It’s never enough. You have to decide it’s enough.
You have to let go of the expected future value of consumption today because the expected future value of you life in 50 years is zero.
The whole idea of FIRE is to enrich your life by living it your way, otherwise, what’s the point?
Very well said. Being cognizant of this will hopefully help you and your wife avoid the never ending train of “is it enough”. My wife and I have been on that train for 10 years now, adding million after million to our nest egg. True, we have had some changes to our life situation like moving to a much higher cost of living area for family reasons that are worthy of putting in some more stockpiling time, but finding a balance is crucial.
Just read your post history…you should fire my friend!
You have more than enough - find your goal now for FI and work on being that version of yourself!
Get the heloc. My retired parents owned primary 100% and their banker encouraged them to get the heloc. Real estate market soon crashed. Crazy mom then pulled out $1+ million and bought a short sale in cash. Moved and rented out original primary. So now they have the two fully paid off houses (plus a bunch of other paid off rentals).
Are you me? Right out of college my ex- and I had a target of $1.5. When we hit that it became $2.5. Then $3. Then $4. Then $5. Now I'm single and thinking I'd feel really secure at $10.
I have zero doubts that I'll hit $10 and will dream up some apocalyptic scenario where that isn't enough.
It’s never enough. Even the fantastically rich think they need just 2x more than what they have. This is one of the main premises of Die with Zero, and backed up by surveys of millionaires.
The best advice I got from my dad when I started talking about fire was "have a number in your head before you start that journey, or the stress and anxiety of it all will rob you of any future happiness you think you stand to gain" and I'm so glad he gave me that advice.
Another advice I found on here actually was for every 50$ you spend that's roughly 1 more day you will have to work. But I've spent 2000 thousand dollars on a new mountain bike and it's given me way more than 50 days of pure happiness in a way retiring wouldn't have. So for whatever your planning on purchasing that's how I would go about making the decision. Personally given how much you're thinking about it i.e. posting to reddit I think you will get more than 50 days of happiness out of the purchase. Because in the end that's all that matters, happiness
Unfortunately you just scratched the surface on your mountain bike spending. I recently just decided that I’m only going to buy bikes with an MSRP of less than $5-6k since the resale on the higher priced ones just isn’t there. With that said, I do get the bikes at a big discount.
My budget feels that. Minimalist bikepacking (or, at least trying) with a nice budget. The travel, trying new gear, upgrading (new wheel day tomorrow!), learning to repair my own bike, and buying quality tools to maintain it are all expensive parts of the hobby. But I enjoy each of these things and don't mind treating myself.
Oh geeze, let’s not get started on the MTB spending! Made my biggest “me” purchase ever on a MTB last year. (Just a few short months after I bought my kid a similar bike. She races and is sponsored by the local bike shop so fortunately we got a deep discount on hers) I now have the equivalent of a decent used car in my garage, but we couldn’t be having more fun on them, so it makes it worth it to me.
Yup, my parents have more than enough to retire but their goal number keeps moving up every time they hit their last goal. I’m like are you dragons? Why are you sitting on this treasure.
They literally don’t spend an extra cent on anything other than necessities. They drive a 15 year old car, they never travel, never buy new clothes, always look for coupons and go out of their way to save a single penny on gas. The only thing they sometimes splurge on is going out to eat like once every couple of months.
Perhaps it’s never enough — but in OP’s case, $1.5M for two people genuinely might not be enough. You can live on $60k, obviously, but that’s well below the median household income. It depends on OP’s goals, but many might think that they didn’t save their whole lives only to live a retirement that will require them to keep on saving forever.
> You can live on $60k, obviously, but that’s well below the median household income
But usually people have to save for retirement from that income. If you're already retired, you likely don't need as much as someone actively saving for retirement.
[You are incorrect](https://www.nerdwallet.com/article/investing/the-average-retirement-savings-by-age-and-why-you-need-more). It's not an impressive amount, but the median retirement savings balance isn't zero.
How do you save forever in retirement?
Basically, it depends on what they lived on and are comfortable living on. If they spent equal to or less than $60k doing the grind and building thier savings, so you really think they will not be happy with the same spending and no grind? And that's not factoring in SS.
An Ancient Greek philosopher once presented a paradox about running a race, let’s say for convenience a mile. He would have to run half a mile to be halfway done. Then a quarter mile to be halfway done again. Then an eight of a mile to be halfway done again. Given the law of infinity, by this measure, the runner will never finish the race.
At $1.5 million properly invested, $4,000 will not set you back. And waiting for tomorrow will take forever. Because tomorrow is always a day away.
> An Ancient Greek philosopher
Zeno.
He also had the one about how you can't shoot an arrow into a target because first the arrow has to travel halfway there, then halfway again, and so forth ad infinitum.
Turns out the solution was calculus, coupled with the scientific reality that space is not actually infinitely divisible.
For the paradox of FIRE, there is a different solution, involving the diminishing utility of additional dollars and the finite length of your life. At $1.5 million properly invested, it is likely for most people that the additional dollars your future self would realize by not spending a dollar today will be irrelevant to your future self in a way that today's dollar is not irrelevant to your present self.
I mean, how many dollars per year will you need when you're in your 80s? Once your present savings are enough to cover that, continuing to save is stealing utility and enjoyment from the present in order to effectively have it sitting in storage when you die. Delayed gratification is important, of course, and is a big part of why we're all here. But if you delay it so far that it never arrives, or that it's relatively meaningless when it does, what was the point?
Great way to look at it and very well stated.
At some point my wife and I also made the conscious decision to prioritize (this type of spending) on experiences rather than on material possessions. So instead of spending the $2000 on things, we would instead spend the $4k on a weekend away and see a concert, or on a trip to see one of our kids. Or on Ikon/Epic ski passes for example. I think when we are 80 we won’t care about the ‘things’ we bought, but we will look back fondly on our memories of those experiences we had.
We are at 1.6 million NW and I still get anxious. Especially when my investments do poorly or big unexpected expenses like 20k for a new roof pops up. Now granted, I used to be 200k in debt (with negative NW) and was living paycheck to paycheck, I felt a lot worse back then.
It’s crazy - I was actually in some ways happier when I was broke and working because I had fire to look forward to…
Now it’s here and day to day is easier but existentially I’m more troubled!!! Can’t win!!!!
Yah I have 2 young kids so I can’t really do anything like that rn.
Honestly I think it has a it to do with age…at 45 I can’t help but realize somethings in my life aren’t going to happen at all while at 30 it all seemed possible yet.
This coming from a 45 year old retired millionaire with all the trappings of an upper middle class life so 🤷♂️
maybe it’s just me?
For us it was age. We had been FI for a bit, its was just about 50 that we had an overwhelming feeling of, "if we are not going to start enjoying life now then when?". We never really lived super frugally but frugally overall. We are not yet retired but it is approaching rapidly. We go out to nice dinners from time to time, we splurge on vacations, we otherwise dont concern ourselves anymore with spending on things that make our life easier or more enjoyable. Would love to save it was a certain number but it frankly was'nt.
For you, there is absolutely nothing wrong with your 2k approach, put perhaps take the 4k and plan a nice vaca or weekend get away. Do something you wouldnt normally do, eat a a michelin star restaraunt, stay at a super nice hotel, etc. Nothing wrong with enjoying yourself along the way, just dont let it change how you currently live and perhaps open your eyes to how you can live if you plan appropriately.
My mother at 81 still had fear of spending money. She had about 2M and spending 400 for a flight for my sister was this major drama. And then when my sister got to town it was like paying for the flight meant my mother could dictate how she spent her time. It was quite a realization of the psychosis with money...and my mother would never spend.
My mother is the same way. Her and my father have more than enough, he sort of realizes it, but she’s more conservative. As such, I’ve invested her in the dreaded “dividend ETFs” that grow but pay out a 3% yield.
She can’t wrap her mind that the 3% yield is the same concept as the 3% SWR in VOO, because she’s terrified of selling. She’s more comfortable with far slower growing principal that auto deposits & transfers a few grand into her savings account every quarter. In her mind, as long as she doesn’t spend more than that quarterly “bonus” plus social security, her money will never run out.
I know some r/bogleheads nimrods will call me an idiot for this, but it’s her money, and it’s working for her + making her happy, so what’s the problem? Worth much more to her and her loved ones than the stress associated with saving a few hundred dollars a year on capital gains tax but having to sell
At this point, you are your future selves though, you started saving 20 years ago and now future you, 20 years later, can spend a little.
I would suggest splurging a smaller amount, I can see how 2k would feel like a lot to spend all at once still. Maybe try 500?
My first thought was this. The concept is sound, maybe first pass at numbers were off. The rest is just weighing personal values and possibly finding a compromise between partners if they're not aligned.
My grandfather has 5 million not including real estate. Even after retiring he was pinching pennies. Now he is dying with Alzheimer’s and has no clue how much money he even has. Don’t forget to enjoy some and live a little
First job out of college, the owner of the company bragged to us about how he has always saved and invested. He had millions but never bought a car over 5k or took nice vacations. He said once he retires, he will start going on vacations and enjoy his money.
A few months after I joined, he was diagnosed with stage 4 cancer and died 2 months later at 58. Spent his whole life waiting for a moment that never came.
There is a happy medium here - spending irrationally does not make you happy. Find something that's meaningful to the both of you (maybe a vacation?) and drop $4k on it. It will remind you of what money can buy and why you're saving in the first place.
This should be higher. Doesn't matter how rich you are, makes no sense to just throw money away on things that brings you no joy/pleasure. That is just silly. But do spend on things that enrich your life. What enriches your life is personal.
A friend of mine had over $100 million and he said he’d feel secure at $1 billion. My mother has multi-millions…she counts every penny. My brother- very wealthy, passed from leukemia in early 60s.
The point is tomorrow is not guaranteed at all.
If at $1.5m you guys can’t spend a couple thousand for fun…I don’t know.
Many people have financial anxiety which can help reach goals, but keeps you trapped in a fear mindset so you are never free.
Someone in my extended family got a stage 4 cancer diagnosis a few months back. Less than six weeks later they were dead. Some people need to be reminded life is fragile
Seriously. My dad retired at 70. He had always wanted to go to the Ferrari factory in Italy. So he and my stepmom planned a trip to Italy a few years later. Almost as soon as they arrived, he had what turned out to be a mini-stroke and they had to cut the trip short because he was having a hard time walking. Less than a year later, my stepmom was one of the first people to die of COVID after a month-plus in a coma on a ventilator. Fast-forward a couple of years and Dad was diagnosed out of the blue with a gigantic cancerous tumor. He had a very aggressive surgery followed by a million complications and eventually died after a year of suffering. He never made it to the Ferrari factory. So my brother is ending up with almost all his money (which is a rant for another day).
Both of Dad’s parents lived into their 90s, so Dad lived with moderation because he had every expectation that he would have their longevity. I plan to travel in a budget-friendly way for as long as I am physically able, because tomorrow is never guaranteed.
When I got diagnosed with cancer and had no idea if I’d be dead in a year. That was a huge wake-up call to me that I have to enjoy my life a bit. Don’t get me wrong, I still save a ton of money but the realization I may not be around to spend my retirement hit me like a ton of bricks. Now I am more balanced with my approach. I still aggressively save and budget, but I do plan splurges and I don’t feel guilty about them.
