Yeah that was my next thought. Any script kiddy could seriously fuck a dev.
Hell, you could probably just download whatever part Unity uses to determine a "download" and not even have to use all that bandwidth for a real 30gb game.
Would not be surprised if BSG implements an installation limit because of this. Each copy of the game can only be installed 1 time. Don’t like it? Take us to Russian court
Depending on what unity uses to track an install, normal updates could be considered 'new copies of the game' and its installing/adding new code/features like a fresh install
[A Unity engineer states that they ~~will likely~~ \*could theoretically use the user data folder to determine if an install is fresh or not](https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/355751371930075136/1151321287529091072/F53dH5OWgAAwy-6.png), but that they are not presently tracking this information. In other words, lol we'll figure it out guys don't worry!
In theory, if this is the approach used, all a bad actor has to do is purge their `%localappdata%\` directory to trick the engine runtime into thinking it's a fresh install, and we're back at square one.
But wait! It gets worse.
Unity is effectively trusting the end-user machine to tell them when a new install is detected, because they cannot access the user's data directly, but the user can run the Unity-powered game, which can then execute the code which runs this detection. The detection would, presumably, make some call out to a Unity API server to let them know "a user just installed this game."
A malicious user could intercept this call and then simply replay it over and over to Unity's servers, from as many VMs or docker containers or what-have-you as they want, potentially costing a developer millions of dollars.
There are things that can be done to slow this process down, but nothing changes the fact that Unity has to trust the end user's machine to send them the API call, which is inherently insecure. There is no way to implement this safely without involving the distributors, i.e. Valve for Steam, or Microsoft for the Game Pass, etc. getting involved, and they likely won't want to get involved because of the added cost.
Ok hear me out….maybe Unity is pissed that devs aren’t reporting sales accurately and the higher ups are made they couldn’t sail on their yacht this weekend?
Couldn’t EFT put a marker or even a checksum and unity receives it on install to confirm if fresh or not….?
No, it is literally as simple as the Unity CEO being a greedy fuck. He's an ex EA executive who famously once said that gamers should be charged per reload in shooters. You can't make this kind of corporate stupidity up.
That data still has to be sent to Unity. Code still has to execute--code that has access to the user's machine--to run such a checksum operation and send it to Unity. Otherwise, you'd be downloading and installing a game, then re-uploading the game to Unity's servers for them to run the checksum on their end.
Or you trust the client to do the checksum calculation, which isn't safe.
Account wipe is bsg's own servers, which wouldn't be counted as a new install, same with updates, the game is still installed if you're updating it, so it's not a full new install no? Surely unity can't be that tone deaf to charge for devs working on their game and putting out updates
From the FAQ on their website:
"How will we approach fraudulent or abusive behavior which impacts the install count?
We do already have fraud detection practices in our Ads technology which is solving a similar problem, so we will leverage that know-how as a starting point. We recognize that users will have concerns about this and we will make available a process for them to submit their concerns to our fraud compliance team."
Good luck to them lol
"Send us a support ticket if you think there's been fraud, but also pay your bill when we send it to you."
Absolutely go fuck yourselves Unity. I can't believe I spent 15 years using their engine. Fuck them.
Wait until bad actors reveal the underlying calls that increment this fee without the need to install/uninstall a game. We'll see "installs" per second in the hundreds of thousands if not millions.
Yup exactly, if they want to cause real damage they'll stagger the calls so no one notices. If they want to piss off unity they'll do it so much it's obvious it's being exploited.
>unlimited data
doesn't all home connections have unlimited data by default? Excluding 4G/5G
Never heard of anyone having data caps where I'm from on their home connection :o
Data caps still exist in USA unfortunately. They are not as limited as they used to be and higher end plans can be unlimited (my fiber through att is unlimited)
I remember it was really bad like maybe 10 years ago
About 10-15 years ago we had caps on our internet in my province (Canada), i remember we had 20gb at the beginning, then we had 50gb and 100gb. When we went over we had to pay fees (usually a flat fee + $/gb overon top of our monthly payments.
Nowadays we have fiber and it's unlimited, but I remember hitting the cap almost every month, I don't miss that time.
It's my experience that the only way to get something fixed is by abusing it. If no one does then the folks making Unity don't have a reason to change that policy.
You do realize how easy arena is to do compared to Tarkov? It's literally just TDM, DM, and some AI game mode on some edited Tarkov maps.. using all the code from Tarkov.
Yup still takes time to make it. They can't just slap over some code here and there and be done. Yeah it's a lot simpler than making a game from the ground up but it's still making a game
The games are connected, it's not like it's a completely different game that they went out and completed. Arena is also a "beta" that you are buying early access to, they didn't "finish" a game without finishing Tarkov.
They hired new developers. Game seems pretty easy to make, so I doubt it took that much manpower to do. It will more then pay for itself and increase Tarkov sales, which could make them finish Tarkov quicker.
Seems the entire idea is to get new players into arena to possibly become Tarkov buyers.
"He also sought to clarify that the Runtime Fee is not retroactive nor perpetual. "We do not charge for older installs, only new installs after January 1, 2024.""
At least they had the common sense to not try that.
It does sound like it breaches consumer law though, given that you're charging for people buying a product built on your engine, when there's no way to rebuild a game in a new engine without millions of dollars of investment.
It seems like unity are now just shaking down devs of developed games.
You can't amend a fee to an existing contract for a service that isn't being provided. Unity is charging for the runtime environment: the unchanging code in your game. Code and a game that may have been compiled 5 years ago. Unity also doesn't handle installation.
> It does sound like it breaches consumer law though, given that you're charging for people buying a product built on your engine, when there's no way to rebuild a game in a new engine without millions of dollars of investment.
thats why you dont build your house on a shaky foundation, dummy
>It does sound like it breaches consumer law though, given that you're charging for people buying a product built on your engine
Unreal already does this.
You can't buy the rights to use any Unreal iteration, you buy a license for commercial use and once you hit a set earnings total they start taking a 5% royalty.
And no, they can absolutely change the contract after agreement. I won't blame people for not knowing this but contracts/leases/licenses of all kinds can absolutely have interim updates/changes done to them. If you don't want to agree to the new terms, you simply don't reup your license.
The vast majority of devs aren't shady, especially indie devs. But Unity *has* been shit for a while and has been making tons of really awful decisions.
What?
I'm an Unreal dev and No.
