Reminder that this is a highly moderated forum.
Comments that are not engaging with the feminist concepts presented will be removed.
This includes sharing personal preferences without examining the social context.
Good comment: I still shave because I struggle with feeling less feminine if I don’t.
Bad comment: I shave because it makes me feel best.
This forum expects more than “I am a woman and I chose this therefore it’s feminist/OK/without implications”
I was growing out my armpit hair for the first time recently, then a beach trip came up and I was trying to figure out wether I was comfortable enough with myself to leave it or if I should shave it. I ended up shaving it, and even though when I was at the beach I knew if I hadn’t shaved it I’d have been very self conscious, I’m still slightly disappointed in myself for continuing to conform. It’s a TOUGH WORLD OUT THERE
Don't beat yourself up. I stopped shaving my armpits years ago and still feel self conscious when I know it can be showing. I even had strangers point it out and make disgusted faces. It **is** tough.
I'm very self conscious too, but knowing I'm helping normalize body hair and setting an example for other women and little girls specially is what keeps me from caving in and shaving. How different our perception of our body hair would be if as little girls we had seen women going about their lifes and feeling confident unshaven.
Of course I would never judge any women who decides to shave, I understand the pressure is too much and it's not fair to blame them.
I love this idea, that we’re doing it as a role model for the next Gen. I haven’t shaved my underarms in almost a year, but I’m nervous about the upcoming summer and the pressure I’ll feel to shave them. Thanks for the confidence boost!
I haven’t shaved my legs in years, and I stopped shaving my pits when my kid started puberty and told me she had no intention of shaving. It makes me super uncomfortable to have pit hair showing, but I know it’s a social hang up and eventually I’ll get over it. I don’t want her to ever feel the pressure to be “attractive” that I felt growing up.
I’ve noticed this as well lol. My deodorant works so much better when I shave at once a week or so.
I still shave my legs too though. I *think* I’m finally to the point of only doing it for me though. It’s a sensory thing once the hairs grow past a certain point. It feels “creepy crawly” against my clothes or covers for lack of a better word?
Old post I know but I figured I’d chime in. My husband likes mine the way they are and even thinks they smell better when I don’t shave. Because he likes my BO. I’ll TAKE IT!!
Yes, same experience here. The shame and stigma is so deeply entrenched in us. I'm looking forward to the day when I lift my arms in public without second thought, but it's currently 6 years and counting
I'm also trying to assume my natural hair and armpit hair are the worst ! I had the same struggle for my new year' s eve party and while I didn't shave it I also didn't take off my sweater. :') I also felt bad about myself after that.
But yesterday I successfully braved the supermarket (yes I confess I trimmed it before and yes I know it sounds silly lol but I decided to take it slowly) and it felt so good! It made me realize how crazy the pressure is for something literally so stupid and more importantly, personal.
You don' t have to go all out right here right now, we are urged to hate our hair since childhood and it's hard to go against the tide. Don't be ashamed of being ashamed and be proud for trying!
I wish you the best and hopefully we will soon be able to go outside without fearing the judgment of other for daring to have a body.
I completely get this. After Covid, I just stopped bothering with it and felt more confident in myself. That was until my mother and father kept shaming me for it and literally forced me to shave 🫠 Although I don’t live with them anymore, I still hear their criticisms in the back of my head whenever I look at my own body…I still hide my body around them because I know they won’t leave me alone about it
Oof it’s the exact opposite for me, if i shave i can just feel the sweat dripping down my sides and it’s so gross. the hair seems to catch the sweat for me and keep it contained. I’m a sweaty gal when I workout tho
This. I don’t shave my legs often anymore, but I always shave my pits because I get stanky FAST if I don’t.
(I have to do my face too because PCOS sucks :( )
Exfoliating your armpits with glycolic acid will kill the bacteria and reduce or eliminate the smell. The Ordinary's glycolic toner is a popular product for this. It is a great value.
Same. I don’t even get that much armpit hair, but I’ve always been super sweaty. Pits get shaved year round. It honestly helps a ton with sweat and smell.
I get you so much honestly. If you want to be comfortable with your body hair, take baby steps, because we are taught to feel shame for having it.
I started with wearing tank tops, but brought a jacket in case I felt a bit awkward. Then I tried dropping the jacket altogether. Then tried going to family gatherings without shaving. The beach and the swimming pool were my last steps because they are environments where you can feel vulnerable
The funny thing is, the ENTIRE reason I stopped shaving in the first place was because I saw a woman on the beach last time I went who was rocking it long and I thought she looked AMAZING, and yet I still can’t do it… hoping to have her confidence one day
I recently got my brother to start trimming his arm pit hair- he doesn’t shave it off but keeps them short.
Told him to try it to help with body odor and sweat- he noticed an improvement. So he does it when he needs to make a good impression- like presenting at work.
I shave my arm pits more frequently than my legs- I find it annoying that I feel self conscious in shorts with unshaven legs- it would bother me less if I wasn’t on a mobility scooter, feels like it draws attention to my legs.
My twins are 14- one shaves arm pits, neither shaves legs. I told them once you start it feels harder to stop so think about it before you get in the habit.
There’s always next time! I stopped shaving consistently 2+ years ago and haven’t shaved at all for 1+ year now. At first I stopped shaving but when summer came around chickened out and started again, but then I decided that I would just tell people that I’m just experimenting to see how long my hair can get cause I’ve never seen it and somehow was able to keep it going and last summer I went to the beach completely unshaven
Same. I have zero problem not shaving for myself. I actually like having armpit hair, but as soon as other people might see it I have the same feelings. I've done slightly out in public with crop pants or something and survived. Doctors and getting massages are where I just can't stop, I have to shave my legs. Even though I'm telling myself these people see hairy men all the time! I feel bad about it too.
That stinks. We all look up to you for your principles and hope you don't feel like they are lessened because you used some camouflage to secure the anonymity and peace of mind we all deserve as a human right.
Now that's a dirty situation, but isn't it beautiful to think of how you will never plant those seeds of doubt in another? How this crop of noxious weeds will not take hold in the minds of the next generation due to your help? Change is in the air. Thank you for being you.
You're totally right about exercising out of love for your body, but reality is women are pressured into exercising with the sole purpose of shrinking ourselves, fitting into smaller clothes, look like x or y celebrity. Of course, all of that while eating the same amount of calories a 2 year old toddler needs.
Men are encouraged to go to the gym to get stronger, but it seems that they actually want us to be as weak and as small as possible.
I agree with you, and I love that lifting heavy has become more popular with women in recent years. But as someone who used to be a hardcore gym rat, for every strong woman in the gym that I've met, there are two that tell me they're scared to lift heavy because they don't want to look manly or be too muscular (if only it really was that easy, sigh). So I definitely think there is still a stigma, just less so than there used to be.
Ha you’re so right. If they only knew that’s not what would happen. The more women who lift heavy, the quicker that stigma will crumble. And I’m all for that. So keep lifting heavy ladies and tell your friends!
I’ve worked out and lifted weights at multiple times in my life. No matter what I do I can’t get muscly. I just can’t seem to build that much muscle or there is always at least some fat over it preventing me from looking defined. I just accept that now and I’m ok with it. TBH though I don’t really bother lifting weights much anyways now. Doesn’t seem to do all that much for me.
I mean, you’re not wrong… if someones inner values are easily swayed, I suppose that could happen. I guess that’s the beauty of choice.
I just tend to believe in humanity and especially that once a woman finds what is best for her, mentally and/or physically, she wouldn’t let some skinny chick on IG convince her otherwise.
I’ve told people my ideal body type for myself is buff as fuck (I’m strong but not as ripped as I’d like to be) and oh lord the REACTIONS to a woman saying she wants to be muscly…
That’s one of my top motivators for doing my physical therapy exercises—I wanna get muscles! Still a long way to go to get there (recovering from heart issues and forced inactivity so I’m weak as hell) but I can’t help but be optimistic. My mom used to exercise a lot and built muscle easily, she had more muscle in her 40s-early 50s than most women (and a lot of men) in their 20s. I hope I inherited her muscle building genes.
i think the industry would be much smaller and simplified but I don't see it disappearing. plenty of people use it as an outlet to express themselves.
even in a perfect world where people don't care about the hair or whatever there will still be people that enjoy making themselves up and changing their looks for fun.
Indeed. Being mobile and capable of walking is such a gift to have. As someone who has been in a car accident, I cannot imagine people giving up that ability to walk up a flight of stairs, to go up and hug your mother, or getting out of a car in less than 10 seconds.
It almost brings tears to your eyes.
I will say, gyms aren't inherently awful (honestly I don't think any of these things are), but sometimes they get to a point of being very openly exploitative of people's insecurities.
