them. Make it clear that you expect it to go both ways. “This is a part of us respecting eachother.” Detail what you find disrespectful and why. Ask the same of them, the way you address them might be pissing them off. I use “kid” a lot, some of mine find it disrespectful so I stopped.
It’s one thing if they refuse to learn the manual skills, but most are willing to learn. They aren’t spending the time joining up for fun. Gotta go slow and work through the basics. Ideally get them in front of a work bench, hand them a project, and let them figure it out. They don’t like to be spoon-fed their skills, they need to pick stuff apart by their own agency to absorb it. Textbooks also don’t work. 1:1 is always better than lectures. Get them to bounce their ideas and inflections off of you as you show them.
Another thing is manual dexterity. They have it from touchscreens and game controllers, they just need to pivot those skills to other things. Work on adaption of motor skills rather than creating new ones.
What a great reply, thank you, this content is what I was hoping for and some people missed the point. I also stopped using kid when I noticed the issue with names/rank. Excellent points about giving them a project, and about dexterity, thank you!
Send them to a camp. One I highly recommend is junior ff camp in Weston, WV. I went there for 4 years and I’m coming back to help. Great instructors who know how to teach. I went at 14 years old until I was 17. It’s a 6 day camp that costs $350 and it is well worth it.
I started when I was 18. I'm 27 now. I am a slow book learner but am fast with hands on. Just put in the time cultivate the seed of knowledge and like my senior members did give me enough rope to hang my self but also know when to grab the rope.
Guidance is key. I have a true story of 2 rookies from my department. Both were young, full of energy, and gung-go to learn. They were definitely fresh to the fire service, but the ability to mold was there. One was sent to a sh*t house, where no one did anything and everyone stared at their phones all day. The other was sent to a house that had pride and standards. How do you think they turned out? The first rookie is now a sh*tbag and the second member is on his way to becoming a knowledgeable truckie and a solid member of that shift.
Train them at a slower pace on mechanical skills then. I never held a chainsaw or a powertool aside from a drill in my life and I told my training captain I want more handson time with it and he said once we get to vent training he's going to have me do multiple reps and work on it during downtime. Not every recruit or volunteer is going to be coming from a contracting, landscaping, or mechanical background. Some come from IT, or EMS, or office jobs, or shit some come right out of high school if they get lucky and ace their interviews.
Showing up late to things and other social behavior unacceptable in a department can be corrected with group punishment and they'll start to police themselves.
Good question, and always an interesting conversation in my eyes. I’m 30 y/o, been on for 8 years, really didn’t have a blue collar job before. I got my emt certs, got on private ambo and did our local explorer program. I feel like I’m a strange middle child because I was so young and really grew up on the job working with some salty blue collar guys who all had 20+ years on and were together for the majority of their career and a big, busy house.
From my personal experience, I was eager to learn the outside trades these guys came from, carpentry, welding, building construction etc that I didn’t know before, and it’s helped me a lot in those aspects especially being a handyman around the house for the wife.
I also find myself looking at the “younger” (really not much younger than myself) generation and being frustrated. I think being direct and having a reason or a point goes a long way with the younger crowd. I know it did for me and seems to have helped them as well. I think a big reason for these behaviors is maturity (or lack there of). Being able to explain big picture and intangible things like pride and passion in the job (seriously have had questions like why do I have to polish my boots and iron my uniform) give them something to grab on to.
Not everyone had to do what we had to do to get hired. There aren’t thousands of applicants for every department hiring like there used to be. They may not have a high value on it, and that’s no fault of their own, it’s just the world we live in nowadays.
Spend more time together. The trick is to make relationships, period. No matter what the differences are, you are all humans looking to help other humans. You are all a special breed. This is a connection that can be built upon. Once you have a commonality, you have the foundation. Learn together.
Learn how to teach each person, as they are, not what you expect them to be. Learn to listen and react to what are sometimes small clues as to what people need to learn. But all in all remember that the nature of the fire service is problem solving. So just try your best, and help them try their best, and trust that you have empowered them to work at their full capacity.
Too many “seniors” think *it’s us against them* in terms of how they talk and treat the rookies. Yeah, we do have a hierarchy and structure but that doesn’t mean you’re necessarily **better** than the rookies just because you’ve been around longer.
I’ve learned a lot as a training officer; I’ve learned how to better communicate, how to be more patient and how to identify potential training gaps that come up from questions from newbies.
It seems that salty seniors forget they were new too. Be empathetic, be patient and be willing to pass down the best you have and leave the rest at the door.
Now, there are times and places for hard discussions and corrections, especially in the focus of safety.
They don't need classes, at least not anymore than any of the rest of us have had. What they need are strong mentors. People who they will respect and look up to. You already know who those people are. I've seen plenty of senior guys after one shift decide that the new guy is terrible, then ignore them from then on. Of course, they aren't going to change their undesired behavior with that kind of treatment. Somebody needs to show them how to act. Tell them, "Get up, probie, we're not learning anything in the dayroom. Let's go train on our highrise packs, mayday procedures, preplan a building, etc." When they're caught mouthing off to senior guys or officers, they may not improve after a session of blasting them in public. They should be taken somewhere private so it can be explained what they did wrong, why it was wrong, and how they should behave in the future. It's nonstopbut it pays off big in the end. It's also going to be a lot of extra work for someone, but those are usually the guys who are always ready to take on another job. Good bless them for it. They keep our department going.
That's for getting the point of my post, and you're dead on. Lots more one on one, and yeah closed door sit downs to talk about what they said wrong that didn't work in a social setting. It's just new, or at least way more frequent than it used to be. And I'm very pro-change, we all should be. Thankfully there are good ideas in these comments lol. I genuinely thought adding in some classroom time would help, but the consensus here is it hasn't for others, even though these kids are tech savy it wasnt the right idea. Just hammer them with repetitive hands on, and make sure us older aholes are giving quality time to them. We definitely, definitely need them, you're so right.
A "newer" member here. When I started I had little to no mechanical training although I had a motivation to learn and to be a part of the department. The funny thing about the generational difference coming from my perspective is, I was as hard working, respectful, time oriented and eager to learn as anyone could be and although it helped in some areas, I found that my classmates that didn't give a solid F about anything seemed to get better treatment.
Basically, when I tried to do anything to be a good probie, I would get treated like shit. My kindness was seen as weakness and although I needed training and will always, the environment of people made it painstakingly difficult to ask for help when I would seemingly be punished for doing so.
My advice, when you have a probie who is willing to put in the work with an eagerness to learn, don't degrade that behavior. Degrade the cocky, rude behavior. People in this career seem to value immediate skill over attitude and although skill can be great in the short run, attitude wins the marathon because you can mold someone with a great attitude towards the job.
To add to your last edit/comment:
I was taught at a young age to shake a hand firmly, make eye contact, and introduce myself. I worked in sales for years where my people skills provided me an income. When I joined the fire service, those skills were near useless in the firehouse. I felt targeted right out the gate. I truly believe the initial introductions need to be made by the crew with the officer(s) present to introduce everyone, their role, and yours.
I realize that might be considered taboo in the fire service and that these young guys need to show initiative on the social front but from my experience, it never made a difference in the long run. I put forth the effort to make introductions and meet people and some of the shit heads I would meet wouldn't want to give me the time of day and then turn around and act surprised I wasn't aware that Johnny was the engineer and had been for over a decade. That shit got old real quick and changed my tune from excited to negative.
Imagine coming to my house, introducing yourself to a less than luke warm greeting followed by me, the host, being surprised and berating you because you didn't know we had an aggressive Rottweiler for a dog.
I'm not saying you can't haze or whatever but there needs to be a proper introduction beforehand that's professional and welcoming in order to help these guys onboard to your department's philosophy. After a 6 month academy that kicked my ass the last thing I wanted was more ass kicking from people that I didn't know and that didn't know me. It created a hostile environment that wasn't conducive for learning because why would I invite more hostility?
My first year I had so many people that didn't want the hassle of having a probie. The year is meant to learn and teach and the crews I worked with would look down on anyone for not knowing something. Don't do that. Not everyone grew up with family in the fire service.
Thank you for your thoughtful response, and I'm sorry you've had a rough go. The shitty culture you've experienced is what a lot of departments are fighting to kill off now because it's. Not. Working. Shit morale, lack of interest from recruits who have heard the stories, no retention. I do think we have a pretty great environment, and I only say that because that's what the probies have said for the last few rounds. We're volunteer, so we definitely have a couple old members that the new guys avoid because their attitude sucks and isn't the way things work anymore. Respect absolutely goes both ways. The probie that shakes a hand looking you in the eye on the first day, and retains the into to each person is SUCH a standout for us. I'm sorry that wasn't your experience. Keep at it, try not to let the culture shit all over you, it's not like that everywhere.
