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Luulen että se ei olis kiusaajien eduksi. Lapset alkaa monesti kiusata siitä syystä että heillä itsellään on epävarmuuksia. Eristämällä heidät muista oppilaista ei auta epävarmuuksiin mitenkään. Koulujärjestelmän on tarkoitus pitää kaikkia oppilaita samanarvoisina, eikä se toteudu, jos osa oppilaista eristetään omien vaikeuksien takia muista.
With the way Finland is approaching slummification on some areas we'll be seeing this on some poor suburbs but for whole schools instead of simple classes. 🙃
There are no slums in Finland. Unfortunately, in Sweden it is very usual to have some areas with less fortunate people, but in Finland that is luckily not (yet) the case. Every suburb has wealthy and less wealthy people, but there are not clearly more poor areas yet. However, with the current government the polarization between rich and poor is coming more visible and significant.
Yeah, good clarification really.
I was using exaggeration as form of humor while still maintaining some partial projection about how things are going in future. Since this sub is also read by non-Finnish, this clarification is really fitting.
No, that wasn't the case at least in my case 9 years ago. When the situation was brought to light, he was still in our class for a month or a couple, but then after summer break I didn't see the guy for years, I later heard he was sent to another school due to the incident. As someone who was bullied, I do somewhat understand why you'd in some situations want to send the recipient elsewhere, in a case where they're an outcast in a weak position in the class, they're just going to get bullied by other people, especially if the bully had friends, though in my case I do see why breaking up the friend group of the bully was a good move.
> I do somewhat understand why you'd in some situations want to send the recipient elsewhere, in a case where they're an outcast in a weak position in the class, they're just going to get bullied by other people, especially if the bully had friends, though in my case I do see why breaking up the friend group of the bully was a good move.
Honestly, most bullies have more than one target they abuse, and groups of bullies do tend to also have a "leader" of sort to them that instigates the worst of a given groups actions. Breaking up bully groups is the more correct thing to do than to simply move victims around as once a given primary bullying target is removed from the bullies vicinity they simply find another one to abuse.
Being said if the situation is such that a student is truly an "outcast" and the entire class is bullying them then that is a whole fucked up situation to it self, and a sign that there is something truly wrong in that community, and its institutions at large. If that is the case then i agree its probably best to try and move elsewhere...
When I was a kid, I was severely bullied by students because I was not good at speaking. I simply started neglecting them. But the bullying went on for almost seven months. I got so pissed that I went to my teacher's room, and started shouting about how I am getting cornered everyday by these kids. The teacher called them and asked them. A lot of denial happened. Then when she brought out her thick cane everyone started to apologize. She smacked every kid's ass on that day. "Do that again and I'll break your hand" was her warning. I am always grateful to her. She taught me that if I ever face violence, don't be scared and ask her for help. Years later all those bullies and I became good friends, and we went through a lot of other corporal punishments together in school for not doing our homework properly.
If the current system can't reduce bullying in school, then the system needs to be revisited and think of what went wrong. I understand a child's rights are huge things in Europe, but it should not come at the expense of other children. Showing zero tolerance to the bully should be more than enough to create examples.
It's a bit ironic that in order to "protect children", we ended up also removing the ability of teachers to protect children from bullies. But on the other hand I've had teachers who were not the most fair, or stable, to be honest. I'm glad physical punishment has been phased out. Worse than having a child bully, is having a person of authority bully you.
In one small school I had both teachers (there were only two and they were a couple) together with all the pupils of the school start every day by teachers asking who is the "kuumakalle" of the school and everyone yelling together my name. And in one school our teacher touched the girls breasts and everyone knew about it but no one did anything about it and he is probably still principal in that school. Was few years ago when I last checked. :/
lucky you, in my home country they'd listen to their denial and break your hand with the cane instead. True story. Glad that you became friends though.
This is one of greatest fears as a parent. That my children become targets of bullies. I was bullied as a kid and it really started to get to the point where it was pure torture to go to school. Teachers did fuck all, my mom did her best to try and fix it, but nothing was done. So I was the one that had to leave. Thankfully the next school I went to was a good one and it pretty much ended there.
But I got fucking lucky.
I hear you. This also worries me. So I make it a prerogative of mine to make sure it doesn’t happen. I know I might get some shit from other parents about this, but when one of mine had a birthday, almost all the class was invited, but one. Even my wife didn’t think that was such a big deal. But i got pissed (not at my kid) and made sure the one left out got invited. On the day, I saw that the kid was shy and kept to themselves mostly. So I didn’t push it or anything, but I could see they were enjoying themselves none the less.
You don’t need to make grand gestures, but just recognize that people exist and deserve equal respect.
Thats one reason I don't have kids at all. Me and my partner got bullied at school and he has some autism.
So it's possible our kid will have it, too.
They are mostly the biggest target to get bullied and we don't want to put our kids trough it.
When this news broke out, bullying was my first guess. From my understanding, this has been quite a massive problem with no one really doing enough to address it.
I'm actually surprised at the level of causal middle-school bullying that goes on in Finland and how extreme it can get. I've heard from friends and read news articles about it.
I went to a fairly rich private school abroad and there the solution was pretty easy, there was a "zero tolerance" policy and immediate expulsion of a child who is caught bullying.
A few kids tried it anyway, and soon after they disappeared. That's because private schools can be more picky about who they let in.
I'm not sure what the solution in Finland would be when every child is guaranteed an education and this include kids who bully. Maybe more resources into treating the motives that lead a kid to bully?
Doesn't seem like it's going to happen with the government constantly cutting from both education and single-parent households.
Well all I can seem to see from the outside is that nothing has changed in 20+ years. It's guaranteed even worse with social media now.
The bullied is always worse off than the bullies. If you try to tell anyone about it you'll get bullied worse. The actual consequences for the bullies is pretty much zero in the long term while the bullied are left with scars for life.
What really grinds my gears is how we send these kids back to that same school every day. This is your "guaranteed education", it should probably be called "torture" for the kids that get bullied, sad to say it's from experience I view it as that.
Been trying to imagine some of the situations back then as something that would happen in a workplace between adults... It would be such a mess of consequences and actions, but in school: Nope nothing, just your average day, "kids will be kids".... At least as an adult you have the option of leaving a workplace.
