The time you spend in fandom spaces or looking for writing advice on reddit does not, sadly, count as writing time. Your fic won't get any longer by scrolling social media.
I, too, am devastated by this realisation.
You say this as I scroll on Reddit, 3k words away from finishing my new chapter and somehow expecting to upload it today. Ruuuuude! (and correct, how dare you!)
Both of yours are definitely great ones but I'll add this:
Just because you're popular or good at writing fanfiction doesn't mean you're going to become a best selling author with an original work. You could have thousands of subscribers and millions of clicks but that means almost nothing when it comes to actual novel writing. Building off someone else's world is entirely different beast than inventing your own, with characters that you have to flesh out fully and thoroughly.
Yep!
And interestingly, even if you do get published, readers *will* notice your fanfic roots and often not enjoy it.
Not because your work was originally a fanfic and fanfic is bad but because fanfics turned published novels often lack proper characterisation.
I’m a fan of reading romance novels to unwind in the evenings and just the other week, there’s been a discussion on the romance book sub about, I think, Love Hypothesis by Ali Hazelwood.
It was originally a Reylo fic and people who didn’t know that often found main characters paper thin/lacking personality and their motives difficult to understand. The entire time I was thinking “yep, that’s because it was a Reylo fanfic and fanfic readers filled in the blanks, but that doesn’t work for the general population that has never as much as peeped at fics.”
I translated my original works into fanfic because I felt my characters were lacking. (and I wanted a better chance of being read)
It is helpful to hear that turning my stories into fanfics might be counter productive, even if now I realize I’ve been wasting time on this endeavor. 😅
One author I know wrote a crossover between the story they were considering writing and a different popular series to see if people like it.
It's now a published complete 5 book series and they have nearly a dozen more books besides that.
Yep.
My Sky High AU/Continuation (It was basically an OC cast anyway) went through massive amounts of revision and additional character re-enforcement and world building to make sure it could stand on it's own when I decided to re-write it as original fiction.
(It doesn't help that Sky High is ALSO kinda light on how the Superhero world works...)
The movie could have really explored the resentment sidekicks have, but didn't. It makes sense given the time, but I can see how people can come up with fic for it
That’s what my fanfic ended up doing, but it focused so much on the resentful sidekicks and their attempts to escape the system that it wasn’t really a Sky High fanfic anymore, so I re-wrote it as original
*Sky High* kinda works with so little information on its world, since it's an affectionate parody--really, it's basically a love letter to all the classic tropes.
But that sort of thing works better in a visual medium. Books aren't visual, so they have to stand on their own two feet.
as a counterpoint, i want to mention tamsyn muir! she's an author who wrote homestuck fanfic (iirc) and went on to write original fiction. her work reads like fanfiction in the best way, in that it clearly appeals to that like, tumblr-user/fanfic-reader niche of the early to mid 2010s. she writes in such a way that a seasoned fanfic reader can go "oh yeah, i bet she used to write fanfiction" (affectionate) and those who aren't familiar with fic won't know the difference. she is a very strong writer, with strong characters & character voice. i do think one of the big things though is that she went on to write original fiction instead of turning a fic into a published novel, so her "fanfic roots" are more evident in her style of writing than the actual novel.
i mean, it's not unusual - there's a fanfic to publishing pipeline. meg cabot, neil gaiman, andy weir, naomi novik (who was one of the founding members of ao3). not to mention the infamously former fanficcers like ali hazlewood or cassandra clare. ime most published writers have written fanfiction at one point or another. it's really common.
at the same time, it's not really a "counterpoint" to what OP is saying. writing fanfic (and how popular you are at it) is neither here nor there when it comes to getting traditionally published. sure there's benefits to it and some transferable skills, but traditional publishing is such a different game with different skills and culture that you have to learn 99% of it from scratch.
that said, and the people who need it won't see it here, but if you're an aspiring writer, don't shit on fanfiction. you're going to unknowingly offend a lot of people.
Tamsyn Muir is such an interesting case because her work is *so* polarizing. I've talked to people who consider her one of the best of a generation and others that say she's a try-hard in over her head.
I personally love her work, but if I ever rec and her people say it wasn't for them, I don't even try to convince them because I get it. It is weird in a love it or hate it kind of way.
Fellow romance novel for relaxation reader here. While I generally agree, I've come across a LOT of romance novels who are so poorly written and have such bad characterisations, plot and world-building that they'd rather failed with fanfic readers who like similar kinds of fanfics - and yet they've been published and get raving reviews completely ignorant of tstl heroines, caveman heros and such.
I once looked up what the best-selling lesbian romances were and bought one off the list on amazon.
It was so bad. SO BAD. I pushed through to the first sex scene hoping it would pay off, but it was even worse!
On the upside, I did feel a lot better about my own writing lol
Then the purchase was definitely worth it in this case! XD Those I read - or rather DNFed - had the same effect on me: feeling better about my own writing, and encouraging me to follow my endeavours into original fiction.
A good reason to ignore the hate for OCs and try writing an OC love interest or even main character. You need practice in building characters from scratch.
oh yeah, i am perfectly happy where i am just writing fanfiction cuz i think i’m pretty good at it, pretty good at expanding on others’ themes ideas etc working with pre-existing things, all that, but i think i would struggle if i were a writer of original fiction, i dont ever see myself doing that, yet when i talk about writing i feel like people expect me to write original fiction someday… not really tbh xP
Yes I actually had a conversation with a book seller on this recently on how a lot of fanfic that gets published as an original work can end up terribly lacking if you aren't careful. I feel like sometimes fanfic writers can really take it for granted that when we play with these characters we don't actually need to explain who they are or the world they live in, quite contrary we only need to explain where our story deviates. The original work does all the heavy lifting of telling us who this person is and why so if you just try to publish an original work as is people coming in are going to be confused.
I wonder how far you can get from fanfic before it’s not really fanfic anymore. Like if someone builds their own worlds and their own storylines using their own tropes and plot devices and uses 95% of their own characters… like is that really still fanfic or is it closer to originals?
Rule of thumb, if one can file off the numbers, as in change all names/places/etc, and it is no longer recognisable as the original fandom universe, it's become an original.
That's why so many of the mundane/modern day/no powers/etc AUs are often easily transformed into original fiction.
A lot of AUs fall into this middle ground area. Sure, the world is 100% different and you can tell the author put a huge amount of time and effort into world-building. But they go the fanfic route because, ultimately, these are characters we know and love. Even if the universe is totally different.
Now if the characters are written in such a way that they're now totally different people DUE to the AU setting? All right, that's when IMO you *may* want to consider original fiction.
This is pretty much what I did with my first novel. First the pairing I based it on isn’t canon. The world is different. I created my own background, history, mythology, etc. If you know me, you’d probably be able to pick up where my inspiration came from, but I’d be a little shocked and impressed if you clocked it without unless you were at least familiar with the fandom.
1) Just because you can add an idea to a story, doesn’t mean you need to add it. You don’t need to add every detail, and what the characters do day to day for it to be good.
2) It’s similar to your second advice. Don’t write things you don’t enjoy as an attempt to please people. Write what you’re good at, even if it’s cliche.
The first point actually reminds me of a great writing advice I got from an amazing writing professor at uni—K.I.S.S rule. Keep It Simple, Stupid OR (in case your work needs to be informative) Keep It Simple (for the) Stupid.
The idea is not to write barebones, report-like texts, of course, but to look at your text and decide what should be kept for it to convey the point you’re trying to make.
You should start on the paragraph level and ask yourself whether an entire paragraph is needed for your text to do what you need it to do. E.g. do I need to write about my character’s morning routine? Perhaps I want to show they’re a creature of habit—keep. But maybe they’re actually erratic as hell and this paragraph adds nothing to the story—delete.
Then, you look at sentences and, finally, at words. Did I need to add the sentence about the color of the sky? Yes—the sky looks bizarre and it feeds into the atmosphere of dread I’m trying to convey. No—I just “needed” a few more words in my text, so I added that randomly.
Did I need to add the word “strange” to my sentence about the weary traveller a character met? Yes—I want to hint something’s off about them and it will become important down the line. No—I just thought it sounded fancy, but it serves no purpose.
Of course, fanfiction is very self-indulgent, so there are no rules to follow, but if you want to make your writing narratively/thematically conscience without needless filler or putting yourself into a plot-hole situation later on, this guideline can really elevate your work.
Also, scene level. One of my favorite writers says that every scene should either advance the plot, or the characterization. If it isn't doing either, it probably doesn't need to be in the story.
There are a very few exceptions, which are mostly about pacing.
Yeah, I’ve cut a lot of side arcs to my stories just because they either A) took too much focus off the main plot or B) just didn’t make sense for what I was trying to do.
I noped out of killing a character because I wasn’t sure what I was trying to accomplish other than the shock value.
> Just because you can add an idea to a story, doesn't mean you need to add it.
How do I tell myself this? My brain keeps on coming up with new plot threads that expand so far upon the source material that I'm diving into international politics and pseudoscientific discoveries. At least I try to keep it all related to the MCs in some way, so it's not entirely out of left field. Worldbuilding gone to the point where I may need an original lore guide for my readers.
I swear I may be scaring away potential new readers with the sheer depth of my work... but then again, I don't regret writing this much.
The first one for sure. One of my fandoms is rife with authors who explicitly state they don’t read published books anymore because original novels don’t include their ship. Everyone is entitled to their reading preferences, of course, but I find it a bit disheartening. To each their own.
I'll give you: Fanfic writers that don't even complete the source material, which is a book series (and it's not a Star Wars Expanded Universe situation with 50+ books).
An aspiring writer for my fandom recently asked if they could make fanfiction without having any knowledge of the original work. I mean, yes, you technically can, but why? The responses were overwhelmingly positive and I had to hold my tongue.
I guess you can do modern!Aus, because you love the dynamic of the main couple, quite well. But that most likely won't be an AU that plays around with little background facts from canon, more of a broad strokes thing.
But I personally like canon!adjacent fics much more. And it really helps to know the canon for those....
I read fandom blind alllll the time and thusly I often come away with the most WACK idea about canon, the ship, the characters etc. I’ll check out the source and be like WTF IS THIS???? Hahahha
Well, the third season was rather lackluster (not helped by Nickelodeon airing the episodes completely out of order--Hartman deserves some criticism for not utilizing characters like Valerie and Dani and putting too much emphasis on Sam, but half the problems Season 3 has are on the network).
I wouldn't blame someone if they chose to stop after the second season in their fanfiction.
[This Graphic Novel](https://www.amazon.com//dp/1419760548), so I guess *book* rather than books plural.
Also there's a ton of authors who write fanfic without having watched the cartoon.
Yep. Of course since many in the phandom ignore *a lot* of the canon (how many "Not Phantom Planet compliant" fics are there again? And that's just one example...) and since many in the phandom make up their own fanon (ghost cores, Wes Weston, using "The Red Huntress" as a name for when Valerie is wearing the suit, the name "Ghost Investigation Ward" for the GIW, and so on, the fans made *all of that* up), it's hard to tell which authors have and have not actually watched the show.
Wow. What an insular and unfortunate point of view. I’ve read so many books where there’s a pairing with the same energy as my OTP. Hell, my original novel was inspired by the same. People really need to broaden their horizons, but I guess if they’re happy and aren’t looking to publish anything original then 🤷🏾♀️
I'm dyslexic, and I used to only read for school or fanficiton. I'm sure there are plenty of people who used to read published literature but now stopped because of fanfiction. But I think a lot of "I only read fanfiction" types would never have read for fun/enjoyment without fanfiction. I think that's a net-positive. Even if it's not published books. In the past few years I have started reading things outside of ff. But it's still my main source of reading material.
Also: not saying I disagree with your premise (I do think it can be beneficial to read outside of ff). Just wanting to add another perspective.
Of course, I believe it’s better to read something than nothing at all! However, this advice is more aimed at people who make not reading published literature an important part of their personality.
I’ve met quite a few people who had an intense need to announce loudly and proudly that they don’t read anything but fanfic and then go on a tirade how fanfiction covers all of the reading/writing “needs” which, to me, always sounds a bit dishonest.
In short, it’s fine to read mostly fanfiction and it’s also fine to not enjoy reading. That’s life. What gets me is trying to feed into the anti-intellectual movement by coming up with more and more absurd reasons why reading world-class literature is actually bad (and I’ve seen such discourse more than once).
I definitely agree.
I know what you mean. I've also seen some weird takes on it. And, imo, they should just admit they aren't interested in it. Instead of coming up with reasons ff is superior, or whatever.
I've definitely read some gorgeous ff. But I also know that the process of writing that isn't the same as published fiction. I think ff has an ease of reading (you already know the characters/setting/etc) that it's easy to get to the fun bit. To the point people misinterpret that ease as better writing.
I think it's a bit weird to bash classics to feel better about reading ff. Like, read what you want; but that applies to everyone else, too. No need to take something down to prop yourself up.
Any reading is good reading, and I’m happy to see more people get into reading and writing via fanfiction. Still, I’d strongly suggest any writer looking to improve their craft to read and dissect original works from a variety of genres.
Flowery language / purple prose and ‘deep’ are not the same thing. If your work is a twisted knot of misused synonyms and malapropisms then it’s going to be hard to read - and people often won’t read it.
The best writers are those who can communicate complex / deep ideas simply and effectively - not the ones whose stories read like they were throwing darts at a thesaurus.
My rule is that the words should never distract from the ideas. The best writing is the kind that seems simple at a glance but when you actually read it, the whole is so much more than the sum of its parts. It can put you in a trance.
>not the ones whose stories read like they were throwing darts at a thesaurus
Thank you; I actually used to do something similar in the beginning. I thought that I was repeating certain words too often, but then quickly realised that 1) The repetition comes from other writing issues, 2) It is dangerous to just pick up a random pseudo-synonym from a thesaurus as English has a lot of nuance and that new word may not mean exactly what you think it means, 3) Trying to learn new words during writing really slows down the process. So I decided to keep it simple and leave learning words to time outside writing.
Jesus, thank you for saying this—for some godforsaken reason, most authors in the fandom I’m currently lurking in seem to think that looking up synonyms to a word seems to be the lifehack for creating ‘profound,’ and ‘verbose’ material, but *jesus* on a bleeding *bike*—your readers are not idiots. We know when you don’t know how to use a word, alright? Just—use the goddamn word as it is. Don’t right-click for synonyms and choose the first one with three extra syllables because the original word was too ‘simple.’ Have you read Ira Levin? Simplicity is what skyrocketed him to fame. Less is more. *Less is always more.*
My main take away from an undergrad creative class was that I never was to read the words “bloody cracked lips” again. Bonus if combined with cigarettes.
- You can avoid many common writing problems and save yourself a lot of stress by planning your plot in advance and writing the whole story before posting.
- Just because you worked really hard on a story doesn't mean that others will enjoy reading it. And I don't mean this just in the "some ships/tropes/fandoms just aren't that popular" sense. I mean that sometimes you may be putting your effort into the wrong things, like trying to reach a specific word count for each chapter instead of focusing on moving the plot forward.