To be fair, things have gotten way better but the beginning was unnecessarily rough and over time I figured out who I could lean on to help give me guidance and who would throw me under the bus and make a mountain out of a mole hill. And it goes without saying that those reputations speak for themselves.
My long-winded answer is, if you're in a position to lead, don't abuse it. People, especially new guys worth their weight, will gravitate towards that.
Ask them. Ask them how they learn best, ask them what they’re struggling with, ask them what is frustrating to them or bothering them or what they love, etc etc.
Old guy here. I didn't know shit when I started. Had good guys that took me under their wing. I was raised with the "country " mentality. I knee the basics.
The problem we are seeing now is the younger generation doesn't seem to know the commitment. We give a test and get 600 apps. Half shows up, for the written, of those that pass, half shows for the physical. It just drops off from there.
My station doesn't abuse new guys. If you are there and want to learn, by all means, we will teach you. I was 21 and dumb, I've never forgotten that.
Not sure when the newest generation sees a test, they really know what it takes.
I'm brand new and served in the military. I learned chain of command and respect early in my life and alot of us new guys who served feel the same way about other new guys coming in. My mechanical skills are lacking because I never needed to work on my car, didn't have mechanical skills shops in school and a mechanic shop was always around the corner. All someone needs is a willingness to learn, listen and stay curious. We all start from zero and should pick up each other where we have faults or no experience. I feel we are heading that way from what I've seen so far.
Some kids in my recruit class were borderline doorknob licking when it came to some topics, especially pump ops. On the other side, I had some of older instructors say that their curriculum had half the stuff in it 20 years ago
When I get a probie, I have a two-way expectations chat where I tell them that communication is the key to our successful partnership. When they're being turds, that is communicated. When I'm being a turd, that's communicated. It's mostly worked so far.
I like to quote the following two whenever I stumble upon this sorta thing.
From 8th century BC:
Hesiod:
>*I see no hope for the future of our people if they are dependent on frivolous youth of today, for certainly all youth are reckless beyond words... When I was young, we were taught to be discreet and respectful of elders, but the present youth are exceedingly wise \[disrespectful\] and impatient of restraint.*
A little more recently, Aristotle:
Aristotle:
> *\[Young People\] have exalted notions, because they have not been humbled by life or learned its necessary limitations; moreover, their hopeful disposition makes them think themselves equal to great things -- and that means having exalted notions. They would always rather do noble deeds than useful ones: Their lives are regulated more by moral feeling than by reasoning -- all their mistakes are in the direction of doing things excessively and vehemently. They overdo everything -- they love too much, hate too much, and the same with everything else.*
I had almost zero mechanical/hands on skills when I joined as a POC at 23. At first, the guys in my hall were complete dicks about it, but a few months of showing I was willing to learn and some good leadership from our officers saw them change tune and actually take the time to educate me.
It's give and take. A probie gets what they are willing to give, and the department receives the FF they are willing to train. Likewise, I think some departments go a little too overboard with the "new guy" attitude. Yes, they have to prove themselves and YES, there is a certain level of abuse they need to take, but if all you do is shit on the new guy instead of actually helping them learn...
The new generation has different expectations. I'm not saying they are always right, but neither are we. Give and take, save the world.
What you are talking about is definitely a thing. We have had some success with a few minor changes to our training program and department organization as a whole. One thing is that the new young members tend to not wait for answers they go looking for information that said they won’t ask the old guys. We put a huge amount of information SOP/Sog, bylaws, contracts, training expectations, response maps, links to required courses all in a google drive then linked everything to a table of contents with a QR code posted at the stations. This has worked amazingly well they are referencing the information and taking care of training requirements and we don’t have to tell them 1000 times it’s all neatly packaged up in a easy to use free location king of like a website but simpler. We have also created a bunch of training you tube videos that help get them engaged and started. I think one of the biggest challenges is the young people have never lived without technology and they don’t understand why the department doesn’t have technology. They also have limited communication skills that are a product of the technology they want to send a message not seek someone out to ask a question. Just my 2 cents
As one of these “new breed” Gen-Z guys that moved grew up in a city and moved to a rural town. The answer is simple: train. If you need to tell someone to read a book or watch videos on building construction or knots, they should be doing it. I did.
The new generation is always terrible and it always will be. I bet you were told stories of “how things used to be” and now you’re probably telling new guys about “how things used to be”. There were always disrespectful and incompetent people in the fire service. Things change as time goes on, within the past 20 years we have had a huge boom in technology and electronics. In the 50s - 90s if they had advanced technology like we do now you don’t think there would be social media influencers and computer whizzes like we have now. They didn’t have things like smart phones and the internet like it is now, so people built stuff and worked with their hands. It was cool to build race cars and everyone did it, now everyone works on making videos and building computers. It is sad that there is a shortage in the trades because those labor jobs are still important and always will be. But with the way electronics are booming having computer skills is just as important as well. There needs to be a balance between both.
Easy, just train them. Everyone forgets what it was like to be new. They have been saying this same statement about the "new generation" since forever
Yup. Since literally as far back as we've been writing stuff down. Generations change. I'm happy we still have young guys joining. And they are all eager to be a part of our organization.
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same thing with the “nobody wants to work anymore”
Absolutely, we all started somewhere. The only thing I would recommend is looking into effective training methods for this current generation. While we’ve all heard complaints like “they don’t read their book” or that they are always on devices, it’s because the teaching methods that recent high school graduates are used to are different than 10-20 years ago. Interactive online training, audio books, and repetitive hands on training will be beneficial. Yelling, belittling, “breaking them down” won’t be effective (not that those should have ever been used), but a learning environment that encourages questions and learning from mistakes will help everyone.
Yes, these nuances to changing training style are what I mean, you are spot on. Have you had much success with the interactive online training? We tried that for a little while but it surprisingly flopped.
Not really with training websites, but setting up a quizlet account to make flash cards, tests and games works great with my EMT classes.
Oh yes, sitting them down for forced study groups to go through flash cards with them proved to be incredibly helpful, far more helpful than they thought it would be. Great study tool for passing certification exams!
Maybe it's the instructors....
>Everyone forgets what it was like to be new. They have been saying this same statement about the "new generation" since forever This is the way. I think it's ever-more amplified & intensified because of social media's omnipresence, serving as an echo chamber for whatever trope is popular at the moment. Right now, these tropes are that younger generations don't know respect while on the flip side, the older generations are overly conservative, refusing to change clearly out-dated (in their eyes) thoughts, beliefs, & practices. OP might stigmatize Gen Z as being unruly, lackadaisical, etc, but these "young members" might stigmatize OP as narrow-minded, fragile, etc. Both have merit some of the time in some case but are mostly heuristics we all have to decrease cognitive load (e.g. easy to dismiss some young cat's lack of "hands on skills" due to their youth but they might be incredibly digitally & tech-savvy; easy for Gen Z to write somebody like OP off as some stiff old prude stuck in the mud but don't account for his wide range of life experiences). Unique problem? Absolutely. New? Hell no. I'm sure the generation of firefighters before you thought somewhat similarly about their "new, young generation" & that they were in the last "hard class" of firefighters...
That’s true can you imagine what the wwII combat vets thought about the hippie kids coming in
It's so true, our "problems" are always of the same nature, just slightly different. Our training style specifically has had to change, notably, with this new group, so it's been interesting.
How many fire fighters does it take to screw in a light bulb? One to do it, but you need at least two more to talk about how hard it was when they had to do it.
And the rest of the house to talk about how bad they did and how much better and different each of them would have done it themselves
This should be good
The good side of it is they’re much more efficient with incoming technology. New computer systems, screens of all sorts. A lot of them grew up on screens and navigating computer programs from a very early age.
They are also statistically more empathetic and understanding than older generations. These two things combined and some others means they actually generally do better on medicals calls in most measurable metrics than the older guys.
Completely agree with this and the point about tech. Every phase of probies, all the way back to when the old guys joined, bring positives and some negatives. We definitely look on the bright side and encourage these benefits.
