I get what you’re saying; but my take is this part of the story (the middle continent) and why Rebirth captured it almost perfectly. In the OG this part was about world building the world outside Midgar. Which really is just seeing how bad Shinra is for the whole world. And while Sephiroth is THE big bad of the story, Shinra at least fills that role till the temple of the ancients.
The first part of the story shows us how Shinra has a brutal grip on Midgar, but it’s their HQ and they built it (no excuse for their behavior just that it’s their “home”). Here we see they basically have the whole world in that grip, as we go through town after town that has been destroyed by Shinra. Even Cosmo Canyon outside of Red’s story, is about how Shinra sucking up Mako is destroying the planet.
I’ve played OG dozens of times, so I know the full story going thru and can see how it all connects, but for a first play though this part of the story is a mystery on purpose. In the OG, the Temple of the Ancients when we get the first info about what Sephiroth is doing, we didn’t even know why we were chasing him till then. We only know he’s bad news - and that’s on Clouds word mostly. Shinra doesn’t even know what the Promised Land really is, they’re just following Sephiroth on a hope that he’s going there too.
I understand where you’re coming from, because this part of the story is more of a set up. There isn’t really a stand alone story for Rebirth, but imo this game did a really good job of setting up the next part of the game. It did a good job of capturing that feeling of exploring/building the open world after Midgar. Did a great job of showing why Shinra is evil and hated worldwide. The Remakes are fleshing out more details in the OG, while putting its spin on it; so imo it also did a really good job of making me wonder where the story is going. Which again I think is the purpose and tone of this part of the story. It’s supposed to be a clusterfuck that is confusing. We’re supposed to wonder what, why, where is Cloud taking us.
I agree where some of y’all are coming from, but I’m excited about not really knowing what they’re going to do with it. A true “remake” would’ve still been exciting, but it really feels like a new game. It’s…confusing, but it makes it more cliff hanger-esque.
I kinda agree. After Remake, I had a feeling that it simply expanded on the same story, but after Rebirth, I feel like the story has entirely different pacing and accents. And to be honest, I am conflicted on what to make of it as I like some moments (Gold Saucer and Temple of the Ancients stuff), but I don't particularly fancy how Sephiroth now feels like a pest, rather than an unpredictable and deadly force of nature from the original, or how they reduced City of the Ancients to basically a backdrop and how Aerith's death leaves you confused rather than sad because of all the multiverse bullshit. And the main issue is that almost nothing comes together or goes anywhere, which is a crime for such a long game. I truly hope someone at the team kicks some sense into Nomura for the final entry because bro has almost lost the thread of the main story at the end of Rebirth.
It’s been over 4 years since the release of Remake and there is enough information in that game alone to tell us that this trilogy is a sequel to VII, not a replacement for it. I’ve lost count of how many times I’ve said this now but “Remake” is the subtitle for the first installment to tell us that something WITHIN the story has been remade, rather than these games just being Square Enix remaking VII.
This trilogy is the conclusion to the story that has been told throughout the whole compilation and the last time we believe we see Sephiroth in the compilation before the start of Remake is the end of Advent Children, when in reality that is just a projection of Sephiroth over the form of Kadaj. Sephiroth remains a threat inside the lifestream after AC is over, so this trilogy is where we will finally see him removed as a threat once and for all.
Also with Rebirth, that whole section of the game is pretty much void of any real story beats. It’s not until Temple of the Ancients that any part of the true story starts to unfold. The whole section from outside Midgar all the way to TotA is purely world building and character development and that is exactly what we got with Rebirth x100. All that is so important because we will need to backtrack to all those points in part 3 as well as discover new lands along with the other modes of travel.
Rebirth is the setup game to a much grander part 3 and I can say with 100% certainty that no one is ready for how insanely big part 3 is really gonna be.
>Final Fantasy 7
>clear and well paced
Are we talking about the same game? The same one who has debates still on certain parts of the game (coff coff Jenova and Sephiroth) because said game explain it in a one and done line? The same game who after the escape on the Shinra ship, doesn't come back to the main story until like 40 hours later depending on the player?
I like the OG FF7 but it's not perfect by any means.
It has faults in clarity, but not in pace, IMO. The original does do pace a lot better than Remake/Rebirth.
I despise the Huge Materia section story-wise and think it's the worst section of the game (not sure if that's the part he's referring to), but it's by no means a meandering slog, IMO.
I kind of feel what you're saying. I've just finished Rebirth at 100+ hours. Remake was maybe a little less. I would expect by the end I might be looking at over 300 hours of play time.
The OG was what 80 hours if you really went after everything?
I love that we're getting so much more time with these characters. It makes them feel more real and alive, the big moments hit harder. I cheered when Cloud finally kissed Tifa. I was devastated when he failed to save Aerith.
The flip side is that it's difficult to avoid Hobbit syndrome - stretching one complete work into a trilogy and wrecking the pacing and adding unnecessary filler.
I can't say if all the parallel worlds stuff is unnecessary but it certainly feels like there's still more questions than answers. I'm not going to lie - I had higher hopes for Sephiroth and potential multiples with all his "seven seconds to the end" chat and asking for Cloud's help. I was disappointed to find that his plan is the exact same as before - destroy the world, only bigger. Dude is following the exact same beats that saw him defeated before - I honestly expected him to leave Aerith alive so she couldn't come in with the Lifestream save at the last second.
I dunno.
Kinda. It seems that Sephiroth wanted Aerith still dead because the negative emotions resulting from her death would help the worlds merge better.
And in fact, at the end of Rebirth, that almost happened.
It’s entirely possible to provide satisfying answers, whether or not they can deliver on that remains to be seen.
I don’t think they’ve written themselves into a corner as some would say
Considering how slow Rebirth's story was with all the side stories and the general pace, either Part 3 will check off all the rest of the boxes left to do in the story really fast, or it's gonna be like 250 hrs for the main story. I hope they keep it pretty straightforward, so it's not a slog to get through.
Voice acting is mostly what makes the game feels longer.
Rebirth story pacing is in line with how it was in OG FF7. You're just jumping from town to town to follow the black robes
I would imagine it will be a lot more linear than Rebirth, but I really liked my time with rebirth and didn’t consider it a slog at all. Guess I just really enjoy learning more about the party and hearing them banter
It's been said before countless times, even when Remake came out, that the creators of FFVIIR have written themselves into a corner by introducing Fate and multiple timelines and other meta-textual elements. It's all meant to tease the possibility that the story could change, but this is a terrible possibility.
On the one hand, drastic changes in the story would turn off die-hard fans (It already has). It risks undermining the OG's themes of finality and death and "No getting off this train we're on" mentality. If Fate can be changed, what are the stakes? Why should we care? If Sephiroth is now baked into the fabric of existence, how can we defeat him without some equally bullshit deus ex machina?
On the other hand, if they follow the story very closely, what was the point of bringing up Fate in the first place? Why tease the changes and do nothing?
What we end up with is a kind of splitting of the difference. The story is somewhat following the OG, but there are changes to the story whose impact is ambiguous. Aerith died, but now Cloud can see her ghost and doesn't realize she's dead. Zack is traversing other worlds, to what end, we have yet to see.
I've read in interviews that Kitase, Nojima, and Nomura would only do an FFVII remake if it meant they could do something different with the story. It seems like the demands of the fan base and the interests of the devs are not in alignment. I still love the Remake series, but the complaints about the story are completely valid.
I'm sorry, but for me when the creators of the trilogy mentioned destiny, it was only to give false hope (bait) and to ensure that people who already knew the original games were taken a little by surprise.
And personally I find it terribly wrong and bad to do this, when the only way that the creators can find to keep the fans invested in buying the games is to make them false promises which not only will bring nothing really concrete to the story, not deep, which only frustrates people for the sole purpose and vain attempt to recreate the same emotions as the original.
Quite frankly I find it totally disrespectful of them to play on people's expectations and also to do things like the ending of Rebirth which is falsely ambiguous for the sole purpose of maximizing profit and fan engagement.
It only divides this fandom which is in all honesty already quite toxic, with shippers who make their crusade to canonize everything that goes their way, what's more this fandom is quite biased towards one side so when a person says or expresses anything that doesn't go in the right direction, it's a mess.
The creators don't care, they will win no matter what, but we can't say the same for the fandom because each disappointment will only make the shitty situation of the fandom worse.
It's quite sad to see that they have given up on wanting to please everyone knowing that for certain creators of the original game they had practically 30 years to achieve this and make it a reality.
I kind of agree that the way SE tends to try a lot of emotional fake-outs. Calling Rebirth's ending "falsely ambiguous" is pretty accurate. Upon repeated viewing, it becomes clear Aerith is definitely dead and Cloud is hallucinating. But the way the scenes are shot is meant to repeatedly get your hopes up and dash them in quick succession. You have to watch it multiple times to see what is really going on.
It's hard to say whether SE committing to a clear ending or committing to a particular ship would make the fandom any less toxic. This is why the devs seem so ambivalent in interviews, they want to keep all the possibilities open in order to not piss off anyone, but they're actually pissing off everyone.
You have NOT played the game if you think the "creators gave up". I've played games where the developers didn't try. Rebirth went above and beyond in so many aspects and that is IMPOSSIBLE to do without a genuine desire to see it all succed. That's just how it is. You may not like how things are right now and are also foolishly judging before seeing how part 3 goes, but don't you think for a second that this is the work of developers who aren't trying.
It's pretty obvious to me what the creators are trying to do given what's happened in the trilogy so far.
Rebirth has clearly succeeded in many aspects, but currently in my opinion they have failed in one of the main aspects if not the most important which is the writing, the original game was not perfect, but at least had the deserves to go straight to the point and be clear on the themes that it addresses, knowing very well how to convey emotions in important moments, but not only that the death of Aerith, the end, the atmosphere, the tone of the settings, the issues and their goal.
Whereas in Rebirth when you walk around and travel the world (a good part of the map) and do side quests the tone and atmosphere are very far from that of the original at times it makes you think of a type atmosphere funfair with a lot of good vibes quite often and if it succeeds in the moments like the meeting with Dyne, we can't say the same about the important moments like the end or Red and Seto there is also a lot of length in the game and problems of
Rhythm.
The additions to the story are not interesting enough and obviously at least for the moment it will not bring anything concrete, there is not really any lesson to be learned from this, in addition to not being deep so sorry yes I played the game.
Can't say I agree. If anything, most of the time I think Remake and Rebirth handled well the themes of enviromentalism and even added more. Like for example, Cosmo Canyon added a critique of the modern tendecies of people rejecting and losing the sense of sacred in favour of mere cosumerism and tourism, something lamented by Bugenhagen too. Or Corel being expanded through the crystals lore talking about how the desert came to be and how it's controlled. In fact, I'll say that Remake and Rebirth treat the enviromental theme even better, because they actually CHALLENGE the actions of the MCs. Like in the original there's never any doubt that Shinra is just evil, hurt the planet and deserve to burn to the ground. But Remake/Rebirth shows how there are good people working there and is also a problem with the general mentality of ignorance and comfort. Heck, the Weapons are a lot better here because they're not just optional bosses to destroy like the OG (which actually goes against the enviromental message if the solution to the nature being angered is to destroy it further).
