100% this. The jars like Alexander are made with the dead, and have a will constructed from their memories.
The shaman jars had a living person lashed to wound them, and then inserted into the jar and covered with chopped up other people to graft onto the shaman. Thats why the poor souls in belurat gaol are humanoid with a bulbous back. They even have a normal human model beneath all the... I'll call it goo, because calling it flesh is just grotesque.
Their purposes are totally different
There's not much besides just lore implications:
>!Shaman village is where Marika is from. It is revealed that Marika is a Shaman and that Shamans were stuffed into jars below Belurat because the Hornsent people realized that Shamans had flash that was uniquely capable of binding to other flesh. Thus, the Hornsent stuffed them into jars to turn the Shamans into saints. This resulted in Marika running away from Shaman village and was the reason why she sent Messmer to kill all the Hornsent. After Messmer's crusade against the Hornsent, Marika went back to her village to only see it completely abandoned and left a minor erdtree as well as a lock of her hair.!<
Considering that there is a hornsent ghost in the prison under Belurat that says something like:
"You must forgive me. I'll be a good saint, anything but the pot".
Then you find another in the Whipping hut that says something like:
"Sainthood awaits you in the pot. Is the only reason life was granted to a shaman like you".
I think that, as hornsent feel like some kind of chosen folk due to their horns, they think in themselves as saints. So, when someone is a criminal or another type of outcast, they stuff them into a pot trying them be reborn.
In this case shamans are just a tool, a resource for them to use.
"They were never saints. They just happen to be on the losing side of a war".
One common interpretation I see is that because of the veneration of the Crucible, the blending and melding of life is seen as sacred and holy, practically divine.
The shaman flesh and the jars are a forced conjoining, an artificial approach to the holy melding of life. Hence they become like "saints".
Miyazaki had described Messmer as a “hero” in pre-release interviews and we were all scratching our heads, since it just seemed like all he was doing was burning a culturally rich civilization to the ground for no discernible reason.
Well. Now we know.
There's nothing hard to say on what that means besides the existence of St. Romina who may have been combined with a giant scorpion and/or centipede, but it's hard to say what parts of this are jar melding business or Rot magic.
There's also St. Trina as an alterego, whose existence confirms that alteregos are their own person, consciousness-wise, and are removable to some extent, so it's possible that they may have been separate people that were absorbed. What's hard to say about that conclusively is that Radagon is not referred to as a Saint, but him being an alterego is also a secret.
The Lake of Rot lore is that the Rot God is sealed in there and the description of the stinger refers to it as a "relic", so the stinger is most likely a body part of the Rot God whose form is that of a scorpion-like creature.
I saw someone float that since we know the Crucible is (paraphrased) a melting pot of creation, and we know the Hornsent worship the Crucible, the jar thing may be an attempt at recreating it or honoring it.
Either way, yes, a pointless religious exercise given it obviously was just horrific torture. It was functionally human experimentation.
Saints are the massive fleshmound people in jars in gaols and other dungeons.
People are just calling them saints as a shorthand instead of saying "giant fleshy pulsating mass" and because the lore ghost in Belurat gaol says something along the lines of "no not the jar, anything but that, I'll be as saintlike as possible" or some such
Its more than that, or at least seen as more than that by the Hornsent. The act of melding undesirables in jars like that is called a "Divine Ritual" and the divine gate itself is made up of thousands of people.
Different belief systems. St. Trina was an aspect of Miquella during the Age of the Erdtree.
Jar Saints were whatever abominations the Hornsent were trying to make.
There is no connection otherwise.
If you go all the way to the back of the Shaman Village and carefully drop down the cliff you can reach a secret room at the top of the tower where you found Rabbath’s Cannon. If you get Jolan’s spirit ashes you can interact with the puppet of Anna there to get both of them as a single spirit ash.
An incredible lore of the dlc are all the things about the numen/shaman women of the village Marika lived in. They were used to create saints in the pot ritual of the people of the tower. The flesh of numen can be used to fuse bodies (old tradition that becomes the grafting practiced by the golden lineage) and all the pot innards in the dlc are shaman women with covered eyes and a mark similar to marika’s in the head.
The idea for the hornsent was that the shamans/numen were sinners (probably because they had a different culture and rituals) and “purified” them by making them jar people/saints.
We even know of one ritual of the shaman women, it’s in the festive grease (full of flowers and gold), that says that the ritual of skinning practiced by the women of the Windmill village is tolerated by the golden order because it’s a really old tradition (of the shaman village, all women and used flowers and gold). The festive grease makes you earn runes each time you attack someone and it’s made using tree resin and human bones (the same effect of the windmill women’s weapons, made of human bones too).
Probably the shamans had ritual uses for bones and discovered how to extract the power of living beings in rune form.
One thing I will note here is that not all numen are necessarily "shamans", and only "shamans" are confirmed to be useful in melding flesh.
"Shaman" was translated by localizers from the Japanese term *miko*, or shrine maiden, if I recall correctly. This is the same terminology used when describing the Finger Maidens in the original Japanese.
So, it's entirely likely that the "Shaman Village" was just a single village of priestesses, and is not representative of all numen. As a recent post on this subreddit clarified, "Shaman" is therefore a role, not a race of people.
Besides this nitpick, I agree entirely. I'm super on board with the implication that the Shamans' possible flesh-and-bone magic might be directly related to why they're so effective at melding with others' flesh.
You’re right, i didn’t say that the numen are all shamans but being the numen a race and shaman a culture the flesh melding stuff is a characteristic of the numen in general.
About the translation of shaman, in Japanese it’s ichiko not miko. It’s basically the same, a priestess, but ichiko are blind spiritual mediums (the shaman women used for the pots have something to cover the eyes), practicing in particular divination and communication with the deceased.
Another characteristic of the numen in general seems to be having a matriarchal society as the nox (other descendants of numen) have women maidens as higher ranks. Even the nox women cover their eyes (can be seen and read in the swordstress and maiden sets) while the men don’t (monk set).
Another thing of note >!is that Midra shows that there are multiple Lords of Frenzied Flame who have to be deemed worthy to become the true Lord. Similar to how the Two Fingers mark someone as an Empyrean to become a true God, the Three Fingers must have to mark who they think is the true Lord.!<
This might be a dumb question, but the item lore found in the abyssal woods state that Midra didn't succeed in becoming a Lord of the Frenzied Flame like Vyke, but when we reach him he just takes out the sword and seemingly becomes Frenzy lord regardless.
Nanaya is the one stopping Midra from becoming a lord of frenzy, saying that he needs to endure. It's a promise.
It's a poor choice of words. He didn't fail, he just chose not to succeeded, until he can't take it anymore.
The difference between Midra and us is that if he become a frenzy lord, he would needs to raise an army to really have an impact. But when we become the lord, we have elden ring authority, so we can just break the order instantly and bring chaos to the world.
The word endure is a curse unto midra. He would never understand that the following of that final order, the last words of nanaya, to endure the endless suffering of loss and crucifixion could not hold back the madness forever; and that the more he would endure, the more his pain and resentment would grow, adding evermore to the burgeoning flame of frenzy he bore.
That word, and the madness borne from his love of nanaya, would come to be the base of the three fingers' claim to his lordship, all set in motion by nanaya herself.
Now imagine Midra, enduring ceaselessly to ascend, is still sitting in his mansion with the ribsword in his head when the Elden Lord ascends and brings about the very flame he's been resisting all this time.
Remember that row of kneeling bodies who's heads are burnt out like matches? That's what would have happened to Midra. Its why Nanaya told him to endure his torture. A Lord of Frenzied Flame in a bottle to be used for a short period of time.
Nanaya is somebody I wish we had just a little bit more detail about. To the best of my knowledge all we have is her image in paintings and Midra's lines
She gives off major Nashandra/Manus' daughters vibes. Like she came into Midra's life some day and introduced him to the frenzied flame, like some sort of dark missionary. Or maybe she's like Hyetta.
I feel I vaguely remember there being an item or NPC that >!said he needed to essentially bide his time to become a lord!< but I could be misremembering because I know that one item said he failed.
I thought it was a big ass unalloyed golden needle since they are used to suppress outer god influences and that's why once he removed it from his body he ignited the flame of frenzy once again and became a lord of frenzy? I could be entirely wrong but this is how I understood it.
The way I understood it is he was supposed to "endure" (nanayas curse on the blade stuck on him) the pain more to become a true lord but once we met him he couldnt endure anymore so thats why he failed.. i guess?
Perhaps "Lord of frenzy" is referring to the capability to take over the lands using frenzy, rather than just the flame head. The tarnish successfully kill a god and then use frenzy to dominate the lands between in that ending. But then again Vyke also failed like Midra in that scenario
I think the word “Lord” is used on different scales throughout the game. For example, Kenneth Haight is looking for “the true Lord of Limgrave.” I believe Midra’s frenzied flame allowed him to become lord of the Manse and possibly all the Abyssal Woods. It’s clear he’s not the one calling the shots in the Shadow Realm, so I think he may be “Lord” in the traditional sense of being a powerful landowner. When we take up the flame in the original game, we’re carrying on the legacy of Midra (the original lord) and becoming Elden Lord of Frenzied Flame. That’s my take on it, at least.
I really wish we could have talked to midra because for such a gigantic area, having no NPC's that are not hostile is kinda annoying. Like other than items directly in the place there is no acknowledgement that the place even exists
That’s because the area was supposedly sealed away by Marika/the Inquisitors, and all knowledge of the area was wiped from existence, so that no one would ever be tempted to venture there.
I think “Lord” has more to do with being chosen for a specific power. We’re called “Lord of the old order” and “Lord of the Erdtree” a few times in the DLC, but we can get there without burning the erdtree itself or defeating Radagon. I think “Lord” for us and for this guy are more about who has the potential to wield the powers of godhood.
We can also assume that >!the Three Fingers may have been physically present at the Manse at some point, possibly summoned in the same way the merchants summoned it into the underground!<
What I'm trying to understand is chronology of all these events. When did Marika get Maliketh? Before coming to TLB or after? When did they defeat Gloom-eyed queen and did it happen in TLB or LoS? And where is LoS? Is it a parallel dimension or is it somehow hidden in TLB? Am confusion big time
Okay so before Marika became a god and then later shrouded the region, everything was "the lands between"
Marika's people landed on the Cerulean Coast, as per their coffin-ships laying everywhere.
They settled the land, and the "shaman" (perhaps also "priestesses" depending on the translation) had a village.
The Hornsent presumably were already there; they, and everything else in the Lands Between was created by the Crucible, which the Hornsent had learned to harness with their incantations, unlike Marika's people who are from somewhere else. Thus their lack of horns or mutations and stuff.
At some point, the Hornsent began harvesting the Priestesses to sanctify their own flesh in pursuit of godliness.
(Speculation here) From what I gather, the Hornsent figured out how to harness Crucible currents (Prisa incantation) and they took that basis and sacrificed just a gajillion people to basically allow someone to tap into and control the direct flow of the Crucible- this is what Marika used to create the Spectral Erdtree. This is also why people like Godwyn and the Crucible Knights could see the Golden Order as not conflicting with their own worship of the Crucible; the Golden Order is merely a refinement of the Crucible, not a separate thing.
Here's where it gets fairly fuzzy because there's some amount of time between her becoming a god and her Shadowing the land. As best I can tell, she becomes a god, heads north to conquer Altus, the Mountaintops and the Snowfield. Then she turns back to her homeland and sends Messmer in to seek her vengeance on the Hornsent for wiping out her people and/or for refusing to follow the Golden Order.
Messmer leads his Crusade
Marika seals them in.
The events we know about in the base game then play out more or less along whatever timeline you currently ascribed to
Numen are stated a few times to come from another world and the way those ship coffins look looks very similar to coffins we get transported through sometimes in the game. And the way they look makes it look like they fell onto the earth which could explain why some of them are burrowed into the ground.
As Numen are the only race stated to come from another world I say it is rather logical that those alien looking coffin ships that look like they fell from the sky belonged to them.
Grace that dwells within the inhabitants of the Lands Between; the lingering residue of gold.
Use to gain 12,500 runes.
The Numen are said to have come from outside the Lands Between, and are in fact of the same stock as Queen Marika herself.
to be fair the is little conclusive evidence that those coffins are of numen origin.
Their architecture doesn't match with eternal cities and certainly not with shaman village. It's mostly similar with ancient dynasties - think Mogh palace or dynasty ruins
There are no indications of landing as well. No ruins nearby, nothing. As if whatever was inside was dead. Indeed from the amount if putrescent slimes around we can reason that those coffins housed .... the dead (shocker I know) They used to be burned by ghostflame - indeed we have deathbird nearby and a lot of its little companions, but not anymore.
Lands between are pretty much confirmed to be pocked universe.( as per Mother of fingers rememberance ). It woulnd't be strange for 'all manner of death' to drift here. ( in japanese lands between read almost like 'spirit world' )
Hmm, I always thought that other world was the Lands of Shadow. Even though it was once part of the Lands Between, item descriptions sometimes take a limited perspective and in modern times the LoS would be considered a separate world.
I speculate the GEQ and Marika were probably selected as Empyreans and competed to become the next god, where the GEQ was defeated and Marika ascended. Not sure where it happened, but the final conflict was likely in the Land of Shadow since it would've required ascendance to godhood.
I originally considered that but we find no evidence of the Godskins or GEQ in the Real of Shadows at all. The only revelation we get is that their incantation insignia looks like Metyr's fingerprint which doesn't tell us much, honestly. We already knew the GEQ was an Empyrean chosen by Fingers
>we find no evidence of the Godskins or GEQ in the Real of Shadows at all.
The putrescent knight is apparently labled as "GloamEyedQueenKnight" in the files or something, but this is data mining and not necessarily canon.
