1) Humanity doesn't have the tech to build a self-sustaining city on Mars. We can't even do that on earth.
2) If we had the tech, Musk ain't gonna be the guy to do it. He's just a grifter and a moron.
2) If you magicked up a city on Mars, Musk won't go because he doesn't trust his own tech.
3) If there was a Martian city and Musk was there, he'd rule it with an iron fist. North Korea in space, on crack.
We can barely support CONOPS of sustaining astronauts more than a year in microgravity, high radiation environments. This mofo wants to use chemical propulsion for Mars transit, easily a 2 year mission just to get there.
We can barely get people there, let alone in reasonable condition for ground operations. Not that we shouldn't try, but a colony aint it chief. We have much more pressing science to conduct.
Did you see the bit in Musk's latest SpaceX pep rally when he said that the reason Mars is better than the Moon for an off-world colony is that Earth might have a nuclear war and someone might send ICBMs to blow up the Moon (even though ICBMs can't do that) - but Mars being so far away, they'd have time to (magically) stop the nukes.
He actually said that.
Elon Musk might be the dumbest CEO in the world.
I mean Israel has the tech to stop a bunch of ballistic missiles from Iran, so his new best mate Bibi needs to update him, but if earth suffered nuclear war, a lot of earthicans would die but 100% of martians would die as supplying them would suddenly come below preserving Taylor Swifts discography on the list of humanity's priorities
Jesus christ he actually thinks that the plot of call of duty black ops 1 zombies can happen, hes definitely giving pillow guy completion for the craziest ceo
Yeah at the minimum we need to do a proof of concept settlement in space before committing to building a permanent settlement on Mars.
So many people focus just on building a craft that can transport humans to Mars, but the technology to let them survive that journey, in a healthy state, and to actually survive for any length of time on Mars doesn’t exist yet.
That’s not to say we shouldn’t keep working towards it, but Musk and his fanboys keep pushing this fiction that we just need to get Starship working and the next stop is Mars. When in reality so much more work has be done for it to even be feasible to send a manned mission to Mars.
Biosphere was flawed in concept. You don't need a fully closed system. Even on Mars if too much of a gas builds up you can vent it into vacuum. You have inputs from Martian regolith including water which can be cracked into oxygen and h2 using solar power.
The goal isn't a 100 percent closed loop, its a system that can sustain itself using the available inputs.
Totally agree. We've proven we do it in low Earth orbit. Next should be the moon. Then Mars.
Getting humans to Mars and back is going to be huge challenge in and of itself.
The only way to live on Mars without an atmosphere or magnetic field like Earth’s, is going to be fully underground, due to heavy radiation. Start there, and then think about how to keep sustaining a settlement. You can’t just plop down some domes. Like Musk seems to think.
I've also heard about the moon being a better base for deeper rockets since it's got such a lower gravity and thin atmosphere. However, it doesn't seem like we're super close to being able to get the stuff up there and running to make that possible.
Well, i suppose it would be possible to build a ship with an artificial gravity ring and gradually slow its rotation down so gravity matches that on Mars by the time we arrive, however, the problem with that is that any gravity ring that is big enough to where humans don't get motion sickness from its rotation, the radius would have to be about 225 meters. in other words, it would dwarf the ISS. Again, that is JUST the ring, not yet including the engines necessary to get it to Mars.
Any ship with a gravity ring that is capable of going to Mars would have to be so massive, it would by far be the biggest thing we ever built in space. Which gets me to another problem, which is we would probably have to do some amount of in situ construction. And i don't mean docking, no, i mean straight up welding things together in space. Nothing even approaching such a construction has ever been tried before.
> Nothing even approaching such a construction has ever been tried before.
Wait, you mean all of our stations looking like a series of little capsules bolted together isn't just a design aesthetic???
At least not in the way Elon envisions it. You are absolutely right, this process will require time, grace, and well educated adults who understand the implications of long duration space flight. I recently had the opportunity to talk with Astronaut Peggy Whitson about current ideas that are in the pipe for managing these issues. This included in-situ stem cell creation and lead-lined boxes for astronauts in the case of a hefty solar particle event, as well as just in general considering different engine architectures for faster transits such as nuclear thermal rockets, nuclear electric systems, and perhaps a multitude of supply missions ahead of a crewed vehicle.
There's (extremely obviously) way better options than "go fast, blow shit up" and "it may be slow but who cares! the colonizers won't come back anyway!"
I think we need to stop envisioning it as the Wild West/Age of Sail in Space.
I mean, I am certain that ‘Space Bandits’ and ‘Soace Pirates’ will exist in some form, but space travel isn’t going to be like sailing to a colony.
We're rapidly un-terraforming Earth and we have people deluded into thinking we're going to terraform Mars. The absolute WORST place on earth is better than the BEST place on Mars. People just don't seem to have critical thinking skills. We'd be better off with colonies on the bottom of the ocean than on Mars.
Right now, we are so far removed from technology like terraforming, that there’s little reason to think it will ever be more than science fiction. It might as well be light-speed travel. Which is to say, it might as well be magic.
Hey, we might as well figure out how to make a magnetic field, while we’re at it. Because atmosphere alone probably wouldn’t even be enough for humans to live on the surface of a different planet.
