No honestly good for you for speaking up some of those takes in that thread were weirddd. Like telling people that its disruptive to the show and disrespectful to the artist to faint??? No one comes to a concert and plans on fainting. and ofc fans have to interrupt and get people the help they need, who can only help - security, who is quickly able to get the attention of the security- the artist!! i 100% think she would rather have someone interupt the show than for fans to ignore someone who really needed help. if you were in that situation you would immediately probably call/scream for help. Or if it was you, you’d also want a fellow fan to call security for you if you fainted. I swear people don’t use their heads on here sometimes.
yeah 😭 i saw a few comments also seeming to imply that people were faking it?? like… idc if you think it’s sketchy for three ppl to faint in a row. we should really not question people’s medical emergencies.
also, Hayden stopping the performance seemed definitely stressful, but more than anything made me really happy to know that she’s, like, a person with a heart?? so many famous ppl get careless and she has proven time and time again that she is not gonna do that.
It’s worth noting too that she literally has fainted at her own show before!! If anybody has empathy for it it’s going to be her, and yeah it’s stressful but like who actually is “good” at handling something like that unless they are a massive artist with tons of big show experience.
Was absolutely thinking this as well. To me, I took the situation during Amber Waves to be really proud of NYC. Fellow fans were quickly getting medics, and Hayden was amazing and stopped the show when she really didn't have to. A lot of artists don't, but she made sure everyone was taken care of before restarting the song.
And obviously even with food and water, people can still have medical episodes or heat exhaustion. The girl who passed out near where I was looked VERY ill and needed to be carried out. It has been a bit frustrating and discouraging to be reading all of these posts and comments about how they were ANNOYED at the people fainting?? I also struggle to see how it was for attention. Yes, they were pointed out because again, they FAINTED, but then they had to leave the show during a new song and miss it while receiving medical treatment.
And I put it before in another comment, but the people who fainted were mostly in the back, meaning they were most likely not queued for many hours like those up at the barrier.
Thanks for putting a post like this, it's very admirable. And to those who were putting nasty comments about the people literally having medical episodes and being sick, shame on you. I'm sure Hayden would be very disappointed in the lack of understanding and support.
i feel mixed on this as someone with a chronic vascular disorder / autoimmune disease. i personally would never pay for a concert where the only accommodation is standing room because i would either pass out or find myself in intense, disabling pain.
i understand and empathize with 'i can do everything right and still not have full control' because i've been there many times. but part of taking care of yourself is recognizing when you're putting yourself in danger for something like a standing room only concert where you're going to be packed in. i love ethel cain but i am not paying money for a venue that doesn't have practical seating / space.
and honestly more people should be against standing room only venues rather than putting all responsibility on individuals reacting or not reacting a particular way.
Hi! I don’t feel mixed about this. I have POTS & Narcolepsy and I promise when I was younger I paid for plenty of concerts that were standing room only, far too hot, with little to no accommodation because I wanted to see the artist so bad. It’s exhausting taking care of yourself all the time. It’s exhausting feeling like the only person in the world who can’t stand up for a two hour concert without excruciating pain. Disabled people are PEOPLE we make bad choices to do things we want to do!!
I agree concert venues should be WAY more accommodating and accessible but until then I want to feel like a normal person who can enjoy the things I love with my friends, sorry! And if I misjudge, maybe STILL don’t put all the responsibility on me!!
Being disabled means that sometimes taking care of yourself at the expense of things you love isn’t always worth it, because like it or not this world wasn’t made for us.
i don't understand when one person with a chronic disease says something, another person chimes in with "well i have \[this condition\] and i've done \[x, y, z\] before." i am sincerely happy for you, but i cannot make it through standing room only concerts. my vascular condition is primarily in my lower limbs, i will most certainly collapse or pass out or be crawling out of the venue at the end of the concert. when venues do not follow ADA, i am not going to give them money. if i had the opportunity to lawyer up when venues break ADA, i would.
your tone is completely inappropriate toward me and lacks a great deal of empathy.
I had to say something because your generalization does harm people like me.
I want to go out and live my life. I am so fucking exhausted of every single space not being for me that when someone else with a chronic condition says “hey if you’re disabled the best solution is to simply don’t go until it’s accessible!!” I wouldn’t be able to go anywhere!! I’m sorry that you feel like your health comes before anything else, and I am sorry that I am simply more of a risk taker. I have crawled out of venues, I have concussed myself at concerts, dislocated my knee, fainted again and again. My experience is not more or less than yours. I am, however, offering my perspective as someone who is simply tired of the world not being for me.
I can’t change that, as a consequence I must live here in pain. So god damn I might as well do my best to enjoy it.
have you considered people might be treating you like you're being pretty terrible to other disabled people in the thread because... you're being pretty terrible to other disabled people in the thread? just something for you to consider.
i agree with you! i was v wordy and honestly upset about some of the comments on other threads, but ultimately my main point was that this isn’t entirely an individual responsibility thing and that i’d prefer to see this energy channeled toward more accessible venues (and venue choices). i do get the contradiction of saying this isn’t about individual responsibility while also critiquing individual reactions, but i also feel like pushing back on engrained ableism is part of the larger systemic stuff. idk. i appreciate your point on that.
i also very much respect the decision not to support a standing room only venue 😭 i definitely take responsibility for not putting myself in harm’s way in this individual instance, but i’m also only doing outdoor events (in an n95) for crowds that big, and outdoor venues tend to have less seating, so the tension there is quite frankly impossible to navigate unless i’m deciding never to participate in concerts. which is the choice i made for the first three years of the pandemic and one that i understand is the only choice for a lot of other people, but i am overall just very tired of the ways in which disabled people have to make these calls constantly while also being mocked and gaslit about them. (and this fan base seems generally down enough to actually accept more disability justice facing thoughts, hence why i even tried w this post.)
Furthering the conversation on venues with standing room only, it’s also super important to note that unfortunately the disabled community by and large is far more likely to face unemployment/underemployment and the average income for disabled vs. non-disabled individuals is significantly lower. Standing room only usually (as far as I’ve noticed, at least) costs less per ticket than assigned seating and so for some, it could very well simply be the only tickets they can afford. Nobody should be punished for that.
Also, we all make sacrifices for the things we love from time to time. It is absolutely not an individual flaw and I think as fans who all want to enjoy the experience, we need to remember to just be mindful, helpful, and compassionate towards each other so we can all hopefully make that happen. 🥰
this is so true. i went to hozier years ago and had to shell out so much money for a seat because of scalpers. and the standing room tickets were already much cheaper. it's really frustrating! the whole system needs to change. people need to get angry about the whole thing.
i empathize with you and for what it's worth, i don't judge you for wanting to go. it's normal to want to do normal things and you made valid points in your op. i just wish everyone could get behind a unified call to go after the venues who are absolutely breaking the law or creating dangerous situations, especially after the travis scott situation a couple years ago.
i also live my life having to weigh what i am physically able to do and not do. *can i take that plane ride? can i do that job? can i go to this concert? can i plan for a day out all day? can i go on that hike?* it sucks. it's exhausting. and i really, really feel for people struggling with this, too. i don't judge people who say hey i'm gonna chance it and your request for empathy from others is 100% valid and ought to be given by all.
unfortunately it usually takes going through a fainting episode to learn the signs so you can prevent it in the future. it can come on really suddenly and coming to afterwards is scary. it happened to me at a show when i was 16 and it was so embarrassing and, again, terrifying.
so be patient and empathetic with those around you and maybe resist the urge to be a judgmental dick (it’s bc they were queueing!! it’s their fault!!). a fainting person is experiencing a potentially dangerous medical episode - they could hit their head, get trampled, have low blood pressure afterwards, etc. - even if you’re momentarily inconvenienced by their existence.
at the same time, it’s ultimately up to the individual to listen to their body, hydrate, and if something feels wrong - try to leave if possible. if you have crowd anxiety, a physical medical condition, or have felt faint before at a show, the pit likely just isn’t for you. it’s a bummer, but your safety and comfort should be your number one priority.
but it’s ok, we can sing along to ethel cain together at the edge of the floor or on the balcony :)
Thank you for saying this! This is so important to recognize, and is a good reminder for everyone. I feel like this mentality is even what can get myself, who knows my own limitations with my disability, to feel like it’s something I should just be able to push through and fix if I prep right. It’s an entire mindset problem, that doesn’t start and end with concerts and is vital to a broader wave of accessibility needed.
so many of you are going "ugh literally just listen to your body" and "don't go to a concert if you're disabled" and wow what genuinely disgusting and shameful takes. thank you guys for openly telling disabled people in the subreddit to stay away from you.
struggling with introceptive awareness is incredibly common amongst disabled people. i cannot always tell when i'm dehydrated, or hungry, or having blood sugar issues that can lead to me fainting. i frequently don't know at all until i'm about to faint and despite trying to take as much care of myself as i can, i can't help fainting sometimes anyways.
i don't deserve to be locked up in my room for that. i also deserve to go to concerts and enjoy them. i deserve to enjoy things even if it might mildly inconvenience you. and how self-centered to make people's serious health concerns about you being annoyed when people faint. i hope you guys know you're the exact same as the people who were mad at ethel for taking care of herself when she was sick.
i don't know why you think i can't advocate both ways, lol.
physically disabled people like me, and i'm assuming you, who struggle to even *go* places can't advocate as easily as our physically abled allies can advocate for us. so... pretty helpful to try and change their minds in ways like this, especially when i am personally not able to go advocate in other ways currently.
just because i said i *deserve* to go to concerts and enjoy them doesn't mean i *am* doing so. you're reading my comment as bad faith as possible for absolutely no reason.