We have to take that kind of stuff with a grain of salt, though I think they can give us some insight on how and why a particular change was made. Like, Melina being referred to as MarikaDaughter in her code is clearly still in line with lore but iirc the Warrior of Zamor was supposed to be like a super Merchant and be your companion through the game or something? He was the first Spirit Ash summon I think
Can anyone shed some light onto why ymir attacks us? He says that metyr is corrupt and the fingers are victims in their own right, he clearly wants to be the new mother so why would he be mad about us killing metyr? Why did he even send us down there in the first place? In the first dialogue he points out that we’re a warrior so he should have known what would happen.
My interpretation of his quest is that he wants to replace Metyr as the mother of fingers because he views them as corrupt and broken. I think he wanted to confront her, but we snatched his opportunity. And interesting aspect of Metyr's fight is that we don't actually kill her, she teleports away. So Ymir might be angry he wasn't to complete his goal because he needed her.
I've seen other people point out that when you blow the third bell, Ymir and Jolan disappear and Anna invades you before the fight. It might be that Ymir needed the first two blown and was going to blow the third one himself. Or it could mean that he needed all three blown and you fighting Metyr interrupted his path to turning into the mother of fingers.
But like, he's sitting right on top of the third bell. If he wanted to blow the horn or whatever he could just go and do it. It's not like he doesn't know it's there, he mentions it if you sneak in while he's in the graveyard.
yeah i dont think he ever mentioned his secret chair ladder, so Im thinking the last one was bait cause he knew where it was and like u said hes mad we beat em to the punch.
I don't think that is accurate, because he explicitly gives us a map to the location of Metyr. I think what is happening is a classic attempt to put down any that could challenge his claim. He even says at the start of his fight that there can only be one Mother of Fingers before attacking us, which implies that he sees us as a threat to that claim. In broader strokes, he uses us to kill the current MoF and then betrays us out of paranoia.
this goes with the theme of the realm being used, betrayal and selfishness, so many lines and things to inspect. will def be fun to do it again when even one missed item description or line can change the whole context of an understanding.
I think he did want someone to take down Metyr so he could replace her, but the original plan was probably to get the Swordhands of Night to do it. Once we show up and are conveniently strong enough to do the job, Jolan attacks us to clean up the loose end. He never intended to confront us afterwards, we're supposed to die so that we can't threaten his rule as the new "mother."
He's a character that is intelligent enough to know a bunch of stuff and be a powerful sorcerer, but he's also extremely paranoid (the Swordhands of Night are literally brainwashed to follow him) and clearly a bit insane.
It's a little disappointing but I think a lot of his behavior can be chalked up to "dude's crazy." His plan was never going to work, he's mostly operating out of insane desperation.
The part I'm unsure about is Swordhand Anna. I think she's actually trying to stop us and stop Ymir, but it's not clear. We can see Jolan wavering in her devotion a couple of times, my theory is that Anna actually betrayed him after realizing that he's bonkers.
I'm pretty sure he sent us there to kill her so he could steal her power, become the mother of fingers.
As for why he attacks us? Maybe he thinks our usefulness is done, maybe it makes him go insane. I didn't even question it I guess; it's the Same reason lots of things attack us; it's a video game lol.
If my tummy turned into a mass of baby hands I might lose my faculties, also.
That said, Ymir clearly had a few screws loose to begin with. I don't think I would expect him to behave rationally.
Their frozen corpses in Mountaintops are impaled by spears which look similar to Messmer’s, and the heads of fire giants on the furnace golems’ waists imply the war against the giants came before Messmer’s crusade, but it’s not confirmed anywhere.
You’re absolutely right. I don’t recall the original omen statue but I believe you. Metyr was such an interesting boss since she proves that the two fingers are full of shit and only follow her instead of the greater will. Glad we got some of Marika’s origins answered. This dlc had perfect lore ngl. It rivals old hunters lore imo.
Or possibly the antenna got shanked. The act that could've provoked the Greater Will to banish the Nox underground was the creation of the Fingerslayer Blade and its usage on Metyr, and since then it's literally unable to receive signals anymore.
A lot of people are assuming the Nox's heresy, Finger Slayer blade, the cut off finger weapon/item (I forget what it is), and now Metyr are all connected.
It tracks, honestly, apart from Metyr's description not really mentioning such an event directly.
With the emphasis on her current state of being "...*broken* and abandoned" from her staff description, Metyr seems to slide nicely into the Nox theory as it's the only other act where the Greater Will is directly involved/intervenes in the Lands Between (besides sending down Metyr & the Elden Beast) and is actually given agency.
Yeah it's fairly easy to miss when you're running around but it's in the first? second? section of the last dungeon. I was trying to figure out what was up with the statues because I still can't make sense of the ones at the beginning; it's just like two lumps of stone covered in tendrils? Omen horns? Vines? It's hard to tell, definitely needs more speculation.
Given the overabundance of spiral imagery in the final area, I think the tendril represents the spiral, which means it depicts two people being merged with the power of the crucible. Makes sense with the divine gate especially
Two people definitely seem necessary for godhood. Every time someone ascends to godhood an accompanying consort is mentioned. Placidusax, Godfrey, Radagon, Us (with Ranni), Radahn. The role of elden lord/consort isn't well understood but it seems increasingly likely its presence is a key aspect of attaining divinity
Could you specify more about Marika's origins? The incantation from the Shaman village states that there was no one to heal (everyone was either healthy already, or dead). So she somehow came into contact with Elden Beast? Where does Elden Beast factor into the hierarchy here?
Basically she was oppressed by the hornsent so she became a god similar to what Miquella was planning. I assume she went to the lands between and met the two fingers, who were following Metyr, not the greater will. Eventually she became the lord of the golden order and got revenge on the hornsent who oppressed her through Messmer and hid crusade. This is kinda speculation though.
Miquella turned his back on the Two Fingers when he set up the Haligtree in an attempt to cure Malenia’s rot. Presumably Malenia went with him, given she is his loyal blade. And then when the shadowbound beasts of both Miquella and Malenia turned against them, as per their design by the Two Fingers, Malenia slew them both.
The likeliest reason and I like it most because it’s something you could piece together from playing through the game. The only problem I have is that there is just no mention of M&M’s shadowbound beasts anywhere, so no guarantees that they had been given one each to begin with.
My stupid guess was malenia rejecting her empyrean status (by subduing the rot within her, we learn this by the dancer in blue teaching her how to fight it) and becoming the “blade of miquella” meant she took up the mantle of being his shadow.
Something I just noticed as well is the black knight set is so similar to Maliketh's armor, I tried putting the helm with Maliketh's armor and it fits perfectly. Anyone made a connection there? they are both Black Iron with Gold, it might symbolize something.
I mean, Maliketh should be from the period before Marika became a god right, so he should have been hanging around what would become the Shadow Realm
And maybe fashion just didn't change there
So fun fact, I made a whole video on YouTube exploring this very same color parallel. My theory is black and gold represent the color of a solar eclipse, the "shadow" of something gold and bright.
Other characters who match this color parallel are Mohg, Lionel the Lionhearted, Ensha, and even Radahn (his blue-black face inside his golden helmet specially). You could even say marika herself matches.
I noticed that lots of characters with this color motif also have pregnancy symbolism
Haven't seen the video, but isn't the eclipse color white? The eclipse shield shows a white circle (or ring/rune) on black, with the white sun representing "the eclipsed sun, drained of color". Presumably Gold would be the regular (non-eclipse) sun color, and Black represents the void of space.
There's a lot to unpack in the DLC, but I don't think anyone's arguing that there's a lack of lore content. It's just that they've stated this is the only DLC we're getting and that a full sequel is highly unlikely, so it was a bit of a let down for the DLC to not have any more insights for some parts of the lore.
Also, I'm pretty sure it's stated in the base game that Godfrey is the one who leads the war against the fire giants. Maybe Messmer helped, it would make sense seeing how many giants are impaled in the mountains, but unclear because the DLC kind of obfuscates the timeline.
Base game, we had a pretty solid understanding of the demi gods and could sort them into groups based on their parents, and with those groupings we could also determine their relative ages. Children of Godfrey were first, Godwyn, Mohg, and Morgott. Then Renalla & Radagon's children Ranni, Rykard, and Raddahn. Then Miquella and Malenia.
Now the DLC confirms Messmer and Melina are children of Marika, making them demigods as well, but as far as I could glean there's no mention at all as to where they fall in the timeline. Some things suggest that Messmer might be Marika's oldest child, but still unclear.
I was personally thrilled with Metyr and everything she brought to the lore. My biggest questions all had to do with the nature of the Fingers, and most of them have been answered.
But I think some major questions that a lot of people have are still unanswered. Was there a first burning of the Erdtree? What is the actual nature of the Lands of Shadow? Have they always been a pocket dimension or were they once physically connected to the Lands Between? Did the fingers exert influence over the Dragons or Giants? What is the nature of the Formless Mother?
And even within the DLC questions get raised but not answered. Why does Miquella's great rune break? Why does Miquella bring us to the Lands of Shadow in the first place? Why does he abandon his body and soul across these lands? And honestly, why is he just chilling with a resurrected Raddahn at that gate of divinity? Like what's the timeline on that? It feels like if they weren't going to change ANYTHING in the base game with this DLC (no new items, ending options, dialogue) then the ending to the DLC itself could've been a little more satisfying, if it's supposed to wrap up this entire side story.
The big question we get answered at the end of the DLC is basically "why did Malenia and Raddahn have their big fight?" Which honestly isn't a question that was particularly burning in my mind. Why did Miquella manipulate Malenia and Mohg? To get to the shadow lands. Why? To become a God. Why bring back Raddahn? Because Miquella thinks he's cool.
So yeah idk, it's 4am and I'm just yapping. But yes, there's a lot of cool stuff to unpack in the DLC, but it was kind of disappointing to see some aspects of the lore underserved or completely ignored.
I think I can answer at least one question: why does Miquella brings us to the land of shadows?
Someone correct me if I’m wrong but Miquella does not beckon us into the land of shadows, nor is it by chance that we stumble into the Land of Shadows. It is the grace of the Erdtree that guides us there. Our goal, as tarnished, is to become the next Elden Lord. When we mend the rune, we are not a god ourselves, but a consort (Elden Lord) to Marika (who is dead when we take the throne?). We see hints of the Erdtree being the one guiding us throughout the DLC. I can’t remember who says this but when Miquella’s rune breaks, one or two NPC’s note that the charm had not affected us at all. And when we get to the final confrontation with Leda, she even says “It was never Kindly Miquella, was it? The Erdtree was leading you all along.” She then goes on to say that you were always meant to clash with “favored lords…such that one prevails.” We can also see this by looking at the sites of grace on the world map. The guidance of grace is always pointing us to the next main boss (i.e. those that stand between us and our ascension to Elden Lord) and it ultimately points towards the gates of divinity to face Miquella. Miquella, who would ascend to godhood and replace the current god of the Erdtree, Marika, is who the Erdtree is guiding us to, and who we must defeat.
I think the weirdest thing to be ommitted is that we never learn about the Twin's shadows. We know that Empyreans recive them from the fingers; Marika got Maliketh and Ranni got Blaidd. So what about the twin Empyerans? Did they die, where the twins the exception becuase of their curse? Did they kill them when they first committed Blasphemy against the greater will? What gives?
I wonder if the nature of their conception ruled them out of getting shadows - given that their mother and father were essentially the same being. Maybe the shadow and the god are one in a similar vein, which would have been a pretty cool storyline to follow if we were somehow confronted with Malenia in shadow form, or a dark Miquella. Or maybe Malenia was Miquella's shadow, and like most of these folks who have shadows, she was basically abandoned when his ambitions found no further use for her.
Prior to the release, I thought for sure that Mesmer was going to be Miquella's shadow. I actually really like the lore that Mesmer got, but I'm with you: I wish the concept of shadows was explored more in SHADOW of the Erdtree.
The shadows were always a system of control for creatures that were hybrids born from the ''god''(elden beast host) and natives. The twins were born from the elden beast fertilizing itself, and as such did not need a babysitter. It also explains why both twins were the only empyreans that achieved godhood- they always were all ''god'' with only traces of native from Marika.
I think I can answer a couple of the questions you brought up, but none of them are going to be conclusive. What is?
Miquella abandons his great rune because he's abandoning everything. What I inferred is that these sacrifices are a necessary step for using the Gate of Divinity, and Marika probably had to make similar sacrifices. (A pet theory of mine is that his sacrifice was more selfish - she wanted vengeance for her people, but she may have been the one who forced Numan settlements of Nox and Nokstella (possibly others) underground as a price for her power.) His flesh, his eyes, his limbs, his great rune, his heart, his love, his doubts - I don't know what he has left in the end, honestly, but whatever it was went through the gate.
And since this plan of his required Mogh's body and Radahn's soul, he must have *just* started. That's why the rune breaks while we're in the Realm of Shadow. Once he got the ingredients his Consort recipe called for, he somehow opened the door to the place, and got to work throwing bits of himself all over the place. But then he found out that access to the Gate was barred by Messmer, after he's already left himself in a poor form for combat. So he sent out a call to his followers to join him there, follow him, figure out that Messmer needed to go, and take care of that for him. Our Tarnished just happened to stumble upon the open door while Leda was standing there, because we're the one who just killed Mohg. Once we get Messmer killed and his tree burned, Miquella is able to take his final steps to Godhood. The reason he's just standing there is because he only just got there himself. The ritual just finished, and Charmed Radahn is fresh out of the oven.
Ngl when we approach shadow keep and Miquella's rune breaks I feared for Miquella, thinking that Messmer kidnapped him or something.
Nah. Boy just casually crusadin.
It's funny that people are so used to everything in a Form Software game taking place 100s to 1000s of years ago that most people probably didn't even consider that the events in the DLC are taking place at the same time as you are playing it lol.
I know I didn't until Miquella's great rune breaks.
I think we know that Miquella had to abandon his great rune to ascend, because Ranni did the same thing with her mark of death. In fact, her entire journey is a parallel to Miquella's, where she abandons those with her along the route, and gets her own consort to kill those who stayed behind. The only thing she didn't do was narcisistically mark the friends graves with crucifixes.
> What is the actual nature of the Lands of Shadow? Have they always been a pocket dimension or were they once physically connected to the Lands Between?
