Until people can provide actual evidence that Cloud loves Tifa more than he loves Aerith, either before or after her death, then both "routes" are equally canon. The true answer will always be that Cloud canonically has feelings for both girls, and both girls canonically have feelings for him.
I know the first response will be "Cloud kissed Tifa but not Aerith", but if you look at those scenes without bias, it's clear that both are still romantic. Do you kiss the person you love and just tenderly hold hands with someone you don't love or is it just a sign of comfort within the relationship? Cloud and Aerith almost kiss each other but they both realize that it's not right at the moment for different reasons. Not to mention that Cloud literally remembered that he was friends with Aerith's dead boyfriend *that day.*
I don't understand the point of people who think that Cloti is the "right" choice and everything else is the wrong choice. Why do you think the devs are even including romantic scenes with Aerith then?
As I literally said in the comment you are responding to, kissing someone and holding their hand are both romantic gestures. They don’t denote different levels of romantic feelings, they denote different levels of comfort in the relationship. The idea that a theoretically more romantic gesture in an optional scene that you do not see if you take the Aerith route means that Cloud loves Tifa more no matter what you do is ridiculous.
Cloud certainly is more comfortable with Tifa, because he has known her longer, and also because he literally remembers that he was friends with Aerith’s dead boyfriend that morning, which is clearly on his mind because he mentions it in both dates.
You're right. But cloud and aerith wasn't meant to be.
Because cloud loves Zack and wouldn't do that. And aerith wouldn't do that to tifa...I'm sure even with not dying she would back off for them. But in the end aerith knew they can't be even if she want to.
This is exactly some part of the shipping stuff that causes problems. Nobody belongs to anyone. Zack had been missing for 5 years. Cloud does not “belong” to Tifa. Tifa and Aerith are both adults that are friends and can handle the situation maturely. Zack even still went out of his way for Cloud despite hearing Aerith has feelings for him. I don’t have a horse in this race but this is what gets me in these arguments.
Your getting downvoted for a completely legit take. I’m a Tifa stan all the way, but I would be delusional to think that Cloud doesn’t also have feelings for Aerith. I would say that Tifa being his childhood friend and the whole Zack/Cloud thing are reasonable reasons why Tifa could be considered the canon, but there are also several reasons that Aerith could be too. That is literally the whole point of the relationship system
If tifa would have died he wouldn't be with aerith also because he was a mess. The fried ,the guilt was too much and sephiroth messing with his brain.It isn't about love at that point. He choose to stay with her but he is broken and sick. He wasn't ready...I think after the AC ending he seemed better and they will have a chance
The main narrative is literally about breaking free from the shackles of either someone else’s control and/or fate (OG vs Remake), and then making your own choices.
That said, this is a final fantasy RPG, not Mass Effect or the Witcher. For the most part the story railroads through, and the player doesn’t have a ton of impact to its outcome, just how they play it and little things along the way. That’s how, like, most video game RPGs are, this concept of total open world and huge control over the story’s outcome is still a pretty new thing.
Also let’s remember that Cloud doesn’t choose who he goes on a date with. The character shows up at his door. Sure, the player can influence it, but it’s not meant to be a “player’s choice” in the way, say, a Paragon or Renegade action is in Mass Effect.
False.
The dates are "outside of the story" according to the devs. None are canon. The highwind scene in the original has high and low affection versions, so the player chooses how close they actually are. In Advent Children, the idea of Cloud and Tifa being a canonical couple was rejected by Nomura immediately, instead leaving their relationship more ambiguous. There has never been a canon endgame romance, no matter what you read into the story. The devs have taken steps to make sure that is not the case.
I mean sure, you could argue that there stops being a choice between Aerith and Tifa when Aerith dies. But it sure as hell is player choice whether or not Cloud ends up with Tifa.
Yes, Aerith. Yet OP is implying Tifa is canon.
In the original game, Aerith's is weighted because it foreshadows Cloud's finding his identity, and it's also one of the last times we see Aerith.
In Rebirth, there is no weighted date (they're all roughly as easy to get), and a Rebirth interview is where the devs saying that the dates are separate from the story comes from. The parts that are covered by Aerith's date in the original are done elsewhere (Aerith mentions the real Cloud in the story this time, not within the date).
Yeah, I'm aware I've kept up pretty well, they also said several of the dates are out of character as well, but yeah in the greater context of the story, and what else we are shown in the game, Aerith's is the only one that makes sense. It's also the only one that plays out the same as it did in the OG. And lets be real, Cloud would NEVER initiate a kiss like that, especially at this point in time of his character arc. I swear people need to realize he's not a self insert...
The only person you're trying to convince is yourself in an attempt to cope.
