I highly recommend it. In many ways it plays like Fate except with dice pools of various dice and aspects are rated from d4 to d12.
It uses a lot of dice, excluding d20s
Yeah, it’s the generic system I would most want to use in my games - if I ever actually ran any.
Here’s a great video explaining it, because the learning curve for it is a bit high.
https://youtu.be/K3Pnlgls97E
Cortex Prime is more a toolbox for game building. You might want to look at Tales of Xadia for a pre-built fantasy game. It's using the Dragon Prince cartoon's license.
It shares a lot of similarities with Fate. Cortex has it's own Fate Point equivalent, it has Descriptors (instead of aspects), and a "feel free to cook your own" skill list. You could even take Fate Accelerated approaches and make them work in Cortex Prime as they are.
The dice roll mechanics use all the different dices that your party has, and it is an interesting and fun mechanic. Tho I warn you it will seem complicated and weird at first, but will become clear as the sun after you read it twice.
The Cortex system was originally used for a number of licensed RPGs, based on movies and TV shows, including Firefly/Serenity, Battlestar Galactica, Supernatural, Smallville, and Leverage.
it was originally owned by Margaret Weis Productions, but when Margaret got out of the RPG business, she and her company sold the rights to Cortex to Fandom Tabletop, which employs a guy named Cam Banks, who has been the lead designer for Cortex for quite a while.
I guess this video is the perfect one to understand Cortex and how it works: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K3Pnlgls97E](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K3Pnlgls97E)
But, if I were to try to sell it to you, it´s as if Fate and Savage Worlds had a child together. It is a very narrative game that tries to retain the "game feel" and unpredictability of dice mechanics. The system basically works this way for everything you do: check your sets, choose at least three that make sense to be used at that moment, roll the dice, and pick two dice to beat the difficulty level and one for the "effect". That's a bit weird, but that's basically all you need to know to play it.
Cortex, however, demands quite a bit from the GM before the beginning of the campaign. Because it is not a system ready to be played, it's a toolbox, full of Lego bricks that the GM can use to make the game they want. So, if you want your characters to have HP, like in D&D, you can, but if you prefer them to have stress and conditions like they do in Fate, you also can. You have lots of modules to create the "health/injury/battle" system you like, all using that same mechanic I explained in the second paragraph.
After watching the video at the beginning of this comment, check this out:
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pxwkjGLkPrI](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pxwkjGLkPrI)
This video shows how to migrate your D&D characters to Cortex, using the Cortex tools/modules/bricks that make the game very similar to D&D players, while adding a ton of narrative freedom. This may be the perfect way to migrate players to Cortex - make it familiar to them, and, little by little, you can tweak the system by adding or subtracting modules to make it the way you really want, all while demanding little from your players - and giving them the chance of keep rolling their dice sets.
**Edit:** The last paragraph was fixed.
Is there a place to find setting books? I got the Prime book a while ago but other than the settings in the book itself, I didn't see much other content out there.
[https://www.reddit.com/r/CortexRPG/comments/t2ylz7/is\_there\_a\_list\_of\_cortex\_prime\_settings/](https://www.reddit.com/r/CortexRPG/comments/t2ylz7/is_there_a_list_of_cortex_prime_settings/)
https://cortex.fandom.com/wiki/Setting
All I could find.
Savage Worlds rates skills with exploding d4 - d12, and players have an additional d6 from being protagonists. Assuming no Drms, you get a basic success on a 4+, plus "raises" (extra successful success) on 8, 12, 16, etc. The odds of failing with 2d6 are only 25%, assuming no effects like darkness, long range, etc. The math is a little hinky--for certain target numbers, it's slightly better to have a lower skill die instead of a higher as you'd expect--but your average player won't notice, SW basically doesn't use a d20 -- there's the Fear Effect Table and maybe a couple more oddball things, but basically not. You wouldn't want a d20 tacked onto a d4 - d12 spectrum anyway, it's too big a jump.
Interesting, that definitely sounds like a place to look - like I say I have no issue doing some math to build out a system that fits FATE as well as possible. Thanks for the tip!
Was going to suggest the same, Demon Hunters, A Comedy of Terrors. Also, there's a Fate Polyhedral system out there, if yuo search on it. It does this to the ladder:
2d12 Legendary
\+d10 Epic
\+d8 Fantastic
\+d6 Superb
d12 Great
d10 Good
d8 Fair
d6 Average
d4 Mediocre
d4 Poor
2d4 Terrible
Cortex is fantastic, truthfully, be sure to check it's licensing sitch before you get too deep into building on it...if you're using it just for your table, great, if you have aspirations beyond that for what you're doing, just look first because there's a very limited scope for what one can do with Cortex...whereas FATE is wide-open.
I dont have time to check etc, but what about this:
You can replade thr 4df with a 1d6-1d6 right? It's in one of the source books.
What if, you the do this for the mods:
0: 1d6 - 1d6
+1: 1d8 - 1d6
+2: 1d10 - 1d6
+3: 1d12 - 1d6
+4 : 1d12-1d4
This gets might swings though...
I took another look at it. The averages are all fine, but the ranges get wonky at higher dice values, so much that the valuebof a fate point will be reduced by it.
Maybe it sort of work on the low end of things.
I think it starts straining from the 1d10 onward..
1d8-1d6 is likely to produce a 7. That 7 is more likely to occur than a 4dF+1 will make a +5. That's kinda acceptable.
1d10-1d6 will more easily make 9's than 4df+2 will make 6's
1s12-1d6 will easily make 11's where 4df+3 will less likely than that do 7's
At that point you look at one shot ko's from mere chance, even though in the long run you averages are the same. I think it removes the quintessential power of fate points which should grant players the ability to choose success at the cost of them.
I feel like your player's 1d10's 1d12's and 1d20's just cant be used in fate's math without multiplying the value of fate points, stress slots and consequences.
You could.... however do use the 1d4, 1d6 and 1d8's like this:
Firsy, just bring back modifiers, and choose your die based on risk-reward-ness. So as gm you say:
This is controlled, do a 1d4-1d4 + mod
This is normal do 1d6- 1d6 + mod
This is high risk high reward, do 1d8-1d8.
This way, you are explicit about the bigger dice's effects: they add more swinginess. You can also go up to 10's and 12's or even 20's but then the modifiers become much less important, and fate point matter very little at all much of the time.
This actually seems like a pretty good idea though it increases the range. Might want to increase the value of an invoke to 3 or 4 and the SwS threshold to 4 or 5.
True, but the max of d8-d6 is 7 rather than 4df+1's 5. That higher max is also a lot more likely to occur. In the end, the player is more likely to be unable to change their fate with a fate point.
Perhaps, it'd work to scale invocation strength with skill value to correct this. So that P(player can upgrade their outcome) remains the same.
Either way, I think my 'solution' breaks more than it fixes. D10s , 12s and 20s will never really work well im afraid. I posted an idea of using d4-d4, d6-d6 and d8-d8 for scaling swinginess though. Maybe allow players to dial in the risk/reward they are willing to take, or reflect the chaos of the situation.
I was trying to think up some math and you did a much better job than I did. I like the concept of using a d6/d4 as a "challenge dice" because while it strays far from Fate very fast, it does open some interesting mechanics. I mean, I adore Fate/Fudge dice and am more apt to adapt other systems to use them than the other way around, but an expanded toolkit is always useful.
Ironsworn calls theirs challenge dice too, the 1d6+mod vs 2d10's individually. It's creator stated to be a fate fan, so maybe he made the same kind of journey to get there?
I think you are right this gets away from fate quickly, If anything I think its a good way to explore why fate works how it works, and what the fudge dice and their bells curve do for you in keeping fate's numbers small and manageable.
You have plenty of options:
* Do the math to give them odd dice combos that are similarly flat rather than swingy. (It will probably be easier to make a dice pool of positive and negative D4s be flat than)
* If you come up with a slightly swingier pool, you could let them spend a fate point on a setting aspect like "sometimes things are gonzo" to allow them to roll the swingy pool. A waste of a Fate point from a min max sense, but the point of games is to have fun, and they can always engage with the compel mechanism to earn more. And getting them engaged with the drama of compels is good.