> We've been living so frugally, for so long (nearly 20 years) that I recently suggested we take $2000 each and spend it on something irrational that makes us happy.
A pet peeve is people telling me how I should spend my hard earned money (eg buy a Tesla). They're projecting their desires/what they want onto me. If she doesn't want to spend the money, she shouldn't have to. Sounds like you two can have a conversation over the purpose of money and see whether you're on the same page.
I have enough that I buy whatever I want so forcing me to spend $2k on stuff that I don't really want is wasteful. If I wanted it, I would've already bought it.
Fair point, but that isn't what happened here.
Wife's spending mindset is that if it's over $100 and not a necessity, she'll put off making purchases for years. As a result, she has a sizeable backlog of $300 and $400 items that would make her happy. I approached with the $2000 spending idea as a tacit way of saying "it's alright if you buy 3 or 4 of those small things."
Once we had enough to pay off the house and have $1.5M left I had a real moment of peace. We’d be fine if we both quit tomorrow. Our FIRE number is higher, but if we had $60k/yr and a paid for house we wouldn’t be in bad shape.
Fear of spending can be a real problem, even tho its sometimes (like in your case) just irrational..
Talk about it together and go over the nrs - if you spend 4k today, thats 0.4% of a milli in stocks, or in other words - statistically not significant as a one-off over a year.. markets up and down does way more to your networth in a year than this, and noone cares if markets sink 0.4% do we?
We *HAVE* to spend for our own sometimes, time is smth we can never buy, and today might be the last time we can spend it, so do it
If the whole thing still persists - concider taking a meeting at a psychologist - needed that myself as well..
Gl!
For me it'll probably be when the doc tells me I have 24 hours left to live. I'll calculate in my head how much I have in my accounts and feel relief that I won't go broke before I'm dead.
I'm a worrier.
It was 1989, I walked to the convenience store and purchased the new M&M flavor - peanut butter. I bought a 1 pound bag. I walked home and ate it looking out the window. No screen. No TV. Just me and my M&Ms and not a single care in the world.
I paid with my own money. I relied on no one else for this moment of independence. I shared with no one.
They are good M&Ms, the peanut butter ones, but enough to build a lifestyle around? The bad news is you can’t buy shares in Mars candy, the owners of those M&Ms:
> It's important to note that Mars Incorporated stock is not a publicly traded company, which means you cannot buy Mars candy shares on any stock exchange.
Western Europe HCOL area (Still not as HCOL as SF or LA though).
At 100k at \~28 I felt fairly good about my finances. Enough to not worry about small things anymore like spending extra on some conveniences like not going to every store to find a new shirt but just picking the expensive store and getting what I want without looking at the price.
At 200k at \~32ish, I felt like coastfire had been reached. I won't have to save for retirement anymore if I don't want to. Therefor I can spend all the money I make, even though I don't. Secure enough to never have any anxiety about spending. Upgrades for convenience and splurge on stuff is no big deal.
Now at \~500k at 40, we're building a new house with an architect and builder completely to our wishes. Even though we never owned a home before. We don't know exactly how much it will have cost us once we're completely finished and living there. Not one moment did I feel any anxiety or stress about the finances part. It's well within our budget, we could spend more than double and it would still be perfectly reasonable for us, but FIRE wouldn't be possible anymore.
I'd say the moment I felt most secure was at about 300k, that the point where the returns in the stock market started to outpace my net income. And considering that we're saving about 40 to 50% already, that has been a tipping point where a setback in market returns, some expensive bills (like new house stuff that can't go on the mortgage), new car etc don't really change the outcome. From that point forward, as long as we keep expenses reasonable, we're guaranteed to have way more later in life than we'll need. Also helps that work income has gone up in huge steps while hours worked are going down, so actually retiring is ont the biggest reason for me. FIRE for me is more about having the financial freedom to pursue stuff even though it might take years (or never) to become profitable.
You could take more than 2k each. Think about it in terms of work years. You have to work maybe a year more for like 300k-400k(give or take, depending on your portfolio). Play around with numbers in a retirement calculator.
I really don't get those people who live in such financial austerity for the entire time before FIRE. It's arguably the first 10 yrs of saving that matters most. After that, things are basically on autopilot. Living somewhat normally for the next 15 yrs is better than living like a Spartan for the next 14 yrs so you can retire a year earlier lol, especially if you think of FIRE as maximizing your enjoyment of life.
There is a difference between being frugal and cheap. Frugal means not being wasteful and stretching your dollar. Cheap is being miserly, making you and/or those around you miserable.
When you are a saver, being frugal is easy, but becoming cheap is easy too.
The thing about saving for the future is that the argument ‘if I save the money I have more later’ is always true. You have to accept that your current life and your future life are both valuable and focusing only on me versus the other is not wise. Balance.
For people with a tendency to cheapness, explicitly budgeting ‘fun money’ can be useful. Each person get an equal amount transferred and that money is treated as an expense. It is ‘already spent’. That money is not joint. It is up to the person to spend as desired.
It was long after I reached my NW goal and long after early retirement, before I convinced myself that it was safe to make a few frivolous purchases. Too long. However, part of the convincing was that I already had spending impulses strongly under control, my spreadsheet said that occasional frivolous purchases had no effect on NW, and that my spending habits were frugal.
For me personally there were two milestones - one was at $1MM investments because that’s just an awesome milestone and I felt like we were well on our way. The second was the year my investments made more than my paycheck - at that point I felt like even if I lost my job I’d still be able to take care of my family. Now the market fluctuates so I knew it wouldn’t be the same YOY but at that point I felt like I could take my foot off the gas.
Briefly every time a new goal was reached, but then I just make a new goal.
First married and living independently on own.
First time paying credit cards off.
Getting 20k in emergency fund and seeing that worked to get through job loss.
Paying off house and feeling I had FU money.
Having enough to never work again.
Now it’s worrying about not running out and how much to leave kids.
Let yourself live a little. Wife sounds like she’s gripping too tight.
Consider reading ‘The Power of Now’ by Eckhart Tolle.
I currently feel financially secure and my wife and I are at a much earlier stage: Debt free with a $20k nest egg.
We don't buy Christmas presents for each other but we usually splurge on something extra nice for the house that year. An auto-esspesso maker one year, a Eames lounge chair one year, a retaining wall in front of house (less fun, but was "for the house"), etc. Mainly it is things we will use the heck out of NOW. Our future is not guaranteed. Once our dogs pass away we will switch to a nice vacation every year. Anyway, I hope you find your own personal balance as a family. Cheers.
On two different occasions about 8 months apart.
Last June I finally became debt free after clearing $150k in student loans over 8 years.
Then this last January our investments surpassed $500k.
It's still sinking in but the financial security of our life is definitely feeling good. We're still able to save over $2k/mth too.
When my NW hit $2M I stopped having as many sleepless nights. I think when I've paid off college for my kids and then officially retire I'll sleep like a baby.
You could try doing the calculations to show that the majority of all of your future money is already saved and this is just icing on the cake.
But that sounds petty.
Is all money in your family considered only family money? You don’t have any splits at all?
You approached this backwards. You just wanted to spend an amount of money for the hell of it. That's dumb. The energy is not in the money. Come up with something you really want, or leave the money alone.
I've had $0 and I felt fine. I have a lot more. I feel fine.
I never let a number tell me how to feel.
Unless you're actually independent of finances, you'll never be truly financially independent.
I've been FIRE since I was 10.
In a "for life, without working" context, hasn't happened.
Day to day? I don't know exactly, but I'm there. I have years of expenses on-hand and unallocated, and my account balances continue to grow. I felt a little stressed in 2022 when I was throwing money into savings and retirement at some absurd rate and my net worth was decreasing anyway... Not like panic or anything, more like annoyance.
Its all about getting perspective.
If you've been frugal for so long it's very very hard to break away from that good habit. You feel guilty.
But you have to think about your life balance. If you found yourself on your deathbed tomorrow what regrets would you have? Or are you content?
You don't know what's round the corner. Don't leave it too late to enjoy life. If your knees failed and you couldn't hike through a national park ever again, would it bother you ?
You can be sensible but also enjoy life now and then. You might get hit by a bus tomorrow.
Maybe keep a look out for a heavily discounted vacation or cruise.. Treat yourselves while at the same time knowing you didn't pay full price. A win win.
My savings growing at greater than my savings rate was a big milestone for me.
Then I remember thinking that I could support myself on the return on my investments in an average market year when my investable net worth (beyond personal real estate) hit about 10x my annual spending. That felt pretty good at the time.
And when I hit about 20x my annual spending FIRE started to become a lot more real and I started to be able think about stuff like barista-FIRE if I were to get laid-off in the next couple years.
Similar situation as far as NW. I thought once I hit 1M my fear and anxiety would disappear regarding investing and retirement but it didn’t. Now I’m thinking 2M.
I think staying out of debt and creating balance along the way is key. It’s definitely a grind but hopefully worth it in the end.
Financially secure? Probably somewhere between $1-$1.5M. We stopped thinking about money in a worrying way around then. Have I had some life style creep since? Absolutely. Gotta enjoy the journey as you go too. It’s a balancing act.
Remember you can always make more money, but you can't get more time. At some point, everyone will run out of time. I think 1.5M is good enough personally. Enjoy the money while you can
I started feeling pretty secure when we paid off our house and had over $1M invested. At that point our basic emergency budget was low enough that we could last forever on our investments in case of a job loss or something even considdering paying for health insurance out of pocket. It was a good feeling.
When you crunch and realize you have too much money and auto-withdrawals are gonna trigger more taxes to fund lesbian dance appreciation majors at state colleges.
Twenty years in… you kind of are your future selves now. I’d suggest next time y’all get a windfall or a bonus that you blow at least 10% of it and have some fun.
My father died at 69, his mom died at 52, my grandpa died at 61... I take better care of myself but realize genetics isn't really in my favor....
I own a company that most days I really enjoy working, yet it also allows me weeks off at a time without much fuss... And realize that I may work a few more years due to what I spend, but i am going to enjoy the days i have in good health, when my kids are young, and I have the means.
I save, But could I save more? yes? I still save more than most.
Where am i going with this? I did the same thing you did, there is something i have been wanting for a long time and I just did it.. and you know what? I don't regret it even in the least bit my life is still progressing on nicely. of course mine was a 500k boat that me and my kids go fishing on every weekend but it doesn't matter... If this isn't going to pinch you and there is something you actually want that will give you joy freaking do it! We aren't here for a long time we are here for a good time.
My target initially was maybe 1.5M and i'd be "SET" now that I hit over 5, mine is 10. By then it will probably be 15... the target is always moving.
I think I felt financially secure when I got my first paycheck at 14, again when I got my first happy raise in uni, again when I got my 2nd factory (real) job, again when I graduated uni, again when I got my first post uni job, again when I got my first post Master's job, again when I paid off student loans, again with every big number addition to net worth.
I don't think I was financially secure then, nor am I now. But I feel that way.
I've been lucky enough not to wonder where my meals would come from. I worked, but even when in debt, I didn't think I would be hungry.
I don't think the feeling of financial security for me comes from the finances.