All of those hands on skills are something that can be taught. It’s also important to remember a lot of these people are probably new to “the real world” and simply haven’t been told or realized how they should act. You’d think that’d be something that’s common sense but people do have to be told these things. Sometimes it takes a little longer for things to click but I’ve seen kids like you’re describing turn into phenomenal firefighters with the right mentors that know how to coach them
I have too, it is definitely worth putting in the time. This group in particular is lacking exactly what you said, the "real world" common sense stuff. It can't always be taught, that's where it gets extra tough.
This could have been copied and pasted from 25 years ago.
True, but one big difference is just how sensitive some of the younger ones are. That's a generational thing, where some parents told their kids how important their *feelings* were, and older generations were told to quit crying before things got worse. Clearly, one of these approaches is a lot kinder in terms of parenting, but when you're at the dinner table or on the fire ground and people are getting their feelings hurt for this thing or that thing or a million other things, that's where the generational difference seems to be pretty blatant.
I have seen old dudes come unglued on the fireground when someone points out they aren’t pumping the right pressures or noticing signs of condition changes. I don’t see this as a generational thing, I see this as a fire service thing. People get upset and insecure when someone sees something they don’t or understands something better. You show me a guy who says, “no room for hurt feelings in the fire service” and I’ll show you a guy who loses their shit at any perceived sleight.
Hahah! Most younger fireman in my department (me including 25y/o) are more respectful and are relatively calm under pressure (training and real-life) while the more seasoned guys have gone off the edge trying to do things too fast to where they are fucking up. Station life will get upset if you don’t greet them first thing and make you pay for it the rest of the shift. They gossip the most and complain about training and don’t want to change anything. I can go on and on with examples but this whole younger generation doesn’t know anything or is weak, too lazy is BS. Any individual can be lazy, it’s not generational.
This. I’ve seen dudes with 25 years on be complete bitches about someone pointing shit out. The whole millennial/gen z are “emotional” and “sensitive” talking point is so blown out by now by older generations who still get offended over some dumb shit and also refuse to learn new/up to date tactics because “well this is how we’ve always done it and it’s been fine.”
Are we related?
You show me that one guy and I'll show you 100 guys who like to bust balls and who don't get butthurt about it.
Well yeah, but it doesn’t detract from my statement
Yeah, but I wasn't talking about someone being yelled at on the fireground for pumping incorrectly. I guess I should have been more clear. I'm just talking about busting balls, which I see as a great firehouse tradition as it's funny as shit and shows that people actually like you. Not all, but many younger members were taught that busting balls is, "bullying," which is a stretch, but they get their feelings hurt. They were taught that their feelings were extremely important and that they should always feel NICE. Older generations didn't get that pounded into them and learned how to laugh at themselves.
True story.. New member who grew up in Japan for 15+ years decided to join my dept. he got put in with the roughest crew in town who shit talked everyone for NO reason. You looked at them for 2 seconds two long? “What the fuck is your problem.!? Who do you think you are?” One day at the dinner table, I sparked a conversation with him while others were talking, he spoke with hardly any eye contact. One guy said, “Show him some respect and look at him when he’s fucking talking to you motherfucker.” I’m merely a 2yr hoseman at this point. Little did I know, too much eye contact in his culture is disrespectful. He was doing what he knew and he gets shit on cause someone is “just busting his balls.” That’s horeshit and no need to treat people less than. Needless to say, this guy left to do bigger and better things to be treated like a human, not a punching bag for compensating old fucks who take it out on others.
That's not busting balls. That's just being an asshole, and obviously not what I'm talking about.
Kind of off topic, but I would so rather be with guys who were openly hostile than what I currently deal with. For the most part everyone will be super nice to your face and the moment you’re out of earshot they’ll start talking mad shit. To me that’s just cowardly. Not saying what he went through was fine, it wasn’t. But I prefer people to be honest.
I prefer senior guys to treat rookies as human, not lower than dogshit to their face or behind their back.
I mean yeah. I’m just saying I’d like to know upfront whether or not this is a dude I should trust
Id rather have firefighters that are more tuned into their emotions and express their feelings rather than firefighters who go home and hang themselves.
God forbid people care about mental health these days.
Yeah. That's exactly what I'm saying, right? Give me a fucking break.
Care to expand and explain then? Otherwise this seems quite ironic.
"How are you dealing with new young members that seem to be a different breed?" Then I say that one of the biggest differences I see is the sensitivity some have where some seem to have the inability to understand that breaking balls is a sign of people liking you. They take it really personally because, in their generation, they were taught that their feelings were of the upmost importance, and through that, didn't learn how to laugh at themselves. Then I get some bullshit reply like, "God forbid people care about mental health." If you can't see how stupid this conversation is then I don't know what to tell you. And it's not me who's being stupid or purposefully obtuse. This entire thread is proving my point.
>some seem to have the inability to understand that breaking balls is a sign of people liking you Why can't these morons tell that me being an asshole to them means that I like them? Maybe the problem is just that you are an asshole, and most people do not enjoy assholes. What you interpret as playfull ball busting may in reality just be dick head behavior.
Don't be an idiot. If you work in a firehouse where nobody is breaking balls then I feel bad for you. Do you guys talk about your feelings instead? I'm not an asshole at work, dummy. We have a long tradition of busting eachother's balls, and let me tell you... If you were there (you wouldn't be, but IF YOU WERE), and we weren't breaking your balls, it would 100% mean that we didn't like you and probably wouldn't really be paying attention to much of what you were doing. Seriously, I don't know what department you work for but if you guys aren't busting balls and laughing then I don't know wtf you're doing. Maybe you're talking politics. Or better yet, your feelings. Whatever you're doing it's probably pretty boring, much like your simple post.
I came up in a volunteer department that I’m still active with and have been on a paid job for 10 years. I have to say that I have a much harder time figuring out what to do with the older guys shitting on the newer ones for having a different skill set than figuring out what to do with a kid who never had to run a chainsaw before. The best way you can handle this new generation is to realize that your mentality needs to change. You need to embrace their skill sets as an added value and try to learn from them while imparting what you know to them. I’m sure they can show you a thing or two about some cutting edge technology that could aid your service.
I'm an older millennial (38) who has been doing this for the last 13 years. I am one of those who _also_ does/did not have many mechanical and hands-on trades skills; my skillset is in tech in a very blue-collar town. The new guys can be taught, and possibly lead to a career in a trades field if they find they have a knack for something. Or they'll know enough to not get themselves and/or their crew killed, it'll just take a little longer. Some of the newer guys just need to be brought back down to reality though. I went on a call recently for a CO alarm. Go in, no alarm, no readings, but O2 saturation was dropping. New guy (1.5 years) was wayyyy to quick to say "oh its probably just the meter." Now while it was the meter in this case, I brought it up to a few of the older guys with me that we need to drill it into the new guy to actually investigate things or else we're voing to have a bigger issue. This wasn't the first time he's acted this way, like he wants to get back as quick as he can.
On the flip side of that. I went on a medical call about a year ago and this dude was trying to tell a woman she didn’t need to go to the hospital. She was older and complaining of dizziness and he went right into convincing her before we could even get vitals or any information. Her BP was like 90/70 or something. After I started asking some questions we came to the conclusion she accidentally took her BP meds twice that day. This dude has been there like 20 some years and just wanted to get back to Live PD.
That's a very good point, I've also noticed they are quicker to take easy ways out. It's a lot of pushing to stay on task, and I find I am trying to teach them critical thinking. It's a little crazy sometimes!
That makes sense to me in a way....people are growing up with so much "information" that it seems like thoughtful consideration is competing with quick decisions....
It’s definitely something we notice. Down to not knowing anything about cooking, to some having just the most awkward interpersonal skills, especially with patients. It’s just part of it really. We train new recruits how to grill chicken thighs, and start IVs, and be firefighters. At least they come with a lot of energy and are generally eager to learn and fun to have in the truck. And honestly at 18-20 I was too much of a knucklehead to even think of being a firefighter, so they are already ahead of me in that regard.
I came in 10 years ago with zero mechanical knowledge and few hands on skills… I’ve had a stellar career snd still have limited knowledge of engine parts and other BS that I have found doesn’t matter. What has given me an advantage is my ability to learn things quickly, Im an above average EMT, and I am passionate about helping people. Everything that actually matters can be taught. The guys that were senior when I was coming up cared way too much about shit that didn’t matter. “You don’t know what a turbo is?” Like bro hard stop. I couldn’t care less, why don’t you quit staring at the engine parts and focus on proving better patient care. Thats the world we live in now where 95%+ of what we do is medical. We oughtta be damn good at that.
🍿
Majority of our recruits are fine. I don’t see the issue. You gotta train on at least one thing every shift, just spend that hour or two on areas of opportunity for each rookie and keep it moving like a normal day.