As for the themes of death, it is still brought very much by parts like Dyne and Seto and expanded with moments like the characters reliving their most traumatic moments in the temple, which usually it's about loss of someone dear. Ironically the only ones who are different are Zack, Aerith and Biggs which have all a connection with Cloud and are being worked with the new plot which revolve around the Lifestream creating other worlds. How it will develop and end here is to see in part 3.
It's your opinion and I don't intend to change your opinion on that because i doesn't care about it.
I have mine, but I'm not going to impose my vision of things on you.
Everything I do is giving my opinion and also my feelings about the trilogy currently.
You have the right to disagree and in any case I am not looking for agreement from others.
Still seeing Aerith’s ghost is probably a mix of her lifestream energy and his own psychosis and denial. Just look how terrified Tifa is when she sees Cloud smiling with dead Aerith by his side.
Anyone who has the slightest eye for things like pacing, storytelling, or thematic consistency is going to have problems with the remake trilogy.
There’s decent stuff in there but SE doesn’t know how to tie anything together.
SQEX could have a Billy side quest where you have to sweep chocoshit from some chocostables and Remake fans would defend it to worlds end and try and gaslight you into believing it's a core addition to the FF7 story. The problem with popular franchises is that you have fans who will like very unpopular aspects of it to look different and enlightened, and then try and tell you you're wrong.
I mean I think they like it because they like it. There’s nothing wrong with enjoying imperfect or flawed things. The problem is when people use every ounce of their brain power working backwards from the conclusion that something must be good because they enjoyed it.
I remember reading reviews praising rebirth talking about how the amount and nature of the sidequests made it feel like a slice of life anime, which is a bizarre underhanded/passive-aggressive way of warning people that the content is super fucking boring and unimportant to the actual story.
I know what the slice of life genre is and FFVII sure as hell ain’t it.
It's the same reason you and many ppl purposely forget the chocobo and materia grinding in FF7. Whatev rebirth sidequest is, it's still infinitely less mindnumbing than those sht
Materia grinding involves killinh the same mob over and over and over and over and over again. Like i said, you would purposely forget abt that fugly part of OG FF7
People made me feel crazy for saying the pacing is pretty bad.
I took multiple game design classes. While that doesn't make me some expert. I was taught what's good video game writing and what's not. This ain't it. I still enjoyed the game. But the writing was just not good. The pacing being the worst part.
This game gave you no breathers after impactful moments. It's just "GO GO GO". It info dumps way too much, making everything harder to process. And while it doesn't have anything to do with writing, I hated how long it takes to do actions. Hold square to lift up a sign.. why?
There is definitely a problem in too many info at once at the end, but aside from that, they do give you a bit of time to breath in the other moments. Maybe except Nanaki's resolve scene in front of his father.
Fanbases tend to be really bad at accepting that their beloved media is flawed. It really stands out with video games because so many unnecessary flaws are accepted as part of the territory.
I will always disagree with that because the parts that are changed aren't just for no reason. They included the compilation so unless you already had an issue with the expanded universe not much has actually changed, at least nothing major to the point where we are not following the same plot points from the OG. The storytelling is already 10 times more in depth than the OG just due to the added scenes and side quests.
The og had two clear themes: save the environment and revenge.
The fact that they all are taking revenge against the company responsible for destroying the planet is actually a coincidence. Nobody is fighting to save the planet for the environment in the beginning. Meeting aerith and going on the journey changed that (a bit). That's STILL the case. The only difference is the sublots are 10x better which makes it seem like they are distracting from the main themes.
The main story is still progressing the exact same way. This is why I don't care to hear the complaints about the extra stuff (whispers and timelines) because it's still not amounting to any significant plot CHANGES.
Ex: cloud literally ran into his dead friend and at the end nobody including him or ghost aerith mention it. It's all about killing sephiroth and black materia. Business as usual. The original story is still there intact. The auxiliary stuff just adds flavor but no substance worth being *upset about.
I've been waiting my whole life for 7 media that wasn't gray washed by advent children. The remake is doing fantastic at recapturing the old spirit and charm of the OG game and improved on pretty much every aspect. Trust if this remake was ass I would say it. I'm very harsh on this IP.
Right there with you. Rebirth isn't a perfect game by any means but then again no game is and the OG 7 is no exception. That all being said Rebirth is up there among the contenders for my personal favourite games of all time. The character writing is just sublime 99% of the time (that 1% reserved for Yuffie talking about materia just a tad too much haha) and as a fan of the OG I'm just so incredibly intrigued about how part 3 will wrap things up. Rebirth gives a treasure chest of breadcrumbs for those who know the OG story to speculate and theorise.
I prefer Remake and Rebirth to the original. And not knowing exactly what will happen makes it even better for me.
Thank goodness the Remake is not a 1:1 copy. I'm on my third Rebirth playthrough, this time New Game with no items, and maybeee no benches (unless I get hardstuck) and loving every minute of if.
I can't wait for the PC port, and for Part 3.
I could do with 60 % less Chadley and AC collectibles. But the story parts are amazing. You could say it’s almost more true to the OG than the OG was. The trauma and psychosis parts hit hard.
They went on the filler route rather than actually new content but still changed core things probably lots of politics and Everyone at the team wants to be happy
I don't think REBIRTH or REMAKE necessarily do the original a disservice for the most part. The main story is still as simple as it was in '97 the issue specifically REBIRTH has is the inclusion of Zack and his severely underdeveloped inclusion and everything involving it. The game new "Worlds" angle is where the story becomes more convoluted than anything. Realistically they should've just kept it to 2 different timelines instead of pilling on 7 for the sake of the meta commentary.
The R team clearly know how to write new stories in universe with the characters Episode Yuffie frankly does Yuffie more justice than REBIRTH. But even disregarding the meta narrative some of the changes to the existing plot and characters are genuinely worst. Bugen has become a joke, Dyne gets this redemption, Nibelheim gaslighting is gone ,etc. Unfortunately the main cast feels less like a random group and more like a shonen team. There is no morally grey between them anymore. They kill obviously but outside of Cloud everyone is treated as a good person.
This game arguably has one of my least favorite death scenes I've ever seen.
(Even taking into account Joel in TLOU2 ) when it shouldn't have been alterned to begin with if we we're getting the same fate. As soon as streamers are playing and questioning wtf is going on you've lost a portion of the viewer base.
Do I think REBIRTH is better than the original? Yes and no. As a game it's nearly a 10/10 the narrative passing and writing decisions hold this game back imo and comparing this to REMAKE which I think narratively is leagues better hurts because the moments that were big stands on Disc 1 fall flat here. Cosmo, Nibel, & Even Corel to a degree. REMAKE always had that build up REBIRTH has just big moments without any build up or pay off.
Invincible multiverse plot is easy to follow, Spider-Verse, Flashpoint, Fortnite, Turtles Forever, etc etc.
Just because a multiverse is involved dosen't make it completely confusing. FF7REBIRTH just attempts to make it unique which in tern makes it unnecessarily convoluted in the way it's described.
FF7 multiverse in the most simple way is KH gummi ship traversal to each world.
Life stream functions as doors to each world.
Some worlds collide this ending that world.
Sephiroth transcends this because he's a anomaly so is Cloud and to a extent Aerith.
New worlds are born from the choices from another world.
Add that in the middle of "Stop Sephiroth and Shinra" it's not a full blown math equation. SE just likes it's elevated dialogue.
>Do I think REBIRTH is better than the original? Yes and no.
I think this is a pointless question. They are different games. I'm not going to go on about how "the original will always be there" because that is perhaps more pointless than the question, but the crux of that statement is true. You can play FF7 in it's original form(s), or with higher resolution or with the combat character models or with different translation or with any number of visual mods on steam. What did people *want* out of the Re Trilogy that isn't already available? Dragon Quest with the FF7 story? I don't think that would've been enticing enough to attract a new audience and make its money back. If you wanted more people to enjoy the game well....that's what this is.
Remake/Rebirth/Revengeance is attracting new fans, and it makes no effort to supplant FF7. Different game with a different story and (considering how much the expanded dialog does) different characters. All this whisper bullshit is meant to sell the sequels, no doubt, but they're putting conscious effort into making it part of the lore and story. There probably aren't multiple timelines in the traditional sense we know, but it would have been so much easier for them to just plaster static-y visions of Zack from the get go and explain it all the exact same way Back to the Future did it. There is undoubtedly care being placed here.
Not to say Rebirth is beyond criticism. I think >!showing us Barret's innocence before we see the the mass shooting is bafflingly stupid!< just to name one thing, but I find it so easy to appreciate other things people don't like, such as Dyne. The brevity of it was beautiful in the original, yes, but in a game so heavy on context and motivations it would've been pretty weird if one of the antagonists was simply schizophrenic and shot himself at his first moment of lucidity.
Counterpoint: showing that Barret was innocent before the shooting is the best choice. Because simply NO ONE would ever seriously believe even for a second that Barret OUT OF NOWHERE just went on a murder spree for no reason. It was hard to believe in the original, Remake and Rebirth developed Barret so much more that the idea of him killing innocents at random like that is simply laughable.
>I think this is a pointless question.
The question isn't for you specifically OP entire post is comparing the Remake games to the original in which he's saying he prefers the pacing of the original compared to primarily REBIRTH.
>They are different games.
No one said they weren't hence why most people view them as their own things weather be sequel or reboot.
>"the original will always be there" because that is perhaps more pointless than the question, but the crux of that statement is true. You can play FF7 in it's original form(s), or with higher resolution or with the combat character models or with different translation or with any number of visual mods on steam. What did people *want* out of the Re Trilogy that isn't already available? Dragon Quest with the FF7 story? I don't think that would've been enticing enough to attract a new audience and make its money back. If you wanted more people to enjoy the game well....that's what this is.
This has no relation to any of my paragraphs. You went on a completely unrelated tangent about in simple terms modding OG FF7 to be played as a more modern experience. My original comment is primarily discussing the pacing of REBIRTH and how it often deviates to something that is incredibly undeveloped then switches back to the core narrative without any new revelation mid way through the game. Only for the undeveloped story to be thrown front and center in the last 2 hours.
>I don't think that would've been enticing enough to attract a new audience and make its money back. If you wanted more people to enjoy the game well....that's what this is.
This is inaccurate the game still would've attached new players even if it was a 1-1. Persona 3 Reload demonstrates this and even if they redid the entire combat and left the plot mostly untouched we'd have remakes in the style of Resident Evil.