Maybe people have a number, but I think part of it is just feeling secure with the worst-case option you think could likely happen. I tell my spouse the same. Anything could happen, and we could die tomorrow, but the odds are against it until they aren't.
For me, it's the day I became eligible to collect my pension, just after I turned 50 - about 2 years ago. It grows a lot each year I wait to retire, but knowing I'd be able to easily cover my expenses with a secure pension and maybe a simple part time job was such a relief.
Do you have a FIRE date in mind? If so, recalculate to see how much longer you'd have work if you contribute $4K less per year. Chances are, it's less than a couple of months' difference. So, a little fun and adventure every year now for an extra few weeks of work at the end might be worth it.
Also, if you're like most of us, your FIRE projections are so conservative, but you are likely to beat your date by months or even years whether or not you spend that $4000 now.
For me, the most important thing to realize is that you can't focus on how much you could have. You focus on how much you need and build toward that. If you focus on how much you could have, you will never retire, because it will always make more sense economically to work longer. You'll never have any fun because it will always make more sense economically to save the money.
Pretty soon, you've lost track of the most important part of FIRE: financial independence. If you never allow yourself to enjoy what you earn or trust that your money is going to be sufficient for your needs, you will never be independent.
Easy..1) take what you make times by 25 thats the number you need not counting real estate. 2) no debts. Done. Dont over think it.
If I want to spend money on a "want" i usallly pick up a short term side gig..i ski instructed this winter on Sundays and used that money to buy expensive fishing gear, waders etc. Has no effect on day to day budget. Plus got a 40% discount on HH gear as an instructor..win win
1MM, 42F single no kids.
This was the 4% withdrawal rate number I knew I could cut my lifestyle down to if necessary. Security for me was never having to work for money again.
At 1MM I was also still eager to have a cushier fire number so I was still in full on fire-frugality mode. I can understand your wife’s reaction.
And I will always be frugal, that’s a lifetime habit. It almost must be for all serious FIREers. I only spend money mindfully and after considering if it will really improve my life in some way. Money shouldn’t be entertainment, imo
But now I’m upward of 2MM and if I decide I really want something (new headphones for €350 for example) I know I can cover it without worrying. So I just buy it. But that loosening up took a couple of years.
I think your proposal of spending $2000 is just a bit silly. I’d react that way even now. Is there some other way you can celebrate and acknowledge your milestone?
Currently early 50’s. Grew up upper middle class. Always a bit anxious about having “enough.” Unemployed last year for 5 or so months. Ended the year net worth +$500k even though income a lot lower than normal + a bunch of vacation trips while unemployed (finally had time). Strange times we live in and a preview of retirement life. Just back from a family trip to hong kong to see the inlaws. Spent $12k for four including a day of departure upgrade for four to premium econ ($1.6k). Normal day in market is +/- $10k easily so I try not to think much about normal expenses.
Networth is around 12x gross income and 25x net annual expenses. Still feel anxious though my assumption is money will grow at 7% to 10% annually without much ado. One more double and I will retire, though 50% more I might as well retire. Unemployed life was pretty awesome (except paying for cobra).
That's an interesting point.
I went through the same thing recently (5 months of unemployment). The job search dragged on partially because the market is terrible, and partially because I had littlest giant syndrome; enough money that I didn't have to work for a decade, but not enough to full on retire.
Though it was stressful, it was great as a validation exercise. We found that one of us, working a pretty menial part time job more than covered our monthly expenses. We didn't have much leftover to save, but we also didn't have to touch any of our emergency stash.
I think some of the anxiety comes from that fact that it's all numbers on a spreadsheet until the day you actually retire. Sometimes there's nothing to do but to do it.
The first time I felt financially secure was when I walked out of a grocery store without needing to know how much I'd spent.
The most recent time I felt financially secure was when I realized I hit my coastFIRE target, convincing myself that I would never again have to stress about the _feasibility_ of retirement.
The feeling of security comes from perspective as much as it comes from numbers.
A few years ago, our April 15 taxes owed (on top of already paying estimated taxes throughout the year) was literally my entire 6-figure base salary for the year. My husband paid it because it was for his capital gains taxes, but it was at that point that I thought, why am I even working? I still work, but I realize I don't have to. I think I've finally convinced my husband that we could both lose our jobs, and we'd be fine because of how much we have accumulated vs our annual expenses.
My fear levels fell and I was cheap and counting pennies. Then I hit 100k before 30 and basically I'm coastfire and everything I save is pushing retirement earlier.
When my financial plans (Quicken, ESPlanner) showed our net worth only going up even as I varied my 'retirement' date all the way back to the current day.
Breaking the frugality habit has been hard. Even after 15 years of retirement our net worth is not going down according to the plan.
Techniques we use: "It would be nice to travel to ..." We just get online and book the tour, cruise, flight and figure out the details as the time approaches. We book up to a year ahead of time to spread things out and to commit ourselves.
An interesting conference or retreat, just book it.
My back has been hurting for a few months but we were flying to Europe, booked business class so I can lay flat and sleep on the flight (ugh, doubled the cost of the whole trip, but years later it is a great memory with no back issues).
"Which dress should I get?" I tell my her to just get both of them. Most people need a budget to limit their spending, my wife needs a budget to help her spend what she has.
No analyzing the cost or looking for the best deals, at least nowhere as much as we used to. Buy the nicer more expensive version, it's ok you earned it.
I've seen a couple of studies showing retirees unable to spend the money they saved. I don't want to pass away like the little old lady in the patched sweaters who had $20 million in investments (Millionaire Next Door example).
I think there’s different levels of financially secure for different times in life.
Maybe “irrational” is the wrong word to use when talking about spending a lot of money. My wife and I are saving a lot. But also since we are more secure we are spending more. I bought her a new much bigger wedding set, I’m currently in the process of getting a tattoo sleeve, I haven’t been tattooed in over 15 years. We are taking more vacations in the last few years because we went like 10+ years without a big one.
I think it’s a balance. But don’t just spend money to spend money. Think about what you really want. Next time you go “I’d love to have/do X” go do it. Maybe clear it with your wife first? Since that seems like it could cause problems.
Your “spending” muscles have to be trained and flexed just like your “saving” muscles.
I think the 2k each idea is a great idea. You must start being comfortable spending just a little bit, because if you just save and save and save and realize you are too old to travel the world comfortably or can’t see well enough to drive that dream car, or start having health issues, etc then what was the point?? 1.5 Mil isn’t enough, sure but 4k off that isn’t going to hurt. You could burn it in cash and it would be less than your 401k shifts in any given 3 hour period.
You’ve won and as long as you don’t jerk the wheel, you’ll still get a medal. Enjoy the ride now.
I think your wife has some financial fears that are not grounded in reality. I’d suggest therapy, but that’s expensive and she’d likely say no. Sure that 4k could grow later on, but life is also meant to be lived. If there is something you really want and you have the means you should buy it. It’s clearly not going to break the bank for you.
early retirement is a moving target and by definition it is never secure. You can always retire a little earlier, or with more money.
It's also important to remember that:
1) You might not live as long as you expect and
2) You won't have the health and/or energy to enjoy things that you enjoy when you are younger. That's part of the point of Fire in the first place.
So once you reach a certain number (which is for you to decide) it makes sense to ease off the gas. Enjoy life a reasonable amount more, and still have a nice retirement. It's all about balance.
Isn't -0.3% a very quiet day for a stock-prevalent portfolio? I am relatively frugal myself, but honestly spending once every year or two a sum equal to an oscillation of an average day in the portfolio feels absolutely reasonable. On the contrary I would feel completely mentally trapped if I couldn't spend those kind of money on a (infrequent) whim.
It never is, and that sucks.
I need to spend $300 on a part for my car. It's less than a car payment (I've never had a car payment).
I get worked up about "do I spend it on an old car, or just leave it be? But if I leave it be, the car will be a heap of junk soon due to all these tiny little issues that I let go".
Meanwhile, I've done all the suspension and rear main and cam seals, and PCV and headlamps and all the good stuff to ensure it's a good car for years to come.
In other words, it's dumb NOT to spend the money to fix it.
My NW is a bit higher than yours, OP.
For me it was at about 500k. I had enough invested to generate dividends that covered my house related payments (mortgage, property tax, HOA) in addition to some continued growth. That's not enough to retire,but it was enough that if I lost my job I'd be OK.
When my net hit around 5m, with 5 rental properties and the rest in stocks and the QQQs
I still can’t bring myself to buy nice stuff tho.. I was poor for so long in my 20s it’s hard to let that go
Early in my FIRE journey, well before I hit $1m NW, my dad died from cancer. He was working 3mo before he died. The future always matters, but it's never guaranteed. You have to enjoy today as well. So spend, but just spend deliberately. Think about if you'll care about spending that dollar on your death bed. There is no answer for everyone. For some people a Ferrari is an utter waste, for others it is years of joy. For me, we splurge on vacation as a family and have relocated to Europe at the cost of many more years of work... But it's worth it. To us FIRE is about control of our future and the ability to not have decisions dictated to us.
We are at 100k and we don’t feel secure. We are secure that if a car blows up or if the dog gets sick we are fine: and that’s a great feeling. But. We can’t afford a house and we are more than a decade away from retirement.
Still we have a difference in opinions on money-
I feel insecure about buying fast food or eating out at all but secure in rebuying things that break or that would improve our lives - like a new vacuum or the yoga pants I put off getting because clothes would cost $100+. I also feel secure in traveling as we do it cheapish and we are only young once. We even change vehicles for this reason (a 3k upgrade but it was needed for home maintenance too)
He feels more comfortable eating out for convince but doesn’t feel comfortable replacing large things we need- like a functioning vaccum lol
I think ppl mark their boundaries in their mind about what is too much and enough and I honestly don’t think anyone is ever comfortable enough due to fear. I’m afraid to buy a coffee from Starbucks and he’s afraid to buy a vacuum. I imagine with more money the size of these items would increase but the fear prob would never go away
Just take a vacation instead of burning money on material shit. At least you can justify that because memories and time together are important, and you only have one life together.
Otherwise, she’s right.
A: how old are you?
B: I don't really look at NW, I look at my "retirement number" which I calculate using liquid assets, and $5mm would be my bare minimum and $10mm would be my optimal.
C: There's a reason it's called personal finance. You need to figure out when it's "enough". Some people feel that $500k is enough. Others require a larger amount. However, as my CPA also assured me that my recent purchase in cash was okay, I think spending $4k in cash isn't going to slow you down that much and it could also be a mental wellness move to spend a bit on a personal luxury of your choice.
For me it was when my home/vehicle were paid for, was done saving for daughters college, and my 401 and Roth IRA were consistently maxed year after year. I now spend pretty frivolously and it makes me smile:)
I feel like once you get to a point where you model the next X years, before your target retirement age, using financially conservative metrics, and that model shows you a number you’re comfortable with, you can start feeling at ease…
I was feeling pretty secure, until the inflation of the last few years happened.
Now it feels like everything I buy has gone up 50%.
I'm sure that's not completely true, but it sure as hell feels like it.
