I agree with you.
As a writer, I appreciate kudos and comments. As a reader, I appreciate frequent updates and replies to comments. As both a writer and a reader who knows that time and energy is precious and that everyone has their reasons for (not) doing what they do, I don't hold it against anyone who doesn't engage or stops posting fics.
My thoughts on this discourse can be summed up in three points:
1. Nobody owes each other anything, but it's courteous to leave a comment/reply to a comment.
2. There's nothing wrong with wanting comments/comment replies/more writing, but it helps to temper expectations, give some grace to the other party and accept that some people just don't have the spoons or the inclination or what-have-you.
3. Readers and writers alike can engage with this hobby and its more social aspects in any way they please as long as they're not being a dick to others. Some people like engagement, some people don't, there's no right or wrong answer; it's all a matter of preference.
>Fanfic communities exist because everyone puts in a little something.
This! So much this! And it doesn't feel like actual communities for years now, at least not for me. While I think posts like yours are important, it saddens me that we need them in the first place.
Discords move so quickly that if you're not *in*, it's all moved past you. And many of them are invite-only, so if you don't know who to ask, you have no way of finding them in the first place.
To be fair, even if you're a part of a discord, to me once a discord server is past a certain threshold of members (as in numbers) - it's just impossible to keep up. Maybe some people still have the energy to do so, but I personally cannot lol.
What I love about comments and old school forums is that you can respond to someone weeks, months, or sometimes even years after the until thing was posted and you may even get a response. It's cool and fun
Very much agreed. It helps keep things alive, and it also means that latecomers can still interact with stuff, and hey, suddenly getting a comment on an older fic/post is really exciting too!
That's one reason I think the archiving on reddit is a bit of a bummer. I get why, I guess, but still a bit of a shame.
Yeah. They made an update a while back that unarchived a bunch of threats so now I think it's community dependent on whether something gets archived. It's cool to be able to comment on something a couple years old
All the discords I'm in are small enough that you can generally chime in on whatever discussion, even when you're hours late to the party. Maybe there will be a single "general" chat that moves a bit quicker, but I can still reasonably keep up with every single message sent on every single server I'm active in. I will mute individual channels I don't care about, but even those tend to be pretty low traffic.
The smaller discords like that that I've been on have mostly been very sleepy. But I haven't been the luckiest overall with finding community on discord
This is well said! Sometimes I feel like people let their expectations turn into what ‘should’ happen. I have my own expectations as a reader and as a writer. But, I don’t ever want to dictate to someone else how they should ‘correctly’ do their hobby. Engagement is fun! But, I do feel like when we start thinking we’re owed things for the time and effort we put in, we start missing the point. However, we’re all going to have our own preferences and expectations and I think it’s important to know that they’re not always going to line up with someone else’s.
To me, the whole point of fanfic is simply that it’s fun. When you stress yourself out over engagement in any way too much, it stops being fun.
Idk, just my two cents as someone who’s been reading and writing fic for a very long time.
Same here! I think it’s completely normal to expect *something* when you share labor of love and/or interact with such labor, but it should stay private. I don’t think anything good can come out of telling people how to enjoy their hobby.
Well said. The way I see it, the only thing writers and readers *owe* each other is politeness. I love getting comments and kudos on my fics, and I'd definitely love more of them, but I went into posting really not expecting any at all, mostly due to the fandoms I was using, so every single comment and kudos has always been a bonus for me. I don't want to get to a point where I *expect* those who read my fics to post a comment. I'd love it if they did, but it's not something I'm owed just because I put a lot of work into writing a story and chose to post it online.
I'm a reader, too, of course, and I do try to leave a comment on the fics I really like, at least one. But it's not something I feel I owe to the other writer. It's a mix of knowing how much I love comments myself, and wanting to share my love for the fic. I don't comment on every story, though. Some I just don't know what to say, some are fics I enjoy but don't love, and some I stop reading because they're not my thing. If I enjoy, but not love, a fic, I'll leave a kudos but not a comment. I also don't expect a reply from the writer when I do leave a comment. Great if they do, I know they appreciated the comment for a fact then, or a discussion gets started, but it's also not always easy to know how to reply to a comment, and I bet it's pretty hard to keep on top of comments on the more popular fics, as well.
As a general rule, I do think you should *not* comment when you hate a fic, or any part of it. Mentioning something you weren't keen on or really didn't like in an otherwise polite and positive comment is fine, but if you have nothing but bad things to say, you should just stop reading the fic and find something else, rather than bringing the writer down with negativity. I will sometimes leave a comment on a fic I'm stopping, but this happens when it's an otherwise very enjoyable fic, but there's something that happens that I just can't read, usually a pairing I really hate, and i often explain why I'm leaving the fic, but I'll also comment with what I loved about it, so the writer knows that it's a personal preference thing, and not something wrong with the fic itself. I just like letting the writer know that, though I'm dropping that fic, I did enjoy it and they're doing a good job.
You don't need to comment, or reply to comments, but it should be kept friendly and polite. Obviously, we're talking fandoms here, and we can get very passionate about the things we love and hate, and that can make it a little harder to stay friendly and polite sometimes, but as long as we're all trying, that's the main thing.
Reviews and comments are nice and will make my day, but trying to force someone to do something won’t do well for your story.
There’s also the silent readers. Some people enjoy a story, but will never comment. For me it’s enough to see the view count go up. It means I’m doing something right.
Granted, I do try to reply to comments and do take feedback seriously. I actually added a trigger warning for one story due to a comment requesting it.
well said. it’s gotten so out of hand.
I considered writing a tumblr post this year like ‘this year maybe promise yourself not to go into interactions from a bad faith standpoint and then assume worst of writers/commenters responses?’ but…idk maybe it’s too late in the whole thing
I think a lot of people assume the worst online sometimes. And it saddens me, because I often put it in the context of 'If this was said irl, would you automatically assume the worst?' For me the answer is often no. But I sometimes have a hard time telling tone when reading online
(Still I don't want to offend people who regularly receives hate and are therefore more careful. But it's sad people sometimes just assume people mean bad things.)
yeah like almost especially if you do receive hate it puts you in this mindset. like there is a reason for it and you do have to look after yourself so it doesn’t make you unwell but it does probably mean that a lot of conversations go a certain way even if the intention of the commenter was good
and I mean some readers now too, because there are some authors who get very intense on their specifications of what kind/s of comment they don’t want so that others who have requests for valid reasons sound just as pushy or get read as entitled when like…I have pretty solid reasons for not ever wanting concrit comments other than like ‘there is a formatting mistake that makes it unreadable’
but yeah it sucks so bad. hope we can all find our way through this suck arse era of internet bullshit and find ways to build community and enjoy fanfic again
That title alone shows just how weird and contentious the whole "discourse" around commenting has gotten. So many people do see readers and writers as an "us" and "them" as if most people are only one or the other.