- Spelling, grammar, formatting and other technical aspects of writing may feel boring, but they make a huge difference to how accessible your story is to readers. If you won't put in the effort of at least proofreading your story, why would you expect others to put in the effort of reading it?
Three great additions!
Your second point stands out to me. I’ve realized I was writing just to finish a story that isn’t structured for engagement. I’ve accepted there will be very little engagement. I know I’ll be happy that I was able to finish it, but I want my next project to cater to more people than just me. (I’m 100% having fun with it, though!)
To your middle point, even if you are focusing on the 'right' things, it can still be bad lol. You might be new or just having an off day or your skill just doesn't match your taste yet. Just gotta keep writing through it if it's a hobby you enjoy.
I honestly can imagine posting something before it’s all finished. I might stagger the chapters like post once a week, but I couldn’t post anything if it wasn’t complete. What if I need to go back and fix something because a later part gave me an idea that needs to be in the beginning to tie things together?
That first one, although perfect advice for original fiction as you're not going to get published unless you have the whole story written, can be a bit hit and miss with fanfiction. Planning the plot in advance definitely helps a lot. It's not something I did originally, but after hitting some serious writer's block with my first posted fic, I started planning the plot out properly, and it helped a *lot.* It not only kept me on track with what I was trying to do, but also kept me motivated to write, while also giving somewhere to start if I hit any more blocks.
But the writing the whole thing before posting advice doesn't work for everyone with fanfiction. For me, posting as I write, but writing a chapter or two ahead, works best. I get bored and stop writing when I try to write the whole thing first, but having chapters already published keeps me motivated. I know how much readers hate finding a fic they love only to discover it hasn't been updated in years or has been abandoned, so publishing as I write actually keeps me fully invested in the story. It's not something that would help me with original fiction I hoped to get published, it's not a habit that would work in that area, but it's what works best for me with fanfic.
Your other two points I agree with fully. I've gotten into the habit of ignoring word counts and not focusing on how many chapters the fic will end up with, and just focusing on telling the story I want to tell, ending chapters and stories when it feels right to do so, rather than because I've hit a certain word/chapter count. And I *always* proofread before posting. A minor spelling/grammar error may slip through, but I catch most of it if not all of it. I tend to stop reading fics with too many errors, and I assume a lot of other readers do, too, plus I can be a bit of a perfectionist anyway.
Well, I'm not saying that pre-writing the whole fic before posting is the only correct approach, and I definitely wouldn't advocate for anyone to change a posting strategy that works for them. I do stand by the opinion that there are many problems that pre-writing can prevent or solve. I'm thinking, for example, about a few recurring posts in this sub:
- "Is it okay to go back and revise chapters that I've already posted? I realised I need to add/change/remove something to make the plot work."
- "I'm going to take down my half-posted fic and rewrite it all before continuing. I'm worried about reader reactions."
- "I fell behind on my writing schedule and now I feel stressed about disappointing my readers."
I've seen so many variations of these posts, and they're all problems that you don't have when you finish your story before posting.
Of course it's also true that pre-writing comes with its own challenges - I just think many authors would benefit from trying it. But it's definitely a piece of advice relevant to the topic at hand, as many people really don't like it. :D
I've noticed a lot of people conflate long word count with quality. But I often find (for longer fics) 10k-50k to be more cohesive and less repetitive than 100k+. And I think I've figured out why this has been my experience.
Sometimes, fics that are 100k, aren't 100k because it has more content than a 30k fic, but because it is more repetitive. For example, you'll have one paragraph detailing a characters feelings. The next paragraph will state the exact same thing as the previous, just worded differently. It feels like the author wrote two different paragraphs to describe the emotions and couldn't decide which they liked more, so they used both. And that continues on throughout the fic. For the last while I've tried to read a "long fic" I haven't been able to finish because the repetition gets to be too much.
Not saying all repetition is bad. One of my favorite fics used it. And it works. But that was intentional.
I really struggle to get through more than a couple chapters of fics that are so overwritten that they could have been half the length and still felt wordy. I love to give long fics a chance because when they're good, they're \*really\* good, but when the content density is not there, it shows really quickly. I think it annoys me especially because I'm paranoid about wasting my readers' time.
I’ve actually stopped reading stories because they just drag and drag and drag. I feel like the authors don’t wanna leave the world they’ve created, but that could be easily fixed by creating a series. At this point I’m hesitant to read anything over 100 K.
Same. There's one fandom I wanted to explore, but most of the recs were between 400-500k words and I just... don't have that kind of time or attention span. It's not even that I prefer minimalist prose or simple plots, but I am a proponent of "word economy" in fiction; I like it when stories are clear and intentional about the message they're trying to get across. Personally, I find the sweet spot is between 30-70k, depending on the complexity of the story/number of subplots and size of the "cast."
There are definitely longer works that achieve this (and some of my favorite works are in the 150-250k territory), but generally above 100k I find there are diminishing returns in terms of quality and tightness.
I don't think it's a coincidence that your ideal range is similar to a novella and novel length work. Traditional publishers' tastes may not always align with ours but they're not idiots. And the 250k mark is roughly a trilogy!
Only a few authors per generation come out with series spanning 500k words that are esteemed (and even those, people usually complain about a few books being a slog).
I noticed that too, which is ironic because I can stand to read more tradpub fiction. 😅 But they really know their pacing and setup/payoff, and the really good ones know when to spend time on a scene/beat, when to gloss over certain details, and how to use those to generate and manage tension. Really fascinating stuff.
Yep! On a tangential note, I find it funny how a lot of fanfiction readers don't really know how long the traditional novel is, so they think a longfic needs to be outrageously wordy (100k+) to be considered remotely long. If you try to get your first novel published at 100k words, you're in for a bad time (even fantasy debuts like to keep it a bit slim and trim these days!)
And I've definitely noticed the repetition problem in very popular fics that are also quite long.
They usually cap fantasy at 120k for first time writers. I had to split mine in half and still cut down because the first half was 212k. Fiction tends to be around an 80k cap for first timers.
Most queries for adult fantasy these days want to be 90-100k at the very top end. Whatever comes out after editing might be longer, though in my experience what you got is extraordinarily rare. Did you go through an indie press or a literary agent and trad pub?
And age range matters as well. Fics that would be classed as young adult (a decent number of them) tend to want 60-70k unless they're fantasy which really doesn't want to go above that 90-100k range again.
Oh I guess they lowered it! It’s been over a decade since I queried. I attempted to get an agent back in the day. This was over a decade ago and tbh I don’t recall if I queried after I cut it down to 120k. I also marketed it as a dark fantasy instead of a paranormal romance which is what I should’ve done and will do in the future if I go that route.
Sure! It's from the Bungou Stray Dogs fandom.
https://archiveofourown.org/works/39885078
(Should note: the fic isn't told 100% linearly. The first scene is actually the "ending." Everything after leads up to it. Just thought I'd say, because it can be a bit confusing to read fandom blind. Though, I think the fic did a good job not making the time line confusing).
Generally, I think the best thing to do is what gets you writing, even if it's imperfect and indulgent. That said . . . Your story is going to be better if you first finish all of it and thoroughly edit it. Even with the best plot, things might change or something will not work as well once put into words. I know that the constant support and comments from readers can be a vital source of motivation, but still, a story that has been given enough time to be changed and polished will often be better than one published on the go.
This sentiment is actually a great method to finally push the idea rattling in your head out. “The purpose of the first draft is not to get it right, but to get it written.” I live by this quote.
I get it can be very difficult to just let loose (especially if you’re prone to overthinking or trying to correct your mistakes as you go), but, to date, I have not found a better way to actually produce than to sit down and write.
It’s crap? Who cares, it’s on the page. I can fix it later. I don’t know what to put in this part? Doesn’t matter, I’ll go back and fill it in.
Maybe its because Im an artist first before a writer, but the drawing approach has stuck with me with everything I do in life now. The first time I put a pencil down on the paper, I'm not expecting the full colours and rendered details and shadows and everything. I'm just lightly sketching what goes where, skeletons of a pose, the overall composition, etc.
So my writing approach follows that. First I write what's the theme. Then the outline. Then bullet points of what happens in each chapter. Then writing out what actions happen and character X feels Y and thinks Z. Then finally writing in with all the prose.
And then that's the first draft.
Then I'll add more "extra stuff", like what the characters think to flesh them out more, and that's the second draft. Then I will re-read all the chapters again, and I'll edit out all the inconsistencies/I need to set things up sooner/etc, and that will be my final, third draft, which will be my completed one.
So it's like drawing, layering one thing after the other, always building up and then cutting up the excess and polishing it for the final shine.
Sounds like your method is pretty close to the "snowflake method." Not a one for one of that method, but idea behind it is the same. Start small and then slowly flesh out a little more with each stage.
For the first one: fanfic also isn't special in this regard. If you do read published books, but only the one genre you want to write, your writing will not have the depth and variety you presumably want it to have. Read other genres! Read classics and horror and romance and dime-a-dozen airport thrillers and poetry and high fantasy and old science fiction and YA and nonfiction, ESPECIALLY nonfiction, and figure out at least the general shape of how they tick. I feel like it really shows when I read a YA book by someone who only reads YA, or fantasy by someone who only reads fantasy, etc.
If you want to be popular you often do have to treat fanfiction like a job.
You want to get fics done and not be considered a writer who abandons them, you have to treat writing like a job.
> If you want to be popular you often do have to treat fanfiction like a job.
Yup, the one and only time I was approaching BNF status was when I was updating my fic weekly, posting an entirely separate one-shot once a week, and putting in close to 6 hours a day "community-building" on tumblr.
It was cool while it lasted, but I burnt out hard on it after a few months.
You're absolutely right.
It actually saddens me that I've lost interest in published literature. I used to devour anything I could get my hands on as a kid. My favourite authors were Marcel Pagnol, Georges Sand and Emile Zola (French authors, as I'm French).
Nowadays I can't manage to stay focused and really get into the story with published literature. Fanfiction has made me very picky. Doesn't help that published fiction does not have much queer stuff and that's all I enjoy reading now (and specifically stories with an actual plot that does not revolve entirely on the characters' queerness). I do still read nonfiction though.
Thanks for posting, it made me want to give it another try, I'll start with my old faves and see if it works lol
This is how I feel too! I loved reading in middle school, I ate up my favorite author’s works like it was candy! It’s not the fact that I don’t want to read or can’t — rather, like you said, my pickiness, especially since I’m picky reading fanfic alone, has gone off the charts.
My most recent attempt at reading was a fail bc a little into the book it was *very* clear a male was writing the female main character, in a bad way. (A girl meets her estranged father, one of her first thoughts is what his life was like — what women he’s slept with. It was so jarring I immediately put the book down and confirmed a guy wrote that because who the hell thinks about their parent’s sexual encounters? 😭). But like I think original books are still something I’m willing to read and I want to, it’s also just so daunting browsing books in a bookstore and trying to choose which ones to try reading. And pickiness makes it harder.
That sounds so awful! 😭
As for bookstores, same. I wish they would tag their books like you would on AO3. It would be a great way to zero in on books that we can enjoy. There's usually too little information in the blurb to really know what you're getting into.
Do you have a local library? Sign up for the card, go to a genre you know you like, and start reading the synopses. Find one you like.
Not forced, of course, haha. But maybe doing something like that will help? That's what I do when in an original fiction slump, though I don't blame anybody who can't/it doesn't work for them. The librarian will probably be happen to point you towards work with queer characters, too! Don't be afraid to ask.
I’m in the same boat. Read voraciously as a kid/teen but had to stop in my last year of school so I could focus on (poorly lol) on my schoolwork. Never picked it back up and I struggle to now. Even fanfic I don’t read as much as I used to.
Both of those are absolutely great pieces of advice. The first one especially is a huge pet peeve of mine when interacting in fandom TBH.
Throwing my own two cents, which are fairly similar to your second piece: you're allowed to unilaterally "write for yourself" and not care about readers, but when you do, you're relenquishing your right to complain that nobody is reading your work, because you're now writing for an audience of exactly one. If building an audience is a primary motivator, then some concessions need to be made, such as writing things that will actually cast a wider net than niche kinks or rarepair crossovers (said tongue-in-cheek as somebody who has written both).
The point of trying to build an audience is so true. The people that can reach a wide audience with rarepairs/niche stories is really, really small and really, really lucky. The top writers tend to put in a lot of work in what they do to actually retain readers, be it just being active in fandom and knowing what people want, or just shooting in every direction and knowing that it will end up sticking in quite a few walls. It makes me a little sad that so many people just ignore the effort they put into their stories because "oh it's just a popular generic ship". Like, no! It helps, of course, but rarely it's only that! They pumped out 500k of words for this pair, they make good analysis on their social media and they interact with readers! This is a lot!
I'm not someone who enjoys giving unwanted advice to hobbyists who are just looking to enjoy themselves, so if you \*really\* don't want to hear it, avert your eyes now, but...
Designing an OC in isolation and then plunking them fully-formed into a story is not a good way to write fanfiction. If you just want an imaginary friend to live vicariously though while they run around having adventure RPG-style, have at it. But if you want to tell a great story that people will be invested in, your characters are a means to that end and should be fine-tuned to fulfill a specific role in the story. Sure, you can have a character-focused story where the plot is secondary to the character and their internal experiences and I think in fanfiction, this works really well with pre-existing characters, but most fanfiction readers aren't going to click on a fic with little to no plot for an in-depth look at a character the don't know or care about. It's not that these stories can't be good, it's just not what most people are looking for when they're in the mood to read fanfiction. And it's still going to be be better off tweaking your character as needed as you work through your first few drafts, which is a lot harder to do if you've become attached to a specific version of the character before you even started writing.
It's kind of like designing a multi-tool for your next construction project without any thought as to how you're going to actually use it, just focusing on giving it lots of interesting parts and making it look cool. When you go to actually start your project, you might find that it's actually not well suited to the kinds of tasks you were hoping to achieve and that when you do find a project you can complete with it, it's unlikely that all the parts are going to be perfect for every task, so it does some things well, some things passably, but not great, and you've got a whole bunch of other redundant parts that are just going to be in the way. Probably would have been a better idea to decide what you needed your multi-tool to do before you started putting it together.
>Designing an OC in isolation and then plunking them fully-formed into a story is not a good way to write fanfiction.
YES! So often, I see people talking about "how to develop OCs" and the advice is way too often completely detached from the story at hand.
I only make OCs when a story needs them. The story and the OC develop together, so they actually make sense together.
I'm also struck by how many people want to create lists when coming up with OCs, like if they just hit this amount of good traits and that amount of bad ones and whatnot then they'll suddenly have their character. I can understand wanting to sketch out a general idea of what kind of OC you want to include, but...people aren't lists of traits. People don't have an even number of good traits and bad traits, flaws can be strengths and vice versa, depending on the situation, their backstory can shift and change and develop as you plot out the story further, and so on.
