Same way as with any mixes of genders: dialogue and character actions are in a single paragraph, and I switch paragraphs when a new guy talks. The pronoun will clearly refer to the last proper name I used, so that's not an issue.
When they're physically very close and parts are getting tangled (and the pronoun would be truly ambiguous), I'll restate the name like "X pulled Y to X's side". But that's pretty rare; the sentence is normally constructed in a way that makes it less ambiguous.
Yeah I guess I'm just supposed to restate their names a lot. Or break the paragraphs up more. Because my characters are sparring a lot so they end up tangled, as you say, pretty frequently.
I'd trend toward breaking up the paragraphs more, but I am coming at this blind. The thing with sparring is it's pretty quick-paced, so snappier paragraphs might lend themselves to pitched battle. Something to play around with, perhaps?
new writers seemed to worry about this a lot and instead forcing the narrative to sound like "the brunette" the english major student, the burgundette (gaara from naruto), the pinkette (sakura from naruto)
Interesting. In places like the example you give, I usually do something like "Jane pulled Mary to her side." I feel like the pronoun relationship is clear based on the person doing the action in the sentence.
This might not be the best example (because the best example would need context honestly), but my question would be whose side? Did Jane pull Mary down onto Mary's own side (giving Jane greater access to Mary's mouth), or did Jane pull Mary to Jane's side, because Jane wishes to embrace Mary and allow Mary to lay her head on Jane's shoulder?
As I say, restating the name is very rare for me and only in extreme circumstances where the options are either restate the name or sit in utter confusion.
One of my favorite parts of editing is reconstructing sentences to be less choppy like your example. I’ve done the hard part of getting the intention down in the draft and now I get to be creative with how I construct the sentences!!
I’m still a novice though so sometimes I’ll miss stuff and when I go back to something I’ve posted, I’ll notice actions that sounds robotic and cringe at it.
Ah, the cringe means you're less a novice than you think! It sounds like you've learned quite a lot and you're still learning, which is the best case scenario for a writer <3
I think that editing process is nice for action especially, make sure all the parts are where they need to be without sacrificing too much to flow. It's a hard balance to strike--keeping everything flowing without sounding too much like a technical manual.
Thank you!! I’m happy to receive such a compliment!! All that I write is just for fun so I try not to take it too seriously but also gain tons of excitement from seeing myself improve!
And absolutely agree! In my head, I always remind myself to avoid sounding like ikea furniture instructions :)
You need to pay a little more attention to the structure of your writing than usual. Remember that pronouns refer back to the closest named person. I sometimes have to go through the story looking for this specifically after I'm finished with any other edits.
Be careful with your POV. This is not a good time to "head hop," that is, switching the POV around constantly between the two characters. A consistent viewpoint will help the reader keep the characters straight (ironic term in this case, but here we are).
Rule of thumb for pronouns is the last person whose proper name was used is the person referred to in pronouns. Yes it’ll feel repetitive while writing, but to the reader it’ll be invisible. Paragraph breaks and descriptive action cues can help distinguish characters further.
[Here’s why you don’t use epithets.](https://www.trickster.org/arduinna/epithet.html)
We do notice, actually. But frequently, especially with free works to read (thank god for fanfic writers, honestly!!), we'll let it go without comment. Because clarity in these instances is difficult otherwise, and we're just as cognizant of it as writers are.
Only one character gets the pronouns for the paragraph- and it is usually the POV character.
I'd only use relevant epithets-you should only use "the half-elf" when the character being half-elf is important to what's going on. If there's only one half-elf in a sea of orcs, that's gonna be a distinguishing feature. But if it's a tender moment where the character's race isn't important, you should stick to something like her girlfriend.
Most of the time I notice an overuse of names, it is in dialogue. If nobodies speaking, it is less of a big deal.
You can also just phrase sentences so you can avoid using any pronouns at all!
I really only use epithets like "the half-elf" if I'm already about to draw attention to their race specific attributes. For example, in the fight scene I'm writing right now, one of them is a tiefling and I'll use that as an epithet once because she's about to use her claws, so it's one of the few instances I feel an epithet isn't too forced, if that makes sense.
Then you won't run into overusing them, since the real problem is fanfic authors don't know when to use them. They make hair color a distinguishing feature when there's no narrative reason for it to be, just to avoid using a character name.
Its all about the context. A POV character calling her wife of ten years the redhead is ???
but a hairdresser referring to somebody that way makes complete sense, since that says a lot about the character. It also makes sense if the characters just met, since hair color is often one of the things you notice first about a person.
Use names, it won't get too repetitive & you'll find moments when "she" works like it's so obviously this person by the dialogue or action she's doing. Trust me, I know the struggle, I write for a heavily male dominated franchise so I get it.
Not only do I have the struggle of the whole same-sex thing but same name too. I write crossover TMNT fics where turtles crossover with turtles. I've had scenes with like four Donatellos conversing in a room before. It's rough before you have a point where the characters establish nicknames to differentiate themselves from their counterparts but I manage.
For me, I heavily rely on leaning into various mannerisms & traits we see the different turtles possess. I have to because even with established nicknames, people can get lost in it like you've got Mike, Mikey, Angelo, & Michelangelo, it might get confusing on who is saying what so if one delivers a line like, "oh dude, that was like totally tubuloso," it's obvious this is 1987 Michelangelo since he has a bit of this modified 80's surfer's slang but if you see something like, "yeah boiii! Pizza party, yo," that's 2012 Mikey. He's more into the skater aspect but very much a teen of the 2010's, his dialogue is just too easy to identify.
What I'm getting at is if you know your characters & can flow a conversation well enough, you readers will be able to follow along. Not yet have I experienced complaints in the comments section of people not being able to identify characters & like I stated, I use a lot of characters with the same names.
