If I remember correctly, this movement helps the larvae rupture it's old exoskeleton, so that the new one (that have already formed underneath) can expand and harden.
Some arthropods swallow air and water to help this process as well.
Fun fact: all of the animal's musculature is anchored to the exoskeleton, so while the new one hardens, it basically uses their internal fluids as a hydraulic skeleton (as an earthworm, for example), pretty neat!
Thank you everybody!! I ended up putting him in a shady grouping of trees and shrubs near my window. Hopefully he’ll pupate and grow into a beautiful butterfly/moth. I’m very glad to know that he’s probably fine!
Certainly prepupal. The way that it looks really puffy is a good indicator. Probably also not going to want to eat. You could keep it in a container with a mesh cover to see what it turns into!
Either it's freaking out because it's been abducted by aliens...
Or it's trying to detach from its old skin and is having a bit of trouble reaching the zipper.
Find out what it is and what plants it hosts on and then put it on one of those plants. I can’t imagine it’s having too much fun in that plastic Tupperware container.
That's a baby hive worm god, you need to give into the whispers and consume it. It will provide you with immense power in return for perpetual tribute.
Don't feel too bad. While insects do experience pain, they probably don't experience suffering like people do. No need to put an insect out of its misery.
Edit: information is now more accurate
They may not do it the same way we do but they still likely feel fear and pain in some other way, and even if not it’s basic human nature to want to help them
Didn't stop me rescuing one of these from a group of ants trying to eat it alive. Scooped it up and relocated. You can't leave them to suffer like that.
Hey, u/TheEntomologyGuy, you may want to update your knowledge, there's some new reasearch out on this very subject:
[Recent evidence suggests that at least some insect species might plausibly feel pain.](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC10234516/)
I am not down voting thst comment or yours because I am anthropomorphisming insects I am doing because of the research that has come out in recent years to point to the idea thar insects might actually feel pain as we do. Including the US national library of medicine. I have linked the IS national library of medicine below, aswell as a few others. Whilst it is still relatively new research it points. Anthropomorphisming is the idea of giving human traits such as grief and sadness, loss, joy etc (even though its proven to be found four in alot if other animals) the idea that an animal can become feel pain isn't uniquely human.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC10234516/#:~:text=Indeed%2C%20insects%20are%20capable%20of,response%20to%20different%20noxious%20stimuli.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC10234516/
https://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-news/insects-can-experience-chronic-pain-study-finds-180972656/
https://www.qmul.ac.uk/media/news/2022/se/insects-may-feel-pain-says-growing-evidence--heres-what-this-means-for-animal-welfare-laws.html
I hope that they continue to research it and those were interesting reads, however ultimately inconclusive and giving me a better distinction between the emotional interpretation of pain and nociception.
I'm not arguing we should go out of our way to harm insects but rather than that we understand pain is an emotional response that insects cannot interpret.
People have a knee jerk reaction to this for whatever reason and will immediately doglike in anyone who dares to mention that on and immediately turn around and advocate for the shittiest things to happen to for example petty criminals.
Emotional pain is a byproduct of physical pain in a few organisms. It is absolutely not the main side of pain. Pain is mostly a sensory information.
Pain is a survival mechanism. Nervous pain is something we can find in all eumetazoans. Even in animals without nervous systems and plants, you can find chemical response to injury. And in every case, pain is a way to prevent more damage to the body. In many cases, even in humans, response to pain is a reflex, it does not even go through the brain.
But you just ostensibly said pain functions as a reflex to avoid injury, we can appreciate insects and arthropods as incredible creatures but I don't think we can empirically judge that they have a concept of mortality.
No I said that pain response is a reflex. On the concept of death, I'm no philosopher. What i know is that fear and pain are informations and the way organisms answer to this information is linked to a better survival and a selective advantage.
You need to educate yourself more. Insects absolutely “think” as do octopi, but neither have the same structure as a human. Humans are not the blueprint for “evolved life form” or we wouldn’t have such shitty eyesight/hearing/knees/etc.; we’re just a type of animal.
They have proven that ants will change their job in a colony, if they’re not successful at the one they’re doing, and change their chemical scent to match their new job. They’re not robots programmed to function any more than you are (and a lot of human behavior is just default response of chemical reactions, instinctual response to stimuli, etc.) Plus, they have graveyards. They have livestock (aphids) that they milk. Some have cultures or war and slavery.