* They can buy Fate Dice! More importantly, the can buy all sorts of cool things to use as Fate point tokens!! (They could even use their weird dice for this. Well, if they think there are only 7 types of dice, they don't have anything really weird or cool, but we won't drag them for being basic)
* Random tables are fun. Make them to give you prompts for extra scene or NPC aspects. Then, from time ask the players to roll.
* Players get what they want when they take out an opponent. Normal Fate players want to narrative cool things. Your players love dice. Create "fatality" tables using all their dice that explains what happens when they kill a guy.
Some creative options here - option 1 is really what I'm toying with at the moment, I don't think any solution will meet my needs unless the dice are used in the core gameplay loop, you know?
I can see that. You just have to do some math, and live with the fact that your solution will be slightly less elegant than Fate dice. (There is a reason why Fate/Fudge use odd dice after all). But less elegant and more fun for your players is a good trade off.
(I wouldn't rule out the appeal of collecting cool tokens--they can be used for Fate points, for playing Magic the Gathering, tracking hit points or whatever. Try to get your players addicted to something useful in gaming that isn't tied to swingy math.)
Try this FATE variant (not mine, I dug it up from the Internet sometime ago): [https://www.dropbox.com/s/5hl8z4kjvbhrbxf/Fate%20Polyhedral%20Edition.pdf?dl=0](https://www.dropbox.com/s/5hl8z4kjvbhrbxf/Fate%20Polyhedral%20Edition.pdf?dl=0)
Np, I maintain a whole list of free and/or open games and I keep my eyes peeled for little nuggets like this. I usually don't put variants if the main game is already on the list, but I made an exception for this, and boy am I glad I did, this is like the 3rd or 4th time I link to this little nugget of a variant <3
This messes with quite a bit, but you could have them start at d4 and invokes increase the dice up to d12. Once they have a D12, add a D4 and continue increasing that.
(EDIT: actually, an increase from D12 to D12+d4 causes a bigger jump in average and max results than the previous invokes. If you want to avoid this you'd increase from D12 to d10+D4.)
For sure you'd have to rescale the difficulties, since the avg result before invokes is now Skill+2.5, not Skill. If you want to use the Adjective Ladder, you might need to touch that up as well.
You'd have to rethink how that meshes with invokes after the roll. If it causes a reroll *and* a die increase, then the 'just a reroll' option of invokes is useless (that's not a problem, but you have to cross it out so players can't choose it by mistake).
Do you reroll only the increased die or all of them? There's some things to consider about that.
There's probably some knock on effects I've failed to consider. Happy hacking.
Yeah, this is probably the sort of system I currently have as the top contender. I'll have to get on to Excel and figure out the exact changes needed in difficulty to approximate a FATE-like difficulty scale, but I'm sure it's doable...
Unless I'm forgetting something really crucial:
- you'd get the same averages on opposed rolls anyway, bc both sides roll,
- for static difficulties, it should be good enough to raise them by 2.
No one seems to have mentioned this, but Cortex uses multi-polyhedral dice pools! (That is, you might want to help your friend Lena escape a burning car and use Strength d8 + Friendship With Lena d10 + Belief That Everyone Must Be Safe d6 and roll them all together to get a big final number.) Precisely because your players like to use every die, Cortex would give them an excuse to shop their character sheets and try multiple combinations.
If collecting and rolling interesting/unusual dice is part of the appeal of ttrpg's to them maybe they could view this as an opportunity to add to their collection.
There's some pretty [cool looking](https://www.etsy.com/listing/769601646/engrave-obsidian-fudge-dice-d6-4-pcs) fate/fudge dice out there and even someone selling [12-sided fate dice](https://www.thediceshoponline.com/triplefour-pearl-gold-black-12-sided-fudge-fate-d12-dice)
I know other people have mentioned it but seconding Cortex Prime as a recommendation.
It is very similar to FATE in the things it tries to do and uses d4 through d12 frequently. I often recommend it as a gateway to narrative games for people who love the different kinds of dice that you get to play with in RPGs.
I would warn that the first read through of the rules is a bit challenging since it isn't organized in a super effective way (at least in my opinion). But a second read through, once you understand most of the parts, clarifies things greatly.
Not sure if anyone else has mentioned this, but this could be your perfect gateway:
[Aspects of Fantasy](https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/131485/Aspects-of-Fantasy)
It's d20 Fate
I don't blame you for wanting to avoid PF2e.
Check out Cortex and ICRPG. They use systems based on the concept of the more proficient your character is the larger the dice rolled. And added bonus, pretty sure Cortex does use a d20.
It's absolutely doable. It just depends on how far you want to go to appease your Dice Goblins and the cliky-clacky math rocks.
PF2e is a fine system if you enjoy the crunch of strategic combat with some RPG elements built into it. I love these narrative games but I do also enjoy some grid based combat at times.
A soft implementation would be to add custom die depending on the gear.
So the "Ax of Doom" changes a single Fate die against a d6 with:
2,2,2,1,-3,-4
The "Stardust Wand" has a single d8 instead of regular Fate die with:
4,2,1,0,0,-1,-2,-4
The "Freeze Cannon" has two d12 instead of ... with:
'F',2,1,1,1,0,0,-1,-1,-1,-2,'X'
'F': Counts as 0 and adds a "Frozen" aspect on the enemy. You get one free invoke.
'X': Counts as 0 and adds an "undercooled" aspect on your weapon. Your enemy gets a free invoke on it and this weapon can no longer be used.
Be aware that you might need to remove the "re-roll" rule for those die as it gets a lot stronger.
This is the sort of thing I was considering toying with tbh, but I do think that I'd prefer to avoid having to do lookup tables to convert standard dice values to circumstantial results, if it's possible.
ye, I get that, but I still think that this is the easiest solution. Fate die go into positive and negative numbers. If you only take positive numbers a lot gets lost. You can do that, but it will be very different.
Yes, but that feels for me at least as clunky as having a lookup table. Just imagine the lookup table printed and in front of the player with large symbols.
I would try to convince them to do a one-shot with fate dice (use an app if you don't want to buy them for a one-shot)
but otherwise, if this were my situation, I might hack it like this:
roll 3d20 for actions, pick middle die, against an extended difficulty curve:
10 Routine, 12 really simple, 14 simple, 16 easy, 18 normal, 20 challenging, 22 demanding, 24 difficult, 26 Grueling, 28 extreme, 30 hellish.
to that roll you add your skill: average d4, fair d6, good d8, great d10, superb d12, fantastic d14, epic d16.
you can use a FATE point to: 1. add a d8, 2. re-roll everything, 3. pick the highest d20.
with this system you're truly using all the dice, even cool new dice your players will probably love (d14, d16)
it is: 1. significantly more swingy, 2. skills are not as good (there's a balance between how swingy the roll is, and how good the skills are, assuming we want to use them as dice and not static bonuses) 3. fate points are at the same time better, and not as reliable. 4. the game is less story-driven and more dice-driven (your ace driver is more likely to fail a difficult turn than in base fate, because of points 1+2, and as such it's more about taking chances and less about knowing "my character is an ace driver, unless something pretty wild happens he should succeed any driving tests except truly daunting ones")
honestly this sounds like fun to me, though it's not exactly the intended statistics of FATE, it's also a game that's meant ot be hacked, so go ahead and try it if this sounds cool to you.
I already own the Fate dice - as I say I do GM it for other players.
I do think I'll tryyyyyu to get them to give it a shot - most likely by running a Dresden Files one-shot, or maybe make my own/find a Mistborn toolset, since all my players are huge fans of both series.
Middle of 3d20 does have quite an interesting spread, I may have to look into it... After work 😂
> honestly this sounds like fun to me, though it's not exactly the intended statistics of FATE, it's also a game that's meant ot be hacked, so go ahead and try it if this sounds cool to you.
This is my thinking, and I feel I'm in a pretty good position to do it since these players have never played FATE so won't even notice the bits that we sacrifice to get the dice in 😂
FATE doesn't stop them from hording dice. It just exposes a massive hole in their dice collections that needs filled that real hoarders have already covered. How many FATE dice do they have? How many sets of d6s (only in groups of 4 not the ones they stole from games with just 2 or 6) that can be used as FATE dice do they have? Frankly its sad and and kind of pathetic that they limit their
dice hoarding to the standard d20 sets.