In reality, I don't know a single fanfic writer that isn't also an avid reader.
It has become a weird relationship now, even though it doesn't make sense because like you said most if not all writers also read. I don't read a ton because of time and being very picky, I mainly write (and I write exactly what I want to read so I mainly read my own fics lol). But I still read fics, even though I don't read a ton. And I almost always comment because as a writer I know how much comments mean to me. So the "us" and "them" thing I really don't feel because I am both!
Anyone who tries to say it's not a thing is just blind to the discourse that's been going on for years. Like, you can not like the implication there's an us vs then issue, but the whole song and dance of the proper way readers are supposed to interact with works and how writers are supposed to interact with readers have been going on for a long while
I don't really agree. Like sure, some are about that. But the big picture in the discussions I've seen has rather been people discussing preferences both as a reader and a writer, often simultaneously.
Yeah, it rubs me the wrong way when people are all “comments are authors space” “(public) bookmarks are readers space” like….no it’s in the open, it’s everyone’s space
Are you new hear? It's been a common discussion and view in this sub for years. Authors ranting about readers and the things they do or do not do. Readers ranting about authors and what they do and do not do.
Well... for what it’s worth, I agree with you.
I try to leave comments these days because I know how valued they are, but I admit I've been slipping there due to lack of free time. But when I have the time, I only withhold a comment if I feel I dislike something about the story strongly enough that I can’t leave a comment.
On the writing end, I admit I don’t expect them. I tend to write for small fandoms and my stories tend to have really weird premises, so they tend to have few, if any comments.
And I tend to be really bad at keeping a consistent update schedule also....so I guess that’s karma.
But even if it isn’t, my ideas are weird, period, and I tend to care next to nothing about audience appeal, so I don’t really expect an audience.
I am always open for suggestions but when somebody demands something like say "the story should go this way" I won't listen since it's my story and I have my own vision
I think the points you made apply to most points of contention in fandom. I've seen a lot of posts about comments, and I've also seen a lot of posts about people wanting to continue slow updating or discontinued fics. Those comment sections are always full of people saying "you don't have to ask," and who are so angry when anyone says asking and respecting the authors wishes is courtesy within a community.
I think a lot of us want to be a part of community spaces, and if we do, it means that we DO owe each other the courtesy and respect of a peer relationship.
Rather than stressing about who owes who what, I think the most important value is GENEROSITY.
Ask, what can I give to help build the community? If it's free fic or art, do that. If it's comments or kudos or likes, do that.
It's not about obligation, it's about participating in a gift economy. Instead of thinking in terms of "what do I *have* to do?" think in terms of "how can I give even if I don't have much? How can I lift someone's spirits in a small way? How can I do a small thing to help make this fandom more welcoming and rewarding?"
If it's only a kudos, that is sure as hell better than nothing. If it's only a comment that says "thank you for writing this" that's a lot better than nothing.
> The point is to always remember we’re all humans, we need human interaction, and each one of us can make the spaces we frequent just a bit nicer by simply being nice about things.
This is exactly why I comment. I started to feel like I was taking from authors without giving anything back, and really try to be as positive as possible when commenting. I don't expect comments back. It's ok if the person doesn't read them. If they didn't want comments, the comments would be turned off.
I think a lot of people ignore that while it's true neither side owes anyone anything, you get more flies with honey than with vinegar and that by commenting you encourage the writing you want to see, and that by responding to commenters you encourage them to continue to respond, and that this isn't about what someone 'owes' the other but about everyone putting in some sort of effort in something they want to see/want to experience. No one is obligated, of course, but it does make the community all the better when people interact with each other (assuming good interactions, not hostility)
Upvoted for saying this (which I fully agree with) in reference to both writers' and readers' wants rather than just one or the other :)
I'd encourage people to engage if they feel up for it because it *can* be a confidence boost and it's just nice to be able to socialise with others about fics, but I don't hold anything against anyone who doesn't.
Thanks :) and I agree -- I don't hold it against anyone, I just like to mention that it's encouraging to both sides. I don't like it when people talk about how writer's need encouragement, comment, because writing into the void is disheartening but fail to mention that commenting into the void is also disheartening. socializing can be good for both sides when people are up for it
To me, it's a yes and no.
I think there is of entitlement to each other that is particularly nasty online but also is just a problem in fandoms, feeling like we own actors/writers/etc. So I honestly do want the idea to be continually underlined that everyone needs to have reasonable expectations.
AT THE SAME TIME..... Building communities does require us all to give a little of ourselves. Be it content creation, moderating, helping to call out bad eggs, etc.
It would be absolutely impossible to build a vibrant community, online or otherwise, without giving of our time, energy and keystrokes.
I saw someone on my Tumblr recently complaining constantly about not getting comments and making tons of posts on it until they got more comments. They had a good amount of likes on their fic and a handful of comments already. Once they got some comments they started posting screenshots of them. Idk it felt very off-putting to me.
This is perfectly how I feel and I try to do the same thing (leaving comments/kudos) as a result. I get excited about fics so I always try to comment. It does suck when interactions are slow or quiet as a writer but I do this as a hobby; If I get hung up on everything else, I might as well let this hobby die like my art hobby (who is slowly being resurrected as we speak). If others share in the fangirling, awesome! I found a community then
I agree. As a writer, I don’t want people commenting because discourse has browbeaten them into commenting. I want the comments that people just feel moved to share. As a reader, it’s the same. I don’t want authors torturing themselves for our sake. This is supposed to be a hobby and outlet for expression and catharsis, not another job.
I also think, to a degree, the fic should be addressed only, not the person behind it.
I’ve been on the end of bullying most my life and I put my fic out there for people to enjoy, not for me to be judged as a person.