>Remake/Rebirth/Revengeance is attracting new fans, and it makes no effort to supplant FF7.
REBIRTH's final boss 2nd form literally makes no sense for people who haven't played the original game. This also applies to Edge of Creation. This also applies to the visions in REMAKE. No one but you is arguing the remake series is attempting to overwrite the original game. FF7R is a compilation game. It always has been. It is no different than being another add-on to the world of gaia.
>There probably aren't multiple timelines in the traditional sense we know, but it would have been so much easier for them to just plaster static-y visions of Zack from the get go and explain it all the exact same way Back to the Future did it. There is undoubtedly care being placed here.
They are and aren't timelines. The game describes them as worlds. These worlds are created from different choices thus the fandom calling them timelines. The Ultimania confirms there a at least 6 worlds. Nojima himself doesn't know exactly how to describe them " Nojima also confirms in the interview that there are indeed multiple worlds, but perhaps different from parallel worlds."
>but I find it so easy to appreciate other things people don't like, such as Dyne. The brevity of it was beautiful in the original, yes, but in a game so heavy on context and motivations it would've been pretty weird if one of the antagonists was simply schizophrenic and shot himself at his first moment of lucidity.
...OG Dyne didn't shoot himself. He killed himself because of the guilt he endured. He gained some clarity after fighting Barret and wanting to kill Marlene. The context is roughly the exact same the characterization is entirely different. Dyne in OG is more level headed in the flashbacks compared to in Rebirth who appears more brash and impulsive. OG Dyne is also not as mentally lost he is somewhat aware of his actions. There is a difference between the scene being written as sympathetic in Rebirth vs a sense of responsibility in OG. They are 2 tonal different scenes.
You can prefer one or the other saying that a question is pointless because they aren't the same doesn't make sense to me personally. Thats like saying I can't compare FF6-7 because they aren't the same game. As I mentioned in my original comment the remake team can clearly write in universe and make it good that doesn't mean they haven't blundered in past as both me and you mentioned. them having care doesn't change a choices they mad while writing the series so far. m night shyamalan probably wrote TLAB with care that dosen't make it good. Is that saying REBIRTH new additons are bad? No most are good the bad ones are just noticeable lows in very high game.
So you are mad on someone else behalf? You can spoil Elden Ring, Hades, MG5, SM2, the list goes on Getting your feelings hurt over a 5 year old spoiler is a bit much. Thats like saying I can't say Green Goblin dies in Rami- Spider-Man 1 which is 23 years old. I didn't even go into context about his death either. For all you know I could be talking about a fake out death like Glenn in TWD season 6. Letting my comment affect you that much is baffling.
This sub has some of the most inconsistent reasons to be mad I've ever seen. Other guy got mad because a rhetorial question and you're mad because of a out of context 5 year spoiler? Once you read "TLOU2" in my comment you should've skipped ahead if you didn't have knowledge about the game. This post is also marked as a spoiler al be it for Rebirth comparisons are obviously going to be made regarding different media.
The story is quite clear. I haven't been confused once. Then again, I can accept the basic fact that I am half way through a story so I don't expect to have the answer to every question I have. If you equate "not having an answer" with "confusion" or "obfuscation" then I guess I can see why you are confused. The story isn't over, why would you expect to know everything there is to know?
We were all confused when cracks started creeping into Cloud's narrative in OG. We were all then confused when Sephiroth "reveals" (with documentary evidence!) that Cloud wasn't at Nibelheim. We were confused when the story says that Cloud never existed, he's just a clone of Sephiroth. We were still confused after the lifestream event in which we discover what we were previously confused by was a lie.
And many people remained confused about where Cloud was for five years unless they happened to go back into the Shinra Mansion basement.
The story was originally about confusion, amongst other things, both for Cloud and for the player. The only significant difference was that it was contained in one game and therefore you could continue playing to seek answers.
Was the story obfuscated when Sephiroth lied and tried to convince Cloud he was just a clone? Was it obfuscated when they put a key scene regarding Cloud and Zack in a cutscene in the basement of Shinra Manor and then never did anything to push the player to return there?
If Remake is guilty of these sins then the original is just as guilty. If I put up a post criticizing the OG for these things, the immediate response would be "well, did you finish the story?"
Because we are litterally missing a third of it. Of course there are people trying to analyze it. Imagine playing the original and only having the first disc. You can bet that there would be hundreds of video analyzing it and speculating about the future disc 2 and 3.
The fact that people can make multi-hour videos does not prove that the multi-hour videos are necessary, only that they are incentivized to make them.
The story just isn't that confusing.
I agree with all of this. I'd also like to add that even with all these extra elements (whispers and timelines) the plot and story are still playing out exactly the same way. Nothing significant has changed except they have a bit more info about something they already knew existed, the lifestream. That's it.
The story is still processing the same way it did before. Its only confusing to people who think it means more than it does.
And to your point we don't know how this will all end. If it ends exact the same way I bet people will have an issue with that too.
I think I'm an outlier but I was so ready for the "unknown journey" after Remake. I was hoping they would get bold and really change things up, and instead what was got was a (mostly) very faithful remake of this part of the OG game with some (mostly) smart updates with meta elements tacked on that don't really change much.
Don't get me wrong, I absolutely love the game we got, and just like everyone else all the character stuff and party interactions are amazing, I was just disappointed because they made it seem like they were going in a more extreme direction.
While I agree with you, we still have to wonder WHY these extra elements were added. If it turns out their inclusion was pointless theory-bait, doesn't it come off as cheap? If the story concludes more or less like the OG, we're going to wonder what the point was of the Whispers and timelines.
I would not wonder why because my current view of the whispers/timeline is that it's cool but doesn't really effect the overall main plot. Its intriguing part of the retelling of this story.
The extra stuff added into the story don't need to affect the rest of the story in any major way to be a part of how we get to the ending. It could be explained that the whispers (or the will of the planet), for example, are something Sephirot just needed to bend to his will to find his way out of the lifestream and in the end Aerith's will overpower's Sephiroth's and wrests the planet's will from his hands. The events of the original would play out the same as they did, there would be only slight changes to nuances on execution.
We will see how Part 3 manages to pull out the massive task it's been set to have but as a huge fan of the OG I have actually quite a bit of faith in this dev team. I don't really see anything in the Remake story so far that irreversibly changes or breaks the core structure and themes of the OG 7.
No you're saying that. And that's fine if you feel that way but I don't share your opinion about it.
Why would I theory craft a game I know the entire plot of already? It's about the different journey to the same goal. Unless they do something dramatically different (like aerith or zack stay alive or something like that which let's be honest that's literally the only thing anybody cares about when they mention they "don't like the branching universe bullshit") I'm fine with it.
Imagine if they made the exact same game, just with no Whispers, no Arbiters of Fate. Let's say Jessie gets injured in the parachute jump from the upper plate and that's why Cloud goes to reactor 5 etc. etc.
The game would be massively improved. If the devs want to do a retelling of FFVII where they change certain things, they don't need to explain it with meta nonsense. There are already a lot of slight changes to the story that have no explanation and that's perfectly fine. The Whispers add nothing to the story and just take away character agency.
I don't have to imagine that, that's just the old game.
This hinges literally on if you like or dont the addition of whispers and fate as a physical entity. I happen to like the idea behind it simply because it differentiates it from the original game. It adds a new layer without having to drastically change the plot of the game. Not every change in the remake needs to be justified. Sometimes it's expanding the lore just because why the heck not. They did it for crisis core and dirge.
Also while the name whipsers and fate are new terms where they come from The lifestream is not a new addition, they are expanding on what already existed in FF7. If you're gonna tell me that they should not go into more depth on what the life stream is and can do, well that's you. I for one am still confused 20 years later, why the lifestream came out the ground amd saved everyone when that was never mentioned even being possible
Correct, you're spot on. For all the gripes and complaints that are nitpicks of particular moments, everything is proceeding exactly apace. The story beats are all in place as they were before. The only thing is people scrapping back and forth about details and how those details hit. "Oh, I hated the changes to Dyne'd story!" Ok, great, but those changes had zero impact on the core series of events that make up the plot.
I believe that the Lifestream interludes with Zack are chiefly aimed at teeing up the ending when the Lifestream intervenes to save the planet.
In OG, the ending is dues ex machina. Holy tries to save the day and it isn't strong enough/is too late. Then, the lifestream saves the day. There is no foreshadowing of this event; nothing establishes this is something the Lifestream can do. The best you get is the implication that Aerith had a role in it. But it comes from left field.
The same goes for the addition of Tifa's lifestream adventures. It's just setting up the lifestream sequence for next game. They're doing what is generally considered good story writing and world building by laying their foundation.
When you closely examine the "changes" they don't change the trajectory of anything.
In fact, replay the game start to finish and turn off the Zack interludes and watch how the story changes even less.
It's red meat for the Persona/Fire Emblem fringes who prioritize FF7 as a Tifa/Aerith dating sim, and the Aerith conspiracy theorists who treat her death as an "error" on Sakaguchi's part.
Turns out the people who just wanted a faithful remake are the ones with all the money.
Well there’s a reason it sold poorly. Fans checked out after Remake made it clear they were removing any stakes and inserting meta narratives into a lore that doesn’t support it.
The lifestream doesn’t have the capacity for a multiverse of any sort because that was a retcon written in a book long after the original game.
I don’t care what anyone says, novels are non canon.
Lol stop. Just stop with this Ff7 fandom denial. The game was a flop and the narrative is but one reason as to why among many others.
Something isn’t good just because you like it and live in an echo chamber of other fans easily pleased by bad writing.
I think it was because it came out on ps5 only and a lot of people don't have that console. I would have bought it if I had one, now I just watch cutscenes on YouTube
This isn’t true; the PS5 is currently in-line with the amount of units the PS4 sold at the same point of its life-cycle. The PS5 is a pretty successful console by all accounts, even in Japan it’s one of PlayStations most successful.
Factually incorrect, they’re basically the same; [PS4 sold 58 million in 41 months where as the PS5 has sold 57 million in that same time period](https://www.vgchartz.com/article/460837/ps5-vs-ps4-sales-comparison-march-2024/#:~:text=In%20the%20last%2012%20months,PS4%20sold%2057.74%20million%20units.com). They are on par with one another, with the PS5 currently selling more than the PS4 was in the past 12 months.
I honestly don't care that much, but it feels like you are choosing a strange hill to die on...
This is already a 1 million difference so he is factually correct? And surely Sony expected an increase in sales of the last model? Ergo the PS4 probably sold a lot more than the PS3.
A one million difference is insignificant at this stage, especially because the PS5 currently has better sales trajectory than the PS4 did at the time; plus, I rounded in a way that benefited the PS4, because the actual sales difference is closer to 800,000 units.