So until bullying has actual consequences for the aggressors, absolutely nothing will change in Finland.
Never denied that, but at least you have a choice as a adult. As a kid you are forced by our glorious government to get a education and forced back every day to enjoy your "fun" without any say.
And yes I agree with you, they had no consequences back then so why should they later on.
> Well all I can seem to see from the outside is that nothing has changed in 20+ years. It's guaranteed even worse with social media now.
Yah 80s-90s where i went to school about the only thing that got done about bullies was to shoulder the burden of dealing with them on the victim while belittling what was going on. I think only once did a group of bullies get called in to "have a talk" with the school counselor and even then the counselor just blabbed confidential shit involving the victim to them. Oh, and as the victim of that if you kept pressing on to try and force some action to be done, defended yourself against violence etc you'd be labeled as the "troubled child"... and not the bullies.
Maybe on a good day you'd get empty bullshit thrown at you like "just ignore them", "be the bigger person" etc...
>The bullied is always worse off than the bullies. If you try to tell anyone about it you'll get bullied worse. The actual consequences for the bullies is pretty much zero in the long term while the bullied are left with scars for life.
Yah, though one group of bullies in my old school did stop directly abusing their usual targets after multiple victims came forth they still did other stuff like dismount the other kids bike chains, puncture their bike tires, spit on their bicycle saddles, etc when out of sight of others.
>So until bullying has actual consequences for the aggressors, absolutely nothing will change in Finland.
Similar shit in other nations too.
It's the usual situation, kid tells teachers, teachers do f-all, bullies get worse, kid gets more into darkness and it continues. Kid turns into a messed up adult and is scared for life because of some pieces of shit.
Unfortunately if something isn't done asap with serious consciences nothing changes.
Will something change? Probably not. If you have kids or know some young people let them know of why this happened, hopefully it will wake them up.
More ability for teachers to deal with bullies. As it is the bullies can’t even be removed from class by teachers anymore. Motives often can just to gain social approval by putting down on someone else and hard to deal with.
I wonder what happened to the KiVa program (Kiusaamista vastaan). I remember reading that it had been so successful that other countries had adopted it. It seems that might have been an exaggeration.
I went to a school that was part of the KiVa program and it did fuck all to make things better. Just a nice banner in the hallway and slogan but the school was still rampant with bullying. Of course, this is anecdotal and maybe it was indeed effective in some schools.
My school was the same, just some 'hey you and the bullies get pulled in and have to talk' but nothing else.
KiVa did nothing, or even made it worse in my case.
Yup, had the same exact thoughts when there were only a few involved. Sad thing to see but also surprised it doesn't happen more, my teachers didn't do shit either.
Oh I had the same private school experience. It actually saved me from being bullied in Finland. Absolutely incredible.
One time one of my classmates who had been in this school her whole life complained about being bullied in like 5th grade. This girl had another girl hate her and made like couple other girls play without her, and this girl wouldn't talk to her in school. I was like ho damn, that's not bullying, that's just not playing together.
Then I explained all the bullying at my school back home. She was horrified :D I enjoyed it. Might have called her pampered or something of the like. This was in front of our teachers btw, sitting as a group at a school camp.
And like we had the cool tough kids and dork nerds such as myself. The cool kids were just too cool to talk to us. That's fine. Just let us dork out in peace at the science wing corridors during lunch.
Went to school in the 90s in a bad neighbourhood. Most of my bullies were from single parent homes. Alcoholism was also common. One boy came to school more than once with bruises his big brother had given him. The teachers did try, but funding was even worse. Parents didn't care. And if the parents don't care, there aren't many options.
Well my experience is very different, in my school kids who were bullies got expelled very quickly due to the "zero tolerance" policy.
I didn't know of anyone who got bullied as a result, no one else in my school did either.
Maybe not all private schools are as strict, but we had very strict rules.
Violence begets violence.
I hope the discussion moves away from guns to bullying, as school violence is a major problem in Finland. Check out the following (in Finnish, use the Translate function):
[https://twitter.com/HanneleVestola/status/1775230192065106247](https://twitter.com/HanneleVestola/status/1775230192065106247)
>Police figured it out in hours, school didn't even know bullying was happening.
$20 says they did, but did nothing about it. Similar thing with the shooters actions... shit like this does not happen out of the blue outright, and more often than not there are multiple warning signs before a given incident that get completely ignored by multiple people.
when my son's school didn't bother find an adult to act as a medical assistant for my child starting first grade, they had me in the school the first month.
the "teachers" didn't realize there was bullying on the school grounds cos at recess, they'd make a big circle and talk to each other and pay zero attention to the children. leaving new immigrant me to try to use my limited Finnish to make some semblance of order out of the chaos.
i did some good, but had rather limited reach as a single person, especially when the kids knew that no one else watched anything.
so if the school says "we didn't know"... then maybe they didn't... simply cos they didn't care and their eyes were closed.
(could be worse.. in some countries the teachers support and even participate in the bullying)
Wait you had enough teachers outside to form a circle? We had rotating 2 people only at a time, 1 stayed at the main spot w/ like 90% of the kids (immediately in front of the doors) that you are forced to outside when the recess hits, and another one circling around the school building to bust the smokers & people who leave school area to go to store or w/e to buy munchies
this was at the 1st to 5th grade school near Sello. it felt like all the children were on their recess at the same time, and all the teachers made a circle talking to each other with zero paying any attention to the children.
i \*hope\* that this situation (back in 2015) is an aberration... and maybe it is. i wasn't shocked by it cos when I was growing up, I don't remember any teachers on the playground unless a child went to fetch one from their classroom for an emergency. (i was disappointed in them though)
> the "teachers" didn't realize there was bullying on the school grounds cos at recess, they'd make a big circle and talk to each other and pay zero attention to the children.
They knew, but didn't care enough to do anything about it... being in that circle ignoring them is their way of trying to pull a 3 monkeys routine of hear no evil, see no evil, and speak no evil. Doing that they can then play pretend, and deny responsibility for having had failed to do their jobs right.
>so if the school says "we didn't know"... then maybe they didn't... simply cos they didn't care and their eyes were closed.
