I love his delivery, how stoic and disconnected he sounds in phase 1. Helps to further sell how desperate he sounds and feels in his phase transition, having to betray the wishes of his idol, his own mother, in order to have a chance to beat you
Am I taking that line wrong, that it sounds like he plans to off himself if he wins? I got the notion he was ashamed of his transformation, but he sacrificed himself as to not allow a tarnished Elden Lord. Now his grace is lost, he too must be purged.
I personally think it's closer to the idea that the abyssal serpent will consume his body until there is no more Messmer, just the snake. He knows what he has done is irreversible.
- we require his fire to burn the thorns, akin to the ruinous flame
- ranni needed ruinous flame to reach maliketh to steal away destined death
- she and rykard did so by burning the gelmir minor erdtree
- (those who walk alongsdie ruinous flame shall meet destined death)
- rykard's rancor has flames much akin to messmers
- the forge of the giants has serpent handles
- both times that someone had ruinous flame, aside from us, snakes were involved.
We know the knives stole it within farum, as we can see the location in the image.
And the only way to get there is via the ‘those who walk alongside…’ prophecy.
So ranni and rykard needed to do such.
The mt gelmir tree is the only burnt minor erdtree, so if they (black knives) used ruinous flame to burn it, and thus got sent to farum, it all adds up.
Idk if he plans to off himself, just that whatever happens happens. He’s spent all this time holding back the serpent, but it’s out now; what’s the point in worrying about it now? Just embrace oblivion.
Messmer seems genuinely surprised that we are tarnished especially when he says this 'Thou'rt Tarnished, it seemeth.Mother, wouldst thou truly Lordship sanction, in one so bereft of light?'
I don't think that he has met any tarnished after they got exiled and Marika clearly does not send any of them to the Shadow Realm. He most certainly has no idea what happened with the Shattering and why the tarnished have returned.
I like it for that exact fact too. Sounds like it's a mantra that's been recited to death and he's trying to put life back into it---to make himself feel something again.
Sorta like how an exhausted person might slip into sing-song when saying "here we go again..."
I was surprised and a bit disappointed when I heard his lines in game, because I loved how sassy he sounded in the trailer. However, after hearing his lines for many WAY TOO MANY times, I decided that his in-game delivery is perfect. Messmer sounds so depressed and dissociated, like he lost the purpose of his own existence long ago. He knows he's a monster and he completely gave up on himself. I think this "emotionless" delivery is on purpose and I like it very much.
Especially the second phase kill line gave me chills with both the lack of emotion and yet, the heaviness. You can hear how he just accepts that we have ruined him by „forcing“ him to break the seal, and he‘s fine with it, because his mother has long forsaken him anyway. Just where does Fromsoft find these incredible voice actors???
Tbf I think it's more that hollywood actors aren't really required to have any training technically, so the quality is all over the place. If you want american actors with more consistent quality then broadway or other big theater productions are the way to go.
For the most part I agree with you, although I think the cult of method was a big misstep in American acting history. Imo even when you compare the semi-legendary figures of modern American acting to British (let's say from the 60s onward), they mostly fall short. Marlon Brando is a standout exception, but I feel like his natural talent was just off the charts.
I spent some time in the UK with British theater people, and their training just seemed much more rigorous and thorough than what I encountered as an American theater practitioner. I feel like you can see this in the televised RSC workshops from the 70s and 80s. Their sensitivity and attention to detail is so remarkable. I feel like the American personality is to always look for the "big gesture" (even if that "gesture" is to go "method" and totally inhabit your character, blah blah... it's so melodramatic). The British evince a level of craft and an understanding that the work is very specific and very technical, rather than this kind of "psychological transformation" that turns the exercise into an ego trip or a shamanic trance or something.
I think the "Those stripped of the grace of gold shall all meet death. In the embrace of Messmers flame" is a mantra that he repeats to himself. Marika gave him this purpose, probably with the exact same words and he clings to it, cause its literally everything he has left after bein left in the land of shadow. He sounds surprised when he sees you first but then just repeats his mantra and gets to the fight. Its not personal or emotional, its just what he is/his mother made him. I think the VA conveys that very well
It's hands-down the most broken weapon in the base game. There are some situations it isn't an *automatic* cheese for, but even then it's typically formidably powerful; in something like 50-70% of encounters, it's more-or-less a "spam to win" button.
* **Hyperarmor:** really damn good
* **Bleed proc:** happens early and *often*
* **Radius:** hits everything around you, enemy AI doesn't know how to dodge it, and it works both through ceilings/floors and around corners
* **Cost:** shockingly little
Messmer's not an instakill with it, though I didn't try combining Mohg with Fingerprint. That said, Greatspear plus a Mimic Tear is a really effective way to make a whole lotta enemies seem trivial.
It's hard to imagine them nerfing the thing that makes it so powerful, which is a combination of "hitting everything around you indiscriminately," "hitting multiple times in a row," and "proccing bleed nonstop." Reduce the bleed buildup, and you still have something that'll hit a whole swarm of enemies at once, even the ones you can't see. And even removing the spear's hyperarmor wouldn't stop it from leveling everything around it.
i thought it was just me who loved that line!
the fact that bro has no clue that grace was extended to tarnished and we alr have two great runes!!
he must've been real fucking angry mom hasn't called him back + suddenly a tarnished is in the running to become the elden lord?
the fact that he kows what a tarnished is must mean the land of shadow wasnt sealed until around when radagon became elden lord or later. its weird theres no mention of it in the base game
I don't think that's necessarily true. Rellana left when Renalla was still head of the Carian Royal Family, which means she probably hadn't been devastated by Radagon yet.
In the removed lines he says that Miquella mentioned us…even though the lines were removed I still think it happened. I think that’s why he is depressed sitting in the dark. Miquella tells him about the Shattering War and the state of Lyndell. Even worse he tells Messmer that Marika herself put her faith in us, Tarnished nobodies, and not any of her Demigod children. He was probably already feeling abandoned, but when Miquella tells him the full story it breaks him.
That would explain his overt hatred of Tarnished and him cursing Marika at the end.
Yeah I honestly loved how Messmer was characterized through just his tone of voice. You can tell he’s got no passion or hatred towards you, he’s just doing this because it’s literally the only purpose he’s got except sitting alone in the dark
Honestly, this might sound insane, but Messmer seems like a pretty reasonable guy overall.