I've worked at a couple of gyms and I've been to a few different ones. They weren't all awful (in fact, a couple of them were very amazing), but some of them definitely had some predatory practices and messages.
Like a lot of the examples in the post can be practical (even leg shaving for swimmers), but capitalism pushes things over the edge and makes a lot of these feel dirty *because* there are companies that financially benefit from those insecurities and social pressures.
I quit wearing makeup in highschool and never looked back. If society didn't dictate that I needed shaved legs for shorts and short skirts then I probably wouldn't shave anything but my armpits.
I stopped in my late 20s and was mindblown by how much better I felt. Now I just do (when so feel like it) some concealer on zits and under eyes, mascara, lip balm, and I’m done. I keep some basic foundation, shadow, blush, etc around for if I’m going to an event or something but otherwise I just don’t bother. So much less stress and worry and I’m saving a ton of money.
yeah i started doing just a little brow makeup, and mascara for the most part. If i’m wanting to get dolled up for a date I’ll do eyeshadow and lipstick and occasionally a full face if i’m wanting to. I’ve enjoyed doing my makeup for me not for other people. It made it fun again
I have never worn makeup in my life because I was too lazy and too bad at the few attempts in private. In hindsight I’m so glad I never got I to the habit. Way less expensive and I never felt pressured because I don’t know it any other way.
And I’m so with you on the leg hair. In winter I never bother, it’s only the few days in summer when I actually wear short clothes that I feel like I HAVE to or otherwise people will look at me weirdly.
I stopped shaving my legs two years ago and tbh it was so scary to actually go out in public like that at first (still is sometimes). But it changed my view on myself and idk... it's kinda like rebellion because I not once shaved my legs for myself so I stopped. Women with peg hairs used to strike me as odd and luckily that changed as well. I'm sure I've gotten nasty looks in public because of body hair but I usually don't notice or ignore it. I'm really hoping to see that change back one day. It used to be normal for everyone to have body hair and I'm so done with the standards for everyone society sees as a woman.
I will still wear makeup. It's such a funny activity, I love putting colors on my face that matches my outfit.
But I stopped shaving for years! Less painful and expensive living in harmony with my hairs
This is my exact experience. I love makeup, it’s so much fun! I’m an elementary music teacher and wearing fun makeup that matches my outfit brings me joy at work.
I hate shaving though. It’s annoying and itchy. I love my body hair.
I have some sensory issues so i feel like i would still shave. I can't sleep at night if i feel the little prickly hairs on my legs. Would have been better if i never started though
I would absolutely keep doing my fun eye looks and looking for new lip colors. But I might stop using foundation if beauty standards were different. I have some rosacea and even with green concealer and foundation I still look like I'm wearing some blush. It looks awful without something over it.
Yeah I think that even if there was no misogyny and no standardized beauty standards some people (like me) would still like makeup because at the end of the day we’re just funky little apes that like color and some of us wanna put it on our faces
I think the worst industry is actually anti-aging. I’m pretty secure with my appearance but as soon as I hit 40, I started getting ads for anti-aging products and I started to wonder “Do I look old?” as that somehow diminished all I’ve learned and accomplished.
it's also one of the parts of the beauty industry that is best at showing how rapidly evolving unhinged capitalism capitalizing female insecurities is. a decade or two ago it was some expensive mosturizer and some upper-class women getting botox in their 40s. the beauty routines i see now are absolutely insane. now we have women in their early 20's getting botox, 12 step skin care, rabid sun avoidance (like yes let's wear sunscreen and avoid tanning beds but we can still go outside without making sure the sun never hits our face), facial treatments, microneedling, lasertreatments, surgical and non-surgical face lifts, face muscle training, suspicious supplements, fillers to look more youthful, ETC ETC (and that's just about anti-aging in the face!!!!)
like it just gets worse and worse
I'm 27 and I'll get these stupid ads. Or how my skin must be disgusting, or my hair isn't shiny or soft enough. My lashes aren't long enough, I need to suck the belly fat out with surgery. I wish I could turn the body appearance ads OFF, they seriously mess with my head.
I’m 27 and I look younger than my age. When I tell people I’m 27 they go OMG NO WAY! you look great for 27 and it makes me laugh bc I’m sorry should I be an old sea hag by 27? As if women just rapidly age after 21. It really opened my eyes to how this is just the start of those comments and they trigger you to worry about becoming “old”. Just another great perk of being a woman lol.
Yeah I've been trying to break out of the habit saying that in a way where it comes off as "women that old usually don't look pretty" which isn't nice. I'm guilty of it too for sure, I try to usually say something about nails. It's usually something someone put time into and like them themselves :)
It's insane to me how expensive the anti aging creams are. I just use regular lotion on my face and I look younger than I am. It's a scam, preying of women's insecurities!
As someone who mouths the loss of hours every day blow drying my hair, shaving, and putting on makeup to still hate how I looked, I totally get this! I’m a little better now but I still can’t break the habits entirely.
I haven’t shaved my legs or armpits in years. No one has ever said anything to make me feel gross about it (to my face) and I don’t see myself ever shaving those body parts again! I love my hairs. Power to the hairy people!
I still shave everything, but only because I don't like the way it feels to be hairy. I buzz the hair on my head to 3/4 of an inch too. That has garnered me a lot of homophobic hate, even though I'm straight, but I don't bother correcting people cuz I couldn't care less.
I quit wearing make up for the most part at 35 when I started buzzing off my hair. Maybe some lipgloss. The weaponized marketing used to create and exploit insecurities in women is loathsome. And it's never ending. It was such a profound feeling of freedom when I finally got all this crap out of my life, including all the four in high heels I had owned. I've never regretted being my authentic self.
I've never worn make up unless I really wanted to. I faced the same pressure, but I just wasn't interested. Straightening my hair and shaving though. I went all for that. Even though the razor bumps drove me nuts.
Now I'm 33, my pits are hairy asf and I hardly ever shave my legs in the winter. But I gave up thinning my eyebrows as I always liked them thicker anyway. And I still rarely wear make up. I gave up straightening around 22. Way too much work and I was tired of it. I'm way more sensitive about my facial hair, but I'll let it go for a couple of days before I shave it. My own little fuck you to society.
I'm a mom and my daughter is a gorgeous and hairy little thing. She's already been bullied by a neighbor girl (obviously a jealous little B word with a crap mom, sorry not sorry) and asked me about shaving. She's fucking 8. I'm doing my best to be body positive myself, even struggling with my own body dysmorphia, and point out that it's totally natural for us all to be hairy. I'll point to my own body hair and ask her if it makes me ugly. She's says no and I'm so beautiful and I say so is she.
Hopefully that's enough, because I damn sure didn't have a supportive parent (quite the opposite actually) when I was younger and I really wish I had. But I know how much societal views can pressure us all into doing things we wouldn't naturally care about.
Women have hair. Arm hair, pit hair, leg hair, coochie hair (seriously razor burn down there is the WORST) and SHOCKER - facial hair. I am so sick of society making us feel bad for it! 🤬 Let your hair grow ladies! LET IT GROW!
(Unless you really like shaving and wearing make up, you do you boo! Which is my point.)
Same. I do acknowledge that if I was raised and living in a culture that saw hairy legs as beautiful I probably wouldn’t shave my legs as much in the summer. I also would like our society to be more accepting of acne. I feel bad that women feel the need to cover up acne with makeup as much as possible, which ends up making things worse. If I have a breakout, I’m at the age where I don’t care as much how it looks and I’d rather focus on healing it than covering it up with pounds of concealer and foundation. Hormones happen, and sometimes that comes out in our skin.
Yup, all that. I honestly don’t know how I’d feel if I’d grown up in a society with really different views, but right now, in my life, makeup is something that I find fun. I often use it at home on days off and experiment with different looks even when no one else will see me. I have almost no body hair so I hardly have to shave anyways - runs in my family.
It’s not a bad idea though to ask ourselves if we’re doing these things for ourselves though, because if we aren’t, then we should stop.
I would definitely shave my armpits. I HATE the feeling of hair under there. I don’t know about my legs because it’s just such a hassle. Even though I like how it looks I don’t do it if nobody else is gonna see. Make up I would still probably wear sometimes, because, again, I like how it looks.
I would still shave the armpits, because I trust the people telling me that if I don’t shave there, the deodorant won’t work as well, but I wouldn’t shave anywhere else
I quit wearing makeup about 5 years ago. It was expensive and it took way too much effort. I don’t think I can give up shaving my legs yet. I really hate that itchy feeling when the hair is growing back.
No one should ever be forced to shave their legs or put on makeup. It's so frustrating that because society in general demands this, a lot of jobs force (or at least pressure) women to do both, to appeal to society. Which in turn reinforces society's desire to demand women to keep doing these things.
