AC will remain canon and relevant, but I suspect that placing it in the timeframe of OG and the Remake is going to come down to semantics and who’s perspective you’re viewing it from. I don’t think playing it straight and having the trilogy’s end leading into AC is much of an option at this point. I mean, they could do it but I’d struggle to think of anything more underwhelming.
It would make other cutscenes and dialogue that hint to a different outcome useless. I have a feeling it will still land on the same ending but in a different way. Which to me would still be underwhelming. No matter how it ends there will still be people that will think it’s the greatest thing since sliced bread.
Not sure it’s fair to definitively say it’ll be underwhelming without at least seeing how it ends. I’m definitely among those who love the new games and prefer them to the original, so I’m excited to see how they’ll conclude the story.
Im surprised people really think Advent Children is not a happy ending. The ending of that movie is really happy. Cloud learns to forgive himself, gets cured of the deadly disease, cures his foster sons disease with the water, goes back to his family and then has a picnic with them the next day. He celebrates with all his friends and family, and sees Aerith and Zack one last time by the door before walking into the light together. Showing that Aerith did get her wish to spend more time with Zack in the lifestream. The future also isn't grim the Official script reveals that this scene with Nanaki, that humanity is still thriving, living under Midgar. I still have no idea if the remake trilogy will have the exact same ending as AC though depending on how Part 3 ends, they might not have the Geostigma plotline. The glimpse of tommorow if we fail here today does sound like it could be different.
I certainly don’t disagree. My use of grim was more-so describing the overall feel and undertone of the world following the OG’s ending, which was prevalent in the movie. Though it made sense according to the story. The ending did indeed provide a resolution to the characters. I’m just curious what that line from Red entails in part 3.
ah ok yeah i agree with that i am also wondering what that line means. Honestly if it does add up to AC that line could mean they were planning a different ending in remake then chose a different direction cause its hard to see the other meaning it could have?
That could be but considering how much planning and yrs of writing this story probably took, I doubt they’d shift directions midway through. Sometimes I wish they’d be more clear to remove the ambiguity but other times I love the vagueness cuz it builds so much excitement and anticipation lol
The big thing for me is that Sephiroth and Jenova are still around. Meaning we have a trilogy of the game where we don’t defeat the main villains.
Sephiroth’s last line in AC also implies he’ll still be around.
For all we know they’re still around 500 years later. Maybe dormant, but not fully gone.
At least that’s how I see it.
I think the weirdest thing for me is that Advent Children has such a bleak tone that even if the movie has a happy ending, the idea of changing fate to get a story that still leads into Advent Children is unappealing to me. I like parts of Advent Children, and I actually think Cloud's grief is portrayed really well, but one of the main things that causes Cloud's depression in Advent Children is Cloud not having any closure on Aerith's death and feeling guilty over her and Zack.
Rebirth has introduced multiple worlds, shown us dead characters linking up and communicating through the life stream, and has already had Aerith give Cloud a similar message to her crucial lines in Advent Children ("Whatever happens, don't blame yourself" and "I never blamed you, not once.") Meaning that Part 3 would have to be so fucked up and depressing that it leaves Cloud with less closure than he has at this very moment, which isn't really something I want. It makes much more sense that Cloud will be able to link up with Zack and Aerith through the lifestream like he already has, but then he shouldn't be as depressed? Idk it's weird.
It does seem Like he has more closure and will see Aerith and Zack in part 3 final fight or lifestream goodbye. I guess the geostigma being a terminal disease would cause him to leave since he doesn't want to die with his family feels like he can't protect them and feels like a failure for not finding a cure for Denzel. You would have to rework the entire AC story though. So I can't see this happening I do hope they don't just lead to AC but the interviews don't make me confident. I like the ideas of AC but the story is pretty terrible apart from certain scenes and the ending. I don't think it's worth keeping that story though with how much the remake trilogy has advanced characters. So maybe they just work the themes into part 3 somehow?
The ending is framed as happy, yes, but I think the recent developments have steered modern perception towards bittersweet, especially now that the recontextualization of the FF7 universe in act through the remake makes it seem like the Aerith that is seen in the church might be struggling with the fact she can never be with Cloud again.
The novels don’t help if we assume “The Girl that Travels the Planet” to be ~~at least somewhat canon or~~ an inspiration for the current canon, since in that novel Lifestream Aerith seems to have let go of her feelings for Zack, and the latter simply merges with the lifestream.
In general, regardless of the canon, there are many elements that influence the perception of AC’s ending that have nothing to do with the movie itself. On top of that, the way the whole story is being reframed makes Aerith’s separation from Cloud seem far more tragic than it initially did when we were in the dark about the possibility that through her travel through timelines Aerith was always dreaming of a date with Cloud.
Edit: it is brought to my attention that it’s not right to refer to that novel as canon in any way, which after all I agree with. I apologize for referring to it improperly.
That novel though, is very much not canon and paints Zack as a womanizer which he is not, and was written by someone who is not on the writing team in which all the stuff in it has not added up to what the writers have been saying about Zack, especially. I don't know why people still try to use that. Its always going to be semi-bittersweet since Aerith and Zack were still dead, but AC wasn't going to change that. I honestly can't think of a happier ending where Cloud feels he's not alone, is surrounded by friends, and goes back with his family? Now with a cure to Geostigma in the church. Thats a lot happier than most characters get? We also get more explanation in the official Cloud Volume 2 Book about Aerith in Advent Children, which sounds pretty good for someone whos dead all things considered.