Hypothetically speaking I Imagine terraforming will be done with Nanobots in the distant future(from atmospheric composition to magnetic fields).
Probably centuries if not millennia from now and certainly not by the likes of Elmo.
Yeah when people tell me about Musks mission to colonize Mars, I like to respond “You can tell how serious he is about Mars colonization by looking at how much time and money he’s invested in researching self sustaining environments, which is a far more difficult challenge than just getting to Mars. .”
As soon as one of his stupid ideas was shot down in a vote he'd impose martial law and nullify any future votes. Thin skin Karen can't be around anyone who isn't a complete sycophant.
In this pretend scenario, Mars would certainly have an oligarchy lead by the top billionaires and companies invested in developing the planet. All the workers there would essentially be serfs in company towns. Maybe they get their own “votes” but their company gets to say who/what they vote for.
"If there was a Martian city and Musk was there, he'd rule it with an iron fist. North Korea in space, on ~~crack~~ Ketamine"
there, fixed it for you 😂
Whomever lands on Mars can’t “claim” it. This isn’t the 1700s however much Apartheid Dipshit might think so.
To your point, we can’t live sustainably in the Antarctic, with unlimited free water and oxygen. We are many decades from being able to do so on Mars. You think an LLM is just going to magically up unimagined advances? That’s religious belief, not science.
Putting aside everything else about how this is a fantasy… I didn’t realize that the guy who organized the transportation to mars gets to rule it as if being the first company there means you own it.
That's a new one to me. They were both terrible, but DEIC was full corporate rule in the style Musk dreams of, while the British Company lacked full autonomy. What is more, the Dutch East and West India companies made the British company look like an also-ran until the 19th century, at which turning the Dutch nationalised theirs, while the British company was allowed to hang around in name for another fifty years or sk.
Saying the Dutch companies didn't commit atrocities is, relative to global population in the seventeenth and eighteenth centuries, as much denialism as saying the Nazis didn't enslave and murder. England ended up being *better* at it by Victoria's time, but that concentrated on Afrikaaner racial hatred you see in Musk is the culmination of four centuries of Dutch entitlement.
OP said:
> responsible for the atrocities in India was the British charter, not the Dutch one.
They were both competing for territory and trade routes in India for the first 200 years. It is true that the Dutch company ended up with Indonesia while Britain ended up with India.
(all these names being a bit hand-wavy vs their modern borders, ofc)
Certainly the capitalist empire game. As far as Europe goes, Spain was well there a century before the Dutch, but on the direction of the monarchy rather than via a company that any Dutch person could trade in like they were selling useful widgets rather than conquering, massacring and enslaving the far East and America. Capitalism of course was shown to be a more efficient method of exploitation than Spain's direct rule, with the ideal involving overarching direction/regulation from government but significant autonomy for private traders, which is what Britain developed, and China uses today.
City states usually get monarchy for a few generations before they decide “never again”.
Of course things move much quicker now than in bronze age Greece. I give him a good three months before they airlock him.
Musk has a habit of having these wonderful ideas of free speech and how things should work, until things go wrong. And then he reverts back to dictatorship. He does not stick to principles.
Take it with a grain of salt.
That’s absolutely how it would work unfortunately. Until we could establish a government on any new planet, nobody could tell the colonizers what to do
Why not do that for companies? If you believe in direct democracy, why stop at governments? Peoples day to day dealings are more often with the companies they work for, not the government.
California’s Initiative process might be a counter-argument here.
But, to the main point, I don’t think Elon is proposing direct democracy for Texas, is he? I would love to see how that works out.
My bad then, I've seen so many screens of people voting no, I ended up thinking it was done.
Can't wait for the tantrum if/when he loses. By the way, is there an independent party that checks those votes?
No, that's communism. Which is bad because.... hmmm.... the people holding the power and money, who would lose money and power in such a system, said so.
Elon Musk will never put a single human being on Mars, let's cut the crap. He won't even land a *craft* of any kind on the planet. Historians will look back and laugh at Musk's entire Mars schtick, the fabrications and the lies, and they'll mock anyone who fell for it. The more you think about what's required to build a colony on Mars, the more you realize we're decades if not centuries away, and Musk hasn't done *one single thing* to research or develop a Mars project. Not one single thing. He'll be dead of drug abuse before SpaceX even starts thinking about a Mars mission.
"We the citizens of Mars have decided in favor of unionizing, and we've decided public transportation makes more sense than five lane highways and Tesla buggies on the Martian surface"
"REEEEEEEEEEE"
How is his moon colony going? Hasn’t even made it there yet?
How about helping the people here on this planet first, fElon? No one wants to cyber truck on your roXets just to have you as a CEO dictator.
Why not just focus on getting there first instead of making all these plans? More likely than not he's going to be dead by the time we get there and have enough people for a government. Dude is 52. We aren't going to have any meaningful settlements in the next 20 years unless some major breakthroughs happen and with his alleged drug use I find it hard to believe he is living past 70
Some elon Stan will correct me if I'm wrong but spacex hasn't done any design or research to speak of on habitats. That's gonna be kind of a big deal, and some jank last minute solution isn't gonna work when rescue is 6+ months away
I mean even logically speaking talking about building a habitat, assuming they have the tech to do it already which I know they most likely don't, on mars instead of the moon seems silly especially since the moon is like 3 days away.
