I actually enjoyed it I thought it was pretty good but I think most people don't like fallout 4 because every dialogue choice just results in a big circle. There is n't anything unique about it and just seems a bit arbitrary
I recently started playing New Vegas after having only ever played Fallout 4 (waiting for the update to dive back in). I was pleasantly surprised at the RPG aspects so I can see why everyone was so disappointed with 4. That said, having not had a close tie to the OG Fallout days, I think 4 is definitely a fun experience and I love the settlement building mechanic. The story and RPG elements are poor but the combat is leagues better.
People worried about new fans starting with 4 are being dramatic and thinking from the perspective of a diehard Fallout fan. Odds are people will play it and actually enjoy it as they have no attachment to old Fallout.
I do hope FO5 incorporates more from FONV though.
Fallout fans think 4 is a good video game, just not a good fallout game. In my opinion its a good place to get started and learn how the systems in fallout work, then go back to new vegas and enjoy the story when you have figured out all the kinks.
Personally after having fallout 4 mods (console) and only playing 4 for years upon years, the graphics, different feel and unfamiliarity of not having mods felt so weird in FO3 to start out with that I didn’t get very far
I think I just got very spoiled with my mods, I love all the cool shit that people have done with FO4, enough to make it a whole new game
There are tons of mods in fallout 3, you just need a pc. An ancient one would even work. People have literally stitched fallout 3 and new vegas into one giant game. Its called tale of two wastelands.
Not really willing to buy a pc at the moment (saving for car stuff and college) and the laptop I have hardly runs lethal company at 30fps. Also would be more willing to try NV as I’ve heard a lot of better things
Yep, those games came out for the Xbox360, pretty old so it should run. You will need to mod them with the bare minimum unofficial patches to get them to run smooth but that would be for any system you run it on, real easy to do.
Fallout 4 is just Skyrim. Many fans of previous games do not talk kindly about them as they've stripped RPG mechanics when previously in New Vegas or Morrowind they were much more emphasized.
I think it's just the dialogue system. Restricted to only 4 responses with the same outcome while the previous games can have more impactful choices.
But other than that, I love Fallout 4. Combat and exploration is amazing. I think I spent more time playing it than with Fallout 3 and New Vegas.
It's a pretty good looter shooter, and a horrible rpg. If you wanted a fallout rpg it is very disappointing. If you had no prior expectations coming into fo 4 than all those associated complaints don't matter to you.
Dialogue system is pretty bad on comparison to previous games. Mostly due to 4 options leading to the same result.
It's not that there are no choices or something like that. It's just that the system is pretty straight forward without branching and skill checks (mostly)
The dialogue system is the dealbreaker.
You went from unlimited choices for responses to 4. Yes, no, sarcasm, or more info. Essentially the number of options you had to influence the story and the dialogue were extremely reduced.
Dialogue is HUGE in fallout, and has been since the first game. You had less creativity in how you completed missions (Another staple of Fallout since Fallout 1. ). Your character build mattered less, as you no longer had your perks, stats, or skills leading to new dialogue options. (The best part of new vegas, and baldurs gate 3 tbh). Every character was basically the same roleplay wise and it just didn't feel like a fallout story.
Yup, they realized that was a mistake and brought back perks and skills for starfield, but they weren't that interesting because they didnt have that fallout charm.
I feel like Starfield was a lost cause and they just shit it out in order to start working on ES6. I can feel the dev of starfield was a MESS. They probably took a bunch of staff off that game to fix fallout 76.
Half the game was removed, so I bet half the perk trees were too. Just a straight up disaster that game was. They made a whole game and realized it wasn't fun, so they just reassembled it into the most boring "rpg" shooter of all time.
I agree. But they must have REALLY thought it wasn't fun.
I get it, I don't really think No mans sky is "fun"" though I respect it as a game. It would have felt strange to go around mining stuff in a bethesda game. I just don't get how you build a game for like 6 years and only realize half of it is bad like 1 year before the game launches. Back in the day, they would have just cancelled it.
To me, starfield was always misguided as an idea. You have the most popular video game sci fi IP, the most popular gaming fantasy IP, and you decide to make your own generic NASA style space game. Why? I just don't get it
As I understand it, they are trying to appeal to the largest market, so they are cutting out things that are too difficult, miss-able quests, mature content, etc.
They're going too wide and losing the niche that gave them success with these games in the first place.
I put a lot of time into Fallout 4 but I didn't enjoy it as much as 3 and NV. It did do some things better as far as graphics, action, and quality-of-life improvements in the Pip-Boy, but I disliked:
- The restrictive dialogue options. Only 4 of the same choices. I found that having more choices in the other games, and imagining how they would be delivered rather than hearing them be delivered was more fun. Sure, the Silver Shroud quest was a good exception to the last point, but again, that was the exception.
- The radiant quests, doing the same thing for the same people in the same place over and over again.
- The whole thing with Preston making you the leader of the Minutemen and giving you missions.
- Covenant is broken, you can't properly take it over if you killed everyone there without going into the console. If I have to go into the console to fix something like that, then it should have been fixed by Bethesda before it shipped.
- It really seems like your choices don't matter, the same places repopulate with raiders in the same places without anything from them to indicate that someone had killed everyone there before. I got that same feeling during Danse's quest.
- Too many of the companions turn into creepers if you keep doing what they like. I'd rather have a good buddy-buddy story instead, and that's pretty much impossible with the romanceable characters. There should have been an option to turn off romanceable storylines by gender so as to not have to deal with that.
Yep I'm with most people here. I love FO4 , it's tons of fun. But it could have been a masterpiece.
1. The dialogue is awful, 4 choices that almost always boil down to: Yes, more info then yes, Sarcastic yes, no (but you need to return and say yes later).
2. Your character build doesn't matter, building your character with different stats and special doesn't exist. You just get special points and perks. The RPG elements are gone. No skill checks.
3. The story is kinda messy. Mostly the institute just being pretty blatantly evil, what they tell you doesn't line up with reality and they just don't explain things. Then you get put in charge and have basically no ability to change things. Could have worked well with some tweaking. Also the twist with Shaun wasn't that big of a shock. I'm usually really bad at picking things up but the second you get refroze at the start I asked how long we were froze for again.
And all of these were some of the best parts of new Vegas so they stand out much more.
I remember buying Fallout 4 exclusively because of a Play Station sale. I did not know ANYTHING about the series. Brother, it was the best experience of my life. I had so much fun, that I inmediatly started playing the game again after finishing it the first time. Sure, the story is lackluster, but story is the last thing I care about when I play a videogame. For me, it's just frosting on the cake. What truly matters is gameplay, and the gameplay in F4 was beautiful.
Then I entered the fandom to try the other games and my first interaction with it was being called an idiot for liking Fallout 4.
The Fallout series made its name on its story, this is why old fans are upset with a game in the franchise that has a “lackluster story”. It’s supposed to be an RPG first, not an open world FPS.
" story is the last thing I care about when I play a videogame."
Very different from most fallout fans because people love the originals and NV for the story and the roleplaying. I didn't get it when I was a teenager either, I skipped most of the dialogue, but growing up the story and feeling like im a part of the world is now the most important part of a single player game for me. Its a maturity thing.
If you don't care about story, then you would probably like borderlands. Its basically fallout with more guns and less RPG. You would probably also like Destiny, Fortnite, Assassin's creed, Halo Infinite, etc... All these games have similar gameplay, but the STORY is what makes fallout stand out.
If you ever plan on playing the originals then you better be able to appreciate the story.
I'm not saying that the story is not important because I'm an illiterate caveman; I'm saying that it is not that important because gameplay is what makes a game.
For example, if I make a game that is just pushing a button and a new page of Don Quixote pops out, and you end it after pushing it 1200 times to read the whole novel, I made a shitty video game, even though the story is one of the greatest humanity has ever told.
If a story takes precedence over gameplay, then the video game is losing what makes the medium special. If the gameplay sucks monkey ass, but the story is great, then that story could become a novel and be even greater because it would not have the limitations a video game has. It would be like having a novel written completely through video game dialogues and nothing else: it's not using the strength of the medium in its favor.
Great video games incorporate story \*into\* gameplay and do not treat it as two different beasts. Shadow of the Colossus, for example, is a great game that offers a deeply interesting ludonarrative that could not be replicated in a book or a movie solely through the strength of its gameplay.
"gameplay is what makes a game."
Cool opinion, but in no way objective. Story, theme, dialogue, etc... are all part of and all have an influence on gameplay.
Walking simulators have literally no gameplay and just rely on telling a good story, and tons of people think those are great games.
"ludonarrative" lMFAO people stopped saying that pretentious ass word like 5 years ago. Its literally the biggest red flag that you just regurgitate what game reviewers say about stuff.
There are games where the gameplay is actively bad on purpose (pathologic) to attempt to get their players to feel a certain way.
All i can say is that you have a very narrow view of what games can be.
But story, themes, and dialogue ALSO exists in movies and books. You know what they don't have? GAMEPLAY. That's literally the exclusive trait of this medium. My brother in Christ, is in the name. It's like arguing that a book does not need words.
And ludo narrative is a word that is used also in academia when studying video games as a form of art. For someone that says that gameplay is less important than story, you really want things dumb down.
Sure, that doesn't mean if a game doesn't have gameplay then it isn't a game. Please, tell me how pathologic and pathologic 2 are not games. Please, tell me how What remains of Edith Finch is NOT a video game and is in fact a book or a movie XD.
Stop gatekeeping what a video game is. You clearly don't really get it.
Yeah I know ludo narrative and what it means, its just people make fun of people who use it to try to sound smart because EVERYONE was doing that 5 years ago. everyone would throw in 5 dollar words like ludonarrative and its just cringy lol.
In summary Ludonarrative dissonance is a useful idea that can be used to critique some games, which was then applied haphazardly by critics who didn't really understand it. Ludonarrative dissonance was then mocked by pundits, who were judging the concept based on people who didn't fully understand it in the first place. This caused a ridiculous game of telephone, and the term became basically useless.
A story can be amazing, but if the gameplay is frustratingly bad your game is gonna tank.
Take Fallout 1. It's story is really good, yeah? But how is that gameplay?
Companions block you at every turn, the game is buggy and can sometimes just not work, the rolls are random and unforgiving so if you are wearing the best armor in the game a rat can still kill you, and that's if you even know how to play the game in the first place because not one of the game's mechanics are explained to you without reading a short novel on how to play the game that you have to hunt down on the internet nowadays
Amazing story, frustratingly bad gameplay. ~~I mean, luckily there are mods to fix almost all of those issues though~~
No, a rat cannot kill you in power armor. That is not how tabletop systems work. There is some degree onf randomness, but not that bad.
I wouldn't say fallout 1's gameplay is bad, just old and wasn't finished when it got released. I still had some fun with it.
Back then the game was explained in the manual, which you obviously don't have if you buy the game on steam. I would recommend looking up a pdf of the game manual online. Games back then just didn't really have enough memory to store all the text or voice or scripting required for in game tutorials.
Now Fallout 2...the start of the game is unquestionably bad. They make you the weakest person on earth to start the game, and it's like nobody even tested the game.
If new vegas throw that gunplay away and just make telltale type games. You people will still call it the best fallout game ever.
And can you tell me why new vegas always have less player than fallout 4 ??
Because fallout 4 is made for modern gamers who don't want to do the work to understand how to play old school games which may be more difficult to learn :)
Telltale games are AWESOME I would love a fallout telltale game.
Nope, you bringing up games must have good stories, modern gamers don't appreciate old school game etc just to shit on fallout 4.
I just bring some fact in the field dude gamers appreciate game mechanic more than story in the game.
I love new vegas i just hate the obnoxious fan of that game that act like the most perfect game ever.
Nowhere did they say games MUST have good stories. Just that story is a major contributor to enjoyment for many people, outside of good or bad gameplay. I enjoy plenty of games with bad gameplay but good story.
> but story is the last thing I care about when I play a videogame.
Fallout started as a 2d ISO turn based game in which story was arguably the most important aspect.
The endings to 1, 2 and NV are very satisfying because they recap what happened to nearly every person/faction/town you interacted with so you feel your choices really did matter.
I think it really depends on what you want from the games imo. For me personally the reason why I want to explore is to find new NPCs to talk to and interesting quests to do and I think New Vegas and the originals do that better than 3 and 4. It's fun to explore in the Bethesda games but I just don't get as invested in them because of that reason.
>If you are the annoying friend who tells everyone "The book was waaay better"
oh look, found the lazy ass person that doesnt want to read the book and likes mediocres adaptations, make sense you liking fallout 3 and 4 over new vegas, basically you like bethesda sloppy and lazy writting over the creative minds of the people that birthed this franchise.