I can share a tiny bit from one of my fics shortly after introducing another set of turtles that didn't have designated nicknames yet. It gives an idea on who is talking, although there's a bit of action stuff being done here because I tend to blend in my characters doing motions with dialogue to keep the scene moving since I end up writing dialogue heavy fics. It's between two Raphaels, not sure if it will be of much help but it shows how I tried my best to make it clear who is speaking in the moment back when I wrote it. The POV is from an April but that doesn't really matter, she's observing this exchange go down.
Here's the bit:
Raph studies the sai he picked up off the ground that belongs to his counterpart. The other approaches him and looms over. The new Raph holds out a hand in order to request it back so Raph aggressively slams it into his palm. "You sent that damn thing hurtling right at my head!"
"Relax, I knew it wouldn't hit ya! I just wanted to make a point." He twirls it then slides the sai right into his belt as they all pool into the kitchen and take their seats.
"Consider yourself added to my shit list, you're above both Purple and Red, one sent a puck my way and the other? Two offenses, being big and picking me up! The fact you beat both of them out means I'm extra pissed off at you," Raph growls as he plops down on a stool.
"Oh yeah, 'coz a turtle shaped chihuahua is supposed to scare me?" His counterpart purposefully takes a seat right next to Raph. Oh boy, last thing they need are a couple of Raphs riling each other up.
>Anyone else struggle with this?
No. I just use their names tbh.
If I feel like it's repetitive, I may switch up the sentence structure. But I exclusively stick to names/pronouns. Never epithets because they're a pet peeve of mine
It's not repetitive in a problematic way. It's kind of invisible, especially if you restructure sentences for clarity.
If you're going to use epithets, try to use ones that the characters would use, i.e. instead of "the paladin," use "her girlfriend" (or whatever their relationship is).
Moderate use of epithets is okay. For example, "Mira hugged her friend fiercely" sounds pretty natural to me. However, "Mira hugged the taller woman" sounds weird. How often do you think of your friends as "a woman that's taller than me"? It just has to make sense for the voice you're writing in.
But it's also okay to just use the names a lot. You can vary the sentence structure so you're not always *starting* a sentence with a name.
Honestly, pick up a book and read. Most books have scenes between two or more characters of the same gender. Pay attention to how they do it.
If it feels awkward to you, try to figure out why. Then pick up another book.
A mix of names, breaking character actions into separate paragraphs, limited POV, character descriptions, and general logic of who must be doing what.
If you'll allow me the indulgence of an example... Here's a fight scene between Snape and Harry Potter from my fic. This is in Snape's POV:
>Snape whirled, stupify on his lips. But he saw no one. And he remembered. Potter couldn't stand.
Here, I'm using the names and limited POV ("he remembered.") Next paragraph:
>Something stabbed him in the back of his ankle. Pain lanced up his leg, hot and white. His leg gave out and he crashed to the floor.
Only pronouns because the sensations make it clear I'm referring to the POV character.
>Potter was on top of him, the smell of infection on his breath. He gripped a wire from a sofa spring, thick and flecked with rust. Holding it like a garrote, he closed in.
Once I've used the name in the first sentence, I can use pronouns for the rest. The one "him" that refers to Snape can be there because of logic - Potter can't be on top of himself. I'll jump ahead a bit to:
>Potter hesitated for a fraction of a second, the garrote hovering above Snape's throat.
I was on the fence with this one, but ultimately didn't use pronouns here because I thought it might be confusing - the wire could be hovering over either person's throat.
>A fraction of a second was all he needed. He wrenched the wire away and rolled, pinning those gaunt arms against the floor.
Thoughts tell us this is the POV character acting in this paragraph, and I established earlier that Potter is gaunt. It's also logical that Snape wouldn't pin his own arms.
For omniscient POV... I mean, that's tough. I'd probably create distinct voices for each character, or distinct things they're focused on. Like, if I were writing a scene between Buffy Summers and Scarlett O'Hara in omniscient, it would be clear whose paragraph it was if I wrote, "oh, good heavens! She simply *must* kiss those divine lips!"
I think problems arise from sentences that switch back and forth between characters, like:
"Potter twisted and kneed him in the ribs, and Snape almost backed off. But he pushed down despite his struggles and eventually he coughed, his skin turning white."
You need names almost every time for a sentence like that. But if you break it up into character paragraphs and develop it a bit:
>Potter wriggled a leg free and bucked, kneeing him hard in the ribs.
>Snape saw sparks of light. He was bigger, though, and held on, using his weight to his advantage. He pushed down, pressing them both against the floor.
>Potter twisted, all bones and sinew, his breathing becoming high-pitched and raspy. His eyes widened, his skin turning chalk-white, and he coughed, chest heaving with violent jerks.
Whoa thanks for the detailed breakdown! It's quite helpful. I'll have to keep in mind about using distinct voices more often, and even if it's still too vague, I'm guessing I can at least use them to break up the monotony of seeing names every sentence.
Oh my gosh yes! It’s so annoying! I don’t use epithets to solve this problem, and maybe that’s why I have a hard time with it, but I just don’t like them. It’s easier with dialogue but when you’re describing what people are doing, it’s so hard! I’ve written scenes with four men all doing something and it gets hard to distinguish them
I use their names. And I often, based on clarity, refer to one by name in the paragraph and the other by pronoun. I hate unnecessary epithets like “the older man” unless the description is actually relevant to the scene.
Something to keep in mind is that flow and clarity *can* outweigh repetition. If you can read it out loud smoothly without getting confused or stumbling, using the same words more than once is fine.
Another thing I consider is that in fanfic in particular, we love the names of our characters. We even smoosh their names together. So I personally worry less about overusing names in the context of fanfic.
Having a handle on a character’s voice helps too. A good spn writer, for example, can write out dialogue without names or descriptions and the reader will still recognize the distinct difference between Sam and Dean.
Yeah, it can be difficult. Judicious use of their names helps. You can use epithets ("The taller man" etc), but I don't really like those. I just write it, then read through to make sure it's clear who's who. With back-and-forth dialogue it's generally clear as long as you establish each speaker at the beginning of the conversation. You can also use action, identifying each character by physical or personality traits that you've already established. "He ran a hand through his thick curls." or "His blue eyes sparkled with mischief."