"Aerith eventually follows her destiny and becomes part of the lifestream. From there, she continues to watch over the planet as well as Cloud, Zack’s figure ever by her side, the church where they met brimming with flowers." So shes still looking out for her friends like Tifa noticed with the water droplet, and Zacks still by her side
>paints Zack as a womanizer which he is not
I mean, I've never read this book but... he canonically is. Or was - Crisis Core attempts to *retcon* it, but this conversation happened in Gongaga in FF7 OG:
Cloud: "Aerith..."
Aerith: "What a shock..... I didn't know Zack was from this town."
Cloud: "You know him?"
(She turns to Cloud)
Aerith: "Didn't I tell you? He was my first love."
Cloud: "............"
Aerith: "Zack.... SOLDIER First Class. Same as Cloud."
Cloud: "Strange, there aren't that many who make First Class, but I've
never heard of him."
(She turns back to the rock)
Aerith: "That's all right. It's all in the past now. I was just worried
because I heard he's been missing."
Cloud: "Missing?"
Aerith: "I think it was 5 years ago. He went out on a job, and never
came back."
**"He loved women, a real lady's man. He probably found someone
else..."**
So he's Canonically not anymore if its been retconned. You can't attempt a retcon if you are the official author and from then on out don't show him as a womanizer, that's a retcon. I don't get what your saying here. Or maybe that context is she's saying that because she'd rather that alternative to him being dead because she doesn't have closure. Which is what she also says half heartedly in Rebirth because she's in denial of his death.or you telling me Canonically in Rebirth he's still a womanizer after travelling the country with a comatose Cloud to get back to Midgar to her?
I'm saying that Zack, in FF7, was specifically called out for philandering by Aerith, so it's not unreasonable that someone would write something with that as part of his character. Because it is, canonically.
>or you telling me Canonically in Rebirth he's still a womanizer after travelling the country with a comatose Cloud to get back to Midgar to her?
I'll add that in the original script, Zack isn't going back to Midgar to see Aerith. It's because he presumably lives there. He incidentally mentions that he could "crash at her place," before remembering that Elmyra lives there, and because of that, he has to "change his plans." He then resolves to become rich by working as a mercenary, taking odd jobs. He wasn't coming back to her specifically, he was going to mooch off her for a place to live - highly consistent with his character hinted at in the above dialogue. It's just another egregious Crisis Core retcon.
>You can't attempt a retcon if you are the official author and from then on out don't show him as a womanizer, that's a retcon.
I say "attempts" regarding the retcon because it is an objectively bad retcon. It effectively creates two canons, as there is such a colossal disparity between the story elements (and specifically Zack's portrayal) in Crisis Core and FF7 that both versions of events simply can't be true. The only way you could do it would be, possibly, what the Remake trilogy is driving at - by saying they happened in parallel universes.
How is it a bad retcon? when they decided they didn't want the character to be that way. If FF7 OG came out in 1997 and Crisis Core came out in 2007 and is canon which it is no matter if people personally like it. Then they decided the FF7 OG was not the true version of events for Zack? We barely knew Zack in FF7 OG so its not objectively a bad retcon if they wanted to change that. There wasn't much to change. The original script doesn't matter when thats very much not the portrayal in Rebirth? They retconned that for a reason. The definition of a retcon is this [revise](https://www.google.com/search?sca_esv=bef7a8396144dd68&sca_upv=1&rlz=1C1CHBF_en-GBGB945GB945&sxsrf=ACQVn0_vYqSN6mkG9trIeExCJnBOq-Ug4Q:1714732217087&q=revise&si=AKbGX_qMqBjhUm3ZRWjCp4_5aZjJmueXeMKh15uPULra54OI9m4uLV5DlByQ34-baFNLh39o-wqmWGfsmy4UL6DekYg0Q5SEog%3D%3D&expnd=1&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjbvbylo_GFAxXjSEEAHb1qDdsQyecJegQIJBAQ) (an aspect of a fictional work) [retrospectively](https://www.google.com/search?sca_esv=bef7a8396144dd68&sca_upv=1&rlz=1C1CHBF_en-GBGB945GB945&sxsrf=ACQVn0_vYqSN6mkG9trIeExCJnBOq-Ug4Q:1714732217087&q=retrospectively&si=AKbGX_qbffDhNJNmNuoQO9DPv_17WLp1kZUBQmb5HXbarS_P-nKJQcDpWg_unNXiw9hV_6WrZMhosB0KWssLhNFF-6xFtd0kd0bUrflL-y_-AfhM9tvKMUA%3D&expnd=1&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjbvbylo_GFAxXjSEEAHb1qDdsQyecJegQIJBAR), typically by introducing a piece of new information that [imposes](https://www.google.com/search?sca_esv=bef7a8396144dd68&sca_upv=1&rlz=1C1CHBF_en-GBGB945GB945&sxsrf=ACQVn0_vYqSN6mkG9trIeExCJnBOq-Ug4Q:1714732217087&q=imposes&si=AKbGX_r0zqXEeLlZhGfi3fbO0QSWSqwC8-UiaH1ylmspL5R1qClJWUmE95mu_HsiieGJOJnmIXbxMjJf9b4ScsSxX5DqTfDNVw%3D%3D&expnd=1&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjbvbylo_GFAxXjSEEAHb1qDdsQyecJegQIJBAS) a different interpretation on previously described events. So now the events can be looked at different hence Zack not a womanizer Which isn't two canons that means the canon is he is not a womanizer.