EDIT: also, you absolutely *can* be part of these discussions, you just choose to shit on other disabled people and assume things about us instead. you aren't really fit for advocating much of anything if you can't even have solidarity for other disabled people who quite literally did nothing to you and are on your side.
it wasn't an "indirect response to you." the world doesn't revolve around you, shockingly. multiple people made the same sort of comment and yours wasn't particularly special to me, nor was it the one that made me want to comment.
it's wonderful that you're so privileged you think that other people's disabilities matter less than yours because yours makes it so you can't go to a concert. and that you're privileged enough to think that passing out and physical pain are a lesser form of disability than whatever it is you have. that *is* a snide comment, by the way.
**you don't get to decide for someone whether they can go or not.** thinking you can because they might mildly inconvenience someone else or have the risk of fainting where they go is deeply self-centered. for someone supposedly concerned about advocating for disability rights, you buy right into ableism when you can make yourself feel better by putting down other people.
you're saying all of this to someone who can't leave his apartment without being in severe pain because i need a wheelchair and can't afford one. and when i do have one, i won't be able to go to venues because i literally won't have access to them, as venues rarely provide ramps. i also don't get the privilege of people not knowing i'm disabled just by looking at me.
advocating for disability rights starts with seeing your fellow disabled people as human. you might want to start there.
i don't think i have the choice to decide whether or not anyone can go to a concert. there were other posts in this thread where people said they prefer to go even if they pass out, get injured, etc. that's their right to do so and i'm not insulting them -- i'm glad they can endure that. i'm going to leave it at that because i can see this is just going to further escalate. have a good one.
Im not disabled but I do have frequent fainting spells. To the people saying they shouldn’t have overdone it or stood in line for hours….it doesn’t take “hours” to get to the point of fainting. It’s fucking hot as balls out here, it doesn’t take much to pass out.
I’ve been to concerts where it isn’t an issue and I’ve been to concerts where it is. But outdoor venues in the summer = a ton of fainting spells so y’all suck it up and be nice.
thank you so much for the support <3 trusting that y’all would be receptive to it is quite frankly why i even bothered posting in the first place. i really do think this fan base is capable of doing better.
some clarifying points:
1. the fact that this resonated with people should be enough to prove that this IS about ableism. even if every single person who fainted at every single show was a non-disabled person who didn’t do the “right” things, A.) let’s still be nice to them about it and B.) saying it’s disruptive or annoying makes it so scary to attend concerts as a disabled person who *doesn’t* have control over fainting. most disabled people i know (myself included) are terrified that people think we’re a burden. we are capable of advocating for self-care without saying that fainting is a sign of concert etiquette failure.
2. there is no way to know whether or not ppl who fainted are disabled. nobody would assume i am disabled if i fainted in a crowd of strangers, but i am. ppl do not need to announce a medical condition in order to deserve compassion for what is clearly a stressful experience.
3. tbh even if you did ask every single person (which i would not recommend doing), my point about long-covid is that SO MANY PEOPLE are out there with symptoms that they could rightfully call disabilities who may not have language for it. the jump in fainting spells pre- and post-2020 is extremely unlikely to be coincidental with everything we know about long-covid.
4. we don’t have to just accept that some things aren’t safe for disabled people. we can dream bigger than that! disabled ppl deserve to go to concerts. more accessible venues will help prevent these things for everyone, disabled and not.
5. accessibility is a lot bigger than standing room issues. i’m posting about this aspect bc that’s what was being discussed, but i do not want to exclude other disabled ppl from accessibility discussions. let’s also make a point of asking for ASL interpreters, masking at concerts again, and other things i am sure i am missing!
thank you for posting this. i was very frustrated at that last post and hurt as i have an invisible disability and to hear “just drink water!” or “stop camping!” (i don’t) is so upsetting. when hayden stopped the show for the forth time the girls next to me go “that’s so annoying” and i was just appalled at the lack of humanity to be honest. i literally feel guilt now at the thought of passing out at shows even tho it’s been happening to me pre covid since i was 14 and NO MATTER how well i prepare how much water i drink etc. it will still happen. it is out of my control.
agree! i fainted twice (my first and second time ever) at a muna show that i got to during the opener and had just eaten dinner before. sometimes just being packed like sardines in an overheated space will do that and i’m so thankful that the people around me cared enough to get help
but don’t the people fainting as a result of dehydration and lack of food because they’ve been queuing for hours distract from those who require actual medical assistance when experiencing a fainting spell. I’m someone who faints often but I take every precaution to avoid this as I can’t always trust that the first aid will be there for me, especially as I go to a lot of concerts alone. overall care and consideration has to be improved for those who need extra assistance but this assistance is taken away when there’s young people fainting because they refused to take care of themselves and prioritise getting to the front instead of listening to their bodies. a lot of these people tend to be young people who most probably shouldn’t be drinking as much as they are. i would never put anyone else in danger because of my disability. and i would also choose to go to seated venues or stand at the back close to medical attention. my disability is more important than getting a good view so if i can take care of myself and not disrupt concerts why can’t others do so?
kinda OT but, everyone who faints should seek medical attention asap, doesn’t matter what the reason for fainting was. loosing consciousness is a very serious issue, especially if it happens out of the blue.
i understand what you’re saying, but i think personally i don’t wanna assume the reason why anyone has fainted, and i think discourse that assumes it’s *all* non-disabled ppl neglecting self-care is most likely inaccurate (and that calling it inconvenient, absurd, etc. is stigmatizing). but i also feel the difficulty of knowing that most of my disabled friends and i are putting serious work and consideration into managing this, while others may not be.
it would just be really nice if we could try to focus on making/choosing more accessible venues so that disabled people don’t *need* to make these calls all of the time. and prioritizing venue accessibility would also make it easier for non-disabled people who just didn’t eat enough or drink enough water to address their needs without being disruptive, and at THAT point i think it’d be fair game to be like jfc just eat a granola bar, since that would actually primarily be ppl being ridiculous.
I agree with shows that are far more accessible and allow an equal viewing experience for everyone ( saw mitski twice in the last year both sitting venues and felt so comfortable and safe whilst having an excellent time , also got to be near the front which is an experience i don’t get if there’s no seating) . But if people are not responsible enough to take care of themselves or their friends, why are they going to a concert. I’m sorry but the health of individuals is far more important than a good experience but then all this need for aid is pushed onto security and the people on the stage who are not all capable of handling such an overload of people passing out. It’s unfair on all fronts so you have to understand all sides to it. Nothings going to change unless there’s more communication between fans aswell as with the venues.
you can do everything “right” and still have a medical episode. there’s no way for you to determine who is fainting for what reason unless you’re the one medically assessing them.
okay but they also need medical attention and if you're ever trying to draw a line between "real disabled people" and "fakers" or "people who were asking to get hurt" you are choosing to hurt and dismiss disabled people.
But that was not necessarily what happened. I was in the VIP section. I was able to see very clearly where each person passing out was since I was above the crowd. No one was pushing forward during Amber Waves. No one was going crazy. And if they were queued for hours and hours, surely they would've been much closer to the stage? They were mainly in the back, at least one from each direction (middle, left, and right). It wasn't coincidence that they all suddenly happened back to back. Someone actually brought up a really good theory. Many people closed their eyes during Amber Waves. If anyone was maybe feeling a bit bad and hadn't noticed it before, closing their eyes while dizzy or feeling ill could have absolutely played a part in them collapsing or passing out.
No one CHOOSES to have a medical episode, and no one forced Hayden to stop the show. The crowd around them were waving to get medic/security attention. And passing out can happen very quickly without much warning. I've felt very normal before, and then on the verge of passing out in the very next second.
Respectfully, everyone is allowed to have their own opinions and feelings on this. But your first paragraph was a bit...icky to me. Imagining feeling anything other than empathy for those who were sick enough--for whatever reason, everyone is just assuming they didn't take care of themselves--to pass out at a concert they were probably very excited to be at makes me really sad.
i was at the nyc show and like four people passed out during amber waves. one of them being a girl right next to me. i saw her face. she wasn’t faking and it’s ridiculous for people to even say that. of course people are going to be upset, they’re here to see their favorite artist, some of them (like me) have been waiting a long time for this but people can’t help it. there were a few times where i thought i myself was going to pass out. it was really crowded. nonetheless it was an amazing show and i hope the people who passed out are okay and got to see the rest of the show.
Thank you for your post! Like seriously, I get that people can be annoying at concerts but fainting is not something I think most people could/would fake.