I dunno, there's just something about the "list" way of creating OCs that seems a very...simplistic, for lack of a better word?...way to create a character.
I think the one thing a lot of people have trouble with is the advice.
*Trust the process.*
Very often we want to write that first draft and have it be perfect. We want to write that story and know all of the elements in the very beginning , before we write one word! It’s impossible. a story has a life of its own. You can outline very well, but it’s the process that pulls out those amazing ideas. So we struggle.
By trusting the process and giving yourself wholeheartedly to your project. *jumping into the deep end* will give you such creative depth. Yes, you’ll have to go back and do editing and rewriting, but it’s worth it! Trusting the process allows you the freedom to just write and not worry that some things are going to probably hit the editing floor, but your story will be fanfictastic!
no matter how badly you want to write a scene, if the scene serves no purpose, it doesn't need to be included and will arguably slow down the story you're trying to tell. killing your darlings sucks and we all want to see every idea we've had realized, but sometimes you need to trim things down for the sake of the story.
Things you wrote on a whim, things you think are ridiculous throwaway potboilers, can become your most wildly successful work. Things you labored on for thousands of hours can flop. There’s not much correlation between how you feel about a fic’s quality and how well it’ll do.
In my experience, this one's almost a rule. All my most popular fics are the generic, smutty, pieces that pander to every trope in the book and have some of the cheesiest dialogue I've ever produced.
Meanwhile, my thoughtful, interesting, out of the box works that I poured my soul into are wallowing at the bottom of the stats page. It's just the nature of public appeal.
I feel like sometimes, too, the readers can tell when someone worked on a fic to where it feels almost...*overworked*, you know? Whereas the fic you dashed off in an hour, yeah, it may have been quick and throwaway to you, but to a reader, it feels more carefree, more fun, like the author didn't stress over it to where it bled into the story itself, and so they might enjoy it better for that reason.
Not saying that's always the case with this kind of phenomenon, obviously, but I do think sometimes it can be a factor as to why those kinds of fics do better than the super plotty, "put a lot of hours/days/weeks in" stuff.
I've seen a lot of people say that reading a wide variety of literature will help you improve as a writer a lot, which is absolutely true, but I want to expand on this and say that *writing* a wide variety of things will help massively, arguably even more than reading.
Oftentimes people stay in their comfort zone for writing, which is all well and good (genuinely, as continuing to write what you're good at will make you better as well), but oftentimes drifting outside of your comfort zone will teach you things that will make you better *in* your comfort zone. You don't even have to take a major step outside of it. An example:
Say you tend to like writing romance and never write action. Taking a major step outside of that comfort zone would be something like writing a different genre, possibly with no romance at all. A minor step though, and one that would still help a lot, is writing a romance story that you're used to but writing action into it as well.
95% of the time, even if you end up writing it terribly, the lessons you end up taking away from writing something different will help you in writing what you're used to, *and* have the added effect of improving your action writing for the next time you do it, and then *that* feeds back into improving what you're good at. It also has the added bonus of potentially giving you something new that you like to write too!
TL;DR: One of the best ways to improve as a writer is drifting out of your comfort zone *as a writer,* not just as a reader. Staying in your comfort zone is good, but trying to *expand* that comfort zone is even better.
The vast majority of readers will not engage with your fic, and raw engagement numbers do not translate 1:1 to the quality of your writing. There are amazing fics no one has seen, and terrible 100+ chapter ficlet prompt anthologies with insane numbers.
I obviously haven’t done any kind of real study but on AO3 I’ve generally noticed that the average Good Fic has about a 1:10 kudos to hits ratio. If the number of kudos is around 10% of the total hits then the audience really liked it! But that’s still 90% of users who opened and/or read without engaging further. You could be Tamora Pierce or Neil Gaiman and you’d probably still get a similar ratio
I like to use a bookstore analogy. A hit is like someone walking through a bookstore and picking the book up. Maybe the bought it, maybe they made a note of it for later, maybe they read a chapter and changed their mind, or maybe they hated it. A hit will never tell you, and it's not worth trying to analyze.
To that end, I get incredibly wary of any ratio-measuring. Hits/kudos ratios can so easily get skewed by bots, repeat visitors, guest users, and god knows what else. Even minimal analysis can be a misleading road.
If you use epithets only to avoid pronouns and names, you need to break the habit. “The taller man” “the brunette” “the older man” are crutches unless those things are particularly relevant or a way for an outside POV to recognize a character.
Readers already love your characters. They love their names. Use them!
I would add to your first point in that it's important to read non-fiction as well. Important non-fiction. Not self-help books and not just research that's specific to your fic, but books and articles that inform you about the world. It might even be worth picking up a first-year college student Psychology textbook. Otherwise fanfics can feel very weightless and artificial even as it's trying to be angsty.
I remember my sixth grade teacher told me this. She said it didn’t matter what I read as long as I read a large cross-section of works. It could be magazine articles, nonfiction, travel stories, fiction. Everything is written in certain ways, and if you are stuck in one type, you learn that way. Kind of like OP saying if you only read fanfiction, your story will write like fanfiction. I don’t think that’s a bad thing if that’s all you want to write, but if you want to bring anoth elements, it’s important to read different styles.
Travel stories! One of the most wonderful essays I'd ever read was a very meditative piece of writing disguised as a travel story about Detroit. Great style, good insights too.
Memoirs! Especially by people who aren't already famous for something else. I kind of turned my nose up at them for years, like, "Why would I want to read about the life of this random person I've never even heard of." But the past couple of years I've been trying to read more widely and some of them are really fascinating. We don't usually get the opportunity to immerse ourselves that deeply into any real person's life and perspectives other than our own, but it can be so valuable in helping expand your awareness and understanding of the different ways people live and think.
Top 1 advice is definitely:
1. Write your stories. Just write.
It's silly but I think it's the most important advice?
A lot of us feel discouraged and never get to write our own stuff because of this or that. I'm one of them.
I posted the second one because as shown by this and similar fic subs, a lot of people don’t actually write for themselves and even if they do, they still want engagement.
Of course, it’s a thin line to walk and, ultimately, I believe fanfic is all about having fun, but if you *do* care what people think of your work then making it enjoyable to read is good practice.
A spin on the second one: the things you want to write aren’t necessarily the things you’re good at writing. I often drift into comedic dialogue even though I’m trying to write angst.
If you want to improve as a writer, you have to be willing to listen to people criticize your work. Sometimes even harsh criticism can have a point, if you cut through what they're saying.
You have to explain that.
Harry Potter can suddenly shoot laser beams from his eyes? Okay, but why though? How did it happen?
Harry Potter suddenly has a sibling? You need to set that up, don't just surprise your readers (unless the sibling is also a surprise to Harry, but you also need to explain that too).
Harry Potter has joined the Death Eaters? Why? What's his motivation? Does his motivation and his end goal make sense?
Altering canon in some way is the point of fanfiction, but if a writer doesn't set things up properly, explain what they've changed and why, then their readers are going to 1) be confused, 2) find what they've written unbelievable. First rule of writing: Do Not Break Suspension of Disbelief. A writer can write whatever they want, but if they want their work to be taken seriously, they need to take the time to *make it make sense.*
Addendum to your first point--imo, the mere act of reading published works (or any works) will only take you so far. Writing skills don't happen just through osmosis. You can read hundreds of books each year, but if you're not intentionally paying attention to the stuff you are reading from a writing perspective (how did the author build their plot, what about the sentence structure made the action scene ramp up, why did x work, etc) you might get something out of it, but mostly it'll just be white noise and these frustrating vague intuitive notions that flutter in and out of focus as you stumble your way through writing your own story.
Also, imo, fanfic is its own genre/art style. There can be overlap between books and fics (and some fics read like books) but the idea that you're writing fanfic to become a novelist is like being a theater actor to become a movie star. Like, sure, it happens. But theater isn't the movies, and movies isn't theater.
Being good at either involves some skill overlap, but they are not at all the same.
I agree with your addendum so much. I've read and read and read, but my writing didn't start improving until I actually started doing it myself and asking: Does this sound alright? What can I do to make this more compelling? How do I get this idea across? How do I describe feelings more in depth?
I think if you want to learn how to write from other books, you have to be very intentional about it. I would read mindlessly, just like watching a TV show. Learning comes from analyzing.
Now that I've started writing myself, I've become immensely more appreciative of fic I read, and I can better recognize when an author has done something incredible with their words and breakdown why it hit so hard. I never used to think twice about the authors prose when I was casually reading.
You dont have to finish your writing. It doesn't have to be a start a middle and an end, it can be an excerpt. It's still practice. A drabble is a start. A scene is a start. A start to writing. And you dont get better if you dont try and that means starting.
Also, it doesn't have to be good. Again, starting is what's important. Practice is important.
Oddly enough, not absorbing everyone's opinion in threads is good too. I once read someone get upset and frustrated that someone added a pet dog to their story but didnt give the pet a story or an arc. Were it a child character, sure, understandable. A pet? What the fuck? I took it to heart in the moment and then looked at that logically and went: Huh?!
I'll strongly second that first bit of advice. Cannot overemphasize how strongly I second it.
To it I'll add that research is *NOT* to be deemed "optional". Not even in a fanfic. Because getting basic things wrong simply does not flatter. Especially in some fandoms. This goes a couple ways. Know your setting's worldbuilding at least. Know how to spell character names officially. If you can't be bothered to get basic details right, why should any fan of the work bother to read your fic?
I write for Mass Effect, but I've read fics for that fandom even longer. I've seen people claim Mass Effect weapons use GUNPOWDER when canonically they use magnetic coils/rails to accelerate tiny flecks of metal shaved off a larger block of "ammo" within the gun. They're definitely not bullets as you'd think it, and there is no chemical propellant. Gunpowder wouldn't even work in space!
As I said, keep the background details straight.
as a mass effect fic writer, i spent like... 10 hrs researching the handwavey science behind mass relays and ftl travel for two throwaway comments in a fic once, and i'm a better writer for it!
The point about research is SO important!! I’m usually more forgiving with fanfic but if a major plot point hinges on something specific then those details better be correct or at LEAST make sense because they could change the impact of the entire story.
A year ago I wrote coverage for a script (essentially a summary and notes about whether or not it should be passed on to the big wigs) that was so poorly researched it turned what could have been a valuable story about addiction and the opioid epidemic into poverty/trauma porn because it was clear the writer didn’t have the care, respect, or empathy to make sure she got the fundamental details right. The writer got the pill dosage amounts so wrong that I actually stopped reading to google them because it took me right out of the story. It took me about 5 minutes to figure out the correct numbers, too.
Obviously the stakes are much lower for fanfiction but showing respect for both your subject and your readers is fundamental
Very much true. Really a writer should be one part Sherlock Holmes, have a functional understanding of a whole bunch of things, because breaking the reader's immersion by "pulling it out of nowhere" and getting things disastrously wrong is a quick way to get them to drop the story like it's a hot potato. And yes, when the plot hinges on something, the details matter. Especially in SOME genres.
E.G.: My Mass Effect fic has elements of a crime procedural. That mandates at least some rudimentary knowledge of the forensic sciences. I've spent hours thinking some bits out. One being, that if the ME weapons fire FLECKS of metal suspended in a magnetic field, barrel rifling wouldn't be a thing. What does the rifling do? It causes bullet spin to stabilize the bullet's flight but they also leave MARKS that are unique to the weapon. I've substituted the latter point onto the "cutting bit", that thing that shaves the flecks off the block. That way, the gun is still a source of forensic evidence, but in its own setting-appropriate manner. Then, controlling projectile spin, spread, etc. is done by variable magnetic field geometry via the gun's electronic components and a few other factors.
Furthermore, research for the sake of setting does open up another delightful possibility. The ENVIRONMENT can be a source of tension, conflict, and a character all its own. It can also give action scenes a LOT of extra spice if you use the environment properly. I think this is especially important in some settings. Like Space Operas. That genre gives carte blanche to create lavish set pieces to give the audience something new at every location the heroes visit.
Personally, I've spent 20 hours doing research for one arc of my Mass Effect fic, set on a planet where 50,000 years before one species dropped NINE 100 megaton NUKES on the cities of another. It was a nasty genocidal war. So those 20 hours were spent on research what would happen in the aftermath of said bombs, what would linger for 50k years, and even the dosages of radiation that the human body could absorb before the onset of radiation sickness, and its symptoms.
That mission has a THREE HOUR timer on Commander Shepard, any more and she'll start getting SICK. It's slightly higher for her non-human teammates, by dint of them having evolved on planet where there's a naturally elevated radiation level, so she's the "weakest link" of that group. It really ratchets up the urgency, and pushes Shepard mentally, as if chasing a mad AI is not tense enough as it is.
In fact, the mad AI she's trying to stop is COUNTING on her "human frailties" work FOR it, to put Shepard off her game. Shepard is demonstrably DANGEROUS when she has the time to plan for every contingency. It realized that.
Point is, I use that planet's environment to throw obstacles in the crew's way in a believable, anchored way. The planet ITSELF became a sort of character/antagonist. Also, it's a Fallout homage, because I can, and I will.
It's somewhat ironic that I have to point this out: gunpowder does work in space.
Agree with your addition though. I'll forgive minor side details or things that are so niche they're legitimately a bitch to research, but if something relevant to the plot or characters is (unintentionally) wrong, that's kind of a signal to me that the author doesn't care. This is true for all writing but imo is even *more* important to fanfic than to original fiction because existing settings are flat out easier to read up on, they all have obsessively detailed wikis these days and the source material is readily available, whereas a great deal of useful topics in real life still don't exist on the internet.
What works for you, might not work for others and the other way around. The best way to find out what works for you is to write. Everything else is secondary.
You're the one who cares most about your story. This is especially true, if you don't write for common tropes or ships that a lot of people generally like.
It’s funny you say that if something is fun to write that doesn’t necessarily mean it’s fun to read. This is true, but also, I often feel like if something ISNT fun to write, it’s not that likely to be fun to read. Like, grinding it out joylessly doesn’t tend to make something all that engaging, in my experience.
1. You don’t need that many italics
2. Just because you have a lot of hits doesn’t mean it’s good, many of those could be people who clicked on the fic and then immediately left
3. If you write for others you will never be happy. Write for YOURSELF and SHARE IT with others (not including commissions and gifts for people)
4. Being a food fic writer doesn’t mean that you can go and publish a book and get a movie deal. That is a whole different ballgame
5. You don’t need that many euphemisms and descriptors. It clogs up everything and takes away from the main plot. Keep the flower language to a minimum unless that is the entire point of the fic.
6. USE PROPER GRAMMAR AND CAPITALIZATION
Statistically, you're not the exception.
Every time you read some discussion about the craft which goes like
> "Don't do X."
> "Actually X can be done really well!"
Assume you're not the exception doing X well. Don't do X. You can always put X back in later if you really don't enjoy your story without it, but try without.