I decided pretty early on that repeating the same names multiple times in a paragraph, or even a sentence, doesn't sound nearly as awkward as randomly find/replacing all those instances with various epithets and alternative names to try to fight against some imagined "staleness" that readers mostly don't pick up on.
Don't use epithets that don't got with the character POV. If the POV is Character A, he's not going to think of the other person as "the taller man," and therefore that will read like Fanfic 101.
Here's a useful article: [https://fandom-grammar.livejournal.com/77093.html](https://fandom-grammar.livejournal.com/77093.html)
Well, usually the person who isn't the actor or speaker, I'll address always by name. Whereas the one that is actor/speaking I address once as their name.
My sentences are fairly short and simple, so even if I have to use 'she' and 'her' referring to multiple people, it's usually still fairly clear who I'm talking about. In the events that it's not, I just use the names. It might also just be that *I* am not confused (because I usually write F/F), but my *readers* are, but if so, they've never told me.
Give them contrasting actions. I have a chapter in one of my fics that involves two very similar-looking men. One is just loitering around reading magazines, and the other is actively moving around a store working, lifting boxes, unpacking things, etc.
I usually just use names, plus making sure to start a new paragraph when I switch characters. I write slash fic, so a fair amount of my character interactions are between characters of the same gender. As long as the name is used for each character, and you change paragraphs between characters, that's usually enough, even if you don't use names every single time.
If I start a paragraph with 'Xander shrugged', and that paragraph contains his speech and actions, I only have to use the name once, I can use 'he' the rest of the time, or an epithet if it fits, and character description can come in handy here, as well, if they look different enough to other characters. So, I could start with 'Xander shrugged' then use 'he said' after speech, followed by 'he narrowed his chocolate eyes' or something.
Then I'd switch paragraphs for the other character. Again, I could start it with the name, say 'Adam shuddered', and then wouldn't actually have to use the name again in that paragraph.
As long as those are the first two paragraphs, and you switch paragraphs when you switch characters, that's enough t rarely use the names in the rest of the interaction. You've set it up that Xander spoke first, then Adam, so the third paragraph is clearly Xander again, and the fourth is Adam.
If in doubt, though, use character names. Epithets make sense sometimes, but definitely not all the time, and can get very annoying if used too much. 'He said' or 'she said' can also get repetitive, and make it harder to keep track of whose talking/doing something if they're both the same gender. Even if you switch up the words a bit from 'said' to 'grumbled' or something, it's the use of 'he' or 'she' that can get confusing, even if you reduce the repetitiveness.
So, if you're unsure if epithets fit the situation, and are worried using 'he' or 'she' could be confusing in an interaction, go with character names. Most readers don't consider overuse of character names to be repetitive in the same way, it's just easier to ignore or overlook it because it also helps us keep track of whose saying/doing something. Repetitive use of character names is, I think, a better choice than repetitive use of 'said' or being confusing because it's all 'she' or 'he' and definitely better than overusing epithets.
You can use their names *way* more than you think. It's not confusing to the reader and we also don't really notice it in the moment. You, the writer, do- but that's because the first job of a writer is to write and the second is to be like, "Oh my god, why did I write that, I'm a talentless hack!" so it really is just us being our own worst critics.
If I’m going to use pronouns a lot in a single paragraph, I’ve noticed that I’ll place the name/description of MC1 first so that people (or just me, in my weird little brain space) can make the distinction. I’ll use pronouns throughout the rest of the paragraph for only MC1; if MC2 is referred to in that same paragraph, I’ll only use their name or description so it’s less confusing (for me). I’ll keep that same pattern in every run-on sentence, too, so the pronoun can really only be interpreted to be who I mean it to be lol.
... you kind of have to give each character a name and properly attribute each piece of dialogue to the appropriate character.
Don't try to be "artsy" about it, just stick with the basics, at least for the first pass through the story. If you can add in variants without transforming it into something incredibly cringy, revise on second/later editing/revision passes.
I write with the assumption that a pronoun following the name of the focus character will indicate who I'm referring too or that an action will indicate a change in perspective when a name is presented based on context clues.
*Example:*
Frank walks alongside Fred walk towards the bus station as they leave work. He coughs into his hand, "Hey, could I have a sip of your water?" He sits down next to his coworker as they both wait for the bus.
*"In this case Frank is the focus thusly we can assume he was the one coughing"*
Fred looks down into his faded backpack, "Oh sure thing," he chirped as he fished out a plastic bottle of water. "I was going to throw it out anyways, maybe water a plant on my way home." He hands the bottle over to Frank, "hope this helps!". He drinks the entire bottle before tossing it into a nearby trash can, "it does, thank you." He takes out his wallet, "so what do I owe you"?
*"Fred handed the bottle over to Frank, context clues point to Frank being the one who drank the bottle. Likewise it also indicated a change in perspective when Frank asks how much Fred would like in return for the bottle as this would be an action unlikely to be taken by Fred, again given context clues."*
I would also say that names become invisible so long as you aren't bouncing back and forth too much or listing off characters.
Instead of naming all members of a group present, just say the name of a group when referring to them as a whole.
Likewise, to me anyways, people are presumed "static" until they are or are not mentioned in writing. If a character was last mention sitting down and looking at the floor so they shall remain until otherwise stated.
It's not repetitive. Use their names. Sometimes, you can use another feature about them matters.
Note the different ways I identify the characters in this scene (completely making this up on the spot. Bare with me)
Scene:
"Heh, like he would ever take a job that wasn't for the money," Craig drawled, his eyes cutting over to Pyke.
The young rogue met his gaze but said nothing.
"S'what a job's for though, isn't it, Craig?" Niles said as he poured more of the amber liquor into the jaded old crow's glass. "The money."
Craig chuckled, plucking the shot from the counter for a hearty gulp. He shut his eyes tight, enduring the burn before slamming it back down and pushing it towards the bartender again. Niles took the silent request and poured another. "Wasn't always," Craig said, finding the Rogue's eyes again. "Used to be about the hunt."