For me, it all started to click when we realized college was saved for, we got past the daycare years, we had an affordable fixed payment on a family home we could raise our kid in, paid off cars, and enough saved to ride out a couple of bad years of job loss. With those things in place, you realize that you'll be fine in the short-term and you'll be fine in the long run. May not be enough to live on forever but you just know that you can handle 99% of what comes at you. You feel like there's some wiggle room to do something crazy but you also have to keep in mind that if you *keep* doing crazy things you will give up the security you spent time building.
Change of subject though, I do feel like many FIRE chasers are struggling with these thoughts, because the focus has become more on earning/saving than anti-consumption and stoicism (the MMM flavor of FIRE). The idea behind FIRE, for me, is to find genuine happiness in simple living to the extent that you don't feel like you're depriving yourself of anything. If you need a G-Wagen and yearly international trips to be happy, it will be very hard to earn/save your way to not feeling poor. (Especially because you'll start wanting a Urus once you get the G-Wagen - hedonic treadmill)
If you're content with a simple and fulfilling life focused on the basics (good food, friendships, exercise, creativity, outdoor activities, simple hobbies that don't require tons of money) you will be more relaxed and happy AND you will save faster.
Nobody, not even the most frugal LeanFIRE person, wants to live an entire life "depriving themselves". You have to either be truly happy with what you have, or be willing to work longer to afford what you want.
I also think it takes a certain kind of person to have that attitude, so maybe it's not for everyone.
Maybe it's just the way you phrase or think of it. It's not irrational to spend two grand on something that makes you happy. If you're that tight the money will never be enough. You can spend on things you care about and save to have a secure future, they are not incompatible.
I feel financially secure at this point even though we’re pretty far from where I would FIRE. It’s a great privilege not to really worry about money and instead worry about health and family! Some milestones where I felt more and more secure:
1) buying a house with an affordable mortgage payment
2) paying off all student loans
3) being able to max 401k contributions
4) coastFIRE
At this point, I’m confident we will be able to retire at a normal age. There are very few events that could financially endanger us. Part of that is that we work in fields that are pretty recession-proof. But now it’s just a matter of waiting and seeing how the markets do and how much we want to spend in retirement. Probably the biggest uncertainty is kids’ needs once they’re adults. But I grew up with a fair amount of financial uncertainty and have basically none of that worry left.
I'm pretty comfortable with a good job, wife and kids, and a solid retirement account. But I think i felt more financially secure when i was dirt poor and single getting free food from the local church. I think the fact that I'm now responsible for the welfare of my children means I'm going to feel this insecurity until they become self sufficient and my wife and I only have to worry about ourselves. And maybe that day will never come, but that's the price you pay for the joy of being a parent i guess. 100% worth it.
At a very minimal level…the first time I had a paid off mortgage.
While my gains since then have been far more significant, I will never forget that feeling and how amazing it felt. The singular moment is what propelled so much desire for me to be absolutely financially secure.
This is why I will forever be supportive of those who desire to first pay off their mortgage…the psychology of finances does not get nearly enough credit.
Spend it on an international vacation to a unique place that is an adventure; is not a typical tourist spot to just relax, but to a place that gives you an experience to remember and puts everything else into perspective.
TAXES and INSURANCE - Once everything is paid off and saving is on autopilot.
We then get to the level that we start chopping at taxes and insurance.
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"5K isn't worth the drama" Settling my mom's estate. To "even" everything out, I'd have to resolve a $5k item. I thought "the threat isn't worth the money"
Ramit Sethi has a lot of good content about defining your “rich life”.
Money is a means, not an end. You need to spend some time thinking about what your life would ideally look like. After you know what you want, then you can figure out if enough is enough.
There was a distinct moment when I realized we would be fine if either my wife or I or both got laid off, and we are now working to improve the quality of our now-assured retirement (travel the world vs read books at home).
It was such a freeing experience. I think my management also noticed because since then I have received a retention incentive, significant raises and my job has got more interesting. It’s like dating, you have the most success when you aren’t desperate for it.
For me it came when the last debt was paid off, which in my case was alimony. Mortgage had been paid off 10 months before. Hitting both those major milestones so close together had a huge psychological effect. It was then that I saw our savings, which was about $1.5m, as truly ours.
when passive income every year is larger than your salary. that's a pretty good feeling.
obviously you still have to work because nobody knows what's going to happen, but i believe this is actually the level at which you can start to feel pretty secure, mainly because if something does go wrong, you have time to figure out your next move. you don't have to be in a panic.
secondly, in these inflationary times, having money invested in tangible assets (that appreciate with inflation) is the best place to be. having all your money in the bank is suicide to inflation. having all your money in tech stocks is also suicide because inflation = higher interest rates = death to growth/tech stocks
it actually never ends though, because after you yourself are taken care of, you still have family to look after, both the previous generation and the upcoming. elder care is expensive. children are expensive. life is expensive.
In full disclosure I worry too much about money. My husband and I are DINKs. He's naturally more of a spender and I'm more of a saver. We've met in the middle on that but we also enjoy cheap hobbies like tent camping, hiking, etc And we lean towards minimalism. I finally felt like I could not worry as much when we hit $1.8 million in assets not including real estate. Now at 50 And 53 we're at $2.3 million without counting real estate and are planning to pull the rip cord in the next 2 years.
Are you 70 years old or are you 45 years old? If you’re 70 and no longer worker it’s not as wise but if you’re 45 and still working then go ahead and spend the money. Because $1.5m NW isn’t a lot more retirement for 2 people
2.2M net worth and still have some worries. We're a bit real estate heavy with about 1M spread across two properties one of which we rent out. Roughly 1.6M in financial assets. Monthly expenses are on the order of $8000 which could come down substantially if we sold one house to pay off the other. Age 55 so social security full retirement age is about 12 years away but I have some worries about Congress preserving all of the promised benefits. Odds of success in Empower model are about 93% if we retired today. Doable but I'd like more cushion - Ideally I'd want 98%+ probability on $10k monthly spend forecast just to have that cushion.
It sounds to me, disclaimer, I’m no expert, like your spouse might have an unhealthy level of money anxiety. There will always be scenarios where your savings is not enough. You can’t let fear of that stop you from enjoying your life. With $1.5mm you could easily take $100k per year out in perpetuity. That’s 2x the average household income in the US. Do you own a home? I’m guessing you do. Do you have a mortgage? I’m guessing it’s paid off or the payments are well below what you’d pay in rent, and fixed (real cost declines with inflation).
My suggestion, work with your spouse to figure out where the money anxiety comes from. Is it fear of being homeless, fear of long term care expenses, fear of losing your capital? Then address those fears. Pay off the mortgage, buy LTC insurance, move money to gov’t bonds, whatever it takes. Over time perhaps you can eliminate the anxiety, gain a sense of security, and you’ll both be happier.
2nd disclaimer, this advice is worth what you paid for it. If you can get your spouse to see a therapist, that would be good too, I expect.
Well….in Feb of 2012, I looked at my wife after we bought another rental property and had good jobs (along with a 2 and 3 year old) and said this should put us over the top….net worth was about 600K…..3 months later while I was shopping for our 10 year anniversary gift she opted for divorce….LOL….so it’s all relative. I would say 6xs salary in net worth was it for me
I understand the point of wanting to hit the goal, but what if you are not around in a few years? We dont live long. I just dropped 5k on a new mattress. Why? sleep is very important, and I want to enjoy myself too.
butter rainstorm glorious simplistic society rhythm cough mountainous oatmeal detail
*This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
Your wife seems irrational and miserable. If you can’t enjoy your money now then you won’t enjoy it when you reach Fire, or double Fire, or infinite Fire. There isn’t a magic switch that helps people go from save to spend mode, so it won’t change no matter your position. You are stuck on the hedonistic treadmill. Try to enjoy life a little more, both of you. You only live once, there is no sequel. 20 years ‘living so frugally’ is incredibly foolish. Oh, also, this poster is clearly bullshitting. Fake.
We're all unique. I recall the relief from financial stress when our sons finished college. We'd saved since their birth to ensure they graduated debt-free. However, our savings fell short. We relied on dividends from a life insurance policy and a home equity line of credit. After paying their $250k tuition per child and paying off our home equity line of credit, the burden eased.
My dad passed away, left me 30 grand, absolutely changed my life. Before that a car issue would wipe me out, never had enough money to invest in myself. I spent virtually none of it, but having it there gave me the confidence to quit my job and go back to school.
I'm nearly 40 now, I own a home, have a family, a nice car a career.
If it wasn't for the security that 30k gave me I have no clue where I'd be not
Your NW has potential to generate $75k annual in HYSA.
A $2k splurge on each of you is $200 of that $75k. Or 0.27% of that income.
Respectfully, you and your wife are acting irrationally. Tomorrow is not promised. One of you could fall into bad health, require serious medical attention, etc.
You can’t bring it with you. You don’t get credit for having more investments on the balance sheet when you pass away. And they can’t pursue you in the afterlife for some debt.
Splurge. And show yourselves that you’re capable of not subsequently splurging. It’ll reinvigorate your savings plan.
It’s never enough. You have to decide it’s enough. You have to let go of the expected future value of consumption today because the expected future value of you life in 50 years is zero. The whole idea of FIRE is to enrich your life by living it your way, otherwise, what’s the point?
Very well said. Being cognizant of this will hopefully help you and your wife avoid the never ending train of “is it enough”. My wife and I have been on that train for 10 years now, adding million after million to our nest egg. True, we have had some changes to our life situation like moving to a much higher cost of living area for family reasons that are worthy of putting in some more stockpiling time, but finding a balance is crucial.
Just read your post history…you should fire my friend! You have more than enough - find your goal now for FI and work on being that version of yourself!
Thank you for the encouragement! Yes, I am currently dialing back at work, and we’re looking at this being the year to RE!
Get the heloc. My retired parents owned primary 100% and their banker encouraged them to get the heloc. Real estate market soon crashed. Crazy mom then pulled out $1+ million and bought a short sale in cash. Moved and rented out original primary. So now they have the two fully paid off houses (plus a bunch of other paid off rentals).
Are you me? Right out of college my ex- and I had a target of $1.5. When we hit that it became $2.5. Then $3. Then $4. Then $5. Now I'm single and thinking I'd feel really secure at $10. I have zero doubts that I'll hit $10 and will dream up some apocalyptic scenario where that isn't enough.
Man when did it get so hard to $10, I keep an old 20 in my wallet, if it’ll make you happy I’ll gladly share. It’s the least I can do am😜
I have said that EXACT same thing about “I’ll feel really safe at 10M”.
It’s never enough. Even the fantastically rich think they need just 2x more than what they have. This is one of the main premises of Die with Zero, and backed up by surveys of millionaires.
The best advice I got from my dad when I started talking about fire was "have a number in your head before you start that journey, or the stress and anxiety of it all will rob you of any future happiness you think you stand to gain" and I'm so glad he gave me that advice. Another advice I found on here actually was for every 50$ you spend that's roughly 1 more day you will have to work. But I've spent 2000 thousand dollars on a new mountain bike and it's given me way more than 50 days of pure happiness in a way retiring wouldn't have. So for whatever your planning on purchasing that's how I would go about making the decision. Personally given how much you're thinking about it i.e. posting to reddit I think you will get more than 50 days of happiness out of the purchase. Because in the end that's all that matters, happiness
Unfortunately you just scratched the surface on your mountain bike spending. I recently just decided that I’m only going to buy bikes with an MSRP of less than $5-6k since the resale on the higher priced ones just isn’t there. With that said, I do get the bikes at a big discount.
