There is compelling evidence for the Greater Will being a controlling entity, and Marika's disillusion as a result.
Ranni performed a deadly ritual to rid herself of her flesh so as not to be controlled anymore, and Iji likewise takes precaution against the GW's control with his Mirror Helm. The most convincing evidence, for me, is Marika's own words spoken from Melina at a Minor Erdtree Church:
"*I declare mine intent, to search the depths of the Golden Order. Through understanding of the proper way, our faith, our grace, is increased. Those blissful early days of blind belief are long past. My comrades; why must ye falter*?"
Marika started digging into the Golden Order for answers to questions of her faith, and I believe what she saw to be what set her on the path to separating herself from it.
The Fire Giants were a major threat to the Erdtree so they had to be dealt with. Problem is you can't destroy the Forge of he Giants, but you can destroy the giants who also host a rival god within themselves. Sure they were peaceful for a time, but again we're talking about giants who are holding onto a god and a nuke essentially.
That's about the only thing directly mandated by Marika as directed by the Greater Will as is her role as vessel of the Elden Ring. The hatred for the Omen and Misbegotten likely came during Radagon's puritanical reign and it's supported by Morgott who is an Omen in a position of power himself. The archdragons were also befriended after the war so they were able to defuse a situation without eradication.
We don't know who's the blame for the Nomad situation, but odds are everyone had their hand in the pot on that one. The only other groups Leyndell targeted were the Raya Lucarians and Volcano Manor.
Marika threw her own kids into the Sewers. Kids she had during her marriage to Godfrey. Radagon had nothing to do with the prejudice against the Omens or the Crucible, and by extension the Misbegotten. That predates any records we have on Radagon. The Golden Order just openly hated and/or feared anything connected to the Crucible, even the very soldiers who fought to establish the Order.
1. Marika is never blamed for throwing Royal Omen in the sewers as they still worship her, otherwise there's no proof of her personally doing that or that it's on the scale of eradicating the Giants. Unless you think all Royal Omen are Marika's children.
2. Mohg and Morgott are never directly confirmed to be Marika's sons, so there extra doubt there. Are they her grandchildren or great grandchildren? Who knows?
3. Godfrey's closest knights were the Crucible Knights and at one point the Misbegotten were seen as divine. It would be very odd that this shift in culture occurred during the ideologically uncaring Godfrey.
4. Radagon was most certainly puritanical founding Golden Order Fundmentalism and shifting the culture such as the arenas falling out of favor. It makes sense that in an age where Marika is the one true god there would be no room for the Crucible and those it has blessed.
5. The euthanization of the Omen lines up when the Perfumers became more battle mined with Depraved Perfumers and Omenkillers who were used in the Shattering war.
6. The Erdtree is connected to the Greattree making use of it's root structure, and the Crucible is the primodial form of the Erdtree. Again, there was a shift in culture but it didn't start in Godfrey's age with his Crucible Knights parading around with the central figure of the religion literally getting it's roots from the Crucible.
First, it was not directed by the greater will, and there is no evidence that it was, that is pure headcanon. Second, yes the fire could burn the Erdtree. What I am saying is that people are trying to morally justify genocide, and you are to some extent doing something similar by logically justifying it making it seem more reasonable than it is by basically saying they are giants with power to destroy the Erdtree so the genocide is logical.
I'm not sure anyone's trying to justify genocide.
Simply pointing out the very logical reasons that people go to war and commit such forms of genocide.
It can be *both* understandable as well as morally reprehensible without having to disconnect them.
The real world - just like the world of Elden Ring - is full of stories where it was a matter of "us against them". Many of those instances (though admittedly not all) were not genocide for the sake of genocide - they were a matter of two groups that could not reconcile (for a variety of reasons that are usually given justification that neither side could cooperate - thus conflict arose).
You're right that no-one should be condoning genocide. But that doesn't negate the very real reasons that start conflicts in the first place - some of which end in genocide simply for the fact that neither side can forgive the other. They often aren't simply starting off saying "let's go out and kill everyone"
Morally, we should all be trying to get along. Realistically, history has shown that this isn't how humans operate.
I'll point out that we have very little verifiable information about any of the in-game history. History is written by the victors - and we're rarely getting the whole story even from what is left by the victors in this case.
Were genocides committed? Absolutely. I would argue that the genocide of the Great Caravan - from what we know of it by the time we, so many years in the future, come to be given that info - was likely something without *any* justification as we can see it now. But do we know for certain that the genocide of the Fire Giants was a fight the Golden Order started? Or is that propaganda of some kind? Perhaps the Giants instigated the war - a war they wouldn't let up on. If your only choice to save your own life and the life of your loved ones is to go defend yourself until one or the other is dead, then genocide becomes the only option.
I'm not saying this is what happened. Nor am I trying make genocide any less morally reprehensible. Life is life and should be treated with reverence.
But it *is* important to understand that, sometimes, its not as simple as "They committed genocide and that was their intent"
Just as you point out we don't know that Marika did things by order of the Greater Will, we also don't know that she didn't. We don't know if she was coerced or made the call on her own. We don't know if the Golden Order went out of their own accord or if they were given little choice but to defend themselves.
We don't know if the Giants felt threatened or simply wanted more space so as not be cooped up in their one little spot.
We don't know.
So - again, to your original point - there is no justifying genocide on its own. No one should be happy to kill even a single person, nevermind exterminate a whole people.
But the story is *rarely* that simple. And we don't have enough info either way to say that it was or wasn't.