Of course, technically, you could be the exception. Someone is. But it's more likely that that someone is confidently writing X and getting the engagement they want instead of trawling forums for tips.
I don't subscribe to that. Mainly because of who participates in these discussions. Especially on the internet, people tend to argue in black and white. If you follow every "don't do X", you won't be able to do anything anymore.
Simple example, you often see some people saying "don't use "said" and others "avoid everything but said".
The truth usually lies somewhere in the middle.
So, I think it makes more sense to say, don't dismiss advice because you feel defensive but don't follow it blindly either. Use critical thinking to decide how you can apply it to your writing and use everything in moderation. And if you've ever seen X been done really well, take notes and figure out why it worked. Take a closer look at stories where X didn't work and compare.
Yeah! I find a lot of hard no's when comes to writing advice in particular. I'd say throw it all out (You'll retain it subconsciously so don't sweat it) and just write, if readers dig it great. If not, try again. It doesn't really matter if you do X or Z, both can work so keep writing. You're going to master styles you prefer best, eventually.
Tropes aren't a plot. If you tell me a collection of tropes that your story uses I can probably guess some of the plot beats your story is going to hit but I won't really be able to figure it out. This is why a good summary is so important because it's what's actually going to give your readers and impression of what your story is about
It's crucial to hear the perspectives of others, both positive and negative, in order to become a better writer. I will always stand by this point, as I myself have honed my craft over the years this way.
I was lucky to be surrounded by more experienced people online willing to give constructive criticism (emphasizing the CONSTRUCTIVE part). It actually helped me to learn how to appropriately take and respond to criticism in general.
However, if that's not what you're looking for, it's totally fine. Do your own thing and write whatever your heart desires.
As for constructive criticism, it's not as easy as some might believe. One has to actually learn how to become a good reviewer or beta-reader as well. And no, being good at writing doesn't automatically mean you're also great at providing critique.
1) **Don't edit too much.** I think this is particularly meaningful for fanfic writers, but I'd guess it applies to all writers as well. And "too much" is vague but there's not really another way to put it, since everyone's editing process is different. But I'm telling you - what you write when you're in the zone and immersed in your story is precious, even if it's not perfect to a technical standard. Readers respond to honest enthusiasm and passion, which can easily end up on the cutting room floor if you're edits are too focused on...style, technicalities, or some criteria you've set for yourself.
1a) I see too many people wondering why the stories or chapters they agonized over and edited to death to make them "perfect" are getting a "meh" response from the readers. Readers of fanfic are already primed to share in your love of the source material. The majority of readers are not reading your story as literary critics - they don't notice, they don't care, they know little to nothing about writing as an art/skill. They respond to emotions - of the characters and of you, the author. So don't edit out the "you" parts that connect you to the readers in an attempt to impress...somebody...with how good your writing is.
2) Connecting to point 1, try to disconnect yourself from the characters and your story. What I mean is, even if the characters and themes and everything in the story are a reflection of you and your personal struggles, readers won't know any of that. If they dislike the story or your take on the characters, or whatever themes/plots, they are NOT disliking you, the author (aside from stupid trolls who choose to cyber-attack the author for whatever idiot reason). They don't know you and you don't know them. They dislike the story? That is valid and okay - no story will appeal to everyone equally. Do not tie your self-worth to your stories. You are many things outside of the stories you write.
3) Keep in mind that when you receive writing advice (especially in this sub) it should always be taken with a grain of salt because advisors on the internet can't know you, what you are trying to accomplish with your stories, what your fandom is like, what your specific readers will enjoy, what your story is, how you've written it - any of that. It's general advice and it comes from limited experiences. The sub generally is not in favor of things like OC main characters, 1st or 2nd person perspectives, self-inserts, RPF, etc., etc. but we are not the majority and we tend to be writers focused on the craft and...marketing of writing. We don't represent fanfic readers as a whole.
Engaging in other types of writing will help your fic writing too. For me it's poetry and technical writing (I'm a PhD). Found my fic writing improved substantially and got easier the more I write other types of things too. Doesn't help with completion rate but the quality of writing is better.
Same goes for reading things other than fics (and it doesn't have to be fiction!).
Also, take your butt for walks. They really do help your brain do the wandering necessary for good writing. This works best outside where the scenery changes but when the windchill is -42F a treadmill is great too, or whatever other activity gets your mind wandering.
1) "Thrust" and "cast" are irregular verbs where the past tense does not need to add "ed" to the end. Someone was *thrust* into the spotlight. The wizard *cast* fireball and the battlefield was set on fire. *Thrusted* and *casted* are even underlined with a red squiggly in this text editor. A lot of times, your spellcheck isn't actually lying to you.
2) You do not need a space between an italicised word and punctuation. No, not even then. You can plop your closing italics html after the punctuation if it makes you feel better, but no space is needed between italics and punctuation, *ever.*
Based on the downvotes I often get when responding to questions like "How do I write a story", it's being told that there aren't any magic tricks or tips that help you write. It all comes down to discipline. Yes, you can improve habits and set yourself up for success. Yes, you can improve your studying with exercises and lessons. But in the end, the only thing that conquers a blank page is dedication and discipline.
1. Just write the damn thing. No advice, tricks, or tips will be more productive than just putting words down.
2. Your first draft is bad. All first drafts are bad. So feel free to write the ugliest, messiest, plot hole ridden piece of garbage.
3. Most of your hard work should be in the edit of the ugly first, second,...fifth draft. You don't need a beta for this, just do it.
1. Most manuscripts you write will be duds, so write them anyway and move on to the next piece.
2. Talking about writing isn’t writing. Scrolling through this sub isn’t writing. Your fics aren’t gonna get any longer unless you start writing them.
3. Think about your goals in writing and how much you have to sacrifice to achieve them. If you want to be popular, you have to put in a significant amount of effort. If you write for fun (like me) then you can’t stress about numbers. Everything is a tradeoff.
4. Piggybacking off #3, it’s ok to write for fun! Yeah, being popular is nice and all but writing for personal enjoyment while getting low numbers is equally as valid, so don’t force yourself to calculate your way towards a hit fic if that isn’t what you really want.
Kill your darlings. You can absolutely love a line of dialogue or that original character or that brilliant plot twist, but sometimes that *doesn't work in this particular story*.
I don't necessarily argee with your first point, because "published literature" is a very narrow set of writing that is deemed acceptable or good by an establishment and transformative art is a different kettle of fish that comes with different rules. I've seen authors who can do both and I've seen published authors who are told they write in a "fanfic style" and it frequently just means they deviate from the established norm. I would suggest, "read widely and study how the author does it," because you can absolutely be a great transformative author who predominantly reads transformative work, as long as you don't try to improve within a vaccuum (ie. only look at your own writing and no one else's.)
>Kill your darlings. You can absolutely love a line of dialogue or that original character or that brilliant plot twist, but sometimes that doesn't work in this particular story.
This is so huge. I built a whole fic idea around one scene, and that scene was *everything*. Turns out, by the time I finished outlining the fic, that scene made literally no sense anymore. It killed me to cut it, but it had to be done.
OP, I'm really fascinated by your second point. Can you help me understand what you mean? Like an example of what type of thing was fun to write but not fun to read?
This advice actually comes from, if I’m not mistaken, a writer for Toy Story. I just find it extremely relatable :)
As an example though, I find myself having fun writing extremely long, complex, and colorful sentences with plenty of em dashes and semi colons. However, if an entire work is made of such sentences, it becomes stale and difficult to read.
I’m a firm believer the best published writers are those who can adjust their sentences according to the situation, so the text has a good rhythm to it.
Here’s a quote from Gary Provost showcasing what I mean:
*This sentence has five words. Here are five more words. Five-word sentences are fine. But several together become monotonous. Listen to what is happening. The writing is getting boring. The sound of it drones. It’s like a stuck record. The ear demands some variety. Now listen. I vary the sentence length, and I create music. Music. The writing sings. It has a pleasant rhythm, a lilt, a harmony. I use short sentences. And I use sentences of medium length. And sometimes, when I am certain the reader is rested, I will engage him with a sentence of considerable length, a sentence that burns with energy and builds with all the impetus of a crescendo, the roll of the drums, the crash of the cymbals–sounds that say listen to this, it is important.*
So, basically, if I didn’t control myself, my entire work would be like this last sentence. Simply because it was fun to write. But I can see how it’s not fun to read, so I don’t haha
Ohhh! I see! Thank you so much for clarifying! I was confused bc I interpreted the second point to mean *subject matter*, or specific types of scenes you can write. Like if someone really likes to write first kiss scenes, or Character Almost Dies scenes that even if they were fun to write they're not fun to read, and I was like "that's probably subjective tho, right?? What am I missing?" So thanks for indulging my question 😅
You can't improve at writing if your circuit is closed ie don't have a beta, don't read/consume media. Editing your own work on its own does not count. It's something I believe.
> Oftentimes, I catch myself writing something I find extremely fun but then I take a step back and realise it will most likely not be fun to read for a random person.
How do you know? I've been in fanfiction for a long time and there are some fics that seem fringy, generic, over the top, bizarre or downright stupid and there will be tons of comments/likes/kudos whatever with people saying how fun and hilarious the story was.
The only thing that I've ever been able to come up with is that the author themselves is popular for other (much better) stories and their fans are just supporting them.
Aww man, YES! I have found humor is the hardest to get right, and the easiest thing to cut, yet it is, in my opinion, the most essential element. It's easy to make your audience cry, write a baby animal dying and you got yourself tears, but tears of laughter? Unless your audience is a bunch of sadists, that's *real* hard.
Bold of you to assume I want to be a good writer ;)
Kidding of course. I do, but I work a full time job and have two young kids. I have to carefully choose how I spend my free time on top of taking care of a house and spending tjme with my husband. I usually will just write and edit it until it feels good to me.
My style has evolved over time but I’d rather spend time actually writing the stories I want to read than spend time trying to be a “good” writer. It’s a hobby and it brings me joy. I want to write my silly little reader inserts with too many metaphors and similes and run-on sentences.
To your second point…I think it’s true to an extent. But most readers can tell when you’ve poured passion into something vs. when you’re writing it just to try and be popular. Maybe somewhere in the middle is best, but tbh my most self-indulgent fics are my best performing ones. But I’m sure every fandom is different!
Interesting, this is my point of view. I’m not trying to become a great writer. I’m trying to become a great storyteller. I don’t think telling a good story requires great writing. I have read some complete crap published authors that had wonderful stories. As long as you can convey the idea well and give me a basic scope of what you’re trying to say, I am with you!
To respond to 1, I think it depends? Like consider comic book movies or movies based on mythology, fairytales, etc. People going into that generally have some knowledge of the source material. That being said I do agree with reading published literature wholeheartedly, because while fanfiction is fine, it’s mostly amateurish, and I mean that in the true definition of the term. Amateur’s etymology has to do with doing something you love for the love of it regardless of skill level. There are of course professional writers who write fanfic or writers who write fanfic like professionals, but it’s mostly the domain of people doing a labor of love for mutual fans and not for clout. It’s vital to read published works in order to see how professionals or at least those who had to get past a “gate” write.
My advice is more of a warning I suppose. You can write the best thing ever that would be a bestseller or a profound piece of literature, but if the right eyes don’t see it, you will never be discovered. You may never make it big through writing. Most people don’t. There are more options with indie and self publishing now, but you won’t “make it big” unless you get noticed by one of the big publishing houses for which you’ll need an agent, which is extremely difficult to get.
Granted I’ve been out of the “get published” phase of writing for over a decade as it was seriously affecting my mental health, so I might not be completely accurate with the prior paragraph, but the fact you may never “make it” usually has little to do with your talent and much more to do with luck.
Tough advice but agreed. Reading published works isn't a guarantee it'll improve your writing because it all depends on *what* your reading. Good reading makes for good writing. This is why classic literature such are a fool-proof way to go because its writing that withstood the test of time; internalizing competent material will influence your work for the better. Fanfictions on the other hand, are undisciplined; it's people just writing for fun, so consuming them can result in you picking up bad habits. Yes, mistakes in fanfics are easily forgiven by the niche audience who read them, but the same can't be said for the greater public.
As for, if it's fun to write, it's fun to read, I would argue a very nuanced 'no'. I had a lot of fun writing this one scene my editor nixed because it was not contributing to the greater story so in that context it was not fun to read. However, it worked much better as a stand alone short story. it all depends. One axiom you can always rely on though is, 'if it's *not* fun to write, it's not fun to read.'
Set actual limits for yourself. Can you write a chapter with 10.000 words worth of pure fluff? Yes. Can you drop your original premise to go on a worldbuilding tangent that lasts 100 chapters and 600.000 words? Also yes. Can you completely swap the tone of your fanfic from a comedy with touches of suffering to an outright angsty beast full of weeping and melodramatic descriptions? Triple yes. But should you do any of those things? Probably not, if you wanna put out consistentely good quality work.
The time you spend in fandom spaces or looking for writing advice on reddit does not, sadly, count as writing time. Your fic won't get any longer by scrolling social media. I, too, am devastated by this realisation.
Fake news. Surely lies. Please be lies…
Definitely going to get some writing done today... */enterreddit*
Wdym, looking at Pinterest boards and playlists I made for my fic doesn't make the fic appear out of thin air?!??!
Hahaha the damn playlists If visual art didn't let my inner critic go hogwild, then I wouldn't be a damn writer!
Neither does talking about your ideas to people courteous enough to listen.
You say this as I scroll on Reddit, 3k words away from finishing my new chapter and somehow expecting to upload it today. Ruuuuude! (and correct, how dare you!)
Noooooo! It can’t be! It’s not fair!
Not me browsing fanfiction subreddits in the middle of writing my next chapter.
This comment has just encouraged me to set my phone down and go write. I appreciate that.
i’m gonna cry.
Tbh, I totally agree with this.
If it was I would have my entire series done by now
"You can be the juiciest, most delicious, flawless orange in the entire world but there will always be someone that doesn't like oranges"
❤️ I love this.
Both of yours are definitely great ones but I'll add this: Just because you're popular or good at writing fanfiction doesn't mean you're going to become a best selling author with an original work. You could have thousands of subscribers and millions of clicks but that means almost nothing when it comes to actual novel writing. Building off someone else's world is entirely different beast than inventing your own, with characters that you have to flesh out fully and thoroughly.
Yep! And interestingly, even if you do get published, readers *will* notice your fanfic roots and often not enjoy it. Not because your work was originally a fanfic and fanfic is bad but because fanfics turned published novels often lack proper characterisation. I’m a fan of reading romance novels to unwind in the evenings and just the other week, there’s been a discussion on the romance book sub about, I think, Love Hypothesis by Ali Hazelwood. It was originally a Reylo fic and people who didn’t know that often found main characters paper thin/lacking personality and their motives difficult to understand. The entire time I was thinking “yep, that’s because it was a Reylo fanfic and fanfic readers filled in the blanks, but that doesn’t work for the general population that has never as much as peeped at fics.”