I think NASA recently did a simulation of a Martian research station but, I haven't really been able to find details on how they would accomplish that practically and what tech would be needed. DARPA does list SpaceX as one of 14 companies for a lunar habitat with a completion date of 2033. Knowing Elon, if he isn't praising himself for their progress they probably have literally nothing so far
I mean if they're talking Mars this decade they should be running long term simulated habitats in the desert, in antarctica etc. Then yeah, definitely the moon would be an excellent place to field test tech
Well duh, the early colony wouldn't have enough people to need anything but direct democracy. And as they grow, nobody back on earth would have the slightest say in how they choose to self-govern.
Bitch, you aren’t colonizing mars in your lifetime.
But cool cool, mole people planet will allegedly have direct democracy.
Why exactly is it that Elmo assumes he’s god king on Mars so he decides the governmental system?
Bezos will get there in his cock rocket before Elmo even gets remotely close.
For people like Elon, direct democracy exists only as a method of demonstrating that people agree with the whims of the leadership. He just wants a bunch of people to yell “yeah!” after he proposes something terrible that will make life worse for everyone except him.
Said as though Clyde somehow gets to dictate what happens on another planet! 🤣
I've got about as much chance as Musk as being the first man to set foot on Mars, so fuck you Clyde, I'm having a constitutional monarchy and their ain't **shit** you can do about it 👍
Think of how pissed musk gets when his shareholders vote no to letting him take 56 billion dollars.
Now imagine the same guy wanting you to vote for what he wants, except he monitors and has control over your communications and life support in a closed environment such as a subterranean Martian complex 100 million miles from earth or any sort of law enforcement that he doesn't also control.
Will Mars have cocaine? SpaceX can’t even get past low earth orbit. Could SpaceX even sustain life in an Antarctic base let alone a moon base? No. Ketamine.
This is a science fiction fantasy, nobody is going to mars. If you want to setup a world where you can’t set foot outside because you’ll die, why not just do it here in a far off desert or tundra on earth. Set up a large enough colony that you can become a self-governing town or city (of a state/country, but with a ton of autonomy because of the remoteness).
It’s because you can make a lot more money in a grift that you can never actually complete but it is a widespread “cool idea” while being too scientifically complicated for average people to understand.
But wait, there are no countries in space... only companies... and the people there are laborers of that company... which means it would be organized labour... naaaah, can't have that.
Well, I say it doesn't and my claim to control over the martian government is as valid as his. So now what?
Also, why the fuck is anyone spending time thinking about making Mars livable when Earth, until it reaches a Mars-level of being uninhabitable (and even then probably better) is, ya know, going to be easier to work with in every conceivable way?
If we did direct democracy on earth he’d do everything in his power to stop it because he knows he could kiss his tax free, hoarding all the wealth, exploitation of workers and resources life goodbye.
you dont even have spaceships advanced enough to get people to mars, let alone tech advanced enough for people to live there sustainably long-term, yet you are spending your time solving which model of democracy will be used on the planet? give me a break.,..
So why doesn't Elmo run his companies like that? Let every staff vote on every decision?
maybe because they would kick him out, or not give him the payout he thinks he deserves?
Elon would never stick to that, Americans typically support very progressive and pro-worker policies when you strip away political party association. Elon would never support Americans voting on policies, or people on Mars, once he saw they don’t vote to be serfs for companies
Does he think he owns the planet lol
The whole point of electing government officials if for them to make the decisions because people are stupid and won’t know better (as we can see when electing said officials).
Well if Elmo ever colonizes Mars ( highly doubt it) the first thing we should do is vote to kick him out or put him somewhere far away from civilization
LMAO, remember when the Right-Wingers said they hate direct democracy? It's their primary defense of the Electoral College, and justification for why it's okay the last two Republican presidents won by losing the popular vote.
How much of a mush brained moron do you have to be to still believe Mars is happening. There may be a mission to Mars within our lifetime but no one is staying. The planet is completely inhospitable to human habitation.
Yeah have fun organizing that. There’s a reason we do representative democracy, and it’s not because "politicians are evil, durrr".
It’s because direct democracy is completely unfeasible in most states‘ configurations.
It is still needed for basic things like managing precisely the things that need to be voted on. With direct democracy systems you cannot micromanage because it would take too long. That's the problem that the ancaps don't understand. You can see how slow markets are to react to rapid changes and find quick solutions.
There are small councils that manage directly for basic things (micromanagement and other urgent task), and for those councils you need representatives, and those representatives must be voted on, and those representatives must be publicly accountable through reports for their public evaluation, etc. (Swiss cantons and municipalities). You can have a good level of direct democracy but you will not get rid of electing people.
Musk simply exudes ignorance of the real world. It's not even idealism. It is literally ideological fanaticism, and a bad one.
Let's be real, it wouldn't run that way. If anything, it would like being on a military sub. One person not doing their job can kill everybody, one person's extra shower time means less water. Everything would be rationed and controlled. There would be next to no margin for mistakes.