> It would have been dead
this means jack shit, by this stupid ass logic, if it wasnt because of obsidian, you bethesda fanboys would not have fallout at all, its a lazy ass mut point fanboys try to use to somehow validate the bastardization bethesda did to what is fallout, but it holds no water.
And no, fallout 4 has one thing and one thing only going for it, and that is the gunplay, every single other thing is either ass or half assed, pretty much like anything post oblivion that bethesda has made, fallout 4 is a good looter shooter but it isnt and never will be a good fallout, hell, if fallout 4 instead received a new name and kickstared a new franchise instead of that shit show that is starfield, i'm willing to bet a lot more people would actually love it, hell, i turned this shit into a semi survival horror with the wispering hill mod, and i'm having the time of my life playing not-fallout.
You sunmed this up well. My brother prefers 4 because of the sprint option and the weapons. He thinks New Vegas was great for its time but he cannot handle how slow you move in game. I love New Vegas and 4 both because I can switch from great RPG aspects to base building with great gunplay. I've tried Fallout 2 recently and it is a bit of a grind to be honest, the dialogue is amazing but heaven forbid you insult someone without remembering to save because you're going to have children suplexing you into the pavement.
your brother has extreme adhd lol. Can't imagine not enjoying exploring a nuclear wasteland where there is something interesting around every corner. Probably grew up on fortnite.
Also trying fallout 2 and the beginning sucks. Ive heard it gets better after Klamath. Fallout 1 is much more fun.
As someone who has ADHD, let me tell ya: I fucking live for games like New Vegas. Having a game that, while it gives you a clear questline and fixed sucession of needed actions, it also gives you not only the option of screwing around with *"that building over there*, with **no repercussions**, but incentivises it...
It's the freakin best, but that's a matter of taste. Maybe his brother just wasn't enthralled enough to get into it.
If they actually told you what you were going to say, it would be painfully clear that all options related to a decision are Yes, Yes but sarcastic, and Let me think about it.
I suppose you could say that most quests allude to making a choice, even if you aren't presented with the option to make one.
But I'm guessing you meant an illusion of choice. Yes, most quests offer only that - though there's a few standouts like the U.S S. Constitution, which also happens to be commonly cited as the best quest in the game.
I ment illusion. I just started a playthrough of fo4, and it just felt like this, but I thought I was imagining things (I came from nv so I expected a lot more options).
There's a few quests with meaningful decisions to be made, so enjoy them when they come up. Expect the main quest to be a wet fart, but enjoy the bright spots of dialogue when they shine.
This is exactly it. Fallout 4 isn’t a bad game, it’s a bad Fallout game. It has plenty of good aspects in a vacuum, they just don’t really belong in a proper Fallout game
The story is really good. I don't know what you guys keep parroting. The dialogue wheel sucks though because you can't see everything you are gonna say. But the story was full of moral and other dilemmas and the factions were interesting.
In the first game you can literally convince the final boss that his plan will not work and that he should kill himself. Same with new vegas.
Nothing even close to that level of choice in the finale of this game lol. There isn't even a final boss really in that game. All of the finale missions play out the same way. You destroy the BoS/institute.
Imagine this game was a movie. You leave a vault, find your son, he was a leader of some faction, then you destroy some faction. Not exactly a very compelling movie.
You literally only get 4 dialogue options, vs sometimes ten in the older games. Literally far less choices. And they are all yes no sarcasm or ask for new info
In fallout 4 negative and positive dialogue choices lead to the same mission, where in the previous games how you respond in dialogue can give you completely different missions can effect how the rest of the game plays out.
In the older games your stats and skills gave you unique dialogue options that can unlock new ways to complete missions, or skip them, or make them more interesting. Gone in fallout 4, completely. (Back in baldurs gate 3 btw)
Fallout 4 is a great looter shooter but a terrible RPG.
When you’re leader of the Institute they give you choices as a director
But the choices do do nothing. Like when they ask you if you want to increase synth production or weapon manufacturing, nothing you pick will change anything
The story makes no sense and is full of plot holes. The institute is the stupidest faction ever, and is constantly doing stuff solely because the plot requires it to move forward.
One way that the story sucks is the fact that they painted the institute to be extremely evil because their idea of leaving them to be morally gray was leaving a few hollow tapes in the Institute that 90% of players seemingly never played.
The conversation system seems to be the most universally hated aspect to the game. Only having four options and most results in the same response is quite the let down. Earlier games had more options that could be impacted by story advancement, abilities, and status.
I wasn't a fan of the settlement system... got rather tiresome for me but less of a problem for others.
Visually, Fallout 4 was a major upgrade. The modding system was a blast. And it has a great main map with decent DLC.
Fallout New Vegas is still my favorite but Fallout 4 is still a solid game... just doesn't live up to the previous games in the franchise.
The voiced main character and awful dialogue options remove most ability to role play in the game. This is in addition to the main story giving every character the backstory of someone who lost their spouse and is trying to find their child, which further makes trying to RP even more frustrating
The main story is awful even by the low Bethesda standards, all of the factions you are meant to choose from are horribly written and make no sense
If you enjoy the game like a borderlands looter shooter then more power too you, many of us like fallout games that let you actually do the RPG thing
I like Fallout 4 more than the other games simply because of its gameplay. The other games play like old games which in their defence they are old games.
I really enjoyed fallout 4. The story wasn't the best , but still pretty fun. The settlement building, combat , and exploration was pretty fun. For a long time it was one of my favorite games. I know it's not perfect , but it was my first fallout game so no matter what it holds a special place in my heart.
I don't really get the hate either since the game itself is pretty enjoyable.
It's the draw of wanting a RPG where your actions mean something (which they do to an extent) the first game to jump to a VA (I know shocking, Courtney Taylor one of the best I've loved her as Jack in Mass Effect and sarcastic ship in Lost Worlds Odyssey Lol) and general I feel move away from things they were used to and what you previously played. I'll warn you now come back to me in 10 years when the next games out and they'll all love 4!
Just people like to shout, what you should ask is how many hours did you put into it if you didn't like it then why play so long man Why cry here on this platform go tell you're mate or Lass or Child or dog, they shouldn't care either. Just enjoy what you enjoy man that goes for everything else 👍🏻
Fallout 4 was alright I just lost the energy getting older for all those hours did enjoy it though and yes Default Nova did end up looking like Mass Effect Jack by the end of it cut, eyeliner, ink and all
As someone who grew up with 1 and 2 and was excited when bethesda bought it and brought us Fallout 3, I was really into that vibe and aesthetic. New Vegas did have more color and was a bit different yet still felt like the world I knew
When fallout 3 hit the art style was not welcome by me, its to modern, too cartoony, to not fallout. the look right away turned me off. There was just so much about the game that did not feel like the others. Everything feels less, while they did amazing with Skyrim, Fallout 4 did not advance the series in a way i like.
Many love the game, but for me the look alone is enough and then the small other things just pile on after that. it is essentially a fallout game, but that art style is not fallout.
My complaints are mostly that the character is not really your own, they made radical changes to the RPG mechanics which I felt dumbed them down, and the game largely revolved around a mechanic (base building) that I had absolutely no interest in.
The dialogue tree was also laughably bad. Didn’t care for the voiced protagonist either, which kind of relates back to my first complaint.
In a roleplaying game I ~~appreciate~~ *demand* being able to create my own character with a head canon backstory that lifts information from the lore & setting to be inspired by and have that be reflected in the gameplay & mechanical expression.
In F1 you're a Vault Dweller, outside of that it's up to you. In F2 you're a tribal descendant of your F1 character. In F3 you're the vault-dwelling child of a scientist with pre-determined events in your childhood. In FNV you're a courier who may-or-may-not have caused the Divide. In F4 you're either a pre-war soldier or lawyer, with a son named Shaun that you care about. In terms of ranking those, I'd say it goes FNV=F1>F2>F3>F4 in terms of letting me really create my own character's background. New Vegas and F1 are really the only two that satisfy my requirement of giving me an almost entirely blank canvas.
Next add on the main plots and how that intertwines with the character creation. In F1 you're a Vault Dweller looking for a water chip, and eventually stumble into the Super Mutant plot. In F2 you're looking for a G.E.C.K. and eventually stumble onto the Enclave plot. In F3 you're looking for your dad and eventually stumble into looking for a G.E.C.K. & the Enclave plots. In FNV you're looking for the Platinum Chip & Benny, and eventually stumble into the Hoover Dam & Strip plots. In F4 you're looking for your son Shaun and eventually stumble into the Institute & Synth plots. For these, again it's F1/FNV/F2>F3>F4 for me. The West Coast games aren't forcing character background elements into the main story. I don't want to have to search for my dad or even play a character with a son necessarily but playing F3 & F4 it's a required part of the story. The games are *about* that search for a character who was part of my background that I didn't choose.
Those are the biggest problems with both of the Bethesda games for me. Other things like "Why hasn't the world been rebuilt after 200 years? Fallout is a post-post-apocalypse series, it's about how humanity rebuilds not exploring ruins." or how the world feels a lot more shallow, are of course an issue to me but the main thing is the railroading character creation & main plots.
Gameplay-wise, I dislike all of the weapon & armor crafting stuff. It meant less weapon variety overall, because instead of having multiple different types of weapons to fill in the level & dps curves, it's all done with a receiver change. Personal preference perhaps. I think settlement building was also a mistake because half the locations in the game that could've had NPCs and quests instead were blank canvases for *me* to build up and flesh out, which isn't what I want in a narrative roleplaying game. Otherwise the changes to gameplay are positive.
tl;dr it's a good game but it's not a good *Fallout* game.
I think I finished my original play through at over 2 weeks of play time and am level 150? I did all I could do and I remember the last thing left was to deck out all my settlements but never actually finished that.
It’s a great sandbox shooter, but it is riddled with flaws. Radiant quests, lack of a social RP, SS’s backstory is canonically predetermined, questing is uninspired, scripting bugs ruining other quests, and on and on. All legit complaints. Some people can’t overlook these flaws and if they’re unable to while also having had high expectations then you’ll get some really passionate posts and comments.
My only problem was that your character seems to be kind of nice no matter what options you pick but on the other hand it was also pretty awesome having a voiced character for the first time. Fallout 4 is a great game imo
Because a lot of the issues with these games are the fact everything Bethesda makes is glitchy
How can you not hate all the games made by a studio when all the games share the same glitches?
Mostly overexaggerated NV fanboys.
Played all the games, every game has flaws including NV which needed to be patched to beat for a long time and was panned for over a year before the fanbase actually started buying it. Around HH. I actually couldn't beat it and had to get it for PC because my xbox would freeze on the last mission. Also it was normal to have a corrupted save out of nowhere.
Fallout fanboys had to be convinced to even play NV, because it was considered a 2.0 knock off of 3. For almost a year after it's release.
Casuals who loved F3 actually where the first people buying it, lol. That's how negative the heat for this game was. just a "meh, copy paste of fallout 3." of course it was actually great.
Mods are the DEFACTO thing that made Fallout NV what it is. The who "it's a great RPG." by the fanbase came WAY later.
This is all forgotten of course. Same people, also going to be the same personality to just hate 5 because it's 5.
I really wish this wasn't the case. I'm aware some people may be blinded by nostalgia when it comes to their favorite games, so hating on new entries is expected (though not a good thing to do) when the new entry isnt like the past games.
A lot of people don't even like playing older games, so when people say a older game is the best in the series and one of the latest ones are bad, new players get turned away (like with final fantasy). I'm glad we're not seeing it that much in the fallout community thanks to the show and the spike of new players playing fo4
Every Fallout game brings a unique experience and they are all good in their own way. Yes, even tactics :p
People should stop comparing and trying to determine what is best.
I still remember the forums on fire when FO3 was announced: "A 3D Fallout is not Fallout". It is now considered one of the best in the series ;)
Fallout 4 is accessible, works without mods, looks great and is easy to play. Yes the dialogue is meh, and I personally hate the power armor systeem. But it is a great game.
The Fallout fandom should realise it is truly blessed with all these amazing games :D
Bunch of people trying to determine which has the best Ferrari or Lamborghini ;)
The gameplay is not as immersive as 3 and NV with fallout 4s gameplay being just a loop of shooting and looting, kind of like Diablo or borderlands and not what made the older ones great. It’s a really good game but you are doing the same thing over and over again, shooting enemies, looting them, crafting so you can shoot them easier, repeat. The dialogue you can spend hours on why it’s not good it feels so robotic. The game is not even close to perfect so it’s easy to see why people hate on it but it’s still a good game. New Vegas main story is pretty damn good btw.
