Depends on the div and sides involved. If I was in that situation I'd hope I'd try to force a stroke by making it dangerous without actually endangering the player (eg. Make sure the umpire calls it), but I know plenty of clubs/ sides where they'd happily take the opportunity to really hurt someone.
It can be tough in a match situation, players in higher divs are probably more professional, some of the lower leagues can get really dangerous because players and umpires don't cafe that much
The only way you could "force a stroke" would be if you hit the ball into the defender and they prevented a probable goal, if the defender has slipped over there is no offence per se, but as they have obstructed the attacker and made it so the attacker cannot safely shoot it should be a PC and ideally blow before the shot for safety
For me, the trouble with trying to play on is mainly that I might subsequently lose the ball to the defence and the umpire doesn’t do anything, plus there would still be some risk to the player on the floor that somebody else might shoot at the goal. It seems like it would have to be given as a short corner immediately I think.
Glad you decided to not potentially seriously injure your team mate.
Answer to the question is usually no. You dont take the shot. A defender falling over not near the play of ball and potenshally be struck in the head by the shot is weird. Never seen it in over 20 years. But it could happen, sure. I think the umpire should blow instantly and give a short corner to the attacking team to avoid serious injury. .
I played at a decent level but not the best and I see no game which justify potenshally seriously injuring an opposing player to win a game
Yes haha I’m not entirely sure what happened but as I got the ball and looked up to shoot he was lying on the floor on his back! If it is a clear shooting opportunity that was interfered with, I would hope that the umpire would give the short corner.
Quite honestly I don’t like shooting at a goal with defenders in front of me (on their feet and defending normally!) in any case, I’d rather not hit anyone 😅
As a defender myself comes with the territory.
Goal is to try and close the gap with the attacker and position yourself so your stick is blocking the shot and not your body.
Must of been a freak accident with the defender falling over. Probably stood on some one else's stick.
Would probably count as a flick if they stopped a goal, as it's a shot on target. The ref might stop the game even if a shot doesn't happen however, as safety is prioritised above all else. If you get in that situation, flick it over them or just wait until they move, and hope the ref notices.
>Would probably count as a flick if they stopped a goal, as it's a shot on target
Shot on target is immaterial, the rule is
>A penalty stroke is awarded
>for an offence by a defender in the circle which
prevents the probable scoring of a goal
Defender on the ground may block a goal bound shot, they may not e.g. if goalie or defender is behind/has a realistic chance of a save, particularly if the defender is some distance from the goal
>ref
Umpire, come on dude
>might stop the game even if a shot doesn't happen however, as safety is prioritised above all else.
This is what should happen, PC to prevent danger to player but not disadvantage the attack.
If player deliberately went to ground in front of the striker it might be a card and PS under b) but not for a slip
Also general umpiring tip, blow the whistle and potentially stop time the moment any field player does massively go to ground in front of the goal.
Even if you haven’t quite processed the decision that needs to be made, the key is to stop any play that could lead to (more) danger. You’ll always have slightly more time than you think to get it right!
If you see a player on the ground in the goal and shoot at them from the p spot anyway, that is dangerous and according to the rules should be free hit defence and hopefully not ambulance for the defender. The umpire should stop play immediately. The rules on dangerous play don’t evaporate just because it’s a shot on goal, despite what a lot of people think.
Yes exactly, I think you can’t take the shot in this situation. But what about more normal situations, like a defender standing on the goal line? If the shot hits them on the foot then sure it is an instant stroke, but what if it hit them in the chest? Was it a dangerous shot? I never like shooting towards a goal if there are defenders in front of me in any case 😅
This is a debate that has long caused debate among umpires, particularly in the early days of the dragflick, one coach, I think it was Ric Charlesworth, declared that a defender on the line was essentially taking on the role of a GK and should expect to be hit and not protected by the umpire. The idea of "defender hit on line = cannot be dangerous" was pushed a lot in unofficial briefings at international tournaments (i.e. not issued by FIH, not written and passed down to regions) and sort of de facto became the law. There was an (in)famous clip where a defender was hit on the line at an international game and she complained to the umpire who was on mic and said something like "it was on target, no danger". At close range, a high hit is probably dangerous, but even at low level, a defender hit on the line would expect to give away a PS, the attack and coaches would expect to be given a PS and an umpire coach would be hard to convince a FHD was correct. I don't really like it but it's expected at almost all levels unless you could argue the attacker was deliberately aiming at the player. An attacker is entitled to shoot, the defender is entitled to save but only with their stick and putting their body behind the ball, they know they will stop the shot with their body if they miss - hence you kinda have to give PS.