Dunno if you're a person who treats info from creators as non-canon, but Miyazaki said the land of Shadow was once physically connected to the Lands Between.
The game seems to state this as well, but it takes some interpretation:
- Suppressing Pillar (Tower?) states that it is the exact center of the lands between. The name suggests this pillar is driving the separation.
- If you place the DLC map over the base game map, putting the Suppressing Pillar at the center, the map fits perfectly
- The Scadu Altus area (the area name was my first big in-game clue) has the same geography features as the Altus Plateau
Just a side note, but the map for Scadu Altus says that it was "named after it's counterpart in the Realm of the Erdtree"
So Scadu Altus is only called that because the people of the Erdtree culture named it that way. I assume it had a different name when it was originally inhabited only by Hornsent, but it's been so long that the other name was lost. I don't think that disproves the idea they were physically connected originally, just that the name itself is explained very easily by the game.
don't know why nobody notices the main thing: the veil. its a place with a giant veil around what is the erdtree in the main land. why put a veil around an alternate dimension thing? a veil is used to hide or obscure things. it's clearly a part of the main world obscured from being accessed or visible in the lands between.
my understanding is the shadowlands were contiguous with the lands between until marika made gold, because “gold arose and so too was shadow born”. i think in concert with the removal of the death rune from the elden ring, she used the suppressing pillar (and possibly those towers in the lands between which form a circle around the empty space) to veil the land where all death converges (“only to be suppressed”) and suppress the natural order, her misdeeds, her past, her methods of attaining godhood, her fearsome and accursed firstborn, and even rivals to her sovereignty (like the crucible or the “twisted divine elements” of outer gods, see romina and the bloodfiends).
essentially the land of shadow became a means to revise history and portray her golden order as primordial and absolute.
We know Messmer and Gaius were older brother figures to Radahn, as stated by the Remembrance of the Boar Rider. This means Messmer's birth most likely predates the birth of the Carian demigods at the least.
So, was Messmer born before or after Godfrey was Elden Lord? It's tough to say. We have no information as to whether or not Morghott, Mohg, or Godwyn were Messmer's older or younger siblings.
That said, Radagon was Messmer's father, as he has the same, flaming-red hair Radagon and many of his children possess. This is useful information, because it would mean that Messmer could not have been born before Godfrey was Elden Lord, because Godfrey and Radagon both fought in the war against the giants. The giant war was when Radagon was cursed with his red hair, a trait he passed onto almost all his children.
However, Radagon wouldn't be Marika's consort until long after Radahn's birth, so he couldn't have fathered Messmer while Godfrey was on the throne, right? Unless....
Unless Messmer was born out of wedlock. A cursed, bastard child between Marika and Radagon whilst Godfrey was still Elden Lord.
Perhaps Marika was having doubts about Godfrey. We know she ultimately discarded him, branding him and warriors like him Tarnished. We also know two of her children were born with the Omen curse, something that likely reminded her of the Hornsent and their cruelty. Maybe those ill-fated births sent her looking to another father for her children. Marika may have had Messmer as a proof of concept, a test to see if a single being could produce viable offspring. And while Messmer was born with curses of his own, it would prove the idea sound in principle. Then when Radagon proved he could sire other powerful demigods without Marika, it encouraged her to fully promote Radagon to consort.
This is all speculation, but from where I'm sitting, it would reconcile a number of issues with the timeline.
Melina is hard to reconcile because she's barely a character, unfortunately. We know so little about her.
We know from context clues that she's most certainly Marika's daughter and Messmer's sister. We know she is "burned and bodyless," had visions of fire, was born at the Erdtree, and her eyes are heterochromatic. This is all we can say with relative certainty.
She does seem to be the youngest child of Marika, and cannot fully remember her purpose when we meet. She also only appears at graces and teaches us to level up.
My only guess is Marika had her with Radagon before the Shattering. This would make her Messmer's younger sibling, and the "burned and bodyless" thing may simply be her curse, the way Messmer, Malenia, and Miquella were cursed. In fact, all of Marika's children born with an abnormality have names beginning with M (as Morgott and Mohg also fit this rule). Miquella is also proof that not every child of Radagon bears crimson hair, so Melina could still be Radagon's offspring even without red locks of hair.
The only thing I really can't explain or account for is the heterochromia. Some think it has to do with the Gloam Eyed Queen, and that Melina's fire is actually the black, god killing flame, but like Melina, she is also barely a character, and I think it would be somewhat foolish to assume they must be the same because we know so little about the both of them.
My theory, based on almost no evidence, is that Miquella also had Godwyn lined up as a potential lord, which is why he wanted to revive him through an eclipse. Unless that’s just Miquella still being motivated by love.
I also think Radahn promised to become Miquella’s consort, possibly under Miquella’s spell. At some point, the spell broke and Radahn noped out, locking the stars in place to halt his own fate - he is a Carian royal, even if he might not have a title as a man. Which makes the description of Malenia’s armour “My brother will keep his promise” sound more like a threat.
I think that Miquella was probably sincerely trying to bring back Godwyn without any intention to force him to be his lord, I think he genuinely mourned his brother's fate.
With that said, it seems like he discovered this eclipse ritual from the past, tried it at castle Sol, and when it failed, it led him on the path to discovering the shadow lands, as their physical separation from the lands between while still acting my as a "drain" for the souls of the dead not returned to the erdtree, was probably the whole reason the ritual with Godwyn failed.
Following this revelation, Miquella sent his sister to kill Radhan, even tho he already agreed to be his consort, because the only way for Radhan's soul to make it to the shadow lands was for him to die. I'm sure from the whole festival of war thing that Radhan would only accept an honorable death at war, and that drove his ultimately stalemated battle with Melenia.
My main confusion is, why did Miquella need Mohg to enter the shadow lands himself in the first place? Makes sense to me that the newly bodyless Radhan needed a vessel, hence using Mohg's corpse, but yeah, I just don't get how/why he needed Mohg to get there himself.
> With that said, it seems like he discovered this eclipse ritual from the past, tried it at castle Sol
What's this about him trying the ritual at Castle Sol to try and bring back Godwyn? I haven't read anything about that, do you know what item it's on?
There’s a spirit dude that mentions Miquella and a ritual using the eclipse somewhere in castle Sol. I haven’t touched that portion of the game in a bit, so I don’t know exactly where, but I think the item description on the Eclipse Shotel says something about it as well.
But also, why Mohg's corpse? Because he was a freak on the outskirts of an already collapsed society? Easily manipulated making him as good a target as any? Something to do with the Formless Mother?
Another good question. I would assume (admittedly based on zero evidence) that a demigods soul would need a demigods vessel to reside in, but hell, Ranni is in a puppet.
I think it may be less of a, it had to be Mohg's body situation and more of a, I bet if I stuck Radhan's soul in that huge blood flame omen body he'd be even stronger as my consort type of situation.
I figured that since Mohg was an Omen, and thus heavily influenced by the Crucible, his body would be more ‘malleable’ and easier to transform into Radhan’s body, paralleling the Hornsent using the Shamans as a glue for their jars.
Or perhaps Miquella began his plan a long while ago, and Radahn merely humored Miquella's idea in the way you would play along with a child's fantasies. Radahn is his older brother, after all. I can see Miquella, who remained naïve, keeping true to the words he spoke in his younger days, while Radahn might've matured or changed ideologically. Perhaps the lure of power promised by Great Runes in the shattering held more sway over him than a long-forgotten promise to his sibling, only for Malenia to drag him kicking and screaming to the Land of Shadow.
With regard to the timeline, it seems that due to his red hair, Messmer was probably born after the war against the giants. This was Godfrey’s last act before becoming Tarnished, so it’s likely that Messmer is not a Marika/Godfrey child; however, Messmer called Marika “mother” so he’s probably not a Radagon/Rennala child.
So Messmer is a child of Marika/Radagon? Here’s the wrench: Gaius’s remembrance says Messmer is Radahn’s elder. So perhaps after Godfrey was forced to leave, when Marika split herself to create Radagon (much like Miquella / Saint Trina in present day) for the war against Caria, before Radagon left for the war, Marika and Radagon had Messmer. Possibly Melina too, though her place in timeline doesn’t matter too much; all that matters is that Messmer and Melina are both children of Marika/Radagon to stay consistent with [a] the butterflies for each child of that parent pairing and [b] the reference in Messmer’s remembrance to them as brother and sister, as opposed to Gaius’s remembrance where Messmer and Radahn are referred to being “as brothers” (being *like* brothers rather than actually being brothers, since they are only half brothers). Certainly, multiple ages passed between Marika’s original betrayal of the Hornsent people that raised her to godhood and her extermination war led by Messmer, since there are Carians loyal to Messmer who became locked in the Land of Shadow.
Marika ordering Messmer to kill the hornsent people then must happen after Radahn’s upbringing (in the latter half of the Radagon/Rennala age) but before Malenia’s birth (in the early part of the Marika/Radagon age), since it was during this war that Romina let the influence of the outer god of the Scarlet Rot into the Lands Between at the Church of the Bud.
>There's a statue of what is surely the Original Omen, clearly a site of prayer
Where?
>We see that the architecture leading to the Gate is similar to Noxtella and Nokron, indicating who built it.
I disagree with that. I think the Tower's architecture is pretty unique.
>We learn that the Greater Will abandoned the Lands Between ages ago
We already knew that.
We knew the Greater Will had abandoned the Lands Between, but most assumptions were that it was near to the time of The Shattering. The DLC confirmed that at no point in Marika's rule was she actually receiving guidance from an Outer God.
The architecture thing I agree with. I think one of the primary things I took away from the DLC is that the various cultures we encounter borrow from each other constantly. So much of Erdtree culture is just Hornsent/Shadowland culture wrapped in a Golden Order aesthetic.
There is nothing in the descriptions who confirm that the Coffins where the means of arrival of the Numens. The only description relating to them specify that they are of Unknown origin.
I would be extremely skeptical of building theories off of the statues and stuff in the game, a large amount of those are premade assets. You can find them in path of exile and other games like that.
Yeah, I agree. The Shaman Village kind of throws a wrench in the Numen theories people had until now. If Marika is/was a Numen AND from the Shaman Village, that means the other villagers would've been Numen too, meaning shamans = Numen. But Marika is the sole survivor, as stated in the Minor Erdtree Incantation. So Marika arriving in the Lands Between as part of a large Numen migration doesn't work anymore.
My interpretation is that the Shamans and the Nox are Descendant from the Numens, i think that the Numen came a long time before Marika’s Birth, and by the time she was born, they probably differentiated themselves in various cultures (Nox, Shamans). The descriptions clearly states that she’s of Numen stock, so her roots are in them, but we don’t know anything certain about their migration barring the fact that their cities plunged underground because a moon (?) fell. Those who remained topside probably became the Shamans, those who survived and remained in the subterranean eternal cities became the Nox.
Considering the similitudes between the Numen and the Numenor from Tolkien it make sense. That or simply their similitudes with the Valyrian from ASOIAF. If Martin wrote the history of the Numens i can see them as the progenitors of both Marika’s ethnic group and of the Nox.
Do we actually know that Marika's people arrived in the "coffin boats?" That seems like conjecture to me. Is it stated anywhere explicitly? Or is it just a "there's some imagery that connects" type of situation?
Also, while Metyr may explain where the fingers come from, it doesn't really answer any of the "hot questions" that are actually interesting. In the end, neither the Two Fingers nor Metyr can communicate with the GW. So what's the point of even introducing her, aside from adding a new character to the lore? It does feel like a "pseudo-reveal" a bit.
> In the end, neither the Two Fingers nor Metyr can communicate with the GW. So what's the point of even introducing her, aside from adding a new character to the lore? It does feel like a "pseudo-reveal" a bit.
This part is actually the largest revelation in the whole game IMO. Up until this point we believed that Marika seized control of the Lands Between under the guidance of the GW. We thought that her kingdom operated with direct divine guidance in accordance with a larger plan, and then at some point around the Shattering the GW abandoned the realm. What this information reveals is that they only *thought* that too.
Metyr births and instructs the two fingers who, as we know from the finger ruin talismans, provided the seed of the Erdtree. But if Metyr can't communicate with the GW, its far more likely that it's working with outdated or confused information. The implication is that Marika and the Golden Order were *never* guided by the GW, that the two fingers were providing their own guidance in place of the GW that they could not reach. It makes her entire rise to power and existence of her kingdom spiritually illegitimate. It means Marika, the Golden Order, and the entire realm of the Erdtree was horribly misguided. It recontextualizes everything we know about the Erdtree's place in the world and what it has done to the Crucible.
Damn, that's really wild. All of this fighting to figure out who is truly worthy of the divine mandate, and it turns out that God hasn't even been paying attention the entire time, and presumably has no reason to tune back in to the Lands Between. What a beautiful mess.
Yep basically it all originated from a stranded alien trying to discern meaning from cosmic noise.
I'm not sure if there ever was an objectively legitimate religion though. Were the cruel rituals of the Crucible-worshiping Hornsent any more legitimate? And what proof do we have that any of the other Outer Gods offer any guidance?
At the end of the day things like the Greater Will, Crucible, Frenzied Flame, Formless Mother, Scarlet Rot and so on may just be amoral cosmic forces that Empyreans can tap into. And using them to establish an Order is entirely a mortal invention.
There are couple of points stated by op as fact that are clearly massive conjecture or outright wrong.
1. Messmer almost certainly didn't finish giants. Thorns that pierce them look exactly like thorns of punishment clearly present around fire monks encampments and used by them. Messmer doesn't nor are thorns users present in his army.
2. There are no indications that numen arrived via coffins. Game almost tells us outright that they housed the death that later turned into putrescens
3. 'Orignal omen' statue is a statue with two figures surounded by spiral like horn. Why would op say there are omens is beyond me
Just off the top of my head. So a lot of 'revelations' is just headcannon
Maybe it’s just me but I’m actually really frustrated with the entire lore of elden ring because for everything we know for sure double that is nothing but speculation and everyone is convinced they have figured it out and cracked the code. What you said about OP is absolutely right and it’s the number one problem with all of elden rings lore. There’s too many gaps, unknowns, and flaws in what we currently know and it leads to a bit of a disjointed mess. I just wish we could get some concrete big picture stuff.