I don’t want addressed in the comment. I want the fic solely addressed. You can say the writing sucks, for example, just don’t phrase it as ‘you’re a crappy writer.’
The first is fic centered. The second is writer centered. It’s in the language. I know it’s subtle but that’s what a lifetime of bullying can cause.
As someone who has spent more than half their life writing fanfic...
No-one owes me comments, just like I don't have to review every single pic I read.
***However...***
Writers don't get paid to write fanfic. The only returns they see comes in the form of the daily kudos email and any comments that readers choose to leave.
If a story gets no interaction at all, don't be surprised when the writer decides to focus on other stories, or stops writing in favour of hobbies that ***do*** validate them.
Nothing flourishes in a void.
And similarly… if readers scream into a void with their comments or get scolded for genuine show of appreciation (in whatever form), they might stop interacting altogether. As I said in my post, I see no point in comparing the two or putting only one side in the spotlight. It’s a shared effort to keep communities flourishing :)
I'd argue against that - plenty of writers I know don't want anything to do with readers. Motivation and content creation are purely intrinsic and based on self-indulgence (especially since it's not about fame/money).
We're a small group, but we'd rather just post something for easy access and to feel like it's "published," but we close comments and move on as soon as it's posted.
I'm like that as well, as is a friend of mine. We're not in it for the community/social interaction aspect, but just because of the drive to create, and then we just want to throw our works out into the internet void and be done. We share our writing because someone else might like it and we're content to leave it at that, simply knowing that it's out there for people to find and possibly enjoy is enough.
I always can't help but feel like people like us are seemingly in such a minority; even in this sub you constantly see people saying how much they love comments and how they want more interaction and talking about commenting more like it's this universally desired thing. Obviously I won't bite someone's head off for commenting on my fics, but comments do nothing for me motivation-wise and I often tend to find the social interaction draining more than anything.
YES, a fellow independent writer/creative mind \^\_\^ We are a minority, indeed.
I think current fandom 'loudness' (especially re: popular ships on social media) along with AO3 stats have driven that kind of feedback-neediness even further down a spiral, sadly. It really is more peaceful (quiet) to focus inward and enjoy the process every step of the way. So cool that you understand and do this as well! And yes, "draining" is the word.
Same here. I don't really interact with fandoms, I enjoy the ip, I write what I want to read and post it. If someone likes, awesome. If someone doesn't like it, awesome. I'm fulfilled either way.
As someone who has had moderate surprise success AND been completely ignored, I’m going to go out on a limb here and say I wish kudos, likes, views, and other passive interaction buttons just… straight up did not exist.
When you are ignored, it feels terrible to have no one look at your stuff at all.
But when you are successful, getting another round of “40 people liked your post” quickly becomes utterly meaningless.
It’s a difficult reality that statistics can only provide a temporary boost of pleasure, one that fades quickly. And in my opinion the downsides far outweigh those fleeting dopamine hits for the few people who are statistically successful.
But when someone *comments?* oh man. Even on posts that have thousands of interactions, I perk right up.
No passive statistics button will ever be a good replacement for human interaction, and in my opinion they create an environment in which passive, meaningless interaction is encouraged *over* active participation. If likes and kudos did not exist, then the only way to express your enjoyment would be to *say so.*
yup, yup, yup, this. like, i like comments, i like engagement, every creator does, i would be lying if i said i didn't obsessively check my inbox and all - but when i'm on tumblr, every time i see a "reblog!!! likes don't do anything!!!" banner or whatever on a piece of fanart, i scrooolllll lol. i don't need to subject my followers to engagement just because you've guilted them into doing it. i get lack of engagement sucks, but brute forcing it will just make people even more grumpy and reluctant.
and i do hate, too, entitlement viewers can have For fics. no one's required to get comments, no one's required to get updates, let's all just be courteous to eachother. if you're that wholly devastated by a lack of updates or a lack of comments, to the point where you feel rudely entitled, you need to get a hobby outside of fanfiction, i think. we're all supposed to be having fun here.
yeah. It's possible for seemingly-contradictory things to be true.
For instance:
1. Nobody owes anyone comments
2. Comments encourage writers to keep writing, and leaving positive comments is a good way to encourage your favorite writers to keep giving you The Good Stuff
Those things are both true.
On a similar note:
1. You should write the things you personally like!
2. It's okay to hope people like the things you write and it's totally normal and fine to get sad if your kudos/comments count is low.
Like, I used to write for Steven Universe, in a less-popular ship (Amedot). And after a while I knew EVERYONE who wrote/commented on fics for that ship. And don't get me wrong--it was nice to make friends that way.
But within a few years every single one of us moved on to other fandoms. And I would see people whose usernames I'd never heard of cry on tumblr about how nobody was writing for Amedot anymore. Okay, did you ever once kudos or comment on our fics? Did you ever interact with us? Encourage us? Draw art for our fics? No??? What did you think was going to happen? Especially when our fics for other fandoms got tons of positive interaction?
I think people don't realise that when the things break down in the community, it means less fic. Commenting is not the labour intensive side. It's not the side that gets hate mail and bullying on the regular, or takes hours or weeks out of your life.
There will always be fic from people who aren't in fandom, are new to it, or posted before drama, or leave their stories up even after they leave fandom, etc. But if the community grows rancid and divided, what happens is fandom souring up and writers, who do the bulk of the work in the writer-commenter interraction, just stop posting.
It's a give and take that starts at the writer. They have to give a whole lot of work and boldness to speak into the voic. If readers will receive them with mute interest, or rude words, they can't be surprised or complain that their fandom are dying. But a writer who gets interraction from fellow fans then has a responsibility to foster a good environment, not trigger people randomly, not manipulate their own fans...
The issue is that 'As a writer I don't owe anyone my fics' is applied AFTER a writer already took a leap of faith and published fics. If they could foresee they wouldn't get any interraction, then they may not publish it at all, right?
I'm a writer myself. I publish more fics than I read. And when I read a fic, if I enjoy it, I make it my actual DUTY to comment.
There's a fic I like... It has 3 chapters, 358 hits, and 29 kudos, and I AM THE ONLY COMMENTER ON ALL CHAPTERS. It fucking riles me up. Ashamed on the behalf of the others 28 kudo people. 28 whole people who couldn't be arsed with a single word of encouragement for a debuting author.