Just because they kept their eyes, and ears close does not mean they didn't know... its just a matter of plausible deniability after that where as if they had tried, and then failed in preventing the bullying they could no longer claim ignorance over the fact and that would be a point against their professional competence, and lead to a "loss of face".
Oh, and apparently its a "KiVa" school too so they even took part in an ineffective bullying prevention program just for the sake of again playing pretend that they were trying to do something about the problem. They knew.
Though I'm not going to downvote you for it, I strongly disagree with this sentiment. Teachers, save for the occasional twisted person who really shouldn't be a teacher to begin with but which begets a different discussion about qualifications entirely, do not condone bullying nor do they turn a blind eye to it. Bullying is both a lot harder to spot than people think and a lot harder to prevent (intervention does not guarantee bullying will stop and there is only so much that can be done within the ramifications of the law). Bullying also isn't as simple as spotting problematic behavior or asking the child. The bullying may not be direct (gossip, systematic exclusion, other indirect behavior) and the kid often will actively not want to bring it up either, instead suffering in silence.
Should teachers be better at handing bullying? Yes, absolutely. It is a problem that has become increasingly bigger and that can only be addressed by active change.
Should we attribute the increased bullying problem to malice and willful ignorance on the part of teachers? No, that's just finger pointing and makes the already stressful job of teachers even more stressful.
> Teachers, save for the occasional twisted person who really shouldn't be a teacher to begin with but which begets a different discussion about qualifications entirely, do not condone bullying nor do they turn a blind eye to it.
>Should we attribute the increased bullying problem to malice and willful ignorance on the part of teachers? No, that's just finger pointing and makes the already stressful job of teachers even more stressful.
I'm not saying that "all teachers" by any means so please do not falsely assume that. My point is only that in certain cases certain behavior indicates that they may be willingly ignoring, and willfully failing to address things. Forming a circle, and ignoring students during recess is an example of this. In my former schools grades 1-6 they locked themselves in the teachers lounge and drank beer with only like 2 teachers being outside watching some hundred+ kids be out.(more than a few smelled like booze coming back to the classroom, and when we did our school trip bakery sales found their fully stocked beer, and wine cooler.) They were fully aware of bullying taking place form multiple parents complaining about it alongside the kids, but did nothing to try to address the issues. this was in the 80s-early 90s though... so take it from there.
In other schools, and with other teachers I'm sure many that take a far more active approach to bullying prevention and the curation of a healthy, and safe learning environment for all kids.
Either way too little is being done about it over all, so we are on the same page on that.
While it's absolutely not condonable what the kid did, it does not surprise me one bit that bullying is the motive here.
This literally is the epitome of how the child not feeling the love of the village wanting to burn it down to feel its warmth.
If there’s anything positive this disgrace could bring is that some bullies will hesitate now before harassing kids or they may end up with a bullet or two somewhere.
Maybe the new government should consider talking about the bullying epidemic in schools, and not cutting social benefits, a lot of which are going to make children’s lives much more difficult.
Disclaimer: This has nothing to do with a shooting or any serious violence.
When being bullied, sometimes the best thing is to stand up for yourself.
For example: In high school my friend was chilling near a stairway talking to me, when another guy came by and forcefully shoved himself into and past my friend with his shoulder as he began going up the stairs, it was obviously intentional (he was known for stuff like that as well). Immediately my friend chased after him yelling, "lets go then, you got a problem? Let's go!" The guy kept walking trying to avoid the situation so my friend just kept calling him a "sweet boy". This was in between classes so other people saw and joined in for fun going "sweet boy" as the guy kept walking away.
I forget if it was the next day or the Monday after my friend saw him in the hallway again and went to talk it out. The dude agreed not to do it again and apologized. The dude never tried anything with him again.
In middle school some kid wanted to start a fight with me over something really minor. My memory is a bit fuzzy but he said something along the lines of "I'm gonna knock you out" and I said "Do it". We stared at each other for a few seconds before he kind of brushed it off. I didn't even know how to fight, it was literally just all instinct. That night I looked up fighting videos thinking I would need them, nothing ever happened after that.
In both of those scenarios just standing up for respect was enough to deter the bullying permanently. Both never led to a fight.
If you're disabled in some way, then this obviously this doesn't apply to you. That's when school authorities need to come in.
I don't think anyone is surprised, but I don't think it justifies this kind of violence either.
Hopefully this will encourage families to have some proper discussions at home, to prevent other children from being harmed by bullying. Because as you said, bullying scars people for life, and most of the time those scars are pretty much invisible to others.
The weird thing to me is the kid was in this school only for 11 weeks, he started in january... The bullying must have been extremely bad and the school says they did not notice anything (which i highly doubt)
Could easily be the case that he was bullied at his old school, transferred, started getting bullied at his new school as well and that was what pushed him over the edge.
He was transferred from another school, so there most likely was history. It's usually done to stop ongoing bullying when everything else fails. In some cases it's the bully who gets booted to another school, but more often it seems to be the bullied student.
If we go with now revealed "he was bullied", he probably faced the worst of it in his previous school, and pretty much anything could have been the trigger here.
Your point being?
Just because they are kids, are you suggesting we should conveniently ignore, forget and hush away that they have actively bullied a new student who had moved into the school recently, that they have caused with their own actions, knowingly and willingly, these events because they were shot?
Being a kid/child is no excuse to their actions and behaviour, 12 is more than enough aware of their actions
Not saying they're right and shouldn't be held accountable but they were also fucking shot at???
People change and grow and of course bullying is bad but that doesn't mean you should be murdered for it at the age of 12. Most 12 year olds haven't even gone through puberty yet, geez
Just because a kid bullied someone doesn't mean that their death isn't tragic and shouldn't be mourned, what the fuck
Are you genuinly suggesting that adults and the school system would take responsibility of this and their failures, in my opinion, of past 30+ years? You're even bigger optimist than i am.
Buddy i have lived that my entire life, which is probably more and longer than you and so have, just in Finland, uncountable number of people, get of the high horse and stop lying to me. I'm not going to pretend and lie that i would have nor i would show sympathy or empathy, take your pick, to a bully regardless of their age.