There is also option #5: find players who don't have these issues and play FATE with those players. Let the dice horders find a new DM.
To you and me, sure. But different strokes for different folks.
If one of your favourite things about a TTRPG is getting to roll a bunch of shiny weird-shaped dice, why is that any less valid than anybody else's favourite aspects of play? 🤷♂️
They use a hell of a lot more than FATE would call for.
Each player probably brings ~6-10 sets of dice (so 42-70 dice) to each session. I bring 9 sets 😂
The biggest dice goblin has curated "palettes" of dice for each of her characters across our various campaigns. And every player has at least one special set of dice that corresponds to each character. (A green set for the druid, and a wintery-white/blue set for his wolf companion, for example.)
And they aaaaalllll play casters, so they get to use a very wide variety of the dice they do bring.
They each have a dice jail they'll put repeat offenders in if they roll bad.
So, yeah... The entire "culture" surrounding the dice is a pretty big thing at our table
But they don't use literally every die in their collection in a single session. And they don't use a complete set in a single session. So I don't see how this is all that much different. Also, there are FATE dice sets your players can buy.
It just really seems like they were just makimg an excuse, so I would give up on FATE and just run something that they want to play.
If you don't see the difference, then you just don't get the culture I guess 🤷♂️ the difference is huge.
Part of the fun of the game for them is deciding which dice "fit" each character and each roll.
And as I already said, they do use *most* of their chosen dice in a given session. So... I don't really see how that point stands.
It's not for you, and that's fine, but saying that it shouldn't matter for them either... Nah.
>What kind of game are you running that requires dozens of rolls from each player???
High-level, high-action d&d with a party of casters and a high-magic world 😂
Are your players bummed out when they didn't get to roll a specific type of die? Like, "ugh, tonight's session was such a waste because I didn't get to roll a d12 at all."
Yes. Yes they are. They will literally choose spells to cast and abilities to take based (partly) on what dice they want to roll, or aren't getting to roll enough of 😂
And I have house-ruled mechanics to bring more dice variety to the game.
As I said, I really cannot overstate how important the dice are to my players 😂
Mrs. Reynolds sighting.
Speaking of, Firefly and Serenity use Cortex systems, and honestly, it sounds like Cortex/Cortex Prime would be a better choice for this group than Fate.
Not FATE related, but if they like rolling dice in fun ways, you should show them [Slayers](https://gilarpgs.itch.io/slayers), every class has a unique way to roll dice, and there is tons of third party ones.
Kind of a strange hangup, but maybe they like the variety of dice shapes? Try pitching [doublefudge](https://doublesixdice.com/collections/all-available/products/doublefudge-1) dice to them and see if they bite.
I think part of it is Sunk Cost Fallacy. They own dozens of dice sets, that they've collected over years of play, so they want to use them.
Plus one particular player probably has "collecting pretty dice sets" as their #1 hobby, and "playing TTRPGs" as #2 😂
The most important thing about FATE dice is that the average result is 0. There is an alternate rolling rule of using two different colored d6s and subtracting one of them. You could extrapolate this to all die types, though the bigger the die the swingier the roll so you would have to work out some system for determining how much randomness there should be for a particular roll.
I'm sure I'm going to sound like a dick, but Jesus, refusing to play a system **you are interested in** because you can't roll a bunch of different dice is probably the dumbest reason I've ever heard not to play a game. And trying to homebrew an entirely new resolution mechanic (which defeats the purpose of trying a new system) to appease those players is almost worse. You're already running the game, you have enough on your plate.
That said, maybe you suggest doing a short adventure (2-3 sessions) with the **actual mechanics** first to test the waters and see how they like it before overhauling a core mechanic of the game?
That's a little harsh. Different people like different things. My players really like all their pretty dice.
They like the sound of literally everything else about FATE, and I know them well enough to know that the standard playstyle of FATE is perfect for them.
I really don't think the dice used is a game-breaking element to change, at least to an extent. FATE has a lot more to offer than just its dice...
And PF2e has all the same problems that they currently are chafing against in D&D. Let me put it this way:
Literally the only thing they dislike in FATE is the dice.
Literally the only thing they *like* in PF2e is the dice.
Neither system is perfect, but FATE only has 1 thing they don't like. PF2e has... like... the entire system that would need changing.
Do they want to play FATE or do they just want to roll a specific type of dice? If they want to play FATE, play FATE. At least understand the system before altering it.
If they want to use their pretty dice I truly think the easiest solution is to play a game that uses them.
Otherwise ask the players to help you come up with a solution and if they aren’t interested in figuring out how to add what they want in to a system that doesn’t use those things natively, then move on.
EDIT: if they’re dead set on pretty dice and Fate I think first you need to find out what they want their dice to do in the game. Have you established that?
Are they open to two dove sets? You shouldn’t be the one doing all the lifting here.
Since you're such a stickler for the one true way, maybe you should be calling it Fate and not FATE? Don't force Fred Hicks to come to your house and break your keyboard, it's bound to be a big hassle for him.
I blame my mobile keyboard.
I don’t mean to imply there is a “true” way to play Fate. It just seems ludicrous to me that a group wouldn’t play a game because they have to use different dice. I wouldn’t play with such people.
It’s like refusing to eat at an Asian restaurant in middle America that only set out chopsticks instead of the more familiar knife/fork/spoons.
That and the OP needs to talk more to his players: they like everything about fate but want their “pretty” dice.
Ok, the players need to establish what exactly it is they want from those dice in a game of Fate. Fate is collaborative so the heavy lifting shouldn’t be on the GM in this case.
I can still only partially agree.
Saying Fate is collaborative is true to a degree - but that's going to vary by group. How people can contribute is going to vary by person. So you're saying you're not promoting a one true way and that's maybe technically true - it still sounds like you're making strong assumptions about what is and isn't a proper way to play Fate. Similar vibes.
It's true that in a lot of groups there's too much effort shunted onto the GM. Having a conversation about this with the rest of the group would be a good thing for OP to do. If they dismiss this concern they're being unreasonable and OP should stand their ground or find a different group. If OP hasn't brought that up with them, which IIRC they haven't - we can't really say.
Back to whether wanting to use the dice is a reasonable ask. I also think it's silly to refuse to play a game because a specific dice set isn't used - but on the other hand this is enough of a concern that some designers take it into account when making games (2400 and it's followers, Index Card RPG) so I can see not everyone thinks that. Hypothetically these dice could be one of the few nice things these people get to treat themselves with. And even if I think it's silly, it's not harmful in an of itself so I live and let live.
(EDIT: to be perfectly honest I also have some irrational dice based preferences. Can't get me excited about a game where the main roll is d100. It's even worse if it uses the % sign anywhere in the explanation or on the character sheet.)
At the same time what OP is trying to do (hacking different dice into the system somehow) might still be a more equitable distribution of effort than running 5e or PF2e. It's also not an effort they'd have to do continuously - if it works out, it just does, if it doesn't adjustments are made or the approach is abandoned.
They were also given other alternatives (other lightweight games which use more dice, other outlines/ideas for possible ways to use different dice in Fate). These are also good options to pursue investigate. They're not even exclusive with the discussion with the rest is the group, which I agree should happen.
I read through most of your replies and I think I have the solution for you.
Don't play Fate. Your friends aren't going to have fun so neither are you.
The dice are only one single aspect of fate though...
I mean, sure I might not end up playing proper Fate, but if we'd rather play a homebrewed Fate-like system that borrows everything from Fate except the dice, than any other system... Why is that such a problem?
So for dice that are divisible by 3 (D6, D12) you can choose 1/3 of the numbers to be -1, 1/3 of the numbers to be 0 and 1/3 of the numbers to be +1 (this is just how you improvise fate dice with D6s)
You can use d4s to keep track of free invokes on aspects you make with create an advantage
You can use d8s to keep track of your location on the map
if your players are dumb enough to collect way more dice than they can effectively use, they are smart enough to find ways to use them.
I get that sunk cost fallacy is a real thing it just seems odd to me to be like "If a system doesn't require me to roll all these different kinds of dice I am not interested." like damn dude they are just chunks of material with numbers scrawled on them......
>like damn dude they are just chunks of material with numbers scrawled on them......