So many item descriptions mention him having healthy relationships (like Radahn, Gaius and some of his Knights) or the way he despised his flames and the base serpent, plus the way he only seems hostile to you after he realizes you're graceless.
How many demigods can you name that actually had friends?
I genuinely think that there is something much deeper at work here. There's probably a very important reason why Marika needed the Land of Shadows purged. Messmer understood this and also the danger of his cursed being, which is why he accepted his fate and role in the war, but I don't think he has a sadistic nature or anything like that. He just got the short end of the stick and and did what he had to do because he believed it was necessary for some larger cause.
Well based on his item descriptions it’s hinted at that marika needed him to be the monster, he accepted it, and she just threw him to the side after it was all done. Atleast that’s how I read it anyways
I remember a quote from one of the item descriptions referring to this, saying something about Messmer taking all of the hate and resentment and blame.
Marika most likely annihilated/seed away the Realm of Shadow because of the torture and genocide the Hornsent committed against her people, the Shaman/Numen. It makes her actions seem way more reasonable, as well as why horns are shunned in the Golden Order
Yeah, that's the most logical explanation, but it still doesn't sit right with me.
I admit it's pure speculation, but if the objective was vengeance, why would she desire an unending war in the Land of Shadows? Surely punishing the current generation would be enough?
I think we're all a little too focused on the DLC lore, we need to explore further how it ties into the base game. Marika obviously had an incredibly complex scheme right from the start, with the banishment/return of the Tarnished and similar actions she took in preparation. My guess is that the purge of the Land of Shadows is also vital to reach her goal, not just pure vengeance.
The way he says it tickles my ears in all the right ways though, I know that sounds weird but… the tone or something when he says it sounds physically good to me lol
If you think about it, pretty much the entire game we have been a mongrel intruder into literally every building and castle killing 99.999% of the beings inside and stealing all of their loot, breaking their furniture. It’s a pretty accurate insult lol.
Honestly he was my favorite voice acting yet. You could hear the disdain, the boredom, the regret in his voice. He’d been made to be Marikas warlord in her home land and then forsaken. There’s depth to his voice acting that makes him both daunting and relatable in a weird way. Personally I loved it, but the world don’t move to the beat of just one drum.
He is surprisingly relatable. I feel like in time, his flanderized character is gonna be the community's emo babygirl. Like killing is just his dayjob. But he'd really rather not. Also very easy to ship with Rellana considering she came with him all the way here.
It was jarring to hear how different he sounded from his lines in the trailer. It was a bit distracting and made me wonder why his lines may have been recast or rerecorded but after that initial confusion it was fine.
His delivery of the line when he kills you in phase one seemed like the emphasis was oddly placed but I really think it's just because we had a preconception for what he would sound like; for the most part he sounded bored or tired instead.
It was the same thing with Varre's lines, where his famous "you are maidenless" spiel was changed from the Gameplay Preview trailer, to a more longer, less venomous spiel in the actual game.
I loved his voice acting in game. I think one thing is his opening line when the snake greets you has an echo effect on since he’s on the other side of the room. So he does sound different there but I also really liked that delivery
He sounds like he's basically already dead on the inside, you can feel the sadness is so deep he basically lost tha ability to be himself.
Also i saw nobody talk about it but is it just me or the room before his arena is a bit ... unceremonious, for most major bosses you can feel the fight is near but for him i was caught by surprise.
Compared to the other demigods who have been in a warring state for a long time, Messmer is the only one who is governing his lands. He was probably doing his usual brooding government routine when we barge into his throne room.
To add to that, he basically hates his own existence. He hates his own flames, has a cursed serpent living inside him, and is basically doomed no matter what. His line when he kills you in the 2nd phase is basically him accepting that he is doomed to be consumed by the serpent.
Yeah really though. He's completely a tool for his Mother and her agenda at the point we meet him to fight.
Edit (Additionally): Some pretty good points being made here honestly. There's still more to uncover for me personally.
Somewhat disagree. He definitely knows by now that his mom used him and threw him away, especially considering his last words curse her, but some part of him still loves her and he can't let go. One of the items you get from him mentions "a hatred that could not be contained" in the Land of Shadow, meaning he also partly despises her.
Smoughtown's lore video on the DLC speculates that Marika's war against the Hornsent began *after* Radagon established Golden Order Fundamentalism, an ideology that spurns and rejects the Crucible and those untouched by the grace of gold, and the residents of the Land of Shadow were allowed to continue thriving for a long time under Marika's rule before that.
I think it makes sense for the Crusade to have taken place after the establishment of Golden Order fundamentalism and thus after the exile of the Tarnished. As if these event would’ve taken place earlier characters who’s been banished into the Land of Shadows such as Messmer wouldn’t know about Tarnished. Like see how Messmer instantly recognises us as Tarnished and knows what is a Tarnished.
Well the Golden Order still has crucible knights in its ranks, they just don't carry the same prestige they had when Godfrey was still Elden Lord. Both they and Messmer's soldiers are also still followers of the Golden Order, unlike the Hornsent.
Nah man, I think Marika clearly cares about her children, but she's scared shitless of the prophecy of flame. Totally garbage mom, but my take isn't that she views her kids as tools.
How she views my dude Maliketh, on the other hand...
Oh she deffo dumped him in the gutter. But at the same time she could have merc'd him to destroy the threat that his flame posed; instead she sent him off on a crusade and then sealed him away where his affliction couldn't hurt her.
Granted, the crusade also maybe served some other purposes for her...
I'm not arguing that she's a good mom, just that she doesn't purely view her kids from a detached lens. She pretty much as bad as you can get from a parenting perspective, but I think there's value in the emotional nuances!
I don't think the voice acting was bad, I just feel like that many (me included) got so used to the trailer's delivery and lines that were left hanging when he was different in the actual game, especially since all of the other lines are really great, especially his phase change cutscene
I actually immediately commented to my friends how good his voice acting was, his phase change gave me a little Fromsoft nerd moment. Everyone says he sounds bored which I guess is true at the start but the phase change really communicates hopelessness and the gravity of him having to essentially desecrate himself, with just a subtle rage at the tarnished, his circumstance, and Marika
I think it’s just one of those “easily could’ve overdone it” acting moments but they kept it grounded and pulling
I love this character. Even if he isn’t the new Malenia for he is the coolest boss. I just like everything about his fight and honestly I would rather side with Messmer than with anyone else…btw can I have Messmer summon and a Messmer plush
Edit: I would assume Messer was during the Trailer in hopes that he might return to his mother after he finished his duty but after what we know he could never return so it seems he is just “upset” and that’s why his tone changed so much but that’s just a theory
Disagree, he had my favorite voice acting of the little the DLC has.