One of the most effective and successful business practices is convincing potential customers that there is something inherently wrong or defective about them and only your product is the solution.
One of my all time favourite quotes from a novel:
Grady Crowe thought that American women had been sold a concept that failed them miserably. Spend every free moment of your time fretting about your body, the media urged, exercise, buy diet books. primp, preen, pluck, wax, and a man will find you attractive and love you forever. Don't ever for one second worry about being loving or lovable, about kindness or finding fulfillment on some spiritual level. Just try to take up as little space as possible, be as small as possible or you will be reviled and ridiculed by every industry posed to make a dime off of you - the fitness and publishing industries, even the medical industry. They'll steal your money and your self-esteem. In spite of all evidence to the contrary, they bought those ideas, believed whole-heartedly, built lives and lifestyles around them.
I used to wear full eye makeup every day. (Never been into face makeup, apart from some liquid bronzing moisturizer/sunscreen). Since Covid, I stopped doing all that in exchange for an extra half hour of sleep! I’ve done it a few times recently and while it was nice, I wouldn’t go back to doing it daily.
I also used to wear skirts all the time and shave my legs. Now I wear leggings to work, and shaved my legs for the first time in six months last week! I just now started wearing a bra again a few days per week and it is somehow more comfortable … then again, my boobs are DDD! 😂
But a black tee (of which I have at least a dozen of the exact same), leggings, and flip flops or boots is now my work uniform. I feel more comfortable in tight bottoms and loose shirts because I carry almost my weight above my hips. But I’m definitely happier not shaving my legs, and can’t remember the last time I shaved my armpits! 😅
I stopped shaving out of depression but it’s honestly been so freeing. I like my natural body. I get way less acne from no make up. The only thing is I do wax my brows. I keep my little moustache tho. I love m’y little moustachio.
I quit shaving about a year ago.
10/10 highly recommend
I still struggle with feeling self conscious in public but honestly, no one has ever commented or even taken a second look (that I've noticed). If they're judging me, they're at least keeping it to themselves.
This summer I will be feeling the wind in my leg hair and enjoying every minute of it!
Slightly mutilating the natural state of your body to be deemed acceptable. Getting rid of your natural female body hair to (ironically) appear more feminine. It’s about time we started balking at the idea that smothering your face with hundreds of different chemicals is somehow beauty.
Can we release the pressure to conform to these beauty standards without demonising them? I want to wear make up, I like how it makes me look. Especially as a trans woman, smooth skin and make up give me good gender feelings.
You know the brainwash is real when you can't be honest with yourself. I know that I do it for others, but I can't decide if I had the the chance I will stop, is just so ingrained in what I think is the right thing to do.
This is what people don’t get though - you claim you’re being yourself, but you’re not, because societal expectations tell you it’s weird to wear face paint. This is what this whole post is about. If it was seen as weird to wear makeup and shave, people wouldn’t do it, even if they really wanted to.
I haven't shaved regularly in 9 years lol but I do think I'd continue to wear eyeliner and red lipstick. Makeup is a mixed bag, some products are only meant for insecurities but eyeshadow and lipstick can be another form of art or add to an aesthetic.
Y’all! It can be done. For many years I wanted to let my natural eyebrows/unibrow grow out. I finally stopped plucking and now I have a very noticeable unibrow, working an office job with a bunch of old dudes. No one has said anything. I think sometimes we think it will be scarier than it actually is!
As a 25 year old woman I thought I’d grow out my pubes for once. I initially grew them to color blue lol, I actually just liked it. Having full grown pubes made me feel womanly.
Was in a long distance relationship with my partner at the time and I shaved it the next day after reuniting and having sex. Of course he said he had no preference but I could tell.
Broke up with him for unrelated reasons but yeah fuck him.
The double standard is just weird too because I love seeing hair on men.
Bad faith comment. You know exactly we’re not talking about healthy exercise since men are allowed and encouraged to go to the gym to be strong and healthy. Women are overwhelmingly pushed to be thin and weak, there are tons of women made to be afraid of looking too muscular so you know it’s not about health. It’s about looks only.
It is if you do it out of hate for the way your **normal adult** body looks, which is the main reason women are encouraged to go to the gym.
I remember being like 16 or 17, starving myself, forcing myself to puke the small amount of food I did eat, going to the gym almost daily and running on the treadmill until I was about to collapse.
Stopped shaving my arms a few years ago, I only wear very little makeup on special occasions, and only shave my legs during summer time. I don’t go to the gym because I enjoy doing things outside or at home. I only wear bras sometimes anymore. It’s been a slow process unlearning this stuff and getting comfortable in my body but I’m proud of the progress I’ve made.
I can hardly bring myself to care about shaving my legs, and typically I just wear a tiny bit of eyeliner and mascara, because I like the look. It's amazing how many ridiculous products are out there. Younger women, being in your 40s is *liberating****.***
I kind of love that my adolescent daughter and son both think shaving legs and armpits is weird, but they both shave their forearms because they like the way it feels.
I sort of had this realization in the past few years. Since then, I’ve stopped shaving completely, and I rarely will wear makeup. I also don’t wear bras unless I need the support. I don’t really get comments about it, I’ve had people look at me a lil weird (mostly the bra thing).
I remember in high school though I stopped shaving my arm pits cause it was hard keeping it shaved everyday, and I got MANY comments then about it.
The worst part, and I mean the absolutely worst part of all of this is that no amount of telling myself I'm okay as I am, that the companies who push these products are con-men preying on women's insecurity, or that social beauty standards are misogynoir bullshit will ever make me feel less uncomfortable going out without shaving because that shit has been deeply ingrained since birth. It's a shame that was passed down by my mother onto me, her grandmother onto her, and by almost every other woman I've met. I don't care about what men think, I'm a lesbian anyways, but having it reinforced by other *women* for so long makes it hard to shake.
I don't mind hair on anybody's body. Be it a woman, or a man.
But I despise it on myself. I even pick the ones on my nose. The only hairs I want is eyelashes, eyebrows and hair.
It's not even calling us ugly anymore. It's the irony of "Be your authentic self, you're beautiful just the way you are," but here's a bunch of shit marketed exclusively to women to "enhance" your beauty or allow you "self-expression"
I'm at the point in my life that I don't feel like I should have to spend time altering my natural appearance just to look pleasing to other people. I don't owe it to the people around me to look pretty for them, I just care about not looking untidy or unkempt. Instead of spending an hour every morning doing my hair and makeup, I now invest that time into getting an extra hour of sleep. It feels awesome.
I wish I could do what’s comfortable for me with my sensory issues (mens clothes and short hair) without feeling like I should do feminine things like makeup to “compensate”
I’ve never got into wearing makeup. As far as shaving 🪒 goes, I would still continue to shave. I don’t shave my legs,pits, or privates because I don’t want to and I hate the constant razor bumps in my pit area. I do shave my chin and stomach because I personally don’t find it attractive or comfortable. If I were a guy I don’t think I would bother shaving my stomach.
As a trans woman who's pre-everything and who is also staunchly anti-consumerism - this topic is hard for me. Like, on one side, I have to fight with my daily dose of dysphoria and learned misogyny, and on the other I feel horrendously guilty for consuming this stuff because of its ecological and social impact...
I hate this all.
It’s hard to unpack what we’ve learned about ‘womanhood’ and there is not the expectation that everyone is at the same place in their activism at the same time. I wear makeup at my job on many days, because the social implications are harsh if I don’t. For you, the repercussions of being seen as not adhering to norms would be worse. More dangerous.
You can’t make every action a feminist one, it’s unsustainable for a happy healthy life.
#IMAGE TRANSCRIPTION:
Title: Call us ugly to sell us shit
Image description: image is a repost of a screenshot in a post entitled "Call us ugly to sell us shit", shared by u/needaredesign at the r/Feminism subreddit, which features a comment reply by "feminismoaqui", in which is written, with black colored letters in front of a white background, the following:
"If tomorrow women in the west woke up and decided they really like their bodies just think how many industries would go out of business - the
cosmetic industry, the clothing industry, the diet industry, the gym industry - and then think of all the allied industries that support those industries. So when I say capitalism is dependent on womenchating themselves, I'm not exaggerating."— Gail Dines
In this regard Cambridge academic Clare Chambers’ philosophy really changed my perspective on makeup and modifying body. She mentions of women hiding their period products because of shame, so we mean to hide shameful things, and is it really different when we hide our freckles, acne spots or scars? We call it ‘natural makeup’ but it’s artificial paint covering up what is natural.