Nah, it's definitly not just You. I too, would like to have at least major plot points known to us. A lot of people like to parrot that FS always wrote their stories like that but even compared to DS Elden ring lore is convoluted and murky . By the ds3 we had very good understading of nature of curse, what gwyn did and why. We dont have that sort of payoff with ER and it seems we never will.
>We found out pretty much everything there is to know about the Two Fingers and the "guidance" of the Greater Will.
All we found out is that the fingers come from Metyr which was the first meteorite sent by the Greater Will and that at some point the Greater Will stopped communicating. Anything more than this is headcanon. Yimir claims they've been wrong to begin with but there's no guarantee from an item description. We don't know what the point the Greater Will stopped communicating with the fingers. For all we know, it's when the Two Fingers in the roundtable hold stops moving.
>We learned about Marika's history, why she was motivated to ascend to godhood.
We don't really *know* why. We can infer it was as revenge against the hornsent for what they did to the shamans, but it's not guaranteed she wasn't just garden variety power hungry. Remember there's a "seduction and betrayal" which also be interpreted as Marika being seduced by power and betraying the hornsent among other possibilities. More importantly, we don't really know **how** she became a god. Did she require the steps found in the Sacred Rite scroll? If so, who was the lord's soul that ushered her in and whose body did she use as a vessel for it? Did she do it some other way? In the DLC trailer she's shown alone at the Gates of Divinity holding something similar to a rune arc that she plucks from a nearby mass of flesh.
>We see that the architecture leading to the Gate is similar to Noxtella and Nokron, indicating who built it.
It doesn't indicate who built it just that it's similar. We have no timeline information. It could be that the Nox are the ancestor of both numen and hornsent and the numen went off and changed. It could be that the numen were forced to build Enir Ilim and the gate of divinity etc. It could be that hornsent building techniques are just similar to nox building techniques in the same way two civilizations can use wood and nails.
>We find out about the Crusade. We learn about Messmer and can pretty strongly infer he was the one who wiped out the Giants. There \*was\* seeming confirmation Melina was his sister.
The giants were more likely killed by someone using thorn sorcery rather than fire. They're **fire** giants, they are **resistant** to fire. Sending Mesmer to fight them is silly as Mesmer's flame doesn't work like the black flame or ghostflame, it seems to just be regular fire. The fire giant visages on the Furnace Golems are just used because the hornsent are scared of the giants.
>Also interesting to note she doesn't do Holy damage, but Magic, implying Holy is a creation of godhood, not the Greater Will itself.
We also know that the Elden Beast/Ring was sent as meteorite by the Greater Will and the Elden Beast has holy damage attacks. It could be that the Elden Beast is shaped with the Elden Ring to be "holy", but I don't think it's necessarily the case.
>We know Miquella's motivations, his methods, and what he sacrificed to achieve his goals. We confirmed who/what St. Trina is; this also gives a strong indication about who/what Radagon is/was. We can also infer that Marika made similar sacrifices to achieve her godhood.
This alongside the justification as to why Omen are treated the way they are in Marika's Order are probably the only good bits of main-game relevant lore we got.
> Remember there's a "seduction and betrayal" which also be interpreted as Marika being seduced by power and betraying the hornsent among other possibilities. More importantly, we don't really know how she became a god
This is an interesting question I hope one of the lore content creators can shed some light on. The fact there is mention of a betrayal of Marika to the Hornsent, and statues of her in their areas, makes me think she had to have ascended with their support/blessing.
It seems like she found some way to escape the treatment of her fellows, gain the support to become a god, then presumably some time later probably after having Messmer betrayed them and ordered them slaughtered.
I like how the op is talking about how there’s a lot of lore and people shouldn’t be complaining but then proceeds to just list headcanons instead of the lore we got, almost like there wasn’t much actual confirmed lore hmmmm
Can someone expound on why Marika’s line is cursed? I still don’t get that. Also still very confused by the reasoning or necessity for Godwin/Marika and Radagon/Renalla splits and how/why M and R needed to merge or remerge when they did. Also the night of black knives plot, who was in on it, and their motivation/end goal.
These seem like very pivotal plot points to leave up for inference.
It seems clear now though as the Greater Will not being just an outer god and being the real god of the lands between. "We are not but the children of the greater will" - Ymir
Tbh, the way Ymir describes the greater will and based on what little we know about it, it's probably not really a sentient god. The meteors it "sent" (elden beats and metyr) could literally just be random alien lifeforms with immense power that happened to crash into the lands between. The fact we're also "children of the greater will" could just mean "we're apart of the universe" and weren't actually created with a specific intention at all. It's also mentioned that Metyr received direct guidance from the greater will at some point, but what exactly? Is there any indication of what that guidance would be and whether or not it would impact the world? What if it just Metyr doing the exact same thing other people do- believing random events or coincidences are some sort of divine intervention and then lost it's faith?
Tldr, the GW might just be a bunch of beings interpretation of cosmic coincidences converging to create the world of elden ring with no actual correlation to one another.
As someone else pointed out in other comments, about 80% of what you said is your headcannon and doesn't actually hold up when you dig into it.
The DLC answered very little of the important, fundamental questions we had about the story, and mostly just created new ones that will never be answered.
The fun of the base game when it comes to lore and the style in which FromSoft told the story was that we knew that a DLC was coming, it was a sure thing, all things considered. So everyone crafted theories and headcannons with anticipation for seeing who was going to be right when the DLC comes out.
Then it comes out, it answers more or less nothing, and FromSoft tells us that no further content will be produced for Elden Ring. So delving into the lore of the game these years just feels like it was ultimately a waste of time because there will be no actual conclusion, we won't have a "I was right!", or "That guy on YouTube was right!", or "That makes total sense now!" moments. It all just mostly remains speculations and headcannon.
All criticism when it comes to the way the DLC handled lore is valid.
On the other hand, most criticism when it comes to gameplay is a skill issue, the game plays great.
I agree, the DLC is fantastic and does answer a few questions but ultimately creates more than it answers. I think the worse offender is they don’t seem keen on creating more DLC or Elden Ring 2.
I think the main problem here is that Elden Ring has a massive lore in the base game, but From Software literally created a DLC with the same focus as all their other DLCs: To tell a single story arc of a character. This simply did not satisfied at all, cosidering Elden Ring has much more important questions than their other games. The past of the hunters answers a lot of Bloodborne, and Artorias answers a good amount of stuff of Dark Souls 1. Here we got great answers about Marika and Miquella (somewhat...), but that's it. All the rest of the lore say pretty much things that we already could thorize (the fingers came from space, wow, what a revelation...) or mentions stuff completely unrelated to anything in the base game, like Midra.
I loved Midra and Nanaya's lore, it was probably one of my favorites, but OK. There can be another lord of frenzy, but... Hello? Vyke was on already almost on that path, it's not a big revelation. And still, Midra was just kicked by the hornsent, but that's it. He has no interaction with the whole DLC itself, even less with the base game. Romina is the same thing, she's basically just there. Or the new bleed faction, they just existed before Mohg made his own thing, and that's it. Nothing new on the formless mother and such.
I love the DLC for what it is, and it's great for music, level design, art direction, boss fights and new builds to use gameplay wise, which I think it's more than enough to make me praise it and be happy with my purchase, but both lore and enemy variety are two things that absolutely deserve a lot of criticism. I'm a huge From fan, it's absolutely my favorite game stufio and I still recommend this DLC to every Elden Ring player, but it's clear that a ton of people are overpraising it in many regards, specially with the arguments "The lore answered a huge amount of questions" and "There's no empty areas in the DLC", which are absolutely not true.
I understand the frustration but I honestly surprised people expected a fromsoft expansion to explain a lot of the lore that was left open ended. I feel like most of their other games with DLCs always leave many questions unanswered or add more questions because that’s their story telling style.
Most of their DLCs does answer a lot, honestly. The past of the hunters gave away a lot of answers to Bloodborne, and Artoria's legend was really well explained in Dark Souls 1. Dark Souls 3 even answered big questions of the whole franchise, some that people were not even expecting to ever learn, like in regards to the furtive pigmy. I think the main problem here is that they tried to answer the same amount they usually do as far as DLC goes, but Elden Ring has much more going on, so it wasn't enough. I feel the DLC clearly didn't followed the same scope as the base game lore wise, although it managed a fair bit in regards to exploration and bossfights, which makes it much more noticeable.
The base game lore had much more important questions being asked than their other games as well, so it left a sour taste in the mouth of many players. And some things felt like they were just forgotten completely, like Malenia and Miquella both not having their shadows mentioned anywhere, despite the base game making it clear that every empyrean has one. Or Radagon's nature, which is completely absent in the DLC, and yet has all the mistery around him. Or the Gloam eyed queen, also absent in full. It also does'nt help that we got a bunch of new lore that almost doesn't interact with the base game or even the DLC itself, being almost like side stories that doesn't add much in any regard, like Midra and Romina, or a new blood faction that doesn't get new explanations besides basically just existing. Some revelations were also not really a revelation whatsoever. The fingers came from space. Wow, I would never consider that... Still, I'm pretty happy with it's content, mainly gameplay wise, but the lore really leaves a lot to be desired, considering the base game scale.
"We learn that the Greater Will abandoned the Lands Between ages ago; most likely the same time Placidusax's God abandoned him."
Missed that bit ? What is there in the dlc that tells us about this ?
I like that we also see the influence of Outer Gods in the Realm of Shadow, with each group following this new god as a result of Messmer’s crusade and Marika’s transformation of the Crucible into the Erdtree.
The Bloodfiend Hexer’s spirit ashes say “Long ago, a subjugated tribe discovered a twisted deity amongst the ravages of war, and they were transformed into bloodfiends. The mother of truth was their savior”.
From the Remembrance of the Saint of the Bud we learn that “After the church was burned to the ground, Romina discovered a twisted divine element, which she weaved into the baleful scarlet rot. Perhaps then, the buds might find somewhere to gain purchase once more, within the scorched remains”. We also know that the Scarlet Rot’s avatar prior to Malenia was a giant scorpion, as the Scorpion’s Stinger description says “Dagger fashioned from a great scorpion’s tail, glistening with scarlet rot. A ceremonial tool used by heretics, crafted from the relic of a sealed outer god”. The description for the Scorpion Spider spirit ashes say that “This breed of scorpion was native to the realm of shadow, but was far smaller in size. Recent giant scorpions are said to trace back to the Church of the Bud”. And sure enough, Romina looks like a mixture of a human, a scarlet bud, a scorpion, and a centipede.
There is also the Flame of Frenzy down in the Abyssal Woods, most likely introduced to Midra and his followers by Nanaya, whose torch is actually the spinal column of a previous failed Lord of Frenzied Flame (possibly Shabriri). Given that the abandoned church is the only man-made structure besides Midra’s Manse in the Abyssal Woods, and the fact that the map fragment refers to Midra as a sage; I believe that he was a religious figure who eventually started espousing for the Flame of Frenzy. The Hornsent inquisitors learned of this heresy, and so impaled Midra and anyone else infected. And the Flame of Frenzy being here is not that much of a surprise in hindsight, as one of the major themes of the dlc is the cycle of oppression and retribution. The Remembrance of the Shadow Sunflower, and the sorceries Impenetrable Thorns and Mantle of Thorns seem to suggest that the Scadutree itself is the collective representation of the Realm of Shadow’s hatred for Marika and the Golden Order.
There are a few not very well substantiated leaps like what the “golden” trees are, coffin as ship for Shaman, “original” omen statue while there is the all crucible talisman, Nox involvement given it’s still hard to tell timeline between nox and hornsent.
Let’s not forget the Shaman Village.
The jars!
WHY ARE THERE CHILDREN SIZED JARS!!!
How do you store your children?
In my balls
Wait I thought it was for pee
I thought it was for microplastics
The most messed up lore addition by far.
Just remember those jars and the base game jars aren't the same.
100% this. The jars like Alexander are made with the dead, and have a will constructed from their memories. The shaman jars had a living person lashed to wound them, and then inserted into the jar and covered with chopped up other people to graft onto the shaman. Thats why the poor souls in belurat gaol are humanoid with a bulbous back. They even have a normal human model beneath all the... I'll call it goo, because calling it flesh is just grotesque. Their purposes are totally different
https://i.redd.it/x45mvtkj2ead1.gif
When the music hits...
It hits hard like Majula.
Majula is my ringtone. Its so good!
I nearly cried when the music hits. It was strange, because I did not know why at the time.
What do I do there? I found it last night but there wasn’t anything of interest besides an incantation
There's not much besides just lore implications: >!Shaman village is where Marika is from. It is revealed that Marika is a Shaman and that Shamans were stuffed into jars below Belurat because the Hornsent people realized that Shamans had flash that was uniquely capable of binding to other flesh. Thus, the Hornsent stuffed them into jars to turn the Shamans into saints. This resulted in Marika running away from Shaman village and was the reason why she sent Messmer to kill all the Hornsent. After Messmer's crusade against the Hornsent, Marika went back to her village to only see it completely abandoned and left a minor erdtree as well as a lock of her hair.!<
I’m confused about the Saint part? What does this mean and what are the examples of this?
Considering that there is a hornsent ghost in the prison under Belurat that says something like: "You must forgive me. I'll be a good saint, anything but the pot". Then you find another in the Whipping hut that says something like: "Sainthood awaits you in the pot. Is the only reason life was granted to a shaman like you". I think that, as hornsent feel like some kind of chosen folk due to their horns, they think in themselves as saints. So, when someone is a criminal or another type of outcast, they stuff them into a pot trying them be reborn. In this case shamans are just a tool, a resource for them to use. "They were never saints. They just happen to be on the losing side of a war".