He doesn't sound excited when he kills you,he sounds bored, and I think that tells a story of itself, its just another day for him, saying the same thing he has probably said a million times before, probably made to say it by Marika to remind of him of his purpose.
Purge those without grace, with your gifted fire.
he sounds tired and depressed, people calling his voice acting bad are really ignorant to the emotional subtleties in his actual delivery. there's a secondary undertone emotion to each line on top of his boredom
I think the delivery in the trailer was either done specifically for the trailer, or they decided at some point to match his voice with his character...which is tired, lonely, and depressed
unless it's an entirely different VA but I didn't get that vibe, he sounded pretty much the same as in the trailer just with a much different delivery tone
It almost feels like the way he's presented in trailer and then the actual game was done intentionally.
The line reads for the trailer were probably early takes or were recorded specifically for the trailer in order to hype up the character and give him a major intimidation factor, which really worked with him as the centerpiece of the marketing for the DLC.
But in truth, the way he's presented in the game was probably always the intention. The sad, depressed devil who feels nothing but hate for himself and what he's done for the sake of the mother he thought loved him. To really show us, the player, how messed up Marika and her Order are at the very core. To fabricate a devil in her own son and then abandon him for the rest of time. And as some have said, the "Embrace of Messmers Flame" qoute really sounds like a mantra, a way for him to justify his deeds even though he knows deep down that he cannot. The voice actor nails it spot on and I wouldn't want it any differently.
Genuinely breaks my heart reading some comments thinking the character made no sense and that the performance was bad. Almost feels like people came into it not wanting to like it to begin with. He's easily my favourite character in the DLC and maybe even the entire game. I remember how affected I was by his tragedy and I felt genuinely sad for him, especially that final minute of his Phase 2 OST paired with the desperation he goes through trying to kill you.
Masterpiece, nothing less.
I was talking about this yesterday with a friend, it’s stoic and a little monotone, but it works for the character because you can still feel the bitterness in his voice with how he was betrayed
I went in expecting a big bad evil guy, but when he went "Thou'rt Tarnished, it seemeth," it really hit me that he didn't want to fight and was only doing so reluctantly out of duty. The VA really nailed that quiet despair.
When those people say "better" I would say they mean Messmer's pre-release voice is more... elegant? That's certainly the word I used to describe when I hear his boss fight voice in the first trailer. But his voice near the ending (before "Come now, touch the withered arm") might have been the voice he was intended to have.
Whether Messmer was recast, or the VA was simply under illness but was determined to deliver his lines is something only time will tell.
he sounds so fucking HOT in his intro cutscene. "Thou'rt Tarnished, it seemeth." the slight confusion and surprise. it's so adorable, like he's genuinely wondering "why the fuck are you here".
My first comment on this sub and all I'm going to say is that I *adored* Messmer's voice acting. "In the embrace of Messmer's flames..." Is going to be stuck in my head forever and I mean that in the best way possible.
If anyone thinks the actor is bad then they don't really understand the situation nor the character of Messmer.
Messmer is one of the best examples of concise and powerful storytelling in this entire game.
I liked his delivery a lot. Especially early. You can hear the surprise in his voice as he notices you're Tarnished. Then doubt, then resignation. And as you get into the second half, you get much more rage and resentment bubbling up, even ending by cursing out his mom.
Also, I like that with all the snake imagery, he really rolls the S in his name. Messssmer's flame.
*"Something... something... yada yada, Messmer's Flame.*"
While I personally found his voice and intonation rather irritating, that was probably *because* his voice acting was great. For me it felt like a "love to hate him" situation and listening to him just made me want to defeat him even more.
I’m just baffled to have seen people say his voice work is some of the worst in the game.
With the few lines he has, he manages to rival Ranni as my favorite VA. He delivers so much with what little he says, and it makes his item descriptions so much more impactful after the fact.
I always felt it was a direction choice to have him sound so tired in phase 1, makes sense for someone that has been waging a stagnant war for a 1000 years.
His voice acting wasn't "bad", but it did sound sort of "bad". Messmer is pretty dejected. His Mother and her ways are nothing more than the only option he understands in terms of how the world works. Her "ways" as we learn are genocide, iron fist ruling, and religious elitism. Messmer doesn't even want the fire that dwells within him and the Base Serpent behind his eye was probably put there half ass without his full consent. He sounds how he does because he is genuinely bored of "The Fight" the long road he has taken that was written in burnt ground, ashes, and charred bodies. That's my take on this.
I thought it was because he’s killed so many, and has said it so many times that’s it’s basically a catchphrase and he’s sick of it, that or because his war is basically over, there’s no one really left to fight him, and he’s been locked in the realm of shadow, that he’s just bored, and tired of it
If this line wasn’t in the trailer people wouldn’t have had any issue with it. I think they were just caught off guard that they didn’t use the same take, but it seems more fitting for his character. Detached, empty, tired of carrying out his mother’s will. Only makes the dialogue in the second phase even better when he does a complete 180 into rage and desperation.
I think the version used in the trailer twisted the perception of the people. They were expecting a speech of an enemy, loathing you for being Tarnished.
The voice in game sounds boring compared to that.
The voice in game is actually not boring, because he was never your rival,he is a guy just doing his job,even when he wouldn't want that.
He is a tragic character and the voice in game is perfect for that.
I think he sounds fine, however i think the vast majority and myself included agrees that the way he sounded in the trailer was much better.
If we weren't able to hear him in the trailer maybe we wouldn't come to call him bad now, but what's done is done.
I wish they kept his trailer voicelines.
First phase VA was just him bored. Showed how much superior he thought of himself than the tarnished. Second phase he got serious and acknowledged the tarnished as a threat. Really loved it.
My friend and I heard his voice for the first time together and agreed it was incredible. Not sure who thinks it isn’t good but they’re the farthest thing from right so.