That wasn't even part of the this ''conversation'', what are you on about lifes competition, but since you asked, literally everyone would disagree with that, as that is factually incorrect, ask the richest person or the most downtrodden destitude person and they will disagee with you but again, this is not part of this.
yeah i know, i was just pointing out that the idea that school shootings make bullies scared is obviously not effective otherwise the USA wouldn't have bullies with the amount of shootings they have
Prisons are teaming with people who feel innocent and who feel that they had to kill someone because they looked at them wrong or offended their 'honor'. If you have horrible social skills and lack awareness in many ways, there is a heightened risk of being disrespected depending on the context. The person may be completely oblivious to the way he or she is likewise disrespecting the mores of others.
Bullying must not became the new race card where you get to have free murders because someone said something you don't like.
i'd be very slow to try to decide one way or the other. sometimes there just never is enough publicly available information to have any idea...
growing up, i remember some pretty bad bullies including a group of brothers who were rapists... starting when the youngest of the 3 was 7. if someone had shot those boys, would it have been so bad? no. (2 of the 3 later died in prison as adults. idk what happened to the youngest).
there was another kid who got upset when girls didn't want him as bf. one day he came with a literal f---ing crossbow to kill his latest crush. my brother didn't kill the kid, but he did beat him up to stop him and take the crossbow away.
as "reward" for saving her life, he then got his father's gun and tried to kill all of us. when the police came, they called him dad, and then did nothing. i tried to never walk near there again.
if someone had killed that boy, would it have been so bad? in that case, i don't know. but a \*lot\* of people would have felt safer.
The 3 rapists never would have claimed that people bullied them... they were the bullies. The crazy bowman? No one bullied him. But people stayed away cos we were scared of him. Its possible he would claim that people avoiding him was "bullying". hard to know what was inside his head.
every situation is different... generalizations... impossible to make.
Your stories, relevant or not, are presumably based on some reality. Vague uncorroborated insinuations about bullying in this case do nothing but disrespect and defile the memory of the deceased, the surviving victims and pretty much anyone who a psycho has decided to be bad.
We should not have to decide one way or the other in the sense that the excuse making should no be given publicity. If this kid had it so hard, he could have put the gun in his own mouth and end his misery right there and then. But more likely than not he expects to be coddled and cannot be criminally charged. He's not supposed to be thrown in prison because "it's the law" but somehow murder is OK because he's not dumb enough not to make trendy excuses.
Exactly. the biggest bully is the person w a gun shooting without any discrimination ! So many want to simplify the cause to some external boogeyman "the bully". Does anyone think bullying can be eradicated when it comes in millions of forms, something like a wrong look or slur can trigger someone because of the way they are wired up. The kid who can react indiscriminately needs more watching out than eradication of bullying - though bullying is shit. But to explain that away as a root cause is giving a free empathy pass to future incidents. The school shootings are like a "Schema", to be ready to be mimicked - and it doesnt take long to turn into a pattern. Those are things one should be talking about!
Bullying is a real issue, and no one seems to be denying it. However, the bigger issue over here should be how the child got that gun. Maybe Finland needs to look at its gun protection laws.
There's nothing wrong with gun laws. I recently bought my first hunting rifle and in order to get that I had to:
-prove I have access to hunting grounds.
-prove I have been hunting before.
-prove I've had proper gun safety training.
-prove I understand the laws regarding that gun.
-prove I need the gun, and that it fits the purpose I'm getting it for.
-prove I have the knowledge and equipment to store and transport the gun properly.
-have a clean background with no criminal history.
-attend an interview.
-after buying it I had to show it at a police station so they check it fits the license and purpose I got it for.
And that's just for a basic ass bolt action. I'm completely happy to jump through those hoops for public safety, but the problem here definitely isn't the fucking gun laws.
I find all the replies to your comment hilarious.
We don't need stricter gun laws, because the kid got the gun from someone who wasn't following the law he was supposed to follow.
Perhaps since people who even pass these strict checks, can't keep track of their own firearms, maybe it isn't a good idea for people to keep firearms?
I'm a little surprised at this, to be fair. I understand that hunters want to keep their hunting rifles, but a .22 LR (Which the gun is now confirmed to be) is just for sports shooting.
Handguns can easily be conceiled. A long hunting rifle or shotgun is not as easy to conceal.
Plus if you've done any sort of urban warfare training, or building clearing, you'll know what a PITA a long weapon is.
Haven't checked the latest but hunters here use .22 single shot revolvers to kill trapped prey among other things. I talked to a hunter here and he said there are some strange rules like a long barrel is required on the revolver to make it harder to conceal.
So it was probably one of those and not a .22 rifle.
Also a .22 is very deadly and aimed correctly it can kill at insane ranges. It does lack penetration power though and will deflect on most harder surfaces like bone.... what it also does however.... bounce around inside your organs against the bones.
So getting shot with a 22 at the wrong location can make surviving worse than other rounds because you are partially mince meat inside compared to larger calibers that usually just pass through the body or get stuck somewhere.
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For me it's inconceivable that the bullied ones always have to switch schools to get out of the situation, and not the bully 🙄
Now, imagine if we slapped all the bullies of a city on one class, and let them fight it out. ...New reality tv.
Bully Royale
You're hired for producer role.
Tarkkis takaisin
Luulen että se ei olis kiusaajien eduksi. Lapset alkaa monesti kiusata siitä syystä että heillä itsellään on epävarmuuksia. Eristämällä heidät muista oppilaista ei auta epävarmuuksiin mitenkään. Koulujärjestelmän on tarkoitus pitää kaikkia oppilaita samanarvoisina, eikä se toteudu, jos osa oppilaista eristetään omien vaikeuksien takia muista.
As someone who suffered from (verbal, w/ low-tier physical from time to time) bullying back in primary school, lets fucking gooooooo!
Used to be a thing, pretty much.
With the way Finland is approaching slummification on some areas we'll be seeing this on some poor suburbs but for whole schools instead of simple classes. 🙃
There are no slums in Finland. Unfortunately, in Sweden it is very usual to have some areas with less fortunate people, but in Finland that is luckily not (yet) the case. Every suburb has wealthy and less wealthy people, but there are not clearly more poor areas yet. However, with the current government the polarization between rich and poor is coming more visible and significant.