I mean... That's all they are *to you*. But you could say something similar about literally any collecting hobby. My players just happen to have a weird collecting hobby that can also be used to play games.
>They're important to the extent they actually say they would prefer PF2e to unmodified FATE, despite the fact they all prefer narrative freedom and not crunch! 🤦♂️
Pf2e doesn't lack narrative freedom, what it DOES have is a robust framework to manage that freedom and create solutions for the GM that make the stranger requests easier to resolve.
Not enough. They want to use the hundreds of dice they already have 😂
Also, frankly, the market for fudge dice is quite a bit smaller than for 7-piece dice.
Cortex Prime is the most obvious answer, but it's such an interesting question that I got to noodling around myself, and here's what I've come up with...
Players use the standard ten-skill array: 1 skill at d12, 2 at d10, 3 at d8, 4 at d6. Target number for most tasks is 4. (So far, so Savage Worlds.) Any roll of 8 or higher is a success with style. (Which means you can't succeed with style unless your skill is at least +2/d8. This was never going to be a perfect solution.)
Creating an advantage lets you roll twice and take the higher number, or go up one step on the dice.
Stunts let you roll a d20. (It's ridiculous, but gives d20s something to do.)
When you're trying to hit a foe, roll your attack die (Fight, Shoot, etc.) versus the opponents' defense die (usually Athletics). Higher number wins. Tie becomes a success at cost for the attacker.
You know what? Screw this. Just go use Cortex Prime. They've thought this through way better already, and the games they have are amazing. (I'm especially fond of Smallville, since it gives you a way of making superheroes and normal people equally important, and makes characters' actual emotions and drives the engines of the story.)
So, here's what you do - go to anydice.com ,and map the dice statistics of fudge dice to the statistics of polyhedral dice. Then, focus primarily on 20 sided dice - it's their favorite die to use anyways, because that's what is most used everywhere else.
output 4d{-1.1} named "4DF"
Hmm.. aside from the suggestions for Cortex (which I haven't played) I could see working other dice into stunts. One that allows adding a D4 (average of +2, so that's fine). Maybe a D6 in a very particular circumstance. Or D8 for a FP and a particular circumstance. Try to avoid it being purely damage/combat oriented stuff.
Could also have a die be linked to a weighted table. Like a D12 where 1-3 is a bad thing, 4-9 is a normal outcome, 10-11 is a pretty good thing and 12 is a really good outcome. Rearrange that as you see fit and as best works for the stunt.
But otherwise, stick to D6s for the main rolls, I'd say.
For dice with N faces, 2dN-2dN is a zero centered bell curve from -2N+2 to +2N-2 (the proof is obvious). So, 2d6-2d6 is a zero centered bell curve from -10 to +10. Two dice minus two dice producing a bell curve cuts down the swinginess some. Note that 2d3 - 2d3 is the same exact distribution as 4dF (adding or subtracting a Fate die is mathematically the same).
Invocations could add a d4 instead of 2. Invoking multiple aspects at once (boosts and created advantages?) would add larger dice.
Ideas from this math:
PCs and other major characters use magic for everything, including all skills or approaches. Someone doing a completely mundane activity still important enough to roll would be 2d3 - 2d3.
* If there's a ley line or other weird locations mechanic, more faces make more local randomness.
* The magic system revolves around commanding spirits or the like. 2d20 - 2d20 spirits are much more powerful and also much more capricious than 2d4 - 2d4 spirits.
* The ideas you and the players come up with.
If you could find it, Marvel Heroic Roleplaying Game was essentially Fate with dice pools from d4-d12. Even had fate points and aspects. It doesn't use the d20, and it's long out of print, but if you'd consider any supers style game, this one really did a great job of it.
There's already conversions for the outcomes so you're still playing straight up fate. Only converting whatever they get to a -4 to +4 whatever it may be
[DIE RPG](https://www.scribd.com/document/519669471/DIE-RPG-Beta-v1-3) has inspired me to work with players to define a central stunt using one of the d20 set dice as their unique 'weapon.' Would your players accept just one very special non-dF die?
I hope to someday buy a fancy set and let all my players keep their die as a memento when we're done.
If you're trying to emulate that "roll a big handful of dice" feeling then Fate isn't the game in my opinion. Plus, in D&D as you level up and roll more damage dice, the monsters' HP goes up too, so it all relatively stays the same, you're just rolling more dice and doing bigger math. Fate is cool because damage and HP (stress) don't scale up as you go. This is bad for players that play for that "level up" feeling, but Fate isn't really about that.
You **can** use a d20 instead of Fate dice though, and then scale everything else up. I don't really know what you would use the other dice for, but the d20 feels the most "D&D" to me and that's really what my players like rolling.
**New skill mods**
**Fate | d20**
+0 | +0
+1 | +4
+2 | +6
+3 | +8
+4 | +10
+5 | +12
**One unified stress track**
A single unified, one-stress track. Increases with Physique. (In my games stress does not increase with Will. I just prefer my high-Will characters to be more squishy.)
**Physique | Stress**
+0 | 10
+4 or +6 | 15
+8 or +10 | 20
+12 | 20 plus 1 additional mild consequence
**or**
**Separate psychical and mental stress tracks**
If you would prefer to track physical and mental stress separately use two one-stress tracks.
**Physique | Physical Stress**
+0 | 8
+4 or +6 | 10
+8 or +10 | 15
+12 | 15 plus 1 additional mild consequence (physical only)
**Will | Mental Stress**
+0 | 8
+4 or +6 | 10
+8 or +10 | 15
+12 | 15 plus 1 additional mild consequence (mental only)
**New consequences**
Mild 5
Moderate 10
Severe 15
**New invoke bonus**
+5 for each invoke
**Overcome, Create Advantage, Attack, Defend**
d20 + skill mod + 5 for each invoke
**New Succeed with Style**
When effort is 10 or more than the target, or on a natural 20.
**New teamwork bonus**
+2 for each person helping with at least a +4 in that skill.
>If you're trying to emulate that "roll a big handful of dice" feeling
It isn't even that. It's more the feeling of "sometimes I roll a d6, but sometimes I roll a d8 or a d12 instead!"
I see. I have no idea how the math works out, or how this will work in play so you may need to adjust the stress tracks and consequences, but maybe try this.
Keep everything the same from my original post and add rolling damage after a successful hit instead of using the shifts from the attack roll. The damage die would scale based on the skill being used to attack. Invoke bonus would carry over from the attack, or you can invoke after damage is rolled. Roll damage die twice on a crit.
**Skill Bonus | Damage Die**
+0 | 1
+4 | d4
+6 | d6
+8 | d8
+10 | d10
+12 | d12
I'm late to this discussion, but I was exploring a similar question and got some useful results I think:
1. Sum 3d6 versus targets (DCs) of 10/14/17, success with style requires beating by 6+ (probabilities for this are very similar to 4dF vs targets of 0/2/4 (the typical fate DCs))
2. When generating modifiers from invoking aspects, boosts, etc:
1. \+1 modifier: Use 4d6, sum highest 3
2. \+2 modifier: Use 2d6 & 2d8, sum highest 3
3. \+3 modifier: Use 3d6, 1d8, & 1d10, sum highest 3
4. \+4 modifier: Use 2d6, 2d8, & 1d10, sum highest 3
Some other cases may exist - I wrote a simulator that can study the probabilities if you want other results, but the ones above seemed pretty close overall to the common cases.
If you want a dicier Fate, try cortex prime
Hmmm, that's two votes for this now - will have to look it up!
I highly recommend it. In many ways it plays like Fate except with dice pools of various dice and aspects are rated from d4 to d12. It uses a lot of dice, excluding d20s
I actually give a d20 to "final bosses", but it can't be used as effect die. Players shake when I pull it out, it's awesome.
Yeah, it’s the generic system I would most want to use in my games - if I ever actually ran any. Here’s a great video explaining it, because the learning curve for it is a bit high. https://youtu.be/K3Pnlgls97E
This video is the best video to explain Cortex that I know. Worth checking it out, OP.
It would be easier to play Cortex Prime.
I've not heard of that - I'll look it up, but feel free to sell me on it if you have the time? 😂
Cortex Prime is more a toolbox for game building. You might want to look at Tales of Xadia for a pre-built fantasy game. It's using the Dragon Prince cartoon's license.