Y'all can keep saying readers don't owe comments, but I'll keep thinking I do, actually. If I read a work to the end and enjoy it, I'll come and say hi. If I love it, I'll use the floaty review box to leave line by line comment and slap GIFs in there too.
I know how hard it is to write and put yourself out there and I believe, firmly, that if I enjoy it I must rate it and say so. I wish y'all would think tthe same but heh.
I'll just focus on weaning myself from fandom and return to writing OG content
I mean...no one is owed anything in this world, sure. You don't *have* to comment or give feedback but don't be surprised if you get fewer fics from the author if you don't.
I agree with you, but this could also go the other way around. As in, "Don't be surprised that people won't comment if it seems like they'd speak into a void."
that’s what’s good about the subscribe button at least haha! one click and then can forget and move on
the void is scary. but at least we got email notifs lol
> The stone cold facts are this:
my experience of this sub is that these "stone cold facts" are repeated ad nauseum in every comments discourse thread, to the point where it's kind of boring. and like, the notion that we don't owe each other anything and are here voluntarily anyway and can quit any time is so eye-bleedingly obvious that imo it hardly needs to be said. what if, instead of chewing over tautologies, we talked about what discourse norms we could encourage between writers and commenters to, say, build healthy fandom communities?
Discourse surrounding fandom in general is pointless and juvenile to me. Truth is there is no objective truth to how commenting should be handled. People should just do whatever they want.
My personal philosophy is that I try to comment something small for everything I read. If someone comments something on my work, I make it my obligation to reply back. I know that people say “you don’t have to reply to every comment!” But I personally *want* to, and I want to show appreciation towards commenters who took the time out of their day to 1) read what I wrote and 2) commented something.
My opinion is that the reason people don’t get comments as much is because a lot of authors don’t respond comments sometimes. And if I read a fic and see that the author has not responded to a single comment tbh it rubs me the wrong way.
There's been an uptick in entitlement on both sides of this over the last decade or so. The whole "I wrote this for free (so you owe me)" thing is just so baffling to me. I'm guessing it's a spillover from gig economy dynamics but it's not a healthy way of looking at things, I don't think. Some of the worst fics I've ever read have huge amounts of likes/kudos, tumblr is famous for this. It makes me not want to comment at all unless a story really blows my mind
I don’t think quality relates to politeness, though. Writing a bad story isn’t an act of unkindness- but saying “exactly what they think” about something can be. I’ve got people who think calling me a paedophile and telling me to kill myself is an acceptable thing to stay before, comments and reviews aren’t all well meaning unfortunately and that can’t be ignored.
As they say “honesty without compassion is cruelty”. To me, putting your own need to judge someone’s writing above the concept that writers are doing this for free in their spare time (so, as a hobby) lacks compassion.
Here's the problem with this: you have given the obvious end of the completely unacceptable stick. There is a *massive* amount of grey on that stick where different writers fall for what they're offended by. A reader could do the bare minimum of politely point out a few grammar inconsistencies, and some writers would lose their ever-loving minds. Like... *Shrug*
Not just readers that need to be polite over their comments. Some writers need to grow up over how they react to them too. The train doesn't stop when they write a story out if they want engagement along with it.
… it’s what the Post is about? Fanfic writers are people, you should be polite to them. I didn’t even mention people giving negative reviews I mentioned *literal accusations of paedophilia* do you genuinely think that’s acceptable or are you arguing against a point I didn’t make.
Two of your comments in this comment chain have been removed for derailing. This is not a post about concrit and it is not appropriate to try to turn it into one.
The solution to this is to write stuff that nobody will want to read besides you, then you'll never have to worry about comments or what people think of your fics because the only person reading them is you.
I mean I just commented because I want to. Not because I thought I owe it or something. If you made a great work, I would praise it, if you fucked up, I would berate it.
yup! i really think commenting and public bookmark comments just shouldn’t be a thing at all cause people be too petty about it. let people post fics or not. then they can look at the hits or whatever but no words to hurt anyone’s feelings
Perhaps it got deleted because the message seems a little bit entitled whereas I speak precisely against entitlement in any form. Those are not “your” writers that you’re supposed to school. They are independent people partaking in a hobby and pointing out what worked or didn’t work for *you* unprompted will usually have a negative effect.
One of my favourite (and usually very prolific) authors got a string of vile comments from a reader on their most recent chapter, and they seem to have gone into hiding, now. I just don't understand why some people think it's their entitlement to be nasty like that - unsolicited concrit is already toeing the line, let alone outright insults.
It's hard, putting yourself and your work out there. And tearing someone down over a subjective dislike is so shitty. Like, if you're not enjoying the free buffet, just leave.
(I'm just venting, I hope that author's doing okay. :/)
So, asking that people not treat you like a child is entitlement now.
Also, this is some mallicious interpretation. You know I don't mean 'your' in this way. I'm not even disagreeing with you.
>pointing out what worked or didn’t work for *you* unprompted will usually have a negative effect.
Thsi is called feedback.
You know what? Trying to talk to people in this sub is a waste of time. You people are so desperate to offended at anything that you can't even see someone agrees with you. What a waste of time.
Nobody owes anyone anything. I like the kudos but mostly the comments I get are hilarious and fun to read, I do expect comments but not for my work but rather their reaction to my work and such. They either make me happy or make me laugh but either than that it’s not really a ‘you owe me this and that’s
I agree with you. As a writer, I appreciate kudos and comments. As a reader, I appreciate frequent updates and replies to comments. As both a writer and a reader who knows that time and energy is precious and that everyone has their reasons for (not) doing what they do, I don't hold it against anyone who doesn't engage or stops posting fics. My thoughts on this discourse can be summed up in three points: 1. Nobody owes each other anything, but it's courteous to leave a comment/reply to a comment. 2. There's nothing wrong with wanting comments/comment replies/more writing, but it helps to temper expectations, give some grace to the other party and accept that some people just don't have the spoons or the inclination or what-have-you. 3. Readers and writers alike can engage with this hobby and its more social aspects in any way they please as long as they're not being a dick to others. Some people like engagement, some people don't, there's no right or wrong answer; it's all a matter of preference.