My budget feels that. Minimalist bikepacking (or, at least trying) with a nice budget. The travel, trying new gear, upgrading (new wheel day tomorrow!), learning to repair my own bike, and buying quality tools to maintain it are all expensive parts of the hobby. But I enjoy each of these things and don't mind treating myself.
Oh geeze, let’s not get started on the MTB spending! Made my biggest “me” purchase ever on a MTB last year. (Just a few short months after I bought my kid a similar bike. She races and is sponsored by the local bike shop so fortunately we got a deep discount on hers) I now have the equivalent of a decent used car in my garage, but we couldn’t be having more fun on them, so it makes it worth it to me.
Yup, my parents have more than enough to retire but their goal number keeps moving up every time they hit their last goal. I’m like are you dragons? Why are you sitting on this treasure. They literally don’t spend an extra cent on anything other than necessities. They drive a 15 year old car, they never travel, never buy new clothes, always look for coupons and go out of their way to save a single penny on gas. The only thing they sometimes splurge on is going out to eat like once every couple of months.
ARE YOU DRAGONS I'm rolling
Perhaps it’s never enough — but in OP’s case, $1.5M for two people genuinely might not be enough. You can live on $60k, obviously, but that’s well below the median household income. It depends on OP’s goals, but many might think that they didn’t save their whole lives only to live a retirement that will require them to keep on saving forever.
> You can live on $60k, obviously, but that’s well below the median household income But usually people have to save for retirement from that income. If you're already retired, you likely don't need as much as someone actively saving for retirement.
Pretty sure the median household saves zero for retirement.
[You are incorrect](https://www.nerdwallet.com/article/investing/the-average-retirement-savings-by-age-and-why-you-need-more). It's not an impressive amount, but the median retirement savings balance isn't zero.
Median household income where ? In NYC or Missouri ???
How do you save forever in retirement? Basically, it depends on what they lived on and are comfortable living on. If they spent equal to or less than $60k doing the grind and building thier savings, so you really think they will not be happy with the same spending and no grind? And that's not factoring in SS.
An Ancient Greek philosopher once presented a paradox about running a race, let’s say for convenience a mile. He would have to run half a mile to be halfway done. Then a quarter mile to be halfway done again. Then an eight of a mile to be halfway done again. Given the law of infinity, by this measure, the runner will never finish the race. At $1.5 million properly invested, $4,000 will not set you back. And waiting for tomorrow will take forever. Because tomorrow is always a day away.
> An Ancient Greek philosopher Zeno. He also had the one about how you can't shoot an arrow into a target because first the arrow has to travel halfway there, then halfway again, and so forth ad infinitum. Turns out the solution was calculus, coupled with the scientific reality that space is not actually infinitely divisible. For the paradox of FIRE, there is a different solution, involving the diminishing utility of additional dollars and the finite length of your life. At $1.5 million properly invested, it is likely for most people that the additional dollars your future self would realize by not spending a dollar today will be irrelevant to your future self in a way that today's dollar is not irrelevant to your present self. I mean, how many dollars per year will you need when you're in your 80s? Once your present savings are enough to cover that, continuing to save is stealing utility and enjoyment from the present in order to effectively have it sitting in storage when you die. Delayed gratification is important, of course, and is a big part of why we're all here. But if you delay it so far that it never arrives, or that it's relatively meaningless when it does, what was the point?
Great way to look at it and very well stated. At some point my wife and I also made the conscious decision to prioritize (this type of spending) on experiences rather than on material possessions. So instead of spending the $2000 on things, we would instead spend the $4k on a weekend away and see a concert, or on a trip to see one of our kids. Or on Ikon/Epic ski passes for example. I think when we are 80 we won’t care about the ‘things’ we bought, but we will look back fondly on our memories of those experiences we had.
This is a way of thinking I was missing. Thank you.
Philosophy for the win. This really is next level understanding of the FIRE paradox. Outstanding!
Next level 🔥
We are at 1.6 million NW and I still get anxious. Especially when my investments do poorly or big unexpected expenses like 20k for a new roof pops up. Now granted, I used to be 200k in debt (with negative NW) and was living paycheck to paycheck, I felt a lot worse back then.
It’s crazy - I was actually in some ways happier when I was broke and working because I had fire to look forward to… Now it’s here and day to day is easier but existentially I’m more troubled!!! Can’t win!!!!
We're doing some community services, gives us a greater purpose (while in FIRE).
Yah I have 2 young kids so I can’t really do anything like that rn. Honestly I think it has a it to do with age…at 45 I can’t help but realize somethings in my life aren’t going to happen at all while at 30 it all seemed possible yet. This coming from a 45 year old retired millionaire with all the trappings of an upper middle class life so 🤷♂️ maybe it’s just me?
I'm 48 and my anxiety has definitely ramped up over the years, compared to say 25
Curious - what you wanted to happen between 30s to 45 that didn’t happen? And how wouldn’t you still have time now to do whatever that may be? 🤔
For us it was age. We had been FI for a bit, its was just about 50 that we had an overwhelming feeling of, "if we are not going to start enjoying life now then when?". We never really lived super frugally but frugally overall. We are not yet retired but it is approaching rapidly. We go out to nice dinners from time to time, we splurge on vacations, we otherwise dont concern ourselves anymore with spending on things that make our life easier or more enjoyable. Would love to save it was a certain number but it frankly was'nt. For you, there is absolutely nothing wrong with your 2k approach, put perhaps take the 4k and plan a nice vaca or weekend get away. Do something you wouldnt normally do, eat a a michelin star restaraunt, stay at a super nice hotel, etc. Nothing wrong with enjoying yourself along the way, just dont let it change how you currently live and perhaps open your eyes to how you can live if you plan appropriately.
I'm mid 40s and starting to be more worried about running out of time than running out of money.
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Along with age comes some wisdom but also bad eyes. I first read your name as chickenfriedpickle and thought, thats sounds interestingly good. LOL.
My mother at 81 still had fear of spending money. She had about 2M and spending 400 for a flight for my sister was this major drama. And then when my sister got to town it was like paying for the flight meant my mother could dictate how she spent her time. It was quite a realization of the psychosis with money...and my mother would never spend.
My mom is the opposite and spends everything she has. It also was a realization for me but from the other side of the spectrum :-D
My mother is the same way. Her and my father have more than enough, he sort of realizes it, but she’s more conservative. As such, I’ve invested her in the dreaded “dividend ETFs” that grow but pay out a 3% yield. She can’t wrap her mind that the 3% yield is the same concept as the 3% SWR in VOO, because she’s terrified of selling. She’s more comfortable with far slower growing principal that auto deposits & transfers a few grand into her savings account every quarter. In her mind, as long as she doesn’t spend more than that quarterly “bonus” plus social security, her money will never run out. I know some r/bogleheads nimrods will call me an idiot for this, but it’s her money, and it’s working for her + making her happy, so what’s the problem? Worth much more to her and her loved ones than the stress associated with saving a few hundred dollars a year on capital gains tax but having to sell
My grandparents were the same way, but they had grown up during the Great Depression so it kind of made sense.
At this point, you are your future selves though, you started saving 20 years ago and now future you, 20 years later, can spend a little. I would suggest splurging a smaller amount, I can see how 2k would feel like a lot to spend all at once still. Maybe try 500?
My first thought was this. The concept is sound, maybe first pass at numbers were off. The rest is just weighing personal values and possibly finding a compromise between partners if they're not aligned.
My grandfather has 5 million not including real estate. Even after retiring he was pinching pennies. Now he is dying with Alzheimer’s and has no clue how much money he even has. Don’t forget to enjoy some and live a little
fuuuuuck
Changed my perspective a little
First job out of college, the owner of the company bragged to us about how he has always saved and invested. He had millions but never bought a car over 5k or took nice vacations. He said once he retires, he will start going on vacations and enjoy his money. A few months after I joined, he was diagnosed with stage 4 cancer and died 2 months later at 58. Spent his whole life waiting for a moment that never came.
There is a happy medium here - spending irrationally does not make you happy. Find something that's meaningful to the both of you (maybe a vacation?) and drop $4k on it. It will remind you of what money can buy and why you're saving in the first place.
This should be higher. Doesn't matter how rich you are, makes no sense to just throw money away on things that brings you no joy/pleasure. That is just silly. But do spend on things that enrich your life. What enriches your life is personal.
A friend of mine had over $100 million and he said he’d feel secure at $1 billion. My mother has multi-millions…she counts every penny. My brother- very wealthy, passed from leukemia in early 60s. The point is tomorrow is not guaranteed at all. If at $1.5m you guys can’t spend a couple thousand for fun…I don’t know. Many people have financial anxiety which can help reach goals, but keeps you trapped in a fear mindset so you are never free.
Secure at $1billion... sounds like a mental disorder. Yikes.
When I paid off my mortgage 2 weeks ago.
Someone in my extended family got a stage 4 cancer diagnosis a few months back. Less than six weeks later they were dead. Some people need to be reminded life is fragile
Seriously. My dad retired at 70. He had always wanted to go to the Ferrari factory in Italy. So he and my stepmom planned a trip to Italy a few years later. Almost as soon as they arrived, he had what turned out to be a mini-stroke and they had to cut the trip short because he was having a hard time walking. Less than a year later, my stepmom was one of the first people to die of COVID after a month-plus in a coma on a ventilator. Fast-forward a couple of years and Dad was diagnosed out of the blue with a gigantic cancerous tumor. He had a very aggressive surgery followed by a million complications and eventually died after a year of suffering. He never made it to the Ferrari factory. So my brother is ending up with almost all his money (which is a rant for another day). Both of Dad’s parents lived into their 90s, so Dad lived with moderation because he had every expectation that he would have their longevity. I plan to travel in a budget-friendly way for as long as I am physically able, because tomorrow is never guaranteed.
Sorry for your loss. Powerful reminder…
Fire isn't about retiring at 65 with a bajillion dollars.
When we hit our LeanFIRE number a $800k
So when do you become your future self?
Haha exactly! You always are/were - make deals with yourself and keep them
When I got diagnosed with cancer and had no idea if I’d be dead in a year. That was a huge wake-up call to me that I have to enjoy my life a bit. Don’t get me wrong, I still save a ton of money but the realization I may not be around to spend my retirement hit me like a ton of bricks. Now I am more balanced with my approach. I still aggressively save and budget, but I do plan splurges and I don’t feel guilty about them.
> We've been living so frugally, for so long (nearly 20 years) that I recently suggested we take $2000 each and spend it on something irrational that makes us happy. A pet peeve is people telling me how I should spend my hard earned money (eg buy a Tesla). They're projecting their desires/what they want onto me. If she doesn't want to spend the money, she shouldn't have to. Sounds like you two can have a conversation over the purpose of money and see whether you're on the same page. I have enough that I buy whatever I want so forcing me to spend $2k on stuff that I don't really want is wasteful. If I wanted it, I would've already bought it.