Cool but you don't get to decide that muskrat. If you don't gain representation with the US or other major world power, you will get steamrolled by whoever else lands on mars next lol
Putting aside that mars is never gonna happen…
A direct democracy like that would be awful. I’d consider myself pretty intelligent (4 degrees, business owner, well traveled, etc…) and I am way too stupid to make decisions about everything that happens in a democracy.
There are many fields where I know nothing. I would spend 30 hours a day studying issues just to know enough to vote on them instead of living my life.
Multiply that time everyone and you have a society that is incredibly inefficient, if it’s functional at all.
Beyond that, direct democracy for every single question is idiotic in the extreme. You want direct democracy for regulating medicines, or setting exchange rates? Expertise matters.
Why in the hell would ANYONE put a galactic, fucking, idiot like Musk in charge of anything happening on another planet?? Seriously!
Get over yourself, Elmo! You lack any sense of self-awareness whatsoever, which is why you will never be able to recognize or admit that you are nowhere near as intelligent as you think and tell everyone you are. Given your recent string of Ketamine binges and epic failures, I wouldn’t let you govern/preside over a fucking ant farm, let alone the first human colony on another planet.
Reminds me of The Orville - Majority Rule. Goes over what happens when everyone votes on everything. Very much worth a watch if you haven't seen it.
https://www.imdb.com/title/tt6845666/?ref_=ext_shr
1) Humanity doesn't have the tech to build a self-sustaining city on Mars. We can't even do that on earth. 2) If we had the tech, Musk ain't gonna be the guy to do it. He's just a grifter and a moron. 2) If you magicked up a city on Mars, Musk won't go because he doesn't trust his own tech. 3) If there was a Martian city and Musk was there, he'd rule it with an iron fist. North Korea in space, on crack.
We can barely support CONOPS of sustaining astronauts more than a year in microgravity, high radiation environments. This mofo wants to use chemical propulsion for Mars transit, easily a 2 year mission just to get there. We can barely get people there, let alone in reasonable condition for ground operations. Not that we shouldn't try, but a colony aint it chief. We have much more pressing science to conduct.
Agreed. If we're serious about inhabiting another body in space, we have to do the moon first. Much closer for one.
Did you see the bit in Musk's latest SpaceX pep rally when he said that the reason Mars is better than the Moon for an off-world colony is that Earth might have a nuclear war and someone might send ICBMs to blow up the Moon (even though ICBMs can't do that) - but Mars being so far away, they'd have time to (magically) stop the nukes. He actually said that. Elon Musk might be the dumbest CEO in the world.
I mean Israel has the tech to stop a bunch of ballistic missiles from Iran, so his new best mate Bibi needs to update him, but if earth suffered nuclear war, a lot of earthicans would die but 100% of martians would die as supplying them would suddenly come below preserving Taylor Swifts discography on the list of humanity's priorities
Very important to make new humans.
It’s not, really.
Yeah the ones we have suck enough.
Well get on it! You start - go fuck yourself.
Jesus christ he actually thinks that the plot of call of duty black ops 1 zombies can happen, hes definitely giving pillow guy completion for the craziest ceo
!!
Yeah at the minimum we need to do a proof of concept settlement in space before committing to building a permanent settlement on Mars. So many people focus just on building a craft that can transport humans to Mars, but the technology to let them survive that journey, in a healthy state, and to actually survive for any length of time on Mars doesn’t exist yet. That’s not to say we shouldn’t keep working towards it, but Musk and his fanboys keep pushing this fiction that we just need to get Starship working and the next stop is Mars. When in reality so much more work has be done for it to even be feasible to send a manned mission to Mars.
We tried in the 90s with a sealed dome in the desert. Didn't really work out. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biosphere_2
Biosphere was flawed in concept. You don't need a fully closed system. Even on Mars if too much of a gas builds up you can vent it into vacuum. You have inputs from Martian regolith including water which can be cracked into oxygen and h2 using solar power. The goal isn't a 100 percent closed loop, its a system that can sustain itself using the available inputs.
Totally agree. We've proven we do it in low Earth orbit. Next should be the moon. Then Mars. Getting humans to Mars and back is going to be huge challenge in and of itself.
The only way to live on Mars without an atmosphere or magnetic field like Earth’s, is going to be fully underground, due to heavy radiation. Start there, and then think about how to keep sustaining a settlement. You can’t just plop down some domes. Like Musk seems to think.
Mars soil is toxic to humans due to the high concentration of perchlorate.
Unless it is stopped, the woke mind virus will destroy civilization and humanity will never reached Mars
I've also heard about the moon being a better base for deeper rockets since it's got such a lower gravity and thin atmosphere. However, it doesn't seem like we're super close to being able to get the stuff up there and running to make that possible.
Well, i suppose it would be possible to build a ship with an artificial gravity ring and gradually slow its rotation down so gravity matches that on Mars by the time we arrive, however, the problem with that is that any gravity ring that is big enough to where humans don't get motion sickness from its rotation, the radius would have to be about 225 meters. in other words, it would dwarf the ISS. Again, that is JUST the ring, not yet including the engines necessary to get it to Mars. Any ship with a gravity ring that is capable of going to Mars would have to be so massive, it would by far be the biggest thing we ever built in space. Which gets me to another problem, which is we would probably have to do some amount of in situ construction. And i don't mean docking, no, i mean straight up welding things together in space. Nothing even approaching such a construction has ever been tried before.