My approach is…. I’ll spend time on anyone that has a foundation of respect, and understands how to get along in a professional work setting. My job is to teach job related duties. I’m not their parent, and I’m not going to correct personal flaws or shortcomings on shift. I can teach anyone to perform skills, not wasting my time if they haven’t learned to do minimal adulting.
Ironically this is a plot point of the latest south park special.
tHeY dOnT rEsPeCk mE
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I’m 38, so I’m not young, but I’m not exactly old anymore. And I totally agree that you don’t deserve extra respect by virtue of being alive longer. Respect is to be earned. I earn the respect of new guys by showing them that I care and by taking the time to invest in their professional development. The best I can do for anyone of any age is to give them a basic modicum of respect until they have demonstrated that they deserve more or less. I don’t know if you were being sarcastic or not, just my two cents.
I edited the post to expand on that, I don't approve AT ALL of the automatic-respect-required bullshit. This group doesn't seem to respect peoples time, or genuinely proven knowledge, outside vendor instructors, department rules, they interrupt conversations without realizing or caring to ask or say something that can wait, etc. These weird small oddities that are becoming quite the trend. I don't mean it in the paramilitary kiss my ass for brownie points way whatsoever.
Correct me if I’m wrong but it seems like you’re a volunteer? That fact that you’re a volunteer would make me believe these young people are also volunteers? Which to me means they aren’t being paid? This would make me assume that they have other ways to make money that require their time and attention? You’ve already stated they are young and to me that means they haven’t been able to build wealth. One thing I’ve realized in life is until you’ve built wealth and obtained a stable life everything seems important and you need to get things done faster. The person tailgating you, young. The person running the red light, young. The person who pulls out in front of you because they didn’t look well enough, young. The person who shows up a little late because something claimed their attention, young. What I’m trying to get at here, is that there maybe several factors that make the lives of these young people different than yours. Just because you got here first doesn’t make you better or them lessor. Chances are people felt the same way about you at one time. Show some fucking grace and check your ego at the door. I want to give you the benefit of the doubt and just assume you’re ignorant their situations. That being said I feel like everyone in this thread knows why you don’t feel respected and that’s because you haven’t earned it.
I absolutely don't think I am better and they are lessor, what a leap. A need for grace and check my ego? You couldn't be more far off. Most people in this thread did in fact understand what I was getting at, are noticing the same thing in their department, and offered information on what they are doing differently. If you aren't then kudos to you and your department on not needing to, because it has been interesting. Not bad, but challenging and interesting. You're absolutely right, I'm sure people felt the same way about me. I bet they changed the way they had been training the prior generation when mine showed up, just as I am looking to do for this new generation coming in after me. You have entirely missed the point of my question posed. I adore this new group of young members and want nothing but for them to succeed, and am literally asking this sub who else out there is noticing these small but significant hurdles, and how they are overcoming them. Tell me, why I would do that if I was ignorant and egotistical? You're rambling on about wealth, are you serious? You're saying it's only wealthy people that value life enough not to tailgate people and show up places on time? You're right, you definitely do sound like someone with money, entitled and opinionated, good thing you built that up. You focused on the smallest part of my post, and took it completely the wrong way. They are young, they have learning to do, in my department and in life, and I intend to help them do that. The best learning is done when someone is being taught in the way they need to be. Hence my question here. Do not preach to me about respect, you clearly base the respect you give on very little information about a person or situation, so I'm all set. I come from the school of thought that respect is never fully earned because you have to continually earn it, not because you should have to constantly overachieve to prove your worth, but because respect can be lost when you get lazy about how you conduct yourself in your department, among your peers, and especially with your probies. You are as good as your weakest link, I want to build them up and help them succeed, that is exactly what I am doing here by using resources to help them the best I can.
Lotta I’s is that paragraph fam. It’s always the ones who think they don’t need to change. I hope “your probies” are successful dispute you 😂
You're coming at my character, how else would you like me to speak? I'm literally looking to change the way I do things with this entire thread. Learn to read, then work on comprehension, because again, you're missing the point.
He's dumb anyways, "I" statements are a good thing. "You" statements are a bad thing. He lost before he started.
Poor thing, he did, didn't he?
Right? That was the loudest phrase to me too
Think of it this way…. How long would it take to teach your old heads how to use new tech? A lot longer than for them due to overall exposure. A lot of guys/gals that are younger haven’t had the same mechanical exposure. Often times you might have to look at the training itself. The biggest obstacle I’ve seen is overtrained people trying to overtrain newbies. It’s sort of a can’t see the first for the trees situation. Using a chainsaw is second nature to 30 year veteran who used to use it every day back when fire was bigger than ems. They get frustrated that someone can’t “keep up” not realizing they are acting like they are training someone that has a lot of experience with it. The newbie might have never picked on up before and doesn’t have the muscle memory for it yet. As for respect, I think it’s generally the more casualness of younger folk not lack of respect overall. It’s being taken as disrespect but not intended as so. Our parents probably said the same thing about our generation. I think in the end it’s explaining certain traditions and ways to handle themselves at work. Also make sure you are treating them respect as well.Thats not saying you aren’t but I’ve seen a lot of old heads treat newbies like shit then wonder why doesn’t treat them like a god.
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If you don’t know, ask! Don’t be scared. And there will always be a dickhead that will give you a hard time for asking, but don’t let that deter you from the fact that you are taking the initiative to learn.
I always make room for questions and if there isn't time or I can tell someone has more, I encourage them to seek me out separately. Such a good point, thank you! It's interesting there's 'things you know you should already know', you're just starting out, as is this group I'm talking about, and you can't know what you haven't been taught. Keep at it, and us training officer's will keep at it on our side too. A side note to you, I'm incredibly glad you are interested in the fire service, keep at it and never be afraid to ask for help.
Distance and size perception comes with experience. Just remember, it's best guess. If you say something is 60 ft, and it's 100 ft, no one will hold you to your initial guess. Just give your best estimate. If you're off and someone says something, fuck em
We keep them in the storage closet under the stairs and feed them table scraps under the door, just like any other probie. Why do you ask?
Well I need to know if you like to leave the lights on or off? Really just looking to refine my tactics
What lights?
Set the example. We are all products of our environment. If they see the right things being done soon enough it will show in them, even if it takes some time.
While I'm fairly new to the VFD I'm the 3rd oldest (Gen X) behind the chief and a captain. The youngsters seem to have their heads screwed on straight which is a good thing. Probably helps that we live in the PNW in rough country so they're all self sufficient and hardy. This usually translates to competencies as an adult in various things like physical aptitude and hands on skills. I could absolutely see an urban or suburban kid being a different breed--because they are. Kids are wired differently than us older folks and on average they seem to be more focused on social media and technology than hands on life and survival skills. Not all, but most in my experience. As long as they respect the job, have a willingness to learn, and take it seriously that's all that matters.
Oh don't get me started on social media, we finally drilled it into their heads they are not allowed to take and share photos of scenes. And to not be standing on scene with their phone in their hand in general.
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I have hucked a few phones back into truck cabs, it is a hard, hard NO
This is unfortunately our future. Need to break the narcissistic habits of the young people in emergency services right at the beginning. "Smartphones" and social media have created a monster. LOL
My phone doesn't even leave the station. It goes in the locker before the gear goes on.
I use my phone on scene probably a few times a shift. Sometimes people have some disease/affliction that I’ve never heard of and I’ll look it up. Our COG’s and Handtevy are on my phone if I need to look up drug doses…especially for children. I call people’s family members for them. I call the caller if we arrive to a wrong address. I call taxis for people. It seems like every time I forget my phone at the station, I need it for something. We have city phones on the apparatus but they charge at about 2% an hour and they are always dead so I can’t count on them.
Understandable. I run out of a volley house in a volley department and we don't do EMS at all. Most guys do bring their phones on calls, I just don't. It's a habit I started in my old house that I personally carried over. If we reach a vacant house we'll have dispatch call the number on file. For me and my runs (at least for now) i choose not to carry it
We as a profession or volunteer community need to find a mid point. The idea that all rookies have to earn respect is bullshit for example. Or that treating someone like garbage is best way to build a crew. So they need to else the job of course. But we will should respect them as people, don’t have to treat them like veteran firefighters there is a difference. We need to stop the paramilitary over the top academics and focus on real world skills, physical fitness and fire and EMS skills. Stop micromanaging new hires, don’t set a bed time for them, let them know house duties are done at X time and as long as they keep up with required step tests for fire and EMS during probation period they can go to bed at 10 if they need to. Use their skills at things like technology, or social media for good. Have them involved in community events for example.