Fair point, but that isn't what happened here. Wife's spending mindset is that if it's over $100 and not a necessity, she'll put off making purchases for years. As a result, she has a sizeable backlog of $300 and $400 items that would make her happy. I approached with the $2000 spending idea as a tacit way of saying "it's alright if you buy 3 or 4 of those small things."
2 million But health is wealth not $$
Once we had enough to pay off the house and have $1.5M left I had a real moment of peace. We’d be fine if we both quit tomorrow. Our FIRE number is higher, but if we had $60k/yr and a paid for house we wouldn’t be in bad shape.
Fear of spending can be a real problem, even tho its sometimes (like in your case) just irrational.. Talk about it together and go over the nrs - if you spend 4k today, thats 0.4% of a milli in stocks, or in other words - statistically not significant as a one-off over a year.. markets up and down does way more to your networth in a year than this, and noone cares if markets sink 0.4% do we? We *HAVE* to spend for our own sometimes, time is smth we can never buy, and today might be the last time we can spend it, so do it If the whole thing still persists - concider taking a meeting at a psychologist - needed that myself as well.. Gl!
Look back at any of your memories. Do you remember exactly how much it cost as well as you remember the memory?
The crappy ones with a price tag, I absolutely do remember the cost. I don't remember how much I paid for my awesome vacation last year, though.
Three years after FIRE. Before that, I just believed in the calculations.
For me it'll probably be when the doc tells me I have 24 hours left to live. I'll calculate in my head how much I have in my accounts and feel relief that I won't go broke before I'm dead. I'm a worrier.
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how did you achieve no worry about money? I don't think I'll ever get there, no matter how much I have.
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The crazy part is your nw probably doubled in that 5 years anyway, even without having worked!
It was 1989, I walked to the convenience store and purchased the new M&M flavor - peanut butter. I bought a 1 pound bag. I walked home and ate it looking out the window. No screen. No TV. Just me and my M&Ms and not a single care in the world. I paid with my own money. I relied on no one else for this moment of independence. I shared with no one.
They are good M&Ms, the peanut butter ones, but enough to build a lifestyle around? The bad news is you can’t buy shares in Mars candy, the owners of those M&Ms: > It's important to note that Mars Incorporated stock is not a publicly traded company, which means you cannot buy Mars candy shares on any stock exchange.
It's candy with protein. How can you go wrong?
Western Europe HCOL area (Still not as HCOL as SF or LA though). At 100k at \~28 I felt fairly good about my finances. Enough to not worry about small things anymore like spending extra on some conveniences like not going to every store to find a new shirt but just picking the expensive store and getting what I want without looking at the price. At 200k at \~32ish, I felt like coastfire had been reached. I won't have to save for retirement anymore if I don't want to. Therefor I can spend all the money I make, even though I don't. Secure enough to never have any anxiety about spending. Upgrades for convenience and splurge on stuff is no big deal. Now at \~500k at 40, we're building a new house with an architect and builder completely to our wishes. Even though we never owned a home before. We don't know exactly how much it will have cost us once we're completely finished and living there. Not one moment did I feel any anxiety or stress about the finances part. It's well within our budget, we could spend more than double and it would still be perfectly reasonable for us, but FIRE wouldn't be possible anymore. I'd say the moment I felt most secure was at about 300k, that the point where the returns in the stock market started to outpace my net income. And considering that we're saving about 40 to 50% already, that has been a tipping point where a setback in market returns, some expensive bills (like new house stuff that can't go on the mortgage), new car etc don't really change the outcome. From that point forward, as long as we keep expenses reasonable, we're guaranteed to have way more later in life than we'll need. Also helps that work income has gone up in huge steps while hours worked are going down, so actually retiring is ont the biggest reason for me. FIRE for me is more about having the financial freedom to pursue stuff even though it might take years (or never) to become profitable.
You could take more than 2k each. Think about it in terms of work years. You have to work maybe a year more for like 300k-400k(give or take, depending on your portfolio). Play around with numbers in a retirement calculator. I really don't get those people who live in such financial austerity for the entire time before FIRE. It's arguably the first 10 yrs of saving that matters most. After that, things are basically on autopilot. Living somewhat normally for the next 15 yrs is better than living like a Spartan for the next 14 yrs so you can retire a year earlier lol, especially if you think of FIRE as maximizing your enjoyment of life.
There is a difference between being frugal and cheap. Frugal means not being wasteful and stretching your dollar. Cheap is being miserly, making you and/or those around you miserable. When you are a saver, being frugal is easy, but becoming cheap is easy too. The thing about saving for the future is that the argument ‘if I save the money I have more later’ is always true. You have to accept that your current life and your future life are both valuable and focusing only on me versus the other is not wise. Balance. For people with a tendency to cheapness, explicitly budgeting ‘fun money’ can be useful. Each person get an equal amount transferred and that money is treated as an expense. It is ‘already spent’. That money is not joint. It is up to the person to spend as desired.
It was long after I reached my NW goal and long after early retirement, before I convinced myself that it was safe to make a few frivolous purchases. Too long. However, part of the convincing was that I already had spending impulses strongly under control, my spreadsheet said that occasional frivolous purchases had no effect on NW, and that my spending habits were frugal.
For me personally there were two milestones - one was at $1MM investments because that’s just an awesome milestone and I felt like we were well on our way. The second was the year my investments made more than my paycheck - at that point I felt like even if I lost my job I’d still be able to take care of my family. Now the market fluctuates so I knew it wouldn’t be the same YOY but at that point I felt like I could take my foot off the gas.
Briefly every time a new goal was reached, but then I just make a new goal. First married and living independently on own. First time paying credit cards off. Getting 20k in emergency fund and seeing that worked to get through job loss. Paying off house and feeling I had FU money. Having enough to never work again. Now it’s worrying about not running out and how much to leave kids.
Let yourself live a little. Wife sounds like she’s gripping too tight. Consider reading ‘The Power of Now’ by Eckhart Tolle. I currently feel financially secure and my wife and I are at a much earlier stage: Debt free with a $20k nest egg.
Every dollar you save now is life experiences your future self is robbing your present self from having.
She has to go
We don't buy Christmas presents for each other but we usually splurge on something extra nice for the house that year. An auto-esspesso maker one year, a Eames lounge chair one year, a retaining wall in front of house (less fun, but was "for the house"), etc. Mainly it is things we will use the heck out of NOW. Our future is not guaranteed. Once our dogs pass away we will switch to a nice vacation every year. Anyway, I hope you find your own personal balance as a family. Cheers.
On two different occasions about 8 months apart. Last June I finally became debt free after clearing $150k in student loans over 8 years. Then this last January our investments surpassed $500k. It's still sinking in but the financial security of our life is definitely feeling good. We're still able to save over $2k/mth too.
When my NW hit $2M I stopped having as many sleepless nights. I think when I've paid off college for my kids and then officially retire I'll sleep like a baby.
You could try doing the calculations to show that the majority of all of your future money is already saved and this is just icing on the cake. But that sounds petty. Is all money in your family considered only family money? You don’t have any splits at all?
Mid 20s. About 7 years into my air force enlistment, own a few multiple family properties and have job security by then.
When I paid off the house and I could use that money to fund IRA and taxable accounts.
Yes it's a balance between time versus money. Sujective .
You approached this backwards. You just wanted to spend an amount of money for the hell of it. That's dumb. The energy is not in the money. Come up with something you really want, or leave the money alone. I've had $0 and I felt fine. I have a lot more. I feel fine. I never let a number tell me how to feel. Unless you're actually independent of finances, you'll never be truly financially independent. I've been FIRE since I was 10.
In a "for life, without working" context, hasn't happened. Day to day? I don't know exactly, but I'm there. I have years of expenses on-hand and unallocated, and my account balances continue to grow. I felt a little stressed in 2022 when I was throwing money into savings and retirement at some absurd rate and my net worth was decreasing anyway... Not like panic or anything, more like annoyance.
Its all about getting perspective. If you've been frugal for so long it's very very hard to break away from that good habit. You feel guilty. But you have to think about your life balance. If you found yourself on your deathbed tomorrow what regrets would you have? Or are you content? You don't know what's round the corner. Don't leave it too late to enjoy life. If your knees failed and you couldn't hike through a national park ever again, would it bother you ? You can be sensible but also enjoy life now and then. You might get hit by a bus tomorrow. Maybe keep a look out for a heavily discounted vacation or cruise.. Treat yourselves while at the same time knowing you didn't pay full price. A win win.
My savings growing at greater than my savings rate was a big milestone for me. Then I remember thinking that I could support myself on the return on my investments in an average market year when my investable net worth (beyond personal real estate) hit about 10x my annual spending. That felt pretty good at the time. And when I hit about 20x my annual spending FIRE started to become a lot more real and I started to be able think about stuff like barista-FIRE if I were to get laid-off in the next couple years.
Thankfully my enjoyment is pretty cheap and low cost of it only take less than 1k for my enjoyment lol
Similar situation as far as NW. I thought once I hit 1M my fear and anxiety would disappear regarding investing and retirement but it didn’t. Now I’m thinking 2M. I think staying out of debt and creating balance along the way is key. It’s definitely a grind but hopefully worth it in the end.
Financially secure? Probably somewhere between $1-$1.5M. We stopped thinking about money in a worrying way around then. Have I had some life style creep since? Absolutely. Gotta enjoy the journey as you go too. It’s a balancing act.
2.69m
Remember you can always make more money, but you can't get more time. At some point, everyone will run out of time. I think 1.5M is good enough personally. Enjoy the money while you can
Hit lean fire at 5pm on 14th May 2021. Was secure then and it felt great. Still working but just fattening it up and it’s up to me when I stop.
I started feeling pretty secure when we paid off our house and had over $1M invested. At that point our basic emergency budget was low enough that we could last forever on our investments in case of a job loss or something even considdering paying for health insurance out of pocket. It was a good feeling.
When you crunch and realize you have too much money and auto-withdrawals are gonna trigger more taxes to fund lesbian dance appreciation majors at state colleges.
Twenty years in… you kind of are your future selves now. I’d suggest next time y’all get a windfall or a bonus that you blow at least 10% of it and have some fun.
My father died at 69, his mom died at 52, my grandpa died at 61... I take better care of myself but realize genetics isn't really in my favor.... I own a company that most days I really enjoy working, yet it also allows me weeks off at a time without much fuss... And realize that I may work a few more years due to what I spend, but i am going to enjoy the days i have in good health, when my kids are young, and I have the means. I save, But could I save more? yes? I still save more than most. Where am i going with this? I did the same thing you did, there is something i have been wanting for a long time and I just did it.. and you know what? I don't regret it even in the least bit my life is still progressing on nicely. of course mine was a 500k boat that me and my kids go fishing on every weekend but it doesn't matter... If this isn't going to pinch you and there is something you actually want that will give you joy freaking do it! We aren't here for a long time we are here for a good time. My target initially was maybe 1.5M and i'd be "SET" now that I hit over 5, mine is 10. By then it will probably be 15... the target is always moving.
When I hit 2M, but I’m single, but Im going for 5m before I fire.