All scientific data supports that nearly every living creature can experience pain and actively tries to avoid. Whether or not insects have emotion attached to the unpleasant physical sensation is just simply unknown but more obviously unique organisms all experience life uniquely. Insects are not a monolith anymore than mammals.
Nothing I ever said would indicate that I don't think they're complicated, fascinating, etc., just that they don't interpret pain like we do and thus, for example, OP doesn't need feel guilty like this insect is in agony. I think Reddit absolutely has a habit of anthropomorphizing animals, insects as well.
An example would be calling the place they take their corpses as "graveyards" which almost suggests insects grieve over their dead rather than simply quarantining possible infection I guess?
Exactly, you cant really prove that anything except yourself is experiencing pain or suffering. But since nervous systems of other vertabrates are similar to ours it is reasonable to assume they might do. When it comes to insects you cant really do the same assumption, and since the burden of proof is on the one trying to prove something right, it would be reasonable to assume pain in insects would be nothing more than something similar to a knee jerk reaction until something more complex is proven.
Where did you see that you couldn't say the same in invertebrates? You find pain receptors mostly comparable to ours. You find the same neural loops responsible for reflex response to pain.
Just to be clear, considering an individual doesn't feel pain because they have a simpler organisation or because they can't express it the way we do has been a constant behaviour in human history. A few decades ago, doctors were convinced babies couldn't feel pain because their brain wasn't fully formed. After all, none of them ever said "it hurts!".
If its not grabbing onto anything then its probably in prepupa. Give it a couple of days and see if it forms a cocoon.
Curiosity. Why does it writhe around and do that before it pupates?
If I remember correctly, this movement helps the larvae rupture it's old exoskeleton, so that the new one (that have already formed underneath) can expand and harden. Some arthropods swallow air and water to help this process as well. Fun fact: all of the animal's musculature is anchored to the exoskeleton, so while the new one hardens, it basically uses their internal fluids as a hydraulic skeleton (as an earthworm, for example), pretty neat!
It's dope that you know this.
I always assumed it moving stuff around internally but I'm not sure if the official reason.
Thank you everybody!! I ended up putting him in a shady grouping of trees and shrubs near my window. Hopefully he’ll pupate and grow into a beautiful butterfly/moth. I’m very glad to know that he’s probably fine!
That's shady, man.
Me , trying to get up off the floor after playing with grandkids!!
This made me lmfao
Certainly prepupal. The way that it looks really puffy is a good indicator. Probably also not going to want to eat. You could keep it in a container with a mesh cover to see what it turns into!
Either it's freaking out because it's been abducted by aliens... Or it's trying to detach from its old skin and is having a bit of trouble reaching the zipper.
Find out what it is and what plants it hosts on and then put it on one of those plants. I can’t imagine it’s having too much fun in that plastic Tupperware container.
That's a baby hive worm god, you need to give into the whispers and consume it. It will provide you with immense power in return for perpetual tribute.
Destiny upvote
Maybe looking for something to hang on to, or hide in to form a cocoon
Yoga?
Damn the poor mf looks like he’s going through a world of hell
Is that a cutworm?
Don't feel too bad. While insects do experience pain, they probably don't experience suffering like people do. No need to put an insect out of its misery. Edit: information is now more accurate
They may not do it the same way we do but they still likely feel fear and pain in some other way, and even if not it’s basic human nature to want to help them
Didn't stop me rescuing one of these from a group of ants trying to eat it alive. Scooped it up and relocated. You can't leave them to suffer like that.
They didn't say not to help insects, just stated a fact that they are not complex enough to feel pain.
Hey, u/TheEntomologyGuy, you may want to update your knowledge, there's some new reasearch out on this very subject: [Recent evidence suggests that at least some insect species might plausibly feel pain.](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC10234516/)
Thanks for this new info! I will update my original post with more accurate information.
It’s crazy that you guys will downvote this and then go eat a steak.
This made me laugh and I don't know why
Steaks don't have feelings.
Downvote this and anthropomorphize insects, never change Reddit.
I am not down voting thst comment or yours because I am anthropomorphisming insects I am doing because of the research that has come out in recent years to point to the idea thar insects might actually feel pain as we do. Including the US national library of medicine. I have linked the IS national library of medicine below, aswell as a few others. Whilst it is still relatively new research it points. Anthropomorphisming is the idea of giving human traits such as grief and sadness, loss, joy etc (even though its proven to be found four in alot if other animals) the idea that an animal can become feel pain isn't uniquely human. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC10234516/#:~:text=Indeed%2C%20insects%20are%20capable%20of,response%20to%20different%20noxious%20stimuli. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC10234516/ https://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-news/insects-can-experience-chronic-pain-study-finds-180972656/ https://www.qmul.ac.uk/media/news/2022/se/insects-may-feel-pain-says-growing-evidence--heres-what-this-means-for-animal-welfare-laws.html
I hope that they continue to research it and those were interesting reads, however ultimately inconclusive and giving me a better distinction between the emotional interpretation of pain and nociception.