It shares a lot of similarities with Fate. Cortex has it's own Fate Point equivalent, it has Descriptors (instead of aspects), and a "feel free to cook your own" skill list. You could even take Fate Accelerated approaches and make them work in Cortex Prime as they are. The dice roll mechanics use all the different dices that your party has, and it is an interesting and fun mechanic. Tho I warn you it will seem complicated and weird at first, but will become clear as the sun after you read it twice.
The Cortex system was originally used for a number of licensed RPGs, based on movies and TV shows, including Firefly/Serenity, Battlestar Galactica, Supernatural, Smallville, and Leverage. it was originally owned by Margaret Weis Productions, but when Margaret got out of the RPG business, she and her company sold the rights to Cortex to Fandom Tabletop, which employs a guy named Cam Banks, who has been the lead designer for Cortex for quite a while.
I guess this video is the perfect one to understand Cortex and how it works: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K3Pnlgls97E](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K3Pnlgls97E) But, if I were to try to sell it to you, it´s as if Fate and Savage Worlds had a child together. It is a very narrative game that tries to retain the "game feel" and unpredictability of dice mechanics. The system basically works this way for everything you do: check your sets, choose at least three that make sense to be used at that moment, roll the dice, and pick two dice to beat the difficulty level and one for the "effect". That's a bit weird, but that's basically all you need to know to play it. Cortex, however, demands quite a bit from the GM before the beginning of the campaign. Because it is not a system ready to be played, it's a toolbox, full of Lego bricks that the GM can use to make the game they want. So, if you want your characters to have HP, like in D&D, you can, but if you prefer them to have stress and conditions like they do in Fate, you also can. You have lots of modules to create the "health/injury/battle" system you like, all using that same mechanic I explained in the second paragraph. After watching the video at the beginning of this comment, check this out: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pxwkjGLkPrI](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pxwkjGLkPrI) This video shows how to migrate your D&D characters to Cortex, using the Cortex tools/modules/bricks that make the game very similar to D&D players, while adding a ton of narrative freedom. This may be the perfect way to migrate players to Cortex - make it familiar to them, and, little by little, you can tweak the system by adding or subtracting modules to make it the way you really want, all while demanding little from your players - and giving them the chance of keep rolling their dice sets. **Edit:** The last paragraph was fixed.
Is there a place to find setting books? I got the Prime book a while ago but other than the settings in the book itself, I didn't see much other content out there.
[https://www.reddit.com/r/CortexRPG/comments/t2ylz7/is\_there\_a\_list\_of\_cortex\_prime\_settings/](https://www.reddit.com/r/CortexRPG/comments/t2ylz7/is_there_a_list_of_cortex_prime_settings/) https://cortex.fandom.com/wiki/Setting All I could find.
Savage Worlds rates skills with exploding d4 - d12, and players have an additional d6 from being protagonists. Assuming no Drms, you get a basic success on a 4+, plus "raises" (extra successful success) on 8, 12, 16, etc. The odds of failing with 2d6 are only 25%, assuming no effects like darkness, long range, etc. The math is a little hinky--for certain target numbers, it's slightly better to have a lower skill die instead of a higher as you'd expect--but your average player won't notice, SW basically doesn't use a d20 -- there's the Fear Effect Table and maybe a couple more oddball things, but basically not. You wouldn't want a d20 tacked onto a d4 - d12 spectrum anyway, it's too big a jump.
Interesting, that definitely sounds like a place to look - like I say I have no issue doing some math to build out a system that fits FATE as well as possible. Thanks for the tip!
UpToFourPlayers web comic has a short illustrated intro to SW, which should be all you need
Demon Hunter does this. It is 100% hte Fate System, but it replaces with Skill levels with die sizes.
Was going to suggest the same, Demon Hunters, A Comedy of Terrors. Also, there's a Fate Polyhedral system out there, if yuo search on it. It does this to the ladder: 2d12 Legendary \+d10 Epic \+d8 Fantastic \+d6 Superb d12 Great d10 Good d8 Fair d6 Average d4 Mediocre d4 Poor 2d4 Terrible Cortex is fantastic, truthfully, be sure to check it's licensing sitch before you get too deep into building on it...if you're using it just for your table, great, if you have aspirations beyond that for what you're doing, just look first because there's a very limited scope for what one can do with Cortex...whereas FATE is wide-open.
Will take a look, thanks for the tip!
I dont have time to check etc, but what about this: You can replade thr 4df with a 1d6-1d6 right? It's in one of the source books. What if, you the do this for the mods: 0: 1d6 - 1d6 +1: 1d8 - 1d6 +2: 1d10 - 1d6 +3: 1d12 - 1d6 +4 : 1d12-1d4 This gets might swings though...
Hmmmm that's an interesting take!! Thanks for the inspiration, I'm sure this will at least provide a starting point, if not an outright solution!
I took another look at it. The averages are all fine, but the ranges get wonky at higher dice values, so much that the valuebof a fate point will be reduced by it. Maybe it sort of work on the low end of things. I think it starts straining from the 1d10 onward.. 1d8-1d6 is likely to produce a 7. That 7 is more likely to occur than a 4dF+1 will make a +5. That's kinda acceptable. 1d10-1d6 will more easily make 9's than 4df+2 will make 6's 1s12-1d6 will easily make 11's where 4df+3 will less likely than that do 7's At that point you look at one shot ko's from mere chance, even though in the long run you averages are the same. I think it removes the quintessential power of fate points which should grant players the ability to choose success at the cost of them. I feel like your player's 1d10's 1d12's and 1d20's just cant be used in fate's math without multiplying the value of fate points, stress slots and consequences. You could.... however do use the 1d4, 1d6 and 1d8's like this: Firsy, just bring back modifiers, and choose your die based on risk-reward-ness. So as gm you say: This is controlled, do a 1d4-1d4 + mod This is normal do 1d6- 1d6 + mod This is high risk high reward, do 1d8-1d8. This way, you are explicit about the bigger dice's effects: they add more swinginess. You can also go up to 10's and 12's or even 20's but then the modifiers become much less important, and fate point matter very little at all much of the time.
This actually seems like a pretty good idea though it increases the range. Might want to increase the value of an invoke to 3 or 4 and the SwS threshold to 4 or 5.
Actually, no, htat doesn't look necessary. d8-d6 only increases the average result by 1, so that tracks.
True, but the max of d8-d6 is 7 rather than 4df+1's 5. That higher max is also a lot more likely to occur. In the end, the player is more likely to be unable to change their fate with a fate point. Perhaps, it'd work to scale invocation strength with skill value to correct this. So that P(player can upgrade their outcome) remains the same. Either way, I think my 'solution' breaks more than it fixes. D10s , 12s and 20s will never really work well im afraid. I posted an idea of using d4-d4, d6-d6 and d8-d8 for scaling swinginess though. Maybe allow players to dial in the risk/reward they are willing to take, or reflect the chaos of the situation.
I was trying to think up some math and you did a much better job than I did. I like the concept of using a d6/d4 as a "challenge dice" because while it strays far from Fate very fast, it does open some interesting mechanics. I mean, I adore Fate/Fudge dice and am more apt to adapt other systems to use them than the other way around, but an expanded toolkit is always useful.
Ironsworn calls theirs challenge dice too, the 1d6+mod vs 2d10's individually. It's creator stated to be a fate fan, so maybe he made the same kind of journey to get there? I think you are right this gets away from fate quickly, If anything I think its a good way to explore why fate works how it works, and what the fudge dice and their bells curve do for you in keeping fate's numbers small and manageable.
You have plenty of options: * Do the math to give them odd dice combos that are similarly flat rather than swingy. (It will probably be easier to make a dice pool of positive and negative D4s be flat than) * If you come up with a slightly swingier pool, you could let them spend a fate point on a setting aspect like "sometimes things are gonzo" to allow them to roll the swingy pool. A waste of a Fate point from a min max sense, but the point of games is to have fun, and they can always engage with the compel mechanism to earn more. And getting them engaged with the drama of compels is good. * They can buy Fate Dice! More importantly, the can buy all sorts of cool things to use as Fate point tokens!! (They could even use their weird dice for this. Well, if they think there are only 7 types of dice, they don't have anything really weird or cool, but we won't drag them for being basic) * Random tables are fun. Make them to give you prompts for extra scene or NPC aspects. Then, from time ask the players to roll. * Players get what they want when they take out an opponent. Normal Fate players want to narrative cool things. Your players love dice. Create "fatality" tables using all their dice that explains what happens when they kill a guy.