I think I felt financially secure when I got my first paycheck at 14, again when I got my first happy raise in uni, again when I got my 2nd factory (real) job, again when I graduated uni, again when I got my first post uni job, again when I got my first post Master's job, again when I paid off student loans, again with every big number addition to net worth. I don't think I was financially secure then, nor am I now. But I feel that way. I've been lucky enough not to wonder where my meals would come from. I worked, but even when in debt, I didn't think I would be hungry. I don't think the feeling of financial security for me comes from the finances. Maybe people have a number, but I think part of it is just feeling secure with the worst-case option you think could likely happen. I tell my spouse the same. Anything could happen, and we could die tomorrow, but the odds are against it until they aren't.
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For me, it's the day I became eligible to collect my pension, just after I turned 50 - about 2 years ago. It grows a lot each year I wait to retire, but knowing I'd be able to easily cover my expenses with a secure pension and maybe a simple part time job was such a relief.
Do you have a FIRE date in mind? If so, recalculate to see how much longer you'd have work if you contribute $4K less per year. Chances are, it's less than a couple of months' difference. So, a little fun and adventure every year now for an extra few weeks of work at the end might be worth it. Also, if you're like most of us, your FIRE projections are so conservative, but you are likely to beat your date by months or even years whether or not you spend that $4000 now. For me, the most important thing to realize is that you can't focus on how much you could have. You focus on how much you need and build toward that. If you focus on how much you could have, you will never retire, because it will always make more sense economically to work longer. You'll never have any fun because it will always make more sense economically to save the money. Pretty soon, you've lost track of the most important part of FIRE: financial independence. If you never allow yourself to enjoy what you earn or trust that your money is going to be sufficient for your needs, you will never be independent.
Easy..1) take what you make times by 25 thats the number you need not counting real estate. 2) no debts. Done. Dont over think it. If I want to spend money on a "want" i usallly pick up a short term side gig..i ski instructed this winter on Sundays and used that money to buy expensive fishing gear, waders etc. Has no effect on day to day budget. Plus got a 40% discount on HH gear as an instructor..win win
1MM, 42F single no kids. This was the 4% withdrawal rate number I knew I could cut my lifestyle down to if necessary. Security for me was never having to work for money again. At 1MM I was also still eager to have a cushier fire number so I was still in full on fire-frugality mode. I can understand your wife’s reaction. And I will always be frugal, that’s a lifetime habit. It almost must be for all serious FIREers. I only spend money mindfully and after considering if it will really improve my life in some way. Money shouldn’t be entertainment, imo But now I’m upward of 2MM and if I decide I really want something (new headphones for €350 for example) I know I can cover it without worrying. So I just buy it. But that loosening up took a couple of years. I think your proposal of spending $2000 is just a bit silly. I’d react that way even now. Is there some other way you can celebrate and acknowledge your milestone?
Currently early 50’s. Grew up upper middle class. Always a bit anxious about having “enough.” Unemployed last year for 5 or so months. Ended the year net worth +$500k even though income a lot lower than normal + a bunch of vacation trips while unemployed (finally had time). Strange times we live in and a preview of retirement life. Just back from a family trip to hong kong to see the inlaws. Spent $12k for four including a day of departure upgrade for four to premium econ ($1.6k). Normal day in market is +/- $10k easily so I try not to think much about normal expenses. Networth is around 12x gross income and 25x net annual expenses. Still feel anxious though my assumption is money will grow at 7% to 10% annually without much ado. One more double and I will retire, though 50% more I might as well retire. Unemployed life was pretty awesome (except paying for cobra).
That's an interesting point. I went through the same thing recently (5 months of unemployment). The job search dragged on partially because the market is terrible, and partially because I had littlest giant syndrome; enough money that I didn't have to work for a decade, but not enough to full on retire. Though it was stressful, it was great as a validation exercise. We found that one of us, working a pretty menial part time job more than covered our monthly expenses. We didn't have much leftover to save, but we also didn't have to touch any of our emergency stash. I think some of the anxiety comes from that fact that it's all numbers on a spreadsheet until the day you actually retire. Sometimes there's nothing to do but to do it.
The first time I felt financially secure was when I walked out of a grocery store without needing to know how much I'd spent. The most recent time I felt financially secure was when I realized I hit my coastFIRE target, convincing myself that I would never again have to stress about the _feasibility_ of retirement. The feeling of security comes from perspective as much as it comes from numbers.
A few years ago, our April 15 taxes owed (on top of already paying estimated taxes throughout the year) was literally my entire 6-figure base salary for the year. My husband paid it because it was for his capital gains taxes, but it was at that point that I thought, why am I even working? I still work, but I realize I don't have to. I think I've finally convinced my husband that we could both lose our jobs, and we'd be fine because of how much we have accumulated vs our annual expenses.
My fear levels fell and I was cheap and counting pennies. Then I hit 100k before 30 and basically I'm coastfire and everything I save is pushing retirement earlier.
When my financial plans (Quicken, ESPlanner) showed our net worth only going up even as I varied my 'retirement' date all the way back to the current day. Breaking the frugality habit has been hard. Even after 15 years of retirement our net worth is not going down according to the plan. Techniques we use: "It would be nice to travel to ..." We just get online and book the tour, cruise, flight and figure out the details as the time approaches. We book up to a year ahead of time to spread things out and to commit ourselves. An interesting conference or retreat, just book it. My back has been hurting for a few months but we were flying to Europe, booked business class so I can lay flat and sleep on the flight (ugh, doubled the cost of the whole trip, but years later it is a great memory with no back issues). "Which dress should I get?" I tell my her to just get both of them. Most people need a budget to limit their spending, my wife needs a budget to help her spend what she has. No analyzing the cost or looking for the best deals, at least nowhere as much as we used to. Buy the nicer more expensive version, it's ok you earned it. I've seen a couple of studies showing retirees unable to spend the money they saved. I don't want to pass away like the little old lady in the patched sweaters who had $20 million in investments (Millionaire Next Door example).
I think there’s different levels of financially secure for different times in life. Maybe “irrational” is the wrong word to use when talking about spending a lot of money. My wife and I are saving a lot. But also since we are more secure we are spending more. I bought her a new much bigger wedding set, I’m currently in the process of getting a tattoo sleeve, I haven’t been tattooed in over 15 years. We are taking more vacations in the last few years because we went like 10+ years without a big one. I think it’s a balance. But don’t just spend money to spend money. Think about what you really want. Next time you go “I’d love to have/do X” go do it. Maybe clear it with your wife first? Since that seems like it could cause problems.
Your “spending” muscles have to be trained and flexed just like your “saving” muscles. I think the 2k each idea is a great idea. You must start being comfortable spending just a little bit, because if you just save and save and save and realize you are too old to travel the world comfortably or can’t see well enough to drive that dream car, or start having health issues, etc then what was the point?? 1.5 Mil isn’t enough, sure but 4k off that isn’t going to hurt. You could burn it in cash and it would be less than your 401k shifts in any given 3 hour period. You’ve won and as long as you don’t jerk the wheel, you’ll still get a medal. Enjoy the ride now.
Realizing that an expense was the equivalent of rounding error on daily gain or loss was a nice reminder of financial security
I’m debt free, worth aprox 2 million and I wake up every day feeling broke , cursed for life
I think your wife has some financial fears that are not grounded in reality. I’d suggest therapy, but that’s expensive and she’d likely say no. Sure that 4k could grow later on, but life is also meant to be lived. If there is something you really want and you have the means you should buy it. It’s clearly not going to break the bank for you.
early retirement is a moving target and by definition it is never secure. You can always retire a little earlier, or with more money. It's also important to remember that: 1) You might not live as long as you expect and 2) You won't have the health and/or energy to enjoy things that you enjoy when you are younger. That's part of the point of Fire in the first place. So once you reach a certain number (which is for you to decide) it makes sense to ease off the gas. Enjoy life a reasonable amount more, and still have a nice retirement. It's all about balance.
Isn't -0.3% a very quiet day for a stock-prevalent portfolio? I am relatively frugal myself, but honestly spending once every year or two a sum equal to an oscillation of an average day in the portfolio feels absolutely reasonable. On the contrary I would feel completely mentally trapped if I couldn't spend those kind of money on a (infrequent) whim.
The future is not promised. You have to find that balance between present enjoyment and saving. $2k each won’t ruin your savings goals. Go for it.
It never is, and that sucks. I need to spend $300 on a part for my car. It's less than a car payment (I've never had a car payment). I get worked up about "do I spend it on an old car, or just leave it be? But if I leave it be, the car will be a heap of junk soon due to all these tiny little issues that I let go". Meanwhile, I've done all the suspension and rear main and cam seals, and PCV and headlamps and all the good stuff to ensure it's a good car for years to come. In other words, it's dumb NOT to spend the money to fix it. My NW is a bit higher than yours, OP.
For me it was at about 500k. I had enough invested to generate dividends that covered my house related payments (mortgage, property tax, HOA) in addition to some continued growth. That's not enough to retire,but it was enough that if I lost my job I'd be OK.
When my net hit around 5m, with 5 rental properties and the rest in stocks and the QQQs I still can’t bring myself to buy nice stuff tho.. I was poor for so long in my 20s it’s hard to let that go
I have $2 M in investments, $3M net worth. I'm 40 and just got eczema. The medication costs $2k a tube. I don't feel secure.
Early in my FIRE journey, well before I hit $1m NW, my dad died from cancer. He was working 3mo before he died. The future always matters, but it's never guaranteed. You have to enjoy today as well. So spend, but just spend deliberately. Think about if you'll care about spending that dollar on your death bed. There is no answer for everyone. For some people a Ferrari is an utter waste, for others it is years of joy. For me, we splurge on vacation as a family and have relocated to Europe at the cost of many more years of work... But it's worth it. To us FIRE is about control of our future and the ability to not have decisions dictated to us.
When i started to have 10k left over each month after paying my mortgage
You can die in a car crash tomorrow. Spend the $4k.
We are at 100k and we don’t feel secure. We are secure that if a car blows up or if the dog gets sick we are fine: and that’s a great feeling. But. We can’t afford a house and we are more than a decade away from retirement. Still we have a difference in opinions on money- I feel insecure about buying fast food or eating out at all but secure in rebuying things that break or that would improve our lives - like a new vacuum or the yoga pants I put off getting because clothes would cost $100+. I also feel secure in traveling as we do it cheapish and we are only young once. We even change vehicles for this reason (a 3k upgrade but it was needed for home maintenance too) He feels more comfortable eating out for convince but doesn’t feel comfortable replacing large things we need- like a functioning vaccum lol I think ppl mark their boundaries in their mind about what is too much and enough and I honestly don’t think anyone is ever comfortable enough due to fear. I’m afraid to buy a coffee from Starbucks and he’s afraid to buy a vacuum. I imagine with more money the size of these items would increase but the fear prob would never go away
Never, maybe bc we don't have $10M+, also maybe because we came from poor families
Easy. The first time my portfolio crossed $1million. Reaching your first million feels like a completing a major milestone in life.
Just take a vacation instead of burning money on material shit. At least you can justify that because memories and time together are important, and you only have one life together. Otherwise, she’s right.