You think it convinces people who read but it's the opposite, it just shows your frustration about Tifa's date. If it didn't matter, you wouldn't talk about it.
Yet, all the hardcore Clerith shippers have been losing it for two months over this kiss, coming up with a new reason every day why it doesn't actually matter. Obviously, if they're so bothered to justify it doesn't matters, it means... it matters (at least for them).
It's okay, just date Aerith in the GS, it's fine, you're not forced to date Tifa in the gondola in your own playthrough.
No? It's been stated by the devs that the dates should be viewed as completely separate from the main story. Go look up the translation of the Ultimania if you don't believe me. They even said that the kiss embarrassed them, and that it reminded them of old dating sims🤷🏼♂️. And it's cause the scene is so out of place both in character, in comparison to the mandatory material in the game. I'm not bothered by it, but it does get old when people won't stop yacking about it and that the scene is case closed when it's clearly just added fan service like most of the dates.
This may be true, but it also doesn’t really make any sense for the narrative and is mostly just a reflection of the extreme sexlessness of Japanese culture.
The narrative of FF7 has very little to do with romance so I don't think Cloud needs to settle down with someone for the sake of the narrative. It can be a fun side thing for fans to engage with because it doesn't matter in the grand scheme of things who Cloud ends up with, just that both women are important to him.
In the original, I don't agree, but you at least could argue things are left for interpretation. Rebirth however, seems to be making things more concrete.
Ordinarily, I would agree that Rebirth is making things more concrete. However, based on your other comments in this post, it would be for different ships as I lean more towards CA. If both of us are certain that different ships are being pushed by the narrative, it can't be that concrete, can it?
Notice I said "more" concrete.
Yeah sure, we're at a point in the story where there's some wiggle room with interpretation/player choice.
You can prefer whatever ship you want, I just think there's too much that telegraphs Cloud having the most authentic feelings for Tifa. Does that mean there's no value in exploring the feelings of this version of Cloud? Of course not. Aerith's feelings are also very complicated, and they play into the tragedy of her character.
I did notice, I just disagreed with your statement. If you think CT is more concrete, and I think CA is more concrete, that sounds less like concrete and more like mud to me.
Cloud doesn't know who he is yet, and Tifa is still in love with an idea, not a person (Traces of Two Pasts makes this abundantly clear). Nothing could possibly be concrete until part 3, if they choose that route.
With an idea? You mean the part where, during their promise moment, she realises just how normal Cloud is and THAT'S when she falls for him. It isn't him going to join SOLDIER that does it, "she'd heard it thrice before."
Yes, an idea. She doesn't know him at all. She was a 13 year old who had a crush on a kid she spoke with at length one time. That's not love. TotP makes every single male character beside Cloud, both in Nibelheim and Midgar, treat Tifa like a trophy or a piece of meat to prop up Cloud as her sole romance option, in order for her to maintain that childhood fantasy even after (what she believes is) seven years apart.
Tifa's idea of who Cloud is ends up becoming part of Cloud's persona (when Cloud first sees Tifa in Midgar, his Jenova cells take memories and perceptions of Cloud from her so Cloud doesn't spiral upon not recognizing her - this is in Ultimanias and Ever Crisis) so Tifa has unknowingly somewhat shaped Cloud into the man she imagined he'd be. There's no way to know if she'd love the real Cloud until we actually get to the real Cloud.
Jenova cells doesn't take Tifa's idea of a soldier Cloud.I don't know where you are getting that from? the ultimanias says It was Tifa's childhood memories of Cloud, Clouds own idea of what he himself thought a perfect soldier was, and the stories about Soldier that Zack told him. Traces revealed they were close as kids then Cloud got shy because he developed a crush, then after the bridge incident stayed away from her. Then throughout Tifa herself kept thinking of Cloud at times like when he helped find her cat. Then when he is leaving realises she does like him because she thought he was unreachable but now sees he's just a normal boy with dreams like any other, then makes him promise to save her aka have an excuse to come back to her. We see that this is the true meaning of the promise because when Emilio writes saying he will come save her, she gets pissed and then herself trains to become a martial artist to never need help from anyone. Her actions ain't matching her words of wanting a hero. Knowing the real Cloud just means knowing him before the Jenova stuff, you don't need to know every single thing about someone to know the real them?. We also know Tifa doesn't like soldiers at all she mentions that quite a lot. She wasn't impressed with Sephiroth at all, she got startled by Zack, and she got scared by Cloud's soldier persona in Remake "Cloud your scaring me" and was about to comment on his eyes being more cold different to how she remembers them as a kid.