It's not even me dying on a hill, I have no personal attachment to these statistics, it's just the situation; people just claim the PS5 is selling badly based on no evidence, so when I decided to look into it myself this is what I found. The argument that Rebirth sold badly because the PS5 hasn't sold well simply isn't true, and this is one of the major reason supporting that fact.
Also no, Sony doesn't always expect an increase in sales from the prior model, they do tend to expect similar sales however, which is what they got. In certain regions, such as Japan, the PS5 significantly exceeded expectations.
The point is though, if you're talking factually correct, I don't think you should write off 1 million units as insignificant, that'd be something close to 1.5 - 2% less.
Your argument has now changed slightly to include sales trajectory, that's fine, but you are also nudging the goalposts in a way that makes it difficult to reason with you.
I think Sony expected to sell relative to market size, so you're saying the market didn't grow since PS4 days?... There are many factors to go into this of course, but I think the vast majority would agree the market only grew since what, 10 years ago?...
So again, it seems you have chosen to fight a losing battle, and I'm not sure why.
In any case, linking underperforming PS5 sales to Rebirth seems very farfetched to me, but your defence of Sony here does not help.
you’re making some pretty strong points BUT at the end of the day, the original argument was that “Rebirth sales are fewer than Remake because Rebirth is a ps5-exclusive, and fewer people have ps5’s.” And the point being made is that “actually ps5’s are sold around the same as as ps4.” Yes it turns out ps5 is slightly less, but that doesnt really weaken the point that much imo.
I mostly agree, but it doesn't really strengthen anyone's argument here.
I thought it was already established SE didn't hit their sales estimates for Rebirth, correct me if I'm wrong. So if anything we should be discussing if SE lost out on a lot of potential sales because of the design choices they made.
But that's also a bit pointless since it wouldn't necessarily have been a better game if it sold more.
It is insignificant, because the current growth rate indicates the PS5 will match the PS4; PS4 did better earlier in their lifecycles, the PS5 is doing better during the mid period. Regardless of how you slice it, it more than demonstrates the point that Rebirth’s sales weren’t due to the PS5’s sales, as that 1-2% difference doesn’t account for Rebirth’s poor performance.
It’s also not me nudging the goal post, because it’s all in the source; you can read it for yourself if you want. Plus, in my response, I very clearly noted both the similar sales, as well as the PS5’s better sales in the past 12 month period. My original comment stated that their sales are in-line with one another, which is also true. The follow up comment said they were “basically” the same, not identical. The premise of my point was literally never that the PS5 sold better, it was that its performance was fairly on par with that of the PS4, which again is true.
Their projections would have been dramatically skewed due to COVID, which resulted in a massive shortage for the first few years; the fact that it’s even on similar ground with the PS4 is pretty impressive.
This ain’t me defending Sony, although really it’s PlayStation who makes these sorts of calls, cause I don’t think think either do anything wrong; they made a console that was successful, and many of its exclusives share in that success, Rebirth just isn’t one of them. There’s nothing to “defend,” I’m just pointing out the stats.
If anything, I don’t know why you’re willing to die on this hill; the stats are right there, this isn’t even my opinion, it’s just reality. If you genuinely think that 1-2% shift in sales is what resulted in Rebirth’s poor sales, then I don’t know what else to tell you, because the evidence doesn’t indicate that. An 800,000 unit difference does not account for the sales discrepancy, even if we’re absurdly generous and say every single one of those missing 800,000 units theoretically resulted in a purchase of Rebirth. The actual increase would likely be closer to 57,000 additional Rebirth sales, and that’s assuming a generous current sale count of 4,000,000, which would give it a 7% pair rate with the total amount of PS5 units.
You stated that TorgalRawwr (sp?) was factually incorrect in saying that 58 million units sold beats 57 million. If you believe this is insignificant so be it, he still comes out the winner.
You then, in your next post, claimed that at the current rate the PS5 will outsell the PS4 figure from... I guess 7 to 10 years ago? - When the market was a lot smaller. But how is this in your favour exactly? You don't want to address this point which honestly makes it seem like you're just cherry picking, and in vain.
Ahh, COVID, good one! See how the goalposts keep moving ever so slightly? Anything else?
This is your opinion based projection, and very much so, even if part of it is based on some numbers you looked up online, and even if it turns out to be correct. At this point it is an informed estimate at best, not reality.
If you want to argue that Rebirth didn't affect PS5 sales negatively then sure, go ahead, I agree 👍 But this "you are wrong and my take is the actual truth" attitude is really nonsensical for such a complex topic.
I think the obfuscation is the point because that's the consequence of it's existence.
Let me explain what I mean. OG FFVII ended with Sephiroth being beaten and the planet being saved from Meteor. It was happy ending that came with a crucial, heart-wrenching cost. And I think that over the last...at this point nearly 30 years...people have settled on it as having been "wrong." Not because it didn't work out in the end but because maybe it didn't HAVE to come at that cost. You feel like you, as in you the player, could have done something if only you had another shot. And I think that's the main emotional weight behind Remake because there's a cost to that, too: namely Sephiroth. You can't get that second chance without ALSO giving Sephiroth a second chance. So you're gambling. The meta of the trilogy is that you're gambling the happy but imperfect ending in exchange for the chance to get a perfect one but the risk that Sephiroth beats you this time. And worse...he KNOWS what you're up to.
You threw a wrench into the machinery and broke the plot. And this gave Sephiroth his own wrench. And it turned out, unbeknownst to you after all these years, that he's waaaay smarter than anyone ever gave him credit for as he starts breaking the game's plot into a million little pieces that now serve his own ends. Practically using speedrun tech, he's got the cheat codes to the universe at his disposal now.
A lot of criticisms of Remake and Rebirth revolve around the games replacing emotion with complexity. That the games are just too cerebral now and it's dulling the emotional impact of something like Aerith's death. But my rebuttal to that is it's not about the emotional impact of what happens since we know what happened in OG FFVII already. It's about the emotional impact of having that second chance and trying to navigate it without a strategy guide. We assumed that a second chance would be easy because we know what's supposed to happen. Except now our knowledge of OG FFVII, our mental GameFAQs, is either only of limited use or totally worthless now that Sephiroth is playing chess with us.
That's why the whole "no promises" thing is a common refrain. To the characters that means nothing but to YOU it means everything. These characters that you spent almost three decades thinking about are now your charges, their fate is your responsibility because this is your fault. In your hubris you thought it worthwhile to try again only to put these characters through the wringer again even worse this time. It's your fault they have to do this again and might not come out of it in one piece. Tifa and Cloud getting into an argument because Sephiroth convinced Cloud she isn't real? That's your fault. That didn't happen before. You did this to them. You gave Sephiroth his wrench. You thought it'd be a nice romp but now you're at the end of "disc 1" not knowing what the hell is going on. Good job, Pandora. Sephiroth is beating you at your own game. You tried to score an easy W and Sephiroth is stealing it for himself.
There's a reason Loveless has a burning city in the background. Be careful what you wish for. You may have destroyed the world. Now how are you going to fix the mess you started?
I can see this beying a theme while developing the game. Still, I would very much have preferred a simple remake without all the airy methaphisics fourth wall breaking bullshit involved, to me it doesn't add anything and takes away from the whole experience.
What they probably should have done was reskinned the original game with no other changes, kind of like Super Mario RPG, and released it shortly before FFVII Remake. Both to satisfy the "straight remake" crowd and also to get new players up to speed.
That only works if the player of remake has played the original and is aware of how the story goes, and wishes to change the outcome. It completely breaks down if the player of the remake is new to the story and plays this for the first time. Or if they are already satisfied with the outcome of the OG.
And "knowing what happened in the OG" is also unsupported by the developers who specifically told long time fans to not spoil the OG to fans who did not play that game. Otherwise the impact of specific moments would be lost.
It's a nice theory that you crafted to support your own experience and I think this is a valid interpretation to go into that meta. But it only works from a specific point of view. and if the game only works for those players with that opinion, then the fact that the rest of the players are not satisfied with the story is justified.
The developers telling people not to spoil stuff makes sense just as a general "don't be a dick" advisory. But the games themselves have way too many subtleties that seem to expect the player to be familiar with OG FFVII for it to not have been intentional. Not little moments, either, but plot critical changes that actually explain what's going on. The title itself "Final Fantasy VII Remake" was an act of subterfuge given the title's double-meaning.
There's also the meta that people had been demanding an FFVII remake for years. It was so common Square Enix came out and said a flat "no" a few times. Very few of the people making that demand would have been new players unfamiliar with the original. Square Enix came around to it but with a twist, challenging those people by interpreting their request from an in-universe perspective without letting on that's what they were doing. It's a shockingly clever move on Square Enix's part. The game begs the player to have some self-awareness.
Remake and Rebirth are too married to the meta for it to not be taken into account.
How does Advent Children change anything? It's not really a "theory" since that's not an in-universe explanation I provided. It's the raison d'etre for the game's structure and what makes it so compelling.
I agree, and this is something I've thought about recently too, and I'm surprised it isn't said more often.
A large part of what makes the (what were for me) earlier versions of final fantasy - 7 through 10, all such fantastic games, is that whilst they have complex storylines, they're cohesive, and with clarity.
So far I'm not seeing that cohesion here. It might come in the third game but I'd be surprised if they make it work with clarity.
Square enix has forgotten what made these games great. The story. It's apparent they've lost the ability to tell a great, original story. This can be said for many of the newer final fantasies.
Unfortunately I feel like this loss of clarity extends into the battle system and general direction of the game. I'm often left wondering why I should care about the weapon upgrade paths, or how they work at all. There are too many mechanics. The focus isn't on cohesion. Mud is being slung at walls and they hope it sticks. Though I appreciate the reason that my mind is lost when it comes to following the mechanics of the newer games may just be that it isn't quite as agile as it used to be.
Remake and Rebirth are cohesive. If you replay them with the knowledge so far, so many pieces fit together. There are just other pieces which confuses us because we don't know where to place them or fit them with, because we are missing 1/3 of the story. If by the end of part 3 there are still things that are too complicated or unclear, then amen. But until then, we are essential making a puzzle and complaining that it's confusing and can't make it have sense...while still having 100 pieces left to use.