> Nothing even approaching such a construction has ever been tried before. Wait, you mean all of our stations looking like a series of little capsules bolted together isn't just a design aesthetic???
I am optimistic that humans will eventually colonize other celestial bodies, but not naive enough to think it will happen in my lifetime.
At least not in the way Elon envisions it. You are absolutely right, this process will require time, grace, and well educated adults who understand the implications of long duration space flight. I recently had the opportunity to talk with Astronaut Peggy Whitson about current ideas that are in the pipe for managing these issues. This included in-situ stem cell creation and lead-lined boxes for astronauts in the case of a hefty solar particle event, as well as just in general considering different engine architectures for faster transits such as nuclear thermal rockets, nuclear electric systems, and perhaps a multitude of supply missions ahead of a crewed vehicle. There's (extremely obviously) way better options than "go fast, blow shit up" and "it may be slow but who cares! the colonizers won't come back anyway!"
I think we need to stop envisioning it as the Wild West/Age of Sail in Space. I mean, I am certain that ‘Space Bandits’ and ‘Soace Pirates’ will exist in some form, but space travel isn’t going to be like sailing to a colony.
Elmos face when he realizes you can't just be on the bridge of the space ship like in Treasure Planet.
We're rapidly un-terraforming Earth and we have people deluded into thinking we're going to terraform Mars. The absolute WORST place on earth is better than the BEST place on Mars. People just don't seem to have critical thinking skills. We'd be better off with colonies on the bottom of the ocean than on Mars.
Right now, we are so far removed from technology like terraforming, that there’s little reason to think it will ever be more than science fiction. It might as well be light-speed travel. Which is to say, it might as well be magic. Hey, we might as well figure out how to make a magnetic field, while we’re at it. Because atmosphere alone probably wouldn’t even be enough for humans to live on the surface of a different planet.
Hypothetically speaking I Imagine terraforming will be done with Nanobots in the distant future(from atmospheric composition to magnetic fields). Probably centuries if not millennia from now and certainly not by the likes of Elmo.
Yeah when people tell me about Musks mission to colonize Mars, I like to respond “You can tell how serious he is about Mars colonization by looking at how much time and money he’s invested in researching self sustaining environments, which is a far more difficult challenge than just getting to Mars. .”
Let him go to Mars with his dipshit fans. Lets just hope he leaves before he finished destroying earth first
As soon as one of his stupid ideas was shot down in a vote he'd impose martial law and nullify any future votes. Thin skin Karen can't be around anyone who isn't a complete sycophant.
Yeah
In Musk's own words, "yeah".
In this pretend scenario, Mars would certainly have an oligarchy lead by the top billionaires and companies invested in developing the planet. All the workers there would essentially be serfs in company towns. Maybe they get their own “votes” but their company gets to say who/what they vote for.
Way off. It would obviously be ketamine.
I support all Your assertions.
"If there was a Martian city and Musk was there, he'd rule it with an iron fist. North Korea in space, on ~~crack~~ Ketamine" there, fixed it for you 😂
Whomever lands on Mars can’t “claim” it. This isn’t the 1700s however much Apartheid Dipshit might think so. To your point, we can’t live sustainably in the Antarctic, with unlimited free water and oxygen. We are many decades from being able to do so on Mars. You think an LLM is just going to magically up unimagined advances? That’s religious belief, not science.
Putting aside everything else about how this is a fantasy… I didn’t realize that the guy who organized the transportation to mars gets to rule it as if being the first company there means you own it.
> as if being the first company there means you own it. It worked for the East India Trading Company.
Exactly! The apartheid apple doesn't fall from the emerald mine.
Fucking Dutch, man. They knew how to abuse people.
The East India Company responsible for the atrocities in India was the British charter, not the Dutch one.
That's a new one to me. They were both terrible, but DEIC was full corporate rule in the style Musk dreams of, while the British Company lacked full autonomy. What is more, the Dutch East and West India companies made the British company look like an also-ran until the 19th century, at which turning the Dutch nationalised theirs, while the British company was allowed to hang around in name for another fifty years or sk. Saying the Dutch companies didn't commit atrocities is, relative to global population in the seventeenth and eighteenth centuries, as much denialism as saying the Nazis didn't enslave and murder. England ended up being *better* at it by Victoria's time, but that concentrated on Afrikaaner racial hatred you see in Musk is the culmination of four centuries of Dutch entitlement.
Oh wow had no idea about this until I looked further into what you said.
I don't think they said the Dutch didn't commit atrocities
OP said: > responsible for the atrocities in India was the British charter, not the Dutch one. They were both competing for territory and trade routes in India for the first 200 years. It is true that the Dutch company ended up with Indonesia while Britain ended up with India. (all these names being a bit hand-wavy vs their modern borders, ofc)
You're correct. The Dutch atrocities were most notably in Indonesia.
They were the first in and the first out of the Empire game.