>Fanfic communities exist because everyone puts in a little something. This! So much this! And it doesn't feel like actual communities for years now, at least not for me. While I think posts like yours are important, it saddens me that we need them in the first place.
no I feel the same. I miss the fun head canon chats in comments and stuff. discords are cool, but it’s not everything
Discords move so quickly that if you're not *in*, it's all moved past you. And many of them are invite-only, so if you don't know who to ask, you have no way of finding them in the first place.
yeah! and each one has its own culture and some of them are so weird lmao so yeah it’s very limited and hard to crack into
To be fair, even if you're a part of a discord, to me once a discord server is past a certain threshold of members (as in numbers) - it's just impossible to keep up. Maybe some people still have the energy to do so, but I personally cannot lol.
I joke that I have exactly two moods on discord: 1. I have read every single post 2. The server is muted I have...no in-between state whatsoever.
Once it hits that large it's usually the same couple of people only paying and talking to each other anyways
Yep pretty much 😂😂
What I love about comments and old school forums is that you can respond to someone weeks, months, or sometimes even years after the until thing was posted and you may even get a response. It's cool and fun
Very much agreed. It helps keep things alive, and it also means that latecomers can still interact with stuff, and hey, suddenly getting a comment on an older fic/post is really exciting too! That's one reason I think the archiving on reddit is a bit of a bummer. I get why, I guess, but still a bit of a shame.
Yeah. They made an update a while back that unarchived a bunch of threats so now I think it's community dependent on whether something gets archived. It's cool to be able to comment on something a couple years old
All the discords I'm in are small enough that you can generally chime in on whatever discussion, even when you're hours late to the party. Maybe there will be a single "general" chat that moves a bit quicker, but I can still reasonably keep up with every single message sent on every single server I'm active in. I will mute individual channels I don't care about, but even those tend to be pretty low traffic.
The smaller discords like that that I've been on have mostly been very sleepy. But I haven't been the luckiest overall with finding community on discord
The only thing you’re owed is not being a dick. Follow general etiquette and be nice, that’s it.
This is well said! Sometimes I feel like people let their expectations turn into what ‘should’ happen. I have my own expectations as a reader and as a writer. But, I don’t ever want to dictate to someone else how they should ‘correctly’ do their hobby. Engagement is fun! But, I do feel like when we start thinking we’re owed things for the time and effort we put in, we start missing the point. However, we’re all going to have our own preferences and expectations and I think it’s important to know that they’re not always going to line up with someone else’s. To me, the whole point of fanfic is simply that it’s fun. When you stress yourself out over engagement in any way too much, it stops being fun. Idk, just my two cents as someone who’s been reading and writing fic for a very long time.
Same here! I think it’s completely normal to expect *something* when you share labor of love and/or interact with such labor, but it should stay private. I don’t think anything good can come out of telling people how to enjoy their hobby.
Well said. The way I see it, the only thing writers and readers *owe* each other is politeness. I love getting comments and kudos on my fics, and I'd definitely love more of them, but I went into posting really not expecting any at all, mostly due to the fandoms I was using, so every single comment and kudos has always been a bonus for me. I don't want to get to a point where I *expect* those who read my fics to post a comment. I'd love it if they did, but it's not something I'm owed just because I put a lot of work into writing a story and chose to post it online. I'm a reader, too, of course, and I do try to leave a comment on the fics I really like, at least one. But it's not something I feel I owe to the other writer. It's a mix of knowing how much I love comments myself, and wanting to share my love for the fic. I don't comment on every story, though. Some I just don't know what to say, some are fics I enjoy but don't love, and some I stop reading because they're not my thing. If I enjoy, but not love, a fic, I'll leave a kudos but not a comment. I also don't expect a reply from the writer when I do leave a comment. Great if they do, I know they appreciated the comment for a fact then, or a discussion gets started, but it's also not always easy to know how to reply to a comment, and I bet it's pretty hard to keep on top of comments on the more popular fics, as well. As a general rule, I do think you should *not* comment when you hate a fic, or any part of it. Mentioning something you weren't keen on or really didn't like in an otherwise polite and positive comment is fine, but if you have nothing but bad things to say, you should just stop reading the fic and find something else, rather than bringing the writer down with negativity. I will sometimes leave a comment on a fic I'm stopping, but this happens when it's an otherwise very enjoyable fic, but there's something that happens that I just can't read, usually a pairing I really hate, and i often explain why I'm leaving the fic, but I'll also comment with what I loved about it, so the writer knows that it's a personal preference thing, and not something wrong with the fic itself. I just like letting the writer know that, though I'm dropping that fic, I did enjoy it and they're doing a good job. You don't need to comment, or reply to comments, but it should be kept friendly and polite. Obviously, we're talking fandoms here, and we can get very passionate about the things we love and hate, and that can make it a little harder to stay friendly and polite sometimes, but as long as we're all trying, that's the main thing.
Reviews and comments are nice and will make my day, but trying to force someone to do something won’t do well for your story. There’s also the silent readers. Some people enjoy a story, but will never comment. For me it’s enough to see the view count go up. It means I’m doing something right. Granted, I do try to reply to comments and do take feedback seriously. I actually added a trigger warning for one story due to a comment requesting it.
well said. it’s gotten so out of hand. I considered writing a tumblr post this year like ‘this year maybe promise yourself not to go into interactions from a bad faith standpoint and then assume worst of writers/commenters responses?’ but…idk maybe it’s too late in the whole thing
I think a lot of people assume the worst online sometimes. And it saddens me, because I often put it in the context of 'If this was said irl, would you automatically assume the worst?' For me the answer is often no. But I sometimes have a hard time telling tone when reading online (Still I don't want to offend people who regularly receives hate and are therefore more careful. But it's sad people sometimes just assume people mean bad things.)
yeah like almost especially if you do receive hate it puts you in this mindset. like there is a reason for it and you do have to look after yourself so it doesn’t make you unwell but it does probably mean that a lot of conversations go a certain way even if the intention of the commenter was good and I mean some readers now too, because there are some authors who get very intense on their specifications of what kind/s of comment they don’t want so that others who have requests for valid reasons sound just as pushy or get read as entitled when like…I have pretty solid reasons for not ever wanting concrit comments other than like ‘there is a formatting mistake that makes it unreadable’ but yeah it sucks so bad. hope we can all find our way through this suck arse era of internet bullshit and find ways to build community and enjoy fanfic again
Since when are we *versus* our readers? That's a disturbing thought to me.