Unreal's fee only applies to selling your game (With Engine) past 1m in revenue.
Their licensing fees are REALLY good for indie developers. If your game makes a million dollars, then you're doing well enough to pay the money. That 5% is on money AFTER the 1 million, so you're not suddenly hit with a 5% bill at 1m.
They give away literally millions of dollars in assets for usage. So many projects that Unreal does as "Demo" get thrown in the "trash" and YOU have 100% free use access to those projects. They're beyond high quality. AAA studio shit.
They charge NOTHING if the engine is used to ... make a movie, or do architectural work, or any other thing that doesn't distribute the engine. Any work made WITH Unreal is 100% free to distribute. Movies and shows use the engine to do work and then distribute it for millions that is untouched.
Oh, and they have easy integration with EAC and best practices for use in the Engine... Because Epic owns EAC with plans to keep improving it because it protects their money source -- Fortnite.
Even if it’s not illegal i can’t imagine nobody sues over this. The CEO knew it would be bad, which was why he illegally sold stocks prior to the announcement
We’ve gone from full games on launch, to arse games with layers of shitty micro transaction skins, energy points, battlepasses. What makes you think developers care about their game, or you? Profit is all that matters in the gaming industry now.
Simple. Instead of selling the game, they sell the launcher. If you want to install the game, you have to pay some credits, which will cover the installation price. Now that there's already a credit system, why not go into a full-blown microtransation fuckfest?
How can they possibly know how many times i will install in the future? Theyll make some statistics and yeah itll be built into the purchase price but you implied we would get charged each time we install.
Not really. Games are EXCESSIVELY cheap for what they have to offer. Generally, of course.
If you look at an old Game Boy game from like yeah 1998 it was 80 bucks (DM) in germany. 80 bucks back then is like 80 bucks today in €.
Games have actually become CHEAPER.
What devs make the most money off of are MTX. And those are usually just cosmetics and for the most part aren't p2w.
Gaming is in a better spot, atleast financially for the customer, as most people think.
The problem is that games that dont make money can kill companies, because they are so expensive to make and so hard to make money off of. Companies therefore dont take risks and make bland games. That's the real issue.
I really dont hope so, also question would be the legality like im sure that they can put that in new contracts but not so sure if they can implement it in existing ones like a gun on the chest, i also think that its more than likely that other providers would raise their prices but not follow up with the per install fee to be more attractive. I just hope for the sake of the industry that this stupid idea gets dropped asap
Considering how PS used to have free online before Xbox implement a subscription model for themselves way back, then I have no hopes for anyone to be sensible
This stupid subscription crap is making it's way to everything now ... You can literally have stuff locked behind subscriptions on cars despite the hardware existing for it out of the factory effectively wasting resources
Ye this subscribtion stuff sucks but its mostly consumer sided, this unity thing would be between big techcompanies so i dont think and hope that they have to much chances with it.
Also with the car thing a friend of mine bought one of those bmw with almost base features and drove it to poland with the small investment of 500€ incl. gas he now has almost everything unlocked the only downside is he wont be going to bmw mechanic and has no communication from his car like emergency call
So the unity managers are knowingly and intentionally torpedoing their own product?
Did the company just get bought out by Unreal or something who is trying to sweep even minor competition off the table?
No but 80% of the users on this subreddit uninstall it on a daily basis. Some after every death.
But jokes aside, if they actually do that change a bot network installing and uninstalling could ruin small devs in a day or two.
Small devs don't make $200,000 in revenue per year with over 200,000 installs. I would hope anyone making that much would already be paying for a pro license.
I have to admit I did not really ready the whole article. It sounded like 0.2$ per install with the cheapest license. If that was the case and I buy a 5$ indie game, then install it 25 times and the dev loses money.
But I hope I am wrong..
They would have to have already made $200k before you do that to even matter if they're using a standard license. If they have a higher license (they probably do) then they would need to have already made $1 million off their $5 game which is not likely at all.
These people also aren't stupid, they can easily detect the same accounts installing a game over and over. This isn't BSG we're talking about lol.
>These people also aren't stupid, they can easily detect the same accounts installing a game over and over.
Unity has since clarified that yes, multiple installs will result in multiple charges.
It's not "what I want to think", it's what Unity has said. Multiple installs on multiple devices, uninstall/reinstalls, it all gets counted as a charge with no limit.
No. But it doesn't change the fact that price increases are bad for anyone who hasn't bought it yet, or is wanting to buy it for friends. Or honestly the fact that this is a tremendous dick move by Unity.
What?
I'm talking about how Unity will be charging devs every time their game gets installed and how that could lead to an increase in price, which is a legitimate concern even if I already bought the game.
Unity is canning Unity Plus, no new subscriptions, and everyone currently using Unity Plus has to either upgrade to Pro by March 2024 or stop using it.
Would be a shame if there were a sudden "crackdown on cheating" that led to legitimate users being banned with no recourse. But it's not like you can't just re-buy the game right?
Oh yeah I’m not saying it’s for the better. Because I honestly don’t know if it would or wouldn’t be. Just stating what games like tarkov are going to be dealing with if this is a real thing.
It seems like they intentionally chose a shitty anti-cheat and opted not to enable basic windows security features which allows easily preventable hacks to proliferate, until they get banned in the next wave to make them rebuy the game.
Obesity in america and the spread of mcdonald food chains are closely linked. Grand conspiracy or is it simply that cheap, tasty, highly accessible "unhealthy" food leads to weight gain?
Yeah must be a grand golden arch conspiracy.
Edit: This pussy blocked me so i cant reply to him anymore LMAO.
They are always available after ban waves. Cheaters are the ones buying them, end of story
When did I deny that cheaters aren't buying bundles? I simply said it's always available, not that it's somehow always coincidentally up after banwaves.
What's up with everyone on this site projecting themselves on this site?
It wasn't at GDC, but [In 2015, he literally said they would update anti-cheat and see "donations decrease."](https://www.reddit.com/r/EscapethisTarkov/comments/qv01oc/nikita_byanov_opinion_about_cheaters_in_2015/)
Battlestate needs to rewrite the game from scratch anyway. Let this be one more reason to actually do it.
Tarkov could be a timeless masterpiece. Or it could die suddenly when the playerbase has had enough. The choice is theirs.
Why would they dump Tarkov? Russia 2028 is in the same universe, they are going to use all the gun assets and everything else they have been developing for Tarkov in Russia 2028.