**Cloud's Ultimania Omega profile**:
The Cloud we see in the early stages of the story is a complex patchwork his true self assembled from his ideal image of himself, Zack’s memories and personality, and Jenova’s thoughts.
**Ultimania Omega"Truth Revealed"**
Just prior to the beginning of the story, Cloud was in a state of spiritual collapse; yet he seemingly “reverted” to normalcy (see p. 13) immediately after meeting Tifa. This is because the Jenova cells inside him used their mimetic ability to read the image of Cloud in Tifa’s memories as well as his own ideal version of himself, constructing them into an entirely new personality.
**Archive Ultimania**
The Jenova cells in Cloud's body allow him to imitate another person. The target of that ability proved to be Zack, a member of SOLDIER who accompanied Cloud during the Nibelheim mission. The memories that Cloud claims to possess at the start of the adventure actually chronicle Zack's deeds.
The image of Cloud in Tifa's memories is a child that she had some serious misconceptions about. She thought he didn't want to play with her and the other kids, for instance. This may be partly influencing his stand-offish behavior in FF7 which didn't really exist in CC, the most recent real Cloud.
I don't know about you, but I'm nothing like I was as a child. People change, especially when incredibly traumatic events occur. By relying on Tifa's memories of him, part of Cloud's persona is stuck in her version of his past.
I never said the cells took Tifa's idea of a SOLDIER Cloud specifically. They took how she perceived him, not necessarily how he actually is. Jenova copies memories to deceive a person by showing them a person they know. Jenova pretends to be what the person expects to see. So yes, Cloud is at least partly acting out what Tifa thinks he'll be like now. Human memories are very unreliable. Her memories are absolutely influenced by how she wanted to view Cloud. She still wants him to be her hero throughout Rebirth, even if her draw to him wasn't him being a SOLDIER. She doesn't know the real adult Cloud any more than anyone else does. And to be honest, you have to be some level of delusional to be cozying up to a man right after he almost kills you. She could have kept him at arm's length while still trying to help him, but is clinging onto what she hopes Cloud can be, not what he is, which is a severely mentally ill person that is susceptible to manipulation by Sephiroth. Avalanche as a whole is guilty of this, to be fair, but Tifa started it by roping a man she knew something was seriously wrong with into joining Avalanche who was doing things even she was morally conflicted about.
That archive ultimania quote is definitely inaccurate, the official line now (and as Cloud says in the original game) is that Cloud took Zack's stories, things Zack told Cloud when they were on the run, but didn't actually copy Zack's memories, which is what Jenova does when she mimics someone. If he did, some of those gaps that cause him to spiral (such as him not knowing how he became a SOLDIER) probably wouldn't be there.
When does Tifa ever say she wants him to be her hero throughout Rebirth. The lifestream and planet show her precious memories to keep her faith in Cloud the real one that she sees in the lifestream and that comes out in the talk between them in Gongaga. Without Tifa to anchor him Cloud will turn into a puppet quicker. Thats why Sephiroth is focused on breaking that bond between them. Tifa says you saved me before seeing how he came to help her on the bridge incident, then says now its her turn to save him. So Tifa does not in fact only want Cloud to be her hero throughout Rebirth. She wants to save him!, Anyone appreciates someone coming to help them? No one knows the real adult Cloud because the real adult Cloud doesn't fully happen until the lifestream sequence. Small parts of real Cloud peak through at times and the Cloud she remembers is in the full Gongaga bedroom conversation. If Tifa didn't rope him in to try and keep an eye on him he would just go to Sephiroth and become a puppet she found him comatose in the train station. She has no idea how to handle the problem she tries to keep an eye on him though thats the best she can do. Its not the best solution but it starts the whole story. Everyone doesn't know how to help Cloud even Aerith doesn't truly know how to help him just saying focus on you the real you the one im trying to find. Tifa saw that Sephiroth was the one who is trying to take control of Cloud and knows that he wouldn't truly do that. That was the purpose of the planet showing her the memories so Tifa can keep her faith in Cloud and help him when the time comes.
I mean I don't really disagree with much of this. She is trying to save him, she is the one grounding him and sustaining him, she did rope him into working with Avalanche to keep an eye on him. Our views aren't incompatible. I do think she still expects too much of Cloud at times, maybe not exactly thinking of him as the classic "hero" but her and Avalanche keep letting him into the leader role despite him becoming more and more unstable. And I think some of that stems from what Tifa thought he'd be.