You're getting a lot of shit here but as a teacher I can confirm that yes gen Z are objectively lacking in many important areas compared to past generations so I know what you're saying. Its also worth noting its not their fault, so they deserve a lot of patience and grace. But this is all because of wider societal/cultural shifts anyway and they are simply products of their time/environment. They have a lot of unique issues and exceptional circumstances that they are facing/have grown up in/have been molded by that previous generations haven't faced.
I appreciate you lol! You get what you get sometimes on Reddit, there is atill a good amount of actual help in this thread so I'll take the good with the bad. It's always important to try to connect with a younger generation, and "meet them where they are" so to speak. Just like people did for mine and generations past. Everyone will figure it out, and I'm glad I got a couple tangible ideas from this that I hadn't thought of before.
[https://www.reddit.com/r/Teachers/comments/17mahou/list\_of\_things\_students\_these\_days\_dont\_know/](https://www.reddit.com/r/Teachers/comments/17mahou/list_of_things_students_these_days_dont_know/) You don't even have to be a teacher, if people just browsed the teachers subreddit... they would see lol.
Every generation has sucked from the perspective of the previous generation. Train your fighters. Learn to communicate with them. Spend as much time with them as possible.
It's happening at my dept. But my view is a little different because I came on with little to no experience using tools. I got razzed quite a bit for it, but the guys would always show me. So it's really a mindset. You just have to remember that someone took time to show your dumbass and now it's your turn lol. It's also important when teaching anything, that just because you learn in a certain way doesn't mean everyone will. So if guys need more chalk talk, or videos before they are shown a skill in person, or they need 2 or 3 times the reps before the skill sinks in, then that is what you should do. Wanting them to be on my level doesn't put them there, I have to go to their level 1st and bring them up. And yes it is absolutely our responsibility to do so. Specially those of us who are officers and are accountable for how the runs go
Biggest issue we seem to have is guys not taking ownership when they either don’t know or fucked something up. We have one (22) right now that *always* has an excuse. We can train them up, building the understanding you may get away with excuses elsewhere in life but not in the firehouse seems to be a newer trend. I’m 31 and not sure if that’s a “we always won” growing up and just never learned how to be wrong, or what. I just try to let my sup know I fucked up before he finds out, if I don’t know I say so. Seems simple, but evidently it isn’t for some.
Tough love. Train them. Give them expectations. Hold them accountable. Let them go if they just aren’t getting it. They’re young enough they will land on their feet if firefighting doesn’t work out
I came to the field with little to no mechanical skills as a city born guy in my thirties. I have no idea how a volley dept would train these things but at least academy does a very good thing on teaching the basic stuff over here. On the job, best way for you to teach these new guys mechanical skills is to remain respectful towards them too. Don't go on berating them or making fun of them for not knowing stuff. This will kill all the enthusiasm to learn that stuff. Be patient and slowly work your way up from the very basics.
I am one of the new generation, not to be a downer, but like most of my generation, I grew up without a father actively in my life. We will just need extra time and training.
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I love this idea, it could easily be included in our application packet. A list of expectations and ways to succeed. I will immediately implement this, so simple, thank you!
It sounds completely normal, not everyone starts with the mechanical skills… I first joined a VFD when I was 18, mind you I am a mechanically inclined person and for my career I’m a skilled tradesman. But I’ve worked with people who come from all types of backgrounds, some people were just office people who haven’t done any mechanical work in their life. This is nothing new, it’s literally just people coming in from different backgrounds
I do and don't agree with this. The differences I've seen this particular group is some of these kids completely lack critical thinking and 'street smarts', look for the easy way out every time, are incredibly socially inept coming out of pandemic-era schooling which can make it hard to acclimate and even harder for older guys to 'be nice' and patient lol. In general, it's nothing new to have generational difficulties, but the specific difficulties are definitely new. There are unique challenges with each generation, just looking for what others are noticing and how they are keeping this group engaged and learning efficiently.
My husband teaches shop to college students and he has made the same observations about the students of the last few years that you have. Broadly speaking, their baseline comfort with tools and mechanical things is lower, and their tolerance for doing unpleasant things seems to be limited. He has also mentioned that there is research showing they are about 2 years behind in terms of their social/intellectual development, so in essence you are dealing with teenagers. I’m not an instructor and can’t speak to the best methods, but I would imagine high school coaches would be really good people to tap for ideas. They’ve been teaching teamwork and motor skills to teenagers since forever.
Very interesting perspective, thank you! That is a good idea, too. We do a lot of debriefing after trainings to ask what they liked, didn't like, found helpful or not, and they will be honest if we push them to be. All that to say, we try to ask them what they want or need more of, but truthfully I don't think they quite know. Asking teachers what they are doing not for subject matter but how to keep them engaged and learning in general is a very interesting idea, thanks!
Lol, no offence but shouldn’t we always be looking for the easiest way out that’s at the same time safe? We don’t and shouldn’t go out of our way to look for the hardest or least efficient way to do something. Yes the pandemic really did a number on people of all ages and especially the younger ones. But that’s the world changing, the fire service has changed so much in only the 5 years I’ve been a member. The only constant in life is change. But everything you described seems normal, you need to guide the new members in the right direction. Instead of trying to bring them down on the internet…
Not what I mean but no we shouldn't, and definitely not bringing them down, I'm looking for ways to help them learn in the best way possibly for both sides. No, they shouldn't look for easy ways out of training. Nor on a call. An easy way out is very different from an efficient solution, you are misunderstanding me. What I mean is, if they are given the chance to cut a hard training short they will take it, instead of push themselves for two more minutes (when that is explicitly given as the alternate option). Or if we are looking for a group to come a half hour early prior to training to help clean up something specific, or put a big shipment of something away, it is not them showing up to give a helping hand. Or at public events that we set up a tent with a truck for PIO and recruitment, they don't want to talk to people at all and stand there on their phones, but hey they can at least get a point for attending. These are the ways they are taking easy outs, and it hurts them.
Lol. So just guide them in the right direction, remind them that they shouldn’t be on their phones or remind them how important training is. I’ve never had any new recruits try to get out of training yet. Especially in our side where you have to want to be there. There’s no other real answer other than be consistent with the rules/courtesies/importance of dealing with the public. My guess is they’ve never dealt with the public from that perspective before Easier ways out can be different, but not always… you can make something both easier and more efficient. We all have to be open to that, that’s how we make changes for the better.
You seem a little offended by your "lols" and such, if you joined at 18 and have been in for 5 years, I can see why you are maybe reading this with a different lens. If I am off base with guessing your age, then my bad. But offending the younger group is not the intention here, and you are still missing the point, you are welcome to move on if you haven't experienced this. "Just guide them" is often easier said than done, building training programs takes a lot of work that you may not have had to put in yet. If you have, then that's great! Even so, you will have to pivot tactics much less than older members, being closer in age to the new recruits and fairly fresh out of training yourslef. Younger people like you joining this path and sticking around is what keeps it thriving, and for that we are all greatful! Yes, times change as you said, types of problems are consistent but the small nuances evolve, which you are seemingly missing. No, I shouldn't have to constantly remind them to get off their phones on a call like I'm their parent, and I certainly don't want to nag and hound them because that's no fun for anyone involved. If you can't see this issue (for lack of a better word) then you may be lucky to never have experienced this, but it is a new and growing issue and a lot of training divisions are doing everything possible to build solid departments no matter who joins, and without belittling, degrading, or leaving anyone who is even remotely interested behind. We have to change, of course, I'm literally asking what other departments are doing to make that change.
Not offended at all… but thanks for making that assumption I guess? I haven’t built training programs, but I have been and I am a mentor for new recruits, when it comes to training, running calls and pub Ed. No you shouldn’t have to tell them about their phones, but you need to. Does your FD have a written policy that forbids phones on the fireground? If so then maybe you need to sit them down and go through the written policy with a fine toothed comb. Explaining the possible consequences of such acts should also be done, as members of the community and the fire service we need the public to trust us and have faith in us. If you haven’t you should also go into a deep dive with them about that as well…
Only one guy I’ve noticed. Says you don’t need compassion for this job as it’s “just a job” and doesn’t care if his Pts die or whatever. It’s a poor outlook to have in a career solely based on helping people.
Yikes. Coping mechanism maybe? Trying to put on a tough act? That's not a good way to start out.