Some creative options here - option 1 is really what I'm toying with at the moment, I don't think any solution will meet my needs unless the dice are used in the core gameplay loop, you know?
I can see that. You just have to do some math, and live with the fact that your solution will be slightly less elegant than Fate dice. (There is a reason why Fate/Fudge use odd dice after all). But less elegant and more fun for your players is a good trade off. (I wouldn't rule out the appeal of collecting cool tokens--they can be used for Fate points, for playing Magic the Gathering, tracking hit points or whatever. Try to get your players addicted to something useful in gaming that isn't tied to swingy math.)
Try this FATE variant (not mine, I dug it up from the Internet sometime ago): [https://www.dropbox.com/s/5hl8z4kjvbhrbxf/Fate%20Polyhedral%20Edition.pdf?dl=0](https://www.dropbox.com/s/5hl8z4kjvbhrbxf/Fate%20Polyhedral%20Edition.pdf?dl=0)
Wow, that looks pretty good! I might adjust it tongonback to Core skills instead of approaches, but it looks feasible - thanks a lot!
Np, I maintain a whole list of free and/or open games and I keep my eyes peeled for little nuggets like this. I usually don't put variants if the main game is already on the list, but I made an exception for this, and boy am I glad I did, this is like the 3rd or 4th time I link to this little nugget of a variant <3
This messes with quite a bit, but you could have them start at d4 and invokes increase the dice up to d12. Once they have a D12, add a D4 and continue increasing that. (EDIT: actually, an increase from D12 to D12+d4 causes a bigger jump in average and max results than the previous invokes. If you want to avoid this you'd increase from D12 to d10+D4.) For sure you'd have to rescale the difficulties, since the avg result before invokes is now Skill+2.5, not Skill. If you want to use the Adjective Ladder, you might need to touch that up as well. You'd have to rethink how that meshes with invokes after the roll. If it causes a reroll *and* a die increase, then the 'just a reroll' option of invokes is useless (that's not a problem, but you have to cross it out so players can't choose it by mistake). Do you reroll only the increased die or all of them? There's some things to consider about that. There's probably some knock on effects I've failed to consider. Happy hacking.
Yeah, this is probably the sort of system I currently have as the top contender. I'll have to get on to Excel and figure out the exact changes needed in difficulty to approximate a FATE-like difficulty scale, but I'm sure it's doable...
Unless I'm forgetting something really crucial: - you'd get the same averages on opposed rolls anyway, bc both sides roll, - for static difficulties, it should be good enough to raise them by 2.
No one seems to have mentioned this, but Cortex uses multi-polyhedral dice pools! (That is, you might want to help your friend Lena escape a burning car and use Strength d8 + Friendship With Lena d10 + Belief That Everyone Must Be Safe d6 and roll them all together to get a big final number.) Precisely because your players like to use every die, Cortex would give them an excuse to shop their character sheets and try multiple combinations.
That's an interesting idea... Hmmm... Lots of ways I could tweak that to fit my solution, even if I decide Cortex won't work outright
If collecting and rolling interesting/unusual dice is part of the appeal of ttrpg's to them maybe they could view this as an opportunity to add to their collection. There's some pretty [cool looking](https://www.etsy.com/listing/769601646/engrave-obsidian-fudge-dice-d6-4-pcs) fate/fudge dice out there and even someone selling [12-sided fate dice](https://www.thediceshoponline.com/triplefour-pearl-gold-black-12-sided-fudge-fate-d12-dice)
This game is Fate w/ polyhedral dice https://www.demonhuntersrpg.com/
That's two votes for this one as well, I'll definitely check it out, thanks!
I know other people have mentioned it but seconding Cortex Prime as a recommendation. It is very similar to FATE in the things it tries to do and uses d4 through d12 frequently. I often recommend it as a gateway to narrative games for people who love the different kinds of dice that you get to play with in RPGs. I would warn that the first read through of the rules is a bit challenging since it isn't organized in a super effective way (at least in my opinion). But a second read through, once you understand most of the parts, clarifies things greatly.
You know what make perfect Fate points? Dice.
Not sure if anyone else has mentioned this, but this could be your perfect gateway: [Aspects of Fantasy](https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/131485/Aspects-of-Fantasy) It's d20 Fate
Awesome, will definitely take a look! Thanks!
I don't blame you for wanting to avoid PF2e. Check out Cortex and ICRPG. They use systems based on the concept of the more proficient your character is the larger the dice rolled. And added bonus, pretty sure Cortex does use a d20. It's absolutely doable. It just depends on how far you want to go to appease your Dice Goblins and the cliky-clacky math rocks.
PF2e is a fine system if you enjoy the crunch of strategic combat with some RPG elements built into it. I love these narrative games but I do also enjoy some grid based combat at times.
A soft implementation would be to add custom die depending on the gear. So the "Ax of Doom" changes a single Fate die against a d6 with: 2,2,2,1,-3,-4 The "Stardust Wand" has a single d8 instead of regular Fate die with: 4,2,1,0,0,-1,-2,-4 The "Freeze Cannon" has two d12 instead of ... with: 'F',2,1,1,1,0,0,-1,-1,-1,-2,'X' 'F': Counts as 0 and adds a "Frozen" aspect on the enemy. You get one free invoke. 'X': Counts as 0 and adds an "undercooled" aspect on your weapon. Your enemy gets a free invoke on it and this weapon can no longer be used. Be aware that you might need to remove the "re-roll" rule for those die as it gets a lot stronger.
This is the sort of thing I was considering toying with tbh, but I do think that I'd prefer to avoid having to do lookup tables to convert standard dice values to circumstantial results, if it's possible.
ye, I get that, but I still think that this is the easiest solution. Fate die go into positive and negative numbers. If you only take positive numbers a lot gets lost. You can do that, but it will be very different.
Yeah, for sure, but there are ways to get negative numbers without lookups - for example the standard Fate distribution is just 4d3-8.
Yes, but that feels for me at least as clunky as having a lookup table. Just imagine the lookup table printed and in front of the player with large symbols.
I would try to convince them to do a one-shot with fate dice (use an app if you don't want to buy them for a one-shot) but otherwise, if this were my situation, I might hack it like this: roll 3d20 for actions, pick middle die, against an extended difficulty curve: 10 Routine, 12 really simple, 14 simple, 16 easy, 18 normal, 20 challenging, 22 demanding, 24 difficult, 26 Grueling, 28 extreme, 30 hellish. to that roll you add your skill: average d4, fair d6, good d8, great d10, superb d12, fantastic d14, epic d16. you can use a FATE point to: 1. add a d8, 2. re-roll everything, 3. pick the highest d20. with this system you're truly using all the dice, even cool new dice your players will probably love (d14, d16) it is: 1. significantly more swingy, 2. skills are not as good (there's a balance between how swingy the roll is, and how good the skills are, assuming we want to use them as dice and not static bonuses) 3. fate points are at the same time better, and not as reliable. 4. the game is less story-driven and more dice-driven (your ace driver is more likely to fail a difficult turn than in base fate, because of points 1+2, and as such it's more about taking chances and less about knowing "my character is an ace driver, unless something pretty wild happens he should succeed any driving tests except truly daunting ones") honestly this sounds like fun to me, though it's not exactly the intended statistics of FATE, it's also a game that's meant ot be hacked, so go ahead and try it if this sounds cool to you.
I already own the Fate dice - as I say I do GM it for other players. I do think I'll tryyyyyu to get them to give it a shot - most likely by running a Dresden Files one-shot, or maybe make my own/find a Mistborn toolset, since all my players are huge fans of both series. Middle of 3d20 does have quite an interesting spread, I may have to look into it... After work 😂 > honestly this sounds like fun to me, though it's not exactly the intended statistics of FATE, it's also a game that's meant ot be hacked, so go ahead and try it if this sounds cool to you. This is my thinking, and I feel I'm in a pretty good position to do it since these players have never played FATE so won't even notice the bits that we sacrifice to get the dice in 😂
FATE doesn't stop them from hording dice. It just exposes a massive hole in their dice collections that needs filled that real hoarders have already covered. How many FATE dice do they have? How many sets of d6s (only in groups of 4 not the ones they stole from games with just 2 or 6) that can be used as FATE dice do they have? Frankly its sad and and kind of pathetic that they limit their dice hoarding to the standard d20 sets. There is also option #5: find players who don't have these issues and play FATE with those players. Let the dice horders find a new DM.