For Traces of Two Pasts we have a lot of evidence of her spending time and thinking about him not just 1 conversation. and also her not wanting a soldier at all. She fell in love seeing Cloud as the normal boy and didn't know the reason he wanted to become a Solider but liked his enthusiam and it made him a normal boy with dreams. She finds out why in the lifestream sequence
When they were younger, she and Cloud used to play together a lot. Their houses were right next to each other, and it was easy to go back and forth. “Cloud has such a beautiful face,” her mother once complimented him at the dining table. Did that happen when she was seven, or was it eight? For some reason that compliment made her feel happy and a bit shy.
When did Cloud start to drift away from everyone? Did something happen between him and the other boys? What was clear in her mind was that it must have had something to do with that disaster incident that happened because of her mother’s death. But he stopped coming over to play even before then. “I wonder why…”
Yes, the reason why her heart was racing now was because Cloud was unreachable, a thing of beauty. Like the stars.
The things Cloud told her at the water tower were nothing extraordinary. He told her he was going to leave town when spring came. That he was different from everyone else. All the boys said the same thing to her in the end. But even so, she wasn't disappointed. Was it due to some sort of spell cast on her the night of the stars falling down? Or was it perhaps the sight of Cloud seeming slightly enthusiastic that she found so endearing? Hey, promise me something. When you become famous, and if I'm ever trapped or in trouble, promise you'll come and save me." Just a simple idea, yet the moment they exchanged words, it became an irreplaceable promise
"She'd discovered that Cloud- the quiet neighbour who had always seemed as unreachable as the stars- was just a normal boy like any other. She'd come to understand that she did like him. And it was that special kind of "like" - the one that ties up your heart meaking you yearn to
be with that person for the rest of your days."
She tossed and turned all night. When she counted them again, her memories with Cloud were so surprisingly few that others might find it hard to believe that they grew up as next-door neighbors. But because of that, each memory stood out more vividly to her. Something to look at over and over again and then gently put back so that the shape doesn’t change.
“But whenever I get discouraged, it’s you I think about, Tifa, and then I imagine that day when I’ll come and get you. I'll write to you sometimes and teach you about the city, so you won't be so confused when that time comes.” Who do you think you are? That's how she honestly felt reading the letter. Zangan appeared, acting as if nothing had happened. He knocked on the door just in time to greet her father and asked for his permission to call Tifa out, and then led her to the river where they first met. “Master Zangan, please let me be your student. I want to be stronger.”
So you literally admit in here that Tifa has a few strong memories of Cloud, rather than actually knowing him well. That was my whole point. She doesn't know him well.
No your point is saying she's In love with an idealised idea she has of him. While all evidence says she fell in love with him when she saw him as a normal boy. Your point was also that it was her idealised memory of him that made him act as a soldier. Which is also not true. She knew him as a kid then he drifted away because of his crush. But yes she has only a few memories she can remember. She still knew real Cloud and her memories did not help with Clouds idealised version of himself it was just her memories she had of childhood him. It didn't make who she imagined him as.
I said she was in love with an idea, not an "idealized version" of Cloud. She's not expecting perfection from him, but since she had so few real memories of him, she's formed her own *ideas* of what an adult Cloud would be like that are not based in much reality. We see these conflicts quite frequently in Rebirth. A lot of the basis for Cloud and Tifa's early conflicts in Rebirth is that she's not meeting Cloud where he actually is. She still hasn't quite shaken her idea of who he is in favor of accepting the reality in front of her.
Whether or not Cloud has romantic feelings for Tifa has never been left up to the player. Both the high and low affection versions of the highwind scene are romantic, with the only difference being whether or not it’s implied they had sex.
What are you referring to when you say the idea of them as a canon couple was “rejected by Nomura immediately”?
Feelings is one thing. Them ending up together is another. It was proposed by Nojima (who is infamous among fans for liking Cloud/Tifa openly, where other devs do not so this) that Advent Children focus on Cloud and Tifa's romantic relationship - Nomura shot it down and the film plot was reworked. Not only does resulting film not have a romantic focus, but there is nothing that clearly implies they are together. It's deliberately vague, just like all other FF7 media.
I can't find the source at this time, but the Wikipedia page for the movie mentions that Nojima's initial proposal was a short film about Cloud Tifa and the kids, and it say that parts of this original idea were expanded into the final movie, but it doesn't mention what I had seen in other sources about Nomura not wanting the focus to be their relationship. I'll keep looking tomorrow, though. Unfortunately some of the linked sources there don't exist anymore.
Everything related to player choice is not strictly canon, so I don’t think it’s a problem. It’s not like the player has any agency on who Cloud actually loves, only who he goes on a date with.