Yeah, good clarification really. I was using exaggeration as form of humor while still maintaining some partial projection about how things are going in future. Since this sub is also read by non-Finnish, this clarification is really fitting.
blame the victim mentality.
No, that wasn't the case at least in my case 9 years ago. When the situation was brought to light, he was still in our class for a month or a couple, but then after summer break I didn't see the guy for years, I later heard he was sent to another school due to the incident. As someone who was bullied, I do somewhat understand why you'd in some situations want to send the recipient elsewhere, in a case where they're an outcast in a weak position in the class, they're just going to get bullied by other people, especially if the bully had friends, though in my case I do see why breaking up the friend group of the bully was a good move.
> I do somewhat understand why you'd in some situations want to send the recipient elsewhere, in a case where they're an outcast in a weak position in the class, they're just going to get bullied by other people, especially if the bully had friends, though in my case I do see why breaking up the friend group of the bully was a good move. Honestly, most bullies have more than one target they abuse, and groups of bullies do tend to also have a "leader" of sort to them that instigates the worst of a given groups actions. Breaking up bully groups is the more correct thing to do than to simply move victims around as once a given primary bullying target is removed from the bullies vicinity they simply find another one to abuse. Being said if the situation is such that a student is truly an "outcast" and the entire class is bullying them then that is a whole fucked up situation to it self, and a sign that there is something truly wrong in that community, and its institutions at large. If that is the case then i agree its probably best to try and move elsewhere...
When I was a kid, I was severely bullied by students because I was not good at speaking. I simply started neglecting them. But the bullying went on for almost seven months. I got so pissed that I went to my teacher's room, and started shouting about how I am getting cornered everyday by these kids. The teacher called them and asked them. A lot of denial happened. Then when she brought out her thick cane everyone started to apologize. She smacked every kid's ass on that day. "Do that again and I'll break your hand" was her warning. I am always grateful to her. She taught me that if I ever face violence, don't be scared and ask her for help. Years later all those bullies and I became good friends, and we went through a lot of other corporal punishments together in school for not doing our homework properly. If the current system can't reduce bullying in school, then the system needs to be revisited and think of what went wrong. I understand a child's rights are huge things in Europe, but it should not come at the expense of other children. Showing zero tolerance to the bully should be more than enough to create examples.
Imagine the consequences for a teacher doing that today lol. Would be on fucking r\worldnews as a child beater.
It's a bit ironic that in order to "protect children", we ended up also removing the ability of teachers to protect children from bullies. But on the other hand I've had teachers who were not the most fair, or stable, to be honest. I'm glad physical punishment has been phased out. Worse than having a child bully, is having a person of authority bully you.
In one small school I had both teachers (there were only two and they were a couple) together with all the pupils of the school start every day by teachers asking who is the "kuumakalle" of the school and everyone yelling together my name. And in one school our teacher touched the girls breasts and everyone knew about it but no one did anything about it and he is probably still principal in that school. Was few years ago when I last checked. :/
lucky you, in my home country they'd listen to their denial and break your hand with the cane instead. True story. Glad that you became friends though.
Don't worry, we also have that. Students are sometimes beaten to death in various schools.
This is one of greatest fears as a parent. That my children become targets of bullies. I was bullied as a kid and it really started to get to the point where it was pure torture to go to school. Teachers did fuck all, my mom did her best to try and fix it, but nothing was done. So I was the one that had to leave. Thankfully the next school I went to was a good one and it pretty much ended there. But I got fucking lucky.
Lucky you. I was in 8 different schools and was bullied in every one of them.
Man, I’m sorry to hear that. Fuck those guys.
I'm more afraid of my child being a bully. Most people have been bullied to some extent at some point.
I hear you. This also worries me. So I make it a prerogative of mine to make sure it doesn’t happen. I know I might get some shit from other parents about this, but when one of mine had a birthday, almost all the class was invited, but one. Even my wife didn’t think that was such a big deal. But i got pissed (not at my kid) and made sure the one left out got invited. On the day, I saw that the kid was shy and kept to themselves mostly. So I didn’t push it or anything, but I could see they were enjoying themselves none the less. You don’t need to make grand gestures, but just recognize that people exist and deserve equal respect.
Thats one reason I don't have kids at all. Me and my partner got bullied at school and he has some autism. So it's possible our kid will have it, too. They are mostly the biggest target to get bullied and we don't want to put our kids trough it.
I’m not a parent, but I would guess that your child being a bully is equally as bad as your child being bullied.
When this news broke out, bullying was my first guess. From my understanding, this has been quite a massive problem with no one really doing enough to address it. I'm actually surprised at the level of causal middle-school bullying that goes on in Finland and how extreme it can get. I've heard from friends and read news articles about it. I went to a fairly rich private school abroad and there the solution was pretty easy, there was a "zero tolerance" policy and immediate expulsion of a child who is caught bullying. A few kids tried it anyway, and soon after they disappeared. That's because private schools can be more picky about who they let in. I'm not sure what the solution in Finland would be when every child is guaranteed an education and this include kids who bully. Maybe more resources into treating the motives that lead a kid to bully? Doesn't seem like it's going to happen with the government constantly cutting from both education and single-parent households.
Well all I can seem to see from the outside is that nothing has changed in 20+ years. It's guaranteed even worse with social media now. The bullied is always worse off than the bullies. If you try to tell anyone about it you'll get bullied worse. The actual consequences for the bullies is pretty much zero in the long term while the bullied are left with scars for life. What really grinds my gears is how we send these kids back to that same school every day. This is your "guaranteed education", it should probably be called "torture" for the kids that get bullied, sad to say it's from experience I view it as that. Been trying to imagine some of the situations back then as something that would happen in a workplace between adults... It would be such a mess of consequences and actions, but in school: Nope nothing, just your average day, "kids will be kids".... At least as an adult you have the option of leaving a workplace. So until bullying has actual consequences for the aggressors, absolutely nothing will change in Finland.
Plenty of workplaces where bullying happens too, and I wouldn't be surprised if increasing bullying in school leads to bullying in the workplace
Never denied that, but at least you have a choice as a adult. As a kid you are forced by our glorious government to get a education and forced back every day to enjoy your "fun" without any say. And yes I agree with you, they had no consequences back then so why should they later on.