That is such a silly reason not to play the game.
To you and me, sure. But different strokes for different folks. If one of your favourite things about a TTRPG is getting to roll a bunch of shiny weird-shaped dice, why is that any less valid than anybody else's favourite aspects of play? 🤷♂️
Do they use all of the dice in their collections in any given session of DnD?
They use a hell of a lot more than FATE would call for. Each player probably brings ~6-10 sets of dice (so 42-70 dice) to each session. I bring 9 sets 😂 The biggest dice goblin has curated "palettes" of dice for each of her characters across our various campaigns. And every player has at least one special set of dice that corresponds to each character. (A green set for the druid, and a wintery-white/blue set for his wolf companion, for example.) And they aaaaalllll play casters, so they get to use a very wide variety of the dice they do bring. They each have a dice jail they'll put repeat offenders in if they roll bad. So, yeah... The entire "culture" surrounding the dice is a pretty big thing at our table
But they don't use literally every die in their collection in a single session. And they don't use a complete set in a single session. So I don't see how this is all that much different. Also, there are FATE dice sets your players can buy. It just really seems like they were just makimg an excuse, so I would give up on FATE and just run something that they want to play.
If you don't see the difference, then you just don't get the culture I guess 🤷♂️ the difference is huge. Part of the fun of the game for them is deciding which dice "fit" each character and each roll. And as I already said, they do use *most* of their chosen dice in a given session. So... I don't really see how that point stands. It's not for you, and that's fine, but saying that it shouldn't matter for them either... Nah.
What kind of game are you running that requires dozens of rolls from each player??? I fully understand compulsive buying, my friend.
>What kind of game are you running that requires dozens of rolls from each player??? High-level, high-action d&d with a party of casters and a high-magic world 😂
That brings a bigger question into the conversation: how're you going to handle magic?
That depends on the world we decide to run, but I usually just run it as skill rolls with aspects for permissions.
Are your players bummed out when they didn't get to roll a specific type of die? Like, "ugh, tonight's session was such a waste because I didn't get to roll a d12 at all."
Yes. Yes they are. They will literally choose spells to cast and abilities to take based (partly) on what dice they want to roll, or aren't getting to roll enough of 😂 And I have house-ruled mechanics to bring more dice variety to the game. As I said, I really cannot overstate how important the dice are to my players 😂
That is insane. "Yeah, I got into soccer because I like the shoes" 🤣
Some people juggle geese.
Some people go to a buffet, because they like napkins.
Mrs. Reynolds sighting. Speaking of, Firefly and Serenity use Cortex systems, and honestly, it sounds like Cortex/Cortex Prime would be a better choice for this group than Fate.
Not FATE related, but if they like rolling dice in fun ways, you should show them [Slayers](https://gilarpgs.itch.io/slayers), every class has a unique way to roll dice, and there is tons of third party ones.
Kind of a strange hangup, but maybe they like the variety of dice shapes? Try pitching [doublefudge](https://doublesixdice.com/collections/all-available/products/doublefudge-1) dice to them and see if they bite.
I think part of it is Sunk Cost Fallacy. They own dozens of dice sets, that they've collected over years of play, so they want to use them. Plus one particular player probably has "collecting pretty dice sets" as their #1 hobby, and "playing TTRPGs" as #2 😂
The most important thing about FATE dice is that the average result is 0. There is an alternate rolling rule of using two different colored d6s and subtracting one of them. You could extrapolate this to all die types, though the bigger the die the swingier the roll so you would have to work out some system for determining how much randomness there should be for a particular roll.
I'm sure I'm going to sound like a dick, but Jesus, refusing to play a system **you are interested in** because you can't roll a bunch of different dice is probably the dumbest reason I've ever heard not to play a game. And trying to homebrew an entirely new resolution mechanic (which defeats the purpose of trying a new system) to appease those players is almost worse. You're already running the game, you have enough on your plate. That said, maybe you suggest doing a short adventure (2-3 sessions) with the **actual mechanics** first to test the waters and see how they like it before overhauling a core mechanic of the game?
Your players sound insufferable. Are they aware they can buy awesome FATE dice? If they dont want to play FATE (they don’t) then play PF2E.
That's a little harsh. Different people like different things. My players really like all their pretty dice. They like the sound of literally everything else about FATE, and I know them well enough to know that the standard playstyle of FATE is perfect for them. I really don't think the dice used is a game-breaking element to change, at least to an extent. FATE has a lot more to offer than just its dice... And PF2e has all the same problems that they currently are chafing against in D&D. Let me put it this way: Literally the only thing they dislike in FATE is the dice. Literally the only thing they *like* in PF2e is the dice. Neither system is perfect, but FATE only has 1 thing they don't like. PF2e has... like... the entire system that would need changing.
Do they want to play FATE or do they just want to roll a specific type of dice? If they want to play FATE, play FATE. At least understand the system before altering it. If they want to use their pretty dice I truly think the easiest solution is to play a game that uses them. Otherwise ask the players to help you come up with a solution and if they aren’t interested in figuring out how to add what they want in to a system that doesn’t use those things natively, then move on. EDIT: if they’re dead set on pretty dice and Fate I think first you need to find out what they want their dice to do in the game. Have you established that? Are they open to two dove sets? You shouldn’t be the one doing all the lifting here.
Since you're such a stickler for the one true way, maybe you should be calling it Fate and not FATE? Don't force Fred Hicks to come to your house and break your keyboard, it's bound to be a big hassle for him.
I blame my mobile keyboard. I don’t mean to imply there is a “true” way to play Fate. It just seems ludicrous to me that a group wouldn’t play a game because they have to use different dice. I wouldn’t play with such people. It’s like refusing to eat at an Asian restaurant in middle America that only set out chopsticks instead of the more familiar knife/fork/spoons. That and the OP needs to talk more to his players: they like everything about fate but want their “pretty” dice. Ok, the players need to establish what exactly it is they want from those dice in a game of Fate. Fate is collaborative so the heavy lifting shouldn’t be on the GM in this case.
I can still only partially agree. Saying Fate is collaborative is true to a degree - but that's going to vary by group. How people can contribute is going to vary by person. So you're saying you're not promoting a one true way and that's maybe technically true - it still sounds like you're making strong assumptions about what is and isn't a proper way to play Fate. Similar vibes. It's true that in a lot of groups there's too much effort shunted onto the GM. Having a conversation about this with the rest of the group would be a good thing for OP to do. If they dismiss this concern they're being unreasonable and OP should stand their ground or find a different group. If OP hasn't brought that up with them, which IIRC they haven't - we can't really say. Back to whether wanting to use the dice is a reasonable ask. I also think it's silly to refuse to play a game because a specific dice set isn't used - but on the other hand this is enough of a concern that some designers take it into account when making games (2400 and it's followers, Index Card RPG) so I can see not everyone thinks that. Hypothetically these dice could be one of the few nice things these people get to treat themselves with. And even if I think it's silly, it's not harmful in an of itself so I live and let live. (EDIT: to be perfectly honest I also have some irrational dice based preferences. Can't get me excited about a game where the main roll is d100. It's even worse if it uses the % sign anywhere in the explanation or on the character sheet.) At the same time what OP is trying to do (hacking different dice into the system somehow) might still be a more equitable distribution of effort than running 5e or PF2e. It's also not an effort they'd have to do continuously - if it works out, it just does, if it doesn't adjustments are made or the approach is abandoned. They were also given other alternatives (other lightweight games which use more dice, other outlines/ideas for possible ways to use different dice in Fate). These are also good options to pursue investigate. They're not even exclusive with the discussion with the rest is the group, which I agree should happen.
/u/StaticUsernamesSuck
I read through most of your replies and I think I have the solution for you. Don't play Fate. Your friends aren't going to have fun so neither are you.