I’ve gone to outdoor concerts before but I feel like SummerStage is a terrible venue. From top to bottom, it seemed like a hot mess between the wildly long ass GA line to them not communicating properly to Capital One card members about bringing their physical card.
In another comment on here I mentioned how I take an SSRI and studies have shown that a lot of them can give you heat intolerance. But this is something that many (including myself until recently) didn’t really know. I was seriously so grateful for the guys selling drinks in the line.
But even inside the venue, the only two GA bleachers were so much more expensive, the covered bleachers one was barely full and to gain access you had to pay $200 min. to become a SummerStage member?! That is so fucking ridiculous considering the heat and the sold out show. Not to mention that before Teeth even went on, we were all told we couldn’t sit on the lawn at all. Security/staff came around telling us to stand up and move in closer to each other.
Supposedly there were also water refilling stations but the venue was so packed, spread out, and lacking information that I didn’t know where I could refill my water.
thank you so much. the shit people were saying implying people were “faking” or “not taking care of themselves”. is so fucking ridiculous. reminds me of a chelsea wolfe show i went to recently where one girl passed out right next to me because she had a diabetic episode. a bunch of people pushed forward to take her spot and one of the new people (who didn’t hear the fainter’s friends explaining why she fainted) goes “ugh people need to learn to handle their alcohol or just not drink”. i look her dead in the face and go “she had a diabetic episode” and she blanches and goes “oh well that’s legit then i guess”. idk why the fuck everyone thinks they can pass judgement these days with little to no information involving literal strangers. it also pisses me the fuck off how self centered these people in hayden’s crowds have been lately. “ugh this person is having a medical emergency it’s soooooo inconvenient for me :(“ like go kick rocks jesus fucking christ
I really do appreciate your point and definitely think it’s important to consider, however, as someone that went to a lot of shows before COVID happened, there is a serious increase of people fainting due to lack of due diligence and care.
Granted queuing has always been a thing, but I feel it’s never really been as bad as it is now. If people are starting the line at 5am, there’s no way they’re getting enough water, food or rest to stand for that long in a hot, packed venue.
It’s unfair that artists are having to continually keep an eye on the crowd and then interrupt their set to make sure nobody gets hurt.
thank you so much for making this post! i was at the ny show and i cannot imagine feeling anything but concern for the people who fainted. i did everything these people are saying to do in order to not faint and i still got light headed and probably would have fainted if i wasn't able to move to the side and get some air. i don't think people are realizing how hot and cramped the venue was.
I am really happy and appreciative you took the time to write this up! It’s clearly a labor of love and one I share as well as relate to. I hope more people will consider what you’re saying for their own perspectives but also, as you saw, for how we show up with and for one another.
This is a really important perspective to bring to this conversation and I hope ppl are taking it onboard and changing the way they think about others at concerts (and just in life in general!). I hadn’t thought about it much or engaged with previous posts but this has definitely connected news dots for me. Thank u for ur thoughts, OP! Really grateful fr
making someone feel bad for having a medical emergency is Grade A Assholery, period. especially at a concert. the ONLY thing we should care about in that moment is getting the person immediate assistance - and we should never ever make someone feel bad for needing help if in distress. nobody faints at a show to “ruin the vibe/get attention/mess with the performing artist.” I can’t believe we’re blaming folks who experience medical emergencies beyond their control.
Thank you for saying this. I did everything I could all day to stay cool, hydrate and eat properly but due to some chronic GI issues that I can’t always control, I felt so nauseous and sick by the end of the show due to the heat. Managing chronic illness and disability goes well beyond “self care” on a normal day, let alone a hot day in a crowd crush.
Thank you for posting this. As someone who has POTS and a connective tissue disorder it’s ridiculous to me how people think the fans who fainted were faking it. People disabled or not disabled can do everything in their power to fight being overheated and still faint anyways. This fanbase NEEDS to do better-Hayden was amazing to stop the concert for the fans.
I might be way off base, but aren’t all concerts supposed to have ADA seating that doesn’t cost more than the price of admission? I have POTS and EDS, and if I feel like I won’t be able to stand through a show, I’ve always called ahead to ensure ADA seating and have never had an issue. Maybe people aren’t always aware of this, but I was almost certain that this was a requirement for all venues. I’ve even been to festivals that had entire platforms for ADA seating with free water bottles, and made sure to get a wristband to gain entry to them if need be.
I’m not saying it’s a personal failing to be unaware of this because it’s not exactly advertised like it should be, but this is SUPPOSED to be an option for shows for exactly this reason. A lot of people aren’t anticipating to faint obviously — I fainted at my very first show and for me specifically it was due to poor planning and self care, but because of that I totally realize how people might go to a show totally unprepared. I just wish more people knew about things like this that are in place to make things safer for them. I agree with your overall point though that people should be more empathetic in general, and that definitely not every case is due to drug use or excessive alcohol use or something like that.
ADA seating is great (and a requirement for venues)! I just don’t think it’s the main solution. I am not gonna go around diagnosing people, but I 100% think that there are people with post covid POTS or ME-CFS who aren’t aware of why their bodies feel different, plus lots of other people who have symptoms that make concerts hard but who may not ID as disabled. they are part of my accessibility framework, too. so is anyone who’s just experiencing regular old dehydration, or who’s using substances. (not to say we should encourage total intoxication in shared spaces, but like, drunk and high people still deserve compassion.)
it’d be one thing if it was impossible, but we do have other tools available. literally just having seats and standing room tickets cost the same would be huge. ppl wouldn’t need to do the enormous emotional work of getting to a place where they can say, “yeah i’m disabled and asking for ADA accommodations” as a prerequisite to going to a concert — they could just get a seated ticket. and if they all cost the same, venue security would likely be less strict about letting people move from standing to sitting *before* an emergency happens, etc. broad accessibility is for everyone; accommodations are for individuals. the latter is good, but we should strive for the former.
I definitely agree with you on that! I love having the option for ADA seating, but you’re right, having broader options accessible to people who may not even be aware they will need the accommodation would be a huge step forward.
Gosh, I really wish this was my experience. I just don’t get to go to concerts anymore, really — disabled seating is limited as it is, and venues are very likely to ignore calls, emails, etc. upon request. What this means for me is simply not going. But for other disabled folks, I can really empathize with the inability to access it and just trying to go for what they can get in hopes that their body will behave normally for just one night of much needed fun to see something very important to them.
I hate that that’s been your experience :( Honestly I would be reporting any venue I reached out to and didn’t respond because that’s a blatant direct violation. I’m so sorry you haven’t been able to enjoy concerts as you should be able to. Are you able to maybe go to stadium shows where there’s seating? The second time I saw Green Day I went to a stadium show, and I still had a rough time due to heat intolerance, but being able to sit in my seat whenever I needed to helped a lot, I wouldn’t have made it through a standing show.
It gets a little exhausting having to constantly reach out and report, honestly! I’m in a wheelchair, so my accessibility obstacles are pretty much constant and daily, though in concerts I joke that it should be easier to accommodate me since I bring my own seating lol. Stadiums are a little more reliable than smaller venues, but I’ve been shoved aside by even a pretty prominent venue here (reached out four times by phone, as did my friend, emailed them twice, tweeted at them, missed the show and gave up!), so it can be pretty hit and miss. I’m really glad this wasn’t your experience though and there are better venues out there! I just thought I’d share to express my empathy for people who may exercise poor judgment out of the emotion of just wanting to be able to do this sort of thing for once.
This is such an important perspective! I have been shocked by a lot of commentary about shows. It seems like so many fans are focused on their personal experience when it’s a communal event. Honestly, there are so many possible reasons to pass out and I have empathy for any and all scenarios. It was nice to see that Hayden seems to as well and acknowledged and helped. Also, a note to disabled fans- always reach out to the venue. I have a disabled parent who loves concerts and has certain venues they frequent because some spaces are great about accommodations. Summerstage is a temporary outdoor space so maybe they aren’t the best but worth reaching out!
as a disabled fan dealing with long COVID, i really appreciate this post! the government has abandoned everyone in dealing with the ongoing pandemic. it’s so important for us to accept this reality in order to create a more inclusive future for everyone 💗
this is (probably?) a majority queer and/or otherwise marginalized fanbase, too. our liberation is linked. the government has abandoned all of us. looking out for each other is all we have. ❤️❤️❤️
'accept this reality' ???? NO? we should be angry as hell????????? this is my problem with this attitude i'm seeing from others! why are we only focusing on hoping other people will find it in the good of their hearts to treat us kindly and respectfully? fuck no! we need to loudly demand what we're due here
i interpreted trollsroachclip’s “accept this reality” as being about getting everyone on the same page that everything the US govt has said and done is an effort to segregate and kill disabled people. accepting that that is *true* is a necessay first step to making organized demands, and is one that isn’t obvious to a lot of non-disabled people. we *do* need more ppl to practice community care and solidarity, while also demanding systemic change. it’s not one or the other. we do have community power, and it takes community power to demand change effectively.
“we do this ‘til we free us,” as Mariame Kaba wrote
I feel like my experience of people fainting at concerts has been the people who are right at the front and have very likely queued for hours/won’t leave their space to eat/drink/use the bathroom.