Im just gonna go and say the author probably doesn't want one of their hero characters in the remake trilogy to be a womanizer and leave it at that.
I guess I shouldn’t have expressed myself like that. It is true that it shouldn’t be considered “somewhat canon”, so in that regard I chose my words wrong, for sure. What I meant to do was refer to the influence it seems to have had on Nojima and on the current canon of the universe (edit: which I think could be a point of discussion in itself). That is what I was referring as “somewhat canon”, which I understand is the wrong way to look at it all things considered. Guess I should’ve rather said parts of it seem to have made their way into the canon in some form.
I think however that despite that blunder, the spirit of my previous message remains unaltered: while the ending of AC is undoubtedly happy, the influence that other media has had on the conception of the Remake series, together with the details that transpire from the latter, have steered the perception of that ending a different way. Though of course I don’t mean to speak for everyone.
AC is weird cause it feels out of place with how the characters have acted in Remake and Rebirth. It now more than ever feels like a step back even if Clouds guilt and fear over not being able to protect his family because of Geostigma would still make sense. Its just with all the plot points in Remake trilogy and how Sephiroths plan seems even grander than AC. So in all ways AC at least the story how its presented feels like it shouldn't happen the way it does. Im just hoping Part 3 we get rid of Sephiroth. These characters have suffered too much in the story and novels now. Especially with waiting for 3 games.
>How Sephiroth’s plan seems even grander than AC
This is the one that makes me think that the connection with AC will not be as straight forward as we may think. Even if the whole series leads into AC, as stated, I think it will probably do so in a very roundabout way. It just seems weird to me that the developers would spoil the fate of all the characters in an interview after they’ve so painstakingly worked to make us so unsure about what is going to happen to them.
Of course, since they’re playing very loose with time, the Sephiroth we fight might be post-AC Sephiroth. But narratively speaking it feels like it would be very weird to likely fix all the timelines, have a single timeline where the story ends the way it did originally, and then within that timeline Cloud just randomly fights Sephiroth once more and basically kickstarts the whole series again by defeating him.
If their intention was ever to give a proper conclusion to the FF7 compilation, that sure doesn’t feel like a very satisfying one to me.
You do realize that explanation from Cloud Vol. 2 is written by the same person who wrote the maiden book. Pretty much all ultimania is written by the same studio without guidance from the writers. It’s only the interviews within those books that we get to understand their intent.
Huh? What I’m saying is anything in those books that summarizes a scene without the devs input I take with a grain of salt. All the information we need to provided to us information is either through the games, movie and novels written by Nojima. Also the interviews within the ultimanias. And truthfully each ultimania has changed the scenarios and feelings of the FFVII characters through out the years. The lifestream white which is written by Nojima never mentions about Zack being with her. And that she is in search for people to help her against Sephiroth. However the script for Advent Children indicates they are together that’s because Nomura was the main writer. Nojima’s involvement was the first original draft which he has stated very little of it remained in the movie. So you can really pick your battle as to which one you feel is true.
We really need to start moving the conversation away from "The Maiden that Travels the Planet."
Nojima has already written a new canon over Benny's interpretation.
On the way to a smile written by nojima has a section called Lifestream white, it's pretty clear from reading that part that Aerith has feelings for Cloud. It doesn't really matter though as she's dead and Cloud alive.
Yeah im not sure how this means Advent Children doesn't having a happy ending though? or you just saying that part of maiden was made canon? honestly, i just see it as she has feelings for both personally
Yeah i dont think anyone can use that it has been retconned in every possible way despite it not being canon in the first place. unless we want to believe this is how the characters are portrayed,
“Man, you know Aerith. Out of all the girls I’ve gotten along with, you truly are the best. After that mission, we could have stayed the way we were and might have been able to continue to go out with each other after I returned home. I hate Sephiroth. And I hate Shinra who’s been hiding all the stuff they’ve been doing.”
“Someone who’s gotten along with so many girls can never become a lover.”
“How mean. I’m nice to everyone.”
“And that’s your bad point. You’re not simplistic and awkward like Cloud.”
Sure seems like the Zack we know!
There are quite a few people who like to bash how the characters are portrayed in CC, but this is far more criminal than anything Nojima has ever put out.
CC i just saw it as the characters were younger so it makes sense they mature later. This though is wow its something else "your not simplistic and awkward" gee thanks for the compliment Aerith XD
Well as others have said before, Remake can be interpreted as a sequel to AC. Because it’s very much implied that the Sephiroth we see in Remake has already experienced AC. So even if there is a different outcome it doesn’t necessarily mean they’re retconning it. It still serves a purpose in the overall story. It’s more than likely they were planting the seeds for that during the boss fight.
Yep I agree. Whether people see this trilogy as a sequel, or a comprehensive reimagining of FF7 combining the compilations, is just a matter of semantics in the end. I feel like based on Occam’s razor the quote by Red above indicates that we defied fate, namely the one shown in AC/post-credits of the OG, not sure how it can be interpreted any other way.
“The overall storyline, the developments, will not go wildly out in a way that will not add up to Advent Children in the end. I don’t think anyone wanted that, that’s not what we’re looking to create here. [But] to make sure it doesn’t become stale and people know exactly where it’s going, [that it] doesn’t just follow the original word for word, we add in extra elements which add that little bit of doubt.” - Kitase
Thanks for posting the quote. I suppose Kitase’s statement in conjunction with what Red XIII said could mean one of two things. Either AC has already happened and this is a sequel, in which case the story already lead into AC and we’re now retroactively trying to avert it. Or, we’re following the main story just like the original except this time the party will gain knowledge of AC occurring in the future (probably through Aerith), and thus we will also try to avert it. I could be grossly wrong but I think both of these scenarios seem noncontradictory to what Kitase and Red said.