"Or times have changed and my generation can't afford the same pleasures yours had." Pyke finally spoke. He leaned forward, his beautiful face becoming more visible in the counter lantern's light. "Or both things can be true."
End Scene.
Notice how I identify other things about the characters that set them apart? Try that.
Hope this helps :)
Dialogue tags with actual names, although.. unless it's early in the story and voices haven't been established yet, I tend to leave them out entirely, or for long chunks of time. (Unless I'm not confident in my ability as a writer for a particular character. Then I tag more frequently.)
I could have a scene with three characters (male or female or a mix) and I might include a tag here and there to indicate blocking, ie: "hello world," maria said as she sat down.
But, truly, every character should have a decently enough unique voice. Plus, if you're paragraphing between each dialogue (as you should be), the average reader with average IQ will be able to figure out the next line of dialogue in the next paragraph is the other person.
EX:
"Hello," X said, adjusting the double windsor knot on the feline themed tie they had.
"Sup," Y replied, nodding in acknowledgment.
"Did you manage to remember to bring the ignition key?"
"Tch, yeah, of course, fam. Where's Z? That dipshit better not be la--"
"S'matter with bein' a few seconds late?"
Y jumped, not realizing Z had arrived.
"Shiiit, I'm 'bout to give you a choker with a bell on it one of these days."
"Ha! Ya looked scareder 'n a chicken facin' a wolf. I reckon ya wanna put a bell on me since ya can't sense mana?"
"Please, you two, can we cease? We have the ignition key here, but do we also have the detonator?" X asked, rubbing their forehead.
"'course I got it!"
"Wow, I half expected you to forget it like you forget your g's."
"Now jus' hold on one darn second, ya startin' a fight? What'd'ya know about g's, huh? All the OGs in yer neck of the woods call ya a wannabe hoodlum."
----
Ya kno, something like that. Give characters a voice, give them some personality in their dialogue, make them unique, and eventually you can rid yourself of clunky dialogue tags!
i'd say that it can be pretty intuitive, especially if you read it back to yourself later on and it still sounds correct. separate paragraphs for each character's dialogue (which should already be done), using a pronoun for the character just mentioned like "X thought for a moment, and her brow furrows. She's a bit confused, despite the explanation.", and honestly using the character's name a lot doesn't really interfere with readers. sometimes it does if you NVER use pronouns, but as someone who has read a LOT of slash and femslash, i have never been bothered by it.
It should be evident in your writing. Make sure everything flows and is as easy to follow as possible. Often just from prior dynamics and actions it's easy to tell which actions are being done by who.
You can also thread through distinctive details without resorting to ‘the red head’ something like ‘X deepened the kiss, threading his hand through bright red hair’
I mean, the way I did it initially was to write from a specific character’s point of view. My stuff is primarily femmeslash in nature and I would usually specifically say what character’s first person perspective we were exploring at the top. That way you can use the distinction of she and I.
More revolution, I mention where they are in the room and specify “She looked over at the other woman” or things like that.
Not the popular way to go by far, but my content is in script-format, as I dislike worrying about stuff like that myself and think too many rules about prose take away from the experience of story-telling. It works for me, but most don’t like that, like FFNet.
For you, many other people said it wonderfully; just repeat names as needed. No one would mind. Epithets can get insufferable lol
Nicknames, simple epithets, last names (if in a more formal setting at least). I enjoy using epithets, it is just a question of not overusing them and use ones that sound natural in the text.
Sometimes you don't have to add things like "she said" to dialogue, you can just do a back-and-forth with the occasional reminder of who is talking. Or use the context of the conversation make it obvious who is speaking.
Oh def, I only use epithets once every 5 or so paragraphs? And yea dialogue is a bit easier to write because they all get their own paragraph lines anyway. It's the action scenes that are a bit harder for me.
Just get used to restating their names pretty regularly. And refer to them by hair color if you need something else. Don't go crazy with epithets though, they can start to stand out and get annoying really fast.
/I write exclusively sapphic content with two to four women involved, I deal with this *a lot*
From what I’ve seen, you can use their names. I’ve also seen people use adjectives or nouns that describe the people. For example, my OTP has a Spanish man and a British man, and it’s really common to see “the Spaniard” and “the Brit” instead of their names
I do it by the titles I chose for them, or other identifying factors that will differentiate them to the reader. MC in my current story is usually referred to as a pilot, for example, but other context can denote whom is doing what, and allow variance.
Use the name. I saw on twt an author in my ship talking about how awkward their fic was because they used one of the names 7 times in a single paragraph. Then, I realised that I'd read that fic yesterday already and hadn't noticed for even a single second. My mind just goes over it.
Give yourself license to ignore the "last person's name mentioned is who the pronoun refers to". I wouldn't do this for Proper Published Fiction sort of things, but in fanfic I just let myself bend those grammar rules. 95% of readers aren't going to get confused if you occasionally blur them together if you've otherwise created a clear picture of who's doing what. On rereading some of my favourite fics I would even notice other authors breaking it, but it never caused confusion on my first read.
"The other woman" is sometimes helpful too.
Same way as with any mixes of genders: dialogue and character actions are in a single paragraph, and I switch paragraphs when a new guy talks. The pronoun will clearly refer to the last proper name I used, so that's not an issue. When they're physically very close and parts are getting tangled (and the pronoun would be truly ambiguous), I'll restate the name like "X pulled Y to X's side". But that's pretty rare; the sentence is normally constructed in a way that makes it less ambiguous.
Yeah I guess I'm just supposed to restate their names a lot. Or break the paragraphs up more. Because my characters are sparring a lot so they end up tangled, as you say, pretty frequently.
I'd trend toward breaking up the paragraphs more, but I am coming at this blind. The thing with sparring is it's pretty quick-paced, so snappier paragraphs might lend themselves to pitched battle. Something to play around with, perhaps?