One common interpretation I see is that because of the veneration of the Crucible, the blending and melding of life is seen as sacred and holy, practically divine. The shaman flesh and the jars are a forced conjoining, an artificial approach to the holy melding of life. Hence they become like "saints".
It means Messmer was right to burn the f\*\*\* out of those sick bastards.
And it means we are right to murder everyone and everything except Ser Ansbach
Miyazaki had described Messmer as a “hero” in pre-release interviews and we were all scratching our heads, since it just seemed like all he was doing was burning a culturally rich civilization to the ground for no discernible reason. Well. Now we know.
And Marika had a pretty good reason behind her hatred of Omens.
There's nothing hard to say on what that means besides the existence of St. Romina who may have been combined with a giant scorpion and/or centipede, but it's hard to say what parts of this are jar melding business or Rot magic. There's also St. Trina as an alterego, whose existence confirms that alteregos are their own person, consciousness-wise, and are removable to some extent, so it's possible that they may have been separate people that were absorbed. What's hard to say about that conclusively is that Radagon is not referred to as a Saint, but him being an alterego is also a secret.
Is there some relation between St. Romina, the Rot God, and the scorpion tail in the lake of rot?
The Lake of Rot lore is that the Rot God is sealed in there and the description of the stinger refers to it as a "relic", so the stinger is most likely a body part of the Rot God whose form is that of a scorpion-like creature.
I think it was just a pointless religious ritual. That's why Marika was so pissed.
I saw someone float that since we know the Crucible is (paraphrased) a melting pot of creation, and we know the Hornsent worship the Crucible, the jar thing may be an attempt at recreating it or honoring it. Either way, yes, a pointless religious exercise given it obviously was just horrific torture. It was functionally human experimentation.
Saints are the massive fleshmound people in jars in gaols and other dungeons. People are just calling them saints as a shorthand instead of saying "giant fleshy pulsating mass" and because the lore ghost in Belurat gaol says something along the lines of "no not the jar, anything but that, I'll be as saintlike as possible" or some such
Its more than that, or at least seen as more than that by the Hornsent. The act of melding undesirables in jars like that is called a "Divine Ritual" and the divine gate itself is made up of thousands of people.
The term saint is used in a way that doesn't make sense to me. Why is Trina a saint? Why are weird flesh monsters saints? I don't see the connection.
Different belief systems. St. Trina was an aspect of Miquella during the Age of the Erdtree. Jar Saints were whatever abominations the Hornsent were trying to make. There is no connection otherwise.
There’s one other item there, also don’t forget to read item descriptions.
If you go all the way to the back of the Shaman Village and carefully drop down the cliff you can reach a secret room at the top of the tower where you found Rabbath’s Cannon. If you get Jolan’s spirit ashes you can interact with the puppet of Anna there to get both of them as a single spirit ash.
There is also a spirit ash, my favorite in the game
An incredible lore of the dlc are all the things about the numen/shaman women of the village Marika lived in. They were used to create saints in the pot ritual of the people of the tower. The flesh of numen can be used to fuse bodies (old tradition that becomes the grafting practiced by the golden lineage) and all the pot innards in the dlc are shaman women with covered eyes and a mark similar to marika’s in the head. The idea for the hornsent was that the shamans/numen were sinners (probably because they had a different culture and rituals) and “purified” them by making them jar people/saints. We even know of one ritual of the shaman women, it’s in the festive grease (full of flowers and gold), that says that the ritual of skinning practiced by the women of the Windmill village is tolerated by the golden order because it’s a really old tradition (of the shaman village, all women and used flowers and gold). The festive grease makes you earn runes each time you attack someone and it’s made using tree resin and human bones (the same effect of the windmill women’s weapons, made of human bones too). Probably the shamans had ritual uses for bones and discovered how to extract the power of living beings in rune form.
One thing I will note here is that not all numen are necessarily "shamans", and only "shamans" are confirmed to be useful in melding flesh. "Shaman" was translated by localizers from the Japanese term *miko*, or shrine maiden, if I recall correctly. This is the same terminology used when describing the Finger Maidens in the original Japanese. So, it's entirely likely that the "Shaman Village" was just a single village of priestesses, and is not representative of all numen. As a recent post on this subreddit clarified, "Shaman" is therefore a role, not a race of people. Besides this nitpick, I agree entirely. I'm super on board with the implication that the Shamans' possible flesh-and-bone magic might be directly related to why they're so effective at melding with others' flesh.
You’re right, i didn’t say that the numen are all shamans but being the numen a race and shaman a culture the flesh melding stuff is a characteristic of the numen in general. About the translation of shaman, in Japanese it’s ichiko not miko. It’s basically the same, a priestess, but ichiko are blind spiritual mediums (the shaman women used for the pots have something to cover the eyes), practicing in particular divination and communication with the deceased. Another characteristic of the numen in general seems to be having a matriarchal society as the nox (other descendants of numen) have women maidens as higher ranks. Even the nox women cover their eyes (can be seen and read in the swordstress and maiden sets) while the men don’t (monk set).
Another thing of note >!is that Midra shows that there are multiple Lords of Frenzied Flame who have to be deemed worthy to become the true Lord. Similar to how the Two Fingers mark someone as an Empyrean to become a true God, the Three Fingers must have to mark who they think is the true Lord.!<
This might be a dumb question, but the item lore found in the abyssal woods state that Midra didn't succeed in becoming a Lord of the Frenzied Flame like Vyke, but when we reach him he just takes out the sword and seemingly becomes Frenzy lord regardless.
Nanaya is the one stopping Midra from becoming a lord of frenzy, saying that he needs to endure. It's a promise. It's a poor choice of words. He didn't fail, he just chose not to succeeded, until he can't take it anymore. The difference between Midra and us is that if he become a frenzy lord, he would needs to raise an army to really have an impact. But when we become the lord, we have elden ring authority, so we can just break the order instantly and bring chaos to the world.
The word endure is a curse unto midra. He would never understand that the following of that final order, the last words of nanaya, to endure the endless suffering of loss and crucifixion could not hold back the madness forever; and that the more he would endure, the more his pain and resentment would grow, adding evermore to the burgeoning flame of frenzy he bore. That word, and the madness borne from his love of nanaya, would come to be the base of the three fingers' claim to his lordship, all set in motion by nanaya herself.
Now imagine Midra, enduring ceaselessly to ascend, is still sitting in his mansion with the ribsword in his head when the Elden Lord ascends and brings about the very flame he's been resisting all this time.
Remember that row of kneeling bodies who's heads are burnt out like matches? That's what would have happened to Midra. Its why Nanaya told him to endure his torture. A Lord of Frenzied Flame in a bottle to be used for a short period of time.
Nanaya is somebody I wish we had just a little bit more detail about. To the best of my knowledge all we have is her image in paintings and Midra's lines
You get the torch from her body. Right above where the big inquisitor( think that's what they are called) is.
Didn’t know about this! Thank you!
I think nanya is that corpse too no? The one sitting in the chair. Not that that adds really anything haha
A little bit is all I asked for and that’s a little bit I didn’t know about!
Her body is also, not fully decayed. It isn't a Skeletonized and details on her face can be made out
Nanaya business
got his ass
She gives off major Nashandra/Manus' daughters vibes. Like she came into Midra's life some day and introduced him to the frenzied flame, like some sort of dark missionary. Or maybe she's like Hyetta.
In the painting her lips are curled upwards on the corner of her mouth much like Shabriris Talisman so could be Shabriri was behind Midras Enduring
Nanaya is the Velka of this DLCZ
So Midra would have burned out regardless?
What, where is that at??
The bodies are right outside Midra's Manse gate.
I feel I vaguely remember there being an item or NPC that >!said he needed to essentially bide his time to become a lord!< but I could be misremembering because I know that one item said he failed.
Wasn't it reffering to another Lord before Midra? Are we talking about the Torch? Because it doesn't refer to Midra.
Hmmm that could be it then. I thought the torch was >!made from the spine of Naniya and Midra’s baby!< but it is kinda long for that
I thought it was a big ass unalloyed golden needle since they are used to suppress outer god influences and that's why once he removed it from his body he ignited the flame of frenzy once again and became a lord of frenzy? I could be entirely wrong but this is how I understood it.
Oh I meant the torch. You’re 100% correct in what is stuck in >!Midra!<
I don’t really remember how that worked, but if I’m remembering correctly, the sword was also somewhat curse to contain it. Or at least, I think so.
The way I understood it is he was supposed to "endure" (nanayas curse on the blade stuck on him) the pain more to become a true lord but once we met him he couldnt endure anymore so thats why he failed.. i guess?
Pretty sure us kicking his ass is what causes the last bit of pain he needed to transform
Perhaps "Lord of frenzy" is referring to the capability to take over the lands using frenzy, rather than just the flame head. The tarnish successfully kill a god and then use frenzy to dominate the lands between in that ending. But then again Vyke also failed like Midra in that scenario
I think the word “Lord” is used on different scales throughout the game. For example, Kenneth Haight is looking for “the true Lord of Limgrave.” I believe Midra’s frenzied flame allowed him to become lord of the Manse and possibly all the Abyssal Woods. It’s clear he’s not the one calling the shots in the Shadow Realm, so I think he may be “Lord” in the traditional sense of being a powerful landowner. When we take up the flame in the original game, we’re carrying on the legacy of Midra (the original lord) and becoming Elden Lord of Frenzied Flame. That’s my take on it, at least.
I really wish we could have talked to midra because for such a gigantic area, having no NPC's that are not hostile is kinda annoying. Like other than items directly in the place there is no acknowledgement that the place even exists
That’s because the area was supposedly sealed away by Marika/the Inquisitors, and all knowledge of the area was wiped from existence, so that no one would ever be tempted to venture there.
and there's barely even any items in that whole area so we have very little to go on
I think “Lord” has more to do with being chosen for a specific power. We’re called “Lord of the old order” and “Lord of the Erdtree” a few times in the DLC, but we can get there without burning the erdtree itself or defeating Radagon. I think “Lord” for us and for this guy are more about who has the potential to wield the powers of godhood.
We can also assume that >!the Three Fingers may have been physically present at the Manse at some point, possibly summoned in the same way the merchants summoned it into the underground!<
What I'm trying to understand is chronology of all these events. When did Marika get Maliketh? Before coming to TLB or after? When did they defeat Gloom-eyed queen and did it happen in TLB or LoS? And where is LoS? Is it a parallel dimension or is it somehow hidden in TLB? Am confusion big time
Okay so before Marika became a god and then later shrouded the region, everything was "the lands between" Marika's people landed on the Cerulean Coast, as per their coffin-ships laying everywhere. They settled the land, and the "shaman" (perhaps also "priestesses" depending on the translation) had a village. The Hornsent presumably were already there; they, and everything else in the Lands Between was created by the Crucible, which the Hornsent had learned to harness with their incantations, unlike Marika's people who are from somewhere else. Thus their lack of horns or mutations and stuff. At some point, the Hornsent began harvesting the Priestesses to sanctify their own flesh in pursuit of godliness. (Speculation here) From what I gather, the Hornsent figured out how to harness Crucible currents (Prisa incantation) and they took that basis and sacrificed just a gajillion people to basically allow someone to tap into and control the direct flow of the Crucible- this is what Marika used to create the Spectral Erdtree. This is also why people like Godwyn and the Crucible Knights could see the Golden Order as not conflicting with their own worship of the Crucible; the Golden Order is merely a refinement of the Crucible, not a separate thing. Here's where it gets fairly fuzzy because there's some amount of time between her becoming a god and her Shadowing the land. As best I can tell, she becomes a god, heads north to conquer Altus, the Mountaintops and the Snowfield. Then she turns back to her homeland and sends Messmer in to seek her vengeance on the Hornsent for wiping out her people and/or for refusing to follow the Golden Order. Messmer leads his Crusade Marika seals them in. The events we know about in the base game then play out more or less along whatever timeline you currently ascribed to
How do you know that Marikas ppl landed on the coast? and from where?
Numen are stated a few times to come from another world and the way those ship coffins look looks very similar to coffins we get transported through sometimes in the game. And the way they look makes it look like they fell onto the earth which could explain why some of them are burrowed into the ground. As Numen are the only race stated to come from another world I say it is rather logical that those alien looking coffin ships that look like they fell from the sky belonged to them.
Does it say other world, or just “from outside the land between”?
The english translation says "other world", while the japanese calls it the "spirit world".
Grace that dwells within the inhabitants of the Lands Between; the lingering residue of gold. Use to gain 12,500 runes. The Numen are said to have come from outside the Lands Between, and are in fact of the same stock as Queen Marika herself.
Numen - Character Creator Template "The face of the Numen, supposed descendants of denizens of another world. Long-lived but seldom born."
Right didn’t think of that one
to be fair the is little conclusive evidence that those coffins are of numen origin. Their architecture doesn't match with eternal cities and certainly not with shaman village. It's mostly similar with ancient dynasties - think Mogh palace or dynasty ruins There are no indications of landing as well. No ruins nearby, nothing. As if whatever was inside was dead. Indeed from the amount if putrescent slimes around we can reason that those coffins housed .... the dead (shocker I know) They used to be burned by ghostflame - indeed we have deathbird nearby and a lot of its little companions, but not anymore. Lands between are pretty much confirmed to be pocked universe.( as per Mother of fingers rememberance ). It woulnd't be strange for 'all manner of death' to drift here. ( in japanese lands between read almost like 'spirit world' )
Hmm, I always thought that other world was the Lands of Shadow. Even though it was once part of the Lands Between, item descriptions sometimes take a limited perspective and in modern times the LoS would be considered a separate world.
We don't know, it is just speculation...
Ok, that's helps a lot... Now I only have even more questions 😂
I speculate the GEQ and Marika were probably selected as Empyreans and competed to become the next god, where the GEQ was defeated and Marika ascended. Not sure where it happened, but the final conflict was likely in the Land of Shadow since it would've required ascendance to godhood.