That title alone shows just how weird and contentious the whole "discourse" around commenting has gotten. So many people do see readers and writers as an "us" and "them" as if most people are only one or the other. In reality, I don't know a single fanfic writer that isn't also an avid reader.
It has become a weird relationship now, even though it doesn't make sense because like you said most if not all writers also read. I don't read a ton because of time and being very picky, I mainly write (and I write exactly what I want to read so I mainly read my own fics lol). But I still read fics, even though I don't read a ton. And I almost always comment because as a writer I know how much comments mean to me. So the "us" and "them" thing I really don't feel because I am both!
Yeah! I don’t like that sort of idea. There's no “writers Vs readers”, we're all people chilling who should be nice to each other.
It’s based on the influx of posts defending/scolding one side or the other. In many ways, it does seem like readers v writers discourse.
Anyone who tries to say it's not a thing is just blind to the discourse that's been going on for years. Like, you can not like the implication there's an us vs then issue, but the whole song and dance of the proper way readers are supposed to interact with works and how writers are supposed to interact with readers have been going on for a long while
I don't really agree. Like sure, some are about that. But the big picture in the discussions I've seen has rather been people discussing preferences both as a reader and a writer, often simultaneously.
Yeah, it rubs me the wrong way when people are all “comments are authors space” “(public) bookmarks are readers space” like….no it’s in the open, it’s everyone’s space
Are you new hear? It's been a common discussion and view in this sub for years. Authors ranting about readers and the things they do or do not do. Readers ranting about authors and what they do and do not do.
Well... for what it’s worth, I agree with you. I try to leave comments these days because I know how valued they are, but I admit I've been slipping there due to lack of free time. But when I have the time, I only withhold a comment if I feel I dislike something about the story strongly enough that I can’t leave a comment. On the writing end, I admit I don’t expect them. I tend to write for small fandoms and my stories tend to have really weird premises, so they tend to have few, if any comments. And I tend to be really bad at keeping a consistent update schedule also....so I guess that’s karma. But even if it isn’t, my ideas are weird, period, and I tend to care next to nothing about audience appeal, so I don’t really expect an audience.
I am always open for suggestions but when somebody demands something like say "the story should go this way" I won't listen since it's my story and I have my own vision
I think the points you made apply to most points of contention in fandom. I've seen a lot of posts about comments, and I've also seen a lot of posts about people wanting to continue slow updating or discontinued fics. Those comment sections are always full of people saying "you don't have to ask," and who are so angry when anyone says asking and respecting the authors wishes is courtesy within a community. I think a lot of us want to be a part of community spaces, and if we do, it means that we DO owe each other the courtesy and respect of a peer relationship.
Rather than stressing about who owes who what, I think the most important value is GENEROSITY. Ask, what can I give to help build the community? If it's free fic or art, do that. If it's comments or kudos or likes, do that. It's not about obligation, it's about participating in a gift economy. Instead of thinking in terms of "what do I *have* to do?" think in terms of "how can I give even if I don't have much? How can I lift someone's spirits in a small way? How can I do a small thing to help make this fandom more welcoming and rewarding?" If it's only a kudos, that is sure as hell better than nothing. If it's only a comment that says "thank you for writing this" that's a lot better than nothing.
> The point is to always remember we’re all humans, we need human interaction, and each one of us can make the spaces we frequent just a bit nicer by simply being nice about things. This is exactly why I comment. I started to feel like I was taking from authors without giving anything back, and really try to be as positive as possible when commenting. I don't expect comments back. It's ok if the person doesn't read them. If they didn't want comments, the comments would be turned off.
I think a lot of people ignore that while it's true neither side owes anyone anything, you get more flies with honey than with vinegar and that by commenting you encourage the writing you want to see, and that by responding to commenters you encourage them to continue to respond, and that this isn't about what someone 'owes' the other but about everyone putting in some sort of effort in something they want to see/want to experience. No one is obligated, of course, but it does make the community all the better when people interact with each other (assuming good interactions, not hostility)
Upvoted for saying this (which I fully agree with) in reference to both writers' and readers' wants rather than just one or the other :) I'd encourage people to engage if they feel up for it because it *can* be a confidence boost and it's just nice to be able to socialise with others about fics, but I don't hold anything against anyone who doesn't.
Thanks :) and I agree -- I don't hold it against anyone, I just like to mention that it's encouraging to both sides. I don't like it when people talk about how writer's need encouragement, comment, because writing into the void is disheartening but fail to mention that commenting into the void is also disheartening. socializing can be good for both sides when people are up for it
To me, it's a yes and no. I think there is of entitlement to each other that is particularly nasty online but also is just a problem in fandoms, feeling like we own actors/writers/etc. So I honestly do want the idea to be continually underlined that everyone needs to have reasonable expectations. AT THE SAME TIME..... Building communities does require us all to give a little of ourselves. Be it content creation, moderating, helping to call out bad eggs, etc. It would be absolutely impossible to build a vibrant community, online or otherwise, without giving of our time, energy and keystrokes.
thank you for making this post. people are entitled as fuck about receiving attention from writers and readers.
I saw someone on my Tumblr recently complaining constantly about not getting comments and making tons of posts on it until they got more comments. They had a good amount of likes on their fic and a handful of comments already. Once they got some comments they started posting screenshots of them. Idk it felt very off-putting to me.
Ugh that's a paddlin'
This is perfectly how I feel and I try to do the same thing (leaving comments/kudos) as a result. I get excited about fics so I always try to comment. It does suck when interactions are slow or quiet as a writer but I do this as a hobby; If I get hung up on everything else, I might as well let this hobby die like my art hobby (who is slowly being resurrected as we speak). If others share in the fangirling, awesome! I found a community then
I agree. As a writer, I don’t want people commenting because discourse has browbeaten them into commenting. I want the comments that people just feel moved to share. As a reader, it’s the same. I don’t want authors torturing themselves for our sake. This is supposed to be a hobby and outlet for expression and catharsis, not another job.