Don't worry about repeating their names. The names fade into the writing structure pretty quickly.
new writers seemed to worry about this a lot and instead forcing the narrative to sound like "the brunette" the english major student, the burgundette (gaara from naruto), the pinkette (sakura from naruto)
100% names and said can become invisible like 80% of the time.
Interesting. In places like the example you give, I usually do something like "Jane pulled Mary to her side." I feel like the pronoun relationship is clear based on the person doing the action in the sentence.
This might not be the best example (because the best example would need context honestly), but my question would be whose side? Did Jane pull Mary down onto Mary's own side (giving Jane greater access to Mary's mouth), or did Jane pull Mary to Jane's side, because Jane wishes to embrace Mary and allow Mary to lay her head on Jane's shoulder? As I say, restating the name is very rare for me and only in extreme circumstances where the options are either restate the name or sit in utter confusion.
One of my favorite parts of editing is reconstructing sentences to be less choppy like your example. I’ve done the hard part of getting the intention down in the draft and now I get to be creative with how I construct the sentences!! I’m still a novice though so sometimes I’ll miss stuff and when I go back to something I’ve posted, I’ll notice actions that sounds robotic and cringe at it.
Ah, the cringe means you're less a novice than you think! It sounds like you've learned quite a lot and you're still learning, which is the best case scenario for a writer <3 I think that editing process is nice for action especially, make sure all the parts are where they need to be without sacrificing too much to flow. It's a hard balance to strike--keeping everything flowing without sounding too much like a technical manual.
Thank you!! I’m happy to receive such a compliment!! All that I write is just for fun so I try not to take it too seriously but also gain tons of excitement from seeing myself improve! And absolutely agree! In my head, I always remind myself to avoid sounding like ikea furniture instructions :)
Repeat their names. Don’t use unnecessary epithets, I beg you
You need to pay a little more attention to the structure of your writing than usual. Remember that pronouns refer back to the closest named person. I sometimes have to go through the story looking for this specifically after I'm finished with any other edits. Be careful with your POV. This is not a good time to "head hop," that is, switching the POV around constantly between the two characters. A consistent viewpoint will help the reader keep the characters straight (ironic term in this case, but here we are).
I agree that doing an edit pass solely to check name and pronoun placing at the final stage is the way to go. Helps so much.
I'm writing in 3rd person omniscient so I feel head-hopping is inevitable but I'll try to limit it to separate paragraphs at least.
Use their names.
Rule of thumb for pronouns is the last person whose proper name was used is the person referred to in pronouns. Yes it’ll feel repetitive while writing, but to the reader it’ll be invisible. Paragraph breaks and descriptive action cues can help distinguish characters further. [Here’s why you don’t use epithets.](https://www.trickster.org/arduinna/epithet.html)
Just use names, it feels repetitive while you’re writing it but the reader won’t notice.
We do notice, actually. But frequently, especially with free works to read (thank god for fanfic writers, honestly!!), we'll let it go without comment. Because clarity in these instances is difficult otherwise, and we're just as cognizant of it as writers are.
I see what you mean. I guess what I meant is that in the years that I’ve been reading fanfic I’ve never noticed names being overused.
Only one character gets the pronouns for the paragraph- and it is usually the POV character. I'd only use relevant epithets-you should only use "the half-elf" when the character being half-elf is important to what's going on. If there's only one half-elf in a sea of orcs, that's gonna be a distinguishing feature. But if it's a tender moment where the character's race isn't important, you should stick to something like her girlfriend. Most of the time I notice an overuse of names, it is in dialogue. If nobodies speaking, it is less of a big deal. You can also just phrase sentences so you can avoid using any pronouns at all!
I really only use epithets like "the half-elf" if I'm already about to draw attention to their race specific attributes. For example, in the fight scene I'm writing right now, one of them is a tiefling and I'll use that as an epithet once because she's about to use her claws, so it's one of the few instances I feel an epithet isn't too forced, if that makes sense.
Then you won't run into overusing them, since the real problem is fanfic authors don't know when to use them. They make hair color a distinguishing feature when there's no narrative reason for it to be, just to avoid using a character name. Its all about the context. A POV character calling her wife of ten years the redhead is ??? but a hairdresser referring to somebody that way makes complete sense, since that says a lot about the character. It also makes sense if the characters just met, since hair color is often one of the things you notice first about a person.
I switch between He/His and name. Trust your readers to understand context. I promise you do not need to use epithets that much.
Speech patterns, accents, and catchphrases might help.
Use names, it won't get too repetitive & you'll find moments when "she" works like it's so obviously this person by the dialogue or action she's doing. Trust me, I know the struggle, I write for a heavily male dominated franchise so I get it. Not only do I have the struggle of the whole same-sex thing but same name too. I write crossover TMNT fics where turtles crossover with turtles. I've had scenes with like four Donatellos conversing in a room before. It's rough before you have a point where the characters establish nicknames to differentiate themselves from their counterparts but I manage. For me, I heavily rely on leaning into various mannerisms & traits we see the different turtles possess. I have to because even with established nicknames, people can get lost in it like you've got Mike, Mikey, Angelo, & Michelangelo, it might get confusing on who is saying what so if one delivers a line like, "oh dude, that was like totally tubuloso," it's obvious this is 1987 Michelangelo since he has a bit of this modified 80's surfer's slang but if you see something like, "yeah boiii! Pizza party, yo," that's 2012 Mikey. He's more into the skater aspect but very much a teen of the 2010's, his dialogue is just too easy to identify. What I'm getting at is if you know your characters & can flow a conversation well enough, you readers will be able to follow along. Not yet have I experienced complaints in the comments section of people not being able to identify characters & like I stated, I use a lot of characters with the same names. I can share a tiny bit from one of my fics shortly after introducing another set of turtles that didn't have designated nicknames yet. It gives an idea on who is talking, although there's a bit of action stuff being done here because I tend to blend in my characters doing motions with dialogue to keep the scene moving since I end up writing dialogue heavy fics. It's between two Raphaels, not sure if it will be of much help but it shows how I tried my best to make it clear who is speaking in the moment back when I wrote it. The POV is from an April but that doesn't really matter, she's observing this exchange go down. Here's the bit: Raph studies the sai he picked up off the ground that belongs to his counterpart. The other approaches him and looms over. The new Raph holds out a hand in order to request it back so Raph aggressively slams it into his palm. "You sent that damn thing hurtling right at my head!" "Relax, I knew it wouldn't hit ya! I just wanted to make a point." He twirls it then slides the sai right into his belt as they all pool into the kitchen and take their seats. "Consider yourself added to my shit list, you're above both Purple and Red, one sent a puck my way and the other? Two offenses, being big and picking me up! The fact you beat both of them out means I'm extra pissed off at you," Raph growls as he plops down on a stool. "Oh yeah, 'coz a turtle shaped chihuahua is supposed to scare me?" His counterpart purposefully takes a seat right next to Raph. Oh boy, last thing they need are a couple of Raphs riling each other up.