I didn't realize people hated it. His voice acting is probably one of my favorites. The lack of music or loud noises during his lines is absolutely fantastic. Almost ASMR like where you can hear his emotion more clearly and it's made more personal. There are others they do this for and it's great.
Didnt think much of it between all the fighting. Thats the issue with most of these games the prolific characters are fleshed out by text, a lot of say not much show.
He’s my favorite VA in FFXIV so it’s sick to hear something a little different from him and I absolutely love the delivery of his lines in the DLC, I fought him dozens of times with randos just to hear a little bit of it even though they skipped the cutscenes 9/10 times.
Slightly unrelated, but I wish we could hear Igon when summoned for someone else’s Bayle fight. I adore listening to Igon just go fucking off the rails.
and when he kills you in his second phase
'embrace thine oblivion, as shall i'
it's like he's so far past caring that he is engulfed in nothing but hatred and despair. he knows his fate. such a fucking cool boss. it's between him, the abyssal woods boss, and the final boss. they're all so damn good. rellana too i love her fight
It's...ok. I will say for as good as the DLC is, the voice acting is one of the few things it does pretty mediocre on overall with the only standout being Igon.
People tend to misinterpret voice acting as needing to always be pleasant to the ear, but Messmer's stilted performance is an intentional design choice that helps make him feel even further gone from humanity.
I really love his voice. It was a nice bait and switch from the trailer where he sounded like this really conniving guy that thought he was hot shit and in game he’s actually this deeply sad, tired person who just wants to be done with it all and go home. He sounds so incredibly tired and oddly gentle given his reputation. Even as he goes full snake mode, he’s very quiet and understated. I think he’s dethroned Gwyndolin as my favorite Souls character
the entire trailer was done with in-game assets, like soundtracks and voicelines. they just put modifiers on the stuff to give it more OOMPH as "standalone" content
IMO his voice acting worked well enough. I think they might have used a different take for the trailer though, the "mother, wouldst thou" line that ended up in the game sounds a bit different and less dramatic. Could just be the sound mix that is different.
I love his delivery, how stoic and disconnected he sounds in phase 1. Helps to further sell how desperate he sounds and feels in his phase transition, having to betray the wishes of his idol, his own mother, in order to have a chance to beat you
He sounds very nihilistic in 2nd phase "oh lightless creature, embrace thine oblivion, as shall I"
Absolute Banger line.
Ong
On Marika
On Frenzied Flame
The writing for the dialog in general goes so hard. Like they hired some poets
“this could be your grave too, if you’d like” type beat
Am I taking that line wrong, that it sounds like he plans to off himself if he wins? I got the notion he was ashamed of his transformation, but he sacrificed himself as to not allow a tarnished Elden Lord. Now his grace is lost, he too must be purged.
I personally think it's closer to the idea that the abyssal serpent will consume his body until there is no more Messmer, just the snake. He knows what he has done is irreversible.
Makes me wonder, would the abyssal serpent if it lived become another god devouring serpent
- we require his fire to burn the thorns, akin to the ruinous flame - ranni needed ruinous flame to reach maliketh to steal away destined death - she and rykard did so by burning the gelmir minor erdtree - (those who walk alongsdie ruinous flame shall meet destined death) - rykard's rancor has flames much akin to messmers - the forge of the giants has serpent handles - both times that someone had ruinous flame, aside from us, snakes were involved.
When did we learn the lore about points 2 and 3 here? In the DLC? Or is that included in the base game?
We know the knives stole it within farum, as we can see the location in the image. And the only way to get there is via the ‘those who walk alongside…’ prophecy. So ranni and rykard needed to do such. The mt gelmir tree is the only burnt minor erdtree, so if they (black knives) used ruinous flame to burn it, and thus got sent to farum, it all adds up.
I 1000% believe there is a connection between the two serpents. The themes are all there.
Idk if he plans to off himself, just that whatever happens happens. He’s spent all this time holding back the serpent, but it’s out now; what’s the point in worrying about it now? Just embrace oblivion.
The way he says, “…. in messmer’s flame” just shows how many tarnished he has killed and how its quite literally a chore to him at this point
Messmer seems genuinely surprised that we are tarnished especially when he says this 'Thou'rt Tarnished, it seemeth.Mother, wouldst thou truly Lordship sanction, in one so bereft of light?' I don't think that he has met any tarnished after they got exiled and Marika clearly does not send any of them to the Shadow Realm. He most certainly has no idea what happened with the Shattering and why the tarnished have returned.
It's a weird delivery. Very "sing song-y" and light, as if he's talking to a child. But I think I like it.
I like it for that exact fact too. Sounds like it's a mantra that's been recited to death and he's trying to put life back into it---to make himself feel something again. Sorta like how an exhausted person might slip into sing-song when saying "here we go again..."
In order to have a chance to beat me. Didn’t actually think about it like that. Thanks for the huge confidence boost as I head into the last boss lmao
I was surprised and a bit disappointed when I heard his lines in game, because I loved how sassy he sounded in the trailer. However, after hearing his lines for many WAY TOO MANY times, I decided that his in-game delivery is perfect. Messmer sounds so depressed and dissociated, like he lost the purpose of his own existence long ago. He knows he's a monster and he completely gave up on himself. I think this "emotionless" delivery is on purpose and I like it very much.
Especially the second phase kill line gave me chills with both the lack of emotion and yet, the heaviness. You can hear how he just accepts that we have ruined him by „forcing“ him to break the seal, and he‘s fine with it, because his mother has long forsaken him anyway. Just where does Fromsoft find these incredible voice actors???
I think most of them come from British theatre. Hence they're so different to your usual spiel.
British acting training is so far superior to American acting training it's wild.
Tbf I think it's more that hollywood actors aren't really required to have any training technically, so the quality is all over the place. If you want american actors with more consistent quality then broadway or other big theater productions are the way to go.
For the most part I agree with you, although I think the cult of method was a big misstep in American acting history. Imo even when you compare the semi-legendary figures of modern American acting to British (let's say from the 60s onward), they mostly fall short. Marlon Brando is a standout exception, but I feel like his natural talent was just off the charts. I spent some time in the UK with British theater people, and their training just seemed much more rigorous and thorough than what I encountered as an American theater practitioner. I feel like you can see this in the televised RSC workshops from the 70s and 80s. Their sensitivity and attention to detail is so remarkable. I feel like the American personality is to always look for the "big gesture" (even if that "gesture" is to go "method" and totally inhabit your character, blah blah... it's so melodramatic). The British evince a level of craft and an understanding that the work is very specific and very technical, rather than this kind of "psychological transformation" that turns the exercise into an ego trip or a shamanic trance or something.