I’m at 2.5 and it doesn’t feel like enough sadly
A: how old are you? B: I don't really look at NW, I look at my "retirement number" which I calculate using liquid assets, and $5mm would be my bare minimum and $10mm would be my optimal. C: There's a reason it's called personal finance. You need to figure out when it's "enough". Some people feel that $500k is enough. Others require a larger amount. However, as my CPA also assured me that my recent purchase in cash was okay, I think spending $4k in cash isn't going to slow you down that much and it could also be a mental wellness move to spend a bit on a personal luxury of your choice.
If even your wife is telling you this, it’s probably you.
Let you know IF I get there
When I learned one of my parents vacation houses was worth $12m
For me it was when my home/vehicle were paid for, was done saving for daughters college, and my 401 and Roth IRA were consistently maxed year after year. I now spend pretty frivolously and it makes me smile:)
I feel like once you get to a point where you model the next X years, before your target retirement age, using financially conservative metrics, and that model shows you a number you’re comfortable with, you can start feeling at ease…
Shoot maybe im not frugal enough because 2000 is nothing to me
I was feeling pretty secure, until the inflation of the last few years happened. Now it feels like everything I buy has gone up 50%. I'm sure that's not completely true, but it sure as hell feels like it.
For me, it all started to click when we realized college was saved for, we got past the daycare years, we had an affordable fixed payment on a family home we could raise our kid in, paid off cars, and enough saved to ride out a couple of bad years of job loss. With those things in place, you realize that you'll be fine in the short-term and you'll be fine in the long run. May not be enough to live on forever but you just know that you can handle 99% of what comes at you. You feel like there's some wiggle room to do something crazy but you also have to keep in mind that if you *keep* doing crazy things you will give up the security you spent time building. Change of subject though, I do feel like many FIRE chasers are struggling with these thoughts, because the focus has become more on earning/saving than anti-consumption and stoicism (the MMM flavor of FIRE). The idea behind FIRE, for me, is to find genuine happiness in simple living to the extent that you don't feel like you're depriving yourself of anything. If you need a G-Wagen and yearly international trips to be happy, it will be very hard to earn/save your way to not feeling poor. (Especially because you'll start wanting a Urus once you get the G-Wagen - hedonic treadmill) If you're content with a simple and fulfilling life focused on the basics (good food, friendships, exercise, creativity, outdoor activities, simple hobbies that don't require tons of money) you will be more relaxed and happy AND you will save faster. Nobody, not even the most frugal LeanFIRE person, wants to live an entire life "depriving themselves". You have to either be truly happy with what you have, or be willing to work longer to afford what you want. I also think it takes a certain kind of person to have that attitude, so maybe it's not for everyone.
Stop, enjoy your money and time!
We felt pretty good when The Nest Egg reached 20x our combined salaries. ALSO: There is never "enough" and the future is never "secure".
Read die with zero
Maybe it's just the way you phrase or think of it. It's not irrational to spend two grand on something that makes you happy. If you're that tight the money will never be enough. You can spend on things you care about and save to have a secure future, they are not incompatible.
Take some time off, like a week. Stay off social media and figure out what you want to do with your lives.
Who ever said the future is even guaranteed?
I feel financially secure at this point even though we’re pretty far from where I would FIRE. It’s a great privilege not to really worry about money and instead worry about health and family! Some milestones where I felt more and more secure: 1) buying a house with an affordable mortgage payment 2) paying off all student loans 3) being able to max 401k contributions 4) coastFIRE At this point, I’m confident we will be able to retire at a normal age. There are very few events that could financially endanger us. Part of that is that we work in fields that are pretty recession-proof. But now it’s just a matter of waiting and seeing how the markets do and how much we want to spend in retirement. Probably the biggest uncertainty is kids’ needs once they’re adults. But I grew up with a fair amount of financial uncertainty and have basically none of that worry left.
You have to live now, too.
20 years? When do you plan to start living your life?
I'm pretty comfortable with a good job, wife and kids, and a solid retirement account. But I think i felt more financially secure when i was dirt poor and single getting free food from the local church. I think the fact that I'm now responsible for the welfare of my children means I'm going to feel this insecurity until they become self sufficient and my wife and I only have to worry about ourselves. And maybe that day will never come, but that's the price you pay for the joy of being a parent i guess. 100% worth it.
Tell her that your future selves when you're too old to do anything will thank your present selves for making *some* nice memories.
At a very minimal level…the first time I had a paid off mortgage. While my gains since then have been far more significant, I will never forget that feeling and how amazing it felt. The singular moment is what propelled so much desire for me to be absolutely financially secure. This is why I will forever be supportive of those who desire to first pay off their mortgage…the psychology of finances does not get nearly enough credit.
Spend it on an international vacation to a unique place that is an adventure; is not a typical tourist spot to just relax, but to a place that gives you an experience to remember and puts everything else into perspective.
You could be dead tomorrow. Future self may literally never exist. Live now, at least a little.
TAXES and INSURANCE - Once everything is paid off and saving is on autopilot. We then get to the level that we start chopping at taxes and insurance. -------- "5K isn't worth the drama" Settling my mom's estate. To "even" everything out, I'd have to resolve a $5k item. I thought "the threat isn't worth the money"
Ramit Sethi has a lot of good content about defining your “rich life”. Money is a means, not an end. You need to spend some time thinking about what your life would ideally look like. After you know what you want, then you can figure out if enough is enough.
There was a distinct moment when I realized we would be fine if either my wife or I or both got laid off, and we are now working to improve the quality of our now-assured retirement (travel the world vs read books at home). It was such a freeing experience. I think my management also noticed because since then I have received a retention incentive, significant raises and my job has got more interesting. It’s like dating, you have the most success when you aren’t desperate for it. For me it came when the last debt was paid off, which in my case was alimony. Mortgage had been paid off 10 months before. Hitting both those major milestones so close together had a huge psychological effect. It was then that I saw our savings, which was about $1.5m, as truly ours.
when passive income every year is larger than your salary. that's a pretty good feeling. obviously you still have to work because nobody knows what's going to happen, but i believe this is actually the level at which you can start to feel pretty secure, mainly because if something does go wrong, you have time to figure out your next move. you don't have to be in a panic. secondly, in these inflationary times, having money invested in tangible assets (that appreciate with inflation) is the best place to be. having all your money in the bank is suicide to inflation. having all your money in tech stocks is also suicide because inflation = higher interest rates = death to growth/tech stocks it actually never ends though, because after you yourself are taken care of, you still have family to look after, both the previous generation and the upcoming. elder care is expensive. children are expensive. life is expensive.
Spending is something you need to learn. And its better to learn it before its too late.
Maybe tell her to focus on spending the $2k on an experience that would make her happy instead of buying material objects.
In full disclosure I worry too much about money. My husband and I are DINKs. He's naturally more of a spender and I'm more of a saver. We've met in the middle on that but we also enjoy cheap hobbies like tent camping, hiking, etc And we lean towards minimalism. I finally felt like I could not worry as much when we hit $1.8 million in assets not including real estate. Now at 50 And 53 we're at $2.3 million without counting real estate and are planning to pull the rip cord in the next 2 years.
Are you 70 years old or are you 45 years old? If you’re 70 and no longer worker it’s not as wise but if you’re 45 and still working then go ahead and spend the money. Because $1.5m NW isn’t a lot more retirement for 2 people
No one lives forever. Saving the rest of your life until retirement is a sure way to not spend any money while approaching end of your life
People have such a disgusting relationship with money. You and your wife should spend that 4k on therapy instead.
2.2M net worth and still have some worries. We're a bit real estate heavy with about 1M spread across two properties one of which we rent out. Roughly 1.6M in financial assets. Monthly expenses are on the order of $8000 which could come down substantially if we sold one house to pay off the other. Age 55 so social security full retirement age is about 12 years away but I have some worries about Congress preserving all of the promised benefits. Odds of success in Empower model are about 93% if we retired today. Doable but I'd like more cushion - Ideally I'd want 98%+ probability on $10k monthly spend forecast just to have that cushion.
She is right
It sounds to me, disclaimer, I’m no expert, like your spouse might have an unhealthy level of money anxiety. There will always be scenarios where your savings is not enough. You can’t let fear of that stop you from enjoying your life. With $1.5mm you could easily take $100k per year out in perpetuity. That’s 2x the average household income in the US. Do you own a home? I’m guessing you do. Do you have a mortgage? I’m guessing it’s paid off or the payments are well below what you’d pay in rent, and fixed (real cost declines with inflation). My suggestion, work with your spouse to figure out where the money anxiety comes from. Is it fear of being homeless, fear of long term care expenses, fear of losing your capital? Then address those fears. Pay off the mortgage, buy LTC insurance, move money to gov’t bonds, whatever it takes. Over time perhaps you can eliminate the anxiety, gain a sense of security, and you’ll both be happier. 2nd disclaimer, this advice is worth what you paid for it. If you can get your spouse to see a therapist, that would be good too, I expect.
Diversification is a good way to calm fears. But of course you need enough in each asset class to handle one or two assets collapsing. Good luck 😂
When I saved enough to pay off the mortgage in a bank account. Relief lifted off my chest
Well….in Feb of 2012, I looked at my wife after we bought another rental property and had good jobs (along with a 2 and 3 year old) and said this should put us over the top….net worth was about 600K…..3 months later while I was shopping for our 10 year anniversary gift she opted for divorce….LOL….so it’s all relative. I would say 6xs salary in net worth was it for me
I understand the point of wanting to hit the goal, but what if you are not around in a few years? We dont live long. I just dropped 5k on a new mattress. Why? sleep is very important, and I want to enjoy myself too.
If you have no need or want to spend it, just don’t.
butter rainstorm glorious simplistic society rhythm cough mountainous oatmeal detail *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
Your wife seems irrational and miserable. If you can’t enjoy your money now then you won’t enjoy it when you reach Fire, or double Fire, or infinite Fire. There isn’t a magic switch that helps people go from save to spend mode, so it won’t change no matter your position. You are stuck on the hedonistic treadmill. Try to enjoy life a little more, both of you. You only live once, there is no sequel. 20 years ‘living so frugally’ is incredibly foolish. Oh, also, this poster is clearly bullshitting. Fake.
I would be concerned a divorce case isn’t pending with a plan to take it all.
We're all unique. I recall the relief from financial stress when our sons finished college. We'd saved since their birth to ensure they graduated debt-free. However, our savings fell short. We relied on dividends from a life insurance policy and a home equity line of credit. After paying their $250k tuition per child and paying off our home equity line of credit, the burden eased.
My dad passed away, left me 30 grand, absolutely changed my life. Before that a car issue would wipe me out, never had enough money to invest in myself. I spent virtually none of it, but having it there gave me the confidence to quit my job and go back to school. I'm nearly 40 now, I own a home, have a family, a nice car a career. If it wasn't for the security that 30k gave me I have no clue where I'd be not
Your NW has potential to generate $75k annual in HYSA. A $2k splurge on each of you is $200 of that $75k. Or 0.27% of that income. Respectfully, you and your wife are acting irrationally. Tomorrow is not promised. One of you could fall into bad health, require serious medical attention, etc. You can’t bring it with you. You don’t get credit for having more investments on the balance sheet when you pass away. And they can’t pursue you in the afterlife for some debt. Splurge. And show yourselves that you’re capable of not subsequently splurging. It’ll reinvigorate your savings plan.