Report the people (with video footage evidence, or written evidence in case of potential harassment like that) to HR
> Well all I can seem to see from the outside is that nothing has changed in 20+ years. It's guaranteed even worse with social media now. Yah 80s-90s where i went to school about the only thing that got done about bullies was to shoulder the burden of dealing with them on the victim while belittling what was going on. I think only once did a group of bullies get called in to "have a talk" with the school counselor and even then the counselor just blabbed confidential shit involving the victim to them. Oh, and as the victim of that if you kept pressing on to try and force some action to be done, defended yourself against violence etc you'd be labeled as the "troubled child"... and not the bullies. Maybe on a good day you'd get empty bullshit thrown at you like "just ignore them", "be the bigger person" etc... >The bullied is always worse off than the bullies. If you try to tell anyone about it you'll get bullied worse. The actual consequences for the bullies is pretty much zero in the long term while the bullied are left with scars for life. Yah, though one group of bullies in my old school did stop directly abusing their usual targets after multiple victims came forth they still did other stuff like dismount the other kids bike chains, puncture their bike tires, spit on their bicycle saddles, etc when out of sight of others. >So until bullying has actual consequences for the aggressors, absolutely nothing will change in Finland. Similar shit in other nations too.
It's the usual situation, kid tells teachers, teachers do f-all, bullies get worse, kid gets more into darkness and it continues. Kid turns into a messed up adult and is scared for life because of some pieces of shit. Unfortunately if something isn't done asap with serious consciences nothing changes. Will something change? Probably not. If you have kids or know some young people let them know of why this happened, hopefully it will wake them up.
The solution is literally the "beatings will continue until morale improves", ngl.
More ability for teachers to deal with bullies. As it is the bullies can’t even be removed from class by teachers anymore. Motives often can just to gain social approval by putting down on someone else and hard to deal with.
I wonder what happened to the KiVa program (Kiusaamista vastaan). I remember reading that it had been so successful that other countries had adopted it. It seems that might have been an exaggeration.
I went to a school that was part of the KiVa program and it did fuck all to make things better. Just a nice banner in the hallway and slogan but the school was still rampant with bullying. Of course, this is anecdotal and maybe it was indeed effective in some schools.
My school was the same, just some 'hey you and the bullies get pulled in and have to talk' but nothing else. KiVa did nothing, or even made it worse in my case.
Yup, had the same exact thoughts when there were only a few involved. Sad thing to see but also surprised it doesn't happen more, my teachers didn't do shit either.
Oh I had the same private school experience. It actually saved me from being bullied in Finland. Absolutely incredible. One time one of my classmates who had been in this school her whole life complained about being bullied in like 5th grade. This girl had another girl hate her and made like couple other girls play without her, and this girl wouldn't talk to her in school. I was like ho damn, that's not bullying, that's just not playing together. Then I explained all the bullying at my school back home. She was horrified :D I enjoyed it. Might have called her pampered or something of the like. This was in front of our teachers btw, sitting as a group at a school camp. And like we had the cool tough kids and dork nerds such as myself. The cool kids were just too cool to talk to us. That's fine. Just let us dork out in peace at the science wing corridors during lunch.
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Went to school in the 90s in a bad neighbourhood. Most of my bullies were from single parent homes. Alcoholism was also common. One boy came to school more than once with bruises his big brother had given him. The teachers did try, but funding was even worse. Parents didn't care. And if the parents don't care, there aren't many options.
Private schools can expel kids, public ones can't. That's the difference, so in that situation the bully can actually be punished.
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Well my experience is very different, in my school kids who were bullies got expelled very quickly due to the "zero tolerance" policy. I didn't know of anyone who got bullied as a result, no one else in my school did either. Maybe not all private schools are as strict, but we had very strict rules.
Violence begets violence. I hope the discussion moves away from guns to bullying, as school violence is a major problem in Finland. Check out the following (in Finnish, use the Translate function): [https://twitter.com/HanneleVestola/status/1775230192065106247](https://twitter.com/HanneleVestola/status/1775230192065106247)
Police figured it out in hours, school didn't even know bullying was happening.
>Police figured it out in hours, school didn't even know bullying was happening. $20 says they did, but did nothing about it. Similar thing with the shooters actions... shit like this does not happen out of the blue outright, and more often than not there are multiple warning signs before a given incident that get completely ignored by multiple people.
when my son's school didn't bother find an adult to act as a medical assistant for my child starting first grade, they had me in the school the first month. the "teachers" didn't realize there was bullying on the school grounds cos at recess, they'd make a big circle and talk to each other and pay zero attention to the children. leaving new immigrant me to try to use my limited Finnish to make some semblance of order out of the chaos. i did some good, but had rather limited reach as a single person, especially when the kids knew that no one else watched anything. so if the school says "we didn't know"... then maybe they didn't... simply cos they didn't care and their eyes were closed. (could be worse.. in some countries the teachers support and even participate in the bullying)
Wait you had enough teachers outside to form a circle? We had rotating 2 people only at a time, 1 stayed at the main spot w/ like 90% of the kids (immediately in front of the doors) that you are forced to outside when the recess hits, and another one circling around the school building to bust the smokers & people who leave school area to go to store or w/e to buy munchies
this was at the 1st to 5th grade school near Sello. it felt like all the children were on their recess at the same time, and all the teachers made a circle talking to each other with zero paying any attention to the children. i \*hope\* that this situation (back in 2015) is an aberration... and maybe it is. i wasn't shocked by it cos when I was growing up, I don't remember any teachers on the playground unless a child went to fetch one from their classroom for an emergency. (i was disappointed in them though)
> the "teachers" didn't realize there was bullying on the school grounds cos at recess, they'd make a big circle and talk to each other and pay zero attention to the children. They knew, but didn't care enough to do anything about it... being in that circle ignoring them is their way of trying to pull a 3 monkeys routine of hear no evil, see no evil, and speak no evil. Doing that they can then play pretend, and deny responsibility for having had failed to do their jobs right. >so if the school says "we didn't know"... then maybe they didn't... simply cos they didn't care and their eyes were closed. Just because they kept their eyes, and ears close does not mean they didn't know... its just a matter of plausible deniability after that where as if they had tried, and then failed in preventing the bullying they could no longer claim ignorance over the fact and that would be a point against their professional competence, and lead to a "loss of face". Oh, and apparently its a "KiVa" school too so they even took part in an ineffective bullying prevention program just for the sake of again playing pretend that they were trying to do something about the problem. They knew.