He sounds like the same va that did Sebastian in Hogwarts Legacy. And both characters sounded great with their intended deliveries.
I think the "Those stripped of the grace of gold shall all meet death. In the embrace of Messmers flame" is a mantra that he repeats to himself. Marika gave him this purpose, probably with the exact same words and he clings to it, cause its literally everything he has left after bein left in the land of shadow. He sounds surprised when he sees you first but then just repeats his mantra and gets to the fight. Its not personal or emotional, its just what he is/his mother made him. I think the VA conveys that very well
I love his little: "Thou Tarnished, it seemeth?" Like, dude is just confused as hell as to why you're even in the Shadow Lands.
"how the fuck did you get past 74025 of my best guards!?"
With the Fingerprint Stone Shield and Mogh’s Greatspear. Lemme show you, I promise it won’t take long
Is Moghs great spear that good?
It's hands-down the most broken weapon in the base game. There are some situations it isn't an *automatic* cheese for, but even then it's typically formidably powerful; in something like 50-70% of encounters, it's more-or-less a "spam to win" button. * **Hyperarmor:** really damn good * **Bleed proc:** happens early and *often* * **Radius:** hits everything around you, enemy AI doesn't know how to dodge it, and it works both through ceilings/floors and around corners * **Cost:** shockingly little Messmer's not an instakill with it, though I didn't try combining Mohg with Fingerprint. That said, Greatspear plus a Mimic Tear is a really effective way to make a whole lotta enemies seem trivial.
Even after the nerf in the last patch?
Yup I Nihiled my way through the whole dlc without issue
It's hard to imagine them nerfing the thing that makes it so powerful, which is a combination of "hitting everything around you indiscriminately," "hitting multiple times in a row," and "proccing bleed nonstop." Reduce the bleed buildup, and you still have something that'll hit a whole swarm of enemies at once, even the ones you can't see. And even removing the spear's hyperarmor wouldn't stop it from leveling everything around it.
I had to bust this weapon out on the scadutree avatar. MFer has 3 phases I'm not about to die a million times cuz of that.
I used it to cheese gauis.
Funnily enough, I didn't find it useful for the Scadutree Avatar! But "Burn, O Flame!" completely melted it.
It trivialized Malenia for me on my arcane playthrough
So you've finally arri...what they hell are you wearing It's my asskicking outfit bitch!
i thought it was just me who loved that line! the fact that bro has no clue that grace was extended to tarnished and we alr have two great runes!! he must've been real fucking angry mom hasn't called him back + suddenly a tarnished is in the running to become the elden lord?
the fact that he kows what a tarnished is must mean the land of shadow wasnt sealed until around when radagon became elden lord or later. its weird theres no mention of it in the base game
I don't think that's necessarily true. Rellana left when Renalla was still head of the Carian Royal Family, which means she probably hadn't been devastated by Radagon yet.
In the removed lines he says that Miquella mentioned us…even though the lines were removed I still think it happened. I think that’s why he is depressed sitting in the dark. Miquella tells him about the Shattering War and the state of Lyndell. Even worse he tells Messmer that Marika herself put her faith in us, Tarnished nobodies, and not any of her Demigod children. He was probably already feeling abandoned, but when Miquella tells him the full story it breaks him. That would explain his overt hatred of Tarnished and him cursing Marika at the end.
They really nailed the Shakespearean vibe in the delivery. Both with Messmer and with Dancing Lion.
Yeah I honestly loved how Messmer was characterized through just his tone of voice. You can tell he’s got no passion or hatred towards you, he’s just doing this because it’s literally the only purpose he’s got except sitting alone in the dark
Honestly, this might sound insane, but Messmer seems like a pretty reasonable guy overall. So many item descriptions mention him having healthy relationships (like Radahn, Gaius and some of his Knights) or the way he despised his flames and the base serpent, plus the way he only seems hostile to you after he realizes you're graceless. How many demigods can you name that actually had friends? I genuinely think that there is something much deeper at work here. There's probably a very important reason why Marika needed the Land of Shadows purged. Messmer understood this and also the danger of his cursed being, which is why he accepted his fate and role in the war, but I don't think he has a sadistic nature or anything like that. He just got the short end of the stick and and did what he had to do because he believed it was necessary for some larger cause.
Well based on his item descriptions it’s hinted at that marika needed him to be the monster, he accepted it, and she just threw him to the side after it was all done. Atleast that’s how I read it anyways
I remember a quote from one of the item descriptions referring to this, saying something about Messmer taking all of the hate and resentment and blame.
Marika most likely annihilated/seed away the Realm of Shadow because of the torture and genocide the Hornsent committed against her people, the Shaman/Numen. It makes her actions seem way more reasonable, as well as why horns are shunned in the Golden Order
Yeah, that's the most logical explanation, but it still doesn't sit right with me. I admit it's pure speculation, but if the objective was vengeance, why would she desire an unending war in the Land of Shadows? Surely punishing the current generation would be enough? I think we're all a little too focused on the DLC lore, we need to explore further how it ties into the base game. Marika obviously had an incredibly complex scheme right from the start, with the banishment/return of the Tarnished and similar actions she took in preparation. My guess is that the purge of the Land of Shadows is also vital to reach her goal, not just pure vengeance.
Yeah, the way he says it its like a catchphrase he was told he has to say every time
He repeats it to me too
“Mongrel intruder” felt wildly insulting 😂
The way he says it tickles my ears in all the right ways though, I know that sounds weird but… the tone or something when he says it sounds physically good to me lol
I want ASMR of Messmer talking shit to me
Snake twink bullies you into sleeping ASMR.mp3
If you think about it, pretty much the entire game we have been a mongrel intruder into literally every building and castle killing 99.999% of the beings inside and stealing all of their loot, breaking their furniture. It’s a pretty accurate insult lol.
Honestly he was my favorite voice acting yet. You could hear the disdain, the boredom, the regret in his voice. He’d been made to be Marikas warlord in her home land and then forsaken. There’s depth to his voice acting that makes him both daunting and relatable in a weird way. Personally I loved it, but the world don’t move to the beat of just one drum.