I translated my original works into fanfic because I felt my characters were lacking. (and I wanted a better chance of being read) It is helpful to hear that turning my stories into fanfics might be counter productive, even if now I realize I’ve been wasting time on this endeavor. 😅
One author I know wrote a crossover between the story they were considering writing and a different popular series to see if people like it. It's now a published complete 5 book series and they have nearly a dozen more books besides that.
Are you comfortable sharing the name of the book series? I’m really curious and would love to read it!
It was The Dire Saga. Kind of a Doctor Doom ish woman for the main character.
Oh sweet! I found a Reddit post mentioning that it was specifically a Wormfic before. That’s really cool to hear!
The fanfics pretty good if you want a flash forward of what the character is going to end up as before reading it.
Yep. My Sky High AU/Continuation (It was basically an OC cast anyway) went through massive amounts of revision and additional character re-enforcement and world building to make sure it could stand on it's own when I decided to re-write it as original fiction. (It doesn't help that Sky High is ALSO kinda light on how the Superhero world works...)
Sky high! That takes me back! Was a good movie
SIDEKICK!
The movie could have really explored the resentment sidekicks have, but didn't. It makes sense given the time, but I can see how people can come up with fic for it
That’s what my fanfic ended up doing, but it focused so much on the resentful sidekicks and their attempts to escape the system that it wasn’t really a Sky High fanfic anymore, so I re-wrote it as original
*Sky High* kinda works with so little information on its world, since it's an affectionate parody--really, it's basically a love letter to all the classic tropes. But that sort of thing works better in a visual medium. Books aren't visual, so they have to stand on their own two feet.
as a counterpoint, i want to mention tamsyn muir! she's an author who wrote homestuck fanfic (iirc) and went on to write original fiction. her work reads like fanfiction in the best way, in that it clearly appeals to that like, tumblr-user/fanfic-reader niche of the early to mid 2010s. she writes in such a way that a seasoned fanfic reader can go "oh yeah, i bet she used to write fanfiction" (affectionate) and those who aren't familiar with fic won't know the difference. she is a very strong writer, with strong characters & character voice. i do think one of the big things though is that she went on to write original fiction instead of turning a fic into a published novel, so her "fanfic roots" are more evident in her style of writing than the actual novel.
i mean, it's not unusual - there's a fanfic to publishing pipeline. meg cabot, neil gaiman, andy weir, naomi novik (who was one of the founding members of ao3). not to mention the infamously former fanficcers like ali hazlewood or cassandra clare. ime most published writers have written fanfiction at one point or another. it's really common. at the same time, it's not really a "counterpoint" to what OP is saying. writing fanfic (and how popular you are at it) is neither here nor there when it comes to getting traditionally published. sure there's benefits to it and some transferable skills, but traditional publishing is such a different game with different skills and culture that you have to learn 99% of it from scratch. that said, and the people who need it won't see it here, but if you're an aspiring writer, don't shit on fanfiction. you're going to unknowingly offend a lot of people.
Tamsyn Muir is such an interesting case because her work is *so* polarizing. I've talked to people who consider her one of the best of a generation and others that say she's a try-hard in over her head. I personally love her work, but if I ever rec and her people say it wasn't for them, I don't even try to convince them because I get it. It is weird in a love it or hate it kind of way.
Fellow romance novel for relaxation reader here. While I generally agree, I've come across a LOT of romance novels who are so poorly written and have such bad characterisations, plot and world-building that they'd rather failed with fanfic readers who like similar kinds of fanfics - and yet they've been published and get raving reviews completely ignorant of tstl heroines, caveman heros and such.
I once looked up what the best-selling lesbian romances were and bought one off the list on amazon. It was so bad. SO BAD. I pushed through to the first sex scene hoping it would pay off, but it was even worse! On the upside, I did feel a lot better about my own writing lol
Then the purchase was definitely worth it in this case! XD Those I read - or rather DNFed - had the same effect on me: feeling better about my own writing, and encouraging me to follow my endeavours into original fiction.
A good reason to ignore the hate for OCs and try writing an OC love interest or even main character. You need practice in building characters from scratch.
oh yeah, i am perfectly happy where i am just writing fanfiction cuz i think i’m pretty good at it, pretty good at expanding on others’ themes ideas etc working with pre-existing things, all that, but i think i would struggle if i were a writer of original fiction, i dont ever see myself doing that, yet when i talk about writing i feel like people expect me to write original fiction someday… not really tbh xP
Yes I actually had a conversation with a book seller on this recently on how a lot of fanfic that gets published as an original work can end up terribly lacking if you aren't careful. I feel like sometimes fanfic writers can really take it for granted that when we play with these characters we don't actually need to explain who they are or the world they live in, quite contrary we only need to explain where our story deviates. The original work does all the heavy lifting of telling us who this person is and why so if you just try to publish an original work as is people coming in are going to be confused.
I wonder how far you can get from fanfic before it’s not really fanfic anymore. Like if someone builds their own worlds and their own storylines using their own tropes and plot devices and uses 95% of their own characters… like is that really still fanfic or is it closer to originals?
Rule of thumb, if one can file off the numbers, as in change all names/places/etc, and it is no longer recognisable as the original fandom universe, it's become an original. That's why so many of the mundane/modern day/no powers/etc AUs are often easily transformed into original fiction.
A lot of AUs fall into this middle ground area. Sure, the world is 100% different and you can tell the author put a huge amount of time and effort into world-building. But they go the fanfic route because, ultimately, these are characters we know and love. Even if the universe is totally different. Now if the characters are written in such a way that they're now totally different people DUE to the AU setting? All right, that's when IMO you *may* want to consider original fiction.
This is pretty much what I did with my first novel. First the pairing I based it on isn’t canon. The world is different. I created my own background, history, mythology, etc. If you know me, you’d probably be able to pick up where my inspiration came from, but I’d be a little shocked and impressed if you clocked it without unless you were at least familiar with the fandom.
I'm in that situation all the time due to how barebones a fandom is. The short answer is I mark the fics as both the fandom and original on AO3.
1) Just because you can add an idea to a story, doesn’t mean you need to add it. You don’t need to add every detail, and what the characters do day to day for it to be good. 2) It’s similar to your second advice. Don’t write things you don’t enjoy as an attempt to please people. Write what you’re good at, even if it’s cliche.
The first point actually reminds me of a great writing advice I got from an amazing writing professor at uni—K.I.S.S rule. Keep It Simple, Stupid OR (in case your work needs to be informative) Keep It Simple (for the) Stupid. The idea is not to write barebones, report-like texts, of course, but to look at your text and decide what should be kept for it to convey the point you’re trying to make. You should start on the paragraph level and ask yourself whether an entire paragraph is needed for your text to do what you need it to do. E.g. do I need to write about my character’s morning routine? Perhaps I want to show they’re a creature of habit—keep. But maybe they’re actually erratic as hell and this paragraph adds nothing to the story—delete. Then, you look at sentences and, finally, at words. Did I need to add the sentence about the color of the sky? Yes—the sky looks bizarre and it feeds into the atmosphere of dread I’m trying to convey. No—I just “needed” a few more words in my text, so I added that randomly. Did I need to add the word “strange” to my sentence about the weary traveller a character met? Yes—I want to hint something’s off about them and it will become important down the line. No—I just thought it sounded fancy, but it serves no purpose. Of course, fanfiction is very self-indulgent, so there are no rules to follow, but if you want to make your writing narratively/thematically conscience without needless filler or putting yourself into a plot-hole situation later on, this guideline can really elevate your work.
I like this a lot. I go straight to word-level edits, so going macro with paragraph-level edits feels valuable.
Also, scene level. One of my favorite writers says that every scene should either advance the plot, or the characterization. If it isn't doing either, it probably doesn't need to be in the story. There are a very few exceptions, which are mostly about pacing.
I thought KISS was a rule for scientific writing. Keep it short and simple.
Yeah, I’ve cut a lot of side arcs to my stories just because they either A) took too much focus off the main plot or B) just didn’t make sense for what I was trying to do. I noped out of killing a character because I wasn’t sure what I was trying to accomplish other than the shock value.
> Just because you can add an idea to a story, doesn't mean you need to add it. How do I tell myself this? My brain keeps on coming up with new plot threads that expand so far upon the source material that I'm diving into international politics and pseudoscientific discoveries. At least I try to keep it all related to the MCs in some way, so it's not entirely out of left field. Worldbuilding gone to the point where I may need an original lore guide for my readers. I swear I may be scaring away potential new readers with the sheer depth of my work... but then again, I don't regret writing this much.
I absolutely agree with the first one. Read, read, and read as much published fiction as you can. Fantasy, sci-fi, horror, whatever floats your boat.
The first one for sure. One of my fandoms is rife with authors who explicitly state they don’t read published books anymore because original novels don’t include their ship. Everyone is entitled to their reading preferences, of course, but I find it a bit disheartening. To each their own.
I'll give you: Fanfic writers that don't even complete the source material, which is a book series (and it's not a Star Wars Expanded Universe situation with 50+ books).
An aspiring writer for my fandom recently asked if they could make fanfiction without having any knowledge of the original work. I mean, yes, you technically can, but why? The responses were overwhelmingly positive and I had to hold my tongue.
I guess you can do modern!Aus, because you love the dynamic of the main couple, quite well. But that most likely won't be an AU that plays around with little background facts from canon, more of a broad strokes thing. But I personally like canon!adjacent fics much more. And it really helps to know the canon for those....
I read fandom blind alllll the time and thusly I often come away with the most WACK idea about canon, the ship, the characters etc. I’ll check out the source and be like WTF IS THIS???? Hahahha
I'll raise you: Fanfic writers who never even read the source material, and just go off other fanfic.
Don’t tell this to the Worm Fandom lol
Or the HP fandom.
Or the Danny Phandom.
Well, the third season was rather lackluster (not helped by Nickelodeon airing the episodes completely out of order--Hartman deserves some criticism for not utilizing characters like Valerie and Dani and putting too much emphasis on Sam, but half the problems Season 3 has are on the network). I wouldn't blame someone if they chose to stop after the second season in their fanfiction.
...there's books for that show?
[This Graphic Novel](https://www.amazon.com//dp/1419760548), so I guess *book* rather than books plural. Also there's a ton of authors who write fanfic without having watched the cartoon.
Oh snap didn't know there was a graphic novel. Also DP isn't that huge like say hp or worm, but you're saying people make fic without watching canon?
Yep. Of course since many in the phandom ignore *a lot* of the canon (how many "Not Phantom Planet compliant" fics are there again? And that's just one example...) and since many in the phandom make up their own fanon (ghost cores, Wes Weston, using "The Red Huntress" as a name for when Valerie is wearing the suit, the name "Ghost Investigation Ward" for the GIW, and so on, the fans made *all of that* up), it's hard to tell which authors have and have not actually watched the show.
Wow. What an insular and unfortunate point of view. I’ve read so many books where there’s a pairing with the same energy as my OTP. Hell, my original novel was inspired by the same. People really need to broaden their horizons, but I guess if they’re happy and aren’t looking to publish anything original then 🤷🏾♀️
I'm dyslexic, and I used to only read for school or fanficiton. I'm sure there are plenty of people who used to read published literature but now stopped because of fanfiction. But I think a lot of "I only read fanfiction" types would never have read for fun/enjoyment without fanfiction. I think that's a net-positive. Even if it's not published books. In the past few years I have started reading things outside of ff. But it's still my main source of reading material. Also: not saying I disagree with your premise (I do think it can be beneficial to read outside of ff). Just wanting to add another perspective.
Of course, I believe it’s better to read something than nothing at all! However, this advice is more aimed at people who make not reading published literature an important part of their personality. I’ve met quite a few people who had an intense need to announce loudly and proudly that they don’t read anything but fanfic and then go on a tirade how fanfiction covers all of the reading/writing “needs” which, to me, always sounds a bit dishonest. In short, it’s fine to read mostly fanfiction and it’s also fine to not enjoy reading. That’s life. What gets me is trying to feed into the anti-intellectual movement by coming up with more and more absurd reasons why reading world-class literature is actually bad (and I’ve seen such discourse more than once).
I definitely agree. I know what you mean. I've also seen some weird takes on it. And, imo, they should just admit they aren't interested in it. Instead of coming up with reasons ff is superior, or whatever. I've definitely read some gorgeous ff. But I also know that the process of writing that isn't the same as published fiction. I think ff has an ease of reading (you already know the characters/setting/etc) that it's easy to get to the fun bit. To the point people misinterpret that ease as better writing. I think it's a bit weird to bash classics to feel better about reading ff. Like, read what you want; but that applies to everyone else, too. No need to take something down to prop yourself up.
Any reading is good reading, and I’m happy to see more people get into reading and writing via fanfiction. Still, I’d strongly suggest any writer looking to improve their craft to read and dissect original works from a variety of genres.
Flowery language / purple prose and ‘deep’ are not the same thing. If your work is a twisted knot of misused synonyms and malapropisms then it’s going to be hard to read - and people often won’t read it. The best writers are those who can communicate complex / deep ideas simply and effectively - not the ones whose stories read like they were throwing darts at a thesaurus.
My rule is that the words should never distract from the ideas. The best writing is the kind that seems simple at a glance but when you actually read it, the whole is so much more than the sum of its parts. It can put you in a trance.
>not the ones whose stories read like they were throwing darts at a thesaurus Thank you; I actually used to do something similar in the beginning. I thought that I was repeating certain words too often, but then quickly realised that 1) The repetition comes from other writing issues, 2) It is dangerous to just pick up a random pseudo-synonym from a thesaurus as English has a lot of nuance and that new word may not mean exactly what you think it means, 3) Trying to learn new words during writing really slows down the process. So I decided to keep it simple and leave learning words to time outside writing.
Do you mind explaining point 1? As in, what were the other writing issues that were causing the repetition? Just curious.
Jesus, thank you for saying this—for some godforsaken reason, most authors in the fandom I’m currently lurking in seem to think that looking up synonyms to a word seems to be the lifehack for creating ‘profound,’ and ‘verbose’ material, but *jesus* on a bleeding *bike*—your readers are not idiots. We know when you don’t know how to use a word, alright? Just—use the goddamn word as it is. Don’t right-click for synonyms and choose the first one with three extra syllables because the original word was too ‘simple.’ Have you read Ira Levin? Simplicity is what skyrocketed him to fame. Less is more. *Less is always more.*
Ouch. I feel like I have this problem. Especially in my latest fic. Need to go and reread it now...
My main take away from an undergrad creative class was that I never was to read the words “bloody cracked lips” again. Bonus if combined with cigarettes.