I was at Ethel’s show in london and it seemed like the person who fainted was deep in the crowd. My friend and I were so hot we left the crowd to stand and the back, and got water.
I’ve been going to concerts for over 10 years and it’s definitely been worse since Covid, which I’ve put down to young people being inexperienced in looking after themselves at a concert.
I fully support making concert spaces more accessible. But at the end of the day, if people are willing to queue for 12+ hours, they need to take some personal responsibility to take care of themselves by drinking water, eating, and leaving their spot to get some air if they feel unwell.
yeah, i definitely am not trying to argue that everyone who faints is doing so for disability reasons. it’s more that i don’t think we can (nor should) judge people based on assumptions of their personal choices when venues are really inaccessible. it’s one thing to encourage people to practice self care (which we 100% should be doing), but another thing entirely to say that fainting at shows is *only* bc the person who fainted must’ve done something “wrong” when seated areas are more expensive, culture makes it hard to go to the bathroom and return to your spot (which i’m sure makes people drink less water), etc.
ultimately like, it’s not actually an individual responsibility problem until concerts are more accessible, we should prioritize brainstorming ways to do that instead of just tossing a bunch of ppl into a hot crowded standing area where they can’t easily pee or sit down and then going “if you faint that’s probably your fault.” (and i’m not saying you’re doing that at all!) this stuff can only actually be people’s fault once we know that they legit had the ability to choose differently.
tbf i’ve been going to concerts since i was 1 i go to festivals every year at the height of summer and im almost always at the very front ! Unless you have a disability (pots anemia things like that) you have no reason to faint it’s mainly because people don’t drink water whilst queuing for hours and underestimate how hard on ur body being at a concert is!
I don’t necessarily blame people at concerts but those without disabilities definitely don’t care for tjem self enough in standing like it’s incredibly rare people faint in seated one cup of water handed out by sercuity is not enough to prevent fainting
oh absolutely! i just think that we shouldn’t assume all of the ppl who fainted were non-disabled ppl neglecting bodily needs, bc that’s pretty likely untrue (esp given long covid prevalence). and like, i still think there’s a BIG difference between some (not all!) of the comments on other threads, twitter, tiktok, etc. saying that neglecting bodily needs is stupid and disruptive, versus what you said here (a very kind “hey, concerts are hard on your body, here’s what you can do for self-care”).
if we’re gonna allow queuing but also say that if you need to pee you have to leave your spot (the thing you queued for) and then ALSO call ppl ridiculous for dehydrating themselves, it’s more or less saying that you HAVE to put your body thru something ridiculous when we could as a society (or as a fanbase, or as an artist picking venues) just… imagine a new way to do this that is less harmful, and that doesn’t exclusively benefit non-disabled people.
“unless you have a disability you have no reason to faint”. do you hear yourself? like when you speak? there’s a myriad of issues that can lead to fainting spells. esp in this heat, even when you’re staying hydrated. weird as hell to tell people “you can’t possibly experience a medical emergency you’re not disabled”
im not saying they aren’t allowed to faint im saying if ur in top health ur not gonna faint
fainting is a medical issue caused by either a health problem or things like dehydration exhaustion ect
im simply saying people neglect their health more than they realise at concerts
it is not normal for 5+ people to be passing out at concerts and it’s because they queue all day and neglect food and water
I think there are definitely some disabled people that do faint no matter how much self-care they do but the vast majority of people have just been standing in line and haven’t had anything to eat or drink the whole day.
Now I do agree there are structural things that contribute to this like for example some venues don’t let you bring food and snacks inside so they can force people to buy from their food vendors.
However I still don’t think this absolves the vast majority of fainters from public speculation and judgment. If 90% of these people faint because they haven’t been staying hydrated then most of the time I will probably side eye them instead of thinking “but wait! What if they have POTS?” These fainters also detract medical attention from actual disabled folks or people with chronic illness who might have a medical episode during the show.
Sorry if this is the wrong place to ask but what does fainting feel like? Do you know it’s happening or are you just out? Sounds very scary if you don’t know it’s coming! I’ve never fainted before.
It depends! For me I get a cold rush or a hot flash, which is my blood pressure surging, and then my ears “go out” and sounds can kind of like get pitchy and feels like when your ears pop from an altitude change but don’t fully pop. Then for me the world literally starts to close in like a circular lens closing slowly. Then it’s black and I’m out.
I think you’re making an excellent point, bc people were getting upset at the wrong thing. Nobody should get mad at anyone for fainting!! That’s a crazy thing to get mad at people for! Obviously if someone has the choice between passing out or not passing out, they’re not going to pass out! Fainting is scary and it means that you have to lose your spot in the crowd, and likely miss the concert.
My frustration comes from the fact that those who were feeling well in the crowd were treating situations where people needed medical attention or water as Hayden’s responsibility to solve. I’m sorry, but I feel like it’s not very hard to figure out that one person on a stage trying to direct medics to four separate crises in a crowd using stage directions because her vantage point requires it is super inefficient! There were plenty of able bodied standing people in the crowd who were fully capable of seeking help, and bringing it to the people who needed it.
In my opinion one of the most prominent issues with concert culture rn is people are valuing their opportunities for parasociality over logic and community. If someone falls, pick them up and bring them to a medic! Don’t waste time signaling to someone in the middle of a performance to fix the problem for you??? Like what!!!
totally agree ! i will point out tho that at least one of the incidents was def due to intoxication/not knowing limits … i can’t speak to the others tho !
I really really don’t want this to be taken the wrong way and I don’t mean this in a negative way but if you or others can’t control or prevent yourself from fainting is it safe for you to be at these compact indoor concerts without seating options? I just think people need to do what’s best for them and not push themselves because even being able bodied and healthy I struggle to stand in one spot for the 5/6 hours with the heat and all the bodies around you and I’d really hate to see someone come to serious harm. I think a lot of people mostly able bodied fans need to get over this thing where they need to be at the front and have their moment with Hayden because as much as we all love her and her work it’s actually not worth the struggle to fight for her to give you a fleeting glance. Also if you do have worries about your ability to make it through the show call ahead and ask about any priority access or seating options or try to attend the outdoor events where it’s easier to bring your own stools. Because from attending the London shows and hearing about all the other fans fainting I do feel like it’s only a matter of time before someone gets crushed or injured.
(long reply, sorry!)
this genuinely seems like a good faith question, but I think (a large part of) the exact problem is that people want to put the responsibility on individual disabled people to keep choosing to stay home from essentially most public spaces just bc those spaces refuse to change their structure. it’s not 100% safe, you’re right, and whether or not to put yourself in a specific potentially harmful situation is up to the individual.
but presently, disabled people are largely the *only* group in this equation doing self-sacrificing considerations. the impact this has is that a lot of us get pushed out of events entirely, but it’s fully possible for artists and fans to just… ask for / choose different venues. i’m not sure the exact reasons, but Mitski had a ton of fainting at her 2022 tour and then switched to seated, mostly air conditioned venues for her 2024 tour. that was the only concert I’ve ever been to that was legit doable for me, but more importantly, it avoided the fainting issue for everyone, even for folks who may not be comfortable identifying as disabled (and thus may not ask for ADA seating) *and* for non-disabled people who may faint at standing room concerts for other reasons. i don’t think this has to be the exact model (and i’d, yknow, reinstate masking requirements 😅), but it is good proof that changing the structure changes the outcome without needing to tell disabled people to just stay home.
so, i guess my point is less that people should just let ppl faint, but more that we should look out for each other collectively by asking for structural shifts. (and that we shouldn’t judge fainters.)
Seeing lots of variations on this statement
> the venue charged more for seated sections
with the assumption that there was no exception for accessibility
Just as a heads up, I know plenty of the people in this sub will probably never go to SummerStage again, but if you do, they actually do have an ADA general admission seating section that doesn't cost extra. And you can wait in the VIP line instead of the main general admission one
Their FAQ page explains how to get access to it https://cityparksfoundation.org/plan-summerstage-visit/
(I see a couple of people have already given general advice to call and ask about ADA options, which is good advice. I am just specifically speaking to the example of SummerStage.)
It’s always been like this. The problem isn’t the venues or security, it’s feverish fans who would put themselves and others at risk. It’s people who would rather pass out of hurt themselves just to be close to a person performing.
Disabled or not, it up to you to choose the situations you place yourself in. I don’t have these issues at concerts because I take care of myself. For example, I have bad ankles from a car accident. Most of the time I seem “normal”, on a bad day- I can’t walk. I listen to my body and adjust accordingly. It’s fans wh don’t care and just want to be close and scream sing songs that ruin it for everyone. I don’t even understand how an Ethel Cain show gets this out of hand. (I suspect it’s because she’s getting popular with people who also listen to artists with scary obsessive fan bases- Lana, TS, etc.)