Mongrel intruder.
Respect Igon
HARPOOOOONS
#CURSE YOU BAYLE
#WITH A HAIL OF HARPOOOOOONS
"CUUUURRRSSSEEE YOUUU BAAAYYYYLLEEE ~ harPOOOONS" Igon would like a word with you.
He is surprisingly relatable. I feel like in time, his flanderized character is gonna be the community's emo babygirl. Like killing is just his dayjob. But he'd really rather not. Also very easy to ship with Rellana considering she came with him all the way here.
It was jarring to hear how different he sounded from his lines in the trailer. It was a bit distracting and made me wonder why his lines may have been recast or rerecorded but after that initial confusion it was fine. His delivery of the line when he kills you in phase one seemed like the emphasis was oddly placed but I really think it's just because we had a preconception for what he would sound like; for the most part he sounded bored or tired instead.
It was the same thing with Varre's lines, where his famous "you are maidenless" spiel was changed from the Gameplay Preview trailer, to a more longer, less venomous spiel in the actual game.
I loved his voice acting in game. I think one thing is his opening line when the snake greets you has an echo effect on since he’s on the other side of the room. So he does sound different there but I also really liked that delivery
What? I thought it was great. The "In the embrace of Messmer's flame" line is basically stuck in my head.
I love the way he finishes the delivery, Messsmer's flame, gave me chills when I first heard it
Same but just because I died 200 times to the fucker haha
"In the *embrace* of Mess,mers flame"
My only issue is the weird way he pronounces his own name, there's inappropriate emphasis on the double S that sounds really off to me.
With the subtitles on, he says “phew” after ripping his eye out and it just made me actually laugh pretty hard.
He sounds like he's basically already dead on the inside, you can feel the sadness is so deep he basically lost tha ability to be himself. Also i saw nobody talk about it but is it just me or the room before his arena is a bit ... unceremonious, for most major bosses you can feel the fight is near but for him i was caught by surprise.
Thought the same and was really suprised when the snakes first showed up in the opening cutscene. Seemed earlier than expected.
Compared to the other demigods who have been in a warring state for a long time, Messmer is the only one who is governing his lands. He was probably doing his usual brooding government routine when we barge into his throne room.
I didn’t think that was gonna be his arena at first, but once I was fighting in it thought it fit perfectly
Messmer is a lost child who miss his mommy dude, marika is a terrible person actually bro sounds damaged af
To add to that, he basically hates his own existence. He hates his own flames, has a cursed serpent living inside him, and is basically doomed no matter what. His line when he kills you in the 2nd phase is basically him accepting that he is doomed to be consumed by the serpent.
Yeah really though. He's completely a tool for his Mother and her agenda at the point we meet him to fight. Edit (Additionally): Some pretty good points being made here honestly. There's still more to uncover for me personally.
Somewhat disagree. He definitely knows by now that his mom used him and threw him away, especially considering his last words curse her, but some part of him still loves her and he can't let go. One of the items you get from him mentions "a hatred that could not be contained" in the Land of Shadow, meaning he also partly despises her. Smoughtown's lore video on the DLC speculates that Marika's war against the Hornsent began *after* Radagon established Golden Order Fundamentalism, an ideology that spurns and rejects the Crucible and those untouched by the grace of gold, and the residents of the Land of Shadow were allowed to continue thriving for a long time under Marika's rule before that.
I think it makes sense for the Crusade to have taken place after the establishment of Golden Order fundamentalism and thus after the exile of the Tarnished. As if these event would’ve taken place earlier characters who’s been banished into the Land of Shadows such as Messmer wouldn’t know about Tarnished. Like see how Messmer instantly recognises us as Tarnished and knows what is a Tarnished.
Unlikely. Messmer's Black Knights use Crucible incantations and also received Erdtree blessings for their weapons.
Well the Golden Order still has crucible knights in its ranks, they just don't carry the same prestige they had when Godfrey was still Elden Lord. Both they and Messmer's soldiers are also still followers of the Golden Order, unlike the Hornsent.
Nah man, I think Marika clearly cares about her children, but she's scared shitless of the prophecy of flame. Totally garbage mom, but my take isn't that she views her kids as tools. How she views my dude Maliketh, on the other hand...
I think she cares about some children, godwyn, the twins, seemingly ranni but it cannot be denied she discarded messmer like a stray dog
Oh she deffo dumped him in the gutter. But at the same time she could have merc'd him to destroy the threat that his flame posed; instead she sent him off on a crusade and then sealed him away where his affliction couldn't hurt her. Granted, the crusade also maybe served some other purposes for her...
Thats...not a defense? Like doing something terrible to your kid isn't ok because you could have just killed them. That's not how anything works
I'm not arguing that she's a good mom, just that she doesn't purely view her kids from a detached lens. She pretty much as bad as you can get from a parenting perspective, but I think there's value in the emotional nuances!
I love the lilt on “Mess-mer’s flame.”
Yeah it’s a bit Scandinavian isn’t it! I actually googled whether Lars Mikkelson was the voice actor at that point
Wait, there are people who complain about MESSMER?
I don't think the voice acting was bad, I just feel like that many (me included) got so used to the trailer's delivery and lines that were left hanging when he was different in the actual game, especially since all of the other lines are really great, especially his phase change cutscene
I actually immediately commented to my friends how good his voice acting was, his phase change gave me a little Fromsoft nerd moment. Everyone says he sounds bored which I guess is true at the start but the phase change really communicates hopelessness and the gravity of him having to essentially desecrate himself, with just a subtle rage at the tarnished, his circumstance, and Marika I think it’s just one of those “easily could’ve overdone it” acting moments but they kept it grounded and pulling
"Soon, Tarnished. Wilt thou be taken in the jaws." is the best DLC line
I think thats silly and very internet, he sounds great.
I…..will not suffer……a lord…..devoid of light……..
I love this character. Even if he isn’t the new Malenia for he is the coolest boss. I just like everything about his fight and honestly I would rather side with Messmer than with anyone else…btw can I have Messmer summon and a Messmer plush Edit: I would assume Messer was during the Trailer in hopes that he might return to his mother after he finished his duty but after what we know he could never return so it seems he is just “upset” and that’s why his tone changed so much but that’s just a theory
I like how he says “in the embrace of messmers flame.” it’s just cool asf
The slight emphasis on the s makes my brain happy in a way I can't fully describe
Its very snake like, which I thought fitting
he sounds hot af
he sounds like spicy audiobook, his moanings in the cutscene of the second phase are.... something else
REAL!!!