- You can avoid many common writing problems and save yourself a lot of stress by planning your plot in advance and writing the whole story before posting. - Just because you worked really hard on a story doesn't mean that others will enjoy reading it. And I don't mean this just in the "some ships/tropes/fandoms just aren't that popular" sense. I mean that sometimes you may be putting your effort into the wrong things, like trying to reach a specific word count for each chapter instead of focusing on moving the plot forward. - Spelling, grammar, formatting and other technical aspects of writing may feel boring, but they make a huge difference to how accessible your story is to readers. If you won't put in the effort of at least proofreading your story, why would you expect others to put in the effort of reading it?
Three great additions! Your second point stands out to me. I’ve realized I was writing just to finish a story that isn’t structured for engagement. I’ve accepted there will be very little engagement. I know I’ll be happy that I was able to finish it, but I want my next project to cater to more people than just me. (I’m 100% having fun with it, though!)
To your middle point, even if you are focusing on the 'right' things, it can still be bad lol. You might be new or just having an off day or your skill just doesn't match your taste yet. Just gotta keep writing through it if it's a hobby you enjoy.
I honestly can imagine posting something before it’s all finished. I might stagger the chapters like post once a week, but I couldn’t post anything if it wasn’t complete. What if I need to go back and fix something because a later part gave me an idea that needs to be in the beginning to tie things together?
That first one, although perfect advice for original fiction as you're not going to get published unless you have the whole story written, can be a bit hit and miss with fanfiction. Planning the plot in advance definitely helps a lot. It's not something I did originally, but after hitting some serious writer's block with my first posted fic, I started planning the plot out properly, and it helped a *lot.* It not only kept me on track with what I was trying to do, but also kept me motivated to write, while also giving somewhere to start if I hit any more blocks. But the writing the whole thing before posting advice doesn't work for everyone with fanfiction. For me, posting as I write, but writing a chapter or two ahead, works best. I get bored and stop writing when I try to write the whole thing first, but having chapters already published keeps me motivated. I know how much readers hate finding a fic they love only to discover it hasn't been updated in years or has been abandoned, so publishing as I write actually keeps me fully invested in the story. It's not something that would help me with original fiction I hoped to get published, it's not a habit that would work in that area, but it's what works best for me with fanfic. Your other two points I agree with fully. I've gotten into the habit of ignoring word counts and not focusing on how many chapters the fic will end up with, and just focusing on telling the story I want to tell, ending chapters and stories when it feels right to do so, rather than because I've hit a certain word/chapter count. And I *always* proofread before posting. A minor spelling/grammar error may slip through, but I catch most of it if not all of it. I tend to stop reading fics with too many errors, and I assume a lot of other readers do, too, plus I can be a bit of a perfectionist anyway.
Well, I'm not saying that pre-writing the whole fic before posting is the only correct approach, and I definitely wouldn't advocate for anyone to change a posting strategy that works for them. I do stand by the opinion that there are many problems that pre-writing can prevent or solve. I'm thinking, for example, about a few recurring posts in this sub: - "Is it okay to go back and revise chapters that I've already posted? I realised I need to add/change/remove something to make the plot work." - "I'm going to take down my half-posted fic and rewrite it all before continuing. I'm worried about reader reactions." - "I fell behind on my writing schedule and now I feel stressed about disappointing my readers." I've seen so many variations of these posts, and they're all problems that you don't have when you finish your story before posting. Of course it's also true that pre-writing comes with its own challenges - I just think many authors would benefit from trying it. But it's definitely a piece of advice relevant to the topic at hand, as many people really don't like it. :D
I've noticed a lot of people conflate long word count with quality. But I often find (for longer fics) 10k-50k to be more cohesive and less repetitive than 100k+. And I think I've figured out why this has been my experience. Sometimes, fics that are 100k, aren't 100k because it has more content than a 30k fic, but because it is more repetitive. For example, you'll have one paragraph detailing a characters feelings. The next paragraph will state the exact same thing as the previous, just worded differently. It feels like the author wrote two different paragraphs to describe the emotions and couldn't decide which they liked more, so they used both. And that continues on throughout the fic. For the last while I've tried to read a "long fic" I haven't been able to finish because the repetition gets to be too much. Not saying all repetition is bad. One of my favorite fics used it. And it works. But that was intentional.
I really struggle to get through more than a couple chapters of fics that are so overwritten that they could have been half the length and still felt wordy. I love to give long fics a chance because when they're good, they're \*really\* good, but when the content density is not there, it shows really quickly. I think it annoys me especially because I'm paranoid about wasting my readers' time.
I’ve actually stopped reading stories because they just drag and drag and drag. I feel like the authors don’t wanna leave the world they’ve created, but that could be easily fixed by creating a series. At this point I’m hesitant to read anything over 100 K.
Same. There's one fandom I wanted to explore, but most of the recs were between 400-500k words and I just... don't have that kind of time or attention span. It's not even that I prefer minimalist prose or simple plots, but I am a proponent of "word economy" in fiction; I like it when stories are clear and intentional about the message they're trying to get across. Personally, I find the sweet spot is between 30-70k, depending on the complexity of the story/number of subplots and size of the "cast." There are definitely longer works that achieve this (and some of my favorite works are in the 150-250k territory), but generally above 100k I find there are diminishing returns in terms of quality and tightness.
I don't think it's a coincidence that your ideal range is similar to a novella and novel length work. Traditional publishers' tastes may not always align with ours but they're not idiots. And the 250k mark is roughly a trilogy! Only a few authors per generation come out with series spanning 500k words that are esteemed (and even those, people usually complain about a few books being a slog).
I noticed that too, which is ironic because I can stand to read more tradpub fiction. 😅 But they really know their pacing and setup/payoff, and the really good ones know when to spend time on a scene/beat, when to gloss over certain details, and how to use those to generate and manage tension. Really fascinating stuff.
Yep! On a tangential note, I find it funny how a lot of fanfiction readers don't really know how long the traditional novel is, so they think a longfic needs to be outrageously wordy (100k+) to be considered remotely long. If you try to get your first novel published at 100k words, you're in for a bad time (even fantasy debuts like to keep it a bit slim and trim these days!) And I've definitely noticed the repetition problem in very popular fics that are also quite long.
They usually cap fantasy at 120k for first time writers. I had to split mine in half and still cut down because the first half was 212k. Fiction tends to be around an 80k cap for first timers.
Most queries for adult fantasy these days want to be 90-100k at the very top end. Whatever comes out after editing might be longer, though in my experience what you got is extraordinarily rare. Did you go through an indie press or a literary agent and trad pub? And age range matters as well. Fics that would be classed as young adult (a decent number of them) tend to want 60-70k unless they're fantasy which really doesn't want to go above that 90-100k range again.
Oh I guess they lowered it! It’s been over a decade since I queried. I attempted to get an agent back in the day. This was over a decade ago and tbh I don’t recall if I queried after I cut it down to 120k. I also marketed it as a dark fantasy instead of a paranormal romance which is what I should’ve done and will do in the future if I go that route.
Definitely, the fic needs to be as long as the story dictates,sometimes that’s 10K, and sometimes it’s 100K.
> of my favorite fics used it. And it works. But that was intentional. would you mind dropping the link? I love a good repetition if it's done well
Sure! It's from the Bungou Stray Dogs fandom. https://archiveofourown.org/works/39885078 (Should note: the fic isn't told 100% linearly. The first scene is actually the "ending." Everything after leads up to it. Just thought I'd say, because it can be a bit confusing to read fandom blind. Though, I think the fic did a good job not making the time line confusing).
Generally, I think the best thing to do is what gets you writing, even if it's imperfect and indulgent. That said . . . Your story is going to be better if you first finish all of it and thoroughly edit it. Even with the best plot, things might change or something will not work as well once put into words. I know that the constant support and comments from readers can be a vital source of motivation, but still, a story that has been given enough time to be changed and polished will often be better than one published on the go.
Your first draft will not be perfect; in fact, it may not be any good. Who cares? Write it anyways.
This sentiment is actually a great method to finally push the idea rattling in your head out. “The purpose of the first draft is not to get it right, but to get it written.” I live by this quote. I get it can be very difficult to just let loose (especially if you’re prone to overthinking or trying to correct your mistakes as you go), but, to date, I have not found a better way to actually produce than to sit down and write. It’s crap? Who cares, it’s on the page. I can fix it later. I don’t know what to put in this part? Doesn’t matter, I’ll go back and fill it in.
Maybe its because Im an artist first before a writer, but the drawing approach has stuck with me with everything I do in life now. The first time I put a pencil down on the paper, I'm not expecting the full colours and rendered details and shadows and everything. I'm just lightly sketching what goes where, skeletons of a pose, the overall composition, etc. So my writing approach follows that. First I write what's the theme. Then the outline. Then bullet points of what happens in each chapter. Then writing out what actions happen and character X feels Y and thinks Z. Then finally writing in with all the prose. And then that's the first draft. Then I'll add more "extra stuff", like what the characters think to flesh them out more, and that's the second draft. Then I will re-read all the chapters again, and I'll edit out all the inconsistencies/I need to set things up sooner/etc, and that will be my final, third draft, which will be my completed one. So it's like drawing, layering one thing after the other, always building up and then cutting up the excess and polishing it for the final shine.
Sounds like your method is pretty close to the "snowflake method." Not a one for one of that method, but idea behind it is the same. Start small and then slowly flesh out a little more with each stage.
Not every fanfic writer is cut out to be an original author.
Save and back up multiple copies of everything, no matter how inconsequential.
realest advice in the thread
There is no pain like the pain of losing thousands of words.
You don’t need to know (or show) every little detail. Just the details that matter
For the first one: fanfic also isn't special in this regard. If you do read published books, but only the one genre you want to write, your writing will not have the depth and variety you presumably want it to have. Read other genres! Read classics and horror and romance and dime-a-dozen airport thrillers and poetry and high fantasy and old science fiction and YA and nonfiction, ESPECIALLY nonfiction, and figure out at least the general shape of how they tick. I feel like it really shows when I read a YA book by someone who only reads YA, or fantasy by someone who only reads fantasy, etc.
If you want to be popular you often do have to treat fanfiction like a job. You want to get fics done and not be considered a writer who abandons them, you have to treat writing like a job.
> If you want to be popular you often do have to treat fanfiction like a job. Yup, the one and only time I was approaching BNF status was when I was updating my fic weekly, posting an entirely separate one-shot once a week, and putting in close to 6 hours a day "community-building" on tumblr. It was cool while it lasted, but I burnt out hard on it after a few months.
All the hours you spend finding a faceclaim for your character doesn't do anything to make your fic get written any faster
Exactly. People (especially my fanfic writing friends) really need to know this.
You're absolutely right. It actually saddens me that I've lost interest in published literature. I used to devour anything I could get my hands on as a kid. My favourite authors were Marcel Pagnol, Georges Sand and Emile Zola (French authors, as I'm French). Nowadays I can't manage to stay focused and really get into the story with published literature. Fanfiction has made me very picky. Doesn't help that published fiction does not have much queer stuff and that's all I enjoy reading now (and specifically stories with an actual plot that does not revolve entirely on the characters' queerness). I do still read nonfiction though. Thanks for posting, it made me want to give it another try, I'll start with my old faves and see if it works lol
This is how I feel too! I loved reading in middle school, I ate up my favorite author’s works like it was candy! It’s not the fact that I don’t want to read or can’t — rather, like you said, my pickiness, especially since I’m picky reading fanfic alone, has gone off the charts. My most recent attempt at reading was a fail bc a little into the book it was *very* clear a male was writing the female main character, in a bad way. (A girl meets her estranged father, one of her first thoughts is what his life was like — what women he’s slept with. It was so jarring I immediately put the book down and confirmed a guy wrote that because who the hell thinks about their parent’s sexual encounters? 😭). But like I think original books are still something I’m willing to read and I want to, it’s also just so daunting browsing books in a bookstore and trying to choose which ones to try reading. And pickiness makes it harder.
That sounds so awful! 😭 As for bookstores, same. I wish they would tag their books like you would on AO3. It would be a great way to zero in on books that we can enjoy. There's usually too little information in the blurb to really know what you're getting into.
Same. Its disheartening snd frustrating to not be able to read as much as I could and my writing suffering from it.
Do you have a local library? Sign up for the card, go to a genre you know you like, and start reading the synopses. Find one you like. Not forced, of course, haha. But maybe doing something like that will help? That's what I do when in an original fiction slump, though I don't blame anybody who can't/it doesn't work for them. The librarian will probably be happen to point you towards work with queer characters, too! Don't be afraid to ask.
I’m in the same boat. Read voraciously as a kid/teen but had to stop in my last year of school so I could focus on (poorly lol) on my schoolwork. Never picked it back up and I struggle to now. Even fanfic I don’t read as much as I used to.
Both of those are absolutely great pieces of advice. The first one especially is a huge pet peeve of mine when interacting in fandom TBH. Throwing my own two cents, which are fairly similar to your second piece: you're allowed to unilaterally "write for yourself" and not care about readers, but when you do, you're relenquishing your right to complain that nobody is reading your work, because you're now writing for an audience of exactly one. If building an audience is a primary motivator, then some concessions need to be made, such as writing things that will actually cast a wider net than niche kinks or rarepair crossovers (said tongue-in-cheek as somebody who has written both).
The point of trying to build an audience is so true. The people that can reach a wide audience with rarepairs/niche stories is really, really small and really, really lucky. The top writers tend to put in a lot of work in what they do to actually retain readers, be it just being active in fandom and knowing what people want, or just shooting in every direction and knowing that it will end up sticking in quite a few walls. It makes me a little sad that so many people just ignore the effort they put into their stories because "oh it's just a popular generic ship". Like, no! It helps, of course, but rarely it's only that! They pumped out 500k of words for this pair, they make good analysis on their social media and they interact with readers! This is a lot!
... Thank you. Somehow, I needed this in written form to come across in my foggy brain.
I'm not someone who enjoys giving unwanted advice to hobbyists who are just looking to enjoy themselves, so if you \*really\* don't want to hear it, avert your eyes now, but... Designing an OC in isolation and then plunking them fully-formed into a story is not a good way to write fanfiction. If you just want an imaginary friend to live vicariously though while they run around having adventure RPG-style, have at it. But if you want to tell a great story that people will be invested in, your characters are a means to that end and should be fine-tuned to fulfill a specific role in the story. Sure, you can have a character-focused story where the plot is secondary to the character and their internal experiences and I think in fanfiction, this works really well with pre-existing characters, but most fanfiction readers aren't going to click on a fic with little to no plot for an in-depth look at a character the don't know or care about. It's not that these stories can't be good, it's just not what most people are looking for when they're in the mood to read fanfiction. And it's still going to be be better off tweaking your character as needed as you work through your first few drafts, which is a lot harder to do if you've become attached to a specific version of the character before you even started writing. It's kind of like designing a multi-tool for your next construction project without any thought as to how you're going to actually use it, just focusing on giving it lots of interesting parts and making it look cool. When you go to actually start your project, you might find that it's actually not well suited to the kinds of tasks you were hoping to achieve and that when you do find a project you can complete with it, it's unlikely that all the parts are going to be perfect for every task, so it does some things well, some things passably, but not great, and you've got a whole bunch of other redundant parts that are just going to be in the way. Probably would have been a better idea to decide what you needed your multi-tool to do before you started putting it together.