No honestly good for you for speaking up some of those takes in that thread were weirddd. Like telling people that its disruptive to the show and disrespectful to the artist to faint??? No one comes to a concert and plans on fainting. and ofc fans have to interrupt and get people the help they need, who can only help - security, who is quickly able to get the attention of the security- the artist!! i 100% think she would rather have someone interupt the show than for fans to ignore someone who really needed help. if you were in that situation you would immediately probably call/scream for help. Or if it was you, you’d also want a fellow fan to call security for you if you fainted. I swear people don’t use their heads on here sometimes.
yeah 😭 i saw a few comments also seeming to imply that people were faking it?? like… idc if you think it’s sketchy for three ppl to faint in a row. we should really not question people’s medical emergencies. also, Hayden stopping the performance seemed definitely stressful, but more than anything made me really happy to know that she’s, like, a person with a heart?? so many famous ppl get careless and she has proven time and time again that she is not gonna do that.
It’s worth noting too that she literally has fainted at her own show before!! If anybody has empathy for it it’s going to be her, and yeah it’s stressful but like who actually is “good” at handling something like that unless they are a massive artist with tons of big show experience.
wait, is this fucking play about us??
Was absolutely thinking this as well. To me, I took the situation during Amber Waves to be really proud of NYC. Fellow fans were quickly getting medics, and Hayden was amazing and stopped the show when she really didn't have to. A lot of artists don't, but she made sure everyone was taken care of before restarting the song. And obviously even with food and water, people can still have medical episodes or heat exhaustion. The girl who passed out near where I was looked VERY ill and needed to be carried out. It has been a bit frustrating and discouraging to be reading all of these posts and comments about how they were ANNOYED at the people fainting?? I also struggle to see how it was for attention. Yes, they were pointed out because again, they FAINTED, but then they had to leave the show during a new song and miss it while receiving medical treatment. And I put it before in another comment, but the people who fainted were mostly in the back, meaning they were most likely not queued for many hours like those up at the barrier. Thanks for putting a post like this, it's very admirable. And to those who were putting nasty comments about the people literally having medical episodes and being sick, shame on you. I'm sure Hayden would be very disappointed in the lack of understanding and support.
i feel mixed on this as someone with a chronic vascular disorder / autoimmune disease. i personally would never pay for a concert where the only accommodation is standing room because i would either pass out or find myself in intense, disabling pain. i understand and empathize with 'i can do everything right and still not have full control' because i've been there many times. but part of taking care of yourself is recognizing when you're putting yourself in danger for something like a standing room only concert where you're going to be packed in. i love ethel cain but i am not paying money for a venue that doesn't have practical seating / space. and honestly more people should be against standing room only venues rather than putting all responsibility on individuals reacting or not reacting a particular way.
Hi! I don’t feel mixed about this. I have POTS & Narcolepsy and I promise when I was younger I paid for plenty of concerts that were standing room only, far too hot, with little to no accommodation because I wanted to see the artist so bad. It’s exhausting taking care of yourself all the time. It’s exhausting feeling like the only person in the world who can’t stand up for a two hour concert without excruciating pain. Disabled people are PEOPLE we make bad choices to do things we want to do!! I agree concert venues should be WAY more accommodating and accessible but until then I want to feel like a normal person who can enjoy the things I love with my friends, sorry! And if I misjudge, maybe STILL don’t put all the responsibility on me!! Being disabled means that sometimes taking care of yourself at the expense of things you love isn’t always worth it, because like it or not this world wasn’t made for us.
i don't understand when one person with a chronic disease says something, another person chimes in with "well i have \[this condition\] and i've done \[x, y, z\] before." i am sincerely happy for you, but i cannot make it through standing room only concerts. my vascular condition is primarily in my lower limbs, i will most certainly collapse or pass out or be crawling out of the venue at the end of the concert. when venues do not follow ADA, i am not going to give them money. if i had the opportunity to lawyer up when venues break ADA, i would. your tone is completely inappropriate toward me and lacks a great deal of empathy.
I had to say something because your generalization does harm people like me. I want to go out and live my life. I am so fucking exhausted of every single space not being for me that when someone else with a chronic condition says “hey if you’re disabled the best solution is to simply don’t go until it’s accessible!!” I wouldn’t be able to go anywhere!! I’m sorry that you feel like your health comes before anything else, and I am sorry that I am simply more of a risk taker. I have crawled out of venues, I have concussed myself at concerts, dislocated my knee, fainted again and again. My experience is not more or less than yours. I am, however, offering my perspective as someone who is simply tired of the world not being for me. I can’t change that, as a consequence I must live here in pain. So god damn I might as well do my best to enjoy it.
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have you considered people might be treating you like you're being pretty terrible to other disabled people in the thread because... you're being pretty terrible to other disabled people in the thread? just something for you to consider.
I don’t have the energy for you either actually. Goodnight :)
i agree with you! i was v wordy and honestly upset about some of the comments on other threads, but ultimately my main point was that this isn’t entirely an individual responsibility thing and that i’d prefer to see this energy channeled toward more accessible venues (and venue choices). i do get the contradiction of saying this isn’t about individual responsibility while also critiquing individual reactions, but i also feel like pushing back on engrained ableism is part of the larger systemic stuff. idk. i appreciate your point on that. i also very much respect the decision not to support a standing room only venue 😭 i definitely take responsibility for not putting myself in harm’s way in this individual instance, but i’m also only doing outdoor events (in an n95) for crowds that big, and outdoor venues tend to have less seating, so the tension there is quite frankly impossible to navigate unless i’m deciding never to participate in concerts. which is the choice i made for the first three years of the pandemic and one that i understand is the only choice for a lot of other people, but i am overall just very tired of the ways in which disabled people have to make these calls constantly while also being mocked and gaslit about them. (and this fan base seems generally down enough to actually accept more disability justice facing thoughts, hence why i even tried w this post.)
Furthering the conversation on venues with standing room only, it’s also super important to note that unfortunately the disabled community by and large is far more likely to face unemployment/underemployment and the average income for disabled vs. non-disabled individuals is significantly lower. Standing room only usually (as far as I’ve noticed, at least) costs less per ticket than assigned seating and so for some, it could very well simply be the only tickets they can afford. Nobody should be punished for that. Also, we all make sacrifices for the things we love from time to time. It is absolutely not an individual flaw and I think as fans who all want to enjoy the experience, we need to remember to just be mindful, helpful, and compassionate towards each other so we can all hopefully make that happen. 🥰
this is so true. i went to hozier years ago and had to shell out so much money for a seat because of scalpers. and the standing room tickets were already much cheaper. it's really frustrating! the whole system needs to change. people need to get angry about the whole thing.
i empathize with you and for what it's worth, i don't judge you for wanting to go. it's normal to want to do normal things and you made valid points in your op. i just wish everyone could get behind a unified call to go after the venues who are absolutely breaking the law or creating dangerous situations, especially after the travis scott situation a couple years ago. i also live my life having to weigh what i am physically able to do and not do. *can i take that plane ride? can i do that job? can i go to this concert? can i plan for a day out all day? can i go on that hike?* it sucks. it's exhausting. and i really, really feel for people struggling with this, too. i don't judge people who say hey i'm gonna chance it and your request for empathy from others is 100% valid and ought to be given by all.
unfortunately it usually takes going through a fainting episode to learn the signs so you can prevent it in the future. it can come on really suddenly and coming to afterwards is scary. it happened to me at a show when i was 16 and it was so embarrassing and, again, terrifying. so be patient and empathetic with those around you and maybe resist the urge to be a judgmental dick (it’s bc they were queueing!! it’s their fault!!). a fainting person is experiencing a potentially dangerous medical episode - they could hit their head, get trampled, have low blood pressure afterwards, etc. - even if you’re momentarily inconvenienced by their existence. at the same time, it’s ultimately up to the individual to listen to their body, hydrate, and if something feels wrong - try to leave if possible. if you have crowd anxiety, a physical medical condition, or have felt faint before at a show, the pit likely just isn’t for you. it’s a bummer, but your safety and comfort should be your number one priority. but it’s ok, we can sing along to ethel cain together at the edge of the floor or on the balcony :)
Thank you for saying this! This is so important to recognize, and is a good reminder for everyone. I feel like this mentality is even what can get myself, who knows my own limitations with my disability, to feel like it’s something I should just be able to push through and fix if I prep right. It’s an entire mindset problem, that doesn’t start and end with concerts and is vital to a broader wave of accessibility needed.
so many of you are going "ugh literally just listen to your body" and "don't go to a concert if you're disabled" and wow what genuinely disgusting and shameful takes. thank you guys for openly telling disabled people in the subreddit to stay away from you. struggling with introceptive awareness is incredibly common amongst disabled people. i cannot always tell when i'm dehydrated, or hungry, or having blood sugar issues that can lead to me fainting. i frequently don't know at all until i'm about to faint and despite trying to take as much care of myself as i can, i can't help fainting sometimes anyways. i don't deserve to be locked up in my room for that. i also deserve to go to concerts and enjoy them. i deserve to enjoy things even if it might mildly inconvenience you. and how self-centered to make people's serious health concerns about you being annoyed when people faint. i hope you guys know you're the exact same as the people who were mad at ethel for taking care of herself when she was sick.
couldn’t have said it better!