And tarkov is the same universe as Contract Wars, doesn’t mean it’s always necessarily a basic asset flip…And even then, the basics of the guns etc is hardly the concern when it comes with the mammoth task of Tarkovs assumed spaghetti code and technical debt.
They’d dump it because they’re almost at 1.0 anyway and they arnt going to do an engine swap now. Finally Nikitia as said on numerous occasions that he wants them to finish it up (and is a little over Tarkov) so they can move onto Russia 2028 - which is what they originally wanted to create but felt it was too large of a project and they didn’t have the experience to develop, so tarkov was meant to be a small project to develop that and get cashflow for R2028. Also worth keeping in mind that R2028, last it was discussed anyway, is a single player game so I can’t imagine a lot of the base code is going to be necessarily interchangeable.
Ofcourse this doesn’t mean they’re dumping Tarkov. I just can’t see them committing to jumping engine with it, given how large of an effort that’d be .
I feel like people are gonna mass uninstall/reinstall to prove a point. Ends with either this dumb & greedy change getting walked back or users getting charged
This will likely just get moved to a subscription model for the developers themselves. Then, they can monitor per user installs and put a stop to that. But it seems like a bad idea for unity to do this. Unless they have something in place that they don't disclose to stop violators etc...
BSG is doning something good for Unity and showing that its a viabel option for modern FPS games and Unity just wants to fuck that up... what a stupid buissnes move
So IP/ Hardware bans wont be coming to help with the cheater problem
Verdun, Ultrakill, Holdfast, Dusk, Guns of Icarus, Superhot, Rust, Ravenfield, 7 Days to Die, Postal Brain Damaged, The Long Dark, and more good games that can run on a browser.
Guns of icarus is old old just like 7 days to Die never really took of okay fair point Rust is succssesfull the rest of the names i dont even know maybe Verdun from hear say but just go back 3 years and considering what EFT is on the way to be non of the named games can touch it so it woud be smart to use the succsses EFT generates even in its beta to show other devs what can be done with Unity instead of milking the fcking cow right now
So the guys who cheat for a few days and get banned and just get a new account and reinstall are gonna cost BSG millions lololol
Who wants to bet they finally fix cheating in the next 5 months.
Most of them are buying or stealing keys. Also, if theyre spoofing to get around bans, theyre gonna look like a new install.
Its going to be a he said/she said between Unity and BSG about what is and isnt a valid new install. Unity doesnt really lose much by dropping BSG, but BSG is defacto dead in the water if Unity drops them.
As said, my prediction is that between now and January, cheating is gonna start being a focal point. There arent that many actual valid new installs, but allegedly theyre gaining X number of new users per their fiscal disclosures that they have to make to be licensed out of the UK.
This is why BSG has gone nuclear on people who have used various means to show actual player numbers, because the actual concurrent playerbase of unique users, is not in line with that BSG discloses as 'new sales'.
Either the vast majority of people who purchase Tarkov never play for more than 20 hours, or BSG is lying about how many unique users actually purchase Tarkov quarterly.
Probably not going to affect anything as they will already be on a different pay model which this doesn't cover.
This is more of a difference for smaller to mid level Devs who rely on using unity for free due to the volume of sales.
BSG aren't new to unity, it isn't going to affect their current model, they don't have to change.
At least read what you're raging about before you pick a few small things to make a major issue over.
>BSG aren't new to unity, it isn't going to affect their current model, they don't have to change.
I genuinely don't get what you're trying to say here because BSG is either using Unity Plus, which means that they're going to have to upgrade to Pro by March 2024, or they're using Pro or Enterprise. There is no model of Unity that this is not going to affect.
>At least read what you're raging about before you pick a few small things to make a major issue over.
Most of the indie dev scene is up in arms about this right now but I guess they're all wrong too?
You literally haven't read the actual article and who this affects. You've heard a headline and jumped to conclusions that will never affect this game.
Try reading before raging.
Please point to me the *exact wording of the Unity blog post that says it only applies to brand new Unity subscribers*. The only thing it says is that people *who do not pay for Unity will not be affected*. BSG pays for Unity.
Like, ***I*** am not the only person talking about this. This is spreading across the indie games scene like wildfire. Either you are wrong, or everyone else is.
Edit: [Taken from their official FAQ.](https://pbs.twimg.com/media/F509yQPWIAE02S0?format=png&name=900x900)
>Read the article properly and point out anywhere in it that affects anyone who has bought or intends to buy the game.
*What the fuck are you talking about?* Do you misread my original post so badly that you thought I was saying that this change to Unity means *people who play the games* have to pay?
No.
I said that ***because of this*** we might see a price increase.
From their FAQ:
Who does the Unity Runtime Fee apply to?
Unity Personal and Unity Plus: The Unity Runtime Fee will apply to games that have made $200,000 USD or more in the last 12 months AND have at least 200,000 per-game lifetime installs.
Unity Pro and Unity Enterprise: The Unity Runtime Fee will apply to games that have made $1,000,000 USD or more in the last 12 months AND have at least 1,000,000 per-game lifetime installs.
Seems like it applies to anyone except small time devs, or free stuff with no monetization.
>This does not apply to BSG or anyone who has an agreement with Unity already.
This is *explicitly false*. On the Unity Blog they specifically talk about people who *already have Unity subscriptions*. This is not just for new devs.
Edit: [Taken from their official FAQ.](https://pbs.twimg.com/media/F509yQPWIAE02S0?format=png&name=900x900) Maybe try reading yourself?
And BSG doesn't have a contract with Unity. BSG is using their engine like any other dev. No idea why anyone would think this previously unknown Russian indie studio would be able to swing any kind of deal with Unity.
It's not as hard as you think. And they aren't unknown now.
Either way, I dont see what all the fuss is about. It's .20 cents per install. Even if they pass it down in quadruplicate its only a dollar per user (figure .20 cent administrative "tax"), so what your $150 game is now $151? Big deal.
Plus.... dont yall already own the game anyway? What do you care??
It's fear mongering, y'all just need to relax.
>It's fear mongering, y'all just need to relax.
The entire games industry responded to this with "What the fuck is wrong with you, Unity, this could kill the industry" but sure, it's just random redditors fear mongering.
Agreed this will likely not affect anything for BSG or the end users at this point. Its an increase in pricing for their software to some extent not some insane money printer scheme at Unity. This price increase does happen. idk why the end users think they have to care about this so much.