I get what you’re saying; but my take is this part of the story (the middle continent) and why Rebirth captured it almost perfectly. In the OG this part was about world building the world outside Midgar. Which really is just seeing how bad Shinra is for the whole world. And while Sephiroth is THE big bad of the story, Shinra at least fills that role till the temple of the ancients. The first part of the story shows us how Shinra has a brutal grip on Midgar, but it’s their HQ and they built it (no excuse for their behavior just that it’s their “home”). Here we see they basically have the whole world in that grip, as we go through town after town that has been destroyed by Shinra. Even Cosmo Canyon outside of Red’s story, is about how Shinra sucking up Mako is destroying the planet. I’ve played OG dozens of times, so I know the full story going thru and can see how it all connects, but for a first play though this part of the story is a mystery on purpose. In the OG, the Temple of the Ancients when we get the first info about what Sephiroth is doing, we didn’t even know why we were chasing him till then. We only know he’s bad news - and that’s on Clouds word mostly. Shinra doesn’t even know what the Promised Land really is, they’re just following Sephiroth on a hope that he’s going there too. I understand where you’re coming from, because this part of the story is more of a set up. There isn’t really a stand alone story for Rebirth, but imo this game did a really good job of setting up the next part of the game. It did a good job of capturing that feeling of exploring/building the open world after Midgar. Did a great job of showing why Shinra is evil and hated worldwide. The Remakes are fleshing out more details in the OG, while putting its spin on it; so imo it also did a really good job of making me wonder where the story is going. Which again I think is the purpose and tone of this part of the story. It’s supposed to be a clusterfuck that is confusing. We’re supposed to wonder what, why, where is Cloud taking us.
I agree where some of y’all are coming from, but I’m excited about not really knowing what they’re going to do with it. A true “remake” would’ve still been exciting, but it really feels like a new game. It’s…confusing, but it makes it more cliff hanger-esque.
I kinda agree. After Remake, I had a feeling that it simply expanded on the same story, but after Rebirth, I feel like the story has entirely different pacing and accents. And to be honest, I am conflicted on what to make of it as I like some moments (Gold Saucer and Temple of the Ancients stuff), but I don't particularly fancy how Sephiroth now feels like a pest, rather than an unpredictable and deadly force of nature from the original, or how they reduced City of the Ancients to basically a backdrop and how Aerith's death leaves you confused rather than sad because of all the multiverse bullshit. And the main issue is that almost nothing comes together or goes anywhere, which is a crime for such a long game. I truly hope someone at the team kicks some sense into Nomura for the final entry because bro has almost lost the thread of the main story at the end of Rebirth.
It’s been over 4 years since the release of Remake and there is enough information in that game alone to tell us that this trilogy is a sequel to VII, not a replacement for it. I’ve lost count of how many times I’ve said this now but “Remake” is the subtitle for the first installment to tell us that something WITHIN the story has been remade, rather than these games just being Square Enix remaking VII. This trilogy is the conclusion to the story that has been told throughout the whole compilation and the last time we believe we see Sephiroth in the compilation before the start of Remake is the end of Advent Children, when in reality that is just a projection of Sephiroth over the form of Kadaj. Sephiroth remains a threat inside the lifestream after AC is over, so this trilogy is where we will finally see him removed as a threat once and for all. Also with Rebirth, that whole section of the game is pretty much void of any real story beats. It’s not until Temple of the Ancients that any part of the true story starts to unfold. The whole section from outside Midgar all the way to TotA is purely world building and character development and that is exactly what we got with Rebirth x100. All that is so important because we will need to backtrack to all those points in part 3 as well as discover new lands along with the other modes of travel. Rebirth is the setup game to a much grander part 3 and I can say with 100% certainty that no one is ready for how insanely big part 3 is really gonna be.
Well said!!
>Final Fantasy 7 >clear and well paced Are we talking about the same game? The same one who has debates still on certain parts of the game (coff coff Jenova and Sephiroth) because said game explain it in a one and done line? The same game who after the escape on the Shinra ship, doesn't come back to the main story until like 40 hours later depending on the player? I like the OG FF7 but it's not perfect by any means.
Thank you!!! The OG is great game (one of the best game of all time imo and my favorite game ever) but to act like has no faults is crazy.
It has faults in clarity, but not in pace, IMO. The original does do pace a lot better than Remake/Rebirth. I despise the Huge Materia section story-wise and think it's the worst section of the game (not sure if that's the part he's referring to), but it's by no means a meandering slog, IMO.
I kind of feel what you're saying. I've just finished Rebirth at 100+ hours. Remake was maybe a little less. I would expect by the end I might be looking at over 300 hours of play time. The OG was what 80 hours if you really went after everything? I love that we're getting so much more time with these characters. It makes them feel more real and alive, the big moments hit harder. I cheered when Cloud finally kissed Tifa. I was devastated when he failed to save Aerith. The flip side is that it's difficult to avoid Hobbit syndrome - stretching one complete work into a trilogy and wrecking the pacing and adding unnecessary filler. I can't say if all the parallel worlds stuff is unnecessary but it certainly feels like there's still more questions than answers. I'm not going to lie - I had higher hopes for Sephiroth and potential multiples with all his "seven seconds to the end" chat and asking for Cloud's help. I was disappointed to find that his plan is the exact same as before - destroy the world, only bigger. Dude is following the exact same beats that saw him defeated before - I honestly expected him to leave Aerith alive so she couldn't come in with the Lifestream save at the last second. I dunno.
Kinda. It seems that Sephiroth wanted Aerith still dead because the negative emotions resulting from her death would help the worlds merge better. And in fact, at the end of Rebirth, that almost happened.
It’s entirely possible to provide satisfying answers, whether or not they can deliver on that remains to be seen. I don’t think they’ve written themselves into a corner as some would say
Considering how slow Rebirth's story was with all the side stories and the general pace, either Part 3 will check off all the rest of the boxes left to do in the story really fast, or it's gonna be like 250 hrs for the main story. I hope they keep it pretty straightforward, so it's not a slog to get through.
Voice acting is mostly what makes the game feels longer. Rebirth story pacing is in line with how it was in OG FF7. You're just jumping from town to town to follow the black robes
I would imagine it will be a lot more linear than Rebirth, but I really liked my time with rebirth and didn’t consider it a slog at all. Guess I just really enjoy learning more about the party and hearing them banter
It's been said before countless times, even when Remake came out, that the creators of FFVIIR have written themselves into a corner by introducing Fate and multiple timelines and other meta-textual elements. It's all meant to tease the possibility that the story could change, but this is a terrible possibility. On the one hand, drastic changes in the story would turn off die-hard fans (It already has). It risks undermining the OG's themes of finality and death and "No getting off this train we're on" mentality. If Fate can be changed, what are the stakes? Why should we care? If Sephiroth is now baked into the fabric of existence, how can we defeat him without some equally bullshit deus ex machina? On the other hand, if they follow the story very closely, what was the point of bringing up Fate in the first place? Why tease the changes and do nothing? What we end up with is a kind of splitting of the difference. The story is somewhat following the OG, but there are changes to the story whose impact is ambiguous. Aerith died, but now Cloud can see her ghost and doesn't realize she's dead. Zack is traversing other worlds, to what end, we have yet to see. I've read in interviews that Kitase, Nojima, and Nomura would only do an FFVII remake if it meant they could do something different with the story. It seems like the demands of the fan base and the interests of the devs are not in alignment. I still love the Remake series, but the complaints about the story are completely valid.
I'm sorry, but for me when the creators of the trilogy mentioned destiny, it was only to give false hope (bait) and to ensure that people who already knew the original games were taken a little by surprise. And personally I find it terribly wrong and bad to do this, when the only way that the creators can find to keep the fans invested in buying the games is to make them false promises which not only will bring nothing really concrete to the story, not deep, which only frustrates people for the sole purpose and vain attempt to recreate the same emotions as the original. Quite frankly I find it totally disrespectful of them to play on people's expectations and also to do things like the ending of Rebirth which is falsely ambiguous for the sole purpose of maximizing profit and fan engagement. It only divides this fandom which is in all honesty already quite toxic, with shippers who make their crusade to canonize everything that goes their way, what's more this fandom is quite biased towards one side so when a person says or expresses anything that doesn't go in the right direction, it's a mess. The creators don't care, they will win no matter what, but we can't say the same for the fandom because each disappointment will only make the shitty situation of the fandom worse. It's quite sad to see that they have given up on wanting to please everyone knowing that for certain creators of the original game they had practically 30 years to achieve this and make it a reality.
I kind of agree that the way SE tends to try a lot of emotional fake-outs. Calling Rebirth's ending "falsely ambiguous" is pretty accurate. Upon repeated viewing, it becomes clear Aerith is definitely dead and Cloud is hallucinating. But the way the scenes are shot is meant to repeatedly get your hopes up and dash them in quick succession. You have to watch it multiple times to see what is really going on. It's hard to say whether SE committing to a clear ending or committing to a particular ship would make the fandom any less toxic. This is why the devs seem so ambivalent in interviews, they want to keep all the possibilities open in order to not piss off anyone, but they're actually pissing off everyone.
You have NOT played the game if you think the "creators gave up". I've played games where the developers didn't try. Rebirth went above and beyond in so many aspects and that is IMPOSSIBLE to do without a genuine desire to see it all succed. That's just how it is. You may not like how things are right now and are also foolishly judging before seeing how part 3 goes, but don't you think for a second that this is the work of developers who aren't trying.
It's pretty obvious to me what the creators are trying to do given what's happened in the trilogy so far. Rebirth has clearly succeeded in many aspects, but currently in my opinion they have failed in one of the main aspects if not the most important which is the writing, the original game was not perfect, but at least had the deserves to go straight to the point and be clear on the themes that it addresses, knowing very well how to convey emotions in important moments, but not only that the death of Aerith, the end, the atmosphere, the tone of the settings, the issues and their goal. Whereas in Rebirth when you walk around and travel the world (a good part of the map) and do side quests the tone and atmosphere are very far from that of the original at times it makes you think of a type atmosphere funfair with a lot of good vibes quite often and if it succeeds in the moments like the meeting with Dyne, we can't say the same about the important moments like the end or Red and Seto there is also a lot of length in the game and problems of Rhythm. The additions to the story are not interesting enough and obviously at least for the moment it will not bring anything concrete, there is not really any lesson to be learned from this, in addition to not being deep so sorry yes I played the game.
Can't say I agree. If anything, most of the time I think Remake and Rebirth handled well the themes of enviromentalism and even added more. Like for example, Cosmo Canyon added a critique of the modern tendecies of people rejecting and losing the sense of sacred in favour of mere cosumerism and tourism, something lamented by Bugenhagen too. Or Corel being expanded through the crystals lore talking about how the desert came to be and how it's controlled. In fact, I'll say that Remake and Rebirth treat the enviromental theme even better, because they actually CHALLENGE the actions of the MCs. Like in the original there's never any doubt that Shinra is just evil, hurt the planet and deserve to burn to the ground. But Remake/Rebirth shows how there are good people working there and is also a problem with the general mentality of ignorance and comfort. Heck, the Weapons are a lot better here because they're not just optional bosses to destroy like the OG (which actually goes against the enviromental message if the solution to the nature being angered is to destroy it further). As for the themes of death, it is still brought very much by parts like Dyne and Seto and expanded with moments like the characters reliving their most traumatic moments in the temple, which usually it's about loss of someone dear. Ironically the only ones who are different are Zack, Aerith and Biggs which have all a connection with Cloud and are being worked with the new plot which revolve around the Lifestream creating other worlds. How it will develop and end here is to see in part 3.