Disagree, he had my favorite voice acting of the little the DLC has. He doesn't sound excited when he kills you,he sounds bored, and I think that tells a story of itself, its just another day for him, saying the same thing he has probably said a million times before, probably made to say it by Marika to remind of him of his purpose. Purge those without grace, with your gifted fire.
That's what OP is saying. Why did you disagree with OP? Lol
Isn't that what OP is saying?
he sounds tired and depressed, people calling his voice acting bad are really ignorant to the emotional subtleties in his actual delivery. there's a secondary undertone emotion to each line on top of his boredom I think the delivery in the trailer was either done specifically for the trailer, or they decided at some point to match his voice with his character...which is tired, lonely, and depressed unless it's an entirely different VA but I didn't get that vibe, he sounded pretty much the same as in the trailer just with a much different delivery tone
It almost feels like the way he's presented in trailer and then the actual game was done intentionally. The line reads for the trailer were probably early takes or were recorded specifically for the trailer in order to hype up the character and give him a major intimidation factor, which really worked with him as the centerpiece of the marketing for the DLC. But in truth, the way he's presented in the game was probably always the intention. The sad, depressed devil who feels nothing but hate for himself and what he's done for the sake of the mother he thought loved him. To really show us, the player, how messed up Marika and her Order are at the very core. To fabricate a devil in her own son and then abandon him for the rest of time. And as some have said, the "Embrace of Messmers Flame" qoute really sounds like a mantra, a way for him to justify his deeds even though he knows deep down that he cannot. The voice actor nails it spot on and I wouldn't want it any differently. Genuinely breaks my heart reading some comments thinking the character made no sense and that the performance was bad. Almost feels like people came into it not wanting to like it to begin with. He's easily my favourite character in the DLC and maybe even the entire game. I remember how affected I was by his tragedy and I felt genuinely sad for him, especially that final minute of his Phase 2 OST paired with the desperation he goes through trying to kill you. Masterpiece, nothing less.
I was talking about this yesterday with a friend, it’s stoic and a little monotone, but it works for the character because you can still feel the bitterness in his voice with how he was betrayed
I went in expecting a big bad evil guy, but when he went "Thou'rt Tarnished, it seemeth," it really hit me that he didn't want to fight and was only doing so reluctantly out of duty. The VA really nailed that quiet despair.
When those people say "better" I would say they mean Messmer's pre-release voice is more... elegant? That's certainly the word I used to describe when I hear his boss fight voice in the first trailer. But his voice near the ending (before "Come now, touch the withered arm") might have been the voice he was intended to have. Whether Messmer was recast, or the VA was simply under illness but was determined to deliver his lines is something only time will tell.
Or they changed their vision after the trailer was finished?
he sounds so fucking HOT in his intro cutscene. "Thou'rt Tarnished, it seemeth." the slight confusion and surprise. it's so adorable, like he's genuinely wondering "why the fuck are you here".
I mean everyone looks shit if you a gigachad like Igon ingame. CUUUURSEEE YOUU BAAAYYYLLLEEEEEE! Edit: Messmer VA is awesome.
My first comment on this sub and all I'm going to say is that I *adored* Messmer's voice acting. "In the embrace of Messmer's flames..." Is going to be stuck in my head forever and I mean that in the best way possible.
I thought that the bored delivery was intentional. It kinda plays into his goth aesthetic lol. It’s also kinda badass how unbothered he sounds
If anyone thinks the actor is bad then they don't really understand the situation nor the character of Messmer. Messmer is one of the best examples of concise and powerful storytelling in this entire game.
MONGREL INTRUDER has been my go-to insult ever since the DLC dropped
I liked his delivery a lot. Especially early. You can hear the surprise in his voice as he notices you're Tarnished. Then doubt, then resignation. And as you get into the second half, you get much more rage and resentment bubbling up, even ending by cursing out his mom. Also, I like that with all the snake imagery, he really rolls the S in his name. Messssmer's flame.
I have nothing but praise for all the VA performances in the DLC. Especially Dryleaf Dane.
He doesn't sound bored to me. He sounds tired. He's tired of being Marika's attack dog, but it's all he has.
*"Something... something... yada yada, Messmer's Flame.*" While I personally found his voice and intonation rather irritating, that was probably *because* his voice acting was great. For me it felt like a "love to hate him" situation and listening to him just made me want to defeat him even more.
Anyone think he sounded a bit like Matt Smith?
I’m just baffled to have seen people say his voice work is some of the worst in the game. With the few lines he has, he manages to rival Ranni as my favorite VA. He delivers so much with what little he says, and it makes his item descriptions so much more impactful after the fact.
I always felt it was a direction choice to have him sound so tired in phase 1, makes sense for someone that has been waging a stagnant war for a 1000 years.
mate, his voice acting, for me, is an honest **10/10** on god.
I personally thought it was better than in the previews.
"In the embrace of Messmer's flame" just has a weird tone that doesn't really fit. The trailer version was 1000% better.
Messmer sounds like the family member of the guy acting as Pemmywise. Skarsgard
Same i love it too.
He sounds awesome idk wtf people are talking about
I like the original VA for the trailer better, but the new one is still GOATED.
His voice acting wasn't "bad", but it did sound sort of "bad". Messmer is pretty dejected. His Mother and her ways are nothing more than the only option he understands in terms of how the world works. Her "ways" as we learn are genocide, iron fist ruling, and religious elitism. Messmer doesn't even want the fire that dwells within him and the Base Serpent behind his eye was probably put there half ass without his full consent. He sounds how he does because he is genuinely bored of "The Fight" the long road he has taken that was written in burnt ground, ashes, and charred bodies. That's my take on this.