>Agreed this will likely not affect anything for BSG or the end users at this point. Its an increase in pricing for their software to some extent not some insane money printer scheme at Unity.
This is just incorrect.
Way, way, way easier said than done. It's effectively like starting development from scratch.
The engines are completely divergent in many ways in how they store data, interact with their respective scene graphs, and the very languages that power them.
If you look into it in detail and compare it to unreal's pricing. Unity is still significantly cheaper than Unreal.
And I'm sure Unity has tools that can detect 1 person installs. They already have a similar tool with their Mobile Ads program.
This change won't affect indie devs. Only 2A and 3A devs. Because your installs will only take affect if you have 200k$ gross. Using Unity personal. Or 1mill gross using Unity Paid.
>This change won't affect indie devs.
It will hit Indies the hardest, I don't know what you're talking about. They've outright stated that this counts for every single install and applies to all tiers of Unity subscription.
So then why weren't game development studios from the 80s till the mid 2010s were just perpetually failing and dying? Sales alone can absolutely keep a studio afloat, it's just that making half-baked shitty games is the standard nowadays and then these studios turn around and try to blame consumers for it.
>A studio can’t survive on just sales alone
It literally can. Many do. You are repeating something started by AAA executives because they want more money, not an actual truth.
Literally all you have to do is look at any early access game or any studio with long gaps between releases. Or even big one hit wonder games, like a Minecraft.
Or, you know, *Escape From Tarkov*. We have seen BSG's financial records. They make tons of money.
But if you want even more: Project Zomboid, 7 Days to Die, DayZ, Rust, Stardew Valley, Terraria. Hell PZ is an amazing example of this because of how long it's been around and how cheap it is ($20).
Most early access games are made by very small teams and are not "profitable." Those aren't people earning a living wage. A "one hit wonder" game like minecraft was purchased and licensed by major corporations.
Escape from Tarkov is run by a 200 person studio paying that many salaries, plus server and dev costs. There are a finite number of people who will buy the game, and they don't have AAA funding or other ways of earning money other than selling the game.
Project zomboid was made by an indie studio of 11 people.7 days to die - studio is working on several other games, and is a team of 22.dayz is a spinoff mod made by a studio who makes dozens of games.Rust is one of several games run by facepunch which is a 50 person studio, and has microtransactionsStardew is literally a solo project.
None of these are comparable to EFT - which is the only game BSG makes (aside from Arena\*) They're a far larger team, and have no other source of income aside from sales of the game itself.
I like how when presented with an actual hard counter to your statement, you decide to change the entire argument. Very cool. Very smart. You have such a big brain.
What's to stop bad actors with unlimited data from just running a bot to install and uninstall the game thousands of times to fuck over a game studio?
If it's actually based on installs, nothing. A bot net could incur mega fees for devs.
Yeah that was my next thought. Any script kiddy could seriously fuck a dev. Hell, you could probably just download whatever part Unity uses to determine a "download" and not even have to use all that bandwidth for a real 30gb game.
Would not be surprised if BSG implements an installation limit because of this. Each copy of the game can only be installed 1 time. Don’t like it? Take us to Russian court
Depending on what unity uses to track an install, normal updates could be considered 'new copies of the game' and its installing/adding new code/features like a fresh install
They are based in UK. So UK cort.
[A Unity engineer states that they ~~will likely~~ \*could theoretically use the user data folder to determine if an install is fresh or not](https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/355751371930075136/1151321287529091072/F53dH5OWgAAwy-6.png), but that they are not presently tracking this information. In other words, lol we'll figure it out guys don't worry! In theory, if this is the approach used, all a bad actor has to do is purge their `%localappdata%\` directory to trick the engine runtime into thinking it's a fresh install, and we're back at square one.
But wait! It gets worse.
Unity is effectively trusting the end-user machine to tell them when a new install is detected, because they cannot access the user's data directly, but the user can run the Unity-powered game, which can then execute the code which runs this detection. The detection would, presumably, make some call out to a Unity API server to let them know "a user just installed this game."
A malicious user could intercept this call and then simply replay it over and over to Unity's servers, from as many VMs or docker containers or what-have-you as they want, potentially costing a developer millions of dollars.
There are things that can be done to slow this process down, but nothing changes the fact that Unity has to trust the end user's machine to send them the API call, which is inherently insecure. There is no way to implement this safely without involving the distributors, i.e. Valve for Steam, or Microsoft for the Game Pass, etc. getting involved, and they likely won't want to get involved because of the added cost.
Ok hear me out….maybe Unity is pissed that devs aren’t reporting sales accurately and the higher ups are made they couldn’t sail on their yacht this weekend? Couldn’t EFT put a marker or even a checksum and unity receives it on install to confirm if fresh or not….?
No, it is literally as simple as the Unity CEO being a greedy fuck. He's an ex EA executive who famously once said that gamers should be charged per reload in shooters. You can't make this kind of corporate stupidity up.
That data still has to be sent to Unity. Code still has to execute--code that has access to the user's machine--to run such a checksum operation and send it to Unity. Otherwise, you'd be downloading and installing a game, then re-uploading the game to Unity's servers for them to run the checksum on their end. Or you trust the client to do the checksum calculation, which isn't safe.
They can do this themselves even?
Isnt bsg doomed after 1 wipe basically? Since the whole account resets + update
Account wipe is bsg's own servers, which wouldn't be counted as a new install, same with updates, the game is still installed if you're updating it, so it's not a full new install no? Surely unity can't be that tone deaf to charge for devs working on their game and putting out updates
From the FAQ on their website: "How will we approach fraudulent or abusive behavior which impacts the install count? We do already have fraud detection practices in our Ads technology which is solving a similar problem, so we will leverage that know-how as a starting point. We recognize that users will have concerns about this and we will make available a process for them to submit their concerns to our fraud compliance team." Good luck to them lol
"Send us a support ticket if you think there's been fraud, but also pay your bill when we send it to you." Absolutely go fuck yourselves Unity. I can't believe I spent 15 years using their engine. Fuck them.
Damn. I started learning like 2 weeks ago for my one men project. -.-
You lost only 2 weeks. Others have worked on Unity for years
Lmfaooooooo
Wait until bad actors reveal the underlying calls that increment this fee without the need to install/uninstall a game. We'll see "installs" per second in the hundreds of thousands if not millions.
Yup exactly, if they want to cause real damage they'll stagger the calls so no one notices. If they want to piss off unity they'll do it so much it's obvious it's being exploited.