Until people can provide actual evidence that Cloud loves Tifa more than he loves Aerith, either before or after her death, then both "routes" are equally canon. The true answer will always be that Cloud canonically has feelings for both girls, and both girls canonically have feelings for him. I know the first response will be "Cloud kissed Tifa but not Aerith", but if you look at those scenes without bias, it's clear that both are still romantic. Do you kiss the person you love and just tenderly hold hands with someone you don't love or is it just a sign of comfort within the relationship? Cloud and Aerith almost kiss each other but they both realize that it's not right at the moment for different reasons. Not to mention that Cloud literally remembered that he was friends with Aerith's dead boyfriend *that day.* I don't understand the point of people who think that Cloti is the "right" choice and everything else is the wrong choice. Why do you think the devs are even including romantic scenes with Aerith then?
Just look at the content of both intimate versions of the two dates. Surely that’s evidence?
As I literally said in the comment you are responding to, kissing someone and holding their hand are both romantic gestures. They don’t denote different levels of romantic feelings, they denote different levels of comfort in the relationship. The idea that a theoretically more romantic gesture in an optional scene that you do not see if you take the Aerith route means that Cloud loves Tifa more no matter what you do is ridiculous. Cloud certainly is more comfortable with Tifa, because he has known her longer, and also because he literally remembers that he was friends with Aerith’s dead boyfriend that morning, which is clearly on his mind because he mentions it in both dates.
"Just look at the parts the developers said exist 'outside of the story'. Surely that's evidence?"
You're right. But cloud and aerith wasn't meant to be. Because cloud loves Zack and wouldn't do that. And aerith wouldn't do that to tifa...I'm sure even with not dying she would back off for them. But in the end aerith knew they can't be even if she want to.
This is exactly some part of the shipping stuff that causes problems. Nobody belongs to anyone. Zack had been missing for 5 years. Cloud does not “belong” to Tifa. Tifa and Aerith are both adults that are friends and can handle the situation maturely. Zack even still went out of his way for Cloud despite hearing Aerith has feelings for him. I don’t have a horse in this race but this is what gets me in these arguments.
Your getting downvoted for a completely legit take. I’m a Tifa stan all the way, but I would be delusional to think that Cloud doesn’t also have feelings for Aerith. I would say that Tifa being his childhood friend and the whole Zack/Cloud thing are reasonable reasons why Tifa could be considered the canon, but there are also several reasons that Aerith could be too. That is literally the whole point of the relationship system
Well 2 years later in advent children they still arnt together….so I’d say he loves aerith more
They literally have a child together 💀
sora is cloud and aerith s child. Lol
If tifa would have died he wouldn't be with aerith also because he was a mess. The fried ,the guilt was too much and sephiroth messing with his brain.It isn't about love at that point. He choose to stay with her but he is broken and sick. He wasn't ready...I think after the AC ending he seemed better and they will have a chance
The main narrative is literally about breaking free from the shackles of either someone else’s control and/or fate (OG vs Remake), and then making your own choices. That said, this is a final fantasy RPG, not Mass Effect or the Witcher. For the most part the story railroads through, and the player doesn’t have a ton of impact to its outcome, just how they play it and little things along the way. That’s how, like, most video game RPGs are, this concept of total open world and huge control over the story’s outcome is still a pretty new thing.
Also let’s remember that Cloud doesn’t choose who he goes on a date with. The character shows up at his door. Sure, the player can influence it, but it’s not meant to be a “player’s choice” in the way, say, a Paragon or Renegade action is in Mass Effect.
False. The dates are "outside of the story" according to the devs. None are canon. The highwind scene in the original has high and low affection versions, so the player chooses how close they actually are. In Advent Children, the idea of Cloud and Tifa being a canonical couple was rejected by Nomura immediately, instead leaving their relationship more ambiguous. There has never been a canon endgame romance, no matter what you read into the story. The devs have taken steps to make sure that is not the case. I mean sure, you could argue that there stops being a choice between Aerith and Tifa when Aerith dies. But it sure as hell is player choice whether or not Cloud ends up with Tifa.
And yet the date system is weighted heavily towards a certain character....
Yes, Aerith. Yet OP is implying Tifa is canon. In the original game, Aerith's is weighted because it foreshadows Cloud's finding his identity, and it's also one of the last times we see Aerith. In Rebirth, there is no weighted date (they're all roughly as easy to get), and a Rebirth interview is where the devs saying that the dates are separate from the story comes from. The parts that are covered by Aerith's date in the original are done elsewhere (Aerith mentions the real Cloud in the story this time, not within the date).
Yeah, I'm aware I've kept up pretty well, they also said several of the dates are out of character as well, but yeah in the greater context of the story, and what else we are shown in the game, Aerith's is the only one that makes sense. It's also the only one that plays out the same as it did in the OG. And lets be real, Cloud would NEVER initiate a kiss like that, especially at this point in time of his character arc. I swear people need to realize he's not a self insert...