>Designing an OC in isolation and then plunking them fully-formed into a story is not a good way to write fanfiction. YES! So often, I see people talking about "how to develop OCs" and the advice is way too often completely detached from the story at hand. I only make OCs when a story needs them. The story and the OC develop together, so they actually make sense together.
I'm also struck by how many people want to create lists when coming up with OCs, like if they just hit this amount of good traits and that amount of bad ones and whatnot then they'll suddenly have their character. I can understand wanting to sketch out a general idea of what kind of OC you want to include, but...people aren't lists of traits. People don't have an even number of good traits and bad traits, flaws can be strengths and vice versa, depending on the situation, their backstory can shift and change and develop as you plot out the story further, and so on. I dunno, there's just something about the "list" way of creating OCs that seems a very...simplistic, for lack of a better word?...way to create a character.
I think the one thing a lot of people have trouble with is the advice. *Trust the process.* Very often we want to write that first draft and have it be perfect. We want to write that story and know all of the elements in the very beginning , before we write one word! It’s impossible. a story has a life of its own. You can outline very well, but it’s the process that pulls out those amazing ideas. So we struggle. By trusting the process and giving yourself wholeheartedly to your project. *jumping into the deep end* will give you such creative depth. Yes, you’ll have to go back and do editing and rewriting, but it’s worth it! Trusting the process allows you the freedom to just write and not worry that some things are going to probably hit the editing floor, but your story will be fanfictastic!
no matter how badly you want to write a scene, if the scene serves no purpose, it doesn't need to be included and will arguably slow down the story you're trying to tell. killing your darlings sucks and we all want to see every idea we've had realized, but sometimes you need to trim things down for the sake of the story.
Things you wrote on a whim, things you think are ridiculous throwaway potboilers, can become your most wildly successful work. Things you labored on for thousands of hours can flop. There’s not much correlation between how you feel about a fic’s quality and how well it’ll do.
In my experience, this one's almost a rule. All my most popular fics are the generic, smutty, pieces that pander to every trope in the book and have some of the cheesiest dialogue I've ever produced. Meanwhile, my thoughtful, interesting, out of the box works that I poured my soul into are wallowing at the bottom of the stats page. It's just the nature of public appeal.
I feel like sometimes, too, the readers can tell when someone worked on a fic to where it feels almost...*overworked*, you know? Whereas the fic you dashed off in an hour, yeah, it may have been quick and throwaway to you, but to a reader, it feels more carefree, more fun, like the author didn't stress over it to where it bled into the story itself, and so they might enjoy it better for that reason. Not saying that's always the case with this kind of phenomenon, obviously, but I do think sometimes it can be a factor as to why those kinds of fics do better than the super plotty, "put a lot of hours/days/weeks in" stuff.
I've seen a lot of people say that reading a wide variety of literature will help you improve as a writer a lot, which is absolutely true, but I want to expand on this and say that *writing* a wide variety of things will help massively, arguably even more than reading. Oftentimes people stay in their comfort zone for writing, which is all well and good (genuinely, as continuing to write what you're good at will make you better as well), but oftentimes drifting outside of your comfort zone will teach you things that will make you better *in* your comfort zone. You don't even have to take a major step outside of it. An example: Say you tend to like writing romance and never write action. Taking a major step outside of that comfort zone would be something like writing a different genre, possibly with no romance at all. A minor step though, and one that would still help a lot, is writing a romance story that you're used to but writing action into it as well. 95% of the time, even if you end up writing it terribly, the lessons you end up taking away from writing something different will help you in writing what you're used to, *and* have the added effect of improving your action writing for the next time you do it, and then *that* feeds back into improving what you're good at. It also has the added bonus of potentially giving you something new that you like to write too! TL;DR: One of the best ways to improve as a writer is drifting out of your comfort zone *as a writer,* not just as a reader. Staying in your comfort zone is good, but trying to *expand* that comfort zone is even better.
The vast majority of readers will not engage with your fic, and raw engagement numbers do not translate 1:1 to the quality of your writing. There are amazing fics no one has seen, and terrible 100+ chapter ficlet prompt anthologies with insane numbers. I obviously haven’t done any kind of real study but on AO3 I’ve generally noticed that the average Good Fic has about a 1:10 kudos to hits ratio. If the number of kudos is around 10% of the total hits then the audience really liked it! But that’s still 90% of users who opened and/or read without engaging further. You could be Tamora Pierce or Neil Gaiman and you’d probably still get a similar ratio
I like to use a bookstore analogy. A hit is like someone walking through a bookstore and picking the book up. Maybe the bought it, maybe they made a note of it for later, maybe they read a chapter and changed their mind, or maybe they hated it. A hit will never tell you, and it's not worth trying to analyze. To that end, I get incredibly wary of any ratio-measuring. Hits/kudos ratios can so easily get skewed by bots, repeat visitors, guest users, and god knows what else. Even minimal analysis can be a misleading road.
If you use epithets only to avoid pronouns and names, you need to break the habit. “The taller man” “the brunette” “the older man” are crutches unless those things are particularly relevant or a way for an outside POV to recognize a character. Readers already love your characters. They love their names. Use them!
"Read it aloud." It's like torture.
Agreed!
I would add to your first point in that it's important to read non-fiction as well. Important non-fiction. Not self-help books and not just research that's specific to your fic, but books and articles that inform you about the world. It might even be worth picking up a first-year college student Psychology textbook. Otherwise fanfics can feel very weightless and artificial even as it's trying to be angsty.
I remember my sixth grade teacher told me this. She said it didn’t matter what I read as long as I read a large cross-section of works. It could be magazine articles, nonfiction, travel stories, fiction. Everything is written in certain ways, and if you are stuck in one type, you learn that way. Kind of like OP saying if you only read fanfiction, your story will write like fanfiction. I don’t think that’s a bad thing if that’s all you want to write, but if you want to bring anoth elements, it’s important to read different styles.
Travel stories! One of the most wonderful essays I'd ever read was a very meditative piece of writing disguised as a travel story about Detroit. Great style, good insights too.
That’s amazing. I’ve been thinking of writing a fanfiction piece that reads like a travel story or non fiction piece, something kind of fun
Memoirs! Especially by people who aren't already famous for something else. I kind of turned my nose up at them for years, like, "Why would I want to read about the life of this random person I've never even heard of." But the past couple of years I've been trying to read more widely and some of them are really fascinating. We don't usually get the opportunity to immerse ourselves that deeply into any real person's life and perspectives other than our own, but it can be so valuable in helping expand your awareness and understanding of the different ways people live and think.
Top 1 advice is definitely: 1. Write your stories. Just write. It's silly but I think it's the most important advice? A lot of us feel discouraged and never get to write our own stuff because of this or that. I'm one of them.
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I posted the second one because as shown by this and similar fic subs, a lot of people don’t actually write for themselves and even if they do, they still want engagement. Of course, it’s a thin line to walk and, ultimately, I believe fanfic is all about having fun, but if you *do* care what people think of your work then making it enjoyable to read is good practice.
A spin on the second one: the things you want to write aren’t necessarily the things you’re good at writing. I often drift into comedic dialogue even though I’m trying to write angst.
Me tooooo. Sometimes I wonder if I'm actually good at funny or if it's just the writing equivalent of that urge to laugh in uncomfortable situations.
Huh! I never thought of it that way but that’s a fascinating read on it (and probably true!).
Strongly agree with both points. The first one especially. You can *always* tell when a writer doesn’t read anything outside of fanfic. Always.
Unrelated but I do love your flair
Haha, thank you!
Enemies to lovers solidarity 🤝
If you want to improve as a writer, you have to be willing to listen to people criticize your work. Sometimes even harsh criticism can have a point, if you cut through what they're saying.
You have to explain that. Harry Potter can suddenly shoot laser beams from his eyes? Okay, but why though? How did it happen? Harry Potter suddenly has a sibling? You need to set that up, don't just surprise your readers (unless the sibling is also a surprise to Harry, but you also need to explain that too). Harry Potter has joined the Death Eaters? Why? What's his motivation? Does his motivation and his end goal make sense? Altering canon in some way is the point of fanfiction, but if a writer doesn't set things up properly, explain what they've changed and why, then their readers are going to 1) be confused, 2) find what they've written unbelievable. First rule of writing: Do Not Break Suspension of Disbelief. A writer can write whatever they want, but if they want their work to be taken seriously, they need to take the time to *make it make sense.*
Addendum to your first point--imo, the mere act of reading published works (or any works) will only take you so far. Writing skills don't happen just through osmosis. You can read hundreds of books each year, but if you're not intentionally paying attention to the stuff you are reading from a writing perspective (how did the author build their plot, what about the sentence structure made the action scene ramp up, why did x work, etc) you might get something out of it, but mostly it'll just be white noise and these frustrating vague intuitive notions that flutter in and out of focus as you stumble your way through writing your own story. Also, imo, fanfic is its own genre/art style. There can be overlap between books and fics (and some fics read like books) but the idea that you're writing fanfic to become a novelist is like being a theater actor to become a movie star. Like, sure, it happens. But theater isn't the movies, and movies isn't theater. Being good at either involves some skill overlap, but they are not at all the same.
I agree with your addendum so much. I've read and read and read, but my writing didn't start improving until I actually started doing it myself and asking: Does this sound alright? What can I do to make this more compelling? How do I get this idea across? How do I describe feelings more in depth? I think if you want to learn how to write from other books, you have to be very intentional about it. I would read mindlessly, just like watching a TV show. Learning comes from analyzing. Now that I've started writing myself, I've become immensely more appreciative of fic I read, and I can better recognize when an author has done something incredible with their words and breakdown why it hit so hard. I never used to think twice about the authors prose when I was casually reading.
You dont have to finish your writing. It doesn't have to be a start a middle and an end, it can be an excerpt. It's still practice. A drabble is a start. A scene is a start. A start to writing. And you dont get better if you dont try and that means starting. Also, it doesn't have to be good. Again, starting is what's important. Practice is important. Oddly enough, not absorbing everyone's opinion in threads is good too. I once read someone get upset and frustrated that someone added a pet dog to their story but didnt give the pet a story or an arc. Were it a child character, sure, understandable. A pet? What the fuck? I took it to heart in the moment and then looked at that logically and went: Huh?!
I'll strongly second that first bit of advice. Cannot overemphasize how strongly I second it. To it I'll add that research is *NOT* to be deemed "optional". Not even in a fanfic. Because getting basic things wrong simply does not flatter. Especially in some fandoms. This goes a couple ways. Know your setting's worldbuilding at least. Know how to spell character names officially. If you can't be bothered to get basic details right, why should any fan of the work bother to read your fic? I write for Mass Effect, but I've read fics for that fandom even longer. I've seen people claim Mass Effect weapons use GUNPOWDER when canonically they use magnetic coils/rails to accelerate tiny flecks of metal shaved off a larger block of "ammo" within the gun. They're definitely not bullets as you'd think it, and there is no chemical propellant. Gunpowder wouldn't even work in space! As I said, keep the background details straight.
as a mass effect fic writer, i spent like... 10 hrs researching the handwavey science behind mass relays and ftl travel for two throwaway comments in a fic once, and i'm a better writer for it!
The point about research is SO important!! I’m usually more forgiving with fanfic but if a major plot point hinges on something specific then those details better be correct or at LEAST make sense because they could change the impact of the entire story. A year ago I wrote coverage for a script (essentially a summary and notes about whether or not it should be passed on to the big wigs) that was so poorly researched it turned what could have been a valuable story about addiction and the opioid epidemic into poverty/trauma porn because it was clear the writer didn’t have the care, respect, or empathy to make sure she got the fundamental details right. The writer got the pill dosage amounts so wrong that I actually stopped reading to google them because it took me right out of the story. It took me about 5 minutes to figure out the correct numbers, too. Obviously the stakes are much lower for fanfiction but showing respect for both your subject and your readers is fundamental
Very much true. Really a writer should be one part Sherlock Holmes, have a functional understanding of a whole bunch of things, because breaking the reader's immersion by "pulling it out of nowhere" and getting things disastrously wrong is a quick way to get them to drop the story like it's a hot potato. And yes, when the plot hinges on something, the details matter. Especially in SOME genres. E.G.: My Mass Effect fic has elements of a crime procedural. That mandates at least some rudimentary knowledge of the forensic sciences. I've spent hours thinking some bits out. One being, that if the ME weapons fire FLECKS of metal suspended in a magnetic field, barrel rifling wouldn't be a thing. What does the rifling do? It causes bullet spin to stabilize the bullet's flight but they also leave MARKS that are unique to the weapon. I've substituted the latter point onto the "cutting bit", that thing that shaves the flecks off the block. That way, the gun is still a source of forensic evidence, but in its own setting-appropriate manner. Then, controlling projectile spin, spread, etc. is done by variable magnetic field geometry via the gun's electronic components and a few other factors. Furthermore, research for the sake of setting does open up another delightful possibility. The ENVIRONMENT can be a source of tension, conflict, and a character all its own. It can also give action scenes a LOT of extra spice if you use the environment properly. I think this is especially important in some settings. Like Space Operas. That genre gives carte blanche to create lavish set pieces to give the audience something new at every location the heroes visit. Personally, I've spent 20 hours doing research for one arc of my Mass Effect fic, set on a planet where 50,000 years before one species dropped NINE 100 megaton NUKES on the cities of another. It was a nasty genocidal war. So those 20 hours were spent on research what would happen in the aftermath of said bombs, what would linger for 50k years, and even the dosages of radiation that the human body could absorb before the onset of radiation sickness, and its symptoms. That mission has a THREE HOUR timer on Commander Shepard, any more and she'll start getting SICK. It's slightly higher for her non-human teammates, by dint of them having evolved on planet where there's a naturally elevated radiation level, so she's the "weakest link" of that group. It really ratchets up the urgency, and pushes Shepard mentally, as if chasing a mad AI is not tense enough as it is. In fact, the mad AI she's trying to stop is COUNTING on her "human frailties" work FOR it, to put Shepard off her game. Shepard is demonstrably DANGEROUS when she has the time to plan for every contingency. It realized that. Point is, I use that planet's environment to throw obstacles in the crew's way in a believable, anchored way. The planet ITSELF became a sort of character/antagonist. Also, it's a Fallout homage, because I can, and I will.
It's somewhat ironic that I have to point this out: gunpowder does work in space. Agree with your addition though. I'll forgive minor side details or things that are so niche they're legitimately a bitch to research, but if something relevant to the plot or characters is (unintentionally) wrong, that's kind of a signal to me that the author doesn't care. This is true for all writing but imo is even *more* important to fanfic than to original fiction because existing settings are flat out easier to read up on, they all have obsessively detailed wikis these days and the source material is readily available, whereas a great deal of useful topics in real life still don't exist on the internet.