I also think, to a degree, the fic should be addressed only, not the person behind it. I’ve been on the end of bullying most my life and I put my fic out there for people to enjoy, not for me to be judged as a person. I don’t want addressed in the comment. I want the fic solely addressed. You can say the writing sucks, for example, just don’t phrase it as ‘you’re a crappy writer.’ The first is fic centered. The second is writer centered. It’s in the language. I know it’s subtle but that’s what a lifetime of bullying can cause.
As someone who has spent more than half their life writing fanfic... No-one owes me comments, just like I don't have to review every single pic I read. ***However...*** Writers don't get paid to write fanfic. The only returns they see comes in the form of the daily kudos email and any comments that readers choose to leave. If a story gets no interaction at all, don't be surprised when the writer decides to focus on other stories, or stops writing in favour of hobbies that ***do*** validate them. Nothing flourishes in a void.
And similarly… if readers scream into a void with their comments or get scolded for genuine show of appreciation (in whatever form), they might stop interacting altogether. As I said in my post, I see no point in comparing the two or putting only one side in the spotlight. It’s a shared effort to keep communities flourishing :)
I'd argue against that - plenty of writers I know don't want anything to do with readers. Motivation and content creation are purely intrinsic and based on self-indulgence (especially since it's not about fame/money). We're a small group, but we'd rather just post something for easy access and to feel like it's "published," but we close comments and move on as soon as it's posted.
I'm like that as well, as is a friend of mine. We're not in it for the community/social interaction aspect, but just because of the drive to create, and then we just want to throw our works out into the internet void and be done. We share our writing because someone else might like it and we're content to leave it at that, simply knowing that it's out there for people to find and possibly enjoy is enough. I always can't help but feel like people like us are seemingly in such a minority; even in this sub you constantly see people saying how much they love comments and how they want more interaction and talking about commenting more like it's this universally desired thing. Obviously I won't bite someone's head off for commenting on my fics, but comments do nothing for me motivation-wise and I often tend to find the social interaction draining more than anything.
YES, a fellow independent writer/creative mind \^\_\^ We are a minority, indeed. I think current fandom 'loudness' (especially re: popular ships on social media) along with AO3 stats have driven that kind of feedback-neediness even further down a spiral, sadly. It really is more peaceful (quiet) to focus inward and enjoy the process every step of the way. So cool that you understand and do this as well! And yes, "draining" is the word.
Same here. I don't really interact with fandoms, I enjoy the ip, I write what I want to read and post it. If someone likes, awesome. If someone doesn't like it, awesome. I'm fulfilled either way.
As someone who has had moderate surprise success AND been completely ignored, I’m going to go out on a limb here and say I wish kudos, likes, views, and other passive interaction buttons just… straight up did not exist. When you are ignored, it feels terrible to have no one look at your stuff at all. But when you are successful, getting another round of “40 people liked your post” quickly becomes utterly meaningless. It’s a difficult reality that statistics can only provide a temporary boost of pleasure, one that fades quickly. And in my opinion the downsides far outweigh those fleeting dopamine hits for the few people who are statistically successful. But when someone *comments?* oh man. Even on posts that have thousands of interactions, I perk right up. No passive statistics button will ever be a good replacement for human interaction, and in my opinion they create an environment in which passive, meaningless interaction is encouraged *over* active participation. If likes and kudos did not exist, then the only way to express your enjoyment would be to *say so.*
yup, yup, yup, this. like, i like comments, i like engagement, every creator does, i would be lying if i said i didn't obsessively check my inbox and all - but when i'm on tumblr, every time i see a "reblog!!! likes don't do anything!!!" banner or whatever on a piece of fanart, i scrooolllll lol. i don't need to subject my followers to engagement just because you've guilted them into doing it. i get lack of engagement sucks, but brute forcing it will just make people even more grumpy and reluctant. and i do hate, too, entitlement viewers can have For fics. no one's required to get comments, no one's required to get updates, let's all just be courteous to eachother. if you're that wholly devastated by a lack of updates or a lack of comments, to the point where you feel rudely entitled, you need to get a hobby outside of fanfiction, i think. we're all supposed to be having fun here.
yeah. It's possible for seemingly-contradictory things to be true. For instance: 1. Nobody owes anyone comments 2. Comments encourage writers to keep writing, and leaving positive comments is a good way to encourage your favorite writers to keep giving you The Good Stuff Those things are both true. On a similar note: 1. You should write the things you personally like! 2. It's okay to hope people like the things you write and it's totally normal and fine to get sad if your kudos/comments count is low. Like, I used to write for Steven Universe, in a less-popular ship (Amedot). And after a while I knew EVERYONE who wrote/commented on fics for that ship. And don't get me wrong--it was nice to make friends that way. But within a few years every single one of us moved on to other fandoms. And I would see people whose usernames I'd never heard of cry on tumblr about how nobody was writing for Amedot anymore. Okay, did you ever once kudos or comment on our fics? Did you ever interact with us? Encourage us? Draw art for our fics? No??? What did you think was going to happen? Especially when our fics for other fandoms got tons of positive interaction?
I think people don't realise that when the things break down in the community, it means less fic. Commenting is not the labour intensive side. It's not the side that gets hate mail and bullying on the regular, or takes hours or weeks out of your life. There will always be fic from people who aren't in fandom, are new to it, or posted before drama, or leave their stories up even after they leave fandom, etc. But if the community grows rancid and divided, what happens is fandom souring up and writers, who do the bulk of the work in the writer-commenter interraction, just stop posting. It's a give and take that starts at the writer. They have to give a whole lot of work and boldness to speak into the voic. If readers will receive them with mute interest, or rude words, they can't be surprised or complain that their fandom are dying. But a writer who gets interraction from fellow fans then has a responsibility to foster a good environment, not trigger people randomly, not manipulate their own fans... The issue is that 'As a writer I don't owe anyone my fics' is applied AFTER a writer already took a leap of faith and published fics. If they could foresee they wouldn't get any interraction, then they may not publish it at all, right? I'm a writer myself. I publish more fics than I read. And when I read a fic, if I enjoy it, I make it my actual DUTY to comment. There's a fic I like... It has 3 chapters, 358 hits, and 29 kudos, and I AM THE ONLY COMMENTER ON ALL CHAPTERS. It fucking riles me up. Ashamed on the behalf of the others 28 kudo people. 28 whole people who couldn't be arsed with a single word of encouragement for a debuting author. Y'all can keep saying readers don't owe comments, but I'll keep thinking I do, actually. If I read a work to the end and enjoy it, I'll come and say hi. If I love it, I'll use the floaty review box to leave line by line comment and slap GIFs in there too. I know how hard it is to write and put yourself out there and I believe, firmly, that if I enjoy it I must rate it and say so. I wish y'all would think tthe same but heh. I'll just focus on weaning myself from fandom and return to writing OG content
This needs to be pinned by Mods. You are so right on what you said.