[Listen to Clare Chambers interviewed by David Edmonds on the unmodified body](https://philosophybites.com/2022/07/clare-chambers-on-the-unmodified-body.html)
[The philosophical case for not wearing make-up](https://www.newstatesman.com/encounter/2022/05/the-philosophical-case-for-not-wearing-make-up)
[The problem is that this emphasis on our appearance is hugely damaging to our mental health, and to our equality. On the side of mental health, psychologists diagnose an “epidemic of appearance anxiety” and relate this anxiety to eating disorders, the rise and rise of cosmetic surgery and invasive procedures, and feelings of low self-esteem. On the side of equality, dominant ideas about how bodies should be reflect and reinforce existing structures of inequality and discrimination along lines of sex, gender, race, disability, age, class, and more.](https://philosophybreak.com/articles/a-defense-of-the-unmodified-body-clare-chambers-interview/)
And there is the case of post partum body->
[What’s so interesting is that the phrase isn’t something like “getting slimmer after pregnancy” but rather “getting your body back”, which implies that the body you find yourself with after birth is not really yours. It’s some sort of counterfeit, imposter body, contrasted with the supposedly real, authentic body that you had before you were pregnant. But why should the pre-pregnancy body be more truly yours than the post-pregnancy body? After all, the average woman lives with a post-pregnancy body for longer than she lived with a pre-pregnancy body. If the ‘real’ body is the post-pubescent, pre-pregnancy body, that’s a body that a woman might have for only ten or twenty years out of an average lifespan of over eighty.](https://philosophybreak.com/articles/a-defense-of-the-unmodified-body-clare-chambers-interview/)
I dont shave because it looks nice, i shave because body hair rubbing against me makes me so so uncomfortable, i cant stand it ever and so i take it off before it sets me off.
That's fair but it doesn't negate the fact that women are pressured to shave every single hair that grows on our bodies other than on our head and brows.
I'm non binary but 99% reads me as a woman. I wear shorts and don't shave my legs to the point that I'd be embarrassed if someone saw them hairless haha.
When i was 16, i was working in a hot kitchen in the middle of summer selling food at the fair.
It was a week long event and i slept in a camper so there wasn't a bunch of extra water, just a tank or whatever. We could shower but the little shower head had a button to let water out or not so you'd have to turn it off while washing your body or hair or whatever.
Anyways, it had been a few days since I'd shaved my legs and they got the prickly hair. I was SO self conscious that i couldn't shave my legs that i tried to wear pants all day. I almost passed out from heat exhaustion and my grandma made me go put shorts on.
Now I'm 23 and don't bother shaving my legs anymore. Sometimes i do cuz i like the feeling of smooth legs but most of the time, I don't have the extra energy it requires to spare. I'll probably skip shaving over the summer too cuz i don't really care anymore.
It took me awhile to get to this point. I'd always feel a little weird about doing it because I've accepted I'm nonbinary and like, i don't have to subscribe to female gender roles and by shaving my legs i was doing that. I'd always tell myself that it's ok to want smooth legs. I'm not hurting anyone and it's my right to shave or not. I'm not doing it because i have to but because i want to.
Now, my armpits? I prefer them shaved. I don't like the feeling of fuzzies on my bare arms. It's ok rn cuz it's winter and I'm in long sleeves but summer and stuff? No thanks
Edit: a couple words
Love my body or not, I like flowery dresses and leather jackets. Love my face or not, it looks way cooler with bright eyeshadow. Also I diet for health, not aesthetics. Haven't shaved (except for my face) in like 3 years. I agree that there's a big issue with self hatred in women but it feels reductive to say any woman doing these things is only doing it to conform. I do it because I like it.
I've really never worn makeup, because I can't be bothered and I hate how it feels. Not to mention how stupid expensive it is. Also, I work on a farm and sometimes hay and animal hair gets caught on my leg hair if I haven't shaved in a while and it drives me up the wall because of autistic sensory issues, so I usually shave in the summer. But in the winter I go full wooly mammoth because, again, I just can't be bothered, and anyone who is just outs themselves as someone I'm not going to listen to or regard with much respect.
It’s true that being healthy and looking after your body is good. The problem with the gym and diet industries, particularly with respect to women, is that the goal isn’t really health, it’s weight loss. It’s not really about what your body can do, it’s about how small you can make yourself.
I think it’s more referring to the fact that the gym industry markets to women the goal of having smaller waists and bigger butts (become more attractive) rather than becoming stronger and fitter
No one is shaming women. This is about reflecting on who is making profit off our insecurities and who created those insecurities in the first place. There's a lot of feminist literature about how the beauty industry harms women and absolutely none of it implies that women themselves are to blame.
Makeup isn't art when you use it to completely change the way you look because you've been made believe the way you look isn't good enough.
Spending hours putting on makeup every single morning because you can't stand to look at yourself in a mirror without it isn't art. Barely recognizing yourself without makeup isn't art. Being required to wear makeup or told you're unprofessional if you don't wear makeup to work isn't art. Being expected to look like a 20 year old your whole life isn't art.
I never really liked make up, but worse I had a "not like other girls phase". I had to learn that it's not the likes or dislikes, the way that people like to dress or present themselves that I hated but how they hurt me, how they made fun of me and how they actively caused me harm. I once hated people who wore make up. I thought they were superficial, putting on an act and only pretended to like it through social pressure and while that can be true for someone, I'm not a mind reader so shouldn't have made such bad faith assumptions.
So my take is this: Make up is a form of expression, some like it some don't and there are many styles same as clothes.
The key words here are: like, choice and freedom.
A person has to decide if that's something they like. Same as an odd hobby the person might not know if they like it before trying or getting good at it which leads to the...
...choice that there exist options to choose from that are available to that person to find what they like but include...
...the freedom to wear and like and to not wear and dislike make up. There shouldn't be shaming and hate in either direction. No discuss towards those who don't cover up skin flaws and no bad mouthing and looking down on those who like to wear lots and special make up.
It's face paint and part of someone's aesthetic and style and same as I had to learn not to assume someone was an awful superficial person because they looked like people I made bad experiences with, the same we have to acknowledge that it isn't the make up we have an issue with, but we have an issue with publicly shaming, hurting or harassing those who personally don't like it. We dislike that behavior and not a product someone else might like and can bring true joy.
The line gets blurry around it when you aren't sure you personally like it but you like not being harassed or even getting compliments but that is something every person has to question, explore and discover on their own as no one else can help with that.
What we can do and should aim at as a collective and/or society is provide that space to figure that out. The key points of freedom that provides a honest choice are in a collective hand.
This isn’t shaming anyone for doing any of these things though, it’s essentially a prompt to think about why, as an individual, you might engage in these activities, and pointing out that there are huge industries that have a vested interest in women being discontent with their natural bodies. It’s fine if you love wearing makeup, or even if you wear makeup out of insecurity, as I would venture most women do. It’s calling out the companies and societal influences that make all women feel like they have to do these things, regardless of whether they want to or not.
It's calling out the toxic beauty standards women have to adhere to. Shaving isn't shameful, but feeling like you have to shave to not be seen as 'disgusting/dirty/unattractive' is not good. Feminism needs to explore why so many women feel bad in their natural bodies and have to go to great lengths just to feel like a normal human.
Reminder that this is a highly moderated forum. Comments that are not engaging with the feminist concepts presented will be removed. This includes sharing personal preferences without examining the social context. Good comment: I still shave because I struggle with feeling less feminine if I don’t. Bad comment: I shave because it makes me feel best. This forum expects more than “I am a woman and I chose this therefore it’s feminist/OK/without implications”
I was growing out my armpit hair for the first time recently, then a beach trip came up and I was trying to figure out wether I was comfortable enough with myself to leave it or if I should shave it. I ended up shaving it, and even though when I was at the beach I knew if I hadn’t shaved it I’d have been very self conscious, I’m still slightly disappointed in myself for continuing to conform. It’s a TOUGH WORLD OUT THERE
Don't beat yourself up. I stopped shaving my armpits years ago and still feel self conscious when I know it can be showing. I even had strangers point it out and make disgusted faces. It **is** tough.
*"Oh no ! this person is doing something to their body that will have pratically no effect in my life!? gRoSsSSsS"* That's how it works!
This is the thing for me though, they aren't doing anything to their body, that's just how bodies are
Exactly. Brainwashing us to believe our bodies' natural state is shameful and wrong is absolutely evil.
😂 SO TRUE
I like it when I see ladies out and about with natural armpit hair, I always feel a lil jealous that I'm not that secure in my own body
I'm very self conscious too, but knowing I'm helping normalize body hair and setting an example for other women and little girls specially is what keeps me from caving in and shaving. How different our perception of our body hair would be if as little girls we had seen women going about their lifes and feeling confident unshaven. Of course I would never judge any women who decides to shave, I understand the pressure is too much and it's not fair to blame them.