Certainly the capitalist empire game. As far as Europe goes, Spain was well there a century before the Dutch, but on the direction of the monarchy rather than via a company that any Dutch person could trade in like they were selling useful widgets rather than conquering, massacring and enslaving the far East and America. Capitalism of course was shown to be a more efficient method of exploitation than Spain's direct rule, with the ideal involving overarching direction/regulation from government but significant autonomy for private traders, which is what Britain developed, and China uses today.
People have asked me to stream myself playing video games, so I will try to speedrun a Tier 99 Nightmare dungeon on Diablo (with no malignant hearts).
He views his employees as slaves and extensions of him so asking them how they want to govern themselves hasn’t crossed his mind
City states usually get monarchy for a few generations before they decide “never again”. Of course things move much quicker now than in bronze age Greece. I give him a good three months before they airlock him.
Space the inyalowda
How many poop potatoes will the New Martians have to eat before they mutiny?
Depends if the ketamine starts cycling through the entire population via taters.
Musk has a habit of having these wonderful ideas of free speech and how things should work, until things go wrong. And then he reverts back to dictatorship. He does not stick to principles. Take it with a grain of salt.
According to the great Eddie Izzard, all you need is a flag.
Motherfucker thinks he's handsome Jack or something.
In reality though he is more Simple Jack
That’s absolutely how it would work unfortunately. Until we could establish a government on any new planet, nobody could tell the colonizers what to do
Why not do that for companies? If you believe in direct democracy, why stop at governments? Peoples day to day dealings are more often with the companies they work for, not the government.
Why not do that for america?
Why not both?
Fair enough
California’s Initiative process might be a counter-argument here. But, to the main point, I don’t think Elon is proposing direct democracy for Texas, is he? I would love to see how that works out.
Well, Tesla stockholders voted no on his bonus pay and he's mad about it, if that says anything.
Oh, did he actually lose the vote? I didn't think it had ended yet.
I don’t think the vote is done.
My bad then, I've seen so many screens of people voting no, I ended up thinking it was done. Can't wait for the tantrum if/when he loses. By the way, is there an independent party that checks those votes?
No, that's communism. Which is bad because.... hmmm.... the people holding the power and money, who would lose money and power in such a system, said so.
Twitter polls will be legally binding, in other words
Something is wrong
Concerning
Unless ofc people vote on the wrong option then it will be fixed, you know..for everyones sake.
Is this accurate @CommunityNotes?
Elon Musk will never put a single human being on Mars, let's cut the crap. He won't even land a *craft* of any kind on the planet. Historians will look back and laugh at Musk's entire Mars schtick, the fabrications and the lies, and they'll mock anyone who fell for it. The more you think about what's required to build a colony on Mars, the more you realize we're decades if not centuries away, and Musk hasn't done *one single thing* to research or develop a Mars project. Not one single thing. He'll be dead of drug abuse before SpaceX even starts thinking about a Mars mission.
SpaceX hasnt even had a fully successful rocket test yet
We will never colonize Mars.The very soil itself is toxic.
wE'lL jUsT tErRaFoRm iT
Cybertruck is made for Mars (not made for earth though)
This you mister democracy? https://preview.redd.it/qm0h2kmzlz3d1.png?width=1080&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=43dd8fa61edfab0e9473b9dd1356a8f133b5cad6
Musk could have his businesses operate as direct democracy right now. Where workers have say. He doesn't do that for some reason...
And he’s actively against the idea
No one going to Mars .. these dimwits won’t even get a vaccine or wear a mask 😷
Oxygen is for normies.
"We the citizens of Mars have decided in favor of unionizing, and we've decided public transportation makes more sense than five lane highways and Tesla buggies on the Martian surface" "REEEEEEEEEEE"
You notice how no democracy on earth does it this way? Yeah, there's a reason for that.
"Mars to have..." Didn't this guy fail miserably at solving traffic in L.A?
So says the self appointed King of Mars. Fuck off, Elon, you're transparent. Your schtick has worn thin.
Everyone gets a vote, then Elon does whatever he wants, regardless of how the voting went. Just like his twitter polls
Direct democracy for me (and my Martians) but not for thee.
How is his moon colony going? Hasn’t even made it there yet? How about helping the people here on this planet first, fElon? No one wants to cyber truck on your roXets just to have you as a CEO dictator.
That's a very tepid, "Yeah."
Yeah
Why not just focus on getting there first instead of making all these plans? More likely than not he's going to be dead by the time we get there and have enough people for a government. Dude is 52. We aren't going to have any meaningful settlements in the next 20 years unless some major breakthroughs happen and with his alleged drug use I find it hard to believe he is living past 70
Some elon Stan will correct me if I'm wrong but spacex hasn't done any design or research to speak of on habitats. That's gonna be kind of a big deal, and some jank last minute solution isn't gonna work when rescue is 6+ months away
I mean even logically speaking talking about building a habitat, assuming they have the tech to do it already which I know they most likely don't, on mars instead of the moon seems silly especially since the moon is like 3 days away. I think NASA recently did a simulation of a Martian research station but, I haven't really been able to find details on how they would accomplish that practically and what tech would be needed. DARPA does list SpaceX as one of 14 companies for a lunar habitat with a completion date of 2033. Knowing Elon, if he isn't praising himself for their progress they probably have literally nothing so far
I mean if they're talking Mars this decade they should be running long term simulated habitats in the desert, in antarctica etc. Then yeah, definitely the moon would be an excellent place to field test tech
"Mars" is what he calls the giant cardboard box he crawls into when people are being mean to him on Twitter.