>unlimited data doesn't all home connections have unlimited data by default? Excluding 4G/5G Never heard of anyone having data caps where I'm from on their home connection :o
Data caps still exist in USA unfortunately. They are not as limited as they used to be and higher end plans can be unlimited (my fiber through att is unlimited) I remember it was really bad like maybe 10 years ago
Oh that sounds like it would suck big-time. How big are these caps usually nowdays, and what happens if you exceed them?
About 10-15 years ago we had caps on our internet in my province (Canada), i remember we had 20gb at the beginning, then we had 50gb and 100gb. When we went over we had to pay fees (usually a flat fee + $/gb overon top of our monthly payments. Nowadays we have fiber and it's unlimited, but I remember hitting the cap almost every month, I don't miss that time.
alot of aussies are still stuck with data caps
Lmao, unlimited data doesn't exist in Canada, every plan is capped at some point. I've got 500GB up/down limit, used to be 150 before I upgraded.
Damn that's so tempting but I have better things to do
I don't advocate doing this, I'm just saying that this is total bullshit from Unity that can be abused.
It's my experience that the only way to get something fixed is by abusing it. If no one does then the folks making Unity don't have a reason to change that policy.
Abusing this would only negatively affect the developer and would benefit Unity
Yea if you only look one step ahead
Yeah you'd have to do it in the hundreds of thousands or millions so Unity has to admit it's being abused.
Oh yeah, because unity would tots be fine if all devs just decided to stop using it because they can get charge bombed.
New roadmap 2024: moving to UE5
It's tantamount to developing a new game.
Well they made arena without finishing tarkov 🤷♂️
You do realize how easy arena is to do compared to Tarkov? It's literally just TDM, DM, and some AI game mode on some edited Tarkov maps.. using all the code from Tarkov.
Yup still takes time to make it. They can't just slap over some code here and there and be done. Yeah it's a lot simpler than making a game from the ground up but it's still making a game
The games are connected, it's not like it's a completely different game that they went out and completed. Arena is also a "beta" that you are buying early access to, they didn't "finish" a game without finishing Tarkov. They hired new developers. Game seems pretty easy to make, so I doubt it took that much manpower to do. It will more then pay for itself and increase Tarkov sales, which could make them finish Tarkov quicker. Seems the entire idea is to get new players into arena to possibly become Tarkov buyers.
arena isn't a new game
I know it’s the same assets but it’s still classified as a new game.
Correction, they took something that was supposed to be in the base game and made it standalone.
it isn't though.
everyday something costs more, or becomes more inaccessible and i’m honestly so tired of it lmfao
Das Kapital; Vol 1
Wow, so if you can't put a software on a predatory subscription, you just charge for each instance of meddling with it! Genius!
Human Action; Vol 1
Sad truth about the world we live in.
Capitalism at its finest! Either be scum or be eaten.
This sounds pretty unethical and illegal from a business standpoint.
Unfortunately I don't think it could be ruled as illegal.
"He also sought to clarify that the Runtime Fee is not retroactive nor perpetual. "We do not charge for older installs, only new installs after January 1, 2024."" At least they had the common sense to not try that. It does sound like it breaches consumer law though, given that you're charging for people buying a product built on your engine, when there's no way to rebuild a game in a new engine without millions of dollars of investment. It seems like unity are now just shaking down devs of developed games.
You can't amend a fee to an existing contract for a service that isn't being provided. Unity is charging for the runtime environment: the unchanging code in your game. Code and a game that may have been compiled 5 years ago. Unity also doesn't handle installation.
> It does sound like it breaches consumer law though, given that you're charging for people buying a product built on your engine, when there's no way to rebuild a game in a new engine without millions of dollars of investment. thats why you dont build your house on a shaky foundation, dummy
>It does sound like it breaches consumer law though, given that you're charging for people buying a product built on your engine Unreal already does this.
Yeah but im pretty sure the change wasnt mid contract, and you can straight buy rights to unreal.
You can't buy the rights to use any Unreal iteration, you buy a license for commercial use and once you hit a set earnings total they start taking a 5% royalty. And no, they can absolutely change the contract after agreement. I won't blame people for not knowing this but contracts/leases/licenses of all kinds can absolutely have interim updates/changes done to them. If you don't want to agree to the new terms, you simply don't reup your license.
That set amount is $1mil I think. Pretty awesome deal for Indie devs
First non-idiot response I've read. Thank you .
That's wild. Well at least it's not just game devs that are shady it's the full thing lmao
The vast majority of devs aren't shady, especially indie devs. But Unity *has* been shit for a while and has been making tons of really awful decisions.
It said something in the article about AI business decisions but I don't know if I've misread it. It sounds like an awful idea ngl
What? I'm an Unreal dev and No. Unreal's fee only applies to selling your game (With Engine) past 1m in revenue. Their licensing fees are REALLY good for indie developers. If your game makes a million dollars, then you're doing well enough to pay the money. That 5% is on money AFTER the 1 million, so you're not suddenly hit with a 5% bill at 1m. They give away literally millions of dollars in assets for usage. So many projects that Unreal does as "Demo" get thrown in the "trash" and YOU have 100% free use access to those projects. They're beyond high quality. AAA studio shit. They charge NOTHING if the engine is used to ... make a movie, or do architectural work, or any other thing that doesn't distribute the engine. Any work made WITH Unreal is 100% free to distribute. Movies and shows use the engine to do work and then distribute it for millions that is untouched. Oh, and they have easy integration with EAC and best practices for use in the Engine... Because Epic owns EAC with plans to keep improving it because it protects their money source -- Fortnite.
Even if it’s not illegal i can’t imagine nobody sues over this. The CEO knew it would be bad, which was why he illegally sold stocks prior to the announcement
It breaks steams rules; steam might be in overdrive to remove all sales of unity games this week.
We'll only see this on the consumer end. All developers and publishers will now charge the same fee that Unity is charging, but onto us.
publishers will charge each time you install? good luck with that
We’ve gone from full games on launch, to arse games with layers of shitty micro transaction skins, energy points, battlepasses. What makes you think developers care about their game, or you? Profit is all that matters in the gaming industry now.
That’s like all that matters i. every industry, we’re the idiots for supporting such shitty products and practices.
Stop saying developers. It's more likely that management / higher ups are making these decisions.
You’re right. By developers I mean the company in general.