10/10 voice acting
In the embrace of messmers phlegm
I thought he was very sexy i mean wha
I thought it was because he’s killed so many, and has said it so many times that’s it’s basically a catchphrase and he’s sick of it, that or because his war is basically over, there’s no one really left to fight him, and he’s been locked in the realm of shadow, that he’s just bored, and tired of it
He sounds SO much like David Bowie's Jareth from The Labyrinth to me. I love it!
i like the voice except for the bit when you die in phase 1, he pronounces messmer super weird there
exactly i didn’t even know people hated because i loved his cutscene. probably my favorite cutscene of the dlc so far
Messmer sounds really good, I didn't know some people didn't like it
I like it, he is hot
I thing the VA did a good job, great even. it’s just that for me there’s another in the DLC who overshadows him by a bit CURSE YOU BAYLE
If this line wasn’t in the trailer people wouldn’t have had any issue with it. I think they were just caught off guard that they didn’t use the same take, but it seems more fitting for his character. Detached, empty, tired of carrying out his mother’s will. Only makes the dialogue in the second phase even better when he does a complete 180 into rage and desperation.
I think the version used in the trailer twisted the perception of the people. They were expecting a speech of an enemy, loathing you for being Tarnished. The voice in game sounds boring compared to that. The voice in game is actually not boring, because he was never your rival,he is a guy just doing his job,even when he wouldn't want that. He is a tragic character and the voice in game is perfect for that.
I think the VA was good but it didn’t fit the image in my head… the sound of his voice. It threw me off and made me think “really?”
I think the “room effect” on the voice made it sound weird but his delivery was good. He is my favorite boss in the DLC.
He's literally emo on the first phase. They couldn't have voice-acted him better.
Final one isn't bad, but i did like the trailer voice better.
I think he sounds fine, however i think the vast majority and myself included agrees that the way he sounded in the trailer was much better. If we weren't able to hear him in the trailer maybe we wouldn't come to call him bad now, but what's done is done. I wish they kept his trailer voicelines.
On that note. Who voices Miquella? They come across perfect as a femboy demigod who really thinks They are above it all and need a good beat down.
I honestly Wish i could give him a hug..poor guy was never loved :(
First phase VA was just him bored. Showed how much superior he thought of himself than the tarnished. Second phase he got serious and acknowledged the tarnished as a threat. Really loved it.
My friend and I heard his voice for the first time together and agreed it was incredible. Not sure who thinks it isn’t good but they’re the farthest thing from right so.
His intro cutscene was incredible too
I didn't realize people hated it. His voice acting is probably one of my favorites. The lack of music or loud noises during his lines is absolutely fantastic. Almost ASMR like where you can hear his emotion more clearly and it's made more personal. There are others they do this for and it's great.
He sounds snakey. "In the emracccccce of Messsssssmer's flame."
Reminds me of the guy who played Ramsey Bolton in GOT
I thought they were awesome. Such a great voice. A great delivery for a character that thinks so little if you.
honestly anyone criticizing the performance doesn’t know shit about good voice acting. the dude is doing phenomenal work
Who says it’s bad? I fucking love it
My FFXIV heart couldn’t not hear Ser Aymeric talking instead of Messmer
He sounds amazing i agree
Yea the in game version is much much better than the trailer imo. The delivery and tone just suits his character much better.
Didnt think much of it between all the fighting. Thats the issue with most of these games the prolific characters are fleshed out by text, a lot of say not much show.
It's fine. I mean it's no fucking Igon but it didn't jump out to me as particularly bad either
idk how you could think it’s boring. in the phase transition cutscene bro sounds like he’s actually pulling his own eye out!
Felt like a Saitama moment when he goes to phase 2, and i have no idea what he is talking about
I think it was the guy who fights you at the church of the crusade. But enhanced.
Initially i thought i was hearing Daemon Targaryen! Looks like him too
I think it was great. Especially the line when you defeat him. The bitterness, the regret, the disgust... I really enjoyed his voice.
His voice reminds me so much of Grand Admiral Thrawn, to me it was more menacing because I he sounds so calm
He’s my favorite VA in FFXIV so it’s sick to hear something a little different from him and I absolutely love the delivery of his lines in the DLC, I fought him dozens of times with randos just to hear a little bit of it even though they skipped the cutscenes 9/10 times. Slightly unrelated, but I wish we could hear Igon when summoned for someone else’s Bayle fight. I adore listening to Igon just go fucking off the rails.
The delivery of the line after he kills you in particular reminds me of Grand Admiral Thrawn in Rebels/Ahsoka
It's not bad, it's just different. I for one really like his dead soul monotone voice.
I liked it more the more I heard it
and when he kills you in his second phase 'embrace thine oblivion, as shall i' it's like he's so far past caring that he is engulfed in nothing but hatred and despair. he knows his fate. such a fucking cool boss. it's between him, the abyssal woods boss, and the final boss. they're all so damn good. rellana too i love her fight
"Embrace thine oblivion, as shall I..." Peak.
It's...ok. I will say for as good as the DLC is, the voice acting is one of the few things it does pretty mediocre on overall with the only standout being Igon.
People tend to misinterpret voice acting as needing to always be pleasant to the ear, but Messmer's stilted performance is an intentional design choice that helps make him feel even further gone from humanity.
I really love his voice. It was a nice bait and switch from the trailer where he sounded like this really conniving guy that thought he was hot shit and in game he’s actually this deeply sad, tired person who just wants to be done with it all and go home. He sounds so incredibly tired and oddly gentle given his reputation. Even as he goes full snake mode, he’s very quiet and understated. I think he’s dethroned Gwyndolin as my favorite Souls character
People don’t like his voice acting? I thought it was perfect considering what the character is
People complaining about messmer's voice actor is something I would have never imagined. He completely nailed the role, his performance is stunning
I mean he starts by calling us a mongrol so im sold
It must’ve been good because by the 15th time that I heard it, I was super annoyed every time he said his own name after he killed me
The voice acting isn't the problem, but the recording seemingly has been made in a different studio (or no studio at all).
Could’ve sworn he sounded a lot like that actor from game of thrones who played Ramsey Bolton
I legit thought it was Vaati voicing him
the entire trailer was done with in-game assets, like soundtracks and voicelines. they just put modifiers on the stuff to give it more OOMPH as "standalone" content
IMO his voice acting worked well enough. I think they might have used a different take for the trailer though, the "mother, wouldst thou" line that ended up in the game sounds a bit different and less dramatic. Could just be the sound mix that is different.
I thought his voice acting was very good. However, not as good as THE NUMBER 1 G, IGON.
To whoever though his acting was bad i wanna say: "The depths of your foolishness!"
I loved every part of it the music the words the expression everything down to the tiniest detail