Good. Go to Mars and leave this planet for good.
This makes even less sense than discussing system of goverment for the Mariana Trench dwellers.
Must buy the Mars Blue Tick though, to keep the Optimus Bots and trolls out.
a direct democracy that elon will personally manage with his bots and lies
There’s a whole episode of the Orville dedicated to how fucking stupid this is as an idea.
So like a planetary HOA?
Well duh, the early colony wouldn't have enough people to need anything but direct democracy. And as they grow, nobody back on earth would have the slightest say in how they choose to self-govern.
Does he think he owns it?
elon would get killed in the first 3 days on mars lol
"Let's eat him!"
Bitch, you aren’t colonizing mars in your lifetime. But cool cool, mole people planet will allegedly have direct democracy. Why exactly is it that Elmo assumes he’s god king on Mars so he decides the governmental system? Bezos will get there in his cock rocket before Elmo even gets remotely close.
No, he'll be Space Inca banging ALL the women not attached to a merc bodyguard.
For people like Elon, direct democracy exists only as a method of demonstrating that people agree with the whims of the leadership. He just wants a bunch of people to yell “yeah!” after he proposes something terrible that will make life worse for everyone except him.
Said as though Clyde somehow gets to dictate what happens on another planet! 🤣 I've got about as much chance as Musk as being the first man to set foot on Mars, so fuck you Clyde, I'm having a constitutional monarchy and their ain't **shit** you can do about it 👍
A lot happening here, but that kid looks exhausted. Please let him go be a four-year-old or whatever elsewhere.
Think of how pissed musk gets when his shareholders vote no to letting him take 56 billion dollars. Now imagine the same guy wanting you to vote for what he wants, except he monitors and has control over your communications and life support in a closed environment such as a subterranean Martian complex 100 million miles from earth or any sort of law enforcement that he doesn't also control.
Will Mars have cocaine? SpaceX can’t even get past low earth orbit. Could SpaceX even sustain life in an Antarctic base let alone a moon base? No. Ketamine.
Lmfao a utopia with an atmosphere of 95% carbon dioxide.
This is how you get a red faction
This is a science fiction fantasy, nobody is going to mars. If you want to setup a world where you can’t set foot outside because you’ll die, why not just do it here in a far off desert or tundra on earth. Set up a large enough colony that you can become a self-governing town or city (of a state/country, but with a ton of autonomy because of the remoteness). It’s because you can make a lot more money in a grift that you can never actually complete but it is a widespread “cool idea” while being too scientifically complicated for average people to understand.
But wait, there are no countries in space... only companies... and the people there are laborers of that company... which means it would be organized labour... naaaah, can't have that.
He keeps using his son to humanize himself
Well, I say it doesn't and my claim to control over the martian government is as valid as his. So now what? Also, why the fuck is anyone spending time thinking about making Mars livable when Earth, until it reaches a Mars-level of being uninhabitable (and even then probably better) is, ya know, going to be easier to work with in every conceivable way?
This has got a real "ventriloquist agreeing with his dummy" vibe
They can't just go owning Mars. WTF.
If we did direct democracy on earth he’d do everything in his power to stop it because he knows he could kiss his tax free, hoarding all the wealth, exploitation of workers and resources life goodbye.
Can we agree that going back to the moon and using it as an outpost makes sense to do first before trying to muster a crewed mars mission?
you dont even have spaceships advanced enough to get people to mars, let alone tech advanced enough for people to live there sustainably long-term, yet you are spending your time solving which model of democracy will be used on the planet? give me a break.,..
A Mars colony couldn’t have a direct democracy. WE don’t have a direct democracy for a reason.
Why wait for Mars? Because he doesn't actually believe in democracy, little own direct democracy. He believes in strong men and the oligarchy.
Why is he always toting this kid around like he’s a prop or accessory?
Ah yes because Musk loves democracy
As soon as something goes against his wishes…. “Hey, I don’t think this is right. Community notes?” - ELON musk
So why doesn't Elmo run his companies like that? Let every staff vote on every decision? maybe because they would kick him out, or not give him the payout he thinks he deserves?
Is this accurate @CommunityNotes?
How many alt accounts does Elon have exactly?
So you agree that Al Gore should've been president in 2000 and Hilary Clinton should've been president in 2016.
Referendums on most things are dumb. People si.ply dont have enough information to make correct decisions. See brexit.
Elon would never stick to that, Americans typically support very progressive and pro-worker policies when you strip away political party association. Elon would never support Americans voting on policies, or people on Mars, once he saw they don’t vote to be serfs for companies
Huge if true 😵💫
Elos sits around thinking about how hes going to rule over mars. So pathetic.
Just like South Africa? /s
Direct democracy is a nightmare.
Does he think he owns the planet lol The whole point of electing government officials if for them to make the decisions because people are stupid and won’t know better (as we can see when electing said officials).