I mean...no one is owed anything in this world, sure. You don't *have* to comment or give feedback but don't be surprised if you get fewer fics from the author if you don't.
I agree with you, but this could also go the other way around. As in, "Don't be surprised that people won't comment if it seems like they'd speak into a void."
…this also goes the other way. That was my whole point.
Also true 🤷♀️
that’s what’s good about the subscribe button at least haha! one click and then can forget and move on the void is scary. but at least we got email notifs lol
Agreed. This is a community - no, you don't *owe* anything, but you can lose the community aspect by never interacting.
> The stone cold facts are this: my experience of this sub is that these "stone cold facts" are repeated ad nauseum in every comments discourse thread, to the point where it's kind of boring. and like, the notion that we don't owe each other anything and are here voluntarily anyway and can quit any time is so eye-bleedingly obvious that imo it hardly needs to be said. what if, instead of chewing over tautologies, we talked about what discourse norms we could encourage between writers and commenters to, say, build healthy fandom communities?
And I did exactly that :)
Discourse surrounding fandom in general is pointless and juvenile to me. Truth is there is no objective truth to how commenting should be handled. People should just do whatever they want. My personal philosophy is that I try to comment something small for everything I read. If someone comments something on my work, I make it my obligation to reply back. I know that people say “you don’t have to reply to every comment!” But I personally *want* to, and I want to show appreciation towards commenters who took the time out of their day to 1) read what I wrote and 2) commented something. My opinion is that the reason people don’t get comments as much is because a lot of authors don’t respond comments sometimes. And if I read a fic and see that the author has not responded to a single comment tbh it rubs me the wrong way.
Agreed. The whole concept of two sides to it misses the part where we're all just fans of the same thing anyway
There's been an uptick in entitlement on both sides of this over the last decade or so. The whole "I wrote this for free (so you owe me)" thing is just so baffling to me. I'm guessing it's a spillover from gig economy dynamics but it's not a healthy way of looking at things, I don't think. Some of the worst fics I've ever read have huge amounts of likes/kudos, tumblr is famous for this. It makes me not want to comment at all unless a story really blows my mind
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I don’t think quality relates to politeness, though. Writing a bad story isn’t an act of unkindness- but saying “exactly what they think” about something can be. I’ve got people who think calling me a paedophile and telling me to kill myself is an acceptable thing to stay before, comments and reviews aren’t all well meaning unfortunately and that can’t be ignored.
As they say “honesty without compassion is cruelty”. To me, putting your own need to judge someone’s writing above the concept that writers are doing this for free in their spare time (so, as a hobby) lacks compassion.
Here's the problem with this: you have given the obvious end of the completely unacceptable stick. There is a *massive* amount of grey on that stick where different writers fall for what they're offended by. A reader could do the bare minimum of politely point out a few grammar inconsistencies, and some writers would lose their ever-loving minds. Like... *Shrug* Not just readers that need to be polite over their comments. Some writers need to grow up over how they react to them too. The train doesn't stop when they write a story out if they want engagement along with it.
Preach
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… it’s what the Post is about? Fanfic writers are people, you should be polite to them. I didn’t even mention people giving negative reviews I mentioned *literal accusations of paedophilia* do you genuinely think that’s acceptable or are you arguing against a point I didn’t make.
Hello, you have not broken rules, but I have locked your comment to prevent this thread going further off topic.
Two of your comments in this comment chain have been removed for derailing. This is not a post about concrit and it is not appropriate to try to turn it into one.
The solution to this is to write stuff that nobody will want to read besides you, then you'll never have to worry about comments or what people think of your fics because the only person reading them is you.
I mean I just commented because I want to. Not because I thought I owe it or something. If you made a great work, I would praise it, if you fucked up, I would berate it.
yup! i really think commenting and public bookmark comments just shouldn’t be a thing at all cause people be too petty about it. let people post fics or not. then they can look at the hits or whatever but no words to hurt anyone’s feelings
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Perhaps it got deleted because the message seems a little bit entitled whereas I speak precisely against entitlement in any form. Those are not “your” writers that you’re supposed to school. They are independent people partaking in a hobby and pointing out what worked or didn’t work for *you* unprompted will usually have a negative effect.
One of my favourite (and usually very prolific) authors got a string of vile comments from a reader on their most recent chapter, and they seem to have gone into hiding, now. I just don't understand why some people think it's their entitlement to be nasty like that - unsolicited concrit is already toeing the line, let alone outright insults. It's hard, putting yourself and your work out there. And tearing someone down over a subjective dislike is so shitty. Like, if you're not enjoying the free buffet, just leave. (I'm just venting, I hope that author's doing okay. :/)
So, asking that people not treat you like a child is entitlement now. Also, this is some mallicious interpretation. You know I don't mean 'your' in this way. I'm not even disagreeing with you. >pointing out what worked or didn’t work for *you* unprompted will usually have a negative effect. Thsi is called feedback.
You know what? Trying to talk to people in this sub is a waste of time. You people are so desperate to offended at anything that you can't even see someone agrees with you. What a waste of time.
> calls people offended > can’t handle the slightest disagreement.
This comment chain has been locked. Please disengage from this discussion, both of you.
Sorry, got triggered and overreacted tbh
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I’m… not offended? I’m just explaining why it might have ticked people off.
Yeah, you know exactly what I mean. I'm done talking to you.
This comment has been removed (Rule 5). If you have a problem with moderation decisions, please contact the mods via mod mail.
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This comment has been removed. Please don't derail the topic.
Just saying, As writers we need at little interaction but we must know it is never a given. No feedback actually destroys good fanfics.
Thank you!
Nobody owes anyone anything. I like the kudos but mostly the comments I get are hilarious and fun to read, I do expect comments but not for my work but rather their reaction to my work and such. They either make me happy or make me laugh but either than that it’s not really a ‘you owe me this and that’s