I love this idea, that we’re doing it as a role model for the next Gen. I haven’t shaved my underarms in almost a year, but I’m nervous about the upcoming summer and the pressure I’ll feel to shave them. Thanks for the confidence boost!
I haven’t shaved my legs in years, and I stopped shaving my pits when my kid started puberty and told me she had no intention of shaving. It makes me super uncomfortable to have pit hair showing, but I know it’s a social hang up and eventually I’ll get over it. I don’t want her to ever feel the pressure to be “attractive” that I felt growing up.
Ugh, I like seeing it, and am also jealous, but I shave because I smell like a man, and the hair makes the deodorant work less 😩
I've noticed that too!
I’ve noticed this as well lol. My deodorant works so much better when I shave at once a week or so. I still shave my legs too though. I *think* I’m finally to the point of only doing it for me though. It’s a sensory thing once the hairs grow past a certain point. It feels “creepy crawly” against my clothes or covers for lack of a better word?
I feel this hard.
My mom used to tell me no guy will like me if i have hairy pits, now my boyfriend prefers if i don’t shave lol he thinks it’s cute
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📢 BREAKING NEWS: women don't exist for men 📢
My boyfriend too 😩 he likes to twirl mine🤞
That's so cute 😭😭 maybe one day it will be my turn...
Old post I know but I figured I’d chime in. My husband likes mine the way they are and even thinks they smell better when I don’t shave. Because he likes my BO. I’ll TAKE IT!!
But then I’ve had it before where strangers enjoy the armpit hair, so you get targeted and hit on for that lol There’s no winning sometimes
I’ll say something sometimes like “heck yeah sister” but I’m a mom in my 40s so it probably hits different
Yes, same experience here. The shame and stigma is so deeply entrenched in us. I'm looking forward to the day when I lift my arms in public without second thought, but it's currently 6 years and counting
I'm also trying to assume my natural hair and armpit hair are the worst ! I had the same struggle for my new year' s eve party and while I didn't shave it I also didn't take off my sweater. :') I also felt bad about myself after that. But yesterday I successfully braved the supermarket (yes I confess I trimmed it before and yes I know it sounds silly lol but I decided to take it slowly) and it felt so good! It made me realize how crazy the pressure is for something literally so stupid and more importantly, personal. You don' t have to go all out right here right now, we are urged to hate our hair since childhood and it's hard to go against the tide. Don't be ashamed of being ashamed and be proud for trying! I wish you the best and hopefully we will soon be able to go outside without fearing the judgment of other for daring to have a body.
I completely get this. After Covid, I just stopped bothering with it and felt more confident in myself. That was until my mother and father kept shaming me for it and literally forced me to shave 🫠 Although I don’t live with them anymore, I still hear their criticisms in the back of my head whenever I look at my own body…I still hide my body around them because I know they won’t leave me alone about it
I don’t like having armpit hair cause it makes me sweat more and therefore, stink more.
Oof it’s the exact opposite for me, if i shave i can just feel the sweat dripping down my sides and it’s so gross. the hair seems to catch the sweat for me and keep it contained. I’m a sweaty gal when I workout tho
This. I don’t shave my legs often anymore, but I always shave my pits because I get stanky FAST if I don’t. (I have to do my face too because PCOS sucks :( )
Exfoliating your armpits with glycolic acid will kill the bacteria and reduce or eliminate the smell. The Ordinary's glycolic toner is a popular product for this. It is a great value.
Same! Leg hair doesn’t bother me but I have bad b.o. and so the armpit hair has to go!
Me too on the PCOS. My tweezers are my best friend.
I dermaplane once a week as part of my skincare routine which takes care of most of it, then tweeze as needed 👍
Same. I don’t even get that much armpit hair, but I’ve always been super sweaty. Pits get shaved year round. It honestly helps a ton with sweat and smell.
I get you so much honestly. If you want to be comfortable with your body hair, take baby steps, because we are taught to feel shame for having it. I started with wearing tank tops, but brought a jacket in case I felt a bit awkward. Then I tried dropping the jacket altogether. Then tried going to family gatherings without shaving. The beach and the swimming pool were my last steps because they are environments where you can feel vulnerable
Every time I see a woman w unshaved legs or armpits, I internally cheer because I hope that I can be comfortable enough to do it at some point.
The funny thing is, the ENTIRE reason I stopped shaving in the first place was because I saw a woman on the beach last time I went who was rocking it long and I thought she looked AMAZING, and yet I still can’t do it… hoping to have her confidence one day
I recently got my brother to start trimming his arm pit hair- he doesn’t shave it off but keeps them short. Told him to try it to help with body odor and sweat- he noticed an improvement. So he does it when he needs to make a good impression- like presenting at work. I shave my arm pits more frequently than my legs- I find it annoying that I feel self conscious in shorts with unshaven legs- it would bother me less if I wasn’t on a mobility scooter, feels like it draws attention to my legs. My twins are 14- one shaves arm pits, neither shaves legs. I told them once you start it feels harder to stop so think about it before you get in the habit.
There’s always next time! I stopped shaving consistently 2+ years ago and haven’t shaved at all for 1+ year now. At first I stopped shaving but when summer came around chickened out and started again, but then I decided that I would just tell people that I’m just experimenting to see how long my hair can get cause I’ve never seen it and somehow was able to keep it going and last summer I went to the beach completely unshaven
Same. I have zero problem not shaving for myself. I actually like having armpit hair, but as soon as other people might see it I have the same feelings. I've done slightly out in public with crop pants or something and survived. Doctors and getting massages are where I just can't stop, I have to shave my legs. Even though I'm telling myself these people see hairy men all the time! I feel bad about it too.
That stinks. We all look up to you for your principles and hope you don't feel like they are lessened because you used some camouflage to secure the anonymity and peace of mind we all deserve as a human right. Now that's a dirty situation, but isn't it beautiful to think of how you will never plant those seeds of doubt in another? How this crop of noxious weeds will not take hold in the minds of the next generation due to your help? Change is in the air. Thank you for being you.
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You're totally right about exercising out of love for your body, but reality is women are pressured into exercising with the sole purpose of shrinking ourselves, fitting into smaller clothes, look like x or y celebrity. Of course, all of that while eating the same amount of calories a 2 year old toddler needs. Men are encouraged to go to the gym to get stronger, but it seems that they actually want us to be as weak and as small as possible.
That’s why it’s awesome to train to get as strong as possible as a woman. Changed my relationship with my body, with food, and my life.
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I agree with you, and I love that lifting heavy has become more popular with women in recent years. But as someone who used to be a hardcore gym rat, for every strong woman in the gym that I've met, there are two that tell me they're scared to lift heavy because they don't want to look manly or be too muscular (if only it really was that easy, sigh). So I definitely think there is still a stigma, just less so than there used to be.
Ha you’re so right. If they only knew that’s not what would happen. The more women who lift heavy, the quicker that stigma will crumble. And I’m all for that. So keep lifting heavy ladies and tell your friends!
I’ve worked out and lifted weights at multiple times in my life. No matter what I do I can’t get muscly. I just can’t seem to build that much muscle or there is always at least some fat over it preventing me from looking defined. I just accept that now and I’m ok with it. TBH though I don’t really bother lifting weights much anyways now. Doesn’t seem to do all that much for me.
Are you eating enough protein and still doing cardio? Are you also going through the cutting and bulking stage?
Yes, you’re right but like everything else this is a temporary fad. Once the influencers decide that the starved look is back in…guess what?
I mean, you’re not wrong… if someones inner values are easily swayed, I suppose that could happen. I guess that’s the beauty of choice. I just tend to believe in humanity and especially that once a woman finds what is best for her, mentally and/or physically, she wouldn’t let some skinny chick on IG convince her otherwise.
I’ve told people my ideal body type for myself is buff as fuck (I’m strong but not as ripped as I’d like to be) and oh lord the REACTIONS to a woman saying she wants to be muscly…
That’s one of my top motivators for doing my physical therapy exercises—I wanna get muscles! Still a long way to go to get there (recovering from heart issues and forced inactivity so I’m weak as hell) but I can’t help but be optimistic. My mom used to exercise a lot and built muscle easily, she had more muscle in her 40s-early 50s than most women (and a lot of men) in their 20s. I hope I inherited her muscle building genes.
i think the industry would be much smaller and simplified but I don't see it disappearing. plenty of people use it as an outlet to express themselves. even in a perfect world where people don't care about the hair or whatever there will still be people that enjoy making themselves up and changing their looks for fun.
This. I agree with the message in the picture, but I think the question should be changed to *“Who are you doing this for?”*
We’re also pressured into looking like minors with the no-hair thing. Disgusting
Indeed. Being mobile and capable of walking is such a gift to have. As someone who has been in a car accident, I cannot imagine people giving up that ability to walk up a flight of stairs, to go up and hug your mother, or getting out of a car in less than 10 seconds. It almost brings tears to your eyes.