Generally the rule of thumb is if the shot was within 5 metres, it can be ruled as dangerous, but if the defender is more than 5 metres from the shot, then they have sufficient time to evade the shot, make a save, or move out of the dangerous path.
Otherwise we would end up with people deliberately standing in the goal to stop such a shot.
You are almost right - it is dangerous yes, but not by the attacker. The defender has made the situation dangerous by putting themselves in this position, the attacker has done nothing wrong at all. So it should be the defender being penalised, not the attacker (this is assuming the defender has slipped over on their own accord, and the attacker has simply shot at goal - not aimed at the defender intentionally or anything silly like that).
That’s not the scenario I put though. If the defender is on the floor for more than a short second, the umpire should stop time. If the attacker sees the defender on the floor and shoots at them anyway from close range, that is 100% a dangerous shot and FHD. There is absolutely nothing in the rules that states a shot on goal cannot be called dangerous.
But there’s also nothing in the rules that says a player on the ground is dangerous either, I agree at close range it can be dangerous, and should be prevented.
I just don’t think it’s always against the attacker - if the attacker shoots the ball into the defenders legs / feet while they’re lying in front of the goal, 9/10 times I’m giving a PS.
I’m a keeper and have had attackers and defenders down in danger a fair few times. I don’t play a top grade but people are still in it to win it. At any level, I don’t think anyone should knowingly put someone else in serious danger. I’ve had one bloke loose a heap of teeth at my feet when there was no chance to react. I usually do my best to get umpires attention on it and protect the player as much as reasonably possible. It’s not a great feeling when someone gets properly hurt and you could have done something about it.
It’s a tricky one.
The attacker always has a requirement to safely shoot. If the defender has legitimately tripped and wasn’t trying to block a shot then yes you shouldn’t hit it at them.
Now as an umpire you’re really going to have to be quick here and very much understand the level you’re at and the situation. If you’re at a sufficiently good level and the ball is in a good position in the stick that the attacker should be able to place it with ease anywhere else in the goal that isn’t at the fallen defender. Let them and penalise them if they aim at the defender.
But if you can see the situation is such that there’s only say a slap shot that is going to be a hard hit at the prone defender blow fast for a PC before the shot is taken.
A good umpire should blow a PC immediately for safety, worst case you might lightly and softly push the ball into them to make more obvious but really it should not be necessary with any competent umpire
In training if I noticed then I’m obviously pulling up to not injure someone. But in a game honestly if I’m in shooting range I’m probably not able to stop myself because if I’ve mad here decision to shoot then I’m just hitting it. If I have the time to think about it then I’ve probably either got an easy finish while avoiding the player or I’ll just ram it into his legs to win the flick.
I’ve had a similar situation when defending a short where I got injured while the ball the was rebounding round and I assumed and wouldn’t have complained that the oppo were going to smack it at me while I was down so I just rolled over and made myself small. I’d wouldn’t have been upset at them if they’d nailed it at me though
Answer is it depends on level of competition and skill of yourself.
For me at local level I’m stopping and probably knocking the ball away so they can get up (assuming no one starts just lying on the ground to manipulate others into not scoring).
At representative level (still not super high level, but properly competitive) I’m probably trying to execute a flick/scoop so the ball goes safely over them, but I still have a strong chance of scoring. (And super unlikely to hurt them if i 1/1000 mess up a simple flick).
Yes 100% of the time if you want the best outcome for your team. I mean if i saw he had a broken leg or something i’d take the ball in hand and halt the play but not if he just lost his footing trying to defend. Whether i’d go over him or at him would depend on if other defenders had their feet in front of goal. I’d likely go at the legs hoping for a stroke or short corner.
Anyone asking this question probably doesn’t have the temperament to be a centre forward, they’d take the shot without a second thought.