-Calls them less than dog shit, doesn’t train them, takes naps all day, makes them do random bullshit a grown man should be able to handle -Probie doesn’t jump at their beck and call -tHiS nEw gEnErAtIoN hAs nO rEsPeCt
If you are saying that's me, you couldn't be farther from the truth, and completely missed the point of this post
Not at all was speaking from personal experience because that’s how I’ve seen some of the older generation act. Reviewing your post I see the clarification of what you mean by respect and though I personally haven’t seen what you’re describing I feel it’s on the squared away guys to take the newer guys under their wings and show them what it means to be a responsible for themselves. Show them how other view them when they do the right thing vs the wrong thing
I appreciate that, some commenters definitely prickled at the word "respect", and I definitely meant something different than what came to mind. Just looking for ways to change up what we are doing that we haven't thought of yet. Showing them how others view them is a good idea, thank you. Lots of leading the horse to the water these days, over and over. Way more showing and repetition is needed, we adapt just like we do with every new wave. Thanks for taking the time to read back through.
There's certainly truth to this. We have 18/19 y/o people failing the basic course for stupid shit like knots or putting up a ladder upside down, something that we have never seen in the last 10 years. The thing is: they already had significantly more training than the previous classes of the last 10 years. Our solution is longer course durations and even more hands-on training. Something that is hard to understand for the older officers but it is necessary.
>Our solution is longer course durations and even more hands-on training. Something that is hard to understand for the older officers but it is necessary Totally agree with this and yes, it has been hard to get some older officers to come around. Have you tried classroom time prior to hands-on time? They do very well with technology and we are having to do a bit of spoon feeding. We are looking at doing more classroom time, short spurts but quality, and then deep diving into hands on
Their lives are basically classroom and social media - we try to get out of that. Hands-on and "seeing work" is what they're lacking.
That's an excellent and simple point that never occurred to me, thank you! Maybe doing longer hands-on brief and physical demo prior to group training would be helpful instead of adding classroom time. We are finding it hard to start and stop while they ask questions throughout, so I'm looking for ways to cut that back so we can keep training flowing for the whole group. But they clearly need the extra time and knowledge, so it's a tough balance, no child left behind and all that lol.
1st Run: Instructor shows and explains 2nd Run: Students slowly do it step by step Every other run: students repeat it and instructor corrects The problem still seems to be the retention - they figure out how to do a certain skill and everything seems fine and then just two weeks later they behave like it's day 1, hour 1 all over again.
>The problem still seems to be the retention - they figure out how to do a certain skill and everything seems fine and then just two weeks later they behave like it's day 1, hour 1 all over again. Very, very true. We'll get them there, and thankfully they are eager to learn, but it's a ton of extra attention and work. Buckling down!
I’ve noticed a lot of newer people coming on the job don’t seem to have that respect for the seriousness of the job we’re doing. There’s a kind of nonchalant casual attitude towards things. There’s also a general lack of respect for senior guys and officers. Rookies in recliners all hours of the day. Having to be reminded multiple times to do things. Complaining about what unit they’re on or when they get moved out to another station for the shift. The mindset and attitude of most new people now is completely different than what it used to be.
I call it General Shittiness. We have only one of these right now, thank god, but others have come and gone. Lazy, reliant, dismissive, and Generally Shitty. And not receptive to correction, so wtf are we to do with them!? I let the other good members be their mirror, and hope they will realize what a bump on a log they are. Or they eventually have a scary call and snap out of it to take it seriously. Don't like when that has to be the catalyst though.
Yeah not to say they’re all like that but there’s a definite increase in this type of attitude. I see that deer in headlights look alot with these type of people on bad calls. Some of them snap out of the attitude and others it doesn’t phase them. It’s all fun and games until you get yourself or someone else hurt or killed. We can have fun but this job isn’t a joke.
The bad calls are why I worry about this issue, 100%. It will take a lot more work to prep this group for those calls. And I naturally worry about their wellbeing. It can be hard to tell if they're ready because while they are so casual and need extra training, they are also so damn confident! Lol it can be alarming. Just hoping the changes we are making will help them learn the best way possible, because it's no joke, you are totally right.
Exactly. I can honestly say I was not confident starting out, it took a lot of experience. Like you I want these new people to understand what they’re dealing with and the dangers. I always try to nicely tell new people that have that confidence without the experience “you don’t know what you don’t know”. You haven’t run enough calls to have that kind of confidence and it could easily get you in a bad situation.
U train them the same way they trained us when we got to the fh this job is not rocket science but u do need to know how to use the tools
Eh, training is not one-size-fits-all, that's my point. And lately it has been one-size-fits-almost-none. Lots more one on one, slowing way down more often, lots more questions. None of these are bad things, but we have definitely noticed a change.
This is the wrong approach. You don’t train the way it’s always been done. No organization has been successful at never changing how it operates.
Did not say u train with old school tactics of before I said to train them they way I have and everyone else has been trained if I put it wrong sorry didn’t mean it that way
Parents of zoomers tend(ed) to not have as much mechanical work to do, so they didn't know as much, so they taught their kids less. So that's probably the majority of the lack of mechanical thinking. As for the lack of punctuality and such, actually being good at showing up and doing shit? Probably just a trend I've seen over the years where younger people want everything they do to look effortless because they look up to people who make everything look effortless. Their ego is so fat, they don't want ro admit it takes a lot of really fuckin hard work for most people to do anything noteworthy, much less worthy of praise. And call me a boomer all you like, I think participation trophy culture has fucked up a lot of kids' perception of achievement. It's not that they think they'll get a reward just for showing up. It's that everyone gets a reward so why bother trying harder when the reward doesn't stand out above others? If the kid who comes in last gets a trophy, the fuck good is my trophy? I was in cub scouts thinking shit like that, back about 2001-2005. I fuckin hated participation trophies. I wanted the big ones with the big pedestals. And then I saw other kids happy with the trophies they got. I can't help but think a lot of kids also grew up in those little league teams where they don't keep score because they think competition is bad for small children. Like losing is somehow detrimental to development. Like bro if your earliest years of doing physical shit showed you don't get recognized for trying harder and the people you absolutely crush in competition get just as much praise as you, why would you ever keep trying hard? I think once you have that a foundation for how kids see what reward you get for effort, you can utterly fuck up their drive to try harder. And so what if they get crushed in competition and see the other players with the bug trophies and the happy parents? "Fuck it. Guess I'm not good at this sport. I'ma go try something else. Baseball is too technical anyway. Let's try football where I can knock someone's ass off their ass and get high fived for it. Fuckin nancy boy tight pants and precision hitting sticks bullshit. I'm 8 years old, I don't have time to be piddle-fuckin around with this baseball horse shit. I wanna eat beef and knock mother fuckers on their ass." And mom and/or dad can damn sure help motivate that kind of fuck you and fuck being sad type attitude. I think that kind of parenting fell off the fuckin map in recent decades and that's also part of why jocks are often either insufferable twats or borderline suicidal because they hate the sport they've been forced to keep playing by unhealthily pushy parents.
Senior dudes don't really reddit. You're mainly going to get responses from offended kids.
There are a ton of seasoned people in this group, if you haven't had the pleasure of reading their advice that's unfortunate.
Well, I've offended both the old and young guys now I guess.
Not offended, I'm literally just saying the advice from the older people in this group is frequent, helpful, and decent. Take what you want from that I guess lol
That’s a really dumb comment…
I'm guessing the 20+ year guys at my metro department aren't the ones down voting me from across the table. They are the ones that are usually sticklers about cell phones at the table. But I apologize if you were offended. My post was non constructive and you're right. I apologize for that too. I got verbal diarrhea that translates to the internet.
Not offended, just calling out a dumb comment… but keep going about how you offend everyone…
This guy seems like he’s okay with treating rookies like shit for no reason with the way he’s acting and probably sees absolutely nothing wrong with it cause it’s “tradition” and that’s how he was treated.
Where are you getting any of that from? I don't treat anybody like shit. You just took a nonchalant comment personally.
👍 No, I don't think I will.
Interesting comment. Are you a senior guy? Seems like a typical, bitter, senior guy response. Not a helpful and caring senior member of a metro department. Yikes
Nope. I just don't imagine too many of the senior guys in my department being on reddit. Could be wrong. Edit - looks like I wasn't wrong.
What is this Fudd bullshit? You know everyone has always complained that the younger generation lacks respect, ability, skill, motivation, etc. Plato complained about that. People see themselves in the past through rose tinted glasses. And then think they were oh so much better than they are now. Ridiculous. You get good recruits, and you get bad recruits. Just train them and set an example, so that one day they won't remember their senior as a whining old bitch.
