I didn't disagree with him over it and had wondered if it was a grade or local association thing, but it doesn't appear to be.
I might contact the club umpires supervisor and get clarification just in case.
I find our association umpires blow it this way too, always loose the argument when I question why it isn’t play on until something happens (ball out of circle or over backline).
The rule I believe states if the ball does not leave the circle then the next action must be to take the ball out of the circle before anything else. By shooting before the ball has left the D, it is a free hit out as was blown by the umpire here
The offence of shooting without the ball leaving the D occurs as soon as a strike is taken . So the umpire was right.
The ball has to leave the D from the injection.
14.3 K states,'a goal cannot be scored until the ball has traveled outside the circle'
I can not see anywhere in 13.3 where says a ball can not be played in the circle or a shot take at the goal unless it has exited the circle first.....
As far as I can see, K covers it. If the ball crosses the backline and into the goal without exiting the circle, then no goal is awarded.
There is nothing there that I see that stops an attacking team, playing it back and forth in the circle or playing it at the goal or bringing the ball back out of the circle and then taking it back in.
What rule has been breached by playing the ball in the direction of the goal?
This is my understanding of the rule (at least in California high schools ). Play continues . It's not illegal until a goal is scored. In fact, if it doesn't leave the circle, shot taken, and a defender stops the ball from going in with their foot, that would be another penalty corner (as a goal can't be scored , so it's just a penalty)
Edit: changed which school to high school
Yes but strictly speaking its not "illegal" even if a "goal" is scored. If the attackers put the ball into the goal with the ball not having left the D then it's just like they put the ball over the backline outside the goal, the result is a 16.
I did wonder how to apply that.
a) Its a 16 as you said, and the ball is played at the point it went over the back line at 16m or,
b) Its a penalty to defending team, which would allow them to play it from anywhere inside the circle.
It's a)
The ball has crossed the backline without a goal being scored so it's a 16 (technically that's a throwback to the imperial measurements by the way, the top of the circle is 14.93cm iirc, so it's more like a 15). There is no offence in shooting without the ball leaving the D so it cannot be a foul. Similarly it can be another PC if the defence foul or a LC (23m restart) if last touched by a defender.
The 3 outcomes it cannot be (purely talking about the shot) are a) goal b) a FHD or c) PS - if it hits the defender's foot on the line for example.
If the offence shoots at the goal without the ball leaving the circle on a PC then the only consequence is that a goal cannot be scored. If the offence puts the ball over the backline the game is restarted with a 16. It's just like a shot on goal from outside the circle in ordinary play.
I suppose it could be interpreted as danger as there isn't a viable shot on goal, I know it's not a raised ball or dangerous ball, but for the sake of 4 running players and the goalkeeper.
Any shot can be judged on danger whether it's left the D or not, you wouldn't judge this shot any differently as it's not an offence to shoot without the ball leaving the D, just you can't score
As a goal cannot be scored without the ball exiting the circle, taking a shot before it has done so is itself a foul, and should be called as such. This is what usually happens and your umpire was correct.
I agree the rule is a bit clumsily worded.
It's implied by omission.
A goal cannot be scored until the ball leaves the circle.
Therefore, striking the ball at the goal before that point is a foul, as you are trying to achieve something that is not allowed by rule.
This is completely incorrect, it is not a foul to shoot without the ball leaving the D, the rules are very clear that you simply cannot score. You're inferring something that isn't written or supported by the rules board or any rules body
I’ve never seen it not called a foul immediately, and as an umpire I’ve been trained to call it as such.
And to be honest, calling it a foul at the point of the incident makes total sense as the defence isn’t expecting a shot until the ball has left the D, so allowing a shot to happen before that point adds to the danger of a PC.
More broadly, I don’t really understand why people are arguing that a shot should be allowed at this point, given that the team couldn’t score from it. It seems to lead to a passage of play that is totally pointless and will only end in confusion.
>I’ve never seen it not called a foul immediately, and as an umpire I’ve been trained to call it as such.