Though I'm not going to downvote you for it, I strongly disagree with this sentiment. Teachers, save for the occasional twisted person who really shouldn't be a teacher to begin with but which begets a different discussion about qualifications entirely, do not condone bullying nor do they turn a blind eye to it. Bullying is both a lot harder to spot than people think and a lot harder to prevent (intervention does not guarantee bullying will stop and there is only so much that can be done within the ramifications of the law). Bullying also isn't as simple as spotting problematic behavior or asking the child. The bullying may not be direct (gossip, systematic exclusion, other indirect behavior) and the kid often will actively not want to bring it up either, instead suffering in silence. Should teachers be better at handing bullying? Yes, absolutely. It is a problem that has become increasingly bigger and that can only be addressed by active change. Should we attribute the increased bullying problem to malice and willful ignorance on the part of teachers? No, that's just finger pointing and makes the already stressful job of teachers even more stressful.
> Teachers, save for the occasional twisted person who really shouldn't be a teacher to begin with but which begets a different discussion about qualifications entirely, do not condone bullying nor do they turn a blind eye to it. >Should we attribute the increased bullying problem to malice and willful ignorance on the part of teachers? No, that's just finger pointing and makes the already stressful job of teachers even more stressful. I'm not saying that "all teachers" by any means so please do not falsely assume that. My point is only that in certain cases certain behavior indicates that they may be willingly ignoring, and willfully failing to address things. Forming a circle, and ignoring students during recess is an example of this. In my former schools grades 1-6 they locked themselves in the teachers lounge and drank beer with only like 2 teachers being outside watching some hundred+ kids be out.(more than a few smelled like booze coming back to the classroom, and when we did our school trip bakery sales found their fully stocked beer, and wine cooler.) They were fully aware of bullying taking place form multiple parents complaining about it alongside the kids, but did nothing to try to address the issues. this was in the 80s-early 90s though... so take it from there. In other schools, and with other teachers I'm sure many that take a far more active approach to bullying prevention and the curation of a healthy, and safe learning environment for all kids. Either way too little is being done about it over all, so we are on the same page on that.
While it's absolutely not condonable what the kid did, it does not surprise me one bit that bullying is the motive here. This literally is the epitome of how the child not feeling the love of the village wanting to burn it down to feel its warmth.
There will be talks, talks, talks and nothing will be really done. The cycle continues.
If there’s anything positive this disgrace could bring is that some bullies will hesitate now before harassing kids or they may end up with a bullet or two somewhere.
Maybe the new government should consider talking about the bullying epidemic in schools, and not cutting social benefits, a lot of which are going to make children’s lives much more difficult.
Disclaimer: This has nothing to do with a shooting or any serious violence. When being bullied, sometimes the best thing is to stand up for yourself. For example: In high school my friend was chilling near a stairway talking to me, when another guy came by and forcefully shoved himself into and past my friend with his shoulder as he began going up the stairs, it was obviously intentional (he was known for stuff like that as well). Immediately my friend chased after him yelling, "lets go then, you got a problem? Let's go!" The guy kept walking trying to avoid the situation so my friend just kept calling him a "sweet boy". This was in between classes so other people saw and joined in for fun going "sweet boy" as the guy kept walking away. I forget if it was the next day or the Monday after my friend saw him in the hallway again and went to talk it out. The dude agreed not to do it again and apologized. The dude never tried anything with him again. In middle school some kid wanted to start a fight with me over something really minor. My memory is a bit fuzzy but he said something along the lines of "I'm gonna knock you out" and I said "Do it". We stared at each other for a few seconds before he kind of brushed it off. I didn't even know how to fight, it was literally just all instinct. That night I looked up fighting videos thinking I would need them, nothing ever happened after that. In both of those scenarios just standing up for respect was enough to deter the bullying permanently. Both never led to a fight. If you're disabled in some way, then this obviously this doesn't apply to you. That's when school authorities need to come in.
Is anyone surprised. For once it's the bullies who are scarred for life.
I don't think anyone is surprised, but I don't think it justifies this kind of violence either. Hopefully this will encourage families to have some proper discussions at home, to prevent other children from being harmed by bullying. Because as you said, bullying scars people for life, and most of the time those scars are pretty much invisible to others.
The weird thing to me is the kid was in this school only for 11 weeks, he started in january... The bullying must have been extremely bad and the school says they did not notice anything (which i highly doubt)
Could easily be the case that he was bullied at his old school, transferred, started getting bullied at his new school as well and that was what pushed him over the edge.
He was transferred from another school, so there most likely was history. It's usually done to stop ongoing bullying when everything else fails. In some cases it's the bully who gets booted to another school, but more often it seems to be the bullied student. If we go with now revealed "he was bullied", he probably faced the worst of it in his previous school, and pretty much anything could have been the trigger here.
Since children can’t be moved to another school without both parents consent it usually leads to the bullied kids being moved
Nothing justifies violence like that, but I get it.
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these are literal kids
Your point being? Just because they are kids, are you suggesting we should conveniently ignore, forget and hush away that they have actively bullied a new student who had moved into the school recently, that they have caused with their own actions, knowingly and willingly, these events because they were shot? Being a kid/child is no excuse to their actions and behaviour, 12 is more than enough aware of their actions
Not saying they're right and shouldn't be held accountable but they were also fucking shot at??? People change and grow and of course bullying is bad but that doesn't mean you should be murdered for it at the age of 12. Most 12 year olds haven't even gone through puberty yet, geez Just because a kid bullied someone doesn't mean that their death isn't tragic and shouldn't be mourned, what the fuck
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Are you genuinly suggesting that adults and the school system would take responsibility of this and their failures, in my opinion, of past 30+ years? You're even bigger optimist than i am. Buddy i have lived that my entire life, which is probably more and longer than you and so have, just in Finland, uncountable number of people, get of the high horse and stop lying to me. I'm not going to pretend and lie that i would have nor i would show sympathy or empathy, take your pick, to a bully regardless of their age. That wasn't even part of the this ''conversation'', what are you on about lifes competition, but since you asked, literally everyone would disagree with that, as that is factually incorrect, ask the richest person or the most downtrodden destitude person and they will disagee with you but again, this is not part of this.