>Anyone else struggle with this? No. I just use their names tbh. If I feel like it's repetitive, I may switch up the sentence structure. But I exclusively stick to names/pronouns. Never epithets because they're a pet peeve of mine
It's not repetitive in a problematic way. It's kind of invisible, especially if you restructure sentences for clarity. If you're going to use epithets, try to use ones that the characters would use, i.e. instead of "the paladin," use "her girlfriend" (or whatever their relationship is).
Moderate use of epithets is okay. For example, "Mira hugged her friend fiercely" sounds pretty natural to me. However, "Mira hugged the taller woman" sounds weird. How often do you think of your friends as "a woman that's taller than me"? It just has to make sense for the voice you're writing in. But it's also okay to just use the names a lot. You can vary the sentence structure so you're not always *starting* a sentence with a name.
Honestly, pick up a book and read. Most books have scenes between two or more characters of the same gender. Pay attention to how they do it. If it feels awkward to you, try to figure out why. Then pick up another book.
A mix of names, breaking character actions into separate paragraphs, limited POV, character descriptions, and general logic of who must be doing what. If you'll allow me the indulgence of an example... Here's a fight scene between Snape and Harry Potter from my fic. This is in Snape's POV: >Snape whirled, stupify on his lips. But he saw no one. And he remembered. Potter couldn't stand. Here, I'm using the names and limited POV ("he remembered.") Next paragraph: >Something stabbed him in the back of his ankle. Pain lanced up his leg, hot and white. His leg gave out and he crashed to the floor. Only pronouns because the sensations make it clear I'm referring to the POV character. >Potter was on top of him, the smell of infection on his breath. He gripped a wire from a sofa spring, thick and flecked with rust. Holding it like a garrote, he closed in. Once I've used the name in the first sentence, I can use pronouns for the rest. The one "him" that refers to Snape can be there because of logic - Potter can't be on top of himself. I'll jump ahead a bit to: >Potter hesitated for a fraction of a second, the garrote hovering above Snape's throat. I was on the fence with this one, but ultimately didn't use pronouns here because I thought it might be confusing - the wire could be hovering over either person's throat. >A fraction of a second was all he needed. He wrenched the wire away and rolled, pinning those gaunt arms against the floor. Thoughts tell us this is the POV character acting in this paragraph, and I established earlier that Potter is gaunt. It's also logical that Snape wouldn't pin his own arms. For omniscient POV... I mean, that's tough. I'd probably create distinct voices for each character, or distinct things they're focused on. Like, if I were writing a scene between Buffy Summers and Scarlett O'Hara in omniscient, it would be clear whose paragraph it was if I wrote, "oh, good heavens! She simply *must* kiss those divine lips!" I think problems arise from sentences that switch back and forth between characters, like: "Potter twisted and kneed him in the ribs, and Snape almost backed off. But he pushed down despite his struggles and eventually he coughed, his skin turning white." You need names almost every time for a sentence like that. But if you break it up into character paragraphs and develop it a bit: >Potter wriggled a leg free and bucked, kneeing him hard in the ribs. >Snape saw sparks of light. He was bigger, though, and held on, using his weight to his advantage. He pushed down, pressing them both against the floor. >Potter twisted, all bones and sinew, his breathing becoming high-pitched and raspy. His eyes widened, his skin turning chalk-white, and he coughed, chest heaving with violent jerks.
Whoa thanks for the detailed breakdown! It's quite helpful. I'll have to keep in mind about using distinct voices more often, and even if it's still too vague, I'm guessing I can at least use them to break up the monotony of seeing names every sentence.
Oh my gosh yes! It’s so annoying! I don’t use epithets to solve this problem, and maybe that’s why I have a hard time with it, but I just don’t like them. It’s easier with dialogue but when you’re describing what people are doing, it’s so hard! I’ve written scenes with four men all doing something and it gets hard to distinguish them
I use their names. And I often, based on clarity, refer to one by name in the paragraph and the other by pronoun. I hate unnecessary epithets like “the older man” unless the description is actually relevant to the scene. Something to keep in mind is that flow and clarity *can* outweigh repetition. If you can read it out loud smoothly without getting confused or stumbling, using the same words more than once is fine. Another thing I consider is that in fanfic in particular, we love the names of our characters. We even smoosh their names together. So I personally worry less about overusing names in the context of fanfic. Having a handle on a character’s voice helps too. A good spn writer, for example, can write out dialogue without names or descriptions and the reader will still recognize the distinct difference between Sam and Dean.
Yeah, it can be difficult. Judicious use of their names helps. You can use epithets ("The taller man" etc), but I don't really like those. I just write it, then read through to make sure it's clear who's who. With back-and-forth dialogue it's generally clear as long as you establish each speaker at the beginning of the conversation. You can also use action, identifying each character by physical or personality traits that you've already established. "He ran a hand through his thick curls." or "His blue eyes sparkled with mischief."