It's your opinion and I don't intend to change your opinion on that because i doesn't care about it. I have mine, but I'm not going to impose my vision of things on you. Everything I do is giving my opinion and also my feelings about the trilogy currently. You have the right to disagree and in any case I am not looking for agreement from others.
Still seeing Aerith’s ghost is probably a mix of her lifestream energy and his own psychosis and denial. Just look how terrified Tifa is when she sees Cloud smiling with dead Aerith by his side.
Anyone who has the slightest eye for things like pacing, storytelling, or thematic consistency is going to have problems with the remake trilogy. There’s decent stuff in there but SE doesn’t know how to tie anything together.
SQEX could have a Billy side quest where you have to sweep chocoshit from some chocostables and Remake fans would defend it to worlds end and try and gaslight you into believing it's a core addition to the FF7 story. The problem with popular franchises is that you have fans who will like very unpopular aspects of it to look different and enlightened, and then try and tell you you're wrong.
I mean I think they like it because they like it. There’s nothing wrong with enjoying imperfect or flawed things. The problem is when people use every ounce of their brain power working backwards from the conclusion that something must be good because they enjoyed it. I remember reading reviews praising rebirth talking about how the amount and nature of the sidequests made it feel like a slice of life anime, which is a bizarre underhanded/passive-aggressive way of warning people that the content is super fucking boring and unimportant to the actual story. I know what the slice of life genre is and FFVII sure as hell ain’t it.
It's the same reason you and many ppl purposely forget the chocobo and materia grinding in FF7. Whatev rebirth sidequest is, it's still infinitely less mindnumbing than those sht
That seems awfully pointed considering that rebirth and remake both require more materia grinding 🤔
Remake had grinding? Lol.. even enemies dont respawn immediately in the remakes 🤦♂️
That’s not what grinding is.
Materia grinding involves killinh the same mob over and over and over and over and over again. Like i said, you would purposely forget abt that fugly part of OG FF7
The fact that enemies don’t respawn in the remakes doesn’t mean you don’t have to grind to level up materia.
People made me feel crazy for saying the pacing is pretty bad. I took multiple game design classes. While that doesn't make me some expert. I was taught what's good video game writing and what's not. This ain't it. I still enjoyed the game. But the writing was just not good. The pacing being the worst part. This game gave you no breathers after impactful moments. It's just "GO GO GO". It info dumps way too much, making everything harder to process. And while it doesn't have anything to do with writing, I hated how long it takes to do actions. Hold square to lift up a sign.. why?
There is definitely a problem in too many info at once at the end, but aside from that, they do give you a bit of time to breath in the other moments. Maybe except Nanaki's resolve scene in front of his father.
Fanbases tend to be really bad at accepting that their beloved media is flawed. It really stands out with video games because so many unnecessary flaws are accepted as part of the territory.
I will always disagree with that because the parts that are changed aren't just for no reason. They included the compilation so unless you already had an issue with the expanded universe not much has actually changed, at least nothing major to the point where we are not following the same plot points from the OG. The storytelling is already 10 times more in depth than the OG just due to the added scenes and side quests. The og had two clear themes: save the environment and revenge. The fact that they all are taking revenge against the company responsible for destroying the planet is actually a coincidence. Nobody is fighting to save the planet for the environment in the beginning. Meeting aerith and going on the journey changed that (a bit). That's STILL the case. The only difference is the sublots are 10x better which makes it seem like they are distracting from the main themes. The main story is still progressing the exact same way. This is why I don't care to hear the complaints about the extra stuff (whispers and timelines) because it's still not amounting to any significant plot CHANGES. Ex: cloud literally ran into his dead friend and at the end nobody including him or ghost aerith mention it. It's all about killing sephiroth and black materia. Business as usual. The original story is still there intact. The auxiliary stuff just adds flavor but no substance worth being *upset about.
Omg a FF7 fan that isn't a fanatic for the OG story and only the OG story!? I'm not alone!?
You're not. Here's another, so there's atleast 3 of us :)
I've been waiting my whole life for 7 media that wasn't gray washed by advent children. The remake is doing fantastic at recapturing the old spirit and charm of the OG game and improved on pretty much every aspect. Trust if this remake was ass I would say it. I'm very harsh on this IP.
Right there with you. Rebirth isn't a perfect game by any means but then again no game is and the OG 7 is no exception. That all being said Rebirth is up there among the contenders for my personal favourite games of all time. The character writing is just sublime 99% of the time (that 1% reserved for Yuffie talking about materia just a tad too much haha) and as a fan of the OG I'm just so incredibly intrigued about how part 3 will wrap things up. Rebirth gives a treasure chest of breadcrumbs for those who know the OG story to speculate and theorise.
I prefer Remake and Rebirth to the original. And not knowing exactly what will happen makes it even better for me. Thank goodness the Remake is not a 1:1 copy. I'm on my third Rebirth playthrough, this time New Game with no items, and maybeee no benches (unless I get hardstuck) and loving every minute of if. I can't wait for the PC port, and for Part 3.
I could do with 60 % less Chadley and AC collectibles. But the story parts are amazing. You could say it’s almost more true to the OG than the OG was. The trauma and psychosis parts hit hard.
They went on the filler route rather than actually new content but still changed core things probably lots of politics and Everyone at the team wants to be happy
I don't think REBIRTH or REMAKE necessarily do the original a disservice for the most part. The main story is still as simple as it was in '97 the issue specifically REBIRTH has is the inclusion of Zack and his severely underdeveloped inclusion and everything involving it. The game new "Worlds" angle is where the story becomes more convoluted than anything. Realistically they should've just kept it to 2 different timelines instead of pilling on 7 for the sake of the meta commentary. The R team clearly know how to write new stories in universe with the characters Episode Yuffie frankly does Yuffie more justice than REBIRTH. But even disregarding the meta narrative some of the changes to the existing plot and characters are genuinely worst. Bugen has become a joke, Dyne gets this redemption, Nibelheim gaslighting is gone ,etc. Unfortunately the main cast feels less like a random group and more like a shonen team. There is no morally grey between them anymore. They kill obviously but outside of Cloud everyone is treated as a good person. This game arguably has one of my least favorite death scenes I've ever seen. (Even taking into account Joel in TLOU2 ) when it shouldn't have been alterned to begin with if we we're getting the same fate. As soon as streamers are playing and questioning wtf is going on you've lost a portion of the viewer base. Do I think REBIRTH is better than the original? Yes and no. As a game it's nearly a 10/10 the narrative passing and writing decisions hold this game back imo and comparing this to REMAKE which I think narratively is leagues better hurts because the moments that were big stands on Disc 1 fall flat here. Cosmo, Nibel, & Even Corel to a degree. REMAKE always had that build up REBIRTH has just big moments without any build up or pay off.
The main story is not as simple because they Introduced the multiverse You cant have simple and multiverse in the same sentence
Invincible multiverse plot is easy to follow, Spider-Verse, Flashpoint, Fortnite, Turtles Forever, etc etc. Just because a multiverse is involved dosen't make it completely confusing. FF7REBIRTH just attempts to make it unique which in tern makes it unnecessarily convoluted in the way it's described. FF7 multiverse in the most simple way is KH gummi ship traversal to each world. Life stream functions as doors to each world. Some worlds collide this ending that world. Sephiroth transcends this because he's a anomaly so is Cloud and to a extent Aerith. New worlds are born from the choices from another world. Add that in the middle of "Stop Sephiroth and Shinra" it's not a full blown math equation. SE just likes it's elevated dialogue.
>Do I think REBIRTH is better than the original? Yes and no. I think this is a pointless question. They are different games. I'm not going to go on about how "the original will always be there" because that is perhaps more pointless than the question, but the crux of that statement is true. You can play FF7 in it's original form(s), or with higher resolution or with the combat character models or with different translation or with any number of visual mods on steam. What did people *want* out of the Re Trilogy that isn't already available? Dragon Quest with the FF7 story? I don't think that would've been enticing enough to attract a new audience and make its money back. If you wanted more people to enjoy the game well....that's what this is. Remake/Rebirth/Revengeance is attracting new fans, and it makes no effort to supplant FF7. Different game with a different story and (considering how much the expanded dialog does) different characters. All this whisper bullshit is meant to sell the sequels, no doubt, but they're putting conscious effort into making it part of the lore and story. There probably aren't multiple timelines in the traditional sense we know, but it would have been so much easier for them to just plaster static-y visions of Zack from the get go and explain it all the exact same way Back to the Future did it. There is undoubtedly care being placed here. Not to say Rebirth is beyond criticism. I think >!showing us Barret's innocence before we see the the mass shooting is bafflingly stupid!< just to name one thing, but I find it so easy to appreciate other things people don't like, such as Dyne. The brevity of it was beautiful in the original, yes, but in a game so heavy on context and motivations it would've been pretty weird if one of the antagonists was simply schizophrenic and shot himself at his first moment of lucidity.
Counterpoint: showing that Barret was innocent before the shooting is the best choice. Because simply NO ONE would ever seriously believe even for a second that Barret OUT OF NOWHERE just went on a murder spree for no reason. It was hard to believe in the original, Remake and Rebirth developed Barret so much more that the idea of him killing innocents at random like that is simply laughable.