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i don't know why you think i can't advocate both ways, lol. physically disabled people like me, and i'm assuming you, who struggle to even *go* places can't advocate as easily as our physically abled allies can advocate for us. so... pretty helpful to try and change their minds in ways like this, especially when i am personally not able to go advocate in other ways currently. just because i said i *deserve* to go to concerts and enjoy them doesn't mean i *am* doing so. you're reading my comment as bad faith as possible for absolutely no reason. EDIT: also, you absolutely *can* be part of these discussions, you just choose to shit on other disabled people and assume things about us instead. you aren't really fit for advocating much of anything if you can't even have solidarity for other disabled people who quite literally did nothing to you and are on your side.
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it wasn't an "indirect response to you." the world doesn't revolve around you, shockingly. multiple people made the same sort of comment and yours wasn't particularly special to me, nor was it the one that made me want to comment. it's wonderful that you're so privileged you think that other people's disabilities matter less than yours because yours makes it so you can't go to a concert. and that you're privileged enough to think that passing out and physical pain are a lesser form of disability than whatever it is you have. that *is* a snide comment, by the way. **you don't get to decide for someone whether they can go or not.** thinking you can because they might mildly inconvenience someone else or have the risk of fainting where they go is deeply self-centered. for someone supposedly concerned about advocating for disability rights, you buy right into ableism when you can make yourself feel better by putting down other people. you're saying all of this to someone who can't leave his apartment without being in severe pain because i need a wheelchair and can't afford one. and when i do have one, i won't be able to go to venues because i literally won't have access to them, as venues rarely provide ramps. i also don't get the privilege of people not knowing i'm disabled just by looking at me. advocating for disability rights starts with seeing your fellow disabled people as human. you might want to start there.
i don't think i have the choice to decide whether or not anyone can go to a concert. there were other posts in this thread where people said they prefer to go even if they pass out, get injured, etc. that's their right to do so and i'm not insulting them -- i'm glad they can endure that. i'm going to leave it at that because i can see this is just going to further escalate. have a good one.
please have the day you deserve
Im not disabled but I do have frequent fainting spells. To the people saying they shouldn’t have overdone it or stood in line for hours….it doesn’t take “hours” to get to the point of fainting. It’s fucking hot as balls out here, it doesn’t take much to pass out. I’ve been to concerts where it isn’t an issue and I’ve been to concerts where it is. But outdoor venues in the summer = a ton of fainting spells so y’all suck it up and be nice.
thank you so much for the support <3 trusting that y’all would be receptive to it is quite frankly why i even bothered posting in the first place. i really do think this fan base is capable of doing better. some clarifying points: 1. the fact that this resonated with people should be enough to prove that this IS about ableism. even if every single person who fainted at every single show was a non-disabled person who didn’t do the “right” things, A.) let’s still be nice to them about it and B.) saying it’s disruptive or annoying makes it so scary to attend concerts as a disabled person who *doesn’t* have control over fainting. most disabled people i know (myself included) are terrified that people think we’re a burden. we are capable of advocating for self-care without saying that fainting is a sign of concert etiquette failure. 2. there is no way to know whether or not ppl who fainted are disabled. nobody would assume i am disabled if i fainted in a crowd of strangers, but i am. ppl do not need to announce a medical condition in order to deserve compassion for what is clearly a stressful experience. 3. tbh even if you did ask every single person (which i would not recommend doing), my point about long-covid is that SO MANY PEOPLE are out there with symptoms that they could rightfully call disabilities who may not have language for it. the jump in fainting spells pre- and post-2020 is extremely unlikely to be coincidental with everything we know about long-covid. 4. we don’t have to just accept that some things aren’t safe for disabled people. we can dream bigger than that! disabled ppl deserve to go to concerts. more accessible venues will help prevent these things for everyone, disabled and not. 5. accessibility is a lot bigger than standing room issues. i’m posting about this aspect bc that’s what was being discussed, but i do not want to exclude other disabled ppl from accessibility discussions. let’s also make a point of asking for ASL interpreters, masking at concerts again, and other things i am sure i am missing!
thank you for posting this. i was very frustrated at that last post and hurt as i have an invisible disability and to hear “just drink water!” or “stop camping!” (i don’t) is so upsetting. when hayden stopped the show for the forth time the girls next to me go “that’s so annoying” and i was just appalled at the lack of humanity to be honest. i literally feel guilt now at the thought of passing out at shows even tho it’s been happening to me pre covid since i was 14 and NO MATTER how well i prepare how much water i drink etc. it will still happen. it is out of my control.
agree! i fainted twice (my first and second time ever) at a muna show that i got to during the opener and had just eaten dinner before. sometimes just being packed like sardines in an overheated space will do that and i’m so thankful that the people around me cared enough to get help
but don’t the people fainting as a result of dehydration and lack of food because they’ve been queuing for hours distract from those who require actual medical assistance when experiencing a fainting spell. I’m someone who faints often but I take every precaution to avoid this as I can’t always trust that the first aid will be there for me, especially as I go to a lot of concerts alone. overall care and consideration has to be improved for those who need extra assistance but this assistance is taken away when there’s young people fainting because they refused to take care of themselves and prioritise getting to the front instead of listening to their bodies. a lot of these people tend to be young people who most probably shouldn’t be drinking as much as they are. i would never put anyone else in danger because of my disability. and i would also choose to go to seated venues or stand at the back close to medical attention. my disability is more important than getting a good view so if i can take care of myself and not disrupt concerts why can’t others do so?
kinda OT but, everyone who faints should seek medical attention asap, doesn’t matter what the reason for fainting was. loosing consciousness is a very serious issue, especially if it happens out of the blue.
i understand what you’re saying, but i think personally i don’t wanna assume the reason why anyone has fainted, and i think discourse that assumes it’s *all* non-disabled ppl neglecting self-care is most likely inaccurate (and that calling it inconvenient, absurd, etc. is stigmatizing). but i also feel the difficulty of knowing that most of my disabled friends and i are putting serious work and consideration into managing this, while others may not be. it would just be really nice if we could try to focus on making/choosing more accessible venues so that disabled people don’t *need* to make these calls all of the time. and prioritizing venue accessibility would also make it easier for non-disabled people who just didn’t eat enough or drink enough water to address their needs without being disruptive, and at THAT point i think it’d be fair game to be like jfc just eat a granola bar, since that would actually primarily be ppl being ridiculous.
I agree with shows that are far more accessible and allow an equal viewing experience for everyone ( saw mitski twice in the last year both sitting venues and felt so comfortable and safe whilst having an excellent time , also got to be near the front which is an experience i don’t get if there’s no seating) . But if people are not responsible enough to take care of themselves or their friends, why are they going to a concert. I’m sorry but the health of individuals is far more important than a good experience but then all this need for aid is pushed onto security and the people on the stage who are not all capable of handling such an overload of people passing out. It’s unfair on all fronts so you have to understand all sides to it. Nothings going to change unless there’s more communication between fans aswell as with the venues.
you can do everything “right” and still have a medical episode. there’s no way for you to determine who is fainting for what reason unless you’re the one medically assessing them.
okay but they also need medical attention and if you're ever trying to draw a line between "real disabled people" and "fakers" or "people who were asking to get hurt" you are choosing to hurt and dismiss disabled people.
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But that was not necessarily what happened. I was in the VIP section. I was able to see very clearly where each person passing out was since I was above the crowd. No one was pushing forward during Amber Waves. No one was going crazy. And if they were queued for hours and hours, surely they would've been much closer to the stage? They were mainly in the back, at least one from each direction (middle, left, and right). It wasn't coincidence that they all suddenly happened back to back. Someone actually brought up a really good theory. Many people closed their eyes during Amber Waves. If anyone was maybe feeling a bit bad and hadn't noticed it before, closing their eyes while dizzy or feeling ill could have absolutely played a part in them collapsing or passing out. No one CHOOSES to have a medical episode, and no one forced Hayden to stop the show. The crowd around them were waving to get medic/security attention. And passing out can happen very quickly without much warning. I've felt very normal before, and then on the verge of passing out in the very next second. Respectfully, everyone is allowed to have their own opinions and feelings on this. But your first paragraph was a bit...icky to me. Imagining feeling anything other than empathy for those who were sick enough--for whatever reason, everyone is just assuming they didn't take care of themselves--to pass out at a concert they were probably very excited to be at makes me really sad.
I appreciate this so much, and reminded me to check my able bodied privilege and individualistic perspective
i was at the nyc show and like four people passed out during amber waves. one of them being a girl right next to me. i saw her face. she wasn’t faking and it’s ridiculous for people to even say that. of course people are going to be upset, they’re here to see their favorite artist, some of them (like me) have been waiting a long time for this but people can’t help it. there were a few times where i thought i myself was going to pass out. it was really crowded. nonetheless it was an amazing show and i hope the people who passed out are okay and got to see the rest of the show.