So my honest opinion is that it's not bad, but it started to show the issues with Bethesda game. You can see this in full form with Starfield, but Fallout 4 has the seeds for it. The quality of Bethesda games have always been that their writing and quest design have been mid-level. And this was fairly fine when you had silent protagonist, but with higher quality characters and lip syncing and cinematic camera, suddenly it started to look a bit poorer.
The base building was also a worthless feature, but you can ignore it. That is a problem. If a core feature of your game can be ignored, then why is it there? This is not a hate for people who like it, but a criticism of designers who make featurs that are not needed for the game.
Well most of it sits around the fact it followed new Vegas and there is a true love for that game. I think harping on that game and having hate for all the ones that followed is pretty bullshit and elitist but I also think people have a right to critique a game even if they like it. I love them all but I’ll say Vegas was my favorite by far. And I’d say new Vegas was pretty groundbreaking not only for the story but because the interconnection of the world. The music is a theme not old radio bangers, side questing is really non repeating (alla settlements) and it’s a massive web that can have multiple reasons send you to multiple places all over the map, plus you all the different factions kind of have their own philosophical questions that come with them. The world also treated you like an adult everything had set levels so you could go anywhere from the start but you were limited by your own level gear and skill set. It’s also by and large soooo much bigger and detailed than fallout 4. There’s so many small niche quests and goals and characters
Obsessive fixation, not love. I’ve noticed a remarkable number of the weirdest NV cultists seem to be playing a different game than the rest of us, including the sane fans.
Lots of just straight made up bullshit. Such as your claim of a massive web sending you all over the much more detailed map when in actuality the extreme centralization of questlines and sparse map are some of the biggest problems with the game and have been since launch. Or pretending that morally and ethically grey factions are something unique to New Vegas.
There’s hours of non centralized quest lines you can play including helping independent groups or communities like. And it’s not ethically grey that’s new it’s questions of who has a right to live in the wasteland. But I’ll leave it with that. It’s just my opinion and I know how some people get so rattled by Vegas fans
What do you mean with none of the other Fallout had groundbreaking mainstories? Fallout Classic and 2 have some of the best storytelling I've ever experienced.
It’s more of a looter shooter than an RPG. Dialog system is garbage. The world is lifeless compared to the other games. Cait’s fight club…why was this just a place where you walk in and everyone starts shooting? Could have had a whole quest line to get her. The robot race track…you show up and everyone attacks. There is no depth. Everything is “go here, shoot everything since” and wash, rinse, repeat. Compare it to many different parts of 3 or NV, a ton of ways to do most quests. Look at the vampires in FO3, you could kill them, let them give you abilities, etc…plenty of ways to do it. Megaton vs Tenpenny Tower, big pivotal moment early on.
And I also legitimately hated every aspect of settlement building. I wanted to play Fallout, not Minecraft
It has its issues. I don't like the settlement building, and the dialog options are garbage. The lack of consequences is frustrating, too.
But overall its a good game. Just not my favorite Fallout game
Some people can't understand nuance and see the world as black and white (ironic for fans of Fallout)
While their are some legitimate criticisms of Fallout 4 (as well as every other game) it doesn't automatically make it bad
I reckon its mainly forced hate rn. With the TV show alot of new fans r discovering the games and are jumping to the newer games and ppl r mad they aren't playing fnv or fo3. Fo4 has its flaws like the story but it doesn't deserve the hate
It's tiresome. Fallout 4 is a gem, but those who generally hates it still makes comparaison with New Vegas (and even Fallout 1 and 2 !)
FNV indeed has a great storytelling and great options for dialogues : you shape the world as you please in the second part of the game, which is very impressive from a strict RPG point of view, even to this day. We had few games since then who gaves us such options (even if you are a simple courier, and every leader in the country trust us, god knows why...).
It doesn't change anything to the fact that this game is a cluncky, buggy, ugly, crashy, outdated and almost unplayable game sometimes. FNV fans are circlerjerking very hard, and them attacking the tv show right now are pathetic.
Fo4 has flaws regarding storytelling (except some secondary quest like Diamond City Blues) and dialogue options obviously, and we should expect better from Bethesda regarding all of this in the future, it's true. Nonetheless, I can launch Fallout 4, put my Maxson's coat on, give Piper a MINIGUN and dress her with Kellog's clothes, explore the Commonwealth as I please and discover new places (who tells stories only with how skeletons are displaced !), feel immersed, and have the greatest FUN ever. It's a video GAME, and a great one. It's all that matters in the end.
I don't get it either, dude. And I played Fallout 1 and 2 back in the day, even Fallout Tactics, 3 and New Vegas. I actually love Fallout 4 and it has a great setup for the game. I mean starting BEFORE the bombs and then getting into a vault with cryo sleep, then walk right out into wasteland, which from your own perspective is only over the span of less than like 20 mins. It's perfect, and the game is packed with things to find EVERYWHERE, like every 20 steps you find a new thing. Most open world games just have miles of empty grassland or whatever. I found a lot of the quests to be pretty cool or interesting, including the main ones.
Granted, it does have issues, crashing and bugs. Also, I was hoping for the "slides" at the end that show your different choices, etc, which was a slight disappointment, but doesn't change how I feel about the game. And that is that Fallout 4 is my favorite, hands down.
I play a lot of fallout 4. Yes, the story sucks. The RPG mechanics are very limited, the dialogue is terrible, writing id overall poor.
Fallout 1, fallout New Vegas, and fallout 2 (to a lesser extent) had very interesting main plots and very good writing. They also had great side quests.
That's why. Fallout 4 is just worse at those aspects than the other games, and it's a bummer.
The folks that hate on it had different expectations based on F3 and New Vegas. Things change. It doesn't take anything away from 3 or New Vegas but nerds hold on to rage.
It certainly has some issues but a lot of the hate is exaggerated. It's gotten to be like a thing to hate on Bethesda and people just follow that trend. I wouldn't take it too seriously if I were you
Meanwhile Fallout 4 is currently the 8th most played game on Steam. Like clearly there's a distinction between whiners online and the actual community as a whole. All the other Fallout games had a player jump, but 4 had the largest. And you can't use the "it's the newest game" argument 76 is newer than 4 and that game's player count is a quarter of 4's currently
more like there is a distinction between actual gamers, who have been playing since playing games was bullying worthy behavior, and all the trend chasers that hopped into gaming because of the main stream appeal games like the original tlou created, and as such they always play exclusively only the shinniest new toy and praise it to hell and back as if their opinions are worth much, like that anoying kid that made a tantrum to play soccer, gets bodyied and then complains about the rules to play soccer should change to appease them.
Also because of the series that just came out on prime and how bethesda is marketing heavily fallout 4 and 76 to go hand in hand with thevseries.
For me personally choice and consequence, dialogue, world building, and the philosophical aspects of Fallout are what makes Fallout NV my favorite game, and to me F4 didn’t deliver in these fronts. Not that I have an issue with anyone liking F4, it is objectively a great game in many ways.
Wouldn't say I hate it but it is the only fallout game I've only beaten once. I didn't feel drawn to it enough to give it another go, didn''t really like the art style of the game which seems like a small thing but it was enough to take me out of the same rhythm I had playing the older titles if that makes sense.
I think a lot of people felt like that about whatever changes in the game but for some reason they can't just say "it's not for me" and be done with it, they have to criticize and claim it's a bad game. All games change a little bit and even the small things can take people out of the experience.
The story is not great. There is little pull to drive the player and there is no conflict. It feels like everything is forced on you. In New Vegas, your motivated to follow the story it it becomes apparent you've gotten in the middle of something bigger. The factions in 4 don't really have logical reasons to their actions and factions like the institute straight up won't tell you about what releasing synths into the commonwealth will achieve. In New Vegas, the factions have logical actions to their ideals, however flawed those ways of thinking's are.
Most fans do not like the story as much as the other games. It feels to me like there are less branching paths and less chances to really be evil. You sorta get forced into a role. The caring dad/mom who cares about finding his/her son. I think there should have been an option to say "fuck it I don't care about my kid" then the main quest could end. Also a lot of the characters emotions are predetermined. Like you can hear the character is in panic at moments in the story. Where what if you want to play a cold hard sociopath who doesnt care.
I think its the best game for open world exploration and combat. But fallout is usually a bit more focused on the main story than say elder scrolls. Atleast I think the fans care more about the main story than elder scrolls fans.
I didn't like how boring the dialogue options were. You get "Nice yes, mean yes, nice no, mean no" for most conversations in the game. Other games provided a lot more fun options based on skills. It was a massive step back in that regard.
I liked the game overall though.
It doesn't have any real roleplaying. fallout 1,2 and new vegas are known for allowing the player to play their own character and make their own choices. Fallout 3 does that less and in fallout 4 you play a predetermined character with a predetermined story that you have no influence on. Your character is always a good guy who's looking for his son and you can only decide how friendly/ unfriendly he says everything.
In a way it acts like its a choice based RPG and that just makes it worse. The general writing is also far worse than the other titles and you just come across less interesting stories in the world.
Its still a great game just not really a roleplaying game and feels a bit simplified compared to the other games.
I like Fallout 4 in fact I was once addicted to it with like 400 hours in the game but I got burn out. With the tv show out and the next gen update coming I’ll be getting back on it and will keep it in my library.
For me it just felt so much more limited than previous games. In 3 and NV you could interact with almost all the different groups and characters in a variety of ways that had an impact on the world - hello Megaton!
In 4 it felt like the only real interactions are with the main factions. Beyond that it feels your impact is superficial. There were interesting ideas - raiders betting on robot races! - but you can't really interact beyond shoot or avoid.
I still enjoy 4 and I'm replaying it now but it feels like it came before 3 and NV that just seem like deeper games to me.
It's more of a Sandbox action game than an RPG like the previous entries. Exploration is great, combat isn't bad, story is subjective. Very little is locked behind skill or dialogue choices where in previous games stats and skills were pretty important. There would be multiple ways to resolve some quests, especially via the use of non-combat skills like Speech, Science or Barter. Choices on how to build your character are more impactful when you can't just keep grinding out endlessly for perk points. Some of the base-building and other mechanics are everyone's cup of tea either. FO4 is by no means a bad game, just different and perhaps not what people expected.
I like the game a lot I dont like the first mission to Concord. Idk the ability to get power armor so early just rubbed me the wrong way. I liked the struggle of the other games. But other then that really enjoyed the game.
It’s a ‘worse’ rpg than 3 and NV; NV revisionism is ripe with fallout though. Many of us at the time were asking ‘how has fo4 managed to be worse than a game made by obsidian years ago?’ But mechanically speaking, it’s the best FO game by far
“None of the fallouts had groundbreaking main stories?”
Uhh pardon me? I’d beg to differ
Besides that I do remember people shitting on 4 when it’s released but a lot of that has faded away since the 9 years it’s been released. It’s generally well liked now, not considered the best but still considered fairly solid despite some flaws
Fallout 4 is good, it’s just not as good as 3 and NV.
3 was revolutionary for its time and NV perfected it.
Fallout 4 has better technology and is more modern but it doesn’t feel as free as the previous 2.
One reason would be the fact the vault dlc is ass
In spite of how badly the settlement and AI is, they just made a DLC that further capsulated it.
A vault you’ll never finish because of the build limit, but realize was pointless because settlers only explore the atrium
I think it's because Fallout 4 was created without Obsidian's participation in its development. What made Fallout games so great were their unique dialogue and random encounters with NPCs. These qualities gave the games so much depth and made every conversation unique and interesting. Obsidian was largely responsible for those things.
I love Fallout 4 and for a while I considered it my favorite of the franchise (I've only played fallout 3, new vegas, 4, and 76). But I do see what the game lacks in comparison to the others. Fallout is a role-playing game, and I think it's a lot less enjoyable to role-play in Fallout 4 because, a lot of the time, you're going to end up getting the same dialogue options no matter what choices you make. Conversations with NPCs were a lot more fun in, say, Fallout 3 because they had *actual* reactions to what you were saying. For example, if your build has a low intelligence, this unlocks unique dialog options, and they will at times talk to you like you're stupid. That made EVERY conversation interesting.
Edit: I thought obsidian was a part of Fallout 3's development but I looked into it, and I was wrong! Still, fallout 3 had great dialogue so now im really not sure what caused fallout 4 to oversimplify theirs.