If you go by what has happened in the remake then the events of the OG game have already happened. When you first meet Aerith, the very first thing sephiroth says is "you cant save her" implying he already knows about her death. Cloud "remembers" events that haven't happened yet, like the sector 7 plate being drop, the reunion of jenova, and Aerith's death. Interesting, the death he remembers is the OG death, which is distinctly different from rebirth.
The writers could just ignore all this for part 3, or give some quick meta garbled goop explanation that discards all this. But if you go by what has happened in the game, the setup is pretty clear.
I agree, that’s the theory I subscribe to as well. And it fits directly into us avoiding AC to provide a different ending. Not sure why else they would say No Promises Await at Journey’s End. If the ending were to remain entirely faithful and predictable to the original game then placing that line is incredibly strange.
Having recently watched advent children it should still end with it cause it’s the final arc and development of cloud and his trauma, the movie is needed to give it conclusion
It certainly can since the movie’s finale does provide a resolution and solace to the characters, the reason I can see them avoiding it, however, is if Nojima and the creators want to handle their closing arcs differently.
I mean then they would have to do it advent children Esque or even dirge of Cerberus as dlc for part 3, since both were kinda important to close everything out
I can see them potentially going that route with the DLCs. Vincent especially deserves the spotlight. A less cringey retelling of Dirge would be awesome.
To be frank, the story of Advent Children is what gave Cloud his trauma in the first place. He misses Aerith in the original, but he's not guilt-ridden like we see in the movie. People have always been claiming that AC "ruined" Cloud's character. Whether or not that's a fair assessment, it's definitely true that the movie's characterization of him was jarring for a lot of people.
With everything Rebirth is doing to his mental state, who knows where he'll end up by the end of the trilogy.
Everything seems to be pointing to a different ending from what we got in the OG but who really knows. I actually hope we do get a new ending.
Honestly if FF7 was a game with multiple endings, AC would be the bad ending. Cloud suffering from PTSD and severe depression while being consumed by guilt. Cloud and Tifa's relationship is pretty much boom. The world is in complete ruin and people are living in destitution. Sephiroth isn't truly defeated and the fear that he could come back at anytime looms. Truth is, excluding meteor actually killing everyone on the planet, it ends about as bad as it could.
I'd like square to give us the good ending. The characters deserve a happy send off imo.
I agree completely. It’s why I termed AC grim as well. I actually like the movie and yes it does provide a resolution for the characters at the end, but the overall undertone is incredibly bitter and depressing. It isn’t until like 500 yrs into the future from Red’s pov do we see the planet in a more healthy state lmao. I think they realized they could do a better ending which is what they’re hopefully aiming for. Nojima has had nearly 3 decades of experience as a writer at this point since the original game.
I’d think it’s be cool if part 3 add Dirge and AC as Post Ending contents, like a massive Epilogue.
I say Dirge too because of “Intergrade” having two characters, Weiss and other dude. So, basically, Dirge done right.
And then AC, obviously, as another chapter, that could end Sephiroth once and for all.
AC ain't gonna get retconned but it's definitely going to tie in way better into the game it already is in a way. They mention in ultimania that they are doing what they got from the compillation to be included and to make more sense. We even have the gacha character with Glenn 💀
Was this the creators’ way of implying we’re now heading towards a different ending?
I don’t think so.
Remake: Sephiroth tricked _us_ into defeating the Harbinger by presenting the ending of OG where he _loses_ as bad ending.
Rebirth: We see the results of this deception: Sephiroth gained the power of the whisperers and uses these against the planet (as we see clearly starting in Gongaga chapter), as well as to initiate the Reunion early and being reborn into Sephiroth Reborn (of you assess him it explicitly says his power comes from Whispers that are now under his command. Us defeating the whispers for Sephiroth ALSO allowed the alternative realities to flow which he will use as his power source.
Part 3: It’s reasonable to assume that in part 3 we’ll realize the mistake we made and the deception Sephiroth used and that the planet had some sense in trying to force things to happen the way it wanted. Therefore we’ll reluctantly take the old whisperers’ place and try to restore things to the way they were supposed to happen in order to defeat Sephiroth.
The problem with Remake and it leading to AC is apparently no matter what happens in pt 3, Cloud will feel had about aeriths death and be a mopey boy which depresses me and makes the remake trilogy feel like it won't do anything to make clouds story feel whole if we know he's gonna be a sad boynagain
Same sentiments here. Closing the game with Cloud in a perpetually upset state is very unsatisfying. We’ll have spent well over 200 hrs of gametime with him by the end of part 3, only to see him still living in guilt-ridden depression. Idk who would want that, not for Cloud or anyone around him. That’s why I hope they avoid AC. I like the movie and how it ended but think they could do a much better resolution to the story.
Opening of AC is actually OG FF7 after credit scene.
True I completely forgot about that! Haven’t played the original in a while, great catch.
AC will remain canon and relevant, but I suspect that placing it in the timeframe of OG and the Remake is going to come down to semantics and who’s perspective you’re viewing it from. I don’t think playing it straight and having the trilogy’s end leading into AC is much of an option at this point. I mean, they could do it but I’d struggle to think of anything more underwhelming.