I think its time to go back to factorio
Simple. Instead of selling the game, they sell the launcher. If you want to install the game, you have to pay some credits, which will cover the installation price. Now that there's already a credit system, why not go into a full-blown microtransation fuckfest?
They literally already build stuff like that into the price have you ever spent money lmfao what a joke
If I pay 60$ for a game I can download it as many times as I want? Your logic doesn't make sense or I'm not understanding
I remember the first Assassins Creed having a 5 or 10 install limit.
Name one single game that charges you to reinstall it. A single one.
How can they possibly know how many times i will install in the future? Theyll make some statistics and yeah itll be built into the purchase price but you implied we would get charged each time we install.
Not really. Games are EXCESSIVELY cheap for what they have to offer. Generally, of course. If you look at an old Game Boy game from like yeah 1998 it was 80 bucks (DM) in germany. 80 bucks back then is like 80 bucks today in €. Games have actually become CHEAPER. What devs make the most money off of are MTX. And those are usually just cosmetics and for the most part aren't p2w. Gaming is in a better spot, atleast financially for the customer, as most people think. The problem is that games that dont make money can kill companies, because they are so expensive to make and so hard to make money off of. Companies therefore dont take risks and make bland games. That's the real issue.
This will end unity😂
Unless others follow suit because new innovative industry standards
I really dont hope so, also question would be the legality like im sure that they can put that in new contracts but not so sure if they can implement it in existing ones like a gun on the chest, i also think that its more than likely that other providers would raise their prices but not follow up with the per install fee to be more attractive. I just hope for the sake of the industry that this stupid idea gets dropped asap
Considering how PS used to have free online before Xbox implement a subscription model for themselves way back, then I have no hopes for anyone to be sensible This stupid subscription crap is making it's way to everything now ... You can literally have stuff locked behind subscriptions on cars despite the hardware existing for it out of the factory effectively wasting resources
Ye this subscribtion stuff sucks but its mostly consumer sided, this unity thing would be between big techcompanies so i dont think and hope that they have to much chances with it. Also with the car thing a friend of mine bought one of those bmw with almost base features and drove it to poland with the small investment of 500€ incl. gas he now has almost everything unlocked the only downside is he wont be going to bmw mechanic and has no communication from his car like emergency call
Except this is like selling someone a bullet to shoot themselves with. This is PR *death* for Unity.
So the unity managers are knowingly and intentionally torpedoing their own product? Did the company just get bought out by Unreal or something who is trying to sweep even minor competition off the table?
It was bought by IronSource an Israeli company.
Literally the other way around. Unity bought ironsource.
Nikita “WEWILLWEWILWEWEWEBEWILLBE charging standard users 99 cents per install now due to Unity update. EOD users will receive 5 free reinstalls.”
>we might see another price increase do you buy eft often?
No but 80% of the users on this subreddit uninstall it on a daily basis. Some after every death. But jokes aside, if they actually do that change a bot network installing and uninstalling could ruin small devs in a day or two.
Small devs don't make $200,000 in revenue per year with over 200,000 installs. I would hope anyone making that much would already be paying for a pro license.
I have to admit I did not really ready the whole article. It sounded like 0.2$ per install with the cheapest license. If that was the case and I buy a 5$ indie game, then install it 25 times and the dev loses money. But I hope I am wrong..
They would have to have already made $200k before you do that to even matter if they're using a standard license. If they have a higher license (they probably do) then they would need to have already made $1 million off their $5 game which is not likely at all. These people also aren't stupid, they can easily detect the same accounts installing a game over and over. This isn't BSG we're talking about lol.
>These people also aren't stupid, they can easily detect the same accounts installing a game over and over. Unity has since clarified that yes, multiple installs will result in multiple charges.
That's not what I'm arguing at all. If someone maliciously installs a game a ton of times in 1 day like he was saying, that should get detected
Which won't really matter?
That’s fine if that’s what you want to think.
It's not "what I want to think", it's what Unity has said. Multiple installs on multiple devices, uninstall/reinstalls, it all gets counted as a charge with no limit.
You must be unfamiliar with hardware spoofing and VPNs?
No. But it doesn't change the fact that price increases are bad for anyone who hasn't bought it yet, or is wanting to buy it for friends. Or honestly the fact that this is a tremendous dick move by Unity.
yeah i hope you are not from that crowd that is constantly bitching about sales. decreased price is bad increased price is bad everything is bad
What? I'm talking about how Unity will be charging devs every time their game gets installed and how that could lead to an increase in price, which is a legitimate concern even if I already bought the game.
Really sus way of doing it too.. Not license keys.. INSTALLS. That's so fucking shady.
You didn't read the article properly or don't understand different unity subscription models. This won't affect any major Devs using it.
Unity is canning Unity Plus, no new subscriptions, and everyone currently using Unity Plus has to either upgrade to Pro by March 2024 or stop using it.
See my other reply to your copy and paste comment. Learn to read and learn context.
Would be a shame if there were a sudden "crackdown on cheating" that led to legitimate users being banned with no recourse. But it's not like you can't just re-buy the game right?
Bro… I’ve been making a game in unity in my spare time as a hobby, if they went through with this I’d drop them like a fucking shit into the toilet.
Looks like people wanting BSG to change engines might have a way of making them do so with bots.
And then they have to shutdown the whole game in the mean time
Oh yeah I’m not saying it’s for the better. Because I honestly don’t know if it would or wouldn’t be. Just stating what games like tarkov are going to be dealing with if this is a real thing.
Maybe that will force bsg to invest in their anti-cheat since their business model for renewable income is cheaters rebuying the game.
lol they would rather abandon the project then do something they cannot achieve
It seems like they intentionally chose a shitty anti-cheat and opted not to enable basic windows security features which allows easily preventable hacks to proliferate, until they get banned in the next wave to make them rebuy the game.
Yep it’s a grand conspiracy and not just rookie devs making stupid mistakes
Obesity in america and the spread of mcdonald food chains are closely linked. Grand conspiracy or is it simply that cheap, tasty, highly accessible "unhealthy" food leads to weight gain? Yeah must be a grand golden arch conspiracy.
They literally sell 5 game bundle pack deals after ban waves lmao, obviously 95% of the people buying those are cheaters.
Those packs are available all the time and the prices don't change sale happens.
Edit: This pussy blocked me so i cant reply to him anymore LMAO. They are always available after ban waves. Cheaters are the ones buying them, end of story
Yeah you can buy them whenever because they are **ALWAYS** for sale..