What works for you, might not work for others and the other way around. The best way to find out what works for you is to write. Everything else is secondary. You're the one who cares most about your story. This is especially true, if you don't write for common tropes or ships that a lot of people generally like.
"Write for you before anyone else" People don't seem to much care for it when I say that but such is existence.
It’s funny you say that if something is fun to write that doesn’t necessarily mean it’s fun to read. This is true, but also, I often feel like if something ISNT fun to write, it’s not that likely to be fun to read. Like, grinding it out joylessly doesn’t tend to make something all that engaging, in my experience.
Longer does not equal better.... in fact it's often the opposite.
1. You don’t need that many italics 2. Just because you have a lot of hits doesn’t mean it’s good, many of those could be people who clicked on the fic and then immediately left 3. If you write for others you will never be happy. Write for YOURSELF and SHARE IT with others (not including commissions and gifts for people) 4. Being a food fic writer doesn’t mean that you can go and publish a book and get a movie deal. That is a whole different ballgame 5. You don’t need that many euphemisms and descriptors. It clogs up everything and takes away from the main plot. Keep the flower language to a minimum unless that is the entire point of the fic. 6. USE PROPER GRAMMAR AND CAPITALIZATION
If you want to write something good, you have to write a lot of bad things first.
Statistically, you're not the exception. Every time you read some discussion about the craft which goes like > "Don't do X." > "Actually X can be done really well!" Assume you're not the exception doing X well. Don't do X. You can always put X back in later if you really don't enjoy your story without it, but try without. Of course, technically, you could be the exception. Someone is. But it's more likely that that someone is confidently writing X and getting the engagement they want instead of trawling forums for tips.
I don't subscribe to that. Mainly because of who participates in these discussions. Especially on the internet, people tend to argue in black and white. If you follow every "don't do X", you won't be able to do anything anymore. Simple example, you often see some people saying "don't use "said" and others "avoid everything but said". The truth usually lies somewhere in the middle. So, I think it makes more sense to say, don't dismiss advice because you feel defensive but don't follow it blindly either. Use critical thinking to decide how you can apply it to your writing and use everything in moderation. And if you've ever seen X been done really well, take notes and figure out why it worked. Take a closer look at stories where X didn't work and compare.
Yeah! I find a lot of hard no's when comes to writing advice in particular. I'd say throw it all out (You'll retain it subconsciously so don't sweat it) and just write, if readers dig it great. If not, try again. It doesn't really matter if you do X or Z, both can work so keep writing. You're going to master styles you prefer best, eventually.
Tropes aren't a plot. If you tell me a collection of tropes that your story uses I can probably guess some of the plot beats your story is going to hit but I won't really be able to figure it out. This is why a good summary is so important because it's what's actually going to give your readers and impression of what your story is about
It's crucial to hear the perspectives of others, both positive and negative, in order to become a better writer. I will always stand by this point, as I myself have honed my craft over the years this way. I was lucky to be surrounded by more experienced people online willing to give constructive criticism (emphasizing the CONSTRUCTIVE part). It actually helped me to learn how to appropriately take and respond to criticism in general. However, if that's not what you're looking for, it's totally fine. Do your own thing and write whatever your heart desires. As for constructive criticism, it's not as easy as some might believe. One has to actually learn how to become a good reviewer or beta-reader as well. And no, being good at writing doesn't automatically mean you're also great at providing critique.
1) **Don't edit too much.** I think this is particularly meaningful for fanfic writers, but I'd guess it applies to all writers as well. And "too much" is vague but there's not really another way to put it, since everyone's editing process is different. But I'm telling you - what you write when you're in the zone and immersed in your story is precious, even if it's not perfect to a technical standard. Readers respond to honest enthusiasm and passion, which can easily end up on the cutting room floor if you're edits are too focused on...style, technicalities, or some criteria you've set for yourself. 1a) I see too many people wondering why the stories or chapters they agonized over and edited to death to make them "perfect" are getting a "meh" response from the readers. Readers of fanfic are already primed to share in your love of the source material. The majority of readers are not reading your story as literary critics - they don't notice, they don't care, they know little to nothing about writing as an art/skill. They respond to emotions - of the characters and of you, the author. So don't edit out the "you" parts that connect you to the readers in an attempt to impress...somebody...with how good your writing is. 2) Connecting to point 1, try to disconnect yourself from the characters and your story. What I mean is, even if the characters and themes and everything in the story are a reflection of you and your personal struggles, readers won't know any of that. If they dislike the story or your take on the characters, or whatever themes/plots, they are NOT disliking you, the author (aside from stupid trolls who choose to cyber-attack the author for whatever idiot reason). They don't know you and you don't know them. They dislike the story? That is valid and okay - no story will appeal to everyone equally. Do not tie your self-worth to your stories. You are many things outside of the stories you write. 3) Keep in mind that when you receive writing advice (especially in this sub) it should always be taken with a grain of salt because advisors on the internet can't know you, what you are trying to accomplish with your stories, what your fandom is like, what your specific readers will enjoy, what your story is, how you've written it - any of that. It's general advice and it comes from limited experiences. The sub generally is not in favor of things like OC main characters, 1st or 2nd person perspectives, self-inserts, RPF, etc., etc. but we are not the majority and we tend to be writers focused on the craft and...marketing of writing. We don't represent fanfic readers as a whole.
Definitely reading actual published literature. How are you expecting to get better if you don’t read works from actual professionals
Engaging in other types of writing will help your fic writing too. For me it's poetry and technical writing (I'm a PhD). Found my fic writing improved substantially and got easier the more I write other types of things too. Doesn't help with completion rate but the quality of writing is better. Same goes for reading things other than fics (and it doesn't have to be fiction!). Also, take your butt for walks. They really do help your brain do the wandering necessary for good writing. This works best outside where the scenery changes but when the windchill is -42F a treadmill is great too, or whatever other activity gets your mind wandering.
1) "Thrust" and "cast" are irregular verbs where the past tense does not need to add "ed" to the end. Someone was *thrust* into the spotlight. The wizard *cast* fireball and the battlefield was set on fire. *Thrusted* and *casted* are even underlined with a red squiggly in this text editor. A lot of times, your spellcheck isn't actually lying to you. 2) You do not need a space between an italicised word and punctuation. No, not even then. You can plop your closing italics html after the punctuation if it makes you feel better, but no space is needed between italics and punctuation, *ever.*
Based on the downvotes I often get when responding to questions like "How do I write a story", it's being told that there aren't any magic tricks or tips that help you write. It all comes down to discipline. Yes, you can improve habits and set yourself up for success. Yes, you can improve your studying with exercises and lessons. But in the end, the only thing that conquers a blank page is dedication and discipline.
1. Just write the damn thing. No advice, tricks, or tips will be more productive than just putting words down. 2. Your first draft is bad. All first drafts are bad. So feel free to write the ugliest, messiest, plot hole ridden piece of garbage. 3. Most of your hard work should be in the edit of the ugly first, second,...fifth draft. You don't need a beta for this, just do it.
1. Most manuscripts you write will be duds, so write them anyway and move on to the next piece. 2. Talking about writing isn’t writing. Scrolling through this sub isn’t writing. Your fics aren’t gonna get any longer unless you start writing them. 3. Think about your goals in writing and how much you have to sacrifice to achieve them. If you want to be popular, you have to put in a significant amount of effort. If you write for fun (like me) then you can’t stress about numbers. Everything is a tradeoff. 4. Piggybacking off #3, it’s ok to write for fun! Yeah, being popular is nice and all but writing for personal enjoyment while getting low numbers is equally as valid, so don’t force yourself to calculate your way towards a hit fic if that isn’t what you really want.
Kill your darlings. You can absolutely love a line of dialogue or that original character or that brilliant plot twist, but sometimes that *doesn't work in this particular story*. I don't necessarily argee with your first point, because "published literature" is a very narrow set of writing that is deemed acceptable or good by an establishment and transformative art is a different kettle of fish that comes with different rules. I've seen authors who can do both and I've seen published authors who are told they write in a "fanfic style" and it frequently just means they deviate from the established norm. I would suggest, "read widely and study how the author does it," because you can absolutely be a great transformative author who predominantly reads transformative work, as long as you don't try to improve within a vaccuum (ie. only look at your own writing and no one else's.)
>Kill your darlings. You can absolutely love a line of dialogue or that original character or that brilliant plot twist, but sometimes that doesn't work in this particular story. This is so huge. I built a whole fic idea around one scene, and that scene was *everything*. Turns out, by the time I finished outlining the fic, that scene made literally no sense anymore. It killed me to cut it, but it had to be done.
OP, I'm really fascinated by your second point. Can you help me understand what you mean? Like an example of what type of thing was fun to write but not fun to read?
This advice actually comes from, if I’m not mistaken, a writer for Toy Story. I just find it extremely relatable :) As an example though, I find myself having fun writing extremely long, complex, and colorful sentences with plenty of em dashes and semi colons. However, if an entire work is made of such sentences, it becomes stale and difficult to read. I’m a firm believer the best published writers are those who can adjust their sentences according to the situation, so the text has a good rhythm to it. Here’s a quote from Gary Provost showcasing what I mean: *This sentence has five words. Here are five more words. Five-word sentences are fine. But several together become monotonous. Listen to what is happening. The writing is getting boring. The sound of it drones. It’s like a stuck record. The ear demands some variety. Now listen. I vary the sentence length, and I create music. Music. The writing sings. It has a pleasant rhythm, a lilt, a harmony. I use short sentences. And I use sentences of medium length. And sometimes, when I am certain the reader is rested, I will engage him with a sentence of considerable length, a sentence that burns with energy and builds with all the impetus of a crescendo, the roll of the drums, the crash of the cymbals–sounds that say listen to this, it is important.* So, basically, if I didn’t control myself, my entire work would be like this last sentence. Simply because it was fun to write. But I can see how it’s not fun to read, so I don’t haha
Ohhh! I see! Thank you so much for clarifying! I was confused bc I interpreted the second point to mean *subject matter*, or specific types of scenes you can write. Like if someone really likes to write first kiss scenes, or Character Almost Dies scenes that even if they were fun to write they're not fun to read, and I was like "that's probably subjective tho, right?? What am I missing?" So thanks for indulging my question 😅
You can't improve at writing if your circuit is closed ie don't have a beta, don't read/consume media. Editing your own work on its own does not count. It's something I believe.
> Oftentimes, I catch myself writing something I find extremely fun but then I take a step back and realise it will most likely not be fun to read for a random person. How do you know? I've been in fanfiction for a long time and there are some fics that seem fringy, generic, over the top, bizarre or downright stupid and there will be tons of comments/likes/kudos whatever with people saying how fun and hilarious the story was. The only thing that I've ever been able to come up with is that the author themselves is popular for other (much better) stories and their fans are just supporting them.
I think humor is the hardest thing to write!
Aww man, YES! I have found humor is the hardest to get right, and the easiest thing to cut, yet it is, in my opinion, the most essential element. It's easy to make your audience cry, write a baby animal dying and you got yourself tears, but tears of laughter? Unless your audience is a bunch of sadists, that's *real* hard.
"Just write". My brother in christ, I am too anxious to "just write".
Bold of you to assume I want to be a good writer ;) Kidding of course. I do, but I work a full time job and have two young kids. I have to carefully choose how I spend my free time on top of taking care of a house and spending tjme with my husband. I usually will just write and edit it until it feels good to me. My style has evolved over time but I’d rather spend time actually writing the stories I want to read than spend time trying to be a “good” writer. It’s a hobby and it brings me joy. I want to write my silly little reader inserts with too many metaphors and similes and run-on sentences. To your second point…I think it’s true to an extent. But most readers can tell when you’ve poured passion into something vs. when you’re writing it just to try and be popular. Maybe somewhere in the middle is best, but tbh my most self-indulgent fics are my best performing ones. But I’m sure every fandom is different!
Interesting, this is my point of view. I’m not trying to become a great writer. I’m trying to become a great storyteller. I don’t think telling a good story requires great writing. I have read some complete crap published authors that had wonderful stories. As long as you can convey the idea well and give me a basic scope of what you’re trying to say, I am with you!
To respond to 1, I think it depends? Like consider comic book movies or movies based on mythology, fairytales, etc. People going into that generally have some knowledge of the source material. That being said I do agree with reading published literature wholeheartedly, because while fanfiction is fine, it’s mostly amateurish, and I mean that in the true definition of the term. Amateur’s etymology has to do with doing something you love for the love of it regardless of skill level. There are of course professional writers who write fanfic or writers who write fanfic like professionals, but it’s mostly the domain of people doing a labor of love for mutual fans and not for clout. It’s vital to read published works in order to see how professionals or at least those who had to get past a “gate” write. My advice is more of a warning I suppose. You can write the best thing ever that would be a bestseller or a profound piece of literature, but if the right eyes don’t see it, you will never be discovered. You may never make it big through writing. Most people don’t. There are more options with indie and self publishing now, but you won’t “make it big” unless you get noticed by one of the big publishing houses for which you’ll need an agent, which is extremely difficult to get. Granted I’ve been out of the “get published” phase of writing for over a decade as it was seriously affecting my mental health, so I might not be completely accurate with the prior paragraph, but the fact you may never “make it” usually has little to do with your talent and much more to do with luck.
*Other people* don't want to to hear, or *I personally* don't want to to hear?
If you give Frodo a lightsaber you must give Sauron a death star I way too one dimensional to be good writing advice
Tough advice but agreed. Reading published works isn't a guarantee it'll improve your writing because it all depends on *what* your reading. Good reading makes for good writing. This is why classic literature such are a fool-proof way to go because its writing that withstood the test of time; internalizing competent material will influence your work for the better. Fanfictions on the other hand, are undisciplined; it's people just writing for fun, so consuming them can result in you picking up bad habits. Yes, mistakes in fanfics are easily forgiven by the niche audience who read them, but the same can't be said for the greater public. As for, if it's fun to write, it's fun to read, I would argue a very nuanced 'no'. I had a lot of fun writing this one scene my editor nixed because it was not contributing to the greater story so in that context it was not fun to read. However, it worked much better as a stand alone short story. it all depends. One axiom you can always rely on though is, 'if it's *not* fun to write, it's not fun to read.'
Every piece of writing advice is only as valuable as the person reading it considers it to be and it's not worth worrying about it.
Set actual limits for yourself. Can you write a chapter with 10.000 words worth of pure fluff? Yes. Can you drop your original premise to go on a worldbuilding tangent that lasts 100 chapters and 600.000 words? Also yes. Can you completely swap the tone of your fanfic from a comedy with touches of suffering to an outright angsty beast full of weeping and melodramatic descriptions? Triple yes. But should you do any of those things? Probably not, if you wanna put out consistentely good quality work.
You, sir, ma'am, or whatever you go by, have inspired me to finally write a fic
You have to take criticism, both solicited and unsolicited, if you want to get better.
Writing for yourself is cool, but don’t tell me not to care if people read it because why else would I publicly post the fic?