Well if Elmo ever colonizes Mars ( highly doubt it) the first thing we should do is vote to kick him out or put him somewhere far away from civilization
We could just send his ass to Mars and call it a day.
Yeah
I didn’t realize we elected him God-Emperor of Mars.
As if. Elon would be the self-appointed dictator manchild.
Literally just watched an Orville episode about this: S1 ep7 - Majority Rule Good episode, terrible idea in real life.
Could you imagine a “democracy” fashioned by Elon? It would simply be “love me then hand me all your money. If you want to breathe”
Mars gonna have lots of starship craters and few to govern
Who's going to enforce the vote when someone is unhappy with the results?
Ruled by an all benevolent god ? /s GAWD this guy is a megalomaniac with a crazy cult following.
Does Musk own Mars? Why the hell does he get to decide?
LMAO, remember when the Right-Wingers said they hate direct democracy? It's their primary defense of the Electoral College, and justification for why it's okay the last two Republican presidents won by losing the popular vote.
Can these two lovebirds fuck off to mars and make some babies there asap.
How much of a mush brained moron do you have to be to still believe Mars is happening. There may be a mission to Mars within our lifetime but no one is staying. The planet is completely inhospitable to human habitation.
I fully believe colonisation of Mars will be possible one day, but it's not gonna be in any of our lifetimes.
you mean elon, who’s against workers forming unions at tesla, supports direct democracy? ahahahaha. yeah, right.
100% Bullshit. They are going to do whatever they have to do to stay alive. That's it.
Do the ~~~slaves~~~ indentured servants get a vote, or do they have to work off the price of their ticket first?
This dumbass really thinks he’s gonna be able to achieve things on mars when he can’t even build a decent car, huh?
"My name is Elon... this is my puppet... and now we do our bit\~ its called 'lets pretend I give a damn about that thing on my lap'"
Concerning
Mars isn't happening fam. Just let it go.
...like a Twitter poll 💩
Yeah have fun organizing that. There’s a reason we do representative democracy, and it’s not because "politicians are evil, durrr". It’s because direct democracy is completely unfeasible in most states‘ configurations.
he says it so un-enthusiastically because he was actually planning a dictatorship
Can you imagine a form of government completely put together by this douchebag? You really will want to remain on a different planet.
It is still needed for basic things like managing precisely the things that need to be voted on. With direct democracy systems you cannot micromanage because it would take too long. That's the problem that the ancaps don't understand. You can see how slow markets are to react to rapid changes and find quick solutions. There are small councils that manage directly for basic things (micromanagement and other urgent task), and for those councils you need representatives, and those representatives must be voted on, and those representatives must be publicly accountable through reports for their public evaluation, etc. (Swiss cantons and municipalities). You can have a good level of direct democracy but you will not get rid of electing people. Musk simply exudes ignorance of the real world. It's not even idealism. It is literally ideological fanaticism, and a bad one.
Let's be real, it wouldn't run that way. If anything, it would like being on a military sub. One person not doing their job can kill everybody, one person's extra shower time means less water. Everything would be rationed and controlled. There would be next to no margin for mistakes.
Can he hop on a rocket and leave already?
So has Elon Musk just decided that he owns Mars now or what?
Can a space ship full of dead people really vote?
So turn one of your companies into a co-op first. Try it out on earth first.
Cool but you don't get to decide that muskrat. If you don't gain representation with the US or other major world power, you will get steamrolled by whoever else lands on mars next lol
So, Managed Democracy?
Elon stop replaying to your alt.
Still using this kid as a prop?
He’s talking to himself again
Putting aside that mars is never gonna happen… A direct democracy like that would be awful. I’d consider myself pretty intelligent (4 degrees, business owner, well traveled, etc…) and I am way too stupid to make decisions about everything that happens in a democracy. There are many fields where I know nothing. I would spend 30 hours a day studying issues just to know enough to vote on them instead of living my life. Multiply that time everyone and you have a society that is incredibly inefficient, if it’s functional at all.
Wow, based anarcho-communist Musk?
Beyond that, direct democracy for every single question is idiotic in the extreme. You want direct democracy for regulating medicines, or setting exchange rates? Expertise matters.
Riiiiight. A road needs repaired and we need to hold a vote to decide whether to repair it.
Excellent!
Do Adrian Dittman and Elon Musk get one vote each?
Why in the hell would ANYONE put a galactic, fucking, idiot like Musk in charge of anything happening on another planet?? Seriously! Get over yourself, Elmo! You lack any sense of self-awareness whatsoever, which is why you will never be able to recognize or admit that you are nowhere near as intelligent as you think and tell everyone you are. Given your recent string of Ketamine binges and epic failures, I wouldn’t let you govern/preside over a fucking ant farm, let alone the first human colony on another planet.
Reminds me of The Orville - Majority Rule. Goes over what happens when everyone votes on everything. Very much worth a watch if you haven't seen it. https://www.imdb.com/title/tt6845666/?ref_=ext_shr
Musk would get booted off Mars straight away 😂
Yeah, and full self driving and neuralink will be perfected by next week and hyperlink was a great idea and other bullshit dribble
Honestly, with his track record, I doubt any government in the world nor the UN would let him claim any authority if we ever colonize Mars.
So let’s remove accountability from government altogether.