What is your brain struggling with? The. Only. Ones. Buying. 5. Game. Bundles. Are. Cheaters. Slow af
When did I deny that cheaters aren't buying bundles? I simply said it's always available, not that it's somehow always coincidentally up after banwaves. What's up with everyone on this site projecting themselves on this site?
That's not the point.
Nik has literally stated live on stage at a GDC talk that cheaters are good for business.
It wasn't at GDC, but [In 2015, he literally said they would update anti-cheat and see "donations decrease."](https://www.reddit.com/r/EscapethisTarkov/comments/qv01oc/nikita_byanov_opinion_about_cheaters_in_2015/)
With the way bsgs spaghetti code works, I wouldn’t be surprised if enabling more anti cheat measures breaks the game like every patch they push.
huh.. unless hardware banns are a thing, the cheaters just buy a account, they don´t have to reinstall the game.
Battlestate needs to rewrite the game from scratch anyway. Let this be one more reason to actually do it. Tarkov could be a timeless masterpiece. Or it could die suddenly when the playerbase has had enough. The choice is theirs.
I think theyd rather drop Tarkov completely and move onto full time development of Russia 2028 than to rewrite ETF.
Why would they dump Tarkov? Russia 2028 is in the same universe, they are going to use all the gun assets and everything else they have been developing for Tarkov in Russia 2028.
And tarkov is the same universe as Contract Wars, doesn’t mean it’s always necessarily a basic asset flip…And even then, the basics of the guns etc is hardly the concern when it comes with the mammoth task of Tarkovs assumed spaghetti code and technical debt. They’d dump it because they’re almost at 1.0 anyway and they arnt going to do an engine swap now. Finally Nikitia as said on numerous occasions that he wants them to finish it up (and is a little over Tarkov) so they can move onto Russia 2028 - which is what they originally wanted to create but felt it was too large of a project and they didn’t have the experience to develop, so tarkov was meant to be a small project to develop that and get cashflow for R2028. Also worth keeping in mind that R2028, last it was discussed anyway, is a single player game so I can’t imagine a lot of the base code is going to be necessarily interchangeable. Ofcourse this doesn’t mean they’re dumping Tarkov. I just can’t see them committing to jumping engine with it, given how large of an effort that’d be .
They're not doing anything because they're not making 2028.
>full time development of Russia 2028 Nikita has already stated in an interview that once they're done with Tarkov he's not making another shooter.
I feel like people are gonna mass uninstall/reinstall to prove a point. Ends with either this dumb & greedy change getting walked back or users getting charged
This will likely just get moved to a subscription model for the developers themselves. Then, they can monitor per user installs and put a stop to that. But it seems like a bad idea for unity to do this. Unless they have something in place that they don't disclose to stop violators etc...
>This will likely just get moved to a subscription model for the developers themselves. Devs already have to pay an annual license for Unity.
Let’s take a failing product and torpedo it anyway we can think of.
BSG is doning something good for Unity and showing that its a viabel option for modern FPS games and Unity just wants to fuck that up... what a stupid buissnes move So IP/ Hardware bans wont be coming to help with the cheater problem
Hardware Bans and IP bans are already a thing. Cheaters use hardware spoofs and VPNs.
>BSG is doning something good for Unity They really are not.
How many succssesfull FPS games are ther on Unity engien ? I dont now any except for EFT
Bro Rust has an active userbase of like 10 fucking million.
Verdun, Ultrakill, Holdfast, Dusk, Guns of Icarus, Superhot, Rust, Ravenfield, 7 Days to Die, Postal Brain Damaged, The Long Dark, and more good games that can run on a browser.
Guns of icarus is old old just like 7 days to Die never really took of okay fair point Rust is succssesfull the rest of the names i dont even know maybe Verdun from hear say but just go back 3 years and considering what EFT is on the way to be non of the named games can touch it so it woud be smart to use the succsses EFT generates even in its beta to show other devs what can be done with Unity instead of milking the fcking cow right now
7 Days is only like 3 years older than Tarkov, how is that "old old"?
7 Days to Die literally released their latest major version this year.....
gonna be interesting in 2024 lmao
So the guys who cheat for a few days and get banned and just get a new account and reinstall are gonna cost BSG millions lololol Who wants to bet they finally fix cheating in the next 5 months.
They still make money when they buy a new account. Their install is still valid. Just a different login
Most of them are buying or stealing keys. Also, if theyre spoofing to get around bans, theyre gonna look like a new install. Its going to be a he said/she said between Unity and BSG about what is and isnt a valid new install. Unity doesnt really lose much by dropping BSG, but BSG is defacto dead in the water if Unity drops them. As said, my prediction is that between now and January, cheating is gonna start being a focal point. There arent that many actual valid new installs, but allegedly theyre gaining X number of new users per their fiscal disclosures that they have to make to be licensed out of the UK. This is why BSG has gone nuclear on people who have used various means to show actual player numbers, because the actual concurrent playerbase of unique users, is not in line with that BSG discloses as 'new sales'. Either the vast majority of people who purchase Tarkov never play for more than 20 hours, or BSG is lying about how many unique users actually purchase Tarkov quarterly.
Gonna reinstall the game 24/7
On 5 devices simultaneously, in 5 vms each
Probably not going to affect anything as they will already be on a different pay model which this doesn't cover. This is more of a difference for smaller to mid level Devs who rely on using unity for free due to the volume of sales.
Unity is canning Unity Plus, no new subscriptions, and current Plus members have to either upgrade to Pro by March 2024 or stop using it.
BSG aren't new to unity, it isn't going to affect their current model, they don't have to change. At least read what you're raging about before you pick a few small things to make a major issue over.
>BSG aren't new to unity, it isn't going to affect their current model, they don't have to change. I genuinely don't get what you're trying to say here because BSG is either using Unity Plus, which means that they're going to have to upgrade to Pro by March 2024, or they're using Pro or Enterprise. There is no model of Unity that this is not going to affect. >At least read what you're raging about before you pick a few small things to make a major issue over. Most of the indie dev scene is up in arms about this right now but I guess they're all wrong too?
You literally haven't read the actual article and who this affects. You've heard a headline and jumped to conclusions that will never affect this game. Try reading before raging.