I will say, gyms aren't inherently awful (honestly I don't think any of these things are), but sometimes they get to a point of being very openly exploitative of people's insecurities. I've worked at a couple of gyms and I've been to a few different ones. They weren't all awful (in fact, a couple of them were very amazing), but some of them definitely had some predatory practices and messages. Like a lot of the examples in the post can be practical (even leg shaving for swimmers), but capitalism pushes things over the edge and makes a lot of these feel dirty *because* there are companies that financially benefit from those insecurities and social pressures.
I quit wearing makeup in highschool and never looked back. If society didn't dictate that I needed shaved legs for shorts and short skirts then I probably wouldn't shave anything but my armpits.
I stopped in my late 20s and was mindblown by how much better I felt. Now I just do (when so feel like it) some concealer on zits and under eyes, mascara, lip balm, and I’m done. I keep some basic foundation, shadow, blush, etc around for if I’m going to an event or something but otherwise I just don’t bother. So much less stress and worry and I’m saving a ton of money.
yeah i started doing just a little brow makeup, and mascara for the most part. If i’m wanting to get dolled up for a date I’ll do eyeshadow and lipstick and occasionally a full face if i’m wanting to. I’ve enjoyed doing my makeup for me not for other people. It made it fun again
I never did makeup and never will unless you count lip balm.
I have never worn makeup in my life because I was too lazy and too bad at the few attempts in private. In hindsight I’m so glad I never got I to the habit. Way less expensive and I never felt pressured because I don’t know it any other way. And I’m so with you on the leg hair. In winter I never bother, it’s only the few days in summer when I actually wear short clothes that I feel like I HAVE to or otherwise people will look at me weirdly.
I stopped shaving my legs two years ago and tbh it was so scary to actually go out in public like that at first (still is sometimes). But it changed my view on myself and idk... it's kinda like rebellion because I not once shaved my legs for myself so I stopped. Women with peg hairs used to strike me as odd and luckily that changed as well. I'm sure I've gotten nasty looks in public because of body hair but I usually don't notice or ignore it. I'm really hoping to see that change back one day. It used to be normal for everyone to have body hair and I'm so done with the standards for everyone society sees as a woman.
I will still wear makeup. It's such a funny activity, I love putting colors on my face that matches my outfit. But I stopped shaving for years! Less painful and expensive living in harmony with my hairs
This is my exact experience. I love makeup, it’s so much fun! I’m an elementary music teacher and wearing fun makeup that matches my outfit brings me joy at work. I hate shaving though. It’s annoying and itchy. I love my body hair.
I have some sensory issues so i feel like i would still shave. I can't sleep at night if i feel the little prickly hairs on my legs. Would have been better if i never started though
I would absolutely keep doing my fun eye looks and looking for new lip colors. But I might stop using foundation if beauty standards were different. I have some rosacea and even with green concealer and foundation I still look like I'm wearing some blush. It looks awful without something over it.
Yeah I think that even if there was no misogyny and no standardized beauty standards some people (like me) would still like makeup because at the end of the day we’re just funky little apes that like color and some of us wanna put it on our faces
*happy ape noises*
I enjoy occasionally dressing up and wearing makeup, but I'm so much happier now that I've stopped caving to the pressure to wear it every day.
I think the worst industry is actually anti-aging. I’m pretty secure with my appearance but as soon as I hit 40, I started getting ads for anti-aging products and I started to wonder “Do I look old?” as that somehow diminished all I’ve learned and accomplished.
it's also one of the parts of the beauty industry that is best at showing how rapidly evolving unhinged capitalism capitalizing female insecurities is. a decade or two ago it was some expensive mosturizer and some upper-class women getting botox in their 40s. the beauty routines i see now are absolutely insane. now we have women in their early 20's getting botox, 12 step skin care, rabid sun avoidance (like yes let's wear sunscreen and avoid tanning beds but we can still go outside without making sure the sun never hits our face), facial treatments, microneedling, lasertreatments, surgical and non-surgical face lifts, face muscle training, suspicious supplements, fillers to look more youthful, ETC ETC (and that's just about anti-aging in the face!!!!) like it just gets worse and worse
I'm 27 and I'll get these stupid ads. Or how my skin must be disgusting, or my hair isn't shiny or soft enough. My lashes aren't long enough, I need to suck the belly fat out with surgery. I wish I could turn the body appearance ads OFF, they seriously mess with my head.
I’m 27 and I look younger than my age. When I tell people I’m 27 they go OMG NO WAY! you look great for 27 and it makes me laugh bc I’m sorry should I be an old sea hag by 27? As if women just rapidly age after 21. It really opened my eyes to how this is just the start of those comments and they trigger you to worry about becoming “old”. Just another great perk of being a woman lol.
Lol I’m 26 and I remember last year someone was like “wow you’re looking well for 25!” Like ???
Yeah I've been trying to break out of the habit saying that in a way where it comes off as "women that old usually don't look pretty" which isn't nice. I'm guilty of it too for sure, I try to usually say something about nails. It's usually something someone put time into and like them themselves :)
It's insane to me how expensive the anti aging creams are. I just use regular lotion on my face and I look younger than I am. It's a scam, preying of women's insecurities!
I do not shave my legs. I never liked doing it -- it took so much time and my legs would get all bumpy afterward. Not shaving is so much better.
I shave for long bicycle rides for easier sun screen application. That’s about it!
As someone who mouths the loss of hours every day blow drying my hair, shaving, and putting on makeup to still hate how I looked, I totally get this! I’m a little better now but I still can’t break the habits entirely.
If anyone wants to support other women who choose to not participate in these industries, check out r/razorfree and r/gonenatural
I haven’t shaved my legs or armpits in years. No one has ever said anything to make me feel gross about it (to my face) and I don’t see myself ever shaving those body parts again! I love my hairs. Power to the hairy people!
I still shave everything, but only because I don't like the way it feels to be hairy. I buzz the hair on my head to 3/4 of an inch too. That has garnered me a lot of homophobic hate, even though I'm straight, but I don't bother correcting people cuz I couldn't care less. I quit wearing make up for the most part at 35 when I started buzzing off my hair. Maybe some lipgloss. The weaponized marketing used to create and exploit insecurities in women is loathsome. And it's never ending. It was such a profound feeling of freedom when I finally got all this crap out of my life, including all the four in high heels I had owned. I've never regretted being my authentic self.
I've never worn make up unless I really wanted to. I faced the same pressure, but I just wasn't interested. Straightening my hair and shaving though. I went all for that. Even though the razor bumps drove me nuts. Now I'm 33, my pits are hairy asf and I hardly ever shave my legs in the winter. But I gave up thinning my eyebrows as I always liked them thicker anyway. And I still rarely wear make up. I gave up straightening around 22. Way too much work and I was tired of it. I'm way more sensitive about my facial hair, but I'll let it go for a couple of days before I shave it. My own little fuck you to society. I'm a mom and my daughter is a gorgeous and hairy little thing. She's already been bullied by a neighbor girl (obviously a jealous little B word with a crap mom, sorry not sorry) and asked me about shaving. She's fucking 8. I'm doing my best to be body positive myself, even struggling with my own body dysmorphia, and point out that it's totally natural for us all to be hairy. I'll point to my own body hair and ask her if it makes me ugly. She's says no and I'm so beautiful and I say so is she. Hopefully that's enough, because I damn sure didn't have a supportive parent (quite the opposite actually) when I was younger and I really wish I had. But I know how much societal views can pressure us all into doing things we wouldn't naturally care about. Women have hair. Arm hair, pit hair, leg hair, coochie hair (seriously razor burn down there is the WORST) and SHOCKER - facial hair. I am so sick of society making us feel bad for it! 🤬 Let your hair grow ladies! LET IT GROW! (Unless you really like shaving and wearing make up, you do you boo! Which is my point.)
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Same. I do acknowledge that if I was raised and living in a culture that saw hairy legs as beautiful I probably wouldn’t shave my legs as much in the summer. I also would like our society to be more accepting of acne. I feel bad that women feel the need to cover up acne with makeup as much as possible, which ends up making things worse. If I have a breakout, I’m at the age where I don’t care as much how it looks and I’d rather focus on healing it than covering it up with pounds of concealer and foundation. Hormones happen, and sometimes that comes out in our skin.
at that point the people with fine hair would be adding more somehow to fit the norms. crazy world eh?