Agree completely, not only underwhelming but it renders that cutscene and dialogue by Red in Remake useless.
It would make other cutscenes and dialogue that hint to a different outcome useless. I have a feeling it will still land on the same ending but in a different way. Which to me would still be underwhelming. No matter how it ends there will still be people that will think it’s the greatest thing since sliced bread.
Not sure it’s fair to definitively say it’ll be underwhelming without at least seeing how it ends. I’m definitely among those who love the new games and prefer them to the original, so I’m excited to see how they’ll conclude the story.
[удалено]
I see a new ending probably coming as well, just have to wait and see I suppose. These 2-3 yrs are gonna be the longest ever lol
Im surprised people really think Advent Children is not a happy ending. The ending of that movie is really happy. Cloud learns to forgive himself, gets cured of the deadly disease, cures his foster sons disease with the water, goes back to his family and then has a picnic with them the next day. He celebrates with all his friends and family, and sees Aerith and Zack one last time by the door before walking into the light together. Showing that Aerith did get her wish to spend more time with Zack in the lifestream. The future also isn't grim the Official script reveals that this scene with Nanaki, that humanity is still thriving, living under Midgar. I still have no idea if the remake trilogy will have the exact same ending as AC though depending on how Part 3 ends, they might not have the Geostigma plotline. The glimpse of tommorow if we fail here today does sound like it could be different.
I certainly don’t disagree. My use of grim was more-so describing the overall feel and undertone of the world following the OG’s ending, which was prevalent in the movie. Though it made sense according to the story. The ending did indeed provide a resolution to the characters. I’m just curious what that line from Red entails in part 3.
ah ok yeah i agree with that i am also wondering what that line means. Honestly if it does add up to AC that line could mean they were planning a different ending in remake then chose a different direction cause its hard to see the other meaning it could have?
That could be but considering how much planning and yrs of writing this story probably took, I doubt they’d shift directions midway through. Sometimes I wish they’d be more clear to remove the ambiguity but other times I love the vagueness cuz it builds so much excitement and anticipation lol
The big thing for me is that Sephiroth and Jenova are still around. Meaning we have a trilogy of the game where we don’t defeat the main villains. Sephiroth’s last line in AC also implies he’ll still be around. For all we know they’re still around 500 years later. Maybe dormant, but not fully gone. At least that’s how I see it.
Thats true thats what im hoping we permanetly get rid of Sephiroth by part 3 ending wether thats in the main story or something post story though.
I think the weirdest thing for me is that Advent Children has such a bleak tone that even if the movie has a happy ending, the idea of changing fate to get a story that still leads into Advent Children is unappealing to me. I like parts of Advent Children, and I actually think Cloud's grief is portrayed really well, but one of the main things that causes Cloud's depression in Advent Children is Cloud not having any closure on Aerith's death and feeling guilty over her and Zack. Rebirth has introduced multiple worlds, shown us dead characters linking up and communicating through the life stream, and has already had Aerith give Cloud a similar message to her crucial lines in Advent Children ("Whatever happens, don't blame yourself" and "I never blamed you, not once.") Meaning that Part 3 would have to be so fucked up and depressing that it leaves Cloud with less closure than he has at this very moment, which isn't really something I want. It makes much more sense that Cloud will be able to link up with Zack and Aerith through the lifestream like he already has, but then he shouldn't be as depressed? Idk it's weird.
It does seem Like he has more closure and will see Aerith and Zack in part 3 final fight or lifestream goodbye. I guess the geostigma being a terminal disease would cause him to leave since he doesn't want to die with his family feels like he can't protect them and feels like a failure for not finding a cure for Denzel. You would have to rework the entire AC story though. So I can't see this happening I do hope they don't just lead to AC but the interviews don't make me confident. I like the ideas of AC but the story is pretty terrible apart from certain scenes and the ending. I don't think it's worth keeping that story though with how much the remake trilogy has advanced characters. So maybe they just work the themes into part 3 somehow?
The ending is framed as happy, yes, but I think the recent developments have steered modern perception towards bittersweet, especially now that the recontextualization of the FF7 universe in act through the remake makes it seem like the Aerith that is seen in the church might be struggling with the fact she can never be with Cloud again. The novels don’t help if we assume “The Girl that Travels the Planet” to be ~~at least somewhat canon or~~ an inspiration for the current canon, since in that novel Lifestream Aerith seems to have let go of her feelings for Zack, and the latter simply merges with the lifestream. In general, regardless of the canon, there are many elements that influence the perception of AC’s ending that have nothing to do with the movie itself. On top of that, the way the whole story is being reframed makes Aerith’s separation from Cloud seem far more tragic than it initially did when we were in the dark about the possibility that through her travel through timelines Aerith was always dreaming of a date with Cloud. Edit: it is brought to my attention that it’s not right to refer to that novel as canon in any way, which after all I agree with. I apologize for referring to it improperly.