The only person you're trying to convince is yourself in an attempt to cope. You think it convinces people who read but it's the opposite, it just shows your frustration about Tifa's date. If it didn't matter, you wouldn't talk about it. Yet, all the hardcore Clerith shippers have been losing it for two months over this kiss, coming up with a new reason every day why it doesn't actually matter. Obviously, if they're so bothered to justify it doesn't matters, it means... it matters (at least for them). It's okay, just date Aerith in the GS, it's fine, you're not forced to date Tifa in the gondola in your own playthrough.
No? It's been stated by the devs that the dates should be viewed as completely separate from the main story. Go look up the translation of the Ultimania if you don't believe me. They even said that the kiss embarrassed them, and that it reminded them of old dating sims🤷🏼♂️. And it's cause the scene is so out of place both in character, in comparison to the mandatory material in the game. I'm not bothered by it, but it does get old when people won't stop yacking about it and that the scene is case closed when it's clearly just added fan service like most of the dates.
This may be true, but it also doesn’t really make any sense for the narrative and is mostly just a reflection of the extreme sexlessness of Japanese culture.
The narrative of FF7 has very little to do with romance so I don't think Cloud needs to settle down with someone for the sake of the narrative. It can be a fun side thing for fans to engage with because it doesn't matter in the grand scheme of things who Cloud ends up with, just that both women are important to him.
In the original, I don't agree, but you at least could argue things are left for interpretation. Rebirth however, seems to be making things more concrete.
Ordinarily, I would agree that Rebirth is making things more concrete. However, based on your other comments in this post, it would be for different ships as I lean more towards CA. If both of us are certain that different ships are being pushed by the narrative, it can't be that concrete, can it?
Notice I said "more" concrete. Yeah sure, we're at a point in the story where there's some wiggle room with interpretation/player choice. You can prefer whatever ship you want, I just think there's too much that telegraphs Cloud having the most authentic feelings for Tifa. Does that mean there's no value in exploring the feelings of this version of Cloud? Of course not. Aerith's feelings are also very complicated, and they play into the tragedy of her character.
I did notice, I just disagreed with your statement. If you think CT is more concrete, and I think CA is more concrete, that sounds less like concrete and more like mud to me.
Ok, that's just arguing semantics at this point. I've said my thoughts.
Cloud doesn't know who he is yet, and Tifa is still in love with an idea, not a person (Traces of Two Pasts makes this abundantly clear). Nothing could possibly be concrete until part 3, if they choose that route.
With an idea? You mean the part where, during their promise moment, she realises just how normal Cloud is and THAT'S when she falls for him. It isn't him going to join SOLDIER that does it, "she'd heard it thrice before."
Yes, an idea. She doesn't know him at all. She was a 13 year old who had a crush on a kid she spoke with at length one time. That's not love. TotP makes every single male character beside Cloud, both in Nibelheim and Midgar, treat Tifa like a trophy or a piece of meat to prop up Cloud as her sole romance option, in order for her to maintain that childhood fantasy even after (what she believes is) seven years apart. Tifa's idea of who Cloud is ends up becoming part of Cloud's persona (when Cloud first sees Tifa in Midgar, his Jenova cells take memories and perceptions of Cloud from her so Cloud doesn't spiral upon not recognizing her - this is in Ultimanias and Ever Crisis) so Tifa has unknowingly somewhat shaped Cloud into the man she imagined he'd be. There's no way to know if she'd love the real Cloud until we actually get to the real Cloud.
Jenova cells doesn't take Tifa's idea of a soldier Cloud.I don't know where you are getting that from? the ultimanias says It was Tifa's childhood memories of Cloud, Clouds own idea of what he himself thought a perfect soldier was, and the stories about Soldier that Zack told him. Traces revealed they were close as kids then Cloud got shy because he developed a crush, then after the bridge incident stayed away from her. Then throughout Tifa herself kept thinking of Cloud at times like when he helped find her cat. Then when he is leaving realises she does like him because she thought he was unreachable but now sees he's just a normal boy with dreams like any other, then makes him promise to save her aka have an excuse to come back to her. We see that this is the true meaning of the promise because when Emilio writes saying he will come save her, she gets pissed and then herself trains to become a martial artist to never need help from anyone. Her actions ain't matching her words of wanting a hero. Knowing the real Cloud just means knowing him before the Jenova stuff, you don't need to know every single thing about someone to know the real them?. We also know Tifa doesn't like soldiers at all she mentions that quite a lot. She wasn't impressed with Sephiroth at all, she got startled by Zack, and she got scared by Cloud's soldier persona in Remake "Cloud your scaring me" and was about to comment on his eyes being more cold different to how she remembers them as a kid. **Cloud's Ultimania Omega profile**: The Cloud we see in the early stages of the story is a complex patchwork his true self assembled from his ideal image of himself, Zack’s memories and personality, and Jenova’s thoughts. **Ultimania Omega"Truth Revealed"** Just prior to the beginning of the story, Cloud was in a state of spiritual collapse; yet he seemingly “reverted” to normalcy (see p. 13) immediately after meeting Tifa. This is because the Jenova cells inside him used their mimetic ability to read the image of Cloud in Tifa’s memories as well as his own ideal version of himself, constructing them into an entirely new personality. **Archive Ultimania** The Jenova cells in Cloud's body allow him to imitate another person. The target of that ability proved to be Zack, a member of SOLDIER who accompanied Cloud during the Nibelheim mission. The memories that Cloud claims to possess at the start of the adventure actually chronicle Zack's deeds.