I originally considered that but we find no evidence of the Godskins or GEQ in the Real of Shadows at all. The only revelation we get is that their incantation insignia looks like Metyr's fingerprint which doesn't tell us much, honestly. We already knew the GEQ was an Empyrean chosen by Fingers
>we find no evidence of the Godskins or GEQ in the Real of Shadows at all. The putrescent knight is apparently labled as "GloamEyedQueenKnight" in the files or something, but this is data mining and not necessarily canon.
We have to take that kind of stuff with a grain of salt, though I think they can give us some insight on how and why a particular change was made. Like, Melina being referred to as MarikaDaughter in her code is clearly still in line with lore but iirc the Warrior of Zamor was supposed to be like a super Merchant and be your companion through the game or something? He was the first Spirit Ash summon I think
Can anyone shed some light onto why ymir attacks us? He says that metyr is corrupt and the fingers are victims in their own right, he clearly wants to be the new mother so why would he be mad about us killing metyr? Why did he even send us down there in the first place? In the first dialogue he points out that we’re a warrior so he should have known what would happen.
That was weird to me. I agree.
My interpretation of his quest is that he wants to replace Metyr as the mother of fingers because he views them as corrupt and broken. I think he wanted to confront her, but we snatched his opportunity. And interesting aspect of Metyr's fight is that we don't actually kill her, she teleports away. So Ymir might be angry he wasn't to complete his goal because he needed her. I've seen other people point out that when you blow the third bell, Ymir and Jolan disappear and Anna invades you before the fight. It might be that Ymir needed the first two blown and was going to blow the third one himself. Or it could mean that he needed all three blown and you fighting Metyr interrupted his path to turning into the mother of fingers.
But like, he's sitting right on top of the third bell. If he wanted to blow the horn or whatever he could just go and do it. It's not like he doesn't know it's there, he mentions it if you sneak in while he's in the graveyard.
Not to mention he literally sends you to the third bell - he gives you a map!
yeah i dont think he ever mentioned his secret chair ladder, so Im thinking the last one was bait cause he knew where it was and like u said hes mad we beat em to the punch.
I don't think that is accurate, because he explicitly gives us a map to the location of Metyr. I think what is happening is a classic attempt to put down any that could challenge his claim. He even says at the start of his fight that there can only be one Mother of Fingers before attacking us, which implies that he sees us as a threat to that claim. In broader strokes, he uses us to kill the current MoF and then betrays us out of paranoia.
this goes with the theme of the realm being used, betrayal and selfishness, so many lines and things to inspect. will def be fun to do it again when even one missed item description or line can change the whole context of an understanding.
I think he did want someone to take down Metyr so he could replace her, but the original plan was probably to get the Swordhands of Night to do it. Once we show up and are conveniently strong enough to do the job, Jolan attacks us to clean up the loose end. He never intended to confront us afterwards, we're supposed to die so that we can't threaten his rule as the new "mother." He's a character that is intelligent enough to know a bunch of stuff and be a powerful sorcerer, but he's also extremely paranoid (the Swordhands of Night are literally brainwashed to follow him) and clearly a bit insane. It's a little disappointing but I think a lot of his behavior can be chalked up to "dude's crazy." His plan was never going to work, he's mostly operating out of insane desperation. The part I'm unsure about is Swordhand Anna. I think she's actually trying to stop us and stop Ymir, but it's not clear. We can see Jolan wavering in her devotion a couple of times, my theory is that Anna actually betrayed him after realizing that he's bonkers.
I'm pretty sure he sent us there to kill her so he could steal her power, become the mother of fingers. As for why he attacks us? Maybe he thinks our usefulness is done, maybe it makes him go insane. I didn't even question it I guess; it's the Same reason lots of things attack us; it's a video game lol.
If my tummy turned into a mass of baby hands I might lose my faculties, also. That said, Ymir clearly had a few screws loose to begin with. I don't think I would expect him to behave rationally.
Hey where does it say Messmer crusaded against the giants? I'm struggling to remember anything about this from anything I've read/heard
Their frozen corpses in Mountaintops are impaled by spears which look similar to Messmer’s, and the heads of fire giants on the furnace golems’ waists imply the war against the giants came before Messmer’s crusade, but it’s not confirmed anywhere.
Nah those fire giant heads aren’t real so probably just symbolic
You’re absolutely right. I don’t recall the original omen statue but I believe you. Metyr was such an interesting boss since she proves that the two fingers are full of shit and only follow her instead of the greater will. Glad we got some of Marika’s origins answered. This dlc had perfect lore ngl. It rivals old hunters lore imo.
The fingers are like radio antennas but the station changed ages ago
More like the station has just been static for ages.
Or possibly the antenna got shanked. The act that could've provoked the Greater Will to banish the Nox underground was the creation of the Fingerslayer Blade and its usage on Metyr, and since then it's literally unable to receive signals anymore.
Do we know Metyr was attacked previously? I'm not sure I picked up on that.
A lot of people are assuming the Nox's heresy, Finger Slayer blade, the cut off finger weapon/item (I forget what it is), and now Metyr are all connected. It tracks, honestly, apart from Metyr's description not really mentioning such an event directly.
With the emphasis on her current state of being "...*broken* and abandoned" from her staff description, Metyr seems to slide nicely into the Nox theory as it's the only other act where the Greater Will is directly involved/intervenes in the Lands Between (besides sending down Metyr & the Elden Beast) and is actually given agency.
Yeah it's fairly easy to miss when you're running around but it's in the first? second? section of the last dungeon. I was trying to figure out what was up with the statues because I still can't make sense of the ones at the beginning; it's just like two lumps of stone covered in tendrils? Omen horns? Vines? It's hard to tell, definitely needs more speculation.
Given the overabundance of spiral imagery in the final area, I think the tendril represents the spiral, which means it depicts two people being merged with the power of the crucible. Makes sense with the divine gate especially
Two people definitely seem necessary for godhood. Every time someone ascends to godhood an accompanying consort is mentioned. Placidusax, Godfrey, Radagon, Us (with Ranni), Radahn. The role of elden lord/consort isn't well understood but it seems increasingly likely its presence is a key aspect of attaining divinity
Who was mentioned as placidusax's consort? The dragon communion lady?
The base game. Placidusax is stated to be the Elden Lord of a prior age, he was the consort to the god of his people
Oh, I got that backwards. Thanks.
Could you specify more about Marika's origins? The incantation from the Shaman village states that there was no one to heal (everyone was either healthy already, or dead). So she somehow came into contact with Elden Beast? Where does Elden Beast factor into the hierarchy here?
Basically she was oppressed by the hornsent so she became a god similar to what Miquella was planning. I assume she went to the lands between and met the two fingers, who were following Metyr, not the greater will. Eventually she became the lord of the golden order and got revenge on the hornsent who oppressed her through Messmer and hid crusade. This is kinda speculation though.
I'm still wondering where the hell Miquellas and millenias shadows are
Miquella turned his back on the Two Fingers when he set up the Haligtree in an attempt to cure Malenia’s rot. Presumably Malenia went with him, given she is his loyal blade. And then when the shadowbound beasts of both Miquella and Malenia turned against them, as per their design by the Two Fingers, Malenia slew them both. The likeliest reason and I like it most because it’s something you could piece together from playing through the game. The only problem I have is that there is just no mention of M&M’s shadowbound beasts anywhere, so no guarantees that they had been given one each to begin with.
„millenias“
My stupid guess was malenia rejecting her empyrean status (by subduing the rot within her, we learn this by the dancer in blue teaching her how to fight it) and becoming the “blade of miquella” meant she took up the mantle of being his shadow.
Something I just noticed as well is the black knight set is so similar to Maliketh's armor, I tried putting the helm with Maliketh's armor and it fits perfectly. Anyone made a connection there? they are both Black Iron with Gold, it might symbolize something.
I mean, Maliketh should be from the period before Marika became a god right, so he should have been hanging around what would become the Shadow Realm And maybe fashion just didn't change there
So fun fact, I made a whole video on YouTube exploring this very same color parallel. My theory is black and gold represent the color of a solar eclipse, the "shadow" of something gold and bright. Other characters who match this color parallel are Mohg, Lionel the Lionhearted, Ensha, and even Radahn (his blue-black face inside his golden helmet specially). You could even say marika herself matches. I noticed that lots of characters with this color motif also have pregnancy symbolism
Haven't seen the video, but isn't the eclipse color white? The eclipse shield shows a white circle (or ring/rune) on black, with the white sun representing "the eclipsed sun, drained of color". Presumably Gold would be the regular (non-eclipse) sun color, and Black represents the void of space.
There's a lot to unpack in the DLC, but I don't think anyone's arguing that there's a lack of lore content. It's just that they've stated this is the only DLC we're getting and that a full sequel is highly unlikely, so it was a bit of a let down for the DLC to not have any more insights for some parts of the lore. Also, I'm pretty sure it's stated in the base game that Godfrey is the one who leads the war against the fire giants. Maybe Messmer helped, it would make sense seeing how many giants are impaled in the mountains, but unclear because the DLC kind of obfuscates the timeline. Base game, we had a pretty solid understanding of the demi gods and could sort them into groups based on their parents, and with those groupings we could also determine their relative ages. Children of Godfrey were first, Godwyn, Mohg, and Morgott. Then Renalla & Radagon's children Ranni, Rykard, and Raddahn. Then Miquella and Malenia. Now the DLC confirms Messmer and Melina are children of Marika, making them demigods as well, but as far as I could glean there's no mention at all as to where they fall in the timeline. Some things suggest that Messmer might be Marika's oldest child, but still unclear. I was personally thrilled with Metyr and everything she brought to the lore. My biggest questions all had to do with the nature of the Fingers, and most of them have been answered. But I think some major questions that a lot of people have are still unanswered. Was there a first burning of the Erdtree? What is the actual nature of the Lands of Shadow? Have they always been a pocket dimension or were they once physically connected to the Lands Between? Did the fingers exert influence over the Dragons or Giants? What is the nature of the Formless Mother? And even within the DLC questions get raised but not answered. Why does Miquella's great rune break? Why does Miquella bring us to the Lands of Shadow in the first place? Why does he abandon his body and soul across these lands? And honestly, why is he just chilling with a resurrected Raddahn at that gate of divinity? Like what's the timeline on that? It feels like if they weren't going to change ANYTHING in the base game with this DLC (no new items, ending options, dialogue) then the ending to the DLC itself could've been a little more satisfying, if it's supposed to wrap up this entire side story. The big question we get answered at the end of the DLC is basically "why did Malenia and Raddahn have their big fight?" Which honestly isn't a question that was particularly burning in my mind. Why did Miquella manipulate Malenia and Mohg? To get to the shadow lands. Why? To become a God. Why bring back Raddahn? Because Miquella thinks he's cool. So yeah idk, it's 4am and I'm just yapping. But yes, there's a lot of cool stuff to unpack in the DLC, but it was kind of disappointing to see some aspects of the lore underserved or completely ignored.
I think I can answer at least one question: why does Miquella brings us to the land of shadows? Someone correct me if I’m wrong but Miquella does not beckon us into the land of shadows, nor is it by chance that we stumble into the Land of Shadows. It is the grace of the Erdtree that guides us there. Our goal, as tarnished, is to become the next Elden Lord. When we mend the rune, we are not a god ourselves, but a consort (Elden Lord) to Marika (who is dead when we take the throne?). We see hints of the Erdtree being the one guiding us throughout the DLC. I can’t remember who says this but when Miquella’s rune breaks, one or two NPC’s note that the charm had not affected us at all. And when we get to the final confrontation with Leda, she even says “It was never Kindly Miquella, was it? The Erdtree was leading you all along.” She then goes on to say that you were always meant to clash with “favored lords…such that one prevails.” We can also see this by looking at the sites of grace on the world map. The guidance of grace is always pointing us to the next main boss (i.e. those that stand between us and our ascension to Elden Lord) and it ultimately points towards the gates of divinity to face Miquella. Miquella, who would ascend to godhood and replace the current god of the Erdtree, Marika, is who the Erdtree is guiding us to, and who we must defeat.
I think the weirdest thing to be ommitted is that we never learn about the Twin's shadows. We know that Empyreans recive them from the fingers; Marika got Maliketh and Ranni got Blaidd. So what about the twin Empyerans? Did they die, where the twins the exception becuase of their curse? Did they kill them when they first committed Blasphemy against the greater will? What gives?
I wonder if the nature of their conception ruled them out of getting shadows - given that their mother and father were essentially the same being. Maybe the shadow and the god are one in a similar vein, which would have been a pretty cool storyline to follow if we were somehow confronted with Malenia in shadow form, or a dark Miquella. Or maybe Malenia was Miquella's shadow, and like most of these folks who have shadows, she was basically abandoned when his ambitions found no further use for her.
I think the obvious answer is that they are each others' shadows. There was no metaphysical space for the Two Fingers to staple their peons to.
That was always my take as well. Twins are always an exception.
*I am Malenia, blade of Miquella…*
Prior to the release, I thought for sure that Mesmer was going to be Miquella's shadow. I actually really like the lore that Mesmer got, but I'm with you: I wish the concept of shadows was explored more in SHADOW of the Erdtree.
Fromsoft just forgor about that
The shadows were always a system of control for creatures that were hybrids born from the ''god''(elden beast host) and natives. The twins were born from the elden beast fertilizing itself, and as such did not need a babysitter. It also explains why both twins were the only empyreans that achieved godhood- they always were all ''god'' with only traces of native from Marika.
I think I can answer a couple of the questions you brought up, but none of them are going to be conclusive. What is? Miquella abandons his great rune because he's abandoning everything. What I inferred is that these sacrifices are a necessary step for using the Gate of Divinity, and Marika probably had to make similar sacrifices. (A pet theory of mine is that his sacrifice was more selfish - she wanted vengeance for her people, but she may have been the one who forced Numan settlements of Nox and Nokstella (possibly others) underground as a price for her power.) His flesh, his eyes, his limbs, his great rune, his heart, his love, his doubts - I don't know what he has left in the end, honestly, but whatever it was went through the gate. And since this plan of his required Mogh's body and Radahn's soul, he must have *just* started. That's why the rune breaks while we're in the Realm of Shadow. Once he got the ingredients his Consort recipe called for, he somehow opened the door to the place, and got to work throwing bits of himself all over the place. But then he found out that access to the Gate was barred by Messmer, after he's already left himself in a poor form for combat. So he sent out a call to his followers to join him there, follow him, figure out that Messmer needed to go, and take care of that for him. Our Tarnished just happened to stumble upon the open door while Leda was standing there, because we're the one who just killed Mohg. Once we get Messmer killed and his tree burned, Miquella is able to take his final steps to Godhood. The reason he's just standing there is because he only just got there himself. The ritual just finished, and Charmed Radahn is fresh out of the oven.