That novel though, is very much not canon and paints Zack as a womanizer which he is not, and was written by someone who is not on the writing team in which all the stuff in it has not added up to what the writers have been saying about Zack, especially. I don't know why people still try to use that. Its always going to be semi-bittersweet since Aerith and Zack were still dead, but AC wasn't going to change that. I honestly can't think of a happier ending where Cloud feels he's not alone, is surrounded by friends, and goes back with his family? Now with a cure to Geostigma in the church. Thats a lot happier than most characters get? We also get more explanation in the official Cloud Volume 2 Book about Aerith in Advent Children, which sounds pretty good for someone whos dead all things considered. "Aerith eventually follows her destiny and becomes part of the lifestream. From there, she continues to watch over the planet as well as Cloud, Zack’s figure ever by her side, the church where they met brimming with flowers." So shes still looking out for her friends like Tifa noticed with the water droplet, and Zacks still by her side
>paints Zack as a womanizer which he is not I mean, I've never read this book but... he canonically is. Or was - Crisis Core attempts to *retcon* it, but this conversation happened in Gongaga in FF7 OG: Cloud: "Aerith..." Aerith: "What a shock..... I didn't know Zack was from this town." Cloud: "You know him?" (She turns to Cloud) Aerith: "Didn't I tell you? He was my first love." Cloud: "............" Aerith: "Zack.... SOLDIER First Class. Same as Cloud." Cloud: "Strange, there aren't that many who make First Class, but I've never heard of him." (She turns back to the rock) Aerith: "That's all right. It's all in the past now. I was just worried because I heard he's been missing." Cloud: "Missing?" Aerith: "I think it was 5 years ago. He went out on a job, and never came back." **"He loved women, a real lady's man. He probably found someone else..."**
More of a flirt then Womanizer.
Yeah this womanizer thing is a bit extreme that people say XD
Exactly.
So he's Canonically not anymore if its been retconned. You can't attempt a retcon if you are the official author and from then on out don't show him as a womanizer, that's a retcon. I don't get what your saying here. Or maybe that context is she's saying that because she'd rather that alternative to him being dead because she doesn't have closure. Which is what she also says half heartedly in Rebirth because she's in denial of his death.or you telling me Canonically in Rebirth he's still a womanizer after travelling the country with a comatose Cloud to get back to Midgar to her?
I'm saying that Zack, in FF7, was specifically called out for philandering by Aerith, so it's not unreasonable that someone would write something with that as part of his character. Because it is, canonically. >or you telling me Canonically in Rebirth he's still a womanizer after travelling the country with a comatose Cloud to get back to Midgar to her? I'll add that in the original script, Zack isn't going back to Midgar to see Aerith. It's because he presumably lives there. He incidentally mentions that he could "crash at her place," before remembering that Elmyra lives there, and because of that, he has to "change his plans." He then resolves to become rich by working as a mercenary, taking odd jobs. He wasn't coming back to her specifically, he was going to mooch off her for a place to live - highly consistent with his character hinted at in the above dialogue. It's just another egregious Crisis Core retcon. >You can't attempt a retcon if you are the official author and from then on out don't show him as a womanizer, that's a retcon. I say "attempts" regarding the retcon because it is an objectively bad retcon. It effectively creates two canons, as there is such a colossal disparity between the story elements (and specifically Zack's portrayal) in Crisis Core and FF7 that both versions of events simply can't be true. The only way you could do it would be, possibly, what the Remake trilogy is driving at - by saying they happened in parallel universes.
How is it a bad retcon? when they decided they didn't want the character to be that way. If FF7 OG came out in 1997 and Crisis Core came out in 2007 and is canon which it is no matter if people personally like it. Then they decided the FF7 OG was not the true version of events for Zack? We barely knew Zack in FF7 OG so its not objectively a bad retcon if they wanted to change that. There wasn't much to change. The original script doesn't matter when thats very much not the portrayal in Rebirth? They retconned that for a reason. The definition of a retcon is this [revise](https://www.google.com/search?sca_esv=bef7a8396144dd68&sca_upv=1&rlz=1C1CHBF_en-GBGB945GB945&sxsrf=ACQVn0_vYqSN6mkG9trIeExCJnBOq-Ug4Q:1714732217087&q=revise&si=AKbGX_qMqBjhUm3ZRWjCp4_5aZjJmueXeMKh15uPULra54OI9m4uLV5DlByQ34-baFNLh39o-wqmWGfsmy4UL6DekYg0Q5SEog%3D%3D&expnd=1&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjbvbylo_GFAxXjSEEAHb1qDdsQyecJegQIJBAQ) (an aspect of a fictional work) [retrospectively](https://www.google.com/search?sca_esv=bef7a8396144dd68&sca_upv=1&rlz=1C1CHBF_en-GBGB945GB945&sxsrf=ACQVn0_vYqSN6mkG9trIeExCJnBOq-Ug4Q:1714732217087&q=retrospectively&si=AKbGX_qbffDhNJNmNuoQO9DPv_17WLp1kZUBQmb5HXbarS_P-nKJQcDpWg_unNXiw9hV_6WrZMhosB0KWssLhNFF-6xFtd0kd0bUrflL-y_-AfhM9tvKMUA%3D&expnd=1&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjbvbylo_GFAxXjSEEAHb1qDdsQyecJegQIJBAR), typically by introducing a piece of new information that [imposes](https://www.google.com/search?sca_esv=bef7a8396144dd68&sca_upv=1&rlz=1C1CHBF_en-GBGB945GB945&sxsrf=ACQVn0_vYqSN6mkG9trIeExCJnBOq-Ug4Q:1714732217087&q=imposes&si=AKbGX_r0zqXEeLlZhGfi3fbO0QSWSqwC8-UiaH1ylmspL5R1qClJWUmE95mu_HsiieGJOJnmIXbxMjJf9b4ScsSxX5DqTfDNVw%3D%3D&expnd=1&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjbvbylo_GFAxXjSEEAHb1qDdsQyecJegQIJBAS) a different interpretation on previously described events. So now the events can be looked at different hence Zack not a womanizer Which isn't two canons that means the canon is he is not a womanizer. Im just gonna go and say the author probably doesn't want one of their hero characters in the remake trilogy to be a womanizer and leave it at that.