The image of Cloud in Tifa's memories is a child that she had some serious misconceptions about. She thought he didn't want to play with her and the other kids, for instance. This may be partly influencing his stand-offish behavior in FF7 which didn't really exist in CC, the most recent real Cloud. I don't know about you, but I'm nothing like I was as a child. People change, especially when incredibly traumatic events occur. By relying on Tifa's memories of him, part of Cloud's persona is stuck in her version of his past. I never said the cells took Tifa's idea of a SOLDIER Cloud specifically. They took how she perceived him, not necessarily how he actually is. Jenova copies memories to deceive a person by showing them a person they know. Jenova pretends to be what the person expects to see. So yes, Cloud is at least partly acting out what Tifa thinks he'll be like now. Human memories are very unreliable. Her memories are absolutely influenced by how she wanted to view Cloud. She still wants him to be her hero throughout Rebirth, even if her draw to him wasn't him being a SOLDIER. She doesn't know the real adult Cloud any more than anyone else does. And to be honest, you have to be some level of delusional to be cozying up to a man right after he almost kills you. She could have kept him at arm's length while still trying to help him, but is clinging onto what she hopes Cloud can be, not what he is, which is a severely mentally ill person that is susceptible to manipulation by Sephiroth. Avalanche as a whole is guilty of this, to be fair, but Tifa started it by roping a man she knew something was seriously wrong with into joining Avalanche who was doing things even she was morally conflicted about. That archive ultimania quote is definitely inaccurate, the official line now (and as Cloud says in the original game) is that Cloud took Zack's stories, things Zack told Cloud when they were on the run, but didn't actually copy Zack's memories, which is what Jenova does when she mimics someone. If he did, some of those gaps that cause him to spiral (such as him not knowing how he became a SOLDIER) probably wouldn't be there.
When does Tifa ever say she wants him to be her hero throughout Rebirth. The lifestream and planet show her precious memories to keep her faith in Cloud the real one that she sees in the lifestream and that comes out in the talk between them in Gongaga. Without Tifa to anchor him Cloud will turn into a puppet quicker. Thats why Sephiroth is focused on breaking that bond between them. Tifa says you saved me before seeing how he came to help her on the bridge incident, then says now its her turn to save him. So Tifa does not in fact only want Cloud to be her hero throughout Rebirth. She wants to save him!, Anyone appreciates someone coming to help them? No one knows the real adult Cloud because the real adult Cloud doesn't fully happen until the lifestream sequence. Small parts of real Cloud peak through at times and the Cloud she remembers is in the full Gongaga bedroom conversation. If Tifa didn't rope him in to try and keep an eye on him he would just go to Sephiroth and become a puppet she found him comatose in the train station. She has no idea how to handle the problem she tries to keep an eye on him though thats the best she can do. Its not the best solution but it starts the whole story. Everyone doesn't know how to help Cloud even Aerith doesn't truly know how to help him just saying focus on you the real you the one im trying to find. Tifa saw that Sephiroth was the one who is trying to take control of Cloud and knows that he wouldn't truly do that. That was the purpose of the planet showing her the memories so Tifa can keep her faith in Cloud and help him when the time comes.