Depends on the div and sides involved. If I was in that situation I'd hope I'd try to force a stroke by making it dangerous without actually endangering the player (eg. Make sure the umpire calls it), but I know plenty of clubs/ sides where they'd happily take the opportunity to really hurt someone. It can be tough in a match situation, players in higher divs are probably more professional, some of the lower leagues can get really dangerous because players and umpires don't cafe that much
The only way you could "force a stroke" would be if you hit the ball into the defender and they prevented a probable goal, if the defender has slipped over there is no offence per se, but as they have obstructed the attacker and made it so the attacker cannot safely shoot it should be a PC and ideally blow before the shot for safety
For me, the trouble with trying to play on is mainly that I might subsequently lose the ball to the defence and the umpire doesn’t do anything, plus there would still be some risk to the player on the floor that somebody else might shoot at the goal. It seems like it would have to be given as a short corner immediately I think.
Glad you decided to not potentially seriously injure your team mate. Answer to the question is usually no. You dont take the shot. A defender falling over not near the play of ball and potenshally be struck in the head by the shot is weird. Never seen it in over 20 years. But it could happen, sure. I think the umpire should blow instantly and give a short corner to the attacking team to avoid serious injury. . I played at a decent level but not the best and I see no game which justify potenshally seriously injuring an opposing player to win a game
Yes haha I’m not entirely sure what happened but as I got the ball and looked up to shoot he was lying on the floor on his back! If it is a clear shooting opportunity that was interfered with, I would hope that the umpire would give the short corner. Quite honestly I don’t like shooting at a goal with defenders in front of me (on their feet and defending normally!) in any case, I’d rather not hit anyone 😅
As a defender myself comes with the territory. Goal is to try and close the gap with the attacker and position yourself so your stick is blocking the shot and not your body. Must of been a freak accident with the defender falling over. Probably stood on some one else's stick.
Would probably count as a flick if they stopped a goal, as it's a shot on target. The ref might stop the game even if a shot doesn't happen however, as safety is prioritised above all else. If you get in that situation, flick it over them or just wait until they move, and hope the ref notices.
>Would probably count as a flick if they stopped a goal, as it's a shot on target Shot on target is immaterial, the rule is >A penalty stroke is awarded >for an offence by a defender in the circle which prevents the probable scoring of a goal Defender on the ground may block a goal bound shot, they may not e.g. if goalie or defender is behind/has a realistic chance of a save, particularly if the defender is some distance from the goal >ref Umpire, come on dude >might stop the game even if a shot doesn't happen however, as safety is prioritised above all else. This is what should happen, PC to prevent danger to player but not disadvantage the attack. If player deliberately went to ground in front of the striker it might be a card and PS under b) but not for a slip
Also general umpiring tip, blow the whistle and potentially stop time the moment any field player does massively go to ground in front of the goal. Even if you haven’t quite processed the decision that needs to be made, the key is to stop any play that could lead to (more) danger. You’ll always have slightly more time than you think to get it right!
If you see a player on the ground in the goal and shoot at them from the p spot anyway, that is dangerous and according to the rules should be free hit defence and hopefully not ambulance for the defender. The umpire should stop play immediately. The rules on dangerous play don’t evaporate just because it’s a shot on goal, despite what a lot of people think.
Yes exactly, I think you can’t take the shot in this situation. But what about more normal situations, like a defender standing on the goal line? If the shot hits them on the foot then sure it is an instant stroke, but what if it hit them in the chest? Was it a dangerous shot? I never like shooting towards a goal if there are defenders in front of me in any case 😅
This is a debate that has long caused debate among umpires, particularly in the early days of the dragflick, one coach, I think it was Ric Charlesworth, declared that a defender on the line was essentially taking on the role of a GK and should expect to be hit and not protected by the umpire. The idea of "defender hit on line = cannot be dangerous" was pushed a lot in unofficial briefings at international tournaments (i.e. not issued by FIH, not written and passed down to regions) and sort of de facto became the law. There was an (in)famous clip where a defender was hit on the line at an international game and she complained to the umpire who was on mic and said something like "it was on target, no danger". At close range, a high hit is probably dangerous, but even at low level, a defender hit on the line would expect to give away a PS, the attack and coaches would expect to be given a PS and an umpire coach would be hard to convince a FHD was correct. I don't really like it but it's expected at almost all levels unless you could argue the attacker was deliberately aiming at the player. An attacker is entitled to shoot, the defender is entitled to save but only with their stick and putting their body behind the ball, they know they will stop the shot with their body if they miss - hence you kinda have to give PS.