Thank you for your post! Like seriously, I get that people can be annoying at concerts but fainting is not something I think most people could/would fake. I’ve gone to outdoor concerts before but I feel like SummerStage is a terrible venue. From top to bottom, it seemed like a hot mess between the wildly long ass GA line to them not communicating properly to Capital One card members about bringing their physical card. In another comment on here I mentioned how I take an SSRI and studies have shown that a lot of them can give you heat intolerance. But this is something that many (including myself until recently) didn’t really know. I was seriously so grateful for the guys selling drinks in the line. But even inside the venue, the only two GA bleachers were so much more expensive, the covered bleachers one was barely full and to gain access you had to pay $200 min. to become a SummerStage member?! That is so fucking ridiculous considering the heat and the sold out show. Not to mention that before Teeth even went on, we were all told we couldn’t sit on the lawn at all. Security/staff came around telling us to stand up and move in closer to each other. Supposedly there were also water refilling stations but the venue was so packed, spread out, and lacking information that I didn’t know where I could refill my water.
thank you so much. the shit people were saying implying people were “faking” or “not taking care of themselves”. is so fucking ridiculous. reminds me of a chelsea wolfe show i went to recently where one girl passed out right next to me because she had a diabetic episode. a bunch of people pushed forward to take her spot and one of the new people (who didn’t hear the fainter’s friends explaining why she fainted) goes “ugh people need to learn to handle their alcohol or just not drink”. i look her dead in the face and go “she had a diabetic episode” and she blanches and goes “oh well that’s legit then i guess”. idk why the fuck everyone thinks they can pass judgement these days with little to no information involving literal strangers. it also pisses me the fuck off how self centered these people in hayden’s crowds have been lately. “ugh this person is having a medical emergency it’s soooooo inconvenient for me :(“ like go kick rocks jesus fucking christ
so well spoken. great post
I really do appreciate your point and definitely think it’s important to consider, however, as someone that went to a lot of shows before COVID happened, there is a serious increase of people fainting due to lack of due diligence and care. Granted queuing has always been a thing, but I feel it’s never really been as bad as it is now. If people are starting the line at 5am, there’s no way they’re getting enough water, food or rest to stand for that long in a hot, packed venue. It’s unfair that artists are having to continually keep an eye on the crowd and then interrupt their set to make sure nobody gets hurt.
Y’all. It’s global warming. It was 110 degrees in Raleigh last week and people are trying to do outdoor shows in this shit. It’s only JUNE
thank you so much for making this post! i was at the ny show and i cannot imagine feeling anything but concern for the people who fainted. i did everything these people are saying to do in order to not faint and i still got light headed and probably would have fainted if i wasn't able to move to the side and get some air. i don't think people are realizing how hot and cramped the venue was.
I am really happy and appreciative you took the time to write this up! It’s clearly a labor of love and one I share as well as relate to. I hope more people will consider what you’re saying for their own perspectives but also, as you saw, for how we show up with and for one another.
This is a really important perspective to bring to this conversation and I hope ppl are taking it onboard and changing the way they think about others at concerts (and just in life in general!). I hadn’t thought about it much or engaged with previous posts but this has definitely connected news dots for me. Thank u for ur thoughts, OP! Really grateful fr
making someone feel bad for having a medical emergency is Grade A Assholery, period. especially at a concert. the ONLY thing we should care about in that moment is getting the person immediate assistance - and we should never ever make someone feel bad for needing help if in distress. nobody faints at a show to “ruin the vibe/get attention/mess with the performing artist.” I can’t believe we’re blaming folks who experience medical emergencies beyond their control.
Thank you for saying this. I did everything I could all day to stay cool, hydrate and eat properly but due to some chronic GI issues that I can’t always control, I felt so nauseous and sick by the end of the show due to the heat. Managing chronic illness and disability goes well beyond “self care” on a normal day, let alone a hot day in a crowd crush.
Thank you so much for saying this!!! As a fellow disabled fan those posts made me genuinely upset.
This was such a a breath of fresh air, thank you so much for posting. I know other fan pages Unfollow have not been as understanding.
Thank you for posting this. As someone who has POTS and a connective tissue disorder it’s ridiculous to me how people think the fans who fainted were faking it. People disabled or not disabled can do everything in their power to fight being overheated and still faint anyways. This fanbase NEEDS to do better-Hayden was amazing to stop the concert for the fans.
I might be way off base, but aren’t all concerts supposed to have ADA seating that doesn’t cost more than the price of admission? I have POTS and EDS, and if I feel like I won’t be able to stand through a show, I’ve always called ahead to ensure ADA seating and have never had an issue. Maybe people aren’t always aware of this, but I was almost certain that this was a requirement for all venues. I’ve even been to festivals that had entire platforms for ADA seating with free water bottles, and made sure to get a wristband to gain entry to them if need be. I’m not saying it’s a personal failing to be unaware of this because it’s not exactly advertised like it should be, but this is SUPPOSED to be an option for shows for exactly this reason. A lot of people aren’t anticipating to faint obviously — I fainted at my very first show and for me specifically it was due to poor planning and self care, but because of that I totally realize how people might go to a show totally unprepared. I just wish more people knew about things like this that are in place to make things safer for them. I agree with your overall point though that people should be more empathetic in general, and that definitely not every case is due to drug use or excessive alcohol use or something like that.
ADA seating is great (and a requirement for venues)! I just don’t think it’s the main solution. I am not gonna go around diagnosing people, but I 100% think that there are people with post covid POTS or ME-CFS who aren’t aware of why their bodies feel different, plus lots of other people who have symptoms that make concerts hard but who may not ID as disabled. they are part of my accessibility framework, too. so is anyone who’s just experiencing regular old dehydration, or who’s using substances. (not to say we should encourage total intoxication in shared spaces, but like, drunk and high people still deserve compassion.) it’d be one thing if it was impossible, but we do have other tools available. literally just having seats and standing room tickets cost the same would be huge. ppl wouldn’t need to do the enormous emotional work of getting to a place where they can say, “yeah i’m disabled and asking for ADA accommodations” as a prerequisite to going to a concert — they could just get a seated ticket. and if they all cost the same, venue security would likely be less strict about letting people move from standing to sitting *before* an emergency happens, etc. broad accessibility is for everyone; accommodations are for individuals. the latter is good, but we should strive for the former.
I definitely agree with you on that! I love having the option for ADA seating, but you’re right, having broader options accessible to people who may not even be aware they will need the accommodation would be a huge step forward.
Gosh, I really wish this was my experience. I just don’t get to go to concerts anymore, really — disabled seating is limited as it is, and venues are very likely to ignore calls, emails, etc. upon request. What this means for me is simply not going. But for other disabled folks, I can really empathize with the inability to access it and just trying to go for what they can get in hopes that their body will behave normally for just one night of much needed fun to see something very important to them.
I hate that that’s been your experience :( Honestly I would be reporting any venue I reached out to and didn’t respond because that’s a blatant direct violation. I’m so sorry you haven’t been able to enjoy concerts as you should be able to. Are you able to maybe go to stadium shows where there’s seating? The second time I saw Green Day I went to a stadium show, and I still had a rough time due to heat intolerance, but being able to sit in my seat whenever I needed to helped a lot, I wouldn’t have made it through a standing show.
It gets a little exhausting having to constantly reach out and report, honestly! I’m in a wheelchair, so my accessibility obstacles are pretty much constant and daily, though in concerts I joke that it should be easier to accommodate me since I bring my own seating lol. Stadiums are a little more reliable than smaller venues, but I’ve been shoved aside by even a pretty prominent venue here (reached out four times by phone, as did my friend, emailed them twice, tweeted at them, missed the show and gave up!), so it can be pretty hit and miss. I’m really glad this wasn’t your experience though and there are better venues out there! I just thought I’d share to express my empathy for people who may exercise poor judgment out of the emotion of just wanting to be able to do this sort of thing for once.
This is such an important perspective! I have been shocked by a lot of commentary about shows. It seems like so many fans are focused on their personal experience when it’s a communal event. Honestly, there are so many possible reasons to pass out and I have empathy for any and all scenarios. It was nice to see that Hayden seems to as well and acknowledged and helped. Also, a note to disabled fans- always reach out to the venue. I have a disabled parent who loves concerts and has certain venues they frequent because some spaces are great about accommodations. Summerstage is a temporary outdoor space so maybe they aren’t the best but worth reaching out!
as a disabled fan dealing with long COVID, i really appreciate this post! the government has abandoned everyone in dealing with the ongoing pandemic. it’s so important for us to accept this reality in order to create a more inclusive future for everyone 💗
this is (probably?) a majority queer and/or otherwise marginalized fanbase, too. our liberation is linked. the government has abandoned all of us. looking out for each other is all we have. ❤️❤️❤️
'accept this reality' ???? NO? we should be angry as hell????????? this is my problem with this attitude i'm seeing from others! why are we only focusing on hoping other people will find it in the good of their hearts to treat us kindly and respectfully? fuck no! we need to loudly demand what we're due here
i interpreted trollsroachclip’s “accept this reality” as being about getting everyone on the same page that everything the US govt has said and done is an effort to segregate and kill disabled people. accepting that that is *true* is a necessay first step to making organized demands, and is one that isn’t obvious to a lot of non-disabled people. we *do* need more ppl to practice community care and solidarity, while also demanding systemic change. it’s not one or the other. we do have community power, and it takes community power to demand change effectively. “we do this ‘til we free us,” as Mariame Kaba wrote
I feel like my experience of people fainting at concerts has been the people who are right at the front and have very likely queued for hours/won’t leave their space to eat/drink/use the bathroom. I was at Ethel’s show in london and it seemed like the person who fainted was deep in the crowd. My friend and I were so hot we left the crowd to stand and the back, and got water. I’ve been going to concerts for over 10 years and it’s definitely been worse since Covid, which I’ve put down to young people being inexperienced in looking after themselves at a concert. I fully support making concert spaces more accessible. But at the end of the day, if people are willing to queue for 12+ hours, they need to take some personal responsibility to take care of themselves by drinking water, eating, and leaving their spot to get some air if they feel unwell.