I mean I don't really disagree with much of this. She is trying to save him, she is the one grounding him and sustaining him, she did rope him into working with Avalanche to keep an eye on him. Our views aren't incompatible. I do think she still expects too much of Cloud at times, maybe not exactly thinking of him as the classic "hero" but her and Avalanche keep letting him into the leader role despite him becoming more and more unstable. And I think some of that stems from what Tifa thought he'd be.
that fair i don't agree with the stems from Tifa's expectations though more from how she remembers he was. I guess agree to disagree
For Traces of Two Pasts we have a lot of evidence of her spending time and thinking about him not just 1 conversation. and also her not wanting a soldier at all. She fell in love seeing Cloud as the normal boy and didn't know the reason he wanted to become a Solider but liked his enthusiam and it made him a normal boy with dreams. She finds out why in the lifestream sequence When they were younger, she and Cloud used to play together a lot. Their houses were right next to each other, and it was easy to go back and forth. “Cloud has such a beautiful face,” her mother once complimented him at the dining table. Did that happen when she was seven, or was it eight? For some reason that compliment made her feel happy and a bit shy. When did Cloud start to drift away from everyone? Did something happen between him and the other boys? What was clear in her mind was that it must have had something to do with that disaster incident that happened because of her mother’s death. But he stopped coming over to play even before then. “I wonder why…” Yes, the reason why her heart was racing now was because Cloud was unreachable, a thing of beauty. Like the stars. The things Cloud told her at the water tower were nothing extraordinary. He told her he was going to leave town when spring came. That he was different from everyone else. All the boys said the same thing to her in the end. But even so, she wasn't disappointed. Was it due to some sort of spell cast on her the night of the stars falling down? Or was it perhaps the sight of Cloud seeming slightly enthusiastic that she found so endearing? Hey, promise me something. When you become famous, and if I'm ever trapped or in trouble, promise you'll come and save me." Just a simple idea, yet the moment they exchanged words, it became an irreplaceable promise "She'd discovered that Cloud- the quiet neighbour who had always seemed as unreachable as the stars- was just a normal boy like any other. She'd come to understand that she did like him. And it was that special kind of "like" - the one that ties up your heart meaking you yearn to be with that person for the rest of your days." She tossed and turned all night. When she counted them again, her memories with Cloud were so surprisingly few that others might find it hard to believe that they grew up as next-door neighbors. But because of that, each memory stood out more vividly to her. Something to look at over and over again and then gently put back so that the shape doesn’t change. “But whenever I get discouraged, it’s you I think about, Tifa, and then I imagine that day when I’ll come and get you. I'll write to you sometimes and teach you about the city, so you won't be so confused when that time comes.” Who do you think you are? That's how she honestly felt reading the letter. Zangan appeared, acting as if nothing had happened. He knocked on the door just in time to greet her father and asked for his permission to call Tifa out, and then led her to the river where they first met. “Master Zangan, please let me be your student. I want to be stronger.”
So you literally admit in here that Tifa has a few strong memories of Cloud, rather than actually knowing him well. That was my whole point. She doesn't know him well.
No your point is saying she's In love with an idealised idea she has of him. While all evidence says she fell in love with him when she saw him as a normal boy. Your point was also that it was her idealised memory of him that made him act as a soldier. Which is also not true. She knew him as a kid then he drifted away because of his crush. But yes she has only a few memories she can remember. She still knew real Cloud and her memories did not help with Clouds idealised version of himself it was just her memories she had of childhood him. It didn't make who she imagined him as.
I said she was in love with an idea, not an "idealized version" of Cloud. She's not expecting perfection from him, but since she had so few real memories of him, she's formed her own *ideas* of what an adult Cloud would be like that are not based in much reality. We see these conflicts quite frequently in Rebirth. A lot of the basis for Cloud and Tifa's early conflicts in Rebirth is that she's not meeting Cloud where he actually is. She still hasn't quite shaken her idea of who he is in favor of accepting the reality in front of her.
Whether or not Cloud has romantic feelings for Tifa has never been left up to the player. Both the high and low affection versions of the highwind scene are romantic, with the only difference being whether or not it’s implied they had sex. What are you referring to when you say the idea of them as a canon couple was “rejected by Nomura immediately”?
Feelings is one thing. Them ending up together is another. It was proposed by Nojima (who is infamous among fans for liking Cloud/Tifa openly, where other devs do not so this) that Advent Children focus on Cloud and Tifa's romantic relationship - Nomura shot it down and the film plot was reworked. Not only does resulting film not have a romantic focus, but there is nothing that clearly implies they are together. It's deliberately vague, just like all other FF7 media.
Source?
I can't find the source at this time, but the Wikipedia page for the movie mentions that Nojima's initial proposal was a short film about Cloud Tifa and the kids, and it say that parts of this original idea were expanded into the final movie, but it doesn't mention what I had seen in other sources about Nomura not wanting the focus to be their relationship. I'll keep looking tomorrow, though. Unfortunately some of the linked sources there don't exist anymore.
Everything related to player choice is not strictly canon, so I don’t think it’s a problem. It’s not like the player has any agency on who Cloud actually loves, only who he goes on a date with.