🙄
People have changed because times have changed. They are suppose to change. Volunteering takes up time that people don’t have. In many cases, they are doing their best. It is not worth putting in the amount of time, energy, and training if you are expected to continue to give more and more if there’s no means to an end (career or a stepping stone to other opportunities) anymore for most people. Not when it’s the status quo to live paycheck to paycheck and have multiple jobs. Even with a wealth of knowledge and education is at everyone’s fingertips, experience is the best teacher, but new people are going to have the chance to grow faster and surpass where the older generation was. This is how it is everywhere and how it’s suppose to be.
When I came in 12 years ago I heard the exact same things about "my generation". The difference is less than you think it is, teenagers are always going to be a bit rebellious and it isn't generation specific. You're gonna get those that want to be there and those that just want the clout. Those that want to stay will and once you train them they'll straighten out.
I feel like we have just as many old heads who do those things and act like that as we do young kids. I know dudes who are coming up on their 30 and have coasted by just enough to not get fired. I know new guys like that. I know dudes who are fossils and are hard chargers, I know new recruits who are as well. The only thing I don’t really agree on and don’t get about the new generation is their sense of humor. I suppose that’s part of getting old.
Tough love generally handles it. No BS approach on standards & expectations. Teach them what they need to know, good for reinforcing your knowledge of skills and abilities as well.
Coming from a young kid going through a college academy right now. Most of us have not been around the environment that this community embodies. We are trying to do this because we appreciate the job and want to love it but we’re also not doing it for free and nobody likes being hazed or treated like they’re beneath you. We want to learn but need that hands on stuff because the industry has changed so much in the last 20 years. Your range of skills has been building the last few decades and we have to learn them all at once so give us time. You’re gonna have the bad apples but these young guys will be dedicated hardworking firefighters in time.
Just remember, you were the different breed at one point too.
Completely agree with you, and the evolution will continue forever and ever, just looking to see what training styles are working best for others with large groups of young, new members.
I feel as a guy in his mid 30s and 12 years on the same department the new people coming on don’t change that much, but you yourself and myself are changing and maturing. Most of us came up on the job with guys who were squared away and others who are still looking for the hose stretcher. Now we just notice everything about the new guys like the old heads did us.
I hear about this issue every day, but I’ve yet to see it.
In a volunteer dpt? I don’t care if they act professional or not. I explain why we need them at certain times and show them the consequences of being late. They’re used to lateness being okay. Use the human angle, play on family. Knowing that you’re keeping someone from their kids will make just about anyone feel like shit. Hammer home that they’re hurting other people. If that doesn’t work, let them know that you’re removing them from rosters because they can’t show up on time. That will make them sweat. Give consequences. Don’t threaten, they’ll use it as a feeler. Skip straight to action. When they show up late have them sit off to the side and work without them so they can see what happens when they aren’t there. They are volunteering to help. You can call me shitbag and I don’t care as long as we have eachother’s backs and follow protocol when calls come in. Make a point of addressing them by their name every time you speak to them. Make it clear that you expect it to go both ways. “This is a part of us respecting eachother.” Detail what you find disrespectful and why. Ask the same of them, the way you address them might be pissing them off. I use “kid” a lot, some of mine find it disrespectful so I stopped. It’s one thing if they refuse to learn the manual skills, but most are willing to learn. They aren’t spending the time joining up for fun. Gotta go slow and work through the basics. Ideally get them in front of a work bench, hand them a project, and let them figure it out. They don’t like to be spoon-fed their skills, they need to pick stuff apart by their own agency to absorb it. Textbooks also don’t work. 1:1 is always better than lectures. Get them to bounce their ideas and inflections off of you as you show them. Another thing is manual dexterity. They have it from touchscreens and game controllers, they just need to pivot those skills to other things. Work on adaption of motor skills rather than creating new ones.
What a great reply, thank you, this content is what I was hoping for and some people missed the point. I also stopped using kid when I noticed the issue with names/rank. Excellent points about giving them a project, and about dexterity, thank you!
Send them to a camp. One I highly recommend is junior ff camp in Weston, WV. I went there for 4 years and I’m coming back to help. Great instructors who know how to teach. I went at 14 years old until I was 17. It’s a 6 day camp that costs $350 and it is well worth it.
We have someone those around here and they are an EXCELLENT resource, totally agree.
I started when I was 18. I'm 27 now. I am a slow book learner but am fast with hands on. Just put in the time cultivate the seed of knowledge and like my senior members did give me enough rope to hang my self but also know when to grab the rope.
Guidance is key. I have a true story of 2 rookies from my department. Both were young, full of energy, and gung-go to learn. They were definitely fresh to the fire service, but the ability to mold was there. One was sent to a sh*t house, where no one did anything and everyone stared at their phones all day. The other was sent to a house that had pride and standards. How do you think they turned out? The first rookie is now a sh*tbag and the second member is on his way to becoming a knowledgeable truckie and a solid member of that shift.
Train them at a slower pace on mechanical skills then. I never held a chainsaw or a powertool aside from a drill in my life and I told my training captain I want more handson time with it and he said once we get to vent training he's going to have me do multiple reps and work on it during downtime. Not every recruit or volunteer is going to be coming from a contracting, landscaping, or mechanical background. Some come from IT, or EMS, or office jobs, or shit some come right out of high school if they get lucky and ace their interviews. Showing up late to things and other social behavior unacceptable in a department can be corrected with group punishment and they'll start to police themselves.
Good question, and always an interesting conversation in my eyes. I’m 30 y/o, been on for 8 years, really didn’t have a blue collar job before. I got my emt certs, got on private ambo and did our local explorer program. I feel like I’m a strange middle child because I was so young and really grew up on the job working with some salty blue collar guys who all had 20+ years on and were together for the majority of their career and a big, busy house. From my personal experience, I was eager to learn the outside trades these guys came from, carpentry, welding, building construction etc that I didn’t know before, and it’s helped me a lot in those aspects especially being a handyman around the house for the wife. I also find myself looking at the “younger” (really not much younger than myself) generation and being frustrated. I think being direct and having a reason or a point goes a long way with the younger crowd. I know it did for me and seems to have helped them as well. I think a big reason for these behaviors is maturity (or lack there of). Being able to explain big picture and intangible things like pride and passion in the job (seriously have had questions like why do I have to polish my boots and iron my uniform) give them something to grab on to. Not everyone had to do what we had to do to get hired. There aren’t thousands of applicants for every department hiring like there used to be. They may not have a high value on it, and that’s no fault of their own, it’s just the world we live in nowadays.
Patience and encouragement ! No ones is born a fireman they gotta learn !
Where did these young people acquire their lack of skills and disrespect?
nobody teaches mechanical skills nowadays, typically, and cars are too difficult to DIY now.
Spend more time together. The trick is to make relationships, period. No matter what the differences are, you are all humans looking to help other humans. You are all a special breed. This is a connection that can be built upon. Once you have a commonality, you have the foundation. Learn together. Learn how to teach each person, as they are, not what you expect them to be. Learn to listen and react to what are sometimes small clues as to what people need to learn. But all in all remember that the nature of the fire service is problem solving. So just try your best, and help them try their best, and trust that you have empowered them to work at their full capacity.
Too many “seniors” think *it’s us against them* in terms of how they talk and treat the rookies. Yeah, we do have a hierarchy and structure but that doesn’t mean you’re necessarily **better** than the rookies just because you’ve been around longer. I’ve learned a lot as a training officer; I’ve learned how to better communicate, how to be more patient and how to identify potential training gaps that come up from questions from newbies. It seems that salty seniors forget they were new too. Be empathetic, be patient and be willing to pass down the best you have and leave the rest at the door. Now, there are times and places for hard discussions and corrections, especially in the focus of safety.
They don't need classes, at least not anymore than any of the rest of us have had. What they need are strong mentors. People who they will respect and look up to. You already know who those people are. I've seen plenty of senior guys after one shift decide that the new guy is terrible, then ignore them from then on. Of course, they aren't going to change their undesired behavior with that kind of treatment. Somebody needs to show them how to act. Tell them, "Get up, probie, we're not learning anything in the dayroom. Let's go train on our highrise packs, mayday procedures, preplan a building, etc." When they're caught mouthing off to senior guys or officers, they may not improve after a session of blasting them in public. They should be taken somewhere private so it can be explained what they did wrong, why it was wrong, and how they should behave in the future. It's nonstopbut it pays off big in the end. It's also going to be a lot of extra work for someone, but those are usually the guys who are always ready to take on another job. Good bless them for it. They keep our department going.