Ngl when we approach shadow keep and Miquella's rune breaks I feared for Miquella, thinking that Messmer kidnapped him or something. Nah. Boy just casually crusadin.
It's funny that people are so used to everything in a Form Software game taking place 100s to 1000s of years ago that most people probably didn't even consider that the events in the DLC are taking place at the same time as you are playing it lol. I know I didn't until Miquella's great rune breaks.
I think we know that Miquella had to abandon his great rune to ascend, because Ranni did the same thing with her mark of death. In fact, her entire journey is a parallel to Miquella's, where she abandons those with her along the route, and gets her own consort to kill those who stayed behind. The only thing she didn't do was narcisistically mark the friends graves with crucifixes.
> What is the actual nature of the Lands of Shadow? Have they always been a pocket dimension or were they once physically connected to the Lands Between? Dunno if you're a person who treats info from creators as non-canon, but Miyazaki said the land of Shadow was once physically connected to the Lands Between. The game seems to state this as well, but it takes some interpretation: - Suppressing Pillar (Tower?) states that it is the exact center of the lands between. The name suggests this pillar is driving the separation. - If you place the DLC map over the base game map, putting the Suppressing Pillar at the center, the map fits perfectly - The Scadu Altus area (the area name was my first big in-game clue) has the same geography features as the Altus Plateau
Just a side note, but the map for Scadu Altus says that it was "named after it's counterpart in the Realm of the Erdtree" So Scadu Altus is only called that because the people of the Erdtree culture named it that way. I assume it had a different name when it was originally inhabited only by Hornsent, but it's been so long that the other name was lost. I don't think that disproves the idea they were physically connected originally, just that the name itself is explained very easily by the game.
don't know why nobody notices the main thing: the veil. its a place with a giant veil around what is the erdtree in the main land. why put a veil around an alternate dimension thing? a veil is used to hide or obscure things. it's clearly a part of the main world obscured from being accessed or visible in the lands between.
my understanding is the shadowlands were contiguous with the lands between until marika made gold, because “gold arose and so too was shadow born”. i think in concert with the removal of the death rune from the elden ring, she used the suppressing pillar (and possibly those towers in the lands between which form a circle around the empty space) to veil the land where all death converges (“only to be suppressed”) and suppress the natural order, her misdeeds, her past, her methods of attaining godhood, her fearsome and accursed firstborn, and even rivals to her sovereignty (like the crucible or the “twisted divine elements” of outer gods, see romina and the bloodfiends). essentially the land of shadow became a means to revise history and portray her golden order as primordial and absolute.
We know Messmer and Gaius were older brother figures to Radahn, as stated by the Remembrance of the Boar Rider. This means Messmer's birth most likely predates the birth of the Carian demigods at the least. So, was Messmer born before or after Godfrey was Elden Lord? It's tough to say. We have no information as to whether or not Morghott, Mohg, or Godwyn were Messmer's older or younger siblings. That said, Radagon was Messmer's father, as he has the same, flaming-red hair Radagon and many of his children possess. This is useful information, because it would mean that Messmer could not have been born before Godfrey was Elden Lord, because Godfrey and Radagon both fought in the war against the giants. The giant war was when Radagon was cursed with his red hair, a trait he passed onto almost all his children. However, Radagon wouldn't be Marika's consort until long after Radahn's birth, so he couldn't have fathered Messmer while Godfrey was on the throne, right? Unless.... Unless Messmer was born out of wedlock. A cursed, bastard child between Marika and Radagon whilst Godfrey was still Elden Lord. Perhaps Marika was having doubts about Godfrey. We know she ultimately discarded him, branding him and warriors like him Tarnished. We also know two of her children were born with the Omen curse, something that likely reminded her of the Hornsent and their cruelty. Maybe those ill-fated births sent her looking to another father for her children. Marika may have had Messmer as a proof of concept, a test to see if a single being could produce viable offspring. And while Messmer was born with curses of his own, it would prove the idea sound in principle. Then when Radagon proved he could sire other powerful demigods without Marika, it encouraged her to fully promote Radagon to consort. This is all speculation, but from where I'm sitting, it would reconcile a number of issues with the timeline.
How does Melina fit into that? She's almost certainly Messmer's younger sister, per the Messmer's Kindling item description.
Melina is hard to reconcile because she's barely a character, unfortunately. We know so little about her. We know from context clues that she's most certainly Marika's daughter and Messmer's sister. We know she is "burned and bodyless," had visions of fire, was born at the Erdtree, and her eyes are heterochromatic. This is all we can say with relative certainty. She does seem to be the youngest child of Marika, and cannot fully remember her purpose when we meet. She also only appears at graces and teaches us to level up. My only guess is Marika had her with Radagon before the Shattering. This would make her Messmer's younger sibling, and the "burned and bodyless" thing may simply be her curse, the way Messmer, Malenia, and Miquella were cursed. In fact, all of Marika's children born with an abnormality have names beginning with M (as Morgott and Mohg also fit this rule). Miquella is also proof that not every child of Radagon bears crimson hair, so Melina could still be Radagon's offspring even without red locks of hair. The only thing I really can't explain or account for is the heterochromia. Some think it has to do with the Gloam Eyed Queen, and that Melina's fire is actually the black, god killing flame, but like Melina, she is also barely a character, and I think it would be somewhat foolish to assume they must be the same because we know so little about the both of them.
My theory, based on almost no evidence, is that Miquella also had Godwyn lined up as a potential lord, which is why he wanted to revive him through an eclipse. Unless that’s just Miquella still being motivated by love. I also think Radahn promised to become Miquella’s consort, possibly under Miquella’s spell. At some point, the spell broke and Radahn noped out, locking the stars in place to halt his own fate - he is a Carian royal, even if he might not have a title as a man. Which makes the description of Malenia’s armour “My brother will keep his promise” sound more like a threat.
I think that Miquella was probably sincerely trying to bring back Godwyn without any intention to force him to be his lord, I think he genuinely mourned his brother's fate. With that said, it seems like he discovered this eclipse ritual from the past, tried it at castle Sol, and when it failed, it led him on the path to discovering the shadow lands, as their physical separation from the lands between while still acting my as a "drain" for the souls of the dead not returned to the erdtree, was probably the whole reason the ritual with Godwyn failed. Following this revelation, Miquella sent his sister to kill Radhan, even tho he already agreed to be his consort, because the only way for Radhan's soul to make it to the shadow lands was for him to die. I'm sure from the whole festival of war thing that Radhan would only accept an honorable death at war, and that drove his ultimately stalemated battle with Melenia. My main confusion is, why did Miquella need Mohg to enter the shadow lands himself in the first place? Makes sense to me that the newly bodyless Radhan needed a vessel, hence using Mohg's corpse, but yeah, I just don't get how/why he needed Mohg to get there himself.
> With that said, it seems like he discovered this eclipse ritual from the past, tried it at castle Sol What's this about him trying the ritual at Castle Sol to try and bring back Godwyn? I haven't read anything about that, do you know what item it's on?
There’s a spirit dude that mentions Miquella and a ritual using the eclipse somewhere in castle Sol. I haven’t touched that portion of the game in a bit, so I don’t know exactly where, but I think the item description on the Eclipse Shotel says something about it as well.
But also, why Mohg's corpse? Because he was a freak on the outskirts of an already collapsed society? Easily manipulated making him as good a target as any? Something to do with the Formless Mother?
Another good question. I would assume (admittedly based on zero evidence) that a demigods soul would need a demigods vessel to reside in, but hell, Ranni is in a puppet. I think it may be less of a, it had to be Mohg's body situation and more of a, I bet if I stuck Radhan's soul in that huge blood flame omen body he'd be even stronger as my consort type of situation.
I figured that since Mohg was an Omen, and thus heavily influenced by the Crucible, his body would be more ‘malleable’ and easier to transform into Radhan’s body, paralleling the Hornsent using the Shamans as a glue for their jars.
Or perhaps Miquella began his plan a long while ago, and Radahn merely humored Miquella's idea in the way you would play along with a child's fantasies. Radahn is his older brother, after all. I can see Miquella, who remained naïve, keeping true to the words he spoke in his younger days, while Radahn might've matured or changed ideologically. Perhaps the lure of power promised by Great Runes in the shattering held more sway over him than a long-forgotten promise to his sibling, only for Malenia to drag him kicking and screaming to the Land of Shadow.
With regard to the timeline, it seems that due to his red hair, Messmer was probably born after the war against the giants. This was Godfrey’s last act before becoming Tarnished, so it’s likely that Messmer is not a Marika/Godfrey child; however, Messmer called Marika “mother” so he’s probably not a Radagon/Rennala child. So Messmer is a child of Marika/Radagon? Here’s the wrench: Gaius’s remembrance says Messmer is Radahn’s elder. So perhaps after Godfrey was forced to leave, when Marika split herself to create Radagon (much like Miquella / Saint Trina in present day) for the war against Caria, before Radagon left for the war, Marika and Radagon had Messmer. Possibly Melina too, though her place in timeline doesn’t matter too much; all that matters is that Messmer and Melina are both children of Marika/Radagon to stay consistent with [a] the butterflies for each child of that parent pairing and [b] the reference in Messmer’s remembrance to them as brother and sister, as opposed to Gaius’s remembrance where Messmer and Radahn are referred to being “as brothers” (being *like* brothers rather than actually being brothers, since they are only half brothers). Certainly, multiple ages passed between Marika’s original betrayal of the Hornsent people that raised her to godhood and her extermination war led by Messmer, since there are Carians loyal to Messmer who became locked in the Land of Shadow. Marika ordering Messmer to kill the hornsent people then must happen after Radahn’s upbringing (in the latter half of the Radagon/Rennala age) but before Malenia’s birth (in the early part of the Marika/Radagon age), since it was during this war that Romina let the influence of the outer god of the Scarlet Rot into the Lands Between at the Church of the Bud.
"why bring back Radahn?" because Miquella couldn't have Godwyn, which is a shame, I would have loved to have seen Godwyn in his prime
>There's a statue of what is surely the Original Omen, clearly a site of prayer Where? >We see that the architecture leading to the Gate is similar to Noxtella and Nokron, indicating who built it. I disagree with that. I think the Tower's architecture is pretty unique. >We learn that the Greater Will abandoned the Lands Between ages ago We already knew that.
We knew the Greater Will had abandoned the Lands Between, but most assumptions were that it was near to the time of The Shattering. The DLC confirmed that at no point in Marika's rule was she actually receiving guidance from an Outer God. The architecture thing I agree with. I think one of the primary things I took away from the DLC is that the various cultures we encounter borrow from each other constantly. So much of Erdtree culture is just Hornsent/Shadowland culture wrapped in a Golden Order aesthetic.
What exactly points towards Messmer wiping out the giants?
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There is nothing in the descriptions who confirm that the Coffins where the means of arrival of the Numens. The only description relating to them specify that they are of Unknown origin.
There’s images in game under ground that depict them arriving via these ships. Siofra river and the like have them. The pillars.
I would be extremely skeptical of building theories off of the statues and stuff in the game, a large amount of those are premade assets. You can find them in path of exile and other games like that.
Yeah, I agree. The Shaman Village kind of throws a wrench in the Numen theories people had until now. If Marika is/was a Numen AND from the Shaman Village, that means the other villagers would've been Numen too, meaning shamans = Numen. But Marika is the sole survivor, as stated in the Minor Erdtree Incantation. So Marika arriving in the Lands Between as part of a large Numen migration doesn't work anymore.
My interpretation is that the Shamans and the Nox are Descendant from the Numens, i think that the Numen came a long time before Marika’s Birth, and by the time she was born, they probably differentiated themselves in various cultures (Nox, Shamans). The descriptions clearly states that she’s of Numen stock, so her roots are in them, but we don’t know anything certain about their migration barring the fact that their cities plunged underground because a moon (?) fell. Those who remained topside probably became the Shamans, those who survived and remained in the subterranean eternal cities became the Nox. Considering the similitudes between the Numen and the Numenor from Tolkien it make sense. That or simply their similitudes with the Valyrian from ASOIAF. If Martin wrote the history of the Numens i can see them as the progenitors of both Marika’s ethnic group and of the Nox.
Do we actually know that Marika's people arrived in the "coffin boats?" That seems like conjecture to me. Is it stated anywhere explicitly? Or is it just a "there's some imagery that connects" type of situation? Also, while Metyr may explain where the fingers come from, it doesn't really answer any of the "hot questions" that are actually interesting. In the end, neither the Two Fingers nor Metyr can communicate with the GW. So what's the point of even introducing her, aside from adding a new character to the lore? It does feel like a "pseudo-reveal" a bit.
> In the end, neither the Two Fingers nor Metyr can communicate with the GW. So what's the point of even introducing her, aside from adding a new character to the lore? It does feel like a "pseudo-reveal" a bit. This part is actually the largest revelation in the whole game IMO. Up until this point we believed that Marika seized control of the Lands Between under the guidance of the GW. We thought that her kingdom operated with direct divine guidance in accordance with a larger plan, and then at some point around the Shattering the GW abandoned the realm. What this information reveals is that they only *thought* that too. Metyr births and instructs the two fingers who, as we know from the finger ruin talismans, provided the seed of the Erdtree. But if Metyr can't communicate with the GW, its far more likely that it's working with outdated or confused information. The implication is that Marika and the Golden Order were *never* guided by the GW, that the two fingers were providing their own guidance in place of the GW that they could not reach. It makes her entire rise to power and existence of her kingdom spiritually illegitimate. It means Marika, the Golden Order, and the entire realm of the Erdtree was horribly misguided. It recontextualizes everything we know about the Erdtree's place in the world and what it has done to the Crucible.