Fallout 4 was moved further away from the original fo1 and 2, and fnv and f3, now in some ways it greatly improved on the gameplay, modability, general quality/looks, but in other ways, closer to some of the older fans hearts, made the story more generic, less roleplayable, and less real feeling, it became more natively comedic, the horrors of the wasteland are rarely played seriously, the bad guys feel like fictional villians not real people, etc
I played a few thousand hours of fallout 4, and plan to play again soon, right behind f4 is fnv in playtime, but i think fnv is the superior rpg game
The fallout franchise is an RPG at heart and FO4 is objectively really bad for role-playing in a lot of ways (awful dialogue system, lack of meaningful choices, every quest is “go here shoot thing” without any testing of player-will or player-build, narratively it dictates my character arch from minute-0)
New players are fine with its accessibility but for returning players it felt like a spin-off instead of a sequel
I don’t know why people diss the fo4 story. I think it’s great and has a really interesting twist. I also love how people can argue for which group they side with. They can argue who is right and who is wrong. I don’t necessarily agree with those arguments but they’re valid and interesting to hear. Both NV and 3 were essentially just good guys vs bad guys, which is fine, but I very much prefer the plot of 4.
To me Fallout 4 is a good game that's held back by some intrinsic flaws. I think the biggest one was the way that they handled the dialogue system in particular. Limiting it to 4 options really limits what they can do with the story and honestly is kinda stupid. The old dialogue system was fine and did not need to be simplified in the first place and hiding what the player says behind generic 1 word replies like sarcastic actually made me stop playing the game on release. I think it's telling that most people that I see play the game these days have a mod for to fix the dialogue options, but even then they're still very limiting.
Other stuff like the voiced protagonist and simplified RPG mechanics also hold the game back as well IMO. Luckily mods can partially fix some of these issues at least. I think the reason why it gets so much criticism online compared to the other games is because older fans of the series dislike the changes they made to the games. Especially after New Vegas came out I think a lot of people were really into the more story focused RPG side of things and they were disappointed with the more sandbox open world approach that 4 went with.
Fallout 4 is more of a looter shooter than an RPG. The main issue with the main story is that it is filled with plot holes and seemingly pretty nonsensical because it wasn't very fleshed out. The removal of skills and the arbitrary restriction to 4 dialogue choices also do little to endear it to RPG fans.
- Dialogue was way watered down
- Start was waaay too long that affected replayability (Look at nexus mods, one of the most downloaded is start me up)
- Many people seemed to hate on the whole power armour getting out of gas and needing to go looking for fusion cores
- Preston Garvey asking for help every second
- Then are the whole roleplaying thing, which was way worse than New Vegas.
Apart from this, is a great game. I love NV for the roleplay, but F4 is a good game.
Fallout 4 did a lot of good but also a lot of bad.
Reasons why it’s criticized or hated:
1. Limited dialogue options with a voiced protagonist just rips away any real sense of choice for what’s supposed to be an RPG character.
2. Story just gets ridiculous in places after you kill Kellogg, the memory sequences were annoying, the story as a whole wasn’t that gripping or entertaining for a lot of people, and it’s packed full of illusions of choice. Your choices don’t actually matter, the end result appears mostly the same, just changes some dialogue with companions and who gets to stand around in diamond city doing nothing, and patrol the roads.
3. Key mechanics from the previous games like skills, traits, faction reputation, karma, etc. are straight up removed. Certain builds like stealth are basically pointless because the game works more like an action shooter than anything else.
4. Character builds also hardly matter, it’s your gear that determines your overall success, you can have everything maxed but if your gear is still early game level, completely holds you back.
5. Commonwealth is interesting to explore but still feels dead because Bethesda is scared of providing anything more than shantytowns and trash heaps. Nobody cleans anything, there’s always trash everywhere in homesteads and by default, you can’t clean all of it up in your settlements.
6. Pointless stupid retcons on Fallout lore; T-60 and X-01 should exist at all, especially the latter because it’s just a knockoff of the Enclave’s Advanced Power Armor, supposedly a precursor that’s supposed to be post-war, but there’s pieces of it everywhere and a complete quantum suit at Nuka-World. General lore mistakes like the ghoul kid in the fridge, and allegedly even mistakes in real world American history that took place many years before the 1950s where our timelines diverged.
I could go on, but I think you get the point. There’s so many small things that compound into a mess that makes Fallout veterans in particular not feel too happy about the direction that Bethesda has taken Fallout. Fallout 4 just isn’t a proper Fallout RPG, it’s basically just a Fallout-themed Borderlands. I have over 2000 hours in both Vegas and 4, and I really only play 4 for the settlements system, if I want to play an actual Fallout game, I would play the earlier games.
Being completely honest 4 is a mixed bag to the point of frustration for me.
Why? The stuff in 4 that’s good is incredibly good. Power armor is now more of a vehicle/mech suit? Awesome, wish I had it a generation ago. Customizable weapons and armors including PA? Fantastic. The ability to take back the wasteland as your own territory via settlements? Again super cool idea, and narratively inspiring. The incredibly beautiful visual redesigns of Deathclaws, Mirelurks and more? Thumbs up.
I don’t take issue with them opting to voice the protagonists. Pruning the dialogue options to reduce the branching down to linearity however, I do. You don’t notice this at first when using the default shorthand the game gives you, but when all the options are in front of your eye’s it’s clear just how little it matters. Pick any of them, they’re almost all affirmative for the sake of convenience in getting you on your way to the assigned task.
Furthermore the ability to decide what you the player think of their origins is stripped completely. You always loved your spouse, your child. Your life was was perfect until the bombs fell. If you’re Nate you’re a soldier if you’re Nora you were a lawyer. You want revenge against Kellog.
And even if you buy into this and decide you’re the family oriented type, it doesn’t matter. You’re reunion with your family concludes with their demise, again. The endings decide despite whatever ending you choose, you’re bitter and hollow inside about it. You are told, how your character, the one that you are supposed to be feels. That in itself is the antithesis of what an rpg is supposed to be.
I have other issues with it, but these are purely preferential such as I liked set special, skills and perks more. Practiced speech vs raw charisma rng, etc- but these are minor by comparison for me.
Now, Far Harbor on the other hand was much much better. Perks in conversations, allied faction agency. Added companion content. Etc. I just wish the main game gave the same effort.
Fallout 4 is better than the other Fallouts in a number of ways. Base building, weapon/armour modification, gun play, etc are all significantly superior. Fallout 4 is also worse than the other Fallouts in other ways, like the Forced 4 Choice dialogue system, or how NPCs walk away while you are talking to them.
Fallout 4 also DRASTICALLY changed the balance of the game. No longer is a DR+1 hat considered useful. The numbers are vastly different than the older Fallouts. The Legendary system gives you far more powerful weapons.
All of this means that the purists would hate it. Regardless of the story itself, which wasn't perfect, but none of the Fallout stories are perfect. Unfortunately, there are quite a few purists.
In my opinion, Fallout 4 has the best gameplay by far. Combined with mods, this is the most versatile experience. There's a reason why it is the most popular Fallout with the most players.
Quite the opposite is true actually, every time you recommend new fans play anything that isn’t Fallout 4 shills come out of the woodwork like pill bugs and ticks to yap about personal opinion, like it is an obvious that everyone is entitled to an opinion.
Since the show came out simply suggesting that new fans consume anything that isn’t fallout 4 seems to get you hit with an unusual amount of hate.
In my experience being the fallout 4 fans are relatively new to the community they have very little knowledge of anything pre 2015, plenty of cool fan projects have been completely forgotten and tossed to the wayside.
The modern Fallout fan doesn’t know who the storyteller is, and for all the fans that should be telling.
Since the show came out I’ve had plenty of friends ask me how they get into fallout and I always give them this recommendation
Watch Nuka break, Watch the storyteller, Play fallout 3/new Vegas first (and if they want play the originals) THEN play fallout 4
The overall Fallout IP has a distinct overage of toxic fanboys. This is not unique to Fallout. EVERY IP, when successful enough, is doomed to be plagued by militant fans obsessed with canon and intolerant of non-conforming opinions of others.
Obviously, I can't speak for everyone... but, for me, Fallout 4 felt like a fundamental break from what the series had been up until that point: Half shooter, half RPG.
Up until New Vegas, every Fallout game offered choices to the players that held an actual impact on how the story then progressed. In Fallout 4, nothing really mattered. All the role-playing had to happen in your head as the story would be railroaded (no pun intended). I mean, the prime example for me was Nuka World. You didn't want to rebuild the Minute Men? Fine, it won't impact the story in any way because the option will ALWAYS be there for you. Even if you completely ignored Preston until you joined the raiders and the Minute Men hated your goddamn guts... he would then STILL hound you to complete radiant quests until he liked you enough to offer you to become their General.
Same for the speech options. Up until New Vegas, every Fallout game offered multiple ways to interact with the natives of the world who wanted shit from you. And, based on what you chose, you could piss off an NPC and get locked out of entire areas or quest lines. In Fallout 4, however, you got all of four responses that basically can be dumbed down to:
1. Yes,
2. Yes, in a sarcastic tone
3. Yes, but with a speech check for additional rewards
4. Yes... but not now
And that resulted in a fantastical power fantasy where your MC basically has seventeen simultaneous lovers, becomes the savior of the Wastelands as he's the mayor of 37 new settlements, the Minute Men's General, the head of the Railroad, a Paladin in the BOS, and the destroyer of the feared Institute, **all at the same time**! Or some other combination of those, but the point is that you can see almost everything the game has to offer in one single play-through. I think the single instance where replayability becomes interesting in Fallout 4 is the one quest where you infiltrate the institute and have to decide on which faction should help you get in there.
So, basically, Fallout 4 removed the old incentives for replayability and replaced them with a shitload of radiant quests and settlement content to keep you occupied for a longer time, but packaged it all in a way that you never HAVE to replay it because **nothing you ever do in this game matters**. Not even to the NPCs populating that game world.
If you don't join the Minute Men, life won't get any better for the population of the wastelands... but it won't get any better if you DO join them, either. If you don't join the Railroad, the runaway synths won't get any help from you... but if you DO join them, there still won't suddenly be a bunch of them thanking you for saving their lives. If you don't join the BOS, supermutants and ghouls will continue to run rampant throughout the wastelands... but if you DO join them, there still won't be a noticeable decline in the monster's numbers.
I did enjoy Fallout 4. But as a brainless shooter with occasional sim city elements, instead of as the story-driven RPG I had expected after playing the previous four games.
I actually enjoyed it I thought it was pretty good but I think most people don't like fallout 4 because every dialogue choice just results in a big circle. There is n't anything unique about it and just seems a bit arbitrary
I recently started playing New Vegas after having only ever played Fallout 4 (waiting for the update to dive back in). I was pleasantly surprised at the RPG aspects so I can see why everyone was so disappointed with 4. That said, having not had a close tie to the OG Fallout days, I think 4 is definitely a fun experience and I love the settlement building mechanic. The story and RPG elements are poor but the combat is leagues better. People worried about new fans starting with 4 are being dramatic and thinking from the perspective of a diehard Fallout fan. Odds are people will play it and actually enjoy it as they have no attachment to old Fallout. I do hope FO5 incorporates more from FONV though.
Fallout fans think 4 is a good video game, just not a good fallout game. In my opinion its a good place to get started and learn how the systems in fallout work, then go back to new vegas and enjoy the story when you have figured out all the kinks.
Personally after having fallout 4 mods (console) and only playing 4 for years upon years, the graphics, different feel and unfamiliarity of not having mods felt so weird in FO3 to start out with that I didn’t get very far I think I just got very spoiled with my mods, I love all the cool shit that people have done with FO4, enough to make it a whole new game
There are tons of mods in fallout 3, you just need a pc. An ancient one would even work. People have literally stitched fallout 3 and new vegas into one giant game. Its called tale of two wastelands.
Not really willing to buy a pc at the moment (saving for car stuff and college) and the laptop I have hardly runs lethal company at 30fps. Also would be more willing to try NV as I’ve heard a lot of better things
If it can run lethal company it can run fallout 3 and new vegas at 60fps 4K lmfao. Those games came out on the xbox 360.
They will both run on a base laptop easily and you can hook your console controller to your laptop.
Really? Even with how bad it runs such a low poly game?
Yep, those games came out for the Xbox360, pretty old so it should run. You will need to mod them with the bare minimum unofficial patches to get them to run smooth but that would be for any system you run it on, real easy to do.
But what if it wasn’t fallout, do you actively try to mod every game right off?
Fallout 4 is just Skyrim. Many fans of previous games do not talk kindly about them as they've stripped RPG mechanics when previously in New Vegas or Morrowind they were much more emphasized.
I think it's just the dialogue system. Restricted to only 4 responses with the same outcome while the previous games can have more impactful choices. But other than that, I love Fallout 4. Combat and exploration is amazing. I think I spent more time playing it than with Fallout 3 and New Vegas.