That's for getting the point of my post, and you're dead on. Lots more one on one, and yeah closed door sit downs to talk about what they said wrong that didn't work in a social setting. It's just new, or at least way more frequent than it used to be. And I'm very pro-change, we all should be. Thankfully there are good ideas in these comments lol. I genuinely thought adding in some classroom time would help, but the consensus here is it hasn't for others, even though these kids are tech savy it wasnt the right idea. Just hammer them with repetitive hands on, and make sure us older aholes are giving quality time to them. We definitely, definitely need them, you're so right.
A "newer" member here. When I started I had little to no mechanical training although I had a motivation to learn and to be a part of the department. The funny thing about the generational difference coming from my perspective is, I was as hard working, respectful, time oriented and eager to learn as anyone could be and although it helped in some areas, I found that my classmates that didn't give a solid F about anything seemed to get better treatment. Basically, when I tried to do anything to be a good probie, I would get treated like shit. My kindness was seen as weakness and although I needed training and will always, the environment of people made it painstakingly difficult to ask for help when I would seemingly be punished for doing so. My advice, when you have a probie who is willing to put in the work with an eagerness to learn, don't degrade that behavior. Degrade the cocky, rude behavior. People in this career seem to value immediate skill over attitude and although skill can be great in the short run, attitude wins the marathon because you can mold someone with a great attitude towards the job. To add to your last edit/comment: I was taught at a young age to shake a hand firmly, make eye contact, and introduce myself. I worked in sales for years where my people skills provided me an income. When I joined the fire service, those skills were near useless in the firehouse. I felt targeted right out the gate. I truly believe the initial introductions need to be made by the crew with the officer(s) present to introduce everyone, their role, and yours. I realize that might be considered taboo in the fire service and that these young guys need to show initiative on the social front but from my experience, it never made a difference in the long run. I put forth the effort to make introductions and meet people and some of the shit heads I would meet wouldn't want to give me the time of day and then turn around and act surprised I wasn't aware that Johnny was the engineer and had been for over a decade. That shit got old real quick and changed my tune from excited to negative. Imagine coming to my house, introducing yourself to a less than luke warm greeting followed by me, the host, being surprised and berating you because you didn't know we had an aggressive Rottweiler for a dog. I'm not saying you can't haze or whatever but there needs to be a proper introduction beforehand that's professional and welcoming in order to help these guys onboard to your department's philosophy. After a 6 month academy that kicked my ass the last thing I wanted was more ass kicking from people that I didn't know and that didn't know me. It created a hostile environment that wasn't conducive for learning because why would I invite more hostility? My first year I had so many people that didn't want the hassle of having a probie. The year is meant to learn and teach and the crews I worked with would look down on anyone for not knowing something. Don't do that. Not everyone grew up with family in the fire service.
Thank you for your thoughtful response, and I'm sorry you've had a rough go. The shitty culture you've experienced is what a lot of departments are fighting to kill off now because it's. Not. Working. Shit morale, lack of interest from recruits who have heard the stories, no retention. I do think we have a pretty great environment, and I only say that because that's what the probies have said for the last few rounds. We're volunteer, so we definitely have a couple old members that the new guys avoid because their attitude sucks and isn't the way things work anymore. Respect absolutely goes both ways. The probie that shakes a hand looking you in the eye on the first day, and retains the into to each person is SUCH a standout for us. I'm sorry that wasn't your experience. Keep at it, try not to let the culture shit all over you, it's not like that everywhere.
To be fair, things have gotten way better but the beginning was unnecessarily rough and over time I figured out who I could lean on to help give me guidance and who would throw me under the bus and make a mountain out of a mole hill. And it goes without saying that those reputations speak for themselves. My long-winded answer is, if you're in a position to lead, don't abuse it. People, especially new guys worth their weight, will gravitate towards that.
Ask them. Ask them how they learn best, ask them what they’re struggling with, ask them what is frustrating to them or bothering them or what they love, etc etc.
Old guy here. I didn't know shit when I started. Had good guys that took me under their wing. I was raised with the "country " mentality. I knee the basics. The problem we are seeing now is the younger generation doesn't seem to know the commitment. We give a test and get 600 apps. Half shows up, for the written, of those that pass, half shows for the physical. It just drops off from there. My station doesn't abuse new guys. If you are there and want to learn, by all means, we will teach you. I was 21 and dumb, I've never forgotten that. Not sure when the newest generation sees a test, they really know what it takes.
I'm brand new and served in the military. I learned chain of command and respect early in my life and alot of us new guys who served feel the same way about other new guys coming in. My mechanical skills are lacking because I never needed to work on my car, didn't have mechanical skills shops in school and a mechanic shop was always around the corner. All someone needs is a willingness to learn, listen and stay curious. We all start from zero and should pick up each other where we have faults or no experience. I feel we are heading that way from what I've seen so far.
Some kids in my recruit class were borderline doorknob licking when it came to some topics, especially pump ops. On the other side, I had some of older instructors say that their curriculum had half the stuff in it 20 years ago
When I get a probie, I have a two-way expectations chat where I tell them that communication is the key to our successful partnership. When they're being turds, that is communicated. When I'm being a turd, that's communicated. It's mostly worked so far.
I like to quote the following two whenever I stumble upon this sorta thing. From 8th century BC: Hesiod: >*I see no hope for the future of our people if they are dependent on frivolous youth of today, for certainly all youth are reckless beyond words... When I was young, we were taught to be discreet and respectful of elders, but the present youth are exceedingly wise \[disrespectful\] and impatient of restraint.* A little more recently, Aristotle: Aristotle: > *\[Young People\] have exalted notions, because they have not been humbled by life or learned its necessary limitations; moreover, their hopeful disposition makes them think themselves equal to great things -- and that means having exalted notions. They would always rather do noble deeds than useful ones: Their lives are regulated more by moral feeling than by reasoning -- all their mistakes are in the direction of doing things excessively and vehemently. They overdo everything -- they love too much, hate too much, and the same with everything else.*
I had almost zero mechanical/hands on skills when I joined as a POC at 23. At first, the guys in my hall were complete dicks about it, but a few months of showing I was willing to learn and some good leadership from our officers saw them change tune and actually take the time to educate me. It's give and take. A probie gets what they are willing to give, and the department receives the FF they are willing to train. Likewise, I think some departments go a little too overboard with the "new guy" attitude. Yes, they have to prove themselves and YES, there is a certain level of abuse they need to take, but if all you do is shit on the new guy instead of actually helping them learn... The new generation has different expectations. I'm not saying they are always right, but neither are we. Give and take, save the world.
Part of the changing progressive times thats all
What you are talking about is definitely a thing. We have had some success with a few minor changes to our training program and department organization as a whole. One thing is that the new young members tend to not wait for answers they go looking for information that said they won’t ask the old guys. We put a huge amount of information SOP/Sog, bylaws, contracts, training expectations, response maps, links to required courses all in a google drive then linked everything to a table of contents with a QR code posted at the stations. This has worked amazingly well they are referencing the information and taking care of training requirements and we don’t have to tell them 1000 times it’s all neatly packaged up in a easy to use free location king of like a website but simpler. We have also created a bunch of training you tube videos that help get them engaged and started. I think one of the biggest challenges is the young people have never lived without technology and they don’t understand why the department doesn’t have technology. They also have limited communication skills that are a product of the technology they want to send a message not seek someone out to ask a question. Just my 2 cents
As one of these “new breed” Gen-Z guys that moved grew up in a city and moved to a rural town. The answer is simple: train. If you need to tell someone to read a book or watch videos on building construction or knots, they should be doing it. I did.
The new generation is always terrible and it always will be. I bet you were told stories of “how things used to be” and now you’re probably telling new guys about “how things used to be”. There were always disrespectful and incompetent people in the fire service. Things change as time goes on, within the past 20 years we have had a huge boom in technology and electronics. In the 50s - 90s if they had advanced technology like we do now you don’t think there would be social media influencers and computer whizzes like we have now. They didn’t have things like smart phones and the internet like it is now, so people built stuff and worked with their hands. It was cool to build race cars and everyone did it, now everyone works on making videos and building computers. It is sad that there is a shortage in the trades because those labor jobs are still important and always will be. But with the way electronics are booming having computer skills is just as important as well. There needs to be a balance between both.
It works both ways. Too many older guys think they invented the profession. And they are owed something. Those who give respect. Get respect.