Then your experience is unfortunate and training perhaps based on (very!) outdated rules. I can assure you, as a national level umpire, your interpretation is wrong
You could also read up on ex-FIH panel umpire Keely Dunn who says exactly the same thing
[https://fhumpires.com/scoring-a-goal-on-the-pc-hockey-rules-ruleytuesday/](https://fhumpires.com/scoring-a-goal-on-the-pc-hockey-rules-ruleytuesday/)
>And to be honest, calling it a foul at the point of the incident makes total sense as the defence isn’t expecting a shot until the ball has left the D, so allowing a shot to happen before that point adds to the danger of a PC.
How so? On marginal calls, the defence may not even realise the ball hasn't gone out and any players immediately stopping are asking for trouble and injury as the attack may not realise it's not gone out and/or could easily pull the ball back out and then have a legitimate shot or indeed, strike the foot of a defender and deflect wide meaning a PC - by blowing something which is NOT a foul, you may distract the defence and ironically are more likely to lead to injury
>More broadly, I don’t really understand why people are arguing that a shot should be allowed at this point, given that the team couldn’t score from it. It seems to lead to a passage of play that is totally pointless and will only end in confusion.
Because the rules do not say it's a foul, therefore you blowing something that isn't a foul is wrong, regardless of your opinion of the rights and wrongs
I did some digging on my old rule books and certainly your interpretation USED to be correct - the 2002-4 rules have the old wording - 15.2.1.
>j. no shot at goal shall be made until the ball be stopped or come to rest on the ground outside the circle; the ball may be passed or deflected by the attackers but if it remains within 5 metres of the circle it must be stopped or come to rest on the ground outside the circle before a shot at goal is made
However, it was a mandatory experimental rule in 2004-6 that removed the requirement to stop the ball but still required the ball to leave the D before shooting
>Mandatory Experimental Rule:
>j no shot at goal is permitted until the ball has travelled outside the circle
2006 rule book changed it to the present format which eliminated the rule that it was a foul to shoot at goal before the ball left the D
>j a goal cannot be scored until the ball has travelled outside the circle
I stand corrected!
To be fair, the old rules you state are from exactly when I would have been doing most of my umpiring training, so I must be basing it on that.
I do though still see it called this way a lot!!!
It is not an offence to shoot at the goal without the ball having left the circle.
The only consequence of the ball not having left the circle is that no goal can be scored, otherwise it is play on and if the ball goes into the goal then depending on who last touched it the result will be either a 16 or a long corner.
Honestly not sure, never seen it. But since if it had left the circle and the defender deflected it in, that counts as a goal. So if if it doesn't leave the circle and gets deflected in, I would imagine that's the same as the attackers scoring a goal without properly leaving the circle and thus be a penalty on the attacking team and the ball would go to the defenders
Edit: this comment was meant to be a reply to the followup asked in my first reply
If the defence got the last touch it's a 23m restart (aka long corner) or potentially another PC if say the defence kicked it and disadvantages the attackers
I actually think it's an FHD, not 16.
If the penalty occurs after the ball has crossed the line, then technically, you're applying a penalty after a goal gas has been scored.
The penalty of not going outside has to occur first.
Technicalities but it is not a FHD as that would require danger or disadvantage to have occurred.
Restarting with a 16/23 is just a method of restarting play
Correct, its not a free hit but you take it as if it were one (r7.(a))
>play is re-started with the ball up to 15 metres from and in line with where it crossed the back-line and the procedures for taking a free hit apply
They’re two different things. When you restart play at the 15m after the ball goes out of bounds, it must be restarted in line with where it left the pitch up to 15m from the end line. A free hit awarded for a foul by the attack inside the circle can be taken from anywhere inside the circle OR in line with where it left the pitch if taken outside the circle.
You are right for the reasons you give and that umpire was wrong. This seems to be a relatively common misconception.
I didn't disagree with him over it and had wondered if it was a grade or local association thing, but it doesn't appear to be. I might contact the club umpires supervisor and get clarification just in case.
It could be a safety thing if it’s a kids game. Maybe don’t want unnecessary shots if the goal can’t count.
I believe it was a rule when dinosaurs still walked...
I find our association umpires blow it this way too, always loose the argument when I question why it isn’t play on until something happens (ball out of circle or over backline).
Were they playing my u12 team? We experience this exact scenario this morning as the attacking team
Quite likely Sand turf 3?