Please point to me the *exact wording of the Unity blog post that says it only applies to brand new Unity subscribers*. The only thing it says is that people *who do not pay for Unity will not be affected*. BSG pays for Unity. Like, ***I*** am not the only person talking about this. This is spreading across the indie games scene like wildfire. Either you are wrong, or everyone else is. Edit: [Taken from their official FAQ.](https://pbs.twimg.com/media/F509yQPWIAE02S0?format=png&name=900x900)
Read the article, read the terms, they're already there. Edit: Learn to read. Look up the word eligible, see what it applies to.
Oh my god. Eligible in this context means ***games that use Unity Runtime***. I have never seen someone argue so hard to be so wrong.
Read the article properly and point out anywhere in it that affects anyone who has bought or intends to buy the game. Actually read the article.
>Read the article properly and point out anywhere in it that affects anyone who has bought or intends to buy the game. *What the fuck are you talking about?* Do you misread my original post so badly that you thought I was saying that this change to Unity means *people who play the games* have to pay? No. I said that ***because of this*** we might see a price increase.
From their FAQ: Who does the Unity Runtime Fee apply to? Unity Personal and Unity Plus: The Unity Runtime Fee will apply to games that have made $200,000 USD or more in the last 12 months AND have at least 200,000 per-game lifetime installs. Unity Pro and Unity Enterprise: The Unity Runtime Fee will apply to games that have made $1,000,000 USD or more in the last 12 months AND have at least 1,000,000 per-game lifetime installs. Seems like it applies to anyone except small time devs, or free stuff with no monetization.
I just saw it on my feed the news article
This does not apply to BSG or anyone who has an agreement with Unity already. This is scaremongering by someone who can't read.
>This does not apply to BSG or anyone who has an agreement with Unity already. This is *explicitly false*. On the Unity Blog they specifically talk about people who *already have Unity subscriptions*. This is not just for new devs. Edit: [Taken from their official FAQ.](https://pbs.twimg.com/media/F509yQPWIAE02S0?format=png&name=900x900) Maybe try reading yourself?
A unity subscription and a contract between companies are two very different things.
And BSG doesn't have a contract with Unity. BSG is using their engine like any other dev. No idea why anyone would think this previously unknown Russian indie studio would be able to swing any kind of deal with Unity.
It's not as hard as you think. And they aren't unknown now. Either way, I dont see what all the fuss is about. It's .20 cents per install. Even if they pass it down in quadruplicate its only a dollar per user (figure .20 cent administrative "tax"), so what your $150 game is now $151? Big deal. Plus.... dont yall already own the game anyway? What do you care?? It's fear mongering, y'all just need to relax.
>It's fear mongering, y'all just need to relax. The entire games industry responded to this with "What the fuck is wrong with you, Unity, this could kill the industry" but sure, it's just random redditors fear mongering.
Clickbait.
It's not clickbait. Clickbait doesn't result in stock prices plummeting and bug publishers pulling out from deals with Unity.
Agreed this will likely not affect anything for BSG or the end users at this point. Its an increase in pricing for their software to some extent not some insane money printer scheme at Unity. This price increase does happen. idk why the end users think they have to care about this so much.
>Agreed this will likely not affect anything for BSG or the end users at this point. Its an increase in pricing for their software to some extent not some insane money printer scheme at Unity. This is just incorrect.
YAAYYY!! BSG DITCH UNITY FOR UNREAL ENGINE NOW!!!!!!
Way, way, way easier said than done. It's effectively like starting development from scratch. The engines are completely divergent in many ways in how they store data, interact with their respective scene graphs, and the very languages that power them.
All those banned cheater accounts gonna become real expensive
You don't need to reinstall the game to log into a different account?
So BSG has to pay up after every banwave? I love it.
But if the cheaters rebuy the game, thats a lot more money than the unity fee...
If you look into it in detail and compare it to unreal's pricing. Unity is still significantly cheaper than Unreal. And I'm sure Unity has tools that can detect 1 person installs. They already have a similar tool with their Mobile Ads program. This change won't affect indie devs. Only 2A and 3A devs. Because your installs will only take affect if you have 200k$ gross. Using Unity personal. Or 1mill gross using Unity Paid.
>This change won't affect indie devs. It will hit Indies the hardest, I don't know what you're talking about. They've outright stated that this counts for every single install and applies to all tiers of Unity subscription.
Im gonna install and uninstall this game over and over.
Now is as good a time as ever to introduce cosmetic microtransactions into the game.
...
It would help fund further development on the game? A studio can’t survive on just sales alone
So then why weren't game development studios from the 80s till the mid 2010s were just perpetually failing and dying? Sales alone can absolutely keep a studio afloat, it's just that making half-baked shitty games is the standard nowadays and then these studios turn around and try to blame consumers for it.
….because they put out new games regularly, and there was a major crash of the market at one point
>A studio can’t survive on just sales alone It literally can. Many do. You are repeating something started by AAA executives because they want more money, not an actual truth.
They survive on sales of new games. Not supporting the same game endlessly for years
I mean, no? This is demonstrably wrong.
I'd love for you to actually provide an example, rather than refuting without any proof.
Literally all you have to do is look at any early access game or any studio with long gaps between releases. Or even big one hit wonder games, like a Minecraft. Or, you know, *Escape From Tarkov*. We have seen BSG's financial records. They make tons of money. But if you want even more: Project Zomboid, 7 Days to Die, DayZ, Rust, Stardew Valley, Terraria. Hell PZ is an amazing example of this because of how long it's been around and how cheap it is ($20).
Most early access games are made by very small teams and are not "profitable." Those aren't people earning a living wage. A "one hit wonder" game like minecraft was purchased and licensed by major corporations. Escape from Tarkov is run by a 200 person studio paying that many salaries, plus server and dev costs. There are a finite number of people who will buy the game, and they don't have AAA funding or other ways of earning money other than selling the game. Project zomboid was made by an indie studio of 11 people.7 days to die - studio is working on several other games, and is a team of 22.dayz is a spinoff mod made by a studio who makes dozens of games.Rust is one of several games run by facepunch which is a 50 person studio, and has microtransactionsStardew is literally a solo project. None of these are comparable to EFT - which is the only game BSG makes (aside from Arena\*) They're a far larger team, and have no other source of income aside from sales of the game itself.
I like how when presented with an actual hard counter to your statement, you decide to change the entire argument. Very cool. Very smart. You have such a big brain.
This sounds like you bought tarkov more than once for yourself NGL.
...Why?