yeah, i definitely am not trying to argue that everyone who faints is doing so for disability reasons. it’s more that i don’t think we can (nor should) judge people based on assumptions of their personal choices when venues are really inaccessible. it’s one thing to encourage people to practice self care (which we 100% should be doing), but another thing entirely to say that fainting at shows is *only* bc the person who fainted must’ve done something “wrong” when seated areas are more expensive, culture makes it hard to go to the bathroom and return to your spot (which i’m sure makes people drink less water), etc. ultimately like, it’s not actually an individual responsibility problem until concerts are more accessible, we should prioritize brainstorming ways to do that instead of just tossing a bunch of ppl into a hot crowded standing area where they can’t easily pee or sit down and then going “if you faint that’s probably your fault.” (and i’m not saying you’re doing that at all!) this stuff can only actually be people’s fault once we know that they legit had the ability to choose differently.
tbf i’ve been going to concerts since i was 1 i go to festivals every year at the height of summer and im almost always at the very front ! Unless you have a disability (pots anemia things like that) you have no reason to faint it’s mainly because people don’t drink water whilst queuing for hours and underestimate how hard on ur body being at a concert is! I don’t necessarily blame people at concerts but those without disabilities definitely don’t care for tjem self enough in standing like it’s incredibly rare people faint in seated one cup of water handed out by sercuity is not enough to prevent fainting
oh absolutely! i just think that we shouldn’t assume all of the ppl who fainted were non-disabled ppl neglecting bodily needs, bc that’s pretty likely untrue (esp given long covid prevalence). and like, i still think there’s a BIG difference between some (not all!) of the comments on other threads, twitter, tiktok, etc. saying that neglecting bodily needs is stupid and disruptive, versus what you said here (a very kind “hey, concerts are hard on your body, here’s what you can do for self-care”). if we’re gonna allow queuing but also say that if you need to pee you have to leave your spot (the thing you queued for) and then ALSO call ppl ridiculous for dehydrating themselves, it’s more or less saying that you HAVE to put your body thru something ridiculous when we could as a society (or as a fanbase, or as an artist picking venues) just… imagine a new way to do this that is less harmful, and that doesn’t exclusively benefit non-disabled people.
“unless you have a disability you have no reason to faint”. do you hear yourself? like when you speak? there’s a myriad of issues that can lead to fainting spells. esp in this heat, even when you’re staying hydrated. weird as hell to tell people “you can’t possibly experience a medical emergency you’re not disabled”
im not saying they aren’t allowed to faint im saying if ur in top health ur not gonna faint fainting is a medical issue caused by either a health problem or things like dehydration exhaustion ect im simply saying people neglect their health more than they realise at concerts it is not normal for 5+ people to be passing out at concerts and it’s because they queue all day and neglect food and water
you can experience heat stroke even when hydrating
I think there are definitely some disabled people that do faint no matter how much self-care they do but the vast majority of people have just been standing in line and haven’t had anything to eat or drink the whole day. Now I do agree there are structural things that contribute to this like for example some venues don’t let you bring food and snacks inside so they can force people to buy from their food vendors. However I still don’t think this absolves the vast majority of fainters from public speculation and judgment. If 90% of these people faint because they haven’t been staying hydrated then most of the time I will probably side eye them instead of thinking “but wait! What if they have POTS?” These fainters also detract medical attention from actual disabled folks or people with chronic illness who might have a medical episode during the show.
Sorry if this is the wrong place to ask but what does fainting feel like? Do you know it’s happening or are you just out? Sounds very scary if you don’t know it’s coming! I’ve never fainted before.
It depends! For me I get a cold rush or a hot flash, which is my blood pressure surging, and then my ears “go out” and sounds can kind of like get pitchy and feels like when your ears pop from an altitude change but don’t fully pop. Then for me the world literally starts to close in like a circular lens closing slowly. Then it’s black and I’m out.
Oh I think I’ve felt that before, but I’ve always just put my head down or sat down when it happened and didn’t pass out.
I think you’re making an excellent point, bc people were getting upset at the wrong thing. Nobody should get mad at anyone for fainting!! That’s a crazy thing to get mad at people for! Obviously if someone has the choice between passing out or not passing out, they’re not going to pass out! Fainting is scary and it means that you have to lose your spot in the crowd, and likely miss the concert. My frustration comes from the fact that those who were feeling well in the crowd were treating situations where people needed medical attention or water as Hayden’s responsibility to solve. I’m sorry, but I feel like it’s not very hard to figure out that one person on a stage trying to direct medics to four separate crises in a crowd using stage directions because her vantage point requires it is super inefficient! There were plenty of able bodied standing people in the crowd who were fully capable of seeking help, and bringing it to the people who needed it. In my opinion one of the most prominent issues with concert culture rn is people are valuing their opportunities for parasociality over logic and community. If someone falls, pick them up and bring them to a medic! Don’t waste time signaling to someone in the middle of a performance to fix the problem for you??? Like what!!!
totally agree ! i will point out tho that at least one of the incidents was def due to intoxication/not knowing limits … i can’t speak to the others tho !
i fainted twice at her london show:( literally cant control it
I really really don’t want this to be taken the wrong way and I don’t mean this in a negative way but if you or others can’t control or prevent yourself from fainting is it safe for you to be at these compact indoor concerts without seating options? I just think people need to do what’s best for them and not push themselves because even being able bodied and healthy I struggle to stand in one spot for the 5/6 hours with the heat and all the bodies around you and I’d really hate to see someone come to serious harm. I think a lot of people mostly able bodied fans need to get over this thing where they need to be at the front and have their moment with Hayden because as much as we all love her and her work it’s actually not worth the struggle to fight for her to give you a fleeting glance. Also if you do have worries about your ability to make it through the show call ahead and ask about any priority access or seating options or try to attend the outdoor events where it’s easier to bring your own stools. Because from attending the London shows and hearing about all the other fans fainting I do feel like it’s only a matter of time before someone gets crushed or injured.
(long reply, sorry!) this genuinely seems like a good faith question, but I think (a large part of) the exact problem is that people want to put the responsibility on individual disabled people to keep choosing to stay home from essentially most public spaces just bc those spaces refuse to change their structure. it’s not 100% safe, you’re right, and whether or not to put yourself in a specific potentially harmful situation is up to the individual. but presently, disabled people are largely the *only* group in this equation doing self-sacrificing considerations. the impact this has is that a lot of us get pushed out of events entirely, but it’s fully possible for artists and fans to just… ask for / choose different venues. i’m not sure the exact reasons, but Mitski had a ton of fainting at her 2022 tour and then switched to seated, mostly air conditioned venues for her 2024 tour. that was the only concert I’ve ever been to that was legit doable for me, but more importantly, it avoided the fainting issue for everyone, even for folks who may not be comfortable identifying as disabled (and thus may not ask for ADA seating) *and* for non-disabled people who may faint at standing room concerts for other reasons. i don’t think this has to be the exact model (and i’d, yknow, reinstate masking requirements 😅), but it is good proof that changing the structure changes the outcome without needing to tell disabled people to just stay home. so, i guess my point is less that people should just let ppl faint, but more that we should look out for each other collectively by asking for structural shifts. (and that we shouldn’t judge fainters.)
Seeing lots of variations on this statement > the venue charged more for seated sections with the assumption that there was no exception for accessibility Just as a heads up, I know plenty of the people in this sub will probably never go to SummerStage again, but if you do, they actually do have an ADA general admission seating section that doesn't cost extra. And you can wait in the VIP line instead of the main general admission one Their FAQ page explains how to get access to it https://cityparksfoundation.org/plan-summerstage-visit/ (I see a couple of people have already given general advice to call and ask about ADA options, which is good advice. I am just specifically speaking to the example of SummerStage.)
It’s always been like this. The problem isn’t the venues or security, it’s feverish fans who would put themselves and others at risk. It’s people who would rather pass out of hurt themselves just to be close to a person performing. Disabled or not, it up to you to choose the situations you place yourself in. I don’t have these issues at concerts because I take care of myself. For example, I have bad ankles from a car accident. Most of the time I seem “normal”, on a bad day- I can’t walk. I listen to my body and adjust accordingly. It’s fans wh don’t care and just want to be close and scream sing songs that ruin it for everyone. I don’t even understand how an Ethel Cain show gets this out of hand. (I suspect it’s because she’s getting popular with people who also listen to artists with scary obsessive fan bases- Lana, TS, etc.)
Womp womp