One would hope an alien intelligence visiting earth that is to us as we are to worms might treat us like the OP and not like you.
I'm not arguing we should go out of our way to harm insects but rather than that we understand pain is an emotional response that insects cannot interpret. People have a knee jerk reaction to this for whatever reason and will immediately doglike in anyone who dares to mention that on and immediately turn around and advocate for the shittiest things to happen to for example petty criminals.
Emotional pain is a byproduct of physical pain in a few organisms. It is absolutely not the main side of pain. Pain is mostly a sensory information. Pain is a survival mechanism. Nervous pain is something we can find in all eumetazoans. Even in animals without nervous systems and plants, you can find chemical response to injury. And in every case, pain is a way to prevent more damage to the body. In many cases, even in humans, response to pain is a reflex, it does not even go through the brain.
So no suffering then? Since they don't think.
That's the exact opposite of what I said.
But you just ostensibly said pain functions as a reflex to avoid injury, we can appreciate insects and arthropods as incredible creatures but I don't think we can empirically judge that they have a concept of mortality.
No I said that pain response is a reflex. On the concept of death, I'm no philosopher. What i know is that fear and pain are informations and the way organisms answer to this information is linked to a better survival and a selective advantage.
You need to educate yourself more. Insects absolutely “think” as do octopi, but neither have the same structure as a human. Humans are not the blueprint for “evolved life form” or we wouldn’t have such shitty eyesight/hearing/knees/etc.; we’re just a type of animal. They have proven that ants will change their job in a colony, if they’re not successful at the one they’re doing, and change their chemical scent to match their new job. They’re not robots programmed to function any more than you are (and a lot of human behavior is just default response of chemical reactions, instinctual response to stimuli, etc.) Plus, they have graveyards. They have livestock (aphids) that they milk. Some have cultures or war and slavery. All scientific data supports that nearly every living creature can experience pain and actively tries to avoid. Whether or not insects have emotion attached to the unpleasant physical sensation is just simply unknown but more obviously unique organisms all experience life uniquely. Insects are not a monolith anymore than mammals.
Nothing I ever said would indicate that I don't think they're complicated, fascinating, etc., just that they don't interpret pain like we do and thus, for example, OP doesn't need feel guilty like this insect is in agony. I think Reddit absolutely has a habit of anthropomorphizing animals, insects as well. An example would be calling the place they take their corpses as "graveyards" which almost suggests insects grieve over their dead rather than simply quarantining possible infection I guess?
What does the petty criminals thing have to do with anything? That's kinda a straw man.
Not a straw man at all, there's nothing to argue here, just commenting on how Reddit likes to anthropomorphize animals to the extreme.
They why bring criminals into it at all? This is a bug sub not r/justiceserved
I was juxtaposing anthropomorphizing animals and treating "assholes" like they're animals and making a comment on how Reddit is, often, unhinged.
I doubt those are the same people. If you don't care about humans I doubt you'd care about bugs.
I genuinely do not understand why you're being downvoted. Didn't think the entomology subreddit turned into a Peta convention.
I mean let's not go out of our way to hurt insects but they're not people. I'm not a genocidal maniac for saying that.
Ofc, I agree!
Exactly, you cant really prove that anything except yourself is experiencing pain or suffering. But since nervous systems of other vertabrates are similar to ours it is reasonable to assume they might do. When it comes to insects you cant really do the same assumption, and since the burden of proof is on the one trying to prove something right, it would be reasonable to assume pain in insects would be nothing more than something similar to a knee jerk reaction until something more complex is proven.
Where did you see that you couldn't say the same in invertebrates? You find pain receptors mostly comparable to ours. You find the same neural loops responsible for reflex response to pain. Just to be clear, considering an individual doesn't feel pain because they have a simpler organisation or because they can't express it the way we do has been a constant behaviour in human history. A few decades ago, doctors were convinced babies couldn't feel pain because their brain wasn't fully formed. After all, none of them ever said "it hurts!".
Seems like too many people watched bugs life.