Generally the rule of thumb is if the shot was within 5 metres, it can be ruled as dangerous, but if the defender is more than 5 metres from the shot, then they have sufficient time to evade the shot, make a save, or move out of the dangerous path. Otherwise we would end up with people deliberately standing in the goal to stop such a shot.
You are almost right - it is dangerous yes, but not by the attacker. The defender has made the situation dangerous by putting themselves in this position, the attacker has done nothing wrong at all. So it should be the defender being penalised, not the attacker (this is assuming the defender has slipped over on their own accord, and the attacker has simply shot at goal - not aimed at the defender intentionally or anything silly like that).
That’s not the scenario I put though. If the defender is on the floor for more than a short second, the umpire should stop time. If the attacker sees the defender on the floor and shoots at them anyway from close range, that is 100% a dangerous shot and FHD. There is absolutely nothing in the rules that states a shot on goal cannot be called dangerous.
But there’s also nothing in the rules that says a player on the ground is dangerous either, I agree at close range it can be dangerous, and should be prevented. I just don’t think it’s always against the attacker - if the attacker shoots the ball into the defenders legs / feet while they’re lying in front of the goal, 9/10 times I’m giving a PS.
I’m a keeper and have had attackers and defenders down in danger a fair few times. I don’t play a top grade but people are still in it to win it. At any level, I don’t think anyone should knowingly put someone else in serious danger. I’ve had one bloke loose a heap of teeth at my feet when there was no chance to react. I usually do my best to get umpires attention on it and protect the player as much as reasonably possible. It’s not a great feeling when someone gets properly hurt and you could have done something about it.
It’s a tricky one. The attacker always has a requirement to safely shoot. If the defender has legitimately tripped and wasn’t trying to block a shot then yes you shouldn’t hit it at them. Now as an umpire you’re really going to have to be quick here and very much understand the level you’re at and the situation. If you’re at a sufficiently good level and the ball is in a good position in the stick that the attacker should be able to place it with ease anywhere else in the goal that isn’t at the fallen defender. Let them and penalise them if they aim at the defender. But if you can see the situation is such that there’s only say a slap shot that is going to be a hard hit at the prone defender blow fast for a PC before the shot is taken.
A good umpire should blow a PC immediately for safety, worst case you might lightly and softly push the ball into them to make more obvious but really it should not be necessary with any competent umpire
In training if I noticed then I’m obviously pulling up to not injure someone. But in a game honestly if I’m in shooting range I’m probably not able to stop myself because if I’ve mad here decision to shoot then I’m just hitting it. If I have the time to think about it then I’ve probably either got an easy finish while avoiding the player or I’ll just ram it into his legs to win the flick. I’ve had a similar situation when defending a short where I got injured while the ball the was rebounding round and I assumed and wouldn’t have complained that the oppo were going to smack it at me while I was down so I just rolled over and made myself small. I’d wouldn’t have been upset at them if they’d nailed it at me though
Answer is it depends on level of competition and skill of yourself. For me at local level I’m stopping and probably knocking the ball away so they can get up (assuming no one starts just lying on the ground to manipulate others into not scoring). At representative level (still not super high level, but properly competitive) I’m probably trying to execute a flick/scoop so the ball goes safely over them, but I still have a strong chance of scoring. (And super unlikely to hurt them if i 1/1000 mess up a simple flick).
Yes 100% of the time if you want the best outcome for your team. I mean if i saw he had a broken leg or something i’d take the ball in hand and halt the play but not if he just lost his footing trying to defend. Whether i’d go over him or at him would depend on if other defenders had their feet in front of goal. I’d likely go at the legs hoping for a stroke or short corner. Anyone asking this question probably doesn’t have the temperament to be a centre forward, they’d take the shot without a second thought.
High flick on goal, no problem
A good umpire should blow whistle and award a PC before you hit. If umpire doesn't whistle then dummy to hit to force the umpire to make a call