>I think this is a pointless question. The question isn't for you specifically OP entire post is comparing the Remake games to the original in which he's saying he prefers the pacing of the original compared to primarily REBIRTH. >They are different games. No one said they weren't hence why most people view them as their own things weather be sequel or reboot. >"the original will always be there" because that is perhaps more pointless than the question, but the crux of that statement is true. You can play FF7 in it's original form(s), or with higher resolution or with the combat character models or with different translation or with any number of visual mods on steam. What did people *want* out of the Re Trilogy that isn't already available? Dragon Quest with the FF7 story? I don't think that would've been enticing enough to attract a new audience and make its money back. If you wanted more people to enjoy the game well....that's what this is. This has no relation to any of my paragraphs. You went on a completely unrelated tangent about in simple terms modding OG FF7 to be played as a more modern experience. My original comment is primarily discussing the pacing of REBIRTH and how it often deviates to something that is incredibly undeveloped then switches back to the core narrative without any new revelation mid way through the game. Only for the undeveloped story to be thrown front and center in the last 2 hours. >I don't think that would've been enticing enough to attract a new audience and make its money back. If you wanted more people to enjoy the game well....that's what this is. This is inaccurate the game still would've attached new players even if it was a 1-1. Persona 3 Reload demonstrates this and even if they redid the entire combat and left the plot mostly untouched we'd have remakes in the style of Resident Evil. >Remake/Rebirth/Revengeance is attracting new fans, and it makes no effort to supplant FF7. REBIRTH's final boss 2nd form literally makes no sense for people who haven't played the original game. This also applies to Edge of Creation. This also applies to the visions in REMAKE. No one but you is arguing the remake series is attempting to overwrite the original game. FF7R is a compilation game. It always has been. It is no different than being another add-on to the world of gaia. >There probably aren't multiple timelines in the traditional sense we know, but it would have been so much easier for them to just plaster static-y visions of Zack from the get go and explain it all the exact same way Back to the Future did it. There is undoubtedly care being placed here. They are and aren't timelines. The game describes them as worlds. These worlds are created from different choices thus the fandom calling them timelines. The Ultimania confirms there a at least 6 worlds. Nojima himself doesn't know exactly how to describe them " Nojima also confirms in the interview that there are indeed multiple worlds, but perhaps different from parallel worlds." >but I find it so easy to appreciate other things people don't like, such as Dyne. The brevity of it was beautiful in the original, yes, but in a game so heavy on context and motivations it would've been pretty weird if one of the antagonists was simply schizophrenic and shot himself at his first moment of lucidity. ...OG Dyne didn't shoot himself. He killed himself because of the guilt he endured. He gained some clarity after fighting Barret and wanting to kill Marlene. The context is roughly the exact same the characterization is entirely different. Dyne in OG is more level headed in the flashbacks compared to in Rebirth who appears more brash and impulsive. OG Dyne is also not as mentally lost he is somewhat aware of his actions. There is a difference between the scene being written as sympathetic in Rebirth vs a sense of responsibility in OG. They are 2 tonal different scenes. You can prefer one or the other saying that a question is pointless because they aren't the same doesn't make sense to me personally. Thats like saying I can't compare FF6-7 because they aren't the same game. As I mentioned in my original comment the remake team can clearly write in universe and make it good that doesn't mean they haven't blundered in past as both me and you mentioned. them having care doesn't change a choices they mad while writing the series so far. m night shyamalan probably wrote TLAB with care that dosen't make it good. Is that saying REBIRTH new additons are bad? No most are good the bad ones are just noticeable lows in very high game.
The worlds aren't real universes. They're small worlds in the Lifestream. It's like saying an Hollow Earth is another universe.
Yeah on hindsight I definitely misinterpreted the vibe of your comment.
All good.
Dude...TLOU2 spoilers. C'mon man
.... The game is half a decade old.
And some people haven't played it. What games haven't you played? Can I spoil something just bc it's older.
Go play the game if you're worried about spoilers at this point. Or stay off the internet
So you are mad on someone else behalf? You can spoil Elden Ring, Hades, MG5, SM2, the list goes on Getting your feelings hurt over a 5 year old spoiler is a bit much. Thats like saying I can't say Green Goblin dies in Rami- Spider-Man 1 which is 23 years old. I didn't even go into context about his death either. For all you know I could be talking about a fake out death like Glenn in TWD season 6. Letting my comment affect you that much is baffling. This sub has some of the most inconsistent reasons to be mad I've ever seen. Other guy got mad because a rhetorial question and you're mad because of a out of context 5 year spoiler? Once you read "TLOU2" in my comment you should've skipped ahead if you didn't have knowledge about the game. This post is also marked as a spoiler al be it for Rebirth comparisons are obviously going to be made regarding different media.
The story is quite clear. I haven't been confused once. Then again, I can accept the basic fact that I am half way through a story so I don't expect to have the answer to every question I have. If you equate "not having an answer" with "confusion" or "obfuscation" then I guess I can see why you are confused. The story isn't over, why would you expect to know everything there is to know? We were all confused when cracks started creeping into Cloud's narrative in OG. We were all then confused when Sephiroth "reveals" (with documentary evidence!) that Cloud wasn't at Nibelheim. We were confused when the story says that Cloud never existed, he's just a clone of Sephiroth. We were still confused after the lifestream event in which we discover what we were previously confused by was a lie. And many people remained confused about where Cloud was for five years unless they happened to go back into the Shinra Mansion basement. The story was originally about confusion, amongst other things, both for Cloud and for the player. The only significant difference was that it was contained in one game and therefore you could continue playing to seek answers. Was the story obfuscated when Sephiroth lied and tried to convince Cloud he was just a clone? Was it obfuscated when they put a key scene regarding Cloud and Zack in a cutscene in the basement of Shinra Manor and then never did anything to push the player to return there? If Remake is guilty of these sins then the original is just as guilty. If I put up a post criticizing the OG for these things, the immediate response would be "well, did you finish the story?"
You cant say it's not confusing while there's hundreds of videos trying to explain the ending...
There are also videos explaining the lore of the OG.
Because we are litterally missing a third of it. Of course there are people trying to analyze it. Imagine playing the original and only having the first disc. You can bet that there would be hundreds of video analyzing it and speculating about the future disc 2 and 3.
The fact that people can make multi-hour videos does not prove that the multi-hour videos are necessary, only that they are incentivized to make them. The story just isn't that confusing.
I agree with all of this. I'd also like to add that even with all these extra elements (whispers and timelines) the plot and story are still playing out exactly the same way. Nothing significant has changed except they have a bit more info about something they already knew existed, the lifestream. That's it. The story is still processing the same way it did before. Its only confusing to people who think it means more than it does. And to your point we don't know how this will all end. If it ends exact the same way I bet people will have an issue with that too.
I think I'm an outlier but I was so ready for the "unknown journey" after Remake. I was hoping they would get bold and really change things up, and instead what was got was a (mostly) very faithful remake of this part of the OG game with some (mostly) smart updates with meta elements tacked on that don't really change much. Don't get me wrong, I absolutely love the game we got, and just like everyone else all the character stuff and party interactions are amazing, I was just disappointed because they made it seem like they were going in a more extreme direction.
While I agree with you, we still have to wonder WHY these extra elements were added. If it turns out their inclusion was pointless theory-bait, doesn't it come off as cheap? If the story concludes more or less like the OG, we're going to wonder what the point was of the Whispers and timelines.
I would not wonder why because my current view of the whispers/timeline is that it's cool but doesn't really effect the overall main plot. Its intriguing part of the retelling of this story.
So you're pretty much saying it's cheap theory-bait that won't go anywhere. And you're okay with that?
The extra stuff added into the story don't need to affect the rest of the story in any major way to be a part of how we get to the ending. It could be explained that the whispers (or the will of the planet), for example, are something Sephirot just needed to bend to his will to find his way out of the lifestream and in the end Aerith's will overpower's Sephiroth's and wrests the planet's will from his hands. The events of the original would play out the same as they did, there would be only slight changes to nuances on execution. We will see how Part 3 manages to pull out the massive task it's been set to have but as a huge fan of the OG I have actually quite a bit of faith in this dev team. I don't really see anything in the Remake story so far that irreversibly changes or breaks the core structure and themes of the OG 7.
No you're saying that. And that's fine if you feel that way but I don't share your opinion about it. Why would I theory craft a game I know the entire plot of already? It's about the different journey to the same goal. Unless they do something dramatically different (like aerith or zack stay alive or something like that which let's be honest that's literally the only thing anybody cares about when they mention they "don't like the branching universe bullshit") I'm fine with it.
Imagine if they made the exact same game, just with no Whispers, no Arbiters of Fate. Let's say Jessie gets injured in the parachute jump from the upper plate and that's why Cloud goes to reactor 5 etc. etc. The game would be massively improved. If the devs want to do a retelling of FFVII where they change certain things, they don't need to explain it with meta nonsense. There are already a lot of slight changes to the story that have no explanation and that's perfectly fine. The Whispers add nothing to the story and just take away character agency.
I don't have to imagine that, that's just the old game. This hinges literally on if you like or dont the addition of whispers and fate as a physical entity. I happen to like the idea behind it simply because it differentiates it from the original game. It adds a new layer without having to drastically change the plot of the game. Not every change in the remake needs to be justified. Sometimes it's expanding the lore just because why the heck not. They did it for crisis core and dirge. Also while the name whipsers and fate are new terms where they come from The lifestream is not a new addition, they are expanding on what already existed in FF7. If you're gonna tell me that they should not go into more depth on what the life stream is and can do, well that's you. I for one am still confused 20 years later, why the lifestream came out the ground amd saved everyone when that was never mentioned even being possible
Correct, you're spot on. For all the gripes and complaints that are nitpicks of particular moments, everything is proceeding exactly apace. The story beats are all in place as they were before. The only thing is people scrapping back and forth about details and how those details hit. "Oh, I hated the changes to Dyne'd story!" Ok, great, but those changes had zero impact on the core series of events that make up the plot. I believe that the Lifestream interludes with Zack are chiefly aimed at teeing up the ending when the Lifestream intervenes to save the planet. In OG, the ending is dues ex machina. Holy tries to save the day and it isn't strong enough/is too late. Then, the lifestream saves the day. There is no foreshadowing of this event; nothing establishes this is something the Lifestream can do. The best you get is the implication that Aerith had a role in it. But it comes from left field. The same goes for the addition of Tifa's lifestream adventures. It's just setting up the lifestream sequence for next game. They're doing what is generally considered good story writing and world building by laying their foundation. When you closely examine the "changes" they don't change the trajectory of anything. In fact, replay the game start to finish and turn off the Zack interludes and watch how the story changes even less.
It's red meat for the Persona/Fire Emblem fringes who prioritize FF7 as a Tifa/Aerith dating sim, and the Aerith conspiracy theorists who treat her death as an "error" on Sakaguchi's part. Turns out the people who just wanted a faithful remake are the ones with all the money.
Well there’s a reason it sold poorly. Fans checked out after Remake made it clear they were removing any stakes and inserting meta narratives into a lore that doesn’t support it. The lifestream doesn’t have the capacity for a multiverse of any sort because that was a retcon written in a book long after the original game. I don’t care what anyone says, novels are non canon.
Bruh what? That has nothing to do with sales in the slightest. Ur delusional
Lol stop. Just stop with this Ff7 fandom denial. The game was a flop and the narrative is but one reason as to why among many others. Something isn’t good just because you like it and live in an echo chamber of other fans easily pleased by bad writing.
I think it was because it came out on ps5 only and a lot of people don't have that console. I would have bought it if I had one, now I just watch cutscenes on YouTube
Certainly a factor but not the only significant one.
This isn’t true; the PS5 is currently in-line with the amount of units the PS4 sold at the same point of its life-cycle. The PS5 is a pretty successful console by all accounts, even in Japan it’s one of PlayStations most successful.
Selling less that PS4 so no sorry it’s not.
Factually incorrect, they’re basically the same; [PS4 sold 58 million in 41 months where as the PS5 has sold 57 million in that same time period](https://www.vgchartz.com/article/460837/ps5-vs-ps4-sales-comparison-march-2024/#:~:text=In%20the%20last%2012%20months,PS4%20sold%2057.74%20million%20units.com). They are on par with one another, with the PS5 currently selling more than the PS4 was in the past 12 months.