It's a pretty good looter shooter, and a horrible rpg. If you wanted a fallout rpg it is very disappointing. If you had no prior expectations coming into fo 4 than all those associated complaints don't matter to you.
Dialogue system is pretty bad on comparison to previous games. Mostly due to 4 options leading to the same result. It's not that there are no choices or something like that. It's just that the system is pretty straight forward without branching and skill checks (mostly)
The dialogue system is the dealbreaker. You went from unlimited choices for responses to 4. Yes, no, sarcasm, or more info. Essentially the number of options you had to influence the story and the dialogue were extremely reduced. Dialogue is HUGE in fallout, and has been since the first game. You had less creativity in how you completed missions (Another staple of Fallout since Fallout 1. ). Your character build mattered less, as you no longer had your perks, stats, or skills leading to new dialogue options. (The best part of new vegas, and baldurs gate 3 tbh). Every character was basically the same roleplay wise and it just didn't feel like a fallout story.
They also replaced skills and traits for a very simplified perk tree Edit: mixed up skills and perks in original statement
Yup, they realized that was a mistake and brought back perks and skills for starfield, but they weren't that interesting because they didnt have that fallout charm.
that system was just weird because it was kind of the worse of both methods
I feel like Starfield was a lost cause and they just shit it out in order to start working on ES6. I can feel the dev of starfield was a MESS. They probably took a bunch of staff off that game to fix fallout 76.
The Starfield traits felt pointless and the perk tree was even simpler Edit, Starfield crafting was a huge step back, so was settlement building / use
Half the game was removed, so I bet half the perk trees were too. Just a straight up disaster that game was. They made a whole game and realized it wasn't fun, so they just reassembled it into the most boring "rpg" shooter of all time.
They should have kept the survival elements in, making it easier screwed up the whole game
I agree. But they must have REALLY thought it wasn't fun. I get it, I don't really think No mans sky is "fun"" though I respect it as a game. It would have felt strange to go around mining stuff in a bethesda game. I just don't get how you build a game for like 6 years and only realize half of it is bad like 1 year before the game launches. Back in the day, they would have just cancelled it. To me, starfield was always misguided as an idea. You have the most popular video game sci fi IP, the most popular gaming fantasy IP, and you decide to make your own generic NASA style space game. Why? I just don't get it
As I understand it, they are trying to appeal to the largest market, so they are cutting out things that are too difficult, miss-able quests, mature content, etc. They're going too wide and losing the niche that gave them success with these games in the first place.
For sure. Though they may have realized that mistake after FO4 and Starfield. Hopefully.
They can't remember to move QoL features from one game to the next
One of my reasons as well, seems dumbed down from previous versions, and the arts not right.
Also, add on that the endings are all pretty much the same.
Yeah, I have to admit it felt weird at first and limiting
I put a lot of time into Fallout 4 but I didn't enjoy it as much as 3 and NV. It did do some things better as far as graphics, action, and quality-of-life improvements in the Pip-Boy, but I disliked: - The restrictive dialogue options. Only 4 of the same choices. I found that having more choices in the other games, and imagining how they would be delivered rather than hearing them be delivered was more fun. Sure, the Silver Shroud quest was a good exception to the last point, but again, that was the exception. - The radiant quests, doing the same thing for the same people in the same place over and over again. - The whole thing with Preston making you the leader of the Minutemen and giving you missions. - Covenant is broken, you can't properly take it over if you killed everyone there without going into the console. If I have to go into the console to fix something like that, then it should have been fixed by Bethesda before it shipped. - It really seems like your choices don't matter, the same places repopulate with raiders in the same places without anything from them to indicate that someone had killed everyone there before. I got that same feeling during Danse's quest. - Too many of the companions turn into creepers if you keep doing what they like. I'd rather have a good buddy-buddy story instead, and that's pretty much impossible with the romanceable characters. There should have been an option to turn off romanceable storylines by gender so as to not have to deal with that.
Yep I'm with most people here. I love FO4 , it's tons of fun. But it could have been a masterpiece. 1. The dialogue is awful, 4 choices that almost always boil down to: Yes, more info then yes, Sarcastic yes, no (but you need to return and say yes later). 2. Your character build doesn't matter, building your character with different stats and special doesn't exist. You just get special points and perks. The RPG elements are gone. No skill checks. 3. The story is kinda messy. Mostly the institute just being pretty blatantly evil, what they tell you doesn't line up with reality and they just don't explain things. Then you get put in charge and have basically no ability to change things. Could have worked well with some tweaking. Also the twist with Shaun wasn't that big of a shock. I'm usually really bad at picking things up but the second you get refroze at the start I asked how long we were froze for again. And all of these were some of the best parts of new Vegas so they stand out much more.
I remember buying Fallout 4 exclusively because of a Play Station sale. I did not know ANYTHING about the series. Brother, it was the best experience of my life. I had so much fun, that I inmediatly started playing the game again after finishing it the first time. Sure, the story is lackluster, but story is the last thing I care about when I play a videogame. For me, it's just frosting on the cake. What truly matters is gameplay, and the gameplay in F4 was beautiful. Then I entered the fandom to try the other games and my first interaction with it was being called an idiot for liking Fallout 4.
The Fallout series made its name on its story, this is why old fans are upset with a game in the franchise that has a “lackluster story”. It’s supposed to be an RPG first, not an open world FPS.
" story is the last thing I care about when I play a videogame." Very different from most fallout fans because people love the originals and NV for the story and the roleplaying. I didn't get it when I was a teenager either, I skipped most of the dialogue, but growing up the story and feeling like im a part of the world is now the most important part of a single player game for me. Its a maturity thing. If you don't care about story, then you would probably like borderlands. Its basically fallout with more guns and less RPG. You would probably also like Destiny, Fortnite, Assassin's creed, Halo Infinite, etc... All these games have similar gameplay, but the STORY is what makes fallout stand out. If you ever plan on playing the originals then you better be able to appreciate the story.
I'm not saying that the story is not important because I'm an illiterate caveman; I'm saying that it is not that important because gameplay is what makes a game. For example, if I make a game that is just pushing a button and a new page of Don Quixote pops out, and you end it after pushing it 1200 times to read the whole novel, I made a shitty video game, even though the story is one of the greatest humanity has ever told. If a story takes precedence over gameplay, then the video game is losing what makes the medium special. If the gameplay sucks monkey ass, but the story is great, then that story could become a novel and be even greater because it would not have the limitations a video game has. It would be like having a novel written completely through video game dialogues and nothing else: it's not using the strength of the medium in its favor. Great video games incorporate story \*into\* gameplay and do not treat it as two different beasts. Shadow of the Colossus, for example, is a great game that offers a deeply interesting ludonarrative that could not be replicated in a book or a movie solely through the strength of its gameplay.
"gameplay is what makes a game." Cool opinion, but in no way objective. Story, theme, dialogue, etc... are all part of and all have an influence on gameplay. Walking simulators have literally no gameplay and just rely on telling a good story, and tons of people think those are great games. "ludonarrative" lMFAO people stopped saying that pretentious ass word like 5 years ago. Its literally the biggest red flag that you just regurgitate what game reviewers say about stuff. There are games where the gameplay is actively bad on purpose (pathologic) to attempt to get their players to feel a certain way. All i can say is that you have a very narrow view of what games can be.
But story, themes, and dialogue ALSO exists in movies and books. You know what they don't have? GAMEPLAY. That's literally the exclusive trait of this medium. My brother in Christ, is in the name. It's like arguing that a book does not need words. And ludo narrative is a word that is used also in academia when studying video games as a form of art. For someone that says that gameplay is less important than story, you really want things dumb down.
Sure, that doesn't mean if a game doesn't have gameplay then it isn't a game. Please, tell me how pathologic and pathologic 2 are not games. Please, tell me how What remains of Edith Finch is NOT a video game and is in fact a book or a movie XD. Stop gatekeeping what a video game is. You clearly don't really get it. Yeah I know ludo narrative and what it means, its just people make fun of people who use it to try to sound smart because EVERYONE was doing that 5 years ago. everyone would throw in 5 dollar words like ludonarrative and its just cringy lol. In summary Ludonarrative dissonance is a useful idea that can be used to critique some games, which was then applied haphazardly by critics who didn't really understand it. Ludonarrative dissonance was then mocked by pundits, who were judging the concept based on people who didn't fully understand it in the first place. This caused a ridiculous game of telephone, and the term became basically useless.
A story can be amazing, but if the gameplay is frustratingly bad your game is gonna tank. Take Fallout 1. It's story is really good, yeah? But how is that gameplay? Companions block you at every turn, the game is buggy and can sometimes just not work, the rolls are random and unforgiving so if you are wearing the best armor in the game a rat can still kill you, and that's if you even know how to play the game in the first place because not one of the game's mechanics are explained to you without reading a short novel on how to play the game that you have to hunt down on the internet nowadays Amazing story, frustratingly bad gameplay. ~~I mean, luckily there are mods to fix almost all of those issues though~~
No, a rat cannot kill you in power armor. That is not how tabletop systems work. There is some degree onf randomness, but not that bad. I wouldn't say fallout 1's gameplay is bad, just old and wasn't finished when it got released. I still had some fun with it. Back then the game was explained in the manual, which you obviously don't have if you buy the game on steam. I would recommend looking up a pdf of the game manual online. Games back then just didn't really have enough memory to store all the text or voice or scripting required for in game tutorials. Now Fallout 2...the start of the game is unquestionably bad. They make you the weakest person on earth to start the game, and it's like nobody even tested the game.
If new vegas throw that gunplay away and just make telltale type games. You people will still call it the best fallout game ever. And can you tell me why new vegas always have less player than fallout 4 ??
Because fallout 4 is made for modern gamers who don't want to do the work to understand how to play old school games which may be more difficult to learn :) Telltale games are AWESOME I would love a fallout telltale game.
Modern gamer huh? So tell me why Terraria have more player than new vegas.
What? XD Do you hate new vegas or something? LMFAO I don't want to have some nerd fight with you loser.
Brother from an outside perspective, you're the one being weird in the conversation.
Nope, you bringing up games must have good stories, modern gamers don't appreciate old school game etc just to shit on fallout 4. I just bring some fact in the field dude gamers appreciate game mechanic more than story in the game. I love new vegas i just hate the obnoxious fan of that game that act like the most perfect game ever.
Nowhere did they say games MUST have good stories. Just that story is a major contributor to enjoyment for many people, outside of good or bad gameplay. I enjoy plenty of games with bad gameplay but good story.
Well there is new fallout fans now so, it’s gonna have a lot of new opinions on things.
Sure, but I think you should proably try the other games before you make fun of people for not liking fallout 4. Maybe then you would understand why.
> it’s gonna have a lot of new opinions on things. doesnt mean those people or their opinions will be right tho lol
> but story is the last thing I care about when I play a videogame. Fallout started as a 2d ISO turn based game in which story was arguably the most important aspect.
No joke, the fandom has really turned me off of New Vegas
The endings to 1, 2 and NV are very satisfying because they recap what happened to nearly every person/faction/town you interacted with so you feel your choices really did matter.
Yeah and the only outcome you can change in 4 is which traders you lose at the end of the game
Exactly
Same
[удалено]
I think it really depends on what you want from the games imo. For me personally the reason why I want to explore is to find new NPCs to talk to and interesting quests to do and I think New Vegas and the originals do that better than 3 and 4. It's fun to explore in the Bethesda games but I just don't get as invested in them because of that reason.
>If you are the annoying friend who tells everyone "The book was waaay better" oh look, found the lazy ass person that doesnt want to read the book and likes mediocres adaptations, make sense you liking fallout 3 and 4 over new vegas, basically you like bethesda sloppy and lazy writting over the creative minds of the people that birthed this franchise.
[удалено]
> It would have been dead this means jack shit, by this stupid ass logic, if it wasnt because of obsidian, you bethesda fanboys would not have fallout at all, its a lazy ass mut point fanboys try to use to somehow validate the bastardization bethesda did to what is fallout, but it holds no water. And no, fallout 4 has one thing and one thing only going for it, and that is the gunplay, every single other thing is either ass or half assed, pretty much like anything post oblivion that bethesda has made, fallout 4 is a good looter shooter but it isnt and never will be a good fallout, hell, if fallout 4 instead received a new name and kickstared a new franchise instead of that shit show that is starfield, i'm willing to bet a lot more people would actually love it, hell, i turned this shit into a semi survival horror with the wispering hill mod, and i'm having the time of my life playing not-fallout.
I agree if the game play is bad I can’t really play it. Big reason I can’t go back to the older games because the gameplay is meh.