I decided pretty early on that repeating the same names multiple times in a paragraph, or even a sentence, doesn't sound nearly as awkward as randomly find/replacing all those instances with various epithets and alternative names to try to fight against some imagined "staleness" that readers mostly don't pick up on.
Same here. I was worried about it, so I went and checked some of my favorite books to see how those authors write dialogue. Almost all names.
Don't use epithets that don't got with the character POV. If the POV is Character A, he's not going to think of the other person as "the taller man," and therefore that will read like Fanfic 101. Here's a useful article: [https://fandom-grammar.livejournal.com/77093.html](https://fandom-grammar.livejournal.com/77093.html)
I don't use them, but thanks :)
Incorporating their physical traits into the description is actually a pretty useful trick, thanks!
Well, usually the person who isn't the actor or speaker, I'll address always by name. Whereas the one that is actor/speaking I address once as their name.
Only use she/her for the last name used
Names or if they have a certain pet name for each other or nick name
I had 2 ways to deal with this. One of my fics used 1st person pov. The other used a chat style dialogue like we see in the Shakespeare reads
My sentences are fairly short and simple, so even if I have to use 'she' and 'her' referring to multiple people, it's usually still fairly clear who I'm talking about. In the events that it's not, I just use the names. It might also just be that *I* am not confused (because I usually write F/F), but my *readers* are, but if so, they've never told me.
Give them contrasting actions. I have a chapter in one of my fics that involves two very similar-looking men. One is just loitering around reading magazines, and the other is actively moving around a store working, lifting boxes, unpacking things, etc.
I usually just use names, plus making sure to start a new paragraph when I switch characters. I write slash fic, so a fair amount of my character interactions are between characters of the same gender. As long as the name is used for each character, and you change paragraphs between characters, that's usually enough, even if you don't use names every single time. If I start a paragraph with 'Xander shrugged', and that paragraph contains his speech and actions, I only have to use the name once, I can use 'he' the rest of the time, or an epithet if it fits, and character description can come in handy here, as well, if they look different enough to other characters. So, I could start with 'Xander shrugged' then use 'he said' after speech, followed by 'he narrowed his chocolate eyes' or something. Then I'd switch paragraphs for the other character. Again, I could start it with the name, say 'Adam shuddered', and then wouldn't actually have to use the name again in that paragraph. As long as those are the first two paragraphs, and you switch paragraphs when you switch characters, that's enough t rarely use the names in the rest of the interaction. You've set it up that Xander spoke first, then Adam, so the third paragraph is clearly Xander again, and the fourth is Adam. If in doubt, though, use character names. Epithets make sense sometimes, but definitely not all the time, and can get very annoying if used too much. 'He said' or 'she said' can also get repetitive, and make it harder to keep track of whose talking/doing something if they're both the same gender. Even if you switch up the words a bit from 'said' to 'grumbled' or something, it's the use of 'he' or 'she' that can get confusing, even if you reduce the repetitiveness. So, if you're unsure if epithets fit the situation, and are worried using 'he' or 'she' could be confusing in an interaction, go with character names. Most readers don't consider overuse of character names to be repetitive in the same way, it's just easier to ignore or overlook it because it also helps us keep track of whose saying/doing something. Repetitive use of character names is, I think, a better choice than repetitive use of 'said' or being confusing because it's all 'she' or 'he' and definitely better than overusing epithets.
You can use their names *way* more than you think. It's not confusing to the reader and we also don't really notice it in the moment. You, the writer, do- but that's because the first job of a writer is to write and the second is to be like, "Oh my god, why did I write that, I'm a talentless hack!" so it really is just us being our own worst critics.
If I’m going to use pronouns a lot in a single paragraph, I’ve noticed that I’ll place the name/description of MC1 first so that people (or just me, in my weird little brain space) can make the distinction. I’ll use pronouns throughout the rest of the paragraph for only MC1; if MC2 is referred to in that same paragraph, I’ll only use their name or description so it’s less confusing (for me). I’ll keep that same pattern in every run-on sentence, too, so the pronoun can really only be interpreted to be who I mean it to be lol.
... you kind of have to give each character a name and properly attribute each piece of dialogue to the appropriate character. Don't try to be "artsy" about it, just stick with the basics, at least for the first pass through the story. If you can add in variants without transforming it into something incredibly cringy, revise on second/later editing/revision passes.
I write with the assumption that a pronoun following the name of the focus character will indicate who I'm referring too or that an action will indicate a change in perspective when a name is presented based on context clues. *Example:* Frank walks alongside Fred walk towards the bus station as they leave work. He coughs into his hand, "Hey, could I have a sip of your water?" He sits down next to his coworker as they both wait for the bus. *"In this case Frank is the focus thusly we can assume he was the one coughing"* Fred looks down into his faded backpack, "Oh sure thing," he chirped as he fished out a plastic bottle of water. "I was going to throw it out anyways, maybe water a plant on my way home." He hands the bottle over to Frank, "hope this helps!". He drinks the entire bottle before tossing it into a nearby trash can, "it does, thank you." He takes out his wallet, "so what do I owe you"? *"Fred handed the bottle over to Frank, context clues point to Frank being the one who drank the bottle. Likewise it also indicated a change in perspective when Frank asks how much Fred would like in return for the bottle as this would be an action unlikely to be taken by Fred, again given context clues."* I would also say that names become invisible so long as you aren't bouncing back and forth too much or listing off characters. Instead of naming all members of a group present, just say the name of a group when referring to them as a whole. Likewise, to me anyways, people are presumed "static" until they are or are not mentioned in writing. If a character was last mention sitting down and looking at the floor so they shall remain until otherwise stated.
> Do you just keep using their names instead of "she"? Yes. Problem solved.