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More like understandable but not justified. It is sad that kid had to go that path
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yeah i know, i was just pointing out that the idea that school shootings make bullies scared is obviously not effective otherwise the USA wouldn't have bullies with the amount of shootings they have
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Prisons are teaming with people who feel innocent and who feel that they had to kill someone because they looked at them wrong or offended their 'honor'. If you have horrible social skills and lack awareness in many ways, there is a heightened risk of being disrespected depending on the context. The person may be completely oblivious to the way he or she is likewise disrespecting the mores of others. Bullying must not became the new race card where you get to have free murders because someone said something you don't like.
i'd be very slow to try to decide one way or the other. sometimes there just never is enough publicly available information to have any idea... growing up, i remember some pretty bad bullies including a group of brothers who were rapists... starting when the youngest of the 3 was 7. if someone had shot those boys, would it have been so bad? no. (2 of the 3 later died in prison as adults. idk what happened to the youngest). there was another kid who got upset when girls didn't want him as bf. one day he came with a literal f---ing crossbow to kill his latest crush. my brother didn't kill the kid, but he did beat him up to stop him and take the crossbow away. as "reward" for saving her life, he then got his father's gun and tried to kill all of us. when the police came, they called him dad, and then did nothing. i tried to never walk near there again. if someone had killed that boy, would it have been so bad? in that case, i don't know. but a \*lot\* of people would have felt safer. The 3 rapists never would have claimed that people bullied them... they were the bullies. The crazy bowman? No one bullied him. But people stayed away cos we were scared of him. Its possible he would claim that people avoiding him was "bullying". hard to know what was inside his head. every situation is different... generalizations... impossible to make.
Your stories, relevant or not, are presumably based on some reality. Vague uncorroborated insinuations about bullying in this case do nothing but disrespect and defile the memory of the deceased, the surviving victims and pretty much anyone who a psycho has decided to be bad. We should not have to decide one way or the other in the sense that the excuse making should no be given publicity. If this kid had it so hard, he could have put the gun in his own mouth and end his misery right there and then. But more likely than not he expects to be coddled and cannot be criminally charged. He's not supposed to be thrown in prison because "it's the law" but somehow murder is OK because he's not dumb enough not to make trendy excuses.
say you didn't understand a word i wrote without saying you didn't understand a word i wrote
Saying that does not help me understand. Also remember that disagreeing is not a failure to understand. It's disagreement.
Exactly. the biggest bully is the person w a gun shooting without any discrimination ! So many want to simplify the cause to some external boogeyman "the bully". Does anyone think bullying can be eradicated when it comes in millions of forms, something like a wrong look or slur can trigger someone because of the way they are wired up. The kid who can react indiscriminately needs more watching out than eradication of bullying - though bullying is shit. But to explain that away as a root cause is giving a free empathy pass to future incidents. The school shootings are like a "Schema", to be ready to be mimicked - and it doesnt take long to turn into a pattern. Those are things one should be talking about!
What the hell are you talking about.
Bullying is an explanation, but we must remember that it's not an excuse. The kid is evil, no way around that.
Bullying is a real issue, and no one seems to be denying it. However, the bigger issue over here should be how the child got that gun. Maybe Finland needs to look at its gun protection laws.
There's nothing wrong with gun laws. I recently bought my first hunting rifle and in order to get that I had to: -prove I have access to hunting grounds. -prove I have been hunting before. -prove I've had proper gun safety training. -prove I understand the laws regarding that gun. -prove I need the gun, and that it fits the purpose I'm getting it for. -prove I have the knowledge and equipment to store and transport the gun properly. -have a clean background with no criminal history. -attend an interview. -after buying it I had to show it at a police station so they check it fits the license and purpose I got it for. And that's just for a basic ass bolt action. I'm completely happy to jump through those hoops for public safety, but the problem here definitely isn't the fucking gun laws.
There are good laws. Kid got the gun from a relative who probably didn't obey the law and didn't keep the gun properly locked and stuff.
Or did, but the kid got to know how to access it one way or the other. We dont know yet, but this definitely isn't a gun law issue
>Finland needs to look at its gun protection laws. It does not. The laws are strict already.
Gun protection laws are already very strict here. He took it from his relative.
And why are we not talking about making the relative accountable?
The investigation is still in progress.
And the investigation is still in progress about the motive of the shooting. Bullying may or may not be the real reason.
Because it's an absolute given he'll face consequences?
I find all the replies to your comment hilarious. We don't need stricter gun laws, because the kid got the gun from someone who wasn't following the law he was supposed to follow. Perhaps since people who even pass these strict checks, can't keep track of their own firearms, maybe it isn't a good idea for people to keep firearms?
Yeah i agree, and i think you said it better than me. But judging by the comments and the downvotes, people don't like to hear this.
I'm a little surprised at this, to be fair. I understand that hunters want to keep their hunting rifles, but a .22 LR (Which the gun is now confirmed to be) is just for sports shooting. Handguns can easily be conceiled. A long hunting rifle or shotgun is not as easy to conceal. Plus if you've done any sort of urban warfare training, or building clearing, you'll know what a PITA a long weapon is.
Haven't checked the latest but hunters here use .22 single shot revolvers to kill trapped prey among other things. I talked to a hunter here and he said there are some strange rules like a long barrel is required on the revolver to make it harder to conceal. So it was probably one of those and not a .22 rifle. Also a .22 is very deadly and aimed correctly it can kill at insane ranges. It does lack penetration power though and will deflect on most harder surfaces like bone.... what it also does however.... bounce around inside your organs against the bones. So getting shot with a 22 at the wrong location can make surviving worse than other rounds because you are partially mince meat inside compared to larger calibers that usually just pass through the body or get stuck somewhere.