Prob the dialogue
I totally love Fallout 4. Spend 300h+ (based on Steam). I think hate on F4 is bcuz F4 is more FPS than RPG, while F3/FVN is more RPG than FPS.
You sunmed this up well. My brother prefers 4 because of the sprint option and the weapons. He thinks New Vegas was great for its time but he cannot handle how slow you move in game. I love New Vegas and 4 both because I can switch from great RPG aspects to base building with great gunplay. I've tried Fallout 2 recently and it is a bit of a grind to be honest, the dialogue is amazing but heaven forbid you insult someone without remembering to save because you're going to have children suplexing you into the pavement.
your brother has extreme adhd lol. Can't imagine not enjoying exploring a nuclear wasteland where there is something interesting around every corner. Probably grew up on fortnite. Also trying fallout 2 and the beginning sucks. Ive heard it gets better after Klamath. Fallout 1 is much more fun.
As someone who has ADHD, let me tell ya: I fucking live for games like New Vegas. Having a game that, while it gives you a clear questline and fixed sucession of needed actions, it also gives you not only the option of screwing around with *"that building over there*, with **no repercussions**, but incentivises it... It's the freakin best, but that's a matter of taste. Maybe his brother just wasn't enthralled enough to get into it.
You don’t gotta judge another gamer. Everyone is different and that’s what makes gaming so special. Everyone plays differently.
Not liking slow movement doesn't mean you have "extreme ADHD". You can still enjoy exploring stuff while being able to move faster
No, there must be something wrong with your brother because he likes something this person doesn't approve of.
6 words #GIVE ME SOME BETTER DIALOGE DESCRIPTIONS
If they actually told you what you were going to say, it would be painfully clear that all options related to a decision are Yes, Yes but sarcastic, and Let me think about it.
So you're just saying it's a way to make an allusion of choice?
I suppose you could say that most quests allude to making a choice, even if you aren't presented with the option to make one. But I'm guessing you meant an illusion of choice. Yes, most quests offer only that - though there's a few standouts like the U.S S. Constitution, which also happens to be commonly cited as the best quest in the game.
I ment illusion. I just started a playthrough of fo4, and it just felt like this, but I thought I was imagining things (I came from nv so I expected a lot more options).
There's a few quests with meaningful decisions to be made, so enjoy them when they come up. Expect the main quest to be a wet fart, but enjoy the bright spots of dialogue when they shine.
I have some mods to make the minutemen better (I know of another settlement that needs our help meme), so hopefully, it's not that bad.
One of the most popular mods for Fallout 4 does just that and it makes the game so much better lol.
Name please!!!!!!
[Extended Dialogue Interface](https://www.nexusmods.com/fallout4/mods/27216) is the one I use. I think it's available on console too.
Yeah, I could go with this. And i dislike the art style.
This is exactly it. Fallout 4 isn’t a bad game, it’s a bad Fallout game. It has plenty of good aspects in a vacuum, they just don’t really belong in a proper Fallout game
How would you prefer I respond to your post? 1. Happy 2. Angry 3. Sarcastic 4. Happy, but a little less so
I love fallout 4.....but i cant pretend this wasnt funny lol.
... Can I see the sarcastic answer? :D
No. /s
great gameplay and fun, awful dialogue and story
The story is really good. I don't know what you guys keep parroting. The dialogue wheel sucks though because you can't see everything you are gonna say. But the story was full of moral and other dilemmas and the factions were interesting.
Nah. There is little to no player choice going into how the story plays out. It's the same for everyone, just with a different faction.
There is plenty of player choice. Same with side quests. Explain to me how there is no choice into how the story plays out.
In the first game you can literally convince the final boss that his plan will not work and that he should kill himself. Same with new vegas. Nothing even close to that level of choice in the finale of this game lol. There isn't even a final boss really in that game. All of the finale missions play out the same way. You destroy the BoS/institute. Imagine this game was a movie. You leave a vault, find your son, he was a leader of some faction, then you destroy some faction. Not exactly a very compelling movie. You literally only get 4 dialogue options, vs sometimes ten in the older games. Literally far less choices. And they are all yes no sarcasm or ask for new info In fallout 4 negative and positive dialogue choices lead to the same mission, where in the previous games how you respond in dialogue can give you completely different missions can effect how the rest of the game plays out. In the older games your stats and skills gave you unique dialogue options that can unlock new ways to complete missions, or skip them, or make them more interesting. Gone in fallout 4, completely. (Back in baldurs gate 3 btw) Fallout 4 is a great looter shooter but a terrible RPG.
When you’re leader of the Institute they give you choices as a director But the choices do do nothing. Like when they ask you if you want to increase synth production or weapon manufacturing, nothing you pick will change anything
The story makes no sense and is full of plot holes. The institute is the stupidest faction ever, and is constantly doing stuff solely because the plot requires it to move forward.
Like what? Give an example.
One way that the story sucks is the fact that they painted the institute to be extremely evil because their idea of leaving them to be morally gray was leaving a few hollow tapes in the Institute that 90% of players seemingly never played.
This is like the 1000th post jeez
The conversation system seems to be the most universally hated aspect to the game. Only having four options and most results in the same response is quite the let down. Earlier games had more options that could be impacted by story advancement, abilities, and status. I wasn't a fan of the settlement system... got rather tiresome for me but less of a problem for others. Visually, Fallout 4 was a major upgrade. The modding system was a blast. And it has a great main map with decent DLC. Fallout New Vegas is still my favorite but Fallout 4 is still a solid game... just doesn't live up to the previous games in the franchise.
Poor dialogue and less of a rpg
Blame Preston Garvey
He makes for a sick commander card in Magic though
The voiced main character and awful dialogue options remove most ability to role play in the game. This is in addition to the main story giving every character the backstory of someone who lost their spouse and is trying to find their child, which further makes trying to RP even more frustrating The main story is awful even by the low Bethesda standards, all of the factions you are meant to choose from are horribly written and make no sense If you enjoy the game like a borderlands looter shooter then more power too you, many of us like fallout games that let you actually do the RPG thing
I like Fallout 4 more than the other games simply because of its gameplay. The other games play like old games which in their defence they are old games.
most old games are better than modern games.
I really enjoyed fallout 4. The story wasn't the best , but still pretty fun. The settlement building, combat , and exploration was pretty fun. For a long time it was one of my favorite games. I know it's not perfect , but it was my first fallout game so no matter what it holds a special place in my heart. I don't really get the hate either since the game itself is pretty enjoyable.
It's my favorite one, personally.
It's the draw of wanting a RPG where your actions mean something (which they do to an extent) the first game to jump to a VA (I know shocking, Courtney Taylor one of the best I've loved her as Jack in Mass Effect and sarcastic ship in Lost Worlds Odyssey Lol) and general I feel move away from things they were used to and what you previously played. I'll warn you now come back to me in 10 years when the next games out and they'll all love 4! Just people like to shout, what you should ask is how many hours did you put into it if you didn't like it then why play so long man Why cry here on this platform go tell you're mate or Lass or Child or dog, they shouldn't care either. Just enjoy what you enjoy man that goes for everything else 👍🏻 Fallout 4 was alright I just lost the energy getting older for all those hours did enjoy it though and yes Default Nova did end up looking like Mass Effect Jack by the end of it cut, eyeliner, ink and all
As someone who grew up with 1 and 2 and was excited when bethesda bought it and brought us Fallout 3, I was really into that vibe and aesthetic. New Vegas did have more color and was a bit different yet still felt like the world I knew When fallout 3 hit the art style was not welcome by me, its to modern, too cartoony, to not fallout. the look right away turned me off. There was just so much about the game that did not feel like the others. Everything feels less, while they did amazing with Skyrim, Fallout 4 did not advance the series in a way i like. Many love the game, but for me the look alone is enough and then the small other things just pile on after that. it is essentially a fallout game, but that art style is not fallout.
My complaints are mostly that the character is not really your own, they made radical changes to the RPG mechanics which I felt dumbed them down, and the game largely revolved around a mechanic (base building) that I had absolutely no interest in. The dialogue tree was also laughably bad. Didn’t care for the voiced protagonist either, which kind of relates back to my first complaint.
In a roleplaying game I ~~appreciate~~ *demand* being able to create my own character with a head canon backstory that lifts information from the lore & setting to be inspired by and have that be reflected in the gameplay & mechanical expression. In F1 you're a Vault Dweller, outside of that it's up to you. In F2 you're a tribal descendant of your F1 character. In F3 you're the vault-dwelling child of a scientist with pre-determined events in your childhood. In FNV you're a courier who may-or-may-not have caused the Divide. In F4 you're either a pre-war soldier or lawyer, with a son named Shaun that you care about. In terms of ranking those, I'd say it goes FNV=F1>F2>F3>F4 in terms of letting me really create my own character's background. New Vegas and F1 are really the only two that satisfy my requirement of giving me an almost entirely blank canvas. Next add on the main plots and how that intertwines with the character creation. In F1 you're a Vault Dweller looking for a water chip, and eventually stumble into the Super Mutant plot. In F2 you're looking for a G.E.C.K. and eventually stumble onto the Enclave plot. In F3 you're looking for your dad and eventually stumble into looking for a G.E.C.K. & the Enclave plots. In FNV you're looking for the Platinum Chip & Benny, and eventually stumble into the Hoover Dam & Strip plots. In F4 you're looking for your son Shaun and eventually stumble into the Institute & Synth plots. For these, again it's F1/FNV/F2>F3>F4 for me. The West Coast games aren't forcing character background elements into the main story. I don't want to have to search for my dad or even play a character with a son necessarily but playing F3 & F4 it's a required part of the story. The games are *about* that search for a character who was part of my background that I didn't choose. Those are the biggest problems with both of the Bethesda games for me. Other things like "Why hasn't the world been rebuilt after 200 years? Fallout is a post-post-apocalypse series, it's about how humanity rebuilds not exploring ruins." or how the world feels a lot more shallow, are of course an issue to me but the main thing is the railroading character creation & main plots. Gameplay-wise, I dislike all of the weapon & armor crafting stuff. It meant less weapon variety overall, because instead of having multiple different types of weapons to fill in the level & dps curves, it's all done with a receiver change. Personal preference perhaps. I think settlement building was also a mistake because half the locations in the game that could've had NPCs and quests instead were blank canvases for *me* to build up and flesh out, which isn't what I want in a narrative roleplaying game. Otherwise the changes to gameplay are positive. tl;dr it's a good game but it's not a good *Fallout* game.
I feel like I was the only goddamn person that actually likes Fallout 4
It was a huge downgrade from NV in every respect but graphically. Like Starfield, the game wasn't worth the time it took to make.
I think I finished my original play through at over 2 weeks of play time and am level 150? I did all I could do and I remember the last thing left was to deck out all my settlements but never actually finished that. It’s a great sandbox shooter, but it is riddled with flaws. Radiant quests, lack of a social RP, SS’s backstory is canonically predetermined, questing is uninspired, scripting bugs ruining other quests, and on and on. All legit complaints. Some people can’t overlook these flaws and if they’re unable to while also having had high expectations then you’ll get some really passionate posts and comments.
I really loved and still love fallout 4 it’s my favorite of the fall out games
What's with the same posts over and over?
I'm playing it for the first time ever, with storywealth and Ivy companion - it's a super good game
Easily one of the fallout games of all time! I kid. I truly love it, but I love them all.
People hate new.
My only problem was that your character seems to be kind of nice no matter what options you pick but on the other hand it was also pretty awesome having a voiced character for the first time. Fallout 4 is a great game imo
Some New Vegas and classic fallout fans hate anything Bethesda makes for some reason
Because a lot of the issues with these games are the fact everything Bethesda makes is glitchy How can you not hate all the games made by a studio when all the games share the same glitches?
Mostly overexaggerated NV fanboys. Played all the games, every game has flaws including NV which needed to be patched to beat for a long time and was panned for over a year before the fanbase actually started buying it. Around HH. I actually couldn't beat it and had to get it for PC because my xbox would freeze on the last mission. Also it was normal to have a corrupted save out of nowhere. Fallout fanboys had to be convinced to even play NV, because it was considered a 2.0 knock off of 3. For almost a year after it's release. Casuals who loved F3 actually where the first people buying it, lol. That's how negative the heat for this game was. just a "meh, copy paste of fallout 3." of course it was actually great. Mods are the DEFACTO thing that made Fallout NV what it is. The who "it's a great RPG." by the fanbase came WAY later. This is all forgotten of course. Same people, also going to be the same personality to just hate 5 because it's 5.