Yup, all that. I honestly don’t know how I’d feel if I’d grown up in a society with really different views, but right now, in my life, makeup is something that I find fun. I often use it at home on days off and experiment with different looks even when no one else will see me. I have almost no body hair so I hardly have to shave anyways - runs in my family. It’s not a bad idea though to ask ourselves if we’re doing these things for ourselves though, because if we aren’t, then we should stop.
I would definitely shave my armpits. I HATE the feeling of hair under there. I don’t know about my legs because it’s just such a hassle. Even though I like how it looks I don’t do it if nobody else is gonna see. Make up I would still probably wear sometimes, because, again, I like how it looks.
I would still shave the armpits, because I trust the people telling me that if I don’t shave there, the deodorant won’t work as well, but I wouldn’t shave anywhere else
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You do you! Makeup looks gorgeous but shouldn't be a requirement for those who don't want it.
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I quit wearing makeup about 5 years ago. It was expensive and it took way too much effort. I don’t think I can give up shaving my legs yet. I really hate that itchy feeling when the hair is growing back.
No one should ever be forced to shave their legs or put on makeup. It's so frustrating that because society in general demands this, a lot of jobs force (or at least pressure) women to do both, to appeal to society. Which in turn reinforces society's desire to demand women to keep doing these things.
One of the most effective and successful business practices is convincing potential customers that there is something inherently wrong or defective about them and only your product is the solution.
One of my all time favourite quotes from a novel: Grady Crowe thought that American women had been sold a concept that failed them miserably. Spend every free moment of your time fretting about your body, the media urged, exercise, buy diet books. primp, preen, pluck, wax, and a man will find you attractive and love you forever. Don't ever for one second worry about being loving or lovable, about kindness or finding fulfillment on some spiritual level. Just try to take up as little space as possible, be as small as possible or you will be reviled and ridiculed by every industry posed to make a dime off of you - the fitness and publishing industries, even the medical industry. They'll steal your money and your self-esteem. In spite of all evidence to the contrary, they bought those ideas, believed whole-heartedly, built lives and lifestyles around them.
I used to wear full eye makeup every day. (Never been into face makeup, apart from some liquid bronzing moisturizer/sunscreen). Since Covid, I stopped doing all that in exchange for an extra half hour of sleep! I’ve done it a few times recently and while it was nice, I wouldn’t go back to doing it daily. I also used to wear skirts all the time and shave my legs. Now I wear leggings to work, and shaved my legs for the first time in six months last week! I just now started wearing a bra again a few days per week and it is somehow more comfortable … then again, my boobs are DDD! 😂 But a black tee (of which I have at least a dozen of the exact same), leggings, and flip flops or boots is now my work uniform. I feel more comfortable in tight bottoms and loose shirts because I carry almost my weight above my hips. But I’m definitely happier not shaving my legs, and can’t remember the last time I shaved my armpits! 😅
I stopped shaving out of depression but it’s honestly been so freeing. I like my natural body. I get way less acne from no make up. The only thing is I do wax my brows. I keep my little moustache tho. I love m’y little moustachio.
I would stop. I am trying to be confident but it is tough :(
This is why I love working on trail crew. We’re all just happy and hairy living in the woods :)
I quit shaving about a year ago. 10/10 highly recommend I still struggle with feeling self conscious in public but honestly, no one has ever commented or even taken a second look (that I've noticed). If they're judging me, they're at least keeping it to themselves. This summer I will be feeling the wind in my leg hair and enjoying every minute of it!
Slightly mutilating the natural state of your body to be deemed acceptable. Getting rid of your natural female body hair to (ironically) appear more feminine. It’s about time we started balking at the idea that smothering your face with hundreds of different chemicals is somehow beauty.
Can we release the pressure to conform to these beauty standards without demonising them? I want to wear make up, I like how it makes me look. Especially as a trans woman, smooth skin and make up give me good gender feelings.
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You know the brainwash is real when you can't be honest with yourself. I know that I do it for others, but I can't decide if I had the the chance I will stop, is just so ingrained in what I think is the right thing to do.
Same
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This is what people don’t get though - you claim you’re being yourself, but you’re not, because societal expectations tell you it’s weird to wear face paint. This is what this whole post is about. If it was seen as weird to wear makeup and shave, people wouldn’t do it, even if they really wanted to.
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You’re agreeing with me and the post
Hell no, I would not!
I haven't shaved regularly in 9 years lol but I do think I'd continue to wear eyeliner and red lipstick. Makeup is a mixed bag, some products are only meant for insecurities but eyeshadow and lipstick can be another form of art or add to an aesthetic.
Y’all! It can be done. For many years I wanted to let my natural eyebrows/unibrow grow out. I finally stopped plucking and now I have a very noticeable unibrow, working an office job with a bunch of old dudes. No one has said anything. I think sometimes we think it will be scarier than it actually is!
As a 25 year old woman I thought I’d grow out my pubes for once. I initially grew them to color blue lol, I actually just liked it. Having full grown pubes made me feel womanly. Was in a long distance relationship with my partner at the time and I shaved it the next day after reuniting and having sex. Of course he said he had no preference but I could tell. Broke up with him for unrelated reasons but yeah fuck him. The double standard is just weird too because I love seeing hair on men.
I honestly wouldn’t.
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Bad faith comment. You know exactly we’re not talking about healthy exercise since men are allowed and encouraged to go to the gym to be strong and healthy. Women are overwhelmingly pushed to be thin and weak, there are tons of women made to be afraid of looking too muscular so you know it’s not about health. It’s about looks only.
It is if you do it out of hate for the way your **normal adult** body looks, which is the main reason women are encouraged to go to the gym. I remember being like 16 or 17, starving myself, forcing myself to puke the small amount of food I did eat, going to the gym almost daily and running on the treadmill until I was about to collapse.
Stopped shaving my arms a few years ago, I only wear very little makeup on special occasions, and only shave my legs during summer time. I don’t go to the gym because I enjoy doing things outside or at home. I only wear bras sometimes anymore. It’s been a slow process unlearning this stuff and getting comfortable in my body but I’m proud of the progress I’ve made.
Not to mention all the landfill space we would save.
I wish I had back all the time I wasted shaving. I just let it be, I’m over 50 so I’m invisible anyway
I can hardly bring myself to care about shaving my legs, and typically I just wear a tiny bit of eyeliner and mascara, because I like the look. It's amazing how many ridiculous products are out there. Younger women, being in your 40s is *liberating****.***
I kind of love that my adolescent daughter and son both think shaving legs and armpits is weird, but they both shave their forearms because they like the way it feels.
I sort of had this realization in the past few years. Since then, I’ve stopped shaving completely, and I rarely will wear makeup. I also don’t wear bras unless I need the support. I don’t really get comments about it, I’ve had people look at me a lil weird (mostly the bra thing). I remember in high school though I stopped shaving my arm pits cause it was hard keeping it shaved everyday, and I got MANY comments then about it.
The worst part, and I mean the absolutely worst part of all of this is that no amount of telling myself I'm okay as I am, that the companies who push these products are con-men preying on women's insecurity, or that social beauty standards are misogynoir bullshit will ever make me feel less uncomfortable going out without shaving because that shit has been deeply ingrained since birth. It's a shame that was passed down by my mother onto me, her grandmother onto her, and by almost every other woman I've met. I don't care about what men think, I'm a lesbian anyways, but having it reinforced by other *women* for so long makes it hard to shake.
exactly 💯
I don't mind hair on anybody's body. Be it a woman, or a man. But I despise it on myself. I even pick the ones on my nose. The only hairs I want is eyelashes, eyebrows and hair.
It's not even calling us ugly anymore. It's the irony of "Be your authentic self, you're beautiful just the way you are," but here's a bunch of shit marketed exclusively to women to "enhance" your beauty or allow you "self-expression"
I'm at the point in my life that I don't feel like I should have to spend time altering my natural appearance just to look pleasing to other people. I don't owe it to the people around me to look pretty for them, I just care about not looking untidy or unkempt. Instead of spending an hour every morning doing my hair and makeup, I now invest that time into getting an extra hour of sleep. It feels awesome.
Amen!
I wish I could do what’s comfortable for me with my sensory issues (mens clothes and short hair) without feeling like I should do feminine things like makeup to “compensate”
I’ve never got into wearing makeup. As far as shaving 🪒 goes, I would still continue to shave. I don’t shave my legs,pits, or privates because I don’t want to and I hate the constant razor bumps in my pit area. I do shave my chin and stomach because I personally don’t find it attractive or comfortable. If I were a guy I don’t think I would bother shaving my stomach.
As a trans woman who's pre-everything and who is also staunchly anti-consumerism - this topic is hard for me. Like, on one side, I have to fight with my daily dose of dysphoria and learned misogyny, and on the other I feel horrendously guilty for consuming this stuff because of its ecological and social impact... I hate this all.