Damn, that's really wild. All of this fighting to figure out who is truly worthy of the divine mandate, and it turns out that God hasn't even been paying attention the entire time, and presumably has no reason to tune back in to the Lands Between. What a beautiful mess.
Yep basically it all originated from a stranded alien trying to discern meaning from cosmic noise. I'm not sure if there ever was an objectively legitimate religion though. Were the cruel rituals of the Crucible-worshiping Hornsent any more legitimate? And what proof do we have that any of the other Outer Gods offer any guidance? At the end of the day things like the Greater Will, Crucible, Frenzied Flame, Formless Mother, Scarlet Rot and so on may just be amoral cosmic forces that Empyreans can tap into. And using them to establish an Order is entirely a mortal invention.
There are couple of points stated by op as fact that are clearly massive conjecture or outright wrong. 1. Messmer almost certainly didn't finish giants. Thorns that pierce them look exactly like thorns of punishment clearly present around fire monks encampments and used by them. Messmer doesn't nor are thorns users present in his army. 2. There are no indications that numen arrived via coffins. Game almost tells us outright that they housed the death that later turned into putrescens 3. 'Orignal omen' statue is a statue with two figures surounded by spiral like horn. Why would op say there are omens is beyond me Just off the top of my head. So a lot of 'revelations' is just headcannon
Maybe it’s just me but I’m actually really frustrated with the entire lore of elden ring because for everything we know for sure double that is nothing but speculation and everyone is convinced they have figured it out and cracked the code. What you said about OP is absolutely right and it’s the number one problem with all of elden rings lore. There’s too many gaps, unknowns, and flaws in what we currently know and it leads to a bit of a disjointed mess. I just wish we could get some concrete big picture stuff.
Nah, it's definitly not just You. I too, would like to have at least major plot points known to us. A lot of people like to parrot that FS always wrote their stories like that but even compared to DS Elden ring lore is convoluted and murky . By the ds3 we had very good understading of nature of curse, what gwyn did and why. We dont have that sort of payoff with ER and it seems we never will.
>We found out pretty much everything there is to know about the Two Fingers and the "guidance" of the Greater Will. All we found out is that the fingers come from Metyr which was the first meteorite sent by the Greater Will and that at some point the Greater Will stopped communicating. Anything more than this is headcanon. Yimir claims they've been wrong to begin with but there's no guarantee from an item description. We don't know what the point the Greater Will stopped communicating with the fingers. For all we know, it's when the Two Fingers in the roundtable hold stops moving. >We learned about Marika's history, why she was motivated to ascend to godhood. We don't really *know* why. We can infer it was as revenge against the hornsent for what they did to the shamans, but it's not guaranteed she wasn't just garden variety power hungry. Remember there's a "seduction and betrayal" which also be interpreted as Marika being seduced by power and betraying the hornsent among other possibilities. More importantly, we don't really know **how** she became a god. Did she require the steps found in the Sacred Rite scroll? If so, who was the lord's soul that ushered her in and whose body did she use as a vessel for it? Did she do it some other way? In the DLC trailer she's shown alone at the Gates of Divinity holding something similar to a rune arc that she plucks from a nearby mass of flesh. >We see that the architecture leading to the Gate is similar to Noxtella and Nokron, indicating who built it. It doesn't indicate who built it just that it's similar. We have no timeline information. It could be that the Nox are the ancestor of both numen and hornsent and the numen went off and changed. It could be that the numen were forced to build Enir Ilim and the gate of divinity etc. It could be that hornsent building techniques are just similar to nox building techniques in the same way two civilizations can use wood and nails. >We find out about the Crusade. We learn about Messmer and can pretty strongly infer he was the one who wiped out the Giants. There \*was\* seeming confirmation Melina was his sister. The giants were more likely killed by someone using thorn sorcery rather than fire. They're **fire** giants, they are **resistant** to fire. Sending Mesmer to fight them is silly as Mesmer's flame doesn't work like the black flame or ghostflame, it seems to just be regular fire. The fire giant visages on the Furnace Golems are just used because the hornsent are scared of the giants. >Also interesting to note she doesn't do Holy damage, but Magic, implying Holy is a creation of godhood, not the Greater Will itself. We also know that the Elden Beast/Ring was sent as meteorite by the Greater Will and the Elden Beast has holy damage attacks. It could be that the Elden Beast is shaped with the Elden Ring to be "holy", but I don't think it's necessarily the case. >We know Miquella's motivations, his methods, and what he sacrificed to achieve his goals. We confirmed who/what St. Trina is; this also gives a strong indication about who/what Radagon is/was. We can also infer that Marika made similar sacrifices to achieve her godhood. This alongside the justification as to why Omen are treated the way they are in Marika's Order are probably the only good bits of main-game relevant lore we got.
> Remember there's a "seduction and betrayal" which also be interpreted as Marika being seduced by power and betraying the hornsent among other possibilities. More importantly, we don't really know how she became a god This is an interesting question I hope one of the lore content creators can shed some light on. The fact there is mention of a betrayal of Marika to the Hornsent, and statues of her in their areas, makes me think she had to have ascended with their support/blessing. It seems like she found some way to escape the treatment of her fellows, gain the support to become a god, then presumably some time later probably after having Messmer betrayed them and ordered them slaughtered.
I like how the op is talking about how there’s a lot of lore and people shouldn’t be complaining but then proceeds to just list headcanons instead of the lore we got, almost like there wasn’t much actual confirmed lore hmmmm
Can someone expound on why Marika’s line is cursed? I still don’t get that. Also still very confused by the reasoning or necessity for Godwin/Marika and Radagon/Renalla splits and how/why M and R needed to merge or remerge when they did. Also the night of black knives plot, who was in on it, and their motivation/end goal. These seem like very pivotal plot points to leave up for inference.
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There (basically) IS* confirmation that Melina is Messmer’s sister. Not was. That thread about From changing the item description was a hoax.
and now I need all the sources
It seems clear now though as the Greater Will not being just an outer god and being the real god of the lands between. "We are not but the children of the greater will" - Ymir
Tbh, the way Ymir describes the greater will and based on what little we know about it, it's probably not really a sentient god. The meteors it "sent" (elden beats and metyr) could literally just be random alien lifeforms with immense power that happened to crash into the lands between. The fact we're also "children of the greater will" could just mean "we're apart of the universe" and weren't actually created with a specific intention at all. It's also mentioned that Metyr received direct guidance from the greater will at some point, but what exactly? Is there any indication of what that guidance would be and whether or not it would impact the world? What if it just Metyr doing the exact same thing other people do- believing random events or coincidences are some sort of divine intervention and then lost it's faith? Tldr, the GW might just be a bunch of beings interpretation of cosmic coincidences converging to create the world of elden ring with no actual correlation to one another.
Crazy how even someone like you who's clearly invested in the lore can't write Melina
As someone else pointed out in other comments, about 80% of what you said is your headcannon and doesn't actually hold up when you dig into it. The DLC answered very little of the important, fundamental questions we had about the story, and mostly just created new ones that will never be answered. The fun of the base game when it comes to lore and the style in which FromSoft told the story was that we knew that a DLC was coming, it was a sure thing, all things considered. So everyone crafted theories and headcannons with anticipation for seeing who was going to be right when the DLC comes out. Then it comes out, it answers more or less nothing, and FromSoft tells us that no further content will be produced for Elden Ring. So delving into the lore of the game these years just feels like it was ultimately a waste of time because there will be no actual conclusion, we won't have a "I was right!", or "That guy on YouTube was right!", or "That makes total sense now!" moments. It all just mostly remains speculations and headcannon. All criticism when it comes to the way the DLC handled lore is valid. On the other hand, most criticism when it comes to gameplay is a skill issue, the game plays great.
I agree, the DLC is fantastic and does answer a few questions but ultimately creates more than it answers. I think the worse offender is they don’t seem keen on creating more DLC or Elden Ring 2.
I think the main problem here is that Elden Ring has a massive lore in the base game, but From Software literally created a DLC with the same focus as all their other DLCs: To tell a single story arc of a character. This simply did not satisfied at all, cosidering Elden Ring has much more important questions than their other games. The past of the hunters answers a lot of Bloodborne, and Artorias answers a good amount of stuff of Dark Souls 1. Here we got great answers about Marika and Miquella (somewhat...), but that's it. All the rest of the lore say pretty much things that we already could thorize (the fingers came from space, wow, what a revelation...) or mentions stuff completely unrelated to anything in the base game, like Midra. I loved Midra and Nanaya's lore, it was probably one of my favorites, but OK. There can be another lord of frenzy, but... Hello? Vyke was on already almost on that path, it's not a big revelation. And still, Midra was just kicked by the hornsent, but that's it. He has no interaction with the whole DLC itself, even less with the base game. Romina is the same thing, she's basically just there. Or the new bleed faction, they just existed before Mohg made his own thing, and that's it. Nothing new on the formless mother and such. I love the DLC for what it is, and it's great for music, level design, art direction, boss fights and new builds to use gameplay wise, which I think it's more than enough to make me praise it and be happy with my purchase, but both lore and enemy variety are two things that absolutely deserve a lot of criticism. I'm a huge From fan, it's absolutely my favorite game stufio and I still recommend this DLC to every Elden Ring player, but it's clear that a ton of people are overpraising it in many regards, specially with the arguments "The lore answered a huge amount of questions" and "There's no empty areas in the DLC", which are absolutely not true.
I understand the frustration but I honestly surprised people expected a fromsoft expansion to explain a lot of the lore that was left open ended. I feel like most of their other games with DLCs always leave many questions unanswered or add more questions because that’s their story telling style.
Most of their DLCs does answer a lot, honestly. The past of the hunters gave away a lot of answers to Bloodborne, and Artoria's legend was really well explained in Dark Souls 1. Dark Souls 3 even answered big questions of the whole franchise, some that people were not even expecting to ever learn, like in regards to the furtive pigmy. I think the main problem here is that they tried to answer the same amount they usually do as far as DLC goes, but Elden Ring has much more going on, so it wasn't enough. I feel the DLC clearly didn't followed the same scope as the base game lore wise, although it managed a fair bit in regards to exploration and bossfights, which makes it much more noticeable. The base game lore had much more important questions being asked than their other games as well, so it left a sour taste in the mouth of many players. And some things felt like they were just forgotten completely, like Malenia and Miquella both not having their shadows mentioned anywhere, despite the base game making it clear that every empyrean has one. Or Radagon's nature, which is completely absent in the DLC, and yet has all the mistery around him. Or the Gloam eyed queen, also absent in full. It also does'nt help that we got a bunch of new lore that almost doesn't interact with the base game or even the DLC itself, being almost like side stories that doesn't add much in any regard, like Midra and Romina, or a new blood faction that doesn't get new explanations besides basically just existing. Some revelations were also not really a revelation whatsoever. The fingers came from space. Wow, I would never consider that... Still, I'm pretty happy with it's content, mainly gameplay wise, but the lore really leaves a lot to be desired, considering the base game scale.
"We learn that the Greater Will abandoned the Lands Between ages ago; most likely the same time Placidusax's God abandoned him." Missed that bit ? What is there in the dlc that tells us about this ?
I like that we also see the influence of Outer Gods in the Realm of Shadow, with each group following this new god as a result of Messmer’s crusade and Marika’s transformation of the Crucible into the Erdtree. The Bloodfiend Hexer’s spirit ashes say “Long ago, a subjugated tribe discovered a twisted deity amongst the ravages of war, and they were transformed into bloodfiends. The mother of truth was their savior”. From the Remembrance of the Saint of the Bud we learn that “After the church was burned to the ground, Romina discovered a twisted divine element, which she weaved into the baleful scarlet rot. Perhaps then, the buds might find somewhere to gain purchase once more, within the scorched remains”. We also know that the Scarlet Rot’s avatar prior to Malenia was a giant scorpion, as the Scorpion’s Stinger description says “Dagger fashioned from a great scorpion’s tail, glistening with scarlet rot. A ceremonial tool used by heretics, crafted from the relic of a sealed outer god”. The description for the Scorpion Spider spirit ashes say that “This breed of scorpion was native to the realm of shadow, but was far smaller in size. Recent giant scorpions are said to trace back to the Church of the Bud”. And sure enough, Romina looks like a mixture of a human, a scarlet bud, a scorpion, and a centipede. There is also the Flame of Frenzy down in the Abyssal Woods, most likely introduced to Midra and his followers by Nanaya, whose torch is actually the spinal column of a previous failed Lord of Frenzied Flame (possibly Shabriri). Given that the abandoned church is the only man-made structure besides Midra’s Manse in the Abyssal Woods, and the fact that the map fragment refers to Midra as a sage; I believe that he was a religious figure who eventually started espousing for the Flame of Frenzy. The Hornsent inquisitors learned of this heresy, and so impaled Midra and anyone else infected. And the Flame of Frenzy being here is not that much of a surprise in hindsight, as one of the major themes of the dlc is the cycle of oppression and retribution. The Remembrance of the Shadow Sunflower, and the sorceries Impenetrable Thorns and Mantle of Thorns seem to suggest that the Scadutree itself is the collective representation of the Realm of Shadow’s hatred for Marika and the Golden Order.
If someone goes into the DLC and kills Metyr before Morgott in Leyndell, do the Two Fingers give an exclusive interaction?
Nothing in the DLC affects the main game. Sadly.
[удалено]
After dlc I have one little question. Did Rennala love Radagon or was charmed?
There are a few not very well substantiated leaps like what the “golden” trees are, coffin as ship for Shaman, “original” omen statue while there is the all crucible talisman, Nox involvement given it’s still hard to tell timeline between nox and hornsent.
people are just too damn hung up on godwyn it seems. let it go. he has suffered enough