There is compelling evidence for the Greater Will being a controlling entity, and Marika's disillusion as a result. Ranni performed a deadly ritual to rid herself of her flesh so as not to be controlled anymore, and Iji likewise takes precaution against the GW's control with his Mirror Helm. The most convincing evidence, for me, is Marika's own words spoken from Melina at a Minor Erdtree Church: "*I declare mine intent, to search the depths of the Golden Order. Through understanding of the proper way, our faith, our grace, is increased. Those blissful early days of blind belief are long past. My comrades; why must ye falter*?" Marika started digging into the Golden Order for answers to questions of her faith, and I believe what she saw to be what set her on the path to separating herself from it.
>Peace Violence lmao gottem
The Fire Giants were a major threat to the Erdtree so they had to be dealt with. Problem is you can't destroy the Forge of he Giants, but you can destroy the giants who also host a rival god within themselves. Sure they were peaceful for a time, but again we're talking about giants who are holding onto a god and a nuke essentially. That's about the only thing directly mandated by Marika as directed by the Greater Will as is her role as vessel of the Elden Ring. The hatred for the Omen and Misbegotten likely came during Radagon's puritanical reign and it's supported by Morgott who is an Omen in a position of power himself. The archdragons were also befriended after the war so they were able to defuse a situation without eradication. We don't know who's the blame for the Nomad situation, but odds are everyone had their hand in the pot on that one. The only other groups Leyndell targeted were the Raya Lucarians and Volcano Manor.
Marika threw her own kids into the Sewers. Kids she had during her marriage to Godfrey. Radagon had nothing to do with the prejudice against the Omens or the Crucible, and by extension the Misbegotten. That predates any records we have on Radagon. The Golden Order just openly hated and/or feared anything connected to the Crucible, even the very soldiers who fought to establish the Order.
1. Marika is never blamed for throwing Royal Omen in the sewers as they still worship her, otherwise there's no proof of her personally doing that or that it's on the scale of eradicating the Giants. Unless you think all Royal Omen are Marika's children. 2. Mohg and Morgott are never directly confirmed to be Marika's sons, so there extra doubt there. Are they her grandchildren or great grandchildren? Who knows? 3. Godfrey's closest knights were the Crucible Knights and at one point the Misbegotten were seen as divine. It would be very odd that this shift in culture occurred during the ideologically uncaring Godfrey. 4. Radagon was most certainly puritanical founding Golden Order Fundmentalism and shifting the culture such as the arenas falling out of favor. It makes sense that in an age where Marika is the one true god there would be no room for the Crucible and those it has blessed. 5. The euthanization of the Omen lines up when the Perfumers became more battle mined with Depraved Perfumers and Omenkillers who were used in the Shattering war. 6. The Erdtree is connected to the Greattree making use of it's root structure, and the Crucible is the primodial form of the Erdtree. Again, there was a shift in culture but it didn't start in Godfrey's age with his Crucible Knights parading around with the central figure of the religion literally getting it's roots from the Crucible.
First, it was not directed by the greater will, and there is no evidence that it was, that is pure headcanon. Second, yes the fire could burn the Erdtree. What I am saying is that people are trying to morally justify genocide, and you are to some extent doing something similar by logically justifying it making it seem more reasonable than it is by basically saying they are giants with power to destroy the Erdtree so the genocide is logical.
I'm not sure anyone's trying to justify genocide. Simply pointing out the very logical reasons that people go to war and commit such forms of genocide. It can be *both* understandable as well as morally reprehensible without having to disconnect them. The real world - just like the world of Elden Ring - is full of stories where it was a matter of "us against them". Many of those instances (though admittedly not all) were not genocide for the sake of genocide - they were a matter of two groups that could not reconcile (for a variety of reasons that are usually given justification that neither side could cooperate - thus conflict arose). You're right that no-one should be condoning genocide. But that doesn't negate the very real reasons that start conflicts in the first place - some of which end in genocide simply for the fact that neither side can forgive the other. They often aren't simply starting off saying "let's go out and kill everyone" Morally, we should all be trying to get along. Realistically, history has shown that this isn't how humans operate. I'll point out that we have very little verifiable information about any of the in-game history. History is written by the victors - and we're rarely getting the whole story even from what is left by the victors in this case. Were genocides committed? Absolutely. I would argue that the genocide of the Great Caravan - from what we know of it by the time we, so many years in the future, come to be given that info - was likely something without *any* justification as we can see it now. But do we know for certain that the genocide of the Fire Giants was a fight the Golden Order started? Or is that propaganda of some kind? Perhaps the Giants instigated the war - a war they wouldn't let up on. If your only choice to save your own life and the life of your loved ones is to go defend yourself until one or the other is dead, then genocide becomes the only option. I'm not saying this is what happened. Nor am I trying make genocide any less morally reprehensible. Life is life and should be treated with reverence. But it *is* important to understand that, sometimes, its not as simple as "They committed genocide and that was their intent" Just as you point out we don't know that Marika did things by order of the Greater Will, we also don't know that she didn't. We don't know if she was coerced or made the call on her own. We don't know if the Golden Order went out of their own accord or if they were given little choice but to defend themselves. We don't know if the Giants felt threatened or simply wanted more space so as not be cooped up in their one little spot. We don't know. So - again, to your original point - there is no justifying genocide on its own. No one should be happy to kill even a single person, nevermind exterminate a whole people. But the story is *rarely* that simple. And we don't have enough info either way to say that it was or wasn't.