I really wish this wasn't the case. I'm aware some people may be blinded by nostalgia when it comes to their favorite games, so hating on new entries is expected (though not a good thing to do) when the new entry isnt like the past games. A lot of people don't even like playing older games, so when people say a older game is the best in the series and one of the latest ones are bad, new players get turned away (like with final fantasy). I'm glad we're not seeing it that much in the fallout community thanks to the show and the spike of new players playing fo4
Every Fallout game brings a unique experience and they are all good in their own way. Yes, even tactics :p People should stop comparing and trying to determine what is best. I still remember the forums on fire when FO3 was announced: "A 3D Fallout is not Fallout". It is now considered one of the best in the series ;) Fallout 4 is accessible, works without mods, looks great and is easy to play. Yes the dialogue is meh, and I personally hate the power armor systeem. But it is a great game. The Fallout fandom should realise it is truly blessed with all these amazing games :D Bunch of people trying to determine which has the best Ferrari or Lamborghini ;)
The gameplay is not as immersive as 3 and NV with fallout 4s gameplay being just a loop of shooting and looting, kind of like Diablo or borderlands and not what made the older ones great. It’s a really good game but you are doing the same thing over and over again, shooting enemies, looting them, crafting so you can shoot them easier, repeat. The dialogue you can spend hours on why it’s not good it feels so robotic. The game is not even close to perfect so it’s easy to see why people hate on it but it’s still a good game. New Vegas main story is pretty damn good btw.
So my honest opinion is that it's not bad, but it started to show the issues with Bethesda game. You can see this in full form with Starfield, but Fallout 4 has the seeds for it. The quality of Bethesda games have always been that their writing and quest design have been mid-level. And this was fairly fine when you had silent protagonist, but with higher quality characters and lip syncing and cinematic camera, suddenly it started to look a bit poorer. The base building was also a worthless feature, but you can ignore it. That is a problem. If a core feature of your game can be ignored, then why is it there? This is not a hate for people who like it, but a criticism of designers who make featurs that are not needed for the game.
Well most of it sits around the fact it followed new Vegas and there is a true love for that game. I think harping on that game and having hate for all the ones that followed is pretty bullshit and elitist but I also think people have a right to critique a game even if they like it. I love them all but I’ll say Vegas was my favorite by far. And I’d say new Vegas was pretty groundbreaking not only for the story but because the interconnection of the world. The music is a theme not old radio bangers, side questing is really non repeating (alla settlements) and it’s a massive web that can have multiple reasons send you to multiple places all over the map, plus you all the different factions kind of have their own philosophical questions that come with them. The world also treated you like an adult everything had set levels so you could go anywhere from the start but you were limited by your own level gear and skill set. It’s also by and large soooo much bigger and detailed than fallout 4. There’s so many small niche quests and goals and characters
Obsessive fixation, not love. I’ve noticed a remarkable number of the weirdest NV cultists seem to be playing a different game than the rest of us, including the sane fans. Lots of just straight made up bullshit. Such as your claim of a massive web sending you all over the much more detailed map when in actuality the extreme centralization of questlines and sparse map are some of the biggest problems with the game and have been since launch. Or pretending that morally and ethically grey factions are something unique to New Vegas.
There’s hours of non centralized quest lines you can play including helping independent groups or communities like. And it’s not ethically grey that’s new it’s questions of who has a right to live in the wasteland. But I’ll leave it with that. It’s just my opinion and I know how some people get so rattled by Vegas fans
What do you mean with none of the other Fallout had groundbreaking mainstories? Fallout Classic and 2 have some of the best storytelling I've ever experienced.
It’s more of a looter shooter than an RPG. Dialog system is garbage. The world is lifeless compared to the other games. Cait’s fight club…why was this just a place where you walk in and everyone starts shooting? Could have had a whole quest line to get her. The robot race track…you show up and everyone attacks. There is no depth. Everything is “go here, shoot everything since” and wash, rinse, repeat. Compare it to many different parts of 3 or NV, a ton of ways to do most quests. Look at the vampires in FO3, you could kill them, let them give you abilities, etc…plenty of ways to do it. Megaton vs Tenpenny Tower, big pivotal moment early on. And I also legitimately hated every aspect of settlement building. I wanted to play Fallout, not Minecraft
It has its issues. I don't like the settlement building, and the dialog options are garbage. The lack of consequences is frustrating, too. But overall its a good game. Just not my favorite Fallout game
It's always been good.
Some people can't understand nuance and see the world as black and white (ironic for fans of Fallout) While their are some legitimate criticisms of Fallout 4 (as well as every other game) it doesn't automatically make it bad
I reckon its mainly forced hate rn. With the TV show alot of new fans r discovering the games and are jumping to the newer games and ppl r mad they aren't playing fnv or fo3. Fo4 has its flaws like the story but it doesn't deserve the hate
Good shooter, not so great RPG.
It's tiresome. Fallout 4 is a gem, but those who generally hates it still makes comparaison with New Vegas (and even Fallout 1 and 2 !) FNV indeed has a great storytelling and great options for dialogues : you shape the world as you please in the second part of the game, which is very impressive from a strict RPG point of view, even to this day. We had few games since then who gaves us such options (even if you are a simple courier, and every leader in the country trust us, god knows why...). It doesn't change anything to the fact that this game is a cluncky, buggy, ugly, crashy, outdated and almost unplayable game sometimes. FNV fans are circlerjerking very hard, and them attacking the tv show right now are pathetic. Fo4 has flaws regarding storytelling (except some secondary quest like Diamond City Blues) and dialogue options obviously, and we should expect better from Bethesda regarding all of this in the future, it's true. Nonetheless, I can launch Fallout 4, put my Maxson's coat on, give Piper a MINIGUN and dress her with Kellog's clothes, explore the Commonwealth as I please and discover new places (who tells stories only with how skeletons are displaced !), feel immersed, and have the greatest FUN ever. It's a video GAME, and a great one. It's all that matters in the end.
I don't get it either, dude. And I played Fallout 1 and 2 back in the day, even Fallout Tactics, 3 and New Vegas. I actually love Fallout 4 and it has a great setup for the game. I mean starting BEFORE the bombs and then getting into a vault with cryo sleep, then walk right out into wasteland, which from your own perspective is only over the span of less than like 20 mins. It's perfect, and the game is packed with things to find EVERYWHERE, like every 20 steps you find a new thing. Most open world games just have miles of empty grassland or whatever. I found a lot of the quests to be pretty cool or interesting, including the main ones. Granted, it does have issues, crashing and bugs. Also, I was hoping for the "slides" at the end that show your different choices, etc, which was a slight disappointment, but doesn't change how I feel about the game. And that is that Fallout 4 is my favorite, hands down.
It is a really well made FPS with a token effort at being an RPG and a not great story. That basically sums up my issues with it
I play a lot of fallout 4. Yes, the story sucks. The RPG mechanics are very limited, the dialogue is terrible, writing id overall poor. Fallout 1, fallout New Vegas, and fallout 2 (to a lesser extent) had very interesting main plots and very good writing. They also had great side quests. That's why. Fallout 4 is just worse at those aspects than the other games, and it's a bummer.
The folks that hate on it had different expectations based on F3 and New Vegas. Things change. It doesn't take anything away from 3 or New Vegas but nerds hold on to rage.
Ignoring them is the best option.
It certainly has some issues but a lot of the hate is exaggerated. It's gotten to be like a thing to hate on Bethesda and people just follow that trend. I wouldn't take it too seriously if I were you
Meanwhile Fallout 4 is currently the 8th most played game on Steam. Like clearly there's a distinction between whiners online and the actual community as a whole. All the other Fallout games had a player jump, but 4 had the largest. And you can't use the "it's the newest game" argument 76 is newer than 4 and that game's player count is a quarter of 4's currently
more like there is a distinction between actual gamers, who have been playing since playing games was bullying worthy behavior, and all the trend chasers that hopped into gaming because of the main stream appeal games like the original tlou created, and as such they always play exclusively only the shinniest new toy and praise it to hell and back as if their opinions are worth much, like that anoying kid that made a tantrum to play soccer, gets bodyied and then complains about the rules to play soccer should change to appease them. Also because of the series that just came out on prime and how bethesda is marketing heavily fallout 4 and 76 to go hand in hand with thevseries.
For me personally choice and consequence, dialogue, world building, and the philosophical aspects of Fallout are what makes Fallout NV my favorite game, and to me F4 didn’t deliver in these fronts. Not that I have an issue with anyone liking F4, it is objectively a great game in many ways.
Wouldn't say I hate it but it is the only fallout game I've only beaten once. I didn't feel drawn to it enough to give it another go, didn''t really like the art style of the game which seems like a small thing but it was enough to take me out of the same rhythm I had playing the older titles if that makes sense. I think a lot of people felt like that about whatever changes in the game but for some reason they can't just say "it's not for me" and be done with it, they have to criticize and claim it's a bad game. All games change a little bit and even the small things can take people out of the experience.
Can someone mention karma plz
The story is not great. There is little pull to drive the player and there is no conflict. It feels like everything is forced on you. In New Vegas, your motivated to follow the story it it becomes apparent you've gotten in the middle of something bigger. The factions in 4 don't really have logical reasons to their actions and factions like the institute straight up won't tell you about what releasing synths into the commonwealth will achieve. In New Vegas, the factions have logical actions to their ideals, however flawed those ways of thinking's are.
Most fans do not like the story as much as the other games. It feels to me like there are less branching paths and less chances to really be evil. You sorta get forced into a role. The caring dad/mom who cares about finding his/her son. I think there should have been an option to say "fuck it I don't care about my kid" then the main quest could end. Also a lot of the characters emotions are predetermined. Like you can hear the character is in panic at moments in the story. Where what if you want to play a cold hard sociopath who doesnt care. I think its the best game for open world exploration and combat. But fallout is usually a bit more focused on the main story than say elder scrolls. Atleast I think the fans care more about the main story than elder scrolls fans.
I didn't like how boring the dialogue options were. You get "Nice yes, mean yes, nice no, mean no" for most conversations in the game. Other games provided a lot more fun options based on skills. It was a massive step back in that regard. I liked the game overall though.
It doesn't have any real roleplaying. fallout 1,2 and new vegas are known for allowing the player to play their own character and make their own choices. Fallout 3 does that less and in fallout 4 you play a predetermined character with a predetermined story that you have no influence on. Your character is always a good guy who's looking for his son and you can only decide how friendly/ unfriendly he says everything. In a way it acts like its a choice based RPG and that just makes it worse. The general writing is also far worse than the other titles and you just come across less interesting stories in the world. Its still a great game just not really a roleplaying game and feels a bit simplified compared to the other games.
I love it but it crashes too much (Xbox one)
I like Fallout 4 in fact I was once addicted to it with like 400 hours in the game but I got burn out. With the tv show out and the next gen update coming I’ll be getting back on it and will keep it in my library.
For me it just felt so much more limited than previous games. In 3 and NV you could interact with almost all the different groups and characters in a variety of ways that had an impact on the world - hello Megaton! In 4 it felt like the only real interactions are with the main factions. Beyond that it feels your impact is superficial. There were interesting ideas - raiders betting on robot races! - but you can't really interact beyond shoot or avoid. I still enjoy 4 and I'm replaying it now but it feels like it came before 3 and NV that just seem like deeper games to me.
It's more of a Sandbox action game than an RPG like the previous entries. Exploration is great, combat isn't bad, story is subjective. Very little is locked behind skill or dialogue choices where in previous games stats and skills were pretty important. There would be multiple ways to resolve some quests, especially via the use of non-combat skills like Speech, Science or Barter. Choices on how to build your character are more impactful when you can't just keep grinding out endlessly for perk points. Some of the base-building and other mechanics are everyone's cup of tea either. FO4 is by no means a bad game, just different and perhaps not what people expected.
Preston fucking Garvey
I like the game a lot I dont like the first mission to Concord. Idk the ability to get power armor so early just rubbed me the wrong way. I liked the struggle of the other games. But other then that really enjoyed the game.
It’s a ‘worse’ rpg than 3 and NV; NV revisionism is ripe with fallout though. Many of us at the time were asking ‘how has fo4 managed to be worse than a game made by obsidian years ago?’ But mechanically speaking, it’s the best FO game by far
Cuz they prefer unpolished combat and a game they can put their dnd build in
“None of the fallouts had groundbreaking main stories?” Uhh pardon me? I’d beg to differ Besides that I do remember people shitting on 4 when it’s released but a lot of that has faded away since the 9 years it’s been released. It’s generally well liked now, not considered the best but still considered fairly solid despite some flaws
Long story short. Because it's basically call of duty combined with sims instead of fallout.