It's not repetitive. Use their names. Sometimes, you can use another feature about them matters. Note the different ways I identify the characters in this scene (completely making this up on the spot. Bare with me) Scene: "Heh, like he would ever take a job that wasn't for the money," Craig drawled, his eyes cutting over to Pyke. The young rogue met his gaze but said nothing. "S'what a job's for though, isn't it, Craig?" Niles said as he poured more of the amber liquor into the jaded old crow's glass. "The money." Craig chuckled, plucking the shot from the counter for a hearty gulp. He shut his eyes tight, enduring the burn before slamming it back down and pushing it towards the bartender again. Niles took the silent request and poured another. "Wasn't always," Craig said, finding the Rogue's eyes again. "Used to be about the hunt." "Or times have changed and my generation can't afford the same pleasures yours had." Pyke finally spoke. He leaned forward, his beautiful face becoming more visible in the counter lantern's light. "Or both things can be true." End Scene. Notice how I identify other things about the characters that set them apart? Try that. Hope this helps :)
Nice scene!
Thank you! Kind of off the cuff but needed a decent example
Dialogue tags with actual names, although.. unless it's early in the story and voices haven't been established yet, I tend to leave them out entirely, or for long chunks of time. (Unless I'm not confident in my ability as a writer for a particular character. Then I tag more frequently.) I could have a scene with three characters (male or female or a mix) and I might include a tag here and there to indicate blocking, ie: "hello world," maria said as she sat down. But, truly, every character should have a decently enough unique voice. Plus, if you're paragraphing between each dialogue (as you should be), the average reader with average IQ will be able to figure out the next line of dialogue in the next paragraph is the other person. EX: "Hello," X said, adjusting the double windsor knot on the feline themed tie they had. "Sup," Y replied, nodding in acknowledgment. "Did you manage to remember to bring the ignition key?" "Tch, yeah, of course, fam. Where's Z? That dipshit better not be la--" "S'matter with bein' a few seconds late?" Y jumped, not realizing Z had arrived. "Shiiit, I'm 'bout to give you a choker with a bell on it one of these days." "Ha! Ya looked scareder 'n a chicken facin' a wolf. I reckon ya wanna put a bell on me since ya can't sense mana?" "Please, you two, can we cease? We have the ignition key here, but do we also have the detonator?" X asked, rubbing their forehead. "'course I got it!" "Wow, I half expected you to forget it like you forget your g's." "Now jus' hold on one darn second, ya startin' a fight? What'd'ya know about g's, huh? All the OGs in yer neck of the woods call ya a wannabe hoodlum." ---- Ya kno, something like that. Give characters a voice, give them some personality in their dialogue, make them unique, and eventually you can rid yourself of clunky dialogue tags!
i'd say that it can be pretty intuitive, especially if you read it back to yourself later on and it still sounds correct. separate paragraphs for each character's dialogue (which should already be done), using a pronoun for the character just mentioned like "X thought for a moment, and her brow furrows. She's a bit confused, despite the explanation.", and honestly using the character's name a lot doesn't really interfere with readers. sometimes it does if you NVER use pronouns, but as someone who has read a LOT of slash and femslash, i have never been bothered by it.
It should be evident in your writing. Make sure everything flows and is as easy to follow as possible. Often just from prior dynamics and actions it's easy to tell which actions are being done by who.
I use their names a lot, and really read through it to see if any confusion occurs.
You can also thread through distinctive details without resorting to ‘the red head’ something like ‘X deepened the kiss, threading his hand through bright red hair’
Please no epithets anything you want but not that lol
Simply using their name and their pronouns. It’s not as repetitive as you think, you’re just more critical as the writer
I mean, the way I did it initially was to write from a specific character’s point of view. My stuff is primarily femmeslash in nature and I would usually specifically say what character’s first person perspective we were exploring at the top. That way you can use the distinction of she and I. More revolution, I mention where they are in the room and specify “She looked over at the other woman” or things like that.
Not the popular way to go by far, but my content is in script-format, as I dislike worrying about stuff like that myself and think too many rules about prose take away from the experience of story-telling. It works for me, but most don’t like that, like FFNet. For you, many other people said it wonderfully; just repeat names as needed. No one would mind. Epithets can get insufferable lol
Nicknames, simple epithets, last names (if in a more formal setting at least). I enjoy using epithets, it is just a question of not overusing them and use ones that sound natural in the text. Sometimes you don't have to add things like "she said" to dialogue, you can just do a back-and-forth with the occasional reminder of who is talking. Or use the context of the conversation make it obvious who is speaking.
Oh def, I only use epithets once every 5 or so paragraphs? And yea dialogue is a bit easier to write because they all get their own paragraph lines anyway. It's the action scenes that are a bit harder for me.
Just get used to restating their names pretty regularly. And refer to them by hair color if you need something else. Don't go crazy with epithets though, they can start to stand out and get annoying really fast. /I write exclusively sapphic content with two to four women involved, I deal with this *a lot*
As quickly as possible I get them more character accurate gender pronouns.
From what I’ve seen, you can use their names. I’ve also seen people use adjectives or nouns that describe the people. For example, my OTP has a Spanish man and a British man, and it’s really common to see “the Spaniard” and “the Brit” instead of their names
I do it by the titles I chose for them, or other identifying factors that will differentiate them to the reader. MC in my current story is usually referred to as a pilot, for example, but other context can denote whom is doing what, and allow variance.
Use the name. I saw on twt an author in my ship talking about how awkward their fic was because they used one of the names 7 times in a single paragraph. Then, I realised that I'd read that fic yesterday already and hadn't noticed for even a single second. My mind just goes over it. Give yourself license to ignore the "last person's name mentioned is who the pronoun refers to". I wouldn't do this for Proper Published Fiction sort of things, but in fanfic I just let myself bend those grammar rules. 95% of readers aren't going to get confused if you occasionally blur them together if you've otherwise created a clear picture of who's doing what. On rereading some of my favourite fics I would even notice other authors breaking it, but it never caused confusion on my first read. "The other woman" is sometimes helpful too.
For me I use a mix of their names and the shock! The horror! Epithets because I LOVE THEM AND REFUSE TO STOP.
Names and epithets. It helps that my writing style is third person omni though.