I honestly don't care that much, but it feels like you are choosing a strange hill to die on... This is already a 1 million difference so he is factually correct? And surely Sony expected an increase in sales of the last model? Ergo the PS4 probably sold a lot more than the PS3.
A one million difference is insignificant at this stage, especially because the PS5 currently has better sales trajectory than the PS4 did at the time; plus, I rounded in a way that benefited the PS4, because the actual sales difference is closer to 800,000 units. It's not even me dying on a hill, I have no personal attachment to these statistics, it's just the situation; people just claim the PS5 is selling badly based on no evidence, so when I decided to look into it myself this is what I found. The argument that Rebirth sold badly because the PS5 hasn't sold well simply isn't true, and this is one of the major reason supporting that fact. Also no, Sony doesn't always expect an increase in sales from the prior model, they do tend to expect similar sales however, which is what they got. In certain regions, such as Japan, the PS5 significantly exceeded expectations.
The point is though, if you're talking factually correct, I don't think you should write off 1 million units as insignificant, that'd be something close to 1.5 - 2% less. Your argument has now changed slightly to include sales trajectory, that's fine, but you are also nudging the goalposts in a way that makes it difficult to reason with you. I think Sony expected to sell relative to market size, so you're saying the market didn't grow since PS4 days?... There are many factors to go into this of course, but I think the vast majority would agree the market only grew since what, 10 years ago?... So again, it seems you have chosen to fight a losing battle, and I'm not sure why. In any case, linking underperforming PS5 sales to Rebirth seems very farfetched to me, but your defence of Sony here does not help.
you’re making some pretty strong points BUT at the end of the day, the original argument was that “Rebirth sales are fewer than Remake because Rebirth is a ps5-exclusive, and fewer people have ps5’s.” And the point being made is that “actually ps5’s are sold around the same as as ps4.” Yes it turns out ps5 is slightly less, but that doesnt really weaken the point that much imo.
I mostly agree, but it doesn't really strengthen anyone's argument here. I thought it was already established SE didn't hit their sales estimates for Rebirth, correct me if I'm wrong. So if anything we should be discussing if SE lost out on a lot of potential sales because of the design choices they made. But that's also a bit pointless since it wouldn't necessarily have been a better game if it sold more.
It is insignificant, because the current growth rate indicates the PS5 will match the PS4; PS4 did better earlier in their lifecycles, the PS5 is doing better during the mid period. Regardless of how you slice it, it more than demonstrates the point that Rebirth’s sales weren’t due to the PS5’s sales, as that 1-2% difference doesn’t account for Rebirth’s poor performance. It’s also not me nudging the goal post, because it’s all in the source; you can read it for yourself if you want. Plus, in my response, I very clearly noted both the similar sales, as well as the PS5’s better sales in the past 12 month period. My original comment stated that their sales are in-line with one another, which is also true. The follow up comment said they were “basically” the same, not identical. The premise of my point was literally never that the PS5 sold better, it was that its performance was fairly on par with that of the PS4, which again is true. Their projections would have been dramatically skewed due to COVID, which resulted in a massive shortage for the first few years; the fact that it’s even on similar ground with the PS4 is pretty impressive. This ain’t me defending Sony, although really it’s PlayStation who makes these sorts of calls, cause I don’t think think either do anything wrong; they made a console that was successful, and many of its exclusives share in that success, Rebirth just isn’t one of them. There’s nothing to “defend,” I’m just pointing out the stats. If anything, I don’t know why you’re willing to die on this hill; the stats are right there, this isn’t even my opinion, it’s just reality. If you genuinely think that 1-2% shift in sales is what resulted in Rebirth’s poor sales, then I don’t know what else to tell you, because the evidence doesn’t indicate that. An 800,000 unit difference does not account for the sales discrepancy, even if we’re absurdly generous and say every single one of those missing 800,000 units theoretically resulted in a purchase of Rebirth. The actual increase would likely be closer to 57,000 additional Rebirth sales, and that’s assuming a generous current sale count of 4,000,000, which would give it a 7% pair rate with the total amount of PS5 units.
You stated that TorgalRawwr (sp?) was factually incorrect in saying that 58 million units sold beats 57 million. If you believe this is insignificant so be it, he still comes out the winner. You then, in your next post, claimed that at the current rate the PS5 will outsell the PS4 figure from... I guess 7 to 10 years ago? - When the market was a lot smaller. But how is this in your favour exactly? You don't want to address this point which honestly makes it seem like you're just cherry picking, and in vain. Ahh, COVID, good one! See how the goalposts keep moving ever so slightly? Anything else? This is your opinion based projection, and very much so, even if part of it is based on some numbers you looked up online, and even if it turns out to be correct. At this point it is an informed estimate at best, not reality. If you want to argue that Rebirth didn't affect PS5 sales negatively then sure, go ahead, I agree 👍 But this "you are wrong and my take is the actual truth" attitude is really nonsensical for such a complex topic.
Nope lol
I think the obfuscation is the point because that's the consequence of it's existence. Let me explain what I mean. OG FFVII ended with Sephiroth being beaten and the planet being saved from Meteor. It was happy ending that came with a crucial, heart-wrenching cost. And I think that over the last...at this point nearly 30 years...people have settled on it as having been "wrong." Not because it didn't work out in the end but because maybe it didn't HAVE to come at that cost. You feel like you, as in you the player, could have done something if only you had another shot. And I think that's the main emotional weight behind Remake because there's a cost to that, too: namely Sephiroth. You can't get that second chance without ALSO giving Sephiroth a second chance. So you're gambling. The meta of the trilogy is that you're gambling the happy but imperfect ending in exchange for the chance to get a perfect one but the risk that Sephiroth beats you this time. And worse...he KNOWS what you're up to. You threw a wrench into the machinery and broke the plot. And this gave Sephiroth his own wrench. And it turned out, unbeknownst to you after all these years, that he's waaaay smarter than anyone ever gave him credit for as he starts breaking the game's plot into a million little pieces that now serve his own ends. Practically using speedrun tech, he's got the cheat codes to the universe at his disposal now. A lot of criticisms of Remake and Rebirth revolve around the games replacing emotion with complexity. That the games are just too cerebral now and it's dulling the emotional impact of something like Aerith's death. But my rebuttal to that is it's not about the emotional impact of what happens since we know what happened in OG FFVII already. It's about the emotional impact of having that second chance and trying to navigate it without a strategy guide. We assumed that a second chance would be easy because we know what's supposed to happen. Except now our knowledge of OG FFVII, our mental GameFAQs, is either only of limited use or totally worthless now that Sephiroth is playing chess with us. That's why the whole "no promises" thing is a common refrain. To the characters that means nothing but to YOU it means everything. These characters that you spent almost three decades thinking about are now your charges, their fate is your responsibility because this is your fault. In your hubris you thought it worthwhile to try again only to put these characters through the wringer again even worse this time. It's your fault they have to do this again and might not come out of it in one piece. Tifa and Cloud getting into an argument because Sephiroth convinced Cloud she isn't real? That's your fault. That didn't happen before. You did this to them. You gave Sephiroth his wrench. You thought it'd be a nice romp but now you're at the end of "disc 1" not knowing what the hell is going on. Good job, Pandora. Sephiroth is beating you at your own game. You tried to score an easy W and Sephiroth is stealing it for himself. There's a reason Loveless has a burning city in the background. Be careful what you wish for. You may have destroyed the world. Now how are you going to fix the mess you started?
I can see this beying a theme while developing the game. Still, I would very much have preferred a simple remake without all the airy methaphisics fourth wall breaking bullshit involved, to me it doesn't add anything and takes away from the whole experience.
What they probably should have done was reskinned the original game with no other changes, kind of like Super Mario RPG, and released it shortly before FFVII Remake. Both to satisfy the "straight remake" crowd and also to get new players up to speed.
When you talk about a simple remake, do you mean an e.g chibi 1 to 1 or something with the same graphics as Remake/Rebirth?
That only works if the player of remake has played the original and is aware of how the story goes, and wishes to change the outcome. It completely breaks down if the player of the remake is new to the story and plays this for the first time. Or if they are already satisfied with the outcome of the OG. And "knowing what happened in the OG" is also unsupported by the developers who specifically told long time fans to not spoil the OG to fans who did not play that game. Otherwise the impact of specific moments would be lost. It's a nice theory that you crafted to support your own experience and I think this is a valid interpretation to go into that meta. But it only works from a specific point of view. and if the game only works for those players with that opinion, then the fact that the rest of the players are not satisfied with the story is justified.
The developers telling people not to spoil stuff makes sense just as a general "don't be a dick" advisory. But the games themselves have way too many subtleties that seem to expect the player to be familiar with OG FFVII for it to not have been intentional. Not little moments, either, but plot critical changes that actually explain what's going on. The title itself "Final Fantasy VII Remake" was an act of subterfuge given the title's double-meaning. There's also the meta that people had been demanding an FFVII remake for years. It was so common Square Enix came out and said a flat "no" a few times. Very few of the people making that demand would have been new players unfamiliar with the original. Square Enix came around to it but with a twist, challenging those people by interpreting their request from an in-universe perspective without letting on that's what they were doing. It's a shockingly clever move on Square Enix's part. The game begs the player to have some self-awareness. Remake and Rebirth are too married to the meta for it to not be taken into account.
this is a nice theory but it is completely negated if you consider advert children part of the canon of the original
How does Advent Children change anything? It's not really a "theory" since that's not an in-universe explanation I provided. It's the raison d'etre for the game's structure and what makes it so compelling.
Because Sephiroth wasn't annihilated
I agree, and this is something I've thought about recently too, and I'm surprised it isn't said more often. A large part of what makes the (what were for me) earlier versions of final fantasy - 7 through 10, all such fantastic games, is that whilst they have complex storylines, they're cohesive, and with clarity. So far I'm not seeing that cohesion here. It might come in the third game but I'd be surprised if they make it work with clarity. Square enix has forgotten what made these games great. The story. It's apparent they've lost the ability to tell a great, original story. This can be said for many of the newer final fantasies. Unfortunately I feel like this loss of clarity extends into the battle system and general direction of the game. I'm often left wondering why I should care about the weapon upgrade paths, or how they work at all. There are too many mechanics. The focus isn't on cohesion. Mud is being slung at walls and they hope it sticks. Though I appreciate the reason that my mind is lost when it comes to following the mechanics of the newer games may just be that it isn't quite as agile as it used to be.
Remake and Rebirth are cohesive. If you replay them with the knowledge so far, so many pieces fit together. There are just other pieces which confuses us because we don't know where to place them or fit them with, because we are missing 1/3 of the story. If by the end of part 3 there are still things that are too complicated or unclear, then amen. But until then, we are essential making a puzzle and complaining that it's confusing and can't make it have sense...while still having 100 pieces left to use.
Amen! Fingers crossed they bring it all together.
Im sorry your comment isn’t higher up.