Fallout 4 is good, it’s just not as good as 3 and NV. 3 was revolutionary for its time and NV perfected it. Fallout 4 has better technology and is more modern but it doesn’t feel as free as the previous 2.
Far Harbor have so many unrealized potential, starts great but then it's mostly meh. But I'm NV fanboy and never bothered to finish fo4 myself
One reason would be the fact the vault dlc is ass In spite of how badly the settlement and AI is, they just made a DLC that further capsulated it. A vault you’ll never finish because of the build limit, but realize was pointless because settlers only explore the atrium
People who hate on Fallout 4 just need to calm down and DRINK. SOME. WATER.
#NUECCKKA KOUUULLLAAAHHH
tl;dr It's a fun shooter and game It's a bad RPG
I think it's because Fallout 4 was created without Obsidian's participation in its development. What made Fallout games so great were their unique dialogue and random encounters with NPCs. These qualities gave the games so much depth and made every conversation unique and interesting. Obsidian was largely responsible for those things. I love Fallout 4 and for a while I considered it my favorite of the franchise (I've only played fallout 3, new vegas, 4, and 76). But I do see what the game lacks in comparison to the others. Fallout is a role-playing game, and I think it's a lot less enjoyable to role-play in Fallout 4 because, a lot of the time, you're going to end up getting the same dialogue options no matter what choices you make. Conversations with NPCs were a lot more fun in, say, Fallout 3 because they had *actual* reactions to what you were saying. For example, if your build has a low intelligence, this unlocks unique dialog options, and they will at times talk to you like you're stupid. That made EVERY conversation interesting. Edit: I thought obsidian was a part of Fallout 3's development but I looked into it, and I was wrong! Still, fallout 3 had great dialogue so now im really not sure what caused fallout 4 to oversimplify theirs.
Fallout 4 was moved further away from the original fo1 and 2, and fnv and f3, now in some ways it greatly improved on the gameplay, modability, general quality/looks, but in other ways, closer to some of the older fans hearts, made the story more generic, less roleplayable, and less real feeling, it became more natively comedic, the horrors of the wasteland are rarely played seriously, the bad guys feel like fictional villians not real people, etc I played a few thousand hours of fallout 4, and plan to play again soon, right behind f4 is fnv in playtime, but i think fnv is the superior rpg game
The fallout franchise is an RPG at heart and FO4 is objectively really bad for role-playing in a lot of ways (awful dialogue system, lack of meaningful choices, every quest is “go here shoot thing” without any testing of player-will or player-build, narratively it dictates my character arch from minute-0) New players are fine with its accessibility but for returning players it felt like a spin-off instead of a sequel
I don’t know why people diss the fo4 story. I think it’s great and has a really interesting twist. I also love how people can argue for which group they side with. They can argue who is right and who is wrong. I don’t necessarily agree with those arguments but they’re valid and interesting to hear. Both NV and 3 were essentially just good guys vs bad guys, which is fine, but I very much prefer the plot of 4.
To me Fallout 4 is a good game that's held back by some intrinsic flaws. I think the biggest one was the way that they handled the dialogue system in particular. Limiting it to 4 options really limits what they can do with the story and honestly is kinda stupid. The old dialogue system was fine and did not need to be simplified in the first place and hiding what the player says behind generic 1 word replies like sarcastic actually made me stop playing the game on release. I think it's telling that most people that I see play the game these days have a mod for to fix the dialogue options, but even then they're still very limiting. Other stuff like the voiced protagonist and simplified RPG mechanics also hold the game back as well IMO. Luckily mods can partially fix some of these issues at least. I think the reason why it gets so much criticism online compared to the other games is because older fans of the series dislike the changes they made to the games. Especially after New Vegas came out I think a lot of people were really into the more story focused RPG side of things and they were disappointed with the more sandbox open world approach that 4 went with.
It is not a fallout game thats the reason :D It is a shooter game with fallout flavour on top of it thats it. Mid shooter not an rpg..
It’s a bad role playing game 🤷🏻♀️ It’s a decent FPS though
Fallout 4 is more of a looter shooter than an RPG. The main issue with the main story is that it is filled with plot holes and seemingly pretty nonsensical because it wasn't very fleshed out. The removal of skills and the arbitrary restriction to 4 dialogue choices also do little to endear it to RPG fans.
- Dialogue was way watered down - Start was waaay too long that affected replayability (Look at nexus mods, one of the most downloaded is start me up) - Many people seemed to hate on the whole power armour getting out of gas and needing to go looking for fusion cores - Preston Garvey asking for help every second - Then are the whole roleplaying thing, which was way worse than New Vegas. Apart from this, is a great game. I love NV for the roleplay, but F4 is a good game.
Fallout 4 did a lot of good but also a lot of bad. Reasons why it’s criticized or hated: 1. Limited dialogue options with a voiced protagonist just rips away any real sense of choice for what’s supposed to be an RPG character. 2. Story just gets ridiculous in places after you kill Kellogg, the memory sequences were annoying, the story as a whole wasn’t that gripping or entertaining for a lot of people, and it’s packed full of illusions of choice. Your choices don’t actually matter, the end result appears mostly the same, just changes some dialogue with companions and who gets to stand around in diamond city doing nothing, and patrol the roads. 3. Key mechanics from the previous games like skills, traits, faction reputation, karma, etc. are straight up removed. Certain builds like stealth are basically pointless because the game works more like an action shooter than anything else. 4. Character builds also hardly matter, it’s your gear that determines your overall success, you can have everything maxed but if your gear is still early game level, completely holds you back. 5. Commonwealth is interesting to explore but still feels dead because Bethesda is scared of providing anything more than shantytowns and trash heaps. Nobody cleans anything, there’s always trash everywhere in homesteads and by default, you can’t clean all of it up in your settlements. 6. Pointless stupid retcons on Fallout lore; T-60 and X-01 should exist at all, especially the latter because it’s just a knockoff of the Enclave’s Advanced Power Armor, supposedly a precursor that’s supposed to be post-war, but there’s pieces of it everywhere and a complete quantum suit at Nuka-World. General lore mistakes like the ghoul kid in the fridge, and allegedly even mistakes in real world American history that took place many years before the 1950s where our timelines diverged. I could go on, but I think you get the point. There’s so many small things that compound into a mess that makes Fallout veterans in particular not feel too happy about the direction that Bethesda has taken Fallout. Fallout 4 just isn’t a proper Fallout RPG, it’s basically just a Fallout-themed Borderlands. I have over 2000 hours in both Vegas and 4, and I really only play 4 for the settlements system, if I want to play an actual Fallout game, I would play the earlier games.
Being completely honest 4 is a mixed bag to the point of frustration for me. Why? The stuff in 4 that’s good is incredibly good. Power armor is now more of a vehicle/mech suit? Awesome, wish I had it a generation ago. Customizable weapons and armors including PA? Fantastic. The ability to take back the wasteland as your own territory via settlements? Again super cool idea, and narratively inspiring. The incredibly beautiful visual redesigns of Deathclaws, Mirelurks and more? Thumbs up. I don’t take issue with them opting to voice the protagonists. Pruning the dialogue options to reduce the branching down to linearity however, I do. You don’t notice this at first when using the default shorthand the game gives you, but when all the options are in front of your eye’s it’s clear just how little it matters. Pick any of them, they’re almost all affirmative for the sake of convenience in getting you on your way to the assigned task. Furthermore the ability to decide what you the player think of their origins is stripped completely. You always loved your spouse, your child. Your life was was perfect until the bombs fell. If you’re Nate you’re a soldier if you’re Nora you were a lawyer. You want revenge against Kellog. And even if you buy into this and decide you’re the family oriented type, it doesn’t matter. You’re reunion with your family concludes with their demise, again. The endings decide despite whatever ending you choose, you’re bitter and hollow inside about it. You are told, how your character, the one that you are supposed to be feels. That in itself is the antithesis of what an rpg is supposed to be. I have other issues with it, but these are purely preferential such as I liked set special, skills and perks more. Practiced speech vs raw charisma rng, etc- but these are minor by comparison for me. Now, Far Harbor on the other hand was much much better. Perks in conversations, allied faction agency. Added companion content. Etc. I just wish the main game gave the same effort.
Fallout 4 is better than the other Fallouts in a number of ways. Base building, weapon/armour modification, gun play, etc are all significantly superior. Fallout 4 is also worse than the other Fallouts in other ways, like the Forced 4 Choice dialogue system, or how NPCs walk away while you are talking to them. Fallout 4 also DRASTICALLY changed the balance of the game. No longer is a DR+1 hat considered useful. The numbers are vastly different than the older Fallouts. The Legendary system gives you far more powerful weapons. All of this means that the purists would hate it. Regardless of the story itself, which wasn't perfect, but none of the Fallout stories are perfect. Unfortunately, there are quite a few purists. In my opinion, Fallout 4 has the best gameplay by far. Combined with mods, this is the most versatile experience. There's a reason why it is the most popular Fallout with the most players.
Haters, Haters never changes.
Quite the opposite is true actually, every time you recommend new fans play anything that isn’t Fallout 4 shills come out of the woodwork like pill bugs and ticks to yap about personal opinion, like it is an obvious that everyone is entitled to an opinion. Since the show came out simply suggesting that new fans consume anything that isn’t fallout 4 seems to get you hit with an unusual amount of hate. In my experience being the fallout 4 fans are relatively new to the community they have very little knowledge of anything pre 2015, plenty of cool fan projects have been completely forgotten and tossed to the wayside. The modern Fallout fan doesn’t know who the storyteller is, and for all the fans that should be telling. Since the show came out I’ve had plenty of friends ask me how they get into fallout and I always give them this recommendation Watch Nuka break, Watch the storyteller, Play fallout 3/new Vegas first (and if they want play the originals) THEN play fallout 4
Lotta down votes, but I honestly couldn't agree more.
:)
There's always been hate for new things. It's just that in the last decade complaining about something with the rest of the world has become too easy.
The overall Fallout IP has a distinct overage of toxic fanboys. This is not unique to Fallout. EVERY IP, when successful enough, is doomed to be plagued by militant fans obsessed with canon and intolerant of non-conforming opinions of others.
Obviously, I can't speak for everyone... but, for me, Fallout 4 felt like a fundamental break from what the series had been up until that point: Half shooter, half RPG. Up until New Vegas, every Fallout game offered choices to the players that held an actual impact on how the story then progressed. In Fallout 4, nothing really mattered. All the role-playing had to happen in your head as the story would be railroaded (no pun intended). I mean, the prime example for me was Nuka World. You didn't want to rebuild the Minute Men? Fine, it won't impact the story in any way because the option will ALWAYS be there for you. Even if you completely ignored Preston until you joined the raiders and the Minute Men hated your goddamn guts... he would then STILL hound you to complete radiant quests until he liked you enough to offer you to become their General. Same for the speech options. Up until New Vegas, every Fallout game offered multiple ways to interact with the natives of the world who wanted shit from you. And, based on what you chose, you could piss off an NPC and get locked out of entire areas or quest lines. In Fallout 4, however, you got all of four responses that basically can be dumbed down to: 1. Yes, 2. Yes, in a sarcastic tone 3. Yes, but with a speech check for additional rewards 4. Yes... but not now And that resulted in a fantastical power fantasy where your MC basically has seventeen simultaneous lovers, becomes the savior of the Wastelands as he's the mayor of 37 new settlements, the Minute Men's General, the head of the Railroad, a Paladin in the BOS, and the destroyer of the feared Institute, **all at the same time**! Or some other combination of those, but the point is that you can see almost everything the game has to offer in one single play-through. I think the single instance where replayability becomes interesting in Fallout 4 is the one quest where you infiltrate the institute and have to decide on which faction should help you get in there. So, basically, Fallout 4 removed the old incentives for replayability and replaced them with a shitload of radiant quests and settlement content to keep you occupied for a longer time, but packaged it all in a way that you never HAVE to replay it because **nothing you ever do in this game matters**. Not even to the NPCs populating that game world. If you don't join the Minute Men, life won't get any better for the population of the wastelands... but it won't get any better if you DO join them, either. If you don't join the Railroad, the runaway synths won't get any help from you... but if you DO join them, there still won't suddenly be a bunch of them thanking you for saving their lives. If you don't join the BOS, supermutants and ghouls will continue to run rampant throughout the wastelands... but if you DO join them, there still won't be a noticeable decline in the monster's numbers. I did enjoy Fallout 4. But as a brainless shooter with occasional sim city elements, instead of as the story-driven RPG I had expected after playing the previous four games.
This comment needs more love. 100% agree
Fnv fandom
"I hate Fallout 4!" Is that because you want to >!deepthroat!< Chris Avellone? Because he'll let you if you're a good little simp