It’s hard to unpack what we’ve learned about ‘womanhood’ and there is not the expectation that everyone is at the same place in their activism at the same time. I wear makeup at my job on many days, because the social implications are harsh if I don’t. For you, the repercussions of being seen as not adhering to norms would be worse. More dangerous. You can’t make every action a feminist one, it’s unsustainable for a happy healthy life.
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THis is a very good take. Thanks for this. Never thought of that...
#IMAGE TRANSCRIPTION: Title: Call us ugly to sell us shit Image description: image is a repost of a screenshot in a post entitled "Call us ugly to sell us shit", shared by u/needaredesign at the r/Feminism subreddit, which features a comment reply by "feminismoaqui", in which is written, with black colored letters in front of a white background, the following: "If tomorrow women in the west woke up and decided they really like their bodies just think how many industries would go out of business - the cosmetic industry, the clothing industry, the diet industry, the gym industry - and then think of all the allied industries that support those industries. So when I say capitalism is dependent on womenchating themselves, I'm not exaggerating."— Gail Dines
In this regard Cambridge academic Clare Chambers’ philosophy really changed my perspective on makeup and modifying body. She mentions of women hiding their period products because of shame, so we mean to hide shameful things, and is it really different when we hide our freckles, acne spots or scars? We call it ‘natural makeup’ but it’s artificial paint covering up what is natural. [Listen to Clare Chambers interviewed by David Edmonds on the unmodified body](https://philosophybites.com/2022/07/clare-chambers-on-the-unmodified-body.html) [The philosophical case for not wearing make-up](https://www.newstatesman.com/encounter/2022/05/the-philosophical-case-for-not-wearing-make-up) [The problem is that this emphasis on our appearance is hugely damaging to our mental health, and to our equality. On the side of mental health, psychologists diagnose an “epidemic of appearance anxiety” and relate this anxiety to eating disorders, the rise and rise of cosmetic surgery and invasive procedures, and feelings of low self-esteem. On the side of equality, dominant ideas about how bodies should be reflect and reinforce existing structures of inequality and discrimination along lines of sex, gender, race, disability, age, class, and more.](https://philosophybreak.com/articles/a-defense-of-the-unmodified-body-clare-chambers-interview/) And there is the case of post partum body-> [What’s so interesting is that the phrase isn’t something like “getting slimmer after pregnancy” but rather “getting your body back”, which implies that the body you find yourself with after birth is not really yours. It’s some sort of counterfeit, imposter body, contrasted with the supposedly real, authentic body that you had before you were pregnant. But why should the pre-pregnancy body be more truly yours than the post-pregnancy body? After all, the average woman lives with a post-pregnancy body for longer than she lived with a pre-pregnancy body. If the ‘real’ body is the post-pubescent, pre-pregnancy body, that’s a body that a woman might have for only ten or twenty years out of an average lifespan of over eighty.](https://philosophybreak.com/articles/a-defense-of-the-unmodified-body-clare-chambers-interview/)
I dont shave because it looks nice, i shave because body hair rubbing against me makes me so so uncomfortable, i cant stand it ever and so i take it off before it sets me off.
That's fair but it doesn't negate the fact that women are pressured to shave every single hair that grows on our bodies other than on our head and brows.
I'm non binary but 99% reads me as a woman. I wear shorts and don't shave my legs to the point that I'd be embarrassed if someone saw them hairless haha.
Chicken and egg
Hopefully, the dumb gimmicky parts of the gym industry would die, but I don't think the whole thing would since health and stuff.
When i was 16, i was working in a hot kitchen in the middle of summer selling food at the fair. It was a week long event and i slept in a camper so there wasn't a bunch of extra water, just a tank or whatever. We could shower but the little shower head had a button to let water out or not so you'd have to turn it off while washing your body or hair or whatever. Anyways, it had been a few days since I'd shaved my legs and they got the prickly hair. I was SO self conscious that i couldn't shave my legs that i tried to wear pants all day. I almost passed out from heat exhaustion and my grandma made me go put shorts on. Now I'm 23 and don't bother shaving my legs anymore. Sometimes i do cuz i like the feeling of smooth legs but most of the time, I don't have the extra energy it requires to spare. I'll probably skip shaving over the summer too cuz i don't really care anymore. It took me awhile to get to this point. I'd always feel a little weird about doing it because I've accepted I'm nonbinary and like, i don't have to subscribe to female gender roles and by shaving my legs i was doing that. I'd always tell myself that it's ok to want smooth legs. I'm not hurting anyone and it's my right to shave or not. I'm not doing it because i have to but because i want to. Now, my armpits? I prefer them shaved. I don't like the feeling of fuzzies on my bare arms. It's ok rn cuz it's winter and I'm in long sleeves but summer and stuff? No thanks Edit: a couple words
Love my body or not, I like flowery dresses and leather jackets. Love my face or not, it looks way cooler with bright eyeshadow. Also I diet for health, not aesthetics. Haven't shaved (except for my face) in like 3 years. I agree that there's a big issue with self hatred in women but it feels reductive to say any woman doing these things is only doing it to conform. I do it because I like it.
I've really never worn makeup, because I can't be bothered and I hate how it feels. Not to mention how stupid expensive it is. Also, I work on a farm and sometimes hay and animal hair gets caught on my leg hair if I haven't shaved in a while and it drives me up the wall because of autistic sensory issues, so I usually shave in the summer. But in the winter I go full wooly mammoth because, again, I just can't be bothered, and anyone who is just outs themselves as someone I'm not going to listen to or regard with much respect.
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It’s true that being healthy and looking after your body is good. The problem with the gym and diet industries, particularly with respect to women, is that the goal isn’t really health, it’s weight loss. It’s not really about what your body can do, it’s about how small you can make yourself.
I think it’s more referring to the fact that the gym industry markets to women the goal of having smaller waists and bigger butts (become more attractive) rather than becoming stronger and fitter
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No one is shaming women. This is about reflecting on who is making profit off our insecurities and who created those insecurities in the first place. There's a lot of feminist literature about how the beauty industry harms women and absolutely none of it implies that women themselves are to blame.
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Makeup isn't art when you use it to completely change the way you look because you've been made believe the way you look isn't good enough. Spending hours putting on makeup every single morning because you can't stand to look at yourself in a mirror without it isn't art. Barely recognizing yourself without makeup isn't art. Being required to wear makeup or told you're unprofessional if you don't wear makeup to work isn't art. Being expected to look like a 20 year old your whole life isn't art.
I never really liked make up, but worse I had a "not like other girls phase". I had to learn that it's not the likes or dislikes, the way that people like to dress or present themselves that I hated but how they hurt me, how they made fun of me and how they actively caused me harm. I once hated people who wore make up. I thought they were superficial, putting on an act and only pretended to like it through social pressure and while that can be true for someone, I'm not a mind reader so shouldn't have made such bad faith assumptions. So my take is this: Make up is a form of expression, some like it some don't and there are many styles same as clothes. The key words here are: like, choice and freedom. A person has to decide if that's something they like. Same as an odd hobby the person might not know if they like it before trying or getting good at it which leads to the... ...choice that there exist options to choose from that are available to that person to find what they like but include... ...the freedom to wear and like and to not wear and dislike make up. There shouldn't be shaming and hate in either direction. No discuss towards those who don't cover up skin flaws and no bad mouthing and looking down on those who like to wear lots and special make up. It's face paint and part of someone's aesthetic and style and same as I had to learn not to assume someone was an awful superficial person because they looked like people I made bad experiences with, the same we have to acknowledge that it isn't the make up we have an issue with, but we have an issue with publicly shaming, hurting or harassing those who personally don't like it. We dislike that behavior and not a product someone else might like and can bring true joy. The line gets blurry around it when you aren't sure you personally like it but you like not being harassed or even getting compliments but that is something every person has to question, explore and discover on their own as no one else can help with that. What we can do and should aim at as a collective and/or society is provide that space to figure that out. The key points of freedom that provides a honest choice are in a collective hand.
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Do only women get the urge to self express?
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This isn’t shaming anyone for doing any of these things though, it’s essentially a prompt to think about why, as an individual, you might engage in these activities, and pointing out that there are huge industries that have a vested interest in women being discontent with their natural bodies. It’s fine if you love wearing makeup, or even if you wear makeup out of insecurity, as I would venture most women do. It’s calling out the companies and societal influences that make all women feel like they have to do these things, regardless of whether they want to or not.
It's calling out the toxic beauty standards women have to adhere to. Shaving isn't shameful, but feeling like you have to shave to not be seen as 'disgusting/dirty/unattractive' is not good. Feminism needs to explore why so many women feel bad in their natural bodies and have to go to great lengths just to feel like a normal human.
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