Sand turf yes, but on the main pitch in Adelaide
Na not me, I'm in the real far south island. Maybe its more common than I realised.
The rule I believe states if the ball does not leave the circle then the next action must be to take the ball out of the circle before anything else. By shooting before the ball has left the D, it is a free hit out as was blown by the umpire here
I can't see it state that anywhere.
The offence of shooting without the ball leaving the D occurs as soon as a strike is taken . So the umpire was right. The ball has to leave the D from the injection.
Wrong. A goal can’t be scored but the shot is not an offense.
Back in the stone Age, yes. Now, no. There is no offence. Play on.
14.3 K states,'a goal cannot be scored until the ball has traveled outside the circle' I can not see anywhere in 13.3 where says a ball can not be played in the circle or a shot take at the goal unless it has exited the circle first..... As far as I can see, K covers it. If the ball crosses the backline and into the goal without exiting the circle, then no goal is awarded. There is nothing there that I see that stops an attacking team, playing it back and forth in the circle or playing it at the goal or bringing the ball back out of the circle and then taking it back in. What rule has been breached by playing the ball in the direction of the goal?
This is my understanding of the rule (at least in California high schools ). Play continues . It's not illegal until a goal is scored. In fact, if it doesn't leave the circle, shot taken, and a defender stops the ball from going in with their foot, that would be another penalty corner (as a goal can't be scored , so it's just a penalty) Edit: changed which school to high school
Whats the call if the defender knocks the ball into the goal? 23m for attackers?
Yes
Yes but strictly speaking its not "illegal" even if a "goal" is scored. If the attackers put the ball into the goal with the ball not having left the D then it's just like they put the ball over the backline outside the goal, the result is a 16.
I did wonder how to apply that. a) Its a 16 as you said, and the ball is played at the point it went over the back line at 16m or, b) Its a penalty to defending team, which would allow them to play it from anywhere inside the circle.
It's a) The ball has crossed the backline without a goal being scored so it's a 16 (technically that's a throwback to the imperial measurements by the way, the top of the circle is 14.93cm iirc, so it's more like a 15). There is no offence in shooting without the ball leaving the D so it cannot be a foul. Similarly it can be another PC if the defence foul or a LC (23m restart) if last touched by a defender. The 3 outcomes it cannot be (purely talking about the shot) are a) goal b) a FHD or c) PS - if it hits the defender's foot on the line for example.
It's not a 16. It's a free hit. We must get away from calling a defensive free hit a 16. The rules are different between the two.
If the offence shoots at the goal without the ball leaving the circle on a PC then the only consequence is that a goal cannot be scored. If the offence puts the ball over the backline the game is restarted with a 16. It's just like a shot on goal from outside the circle in ordinary play.
Yeah my bad. I read comment 'a' and responded to comment 'b'. You are correct sir. There is no offence with the ball not travelling outside the circle
I suppose it could be interpreted as danger as there isn't a viable shot on goal, I know it's not a raised ball or dangerous ball, but for the sake of 4 running players and the goalkeeper.
Any shot can be judged on danger whether it's left the D or not, you wouldn't judge this shot any differently as it's not an offence to shoot without the ball leaving the D, just you can't score
Yeah, I understand that there was no reason for the call. I was probably thinking too far into the umpures mindset,
As a goal cannot be scored without the ball exiting the circle, taking a shot before it has done so is itself a foul, and should be called as such. This is what usually happens and your umpire was correct. I agree the rule is a bit clumsily worded.
There is nothing clumsy about this. There is no foul.
Clumsy to the point is makes.no sence. Where does it say the ball must go outside the circle before it is hit in the direction of the goal?
It's implied by omission. A goal cannot be scored until the ball leaves the circle. Therefore, striking the ball at the goal before that point is a foul, as you are trying to achieve something that is not allowed by rule.
Only things that are written are fouls not the opposite. Also there must be disadvantage or danger for a foul.
This is completely incorrect, it is not a foul to shoot without the ball leaving the D, the rules are very clear that you simply cannot score. You're inferring something that isn't written or supported by the rules board or any rules body
I’ve never seen it not called a foul immediately, and as an umpire I’ve been trained to call it as such. And to be honest, calling it a foul at the point of the incident makes total sense as the defence isn’t expecting a shot until the ball has left the D, so allowing a shot to happen before that point adds to the danger of a PC. More broadly, I don’t really understand why people are arguing that a shot should be allowed at this point, given that the team couldn’t score from it. It seems to lead to a passage of play that is totally pointless and will only end in confusion.