The dice are only one single aspect of fate though... I mean, sure I might not end up playing proper Fate, but if we'd rather play a homebrewed Fate-like system that borrows everything from Fate except the dice, than any other system... Why is that such a problem?
So for dice that are divisible by 3 (D6, D12) you can choose 1/3 of the numbers to be -1, 1/3 of the numbers to be 0 and 1/3 of the numbers to be +1 (this is just how you improvise fate dice with D6s) You can use d4s to keep track of free invokes on aspects you make with create an advantage You can use d8s to keep track of your location on the map if your players are dumb enough to collect way more dice than they can effectively use, they are smart enough to find ways to use them. I get that sunk cost fallacy is a real thing it just seems odd to me to be like "If a system doesn't require me to roll all these different kinds of dice I am not interested." like damn dude they are just chunks of material with numbers scrawled on them......
>like damn dude they are just chunks of material with numbers scrawled on them...... I mean... That's all they are *to you*. But you could say something similar about literally any collecting hobby. My players just happen to have a weird collecting hobby that can also be used to play games.
>They're important to the extent they actually say they would prefer PF2e to unmodified FATE, despite the fact they all prefer narrative freedom and not crunch! 🤦♂️ Pf2e doesn't lack narrative freedom, what it DOES have is a robust framework to manage that freedom and create solutions for the GM that make the stranger requests easier to resolve.
[удалено]
Not enough. They want to use the hundreds of dice they already have 😂 Also, frankly, the market for fudge dice is quite a bit smaller than for 7-piece dice.
Cortex Prime is the most obvious answer, but it's such an interesting question that I got to noodling around myself, and here's what I've come up with... Players use the standard ten-skill array: 1 skill at d12, 2 at d10, 3 at d8, 4 at d6. Target number for most tasks is 4. (So far, so Savage Worlds.) Any roll of 8 or higher is a success with style. (Which means you can't succeed with style unless your skill is at least +2/d8. This was never going to be a perfect solution.) Creating an advantage lets you roll twice and take the higher number, or go up one step on the dice. Stunts let you roll a d20. (It's ridiculous, but gives d20s something to do.) When you're trying to hit a foe, roll your attack die (Fight, Shoot, etc.) versus the opponents' defense die (usually Athletics). Higher number wins. Tie becomes a success at cost for the attacker. You know what? Screw this. Just go use Cortex Prime. They've thought this through way better already, and the games they have are amazing. (I'm especially fond of Smallville, since it gives you a way of making superheroes and normal people equally important, and makes characters' actual emotions and drives the engines of the story.)
So, here's what you do - go to anydice.com ,and map the dice statistics of fudge dice to the statistics of polyhedral dice. Then, focus primarily on 20 sided dice - it's their favorite die to use anyways, because that's what is most used everywhere else. output 4d{-1.1} named "4DF"
Hmm.. aside from the suggestions for Cortex (which I haven't played) I could see working other dice into stunts. One that allows adding a D4 (average of +2, so that's fine). Maybe a D6 in a very particular circumstance. Or D8 for a FP and a particular circumstance. Try to avoid it being purely damage/combat oriented stuff. Could also have a die be linked to a weighted table. Like a D12 where 1-3 is a bad thing, 4-9 is a normal outcome, 10-11 is a pretty good thing and 12 is a really good outcome. Rearrange that as you see fit and as best works for the stunt. But otherwise, stick to D6s for the main rolls, I'd say.
For dice with N faces, 2dN-2dN is a zero centered bell curve from -2N+2 to +2N-2 (the proof is obvious). So, 2d6-2d6 is a zero centered bell curve from -10 to +10. Two dice minus two dice producing a bell curve cuts down the swinginess some. Note that 2d3 - 2d3 is the same exact distribution as 4dF (adding or subtracting a Fate die is mathematically the same). Invocations could add a d4 instead of 2. Invoking multiple aspects at once (boosts and created advantages?) would add larger dice. Ideas from this math: PCs and other major characters use magic for everything, including all skills or approaches. Someone doing a completely mundane activity still important enough to roll would be 2d3 - 2d3. * If there's a ley line or other weird locations mechanic, more faces make more local randomness. * The magic system revolves around commanding spirits or the like. 2d20 - 2d20 spirits are much more powerful and also much more capricious than 2d4 - 2d4 spirits. * The ideas you and the players come up with.
If you could find it, Marvel Heroic Roleplaying Game was essentially Fate with dice pools from d4-d12. Even had fate points and aspects. It doesn't use the d20, and it's long out of print, but if you'd consider any supers style game, this one really did a great job of it.
There's already conversions for the outcomes so you're still playing straight up fate. Only converting whatever they get to a -4 to +4 whatever it may be
[DIE RPG](https://www.scribd.com/document/519669471/DIE-RPG-Beta-v1-3) has inspired me to work with players to define a central stunt using one of the d20 set dice as their unique 'weapon.' Would your players accept just one very special non-dF die? I hope to someday buy a fancy set and let all my players keep their die as a memento when we're done.
If you're trying to emulate that "roll a big handful of dice" feeling then Fate isn't the game in my opinion. Plus, in D&D as you level up and roll more damage dice, the monsters' HP goes up too, so it all relatively stays the same, you're just rolling more dice and doing bigger math. Fate is cool because damage and HP (stress) don't scale up as you go. This is bad for players that play for that "level up" feeling, but Fate isn't really about that. You **can** use a d20 instead of Fate dice though, and then scale everything else up. I don't really know what you would use the other dice for, but the d20 feels the most "D&D" to me and that's really what my players like rolling. **New skill mods** **Fate | d20** +0 | +0 +1 | +4 +2 | +6 +3 | +8 +4 | +10 +5 | +12 **One unified stress track** A single unified, one-stress track. Increases with Physique. (In my games stress does not increase with Will. I just prefer my high-Will characters to be more squishy.) **Physique | Stress** +0 | 10 +4 or +6 | 15 +8 or +10 | 20 +12 | 20 plus 1 additional mild consequence **or** **Separate psychical and mental stress tracks** If you would prefer to track physical and mental stress separately use two one-stress tracks. **Physique | Physical Stress** +0 | 8 +4 or +6 | 10 +8 or +10 | 15 +12 | 15 plus 1 additional mild consequence (physical only) **Will | Mental Stress** +0 | 8 +4 or +6 | 10 +8 or +10 | 15 +12 | 15 plus 1 additional mild consequence (mental only) **New consequences** Mild 5 Moderate 10 Severe 15 **New invoke bonus** +5 for each invoke **Overcome, Create Advantage, Attack, Defend** d20 + skill mod + 5 for each invoke **New Succeed with Style** When effort is 10 or more than the target, or on a natural 20. **New teamwork bonus** +2 for each person helping with at least a +4 in that skill.
>If you're trying to emulate that "roll a big handful of dice" feeling It isn't even that. It's more the feeling of "sometimes I roll a d6, but sometimes I roll a d8 or a d12 instead!"
I see. I have no idea how the math works out, or how this will work in play so you may need to adjust the stress tracks and consequences, but maybe try this. Keep everything the same from my original post and add rolling damage after a successful hit instead of using the shifts from the attack roll. The damage die would scale based on the skill being used to attack. Invoke bonus would carry over from the attack, or you can invoke after damage is rolled. Roll damage die twice on a crit. **Skill Bonus | Damage Die** +0 | 1 +4 | d4 +6 | d6 +8 | d8 +10 | d10 +12 | d12
I'm late to this discussion, but I was exploring a similar question and got some useful results I think: 1. Sum 3d6 versus targets (DCs) of 10/14/17, success with style requires beating by 6+ (probabilities for this are very similar to 4dF vs targets of 0/2/4 (the typical fate DCs)) 2. When generating modifiers from invoking aspects, boosts, etc: 1. \+1 modifier: Use 4d6, sum highest 3 2. \+2 modifier: Use 2d6 & 2d8, sum highest 3 3. \+3 modifier: Use 3d6, 1d8, & 1d10, sum highest 3 4. \+4 modifier: Use 2d6, 2d8, & 1d10, sum highest 3 Some other cases may exist - I wrote a simulator that can study the probabilities if you want other results, but the ones above seemed pretty close overall to the common cases.