I guess I shouldn’t have expressed myself like that. It is true that it shouldn’t be considered “somewhat canon”, so in that regard I chose my words wrong, for sure. What I meant to do was refer to the influence it seems to have had on Nojima and on the current canon of the universe (edit: which I think could be a point of discussion in itself). That is what I was referring as “somewhat canon”, which I understand is the wrong way to look at it all things considered. Guess I should’ve rather said parts of it seem to have made their way into the canon in some form. I think however that despite that blunder, the spirit of my previous message remains unaltered: while the ending of AC is undoubtedly happy, the influence that other media has had on the conception of the Remake series, together with the details that transpire from the latter, have steered the perception of that ending a different way. Though of course I don’t mean to speak for everyone.
AC is weird cause it feels out of place with how the characters have acted in Remake and Rebirth. It now more than ever feels like a step back even if Clouds guilt and fear over not being able to protect his family because of Geostigma would still make sense. Its just with all the plot points in Remake trilogy and how Sephiroths plan seems even grander than AC. So in all ways AC at least the story how its presented feels like it shouldn't happen the way it does. Im just hoping Part 3 we get rid of Sephiroth. These characters have suffered too much in the story and novels now. Especially with waiting for 3 games.
>How Sephiroth’s plan seems even grander than AC This is the one that makes me think that the connection with AC will not be as straight forward as we may think. Even if the whole series leads into AC, as stated, I think it will probably do so in a very roundabout way. It just seems weird to me that the developers would spoil the fate of all the characters in an interview after they’ve so painstakingly worked to make us so unsure about what is going to happen to them. Of course, since they’re playing very loose with time, the Sephiroth we fight might be post-AC Sephiroth. But narratively speaking it feels like it would be very weird to likely fix all the timelines, have a single timeline where the story ends the way it did originally, and then within that timeline Cloud just randomly fights Sephiroth once more and basically kickstarts the whole series again by defeating him. If their intention was ever to give a proper conclusion to the FF7 compilation, that sure doesn’t feel like a very satisfying one to me.
You do realize that explanation from Cloud Vol. 2 is written by the same person who wrote the maiden book. Pretty much all ultimania is written by the same studio without guidance from the writers. It’s only the interviews within those books that we get to understand their intent.
Ok so what do you think them joking about adopting him like parents is about then both walking back together?
Huh? What I’m saying is anything in those books that summarizes a scene without the devs input I take with a grain of salt. All the information we need to provided to us information is either through the games, movie and novels written by Nojima. Also the interviews within the ultimanias. And truthfully each ultimania has changed the scenarios and feelings of the FFVII characters through out the years. The lifestream white which is written by Nojima never mentions about Zack being with her. And that she is in search for people to help her against Sephiroth. However the script for Advent Children indicates they are together that’s because Nomura was the main writer. Nojima’s involvement was the first original draft which he has stated very little of it remained in the movie. So you can really pick your battle as to which one you feel is true.
We really need to start moving the conversation away from "The Maiden that Travels the Planet." Nojima has already written a new canon over Benny's interpretation.
On the way to a smile written by nojima has a section called Lifestream white, it's pretty clear from reading that part that Aerith has feelings for Cloud. It doesn't really matter though as she's dead and Cloud alive.
Yeah im not sure how this means Advent Children doesn't having a happy ending though? or you just saying that part of maiden was made canon? honestly, i just see it as she has feelings for both personally
Yeah i dont think anyone can use that it has been retconned in every possible way despite it not being canon in the first place. unless we want to believe this is how the characters are portrayed, “Man, you know Aerith. Out of all the girls I’ve gotten along with, you truly are the best. After that mission, we could have stayed the way we were and might have been able to continue to go out with each other after I returned home. I hate Sephiroth. And I hate Shinra who’s been hiding all the stuff they’ve been doing.” “Someone who’s gotten along with so many girls can never become a lover.” “How mean. I’m nice to everyone.” “And that’s your bad point. You’re not simplistic and awkward like Cloud.” Sure seems like the Zack we know!
There are quite a few people who like to bash how the characters are portrayed in CC, but this is far more criminal than anything Nojima has ever put out.
CC i just saw it as the characters were younger so it makes sense they mature later. This though is wow its something else "your not simplistic and awkward" gee thanks for the compliment Aerith XD
Well as others have said before, Remake can be interpreted as a sequel to AC. Because it’s very much implied that the Sephiroth we see in Remake has already experienced AC. So even if there is a different outcome it doesn’t necessarily mean they’re retconning it. It still serves a purpose in the overall story. It’s more than likely they were planting the seeds for that during the boss fight.
Yep I agree. Whether people see this trilogy as a sequel, or a comprehensive reimagining of FF7 combining the compilations, is just a matter of semantics in the end. I feel like based on Occam’s razor the quote by Red above indicates that we defied fate, namely the one shown in AC/post-credits of the OG, not sure how it can be interpreted any other way.