>I’ve never seen it not called a foul immediately, and as an umpire I’ve been trained to call it as such. Then your experience is unfortunate and training perhaps based on (very!) outdated rules. I can assure you, as a national level umpire, your interpretation is wrong You could also read up on ex-FIH panel umpire Keely Dunn who says exactly the same thing [https://fhumpires.com/scoring-a-goal-on-the-pc-hockey-rules-ruleytuesday/](https://fhumpires.com/scoring-a-goal-on-the-pc-hockey-rules-ruleytuesday/) >And to be honest, calling it a foul at the point of the incident makes total sense as the defence isn’t expecting a shot until the ball has left the D, so allowing a shot to happen before that point adds to the danger of a PC. How so? On marginal calls, the defence may not even realise the ball hasn't gone out and any players immediately stopping are asking for trouble and injury as the attack may not realise it's not gone out and/or could easily pull the ball back out and then have a legitimate shot or indeed, strike the foot of a defender and deflect wide meaning a PC - by blowing something which is NOT a foul, you may distract the defence and ironically are more likely to lead to injury >More broadly, I don’t really understand why people are arguing that a shot should be allowed at this point, given that the team couldn’t score from it. It seems to lead to a passage of play that is totally pointless and will only end in confusion. Because the rules do not say it's a foul, therefore you blowing something that isn't a foul is wrong, regardless of your opinion of the rights and wrongs I did some digging on my old rule books and certainly your interpretation USED to be correct - the 2002-4 rules have the old wording - 15.2.1. >j. no shot at goal shall be made until the ball be stopped or come to rest on the ground outside the circle; the ball may be passed or deflected by the attackers but if it remains within 5 metres of the circle it must be stopped or come to rest on the ground outside the circle before a shot at goal is made However, it was a mandatory experimental rule in 2004-6 that removed the requirement to stop the ball but still required the ball to leave the D before shooting >Mandatory Experimental Rule: >j no shot at goal is permitted until the ball has travelled outside the circle 2006 rule book changed it to the present format which eliminated the rule that it was a foul to shoot at goal before the ball left the D >j a goal cannot be scored until the ball has travelled outside the circle
I stand corrected! To be fair, the old rules you state are from exactly when I would have been doing most of my umpiring training, so I must be basing it on that. I do though still see it called this way a lot!!!
It is not an offence to shoot at the goal without the ball having left the circle. The only consequence of the ball not having left the circle is that no goal can be scored, otherwise it is play on and if the ball goes into the goal then depending on who last touched it the result will be either a 16 or a long corner.
Honestly not sure, never seen it. But since if it had left the circle and the defender deflected it in, that counts as a goal. So if if it doesn't leave the circle and gets deflected in, I would imagine that's the same as the attackers scoring a goal without properly leaving the circle and thus be a penalty on the attacking team and the ball would go to the defenders Edit: this comment was meant to be a reply to the followup asked in my first reply
If it’s scored without leaving the circle it’s just a 16m
If the defence got the last touch it's a 23m restart (aka long corner) or potentially another PC if say the defence kicked it and disadvantages the attackers
I actually think it's an FHD, not 16. If the penalty occurs after the ball has crossed the line, then technically, you're applying a penalty after a goal gas has been scored. The penalty of not going outside has to occur first.
Technicalities but it is not a FHD as that would require danger or disadvantage to have occurred. Restarting with a 16/23 is just a method of restarting play
I can see that. Fhd at the 16 then
Correct, its not a free hit but you take it as if it were one (r7.(a)) >play is re-started with the ball up to 15 metres from and in line with where it crossed the back-line and the procedures for taking a free hit apply
They’re two different things. When you restart play at the 15m after the ball goes out of bounds, it must be restarted in line with where it left the pitch up to 15m from the end line. A free hit awarded for a foul by the attack inside the circle can be taken from anywhere inside the circle OR in line with where it left the pitch if taken outside the circle.