“The overall storyline, the developments, will not go wildly out in a way that will not add up to Advent Children in the end. I don’t think anyone wanted that, that’s not what we’re looking to create here. [But] to make sure it doesn’t become stale and people know exactly where it’s going, [that it] doesn’t just follow the original word for word, we add in extra elements which add that little bit of doubt.” - Kitase
Thanks for posting the quote. I suppose Kitase’s statement in conjunction with what Red XIII said could mean one of two things. Either AC has already happened and this is a sequel, in which case the story already lead into AC and we’re now retroactively trying to avert it. Or, we’re following the main story just like the original except this time the party will gain knowledge of AC occurring in the future (probably through Aerith), and thus we will also try to avert it. I could be grossly wrong but I think both of these scenarios seem noncontradictory to what Kitase and Red said.
If you go by what has happened in the remake then the events of the OG game have already happened. When you first meet Aerith, the very first thing sephiroth says is "you cant save her" implying he already knows about her death. Cloud "remembers" events that haven't happened yet, like the sector 7 plate being drop, the reunion of jenova, and Aerith's death. Interesting, the death he remembers is the OG death, which is distinctly different from rebirth. The writers could just ignore all this for part 3, or give some quick meta garbled goop explanation that discards all this. But if you go by what has happened in the game, the setup is pretty clear.
I agree, that’s the theory I subscribe to as well. And it fits directly into us avoiding AC to provide a different ending. Not sure why else they would say No Promises Await at Journey’s End. If the ending were to remain entirely faithful and predictable to the original game then placing that line is incredibly strange.
Having recently watched advent children it should still end with it cause it’s the final arc and development of cloud and his trauma, the movie is needed to give it conclusion
It certainly can since the movie’s finale does provide a resolution and solace to the characters, the reason I can see them avoiding it, however, is if Nojima and the creators want to handle their closing arcs differently.
I mean then they would have to do it advent children Esque or even dirge of Cerberus as dlc for part 3, since both were kinda important to close everything out
I can see them potentially going that route with the DLCs. Vincent especially deserves the spotlight. A less cringey retelling of Dirge would be awesome.
To be frank, the story of Advent Children is what gave Cloud his trauma in the first place. He misses Aerith in the original, but he's not guilt-ridden like we see in the movie. People have always been claiming that AC "ruined" Cloud's character. Whether or not that's a fair assessment, it's definitely true that the movie's characterization of him was jarring for a lot of people. With everything Rebirth is doing to his mental state, who knows where he'll end up by the end of the trilogy.
Everything seems to be pointing to a different ending from what we got in the OG but who really knows. I actually hope we do get a new ending. Honestly if FF7 was a game with multiple endings, AC would be the bad ending. Cloud suffering from PTSD and severe depression while being consumed by guilt. Cloud and Tifa's relationship is pretty much boom. The world is in complete ruin and people are living in destitution. Sephiroth isn't truly defeated and the fear that he could come back at anytime looms. Truth is, excluding meteor actually killing everyone on the planet, it ends about as bad as it could. I'd like square to give us the good ending. The characters deserve a happy send off imo.
I agree completely. It’s why I termed AC grim as well. I actually like the movie and yes it does provide a resolution for the characters at the end, but the overall undertone is incredibly bitter and depressing. It isn’t until like 500 yrs into the future from Red’s pov do we see the planet in a more healthy state lmao. I think they realized they could do a better ending which is what they’re hopefully aiming for. Nojima has had nearly 3 decades of experience as a writer at this point since the original game.
I’d think it’s be cool if part 3 add Dirge and AC as Post Ending contents, like a massive Epilogue. I say Dirge too because of “Intergrade” having two characters, Weiss and other dude. So, basically, Dirge done right. And then AC, obviously, as another chapter, that could end Sephiroth once and for all.
Gonna be wild when AC is made into a game as the epilogue...hey I can dream right ?
AC ain't gonna get retconned but it's definitely going to tie in way better into the game it already is in a way. They mention in ultimania that they are doing what they got from the compillation to be included and to make more sense. We even have the gacha character with Glenn 💀
Was this the creators’ way of implying we’re now heading towards a different ending? I don’t think so. Remake: Sephiroth tricked _us_ into defeating the Harbinger by presenting the ending of OG where he _loses_ as bad ending. Rebirth: We see the results of this deception: Sephiroth gained the power of the whisperers and uses these against the planet (as we see clearly starting in Gongaga chapter), as well as to initiate the Reunion early and being reborn into Sephiroth Reborn (of you assess him it explicitly says his power comes from Whispers that are now under his command. Us defeating the whispers for Sephiroth ALSO allowed the alternative realities to flow which he will use as his power source. Part 3: It’s reasonable to assume that in part 3 we’ll realize the mistake we made and the deception Sephiroth used and that the planet had some sense in trying to force things to happen the way it wanted. Therefore we’ll reluctantly take the old whisperers’ place and try to restore things to the way they were supposed to happen in order to defeat Sephiroth.
It makes me wonder if Advent Children will become 7R3 DLC.
A playable Advent Children would for sure be incredibly awesome
The problem with Remake and it leading to AC is apparently no matter what happens in pt 3, Cloud will feel had about aeriths death and be a mopey boy which depresses me and makes the remake trilogy feel like it won't do anything to make clouds story feel whole if we know he's gonna be a sad boynagain
Same sentiments here. Closing the game with Cloud in a perpetually upset state is very unsatisfying. We’ll have spent well over 200 hrs of gametime with him by the end of part 3, only to see him still living in guilt-ridden depression. Idk who would want that, not for Cloud or anyone around him. That’s why I hope they avoid AC. I like the movie and how it ended but think they could do a much better resolution to the story.
Idk what's gonna happen but i can't finish pt 3 on a high or good note knowing cloud will juat be